They Are Hot And An Incredible Athlete (with E.R. Fightmaster)

Our next guest is a pillar in the women’s sports community who’s as hilarious as they are hot. It’s actor, comedian, and musician E.R. Fightmaster, who, as co-host of the hit podcast Jockular, has dedicated a huge part of their career to increasing the visibility of women’s sports. Together, E.R. and the Packers cover all the hot debates facing women’s sports today, including how queer women treat professional athletes and inequities of men’s and women’s sports. And don’t worry, Anya gets to swoon over E.R.’s steamy role as the first non-binary character on Grey’s Anatomy.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, everyone, Welcome to these packs puck. I'm Madison Packer.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
And I'm Anya Packer. Madison and I are both former
pro hockey players. We met through hockey and fell in love,
and now we're married with two awesome toddlers, ages two
and four.

Speaker 1 (00:15):
These days, we're opening up about the chaos of our
daily lives, between the juggle of being athletes, raising kids.

Speaker 3 (00:21):
And all the messiness in between. So buckle the puck up,
because there is a lot to talk about.

Speaker 1 (00:27):
Hello Anya, Hello Madison.

Speaker 3 (00:30):
Why aren't we starting like that? Hey boo, I lost
my voice. We're in the sultry sounds of Raspyanya.

Speaker 1 (00:39):
I'm excited for our hot take today because I think
it's a good one hockey hot take.

Speaker 3 (00:48):
What is the hot take of the day? Pack?

Speaker 1 (00:50):
In recent weeks, Athlos did an event in Times Square,
so those who don't know them check them out. Founded
by Alexis o'han and rockstar wife Serena Williams, and basically
they host different events showcasing the phenomenal talent of female
track and field and they bring all these athletes in.

(01:13):
They have events like the crowds are wild, the stands
are packed. Serena Williams did an interview where she essentially
said women's sports have not arrived. They've been here and
they've been cool. People are just now paying attention. And
her spouse Alexis Ohanian, who has always been a supporter
and not just like Rob Rod cheerleader, like put his

(01:33):
money where his mouth is invested in sports. He went
on to say women's sports will succeed and we will
know that we're making progress, essentially, I'm paraphrasing. We will
know that things are trending in the right direction when
we allow female athletes to behave and we treat them
as such the equivalent of their male counterparts, and went

(01:57):
on to say, yes, they are innovators, yes they are
role models, blah blah blah, but they're also damn good athletes,
and they're creative and they're talented and they're smart, and
you can be all of it. But female athletes are
female athletes. Let's put some respect on their name.

Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yeah, I mean, you gotta say when an entire track
and field event is thrown the way that one is.

Speaker 3 (02:23):
They took over all of Times Square. They literally built
a jump track.

Speaker 2 (02:28):
She jumps Times Square. It was under the lights, it
was totally hyped. I mean everything around it was so sick.

Speaker 1 (02:36):
Oh my god, content that came out of it, it
was insane.

Speaker 2 (02:39):
And then you take all that and you say they're
doing it for the good of the next generation. No, no, no,
they're not. They're doing it because they're insane athletes. Their
bodies are absolutely monster, and they're doing things that aren't
happening like track and field is I would say the
most apples to apples to women's in the perspective that

(03:01):
people generally care every four years. It's an Olympic based
sport where people care the most during the Olympics. I
think that's always been the problem with hockey, right we
get the highest viewership in all of the Winter Olympics
during that US Star Spangled Bangle game at three o'clock
in the morning, and then we'd have a pro game
two weeks later and there'd be thirty five people there,

(03:23):
Like it's this humongous dichotomy.

Speaker 3 (03:25):
Track has the same issue. I think that plus saying.

Speaker 2 (03:30):
Let these athletes be ego, Let these athletes be nasty,
let them be all these things that we let men
be freely, let them be passionate, let them break their racket,
snap a stick, get into a fight, let them talk
bad in a press conference.

Speaker 3 (03:45):
Why don't we let that happen. That's a humongous part
of what's so fun about men's sports.

Speaker 1 (03:50):
I actually saw this thing. I'm not advocating for swearing
in public, so let me just like come out with
that first. But there was just this thing I always say,
I've read this thing. I saw it on Instagram, But
there was just a study that they did that people
that swear it didn't like classify what the swearing was.
But people that swear openly are actually more confident and

(04:11):
comfortable in themselves than people who feel like they have
to filter because like is it crass and bad?

Speaker 3 (04:16):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (04:17):
Should you do it in front of children?

Speaker 3 (04:18):
Know?

Speaker 1 (04:18):
But like are we all human and do we do it?

Speaker 3 (04:20):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (04:21):
And so like right, like at the end of the day,
it's all the same thing in a different box and
pile like this idea that women I condone women going
to like a Ruby Tuesdays and throwing down.

Speaker 3 (04:33):
No, what Ruby Tuesdays doesn't deserve that stray.

Speaker 1 (04:37):
Yeah, yeah, men shouldn't be doing it either. But when
women are on the ice and competing and someone runs
my goalie. Do I get pissed and turn around and
pop them? Yeah, I'm competitive. That streak lives within all
of us. And the idea that like you look at
the WNBA, right and all this stuff is coming out,
that it's like more physical, Like girls have the same ability,

(04:59):
we have the same But oh, by the way, most
of us who grew up in male dominated environments, because
that's what we've been taught and told is that sports
are for boys, dolls are for girls, blah blah blah,
live in this box. I grew up locker boxing boys
to earn my spot on a team and improve my equivalents. Like,
so you're growing up in that same environment, almost accelerated,
and then we all get together. We're competitive.

Speaker 2 (05:22):
You know what, though, I think the other element to
it too, The league is founded for and by women
with their best interests at heart. Right, They're not getting
an award, a medal, a thing of flowers, They're getting
a Tiffany's crafted crown. Like there are ways to infuse
femininity into the sports that we play that make them

(05:45):
feminine and soft and safe and creative and all of
the best things.

Speaker 1 (05:51):
And I think also, like spoiler alert, our next guest
er fight Master. We have a great conversation with them.
We get into an a little bit around rugby and
like objectifying the athletes, and there's like this constant back
and forth battle about objectifying female athletes and like just
let them be athletes. But I'm gonna say maybe something controversial,

(06:14):
I kind of disagree, because you do see that in
men's sports, Like you see women and girls at hockey
games with poster like that's a part of the appeal,
that's a part of the fandom. So while maybe you
see more of it, like the throwing of sex toys
on the court in the WNBA not great, you're also
seeing that happen on the men's side too a little bit.

(06:36):
But like that is not what I'm talking about. I'm
talking about like glorifying these athletes. Like I don't have
a problem with that because I think that that's a
part of their brand. Sophie Cunning him she leans hard
into that.

Speaker 2 (06:48):
I mean, Tara Woodhull Davis is quite literally a perfect
specimen everything about her body.

Speaker 3 (06:58):
She's insane, and she's an insane athlete.

Speaker 2 (07:02):
She also posts pictures like she posted a picture before
the Times Square jump of her in these like stilettos,
the legs are legging. She's wearing this little black dress
and a black trench. She's drop dead gorgeous. You've got
to appreciate that and know that that's a part of it.
But when you tune in to watch her jump, you're

(07:25):
not like, oh, you're also being like, what a sick athlete?
You can't say, Okay, tar is a great jumper. She's
got all these skills, and my daughter wants to be
like her, so she should put on pants, right, Like,
That's the line that we face in women's sports is
there's not enough balance that these athletes are also people

(07:48):
with their own opinions and lives and.

Speaker 3 (07:51):
All these things.

Speaker 2 (07:51):
They're not meant to just be like your kid's futureself.
They're just sweet ass athletes, and if your daughter sees
herself in them, that's amazing. But there's a whole other side.
And I kind of like that you talked about the
conversation that we have because I keep calling it respectfully raunchy,
but like openly putting these women on this pedestal, because

(08:12):
I think that you can do that in a completely
appropriate way and still love the sport, love the athlete.
Want the best for everybody, but be like that player
is objectively really hot, and for that reason alone, I
cheer for Seattle and then.

Speaker 3 (08:28):
I get into the sport. That's okay. Who cares agree?

Speaker 1 (08:31):
However, we could go on this topic for days. I'm
going to change it to our check in before you
go on about anyone else in a tiny black dress,
because your girl ain't your girl.

Speaker 3 (08:41):
I would love to.

Speaker 1 (08:44):
WoT wouldn't do the same thing for me? I don't
think so. With all of that, where are we at? Pack?

Speaker 3 (08:55):
I feel great? I lost my voice.

Speaker 2 (08:57):
We were coaching the kids over the weekend, so out
of there with some dubs in the pocket.

Speaker 3 (09:01):
That felt nice. I thought it was great. The kids
were having fun. We were buzzing. Our kids were there,
they got to go in a pool. I got like
an eighty seven. I feel really good. I need to
go to the gym. But I say that every single day,
and I can't be mean to myself. So I'm happy.

Speaker 1 (09:16):
You're looking good. You're looking ripped, kid, I'm like a
ninety nine. Wow?

Speaker 3 (09:22):
Is that because you slept for one hundred hours? Yes?

Speaker 1 (09:25):
I got to catch up on sleep. We did. We
were in the trenches. I love how it's just like
for listener purposes when Anya says the kids had games,
not our kids. We were thrown into the fire about
a week before the season started. There was a vacancy
with the Connecticut Junior Rangers hockey team, and we filled

(09:48):
that void because we felt badly for the kids. We
have gone on to love the job. However, it is exhausting.
We've coached five games in like fifty hours and no,
it was intense, not a lot of food, and our
kids were there. So I'm ninety nine. We're going to
coach together again this afternoon, which will be fun. Then
you're going to go to the gym. Although I do

(10:09):
owe a public apology to Anya because I kind of
wrangled her in for this weekend with the lure of, hey,
it'll be fun. We're going to be in upstate New York,
like it's so pretty this time of year, be a
little family vacation. There was no vacationing. We lived in
the ice rink.

Speaker 2 (10:25):
We didn't even sit for one meal as a family,
not one. We went to this tournament. And for everybody
who is in travel sports, so you need to appreciate
it's never enough time you're there for like forty eight
to seventy two hours and there's never enough time. Then
infuse the fact that Madison is quite literally the most

(10:46):
hands on coach in the world, which I love about you.

Speaker 3 (10:48):
I wouldn't change it in the world.

Speaker 2 (10:50):
But like having the meetings, talking to the kids, having
conversations with the college coaches, talking to the families, loading
the bus, unloading the bus, drawing the plays, redoing the things,
look at the lines, turning it over.

Speaker 3 (11:01):
In her mind, load the bumps.

Speaker 2 (11:03):
My gosh, honestly, I thought you pumped the air up
with your mouth on the bus tires.

Speaker 3 (11:07):
That's how long you were out there.

Speaker 1 (11:09):
You know.

Speaker 3 (11:09):
One of the days I was able to steal the
kids for two and a half hours and go to
the Children's museum. That's the only them time they had
all weekend.

Speaker 2 (11:18):
The rest was like play with the girlies, go to
the rink, run them up, go to the pool, all
the things that they love. We bring this huge wagon,
so wonderfold wagon, shout out to you, But we bring
a four person kid wagon that is actually the size
of a golf cart, and we just park it somewhere.

Speaker 3 (11:35):
We're going. I'm calling lines left right. We have a penalty,
we have a power play, I have a penalty.

Speaker 2 (11:39):
I look over and Harlan has completely passed out, like
mouth open, drool, my headphones half falling out of her ears.

Speaker 3 (11:47):
I'm controlling the music.

Speaker 2 (11:48):
She's listening to K pop Demon Hunters and I'm like,
this is a pump up song.

Speaker 3 (11:52):
Harlan is like dead to the world, asleep during a
hockey game. The buzzers are going off in between periods
and it's not even She's not phased sup for two hours.

Speaker 1 (12:01):
We just we threw a coaching jacket over, good for her,
and then Whale started push doing slide pushes, slagging and
like running her into the wall.

Speaker 3 (12:10):
You know, this is the life of a rink rat.
We have two.

Speaker 1 (12:14):
So that recap was to remind all moms and parents
out there that we are all just doing the same
thing and none of it is caught on video. Thank god.

Speaker 3 (12:24):
We are talking to who has become I would say
was before, but who has become my absolute number one
crush on Grey's anatomy was always by the way. But
we talked to er fight Master.

Speaker 2 (12:39):
We talked about their podcast Jocular, which is hilarious and
if anyone hasn't listened to that podcast. Once you finished
this episode, you tune in because we were just recently
on it. But all that to say, we have a
great episode coming up with R fight Master.

Speaker 3 (12:53):
We're going to tune in.

Speaker 1 (13:06):
No joke. Ear she took her shirt off for this.

Speaker 3 (13:08):
I was wearing I just just recorded. I mean that
I need to hear it. We gotta start naked. We
already have too many clothes on.

Speaker 2 (13:17):
That's how we start this podcast. Actually, everyone just gets
naked and then we've started at scratch.

Speaker 3 (13:23):
Well, hi, e are welcome to these PACs. Puck. We
are so excited to have you on you guys, I'm
so excited to be here.

Speaker 2 (13:29):
Well, this is not the first time we've spoken. We
just got to be on your podcast Jocular that you
co host with Katie, which.

Speaker 3 (13:37):
Was really fun.

Speaker 2 (13:38):
I like all things talking on nonsense, hot women, sports,
you know, insert anything there.

Speaker 1 (13:45):
So thank you.

Speaker 3 (13:46):
First of all, you gave us a little space to
be That was a really fun episode.

Speaker 2 (13:50):
It was really fun. I really enjoyed it. Naturally, this
is a sports podcast. So let's talk about the day
you and Maddy met and she sent me a bunch
of pictures and I was so jealous because you have
gone to a PETERHL game, haven't you.

Speaker 3 (14:03):
I've gone to I think a few now. I went
to a New York game where I got to drop
the puck. I can't remember the other one. But then
I went to one in Canada, and I had talked
to you guys about it, but I was like so
much more impressed at the Toronto game because of how
many people were there. New York was so nice to
have me out. It took so much to get there,

(14:25):
because per all women's sports ever, they're like, yeah, we're
gonna put it in a major city, but you're gonna
have to drive two hours outside of said city to
find the arena that's obscurely named where the women are
actually allowed to play. And then they're like, see, no
one's here, there's no audience for women's hockey. And you're like, well,
there's no one a fucking round here, no one lives here.

(14:48):
How they gonna get here? It is messed up. But
I mean I could like count on my hands the
number of people in the audience. I think they had
like moved And maybe it was that only the cameras
were only on like one side, only fill seats correct. Yes,
and then the Toronto game was so funny because it
was so packed out, but the play level was the same.

(15:09):
It was the same intensity of game. It was like,
not that New York doesn't have the skill set to
be interesting to the audience, it's that they don't have
an audience. Because all of the New Yorkers I invited,
I was like, this is the arena it's at and
everyone was like, that's so sweet. That's not New York.

Speaker 2 (15:26):
They're like, it takes longer than the hockey game to
get to and from said venue.

Speaker 3 (15:31):
One hundred percent. Yeah, so it was fun.

Speaker 1 (15:33):
Well, we appreciated you being there.

Speaker 3 (15:35):
It was still awesome. Like I found this with basketball
four years ago, like during the pandemic, when I really
was like, you know what, I really need to get
back into the WNBA, Like I haven't been doing my
due diligence as a sports fan or a feminist. So
I started trying to watch the games and it's like,
you know, you have to go through three different streaming
services to find a streaming service that you don't even

(15:55):
know the name of. It's kind of what they're doing
with the arenas. The arenas are hard to find watching
them online is hard to find. So I had seen
that the PWHL had started. It was like Brandon and
I was like, okay, fantastic. I'm not gonna make the
same mistakes. I'm going to like start watching early. I'm
gonna get in. And it was so impossible to find
the games online. I was like, what the fuck? So

(16:17):
I got to go to New York Game and I
was just so blown away, like I forgot how cool
hockey was. All of these people out there are truly
like the height of athleticism. The game moves so fast,
everyone's so strong. And then I did get to meet you,
and I have I said it before, I'll say it again.
It was like a very horny religious experience where I

(16:39):
remembered at one point in my life, I used to
be fam Yeah, you fuckers in the big pads and
you're like walking on the skates and I was like,
I felt like I was blushing. You're like it was mossy.

Speaker 2 (16:52):
Yeah, that's my superpower is I get to take off
like I always took it like a badge of honor
to wear heels into the rink. When I was playing bro,
I walk in my stilettos and I put on my
gear and I'd be like, think, I'm so tough. And
then I'd play against my wife and she'd beat the
living shit out of me, and I'd be like, yeah,
still a f M. I might look different in this
get up here, but like, nope, I'm not there yet,

(17:13):
am I.

Speaker 3 (17:14):
I would not want to play Madison in hockey? Yeah,
I think I'm good on that one. That to me
would be like you remember Jackass. My version of that
would be like getting on the ice with Madison?

Speaker 1 (17:24):
Do you know how to skate?

Speaker 3 (17:25):
That would be so generous.

Speaker 1 (17:27):
We got to teach you how to skate?

Speaker 3 (17:29):
Yeah, I want that because inevitably, and I think we
have to talk it into existence, Inevitably, we have to
have a TV show or a movie about women's hockey.
And I swear to God, if I'm not in it,
like I will, I'll boycott it. Yeah, out, I'll boycott it.

Speaker 1 (17:43):
He had a guest on our show earlier who wrote
a series all about queer hockey players. Yeah, and they're
men's hockey players. But we said that we should write
one about women's hockey players.

Speaker 2 (17:56):
Yeah, like an awful, really smart style book about women's
hockey players. I did also see you at a Connecticut
Sun basketball game a few years back.

Speaker 3 (18:07):
I remember. That's the same situation, man. Listen, it was
the same situation.

Speaker 2 (18:11):
Two and a half hours to get to from Stanford.
It's like kind of near Yukon. So I'll give it
a little bit of love, but impossible to get to.

Speaker 3 (18:18):
I saw you there. I was cult fangirl obsessed with
you there. Thank you.

Speaker 2 (18:22):
And now we've been on the same pods, we've been
hanging out. I'm obsessed because I think Jocular's kind of
carved out a really sexy, queer community of women's sports.

Speaker 3 (18:33):
I like love your co hosts like, thank you, How
did you start it? Why is it happening? Where did
it come from? In twenty twenty, we were running out
of things to put on the air for sports fans,
and of course running out of things to put on
means that they just like, haven't televised any of the
women's games. So they were like, oh, okay, fine, and
we'll give the women some airtime. And they did. And

(18:55):
it turns out that women are awesome to watch. Not
only are the women awesome to watch, but the women
are much more political than the men, and so the
women had they did their bubble, which for anybody who's
listening who's like not familiar with that, it was just
like what they were calling the WNBA bubble, where everyone
was like having to test every day so that they
could play. They weren't letting them see anybody at all,

(19:15):
and they were doing a lot of advocacy work during
the bubble. At the same time, the BLM movement was
happening in America, and so the women were stepping up
and they were walking in always with these custom T shirts.
There was a game where they walked off the court
because of some more police brutality, and then the men
did it, and the coverage was all about the men

(19:37):
doing it, but the women had been this like guiding
moral light. Of course, I think that like Katie and Tenna,
and I'm a woman in Gender studies major, and I've
played like volleyball and basketball my whole life, so I've
got a little bit of like a cross section love
of what's happening here. When that was happening, I was
just texting Katie and ten who I knew were also

(19:58):
sports fans, and we were having conversations about how women's
sports specifically, is this like intersection of all of these
things that we hate talking about specifically in America, maternity leave,
queer and transness, women being allowed to have jobs that
aren't in the home, like when we're talking about race,

(20:19):
when we're talking about income, when we're talking about being
able to have shares in the company that you're working for.
It just became infinitely fascinating to me that, like, Okay,
so if this is the hub of where we get
to talk about all these things, then we need to
throw the same cultural support behind it that we're doing
for the men. Luckily, for me, I've been able to

(20:39):
be on TV. The minute we're in the clear, I'm
going to go to as many games as possible, and
I'm gonna treat women's sports like it's a Knix game,
where like I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go with other
queer people. I'm gonna go with other queer celebrities. We're
gonna sit core side, we're gonna sit as close as
we can, we're gonna take pictures when we're there, we're
gonna meet the players, and we're gonna make it cool.

(20:59):
And I do think that we kind of were able
to do a bit of that, and now it's it's
like some resulting in this really awesome way. And there's
of course, like now you've got you know, Jason Sadekas
for example, showing up to all these games, and now
that all these male celebrities are showing up, which is
very very important to people, and that's super important. It's

(21:19):
so important to everyone that male celebrities show up for games,
which is you know, I get it, and it's also
like anathema to me. But Jackular I was like, we
have now a responsibility to fill a little bit of
the gap. There are queer people and women that have
been constantly excluded from the sports space. So let's not

(21:41):
treat it highbrow. Let's treat it like it's a gossip
website where they're going to come and they're gonna find
out which players are dating on the backstore of these people.
And we're going to treat it like a thirty for
thirty but at a gay nightclub. And I think that's
what we've done. And we've got some really loyal listeners
and I love them, and we'd like to expand, and

(22:02):
that's where we're at.

Speaker 1 (22:03):
Jogular has become like a key voice for the queer
community within women's sports, especially the fans. When the podcast
first started, was that an intention of yours or was
it more you all were just looking to have you know,
fun it and create something in a space where there
was a void? Or do you feel that and carry that?

Speaker 3 (22:23):
I have found that podcasts are not very fun and
they're incredibly difficult, and you have to do them all
the time, and especially women's sports, they're like it's like
every week and it's six different sports, and I'm constantly
learning what a try is in rugby, So I'm not
like humiliating myself in sports fans everywhere. Like it's been

(22:43):
so much work. So it has been such a deliberate
like let's fill the void because otherwise I wouldn't have
a podcast if fucking Putin put a gun to my
head and said we're going to release these nudes. Please
release the nudes. Also draw those nudes.

Speaker 2 (23:03):
I love that you guys have like the answering, the
call answering, Like you guys do a lot of fun
connection with your community in some absolutely heinous stuff comes
out of those calls.

Speaker 3 (23:12):
Kid's chaos. You Yeah, and so how.

Speaker 2 (23:14):
Much like, like, what's the most memorable moment that you've
had thus far?

Speaker 3 (23:18):
In jocular, I mean like last night we recorded an
episode where Harry, our producer, brought in the drinks that
they made for the US Open. I was not right
for like ninety percent of that episode, and we had
the most fun. We were just drinking they're called honey deuces.
We were talking about women's sports, and then we were
doing a whole episode where the fans are calle and
we're just talking to the fans for our Like I

(23:40):
love episodes like that. The episodes that I think are
hard for us because we're comedians are ones where we
really wanted to do a sport justice and like rugby
was one of them where like actually rugby requires like
a life fun, a lifetime of like paying attention to
this stuff, to be like respectful to the players, and like,
I actually don't understand what's happening. They're all holding each

(24:02):
other again, so the balls rolling backwards, no one's touching it.
I'm confused, but Scott, it is exciting and everyone is
so hot and they're having such a fun time. It's
gonna take me another year or two of watching rugby
to really appreciate all the nuance. But I can be like, well,
this English player is dating this player, and actually Canada
is coming back from the big deficit, and that's what

(24:24):
the audience seems to respond to. That's what they really
get excited about. They don't want technical from us, and
they've said as much.

Speaker 1 (24:31):
We were joking about the rinks and stadiums earlier, but like,
actually not joking, because it's so true that when the
biggest knock on women's sports is oh, no one watches,
and then you're playing in the middle of BFI, it's like, well, yeah,
like one of our rinks, we were playing in Bridgeport.
No one's hanging out in Bridgeport, and if they are,
they're not coming to a women's talking game. Yeah, but
I want your opinion as a fan and someone who's
continuing to educate themselves on all sports. It sounds like,

(24:54):
except from heavy rugby, I'm trying hard hard. What hasn't
been achieved yet that you'd like to see in the
near future.

Speaker 3 (25:01):
I actually was a little worried the minute you started
asking this, and now I'm like, I think I have
an answer for me. It's the ability to have a
rivalry without it being a conversation about race wars, and
so I'm thinking specifically about like an angel Ree Caitlin
Clark situation where we have what sports fans know is like,

(25:25):
oh my god, it's like that's crack for an audience,
Like we want so badly to have rivalries. That's what
makes sports incredible. That's why you watch a Boston Celtics game.
It's easily the heart of sports outside of like teamwork
is competition, and for some reason in women's sports, because
we're still playing all of these games about like these

(25:47):
politics of femininity. When there's a rivalry between two players,
we have to decide which one of these two is
more feminine that we're going to need to protect. And
so then when it's ever a conversation about whiteness and blackness,
when we're never going to defend the black player, we're
always going to defend the white player. And these trolls
are coming into the comments just crushing angel Rees. But

(26:07):
Caitlin Clark is exciting in part because of angel Rees,
and Angels deserves that credit. And so once we can
get beyond that and just get excited, once we stop
worrying about like whose femininity we need to preserve we
are going to have an incredible time as sports fans.

Speaker 2 (26:23):
One thousand percent. And I think as people can't rationalize
women not actually hating each other, like right, Like people
can't rationalize that women have the mental capacity to show
up on courtfield, ice, arena, whatever it is and talk
shit and then take your gear off and be like, yo,
you want to get a beer? Like we have almost

(26:46):
gone to like blows with one another and then been like.

Speaker 3 (26:49):
Heaven, how you doing. And we talked about this a
little bit on jocular too. It's like, if you.

Speaker 2 (26:54):
Can allow respectfully horny, raunchy, sexy objectification of these athletes
in a way that you would do with a man,
we do this with the men every day. I'm not
saying that we have to make women dress in a
scantily clad way, but I'm saying during the playoffs, Khalia
Copper crosses someone up and then whispers in her ear,

(27:18):
I'm sorry, that was hot. Khalia Copper is, so she's
just hot. Objectively, she's just hot. But by not being
able to open that up for the queer community to
like eat that.

Speaker 3 (27:29):
Shit up, we're not letting it sink.

Speaker 2 (27:32):
We're talking about Rugby Chocola just posted about a love
kelter proposing Mattie actually played college hockey with her. These
queer joy love moments are gateway opportunities for us to
welcome fans to like wave their freak flag a little bit,
but get really obsessed, and that's basically what we need.
We need a level of cult obsession within women's sports.

Speaker 3 (27:53):
Well, I agree, and I did a podcast with Kristin
Press and Tobin Heath. I'm obviously a big fan, and
they're incredible athletes, and you know they're beacons in the
queer community. But I could tell that I was really
shocking them when I was talking about women's soccer being
like a horn anything to watch. There was a little nervousness,
and I could see that some of the comments talked

(28:14):
about this of like, it's it's so sad when we
objectify women when they're doing this, And no, I think
there's a little bit of nuance here. I think part
of this conversation is that queer people specifically have the
ability to look at women and other queer people and

(28:35):
be able to hold two truths that they are hot
and that they are an incredible athlete. That's great at
their job. A lot of times, it's just a lack
of internalized misogyny. It's a lack of internalized homophobia. Now,
if you talk to men's sports fans, men's sports fans
know every single statistic about these men's bodies. They know

(28:58):
which uniforms they like. They know well like how high
they want the pants rolled up, and what's not acceptable,
and which off that they would wear if they were
out there and they want to look like them, and
they're buying the GQ cover with them on it, and
they're trying to buy the clothing. Okay, this is an
obsession there, but they won't admit that. Part of it
is because these dudes are hot and it's exciting for
them to watch. And it's because men have internalized homophobia

(29:19):
and they have this like true fear of like releasing
this like feminine ability to look at something and be like,
that is beautiful. Let's be as like queer people and
women fans. Let's have the ability to watch a game
and be like, this is the sexiest thing I've ever seen.
And these people deserve equal pay, these people deserve revenue sharing.
I'm going to buy the jersey. We can hold both

(29:41):
things equal, right.

Speaker 1 (29:43):
I actually love that you say that, because the internalized
homophobia and the difference between men's and women's sports, Like,
when's the last time you saw a headline of homophobic
slurs being tossed at a women's sports event. No, And
it's like what just happened with Rory McElroy, And like
it's the first thing that comes to mind as the
insult in men's sports is like, oh, this player is

(30:03):
suspended for using another homophobic slur. It's like there's something
deeper there.

Speaker 3 (30:09):
And the racism I think that comes from the men's
side of things too, Like when you look at like
the soccer side of things, the way that black players
are treated internationally, you're actually not getting that in women's
sports as much until we've accepted a wider audience and
now we have male fans and we're dealing with more
racism world at our players. And we're getting dildos thrown

(30:31):
on the court and they found that that was up.

Speaker 1 (30:34):
Dude, the dildo's on the court. We were just talking
about that.

Speaker 3 (30:37):
We don't know, gross things.

Speaker 2 (30:39):
It was so gross for a moment, it was funny
for like one single dildo to be thrown it's a
little funny, right, and then it starts to become something
that's like really really gross and also really unnecessary. But
as we expand the reach of women's sports, which hopefully
we do in droges, we open ourselves up to creating

(30:59):
more hostile, chaotic environments. But when we talk about Pride
Night specifically, it's like that one's for the gays and days,
and like, we're here, We've already been here, We're already
married to each other. I've hooked up with three people
on that team, so like I'm actually the super.

Speaker 3 (31:13):
Spreader of this Pride Night.

Speaker 2 (31:15):
So you're welcome, but it's it's hard to accept new
people into these spaces and then have them slowly take
the Jenga pieces out of the really cool tower we've built.
When you see all of that, how much hope do
you have for the purity of women's sports that we
can still be all the things that we've been, And
I think fan bases should kind of course correct, but

(31:40):
how much hope do we have and how much do
we have to like laugh through the pain.

Speaker 3 (31:43):
I have a ton of hope, and I also think
that this is a part of the growth cycle. So
it's the scales again of like some things are going
to get really bad, but that actually means that our
audience is broader. Like when actors get famous and all
of a sudden they're like, I can't go out in public,
and you're like, yeah, because your audience is broader. And
as much as somebody's like you saved my life, someone
else is like, I listened to this sound backwards and

(32:04):
I am going to kill you outside of your home.
Like fans of anything are extreme. So if we have
people that are like actively being negative in the women's
sports space, it does mean we have a bigger audience.
And I think that we already have a situation set
up where a lot of the fans that have been

(32:24):
here forever aren't doing that. They're not taking it, they
don't like it. It's like almost the inverse of those
videos of women being at a section with all men
at a game and they like start to cheer and
for some reason it just enrages men and they'll turn
around and be like, sure, oh, you don't know what
you're talking about. I feel like that's what we need

(32:45):
the butchers to be doing. Yeah, any men that's entering
a sports arena.

Speaker 1 (33:02):
Okay, Well, I selfishly have to transition our conversation because
while sports are great, I grew up obsessed with grace
to anatomy. I also was an English and creative writing major,
so I am obsessed with learning all things about what
it's like to be an actual actor. And so your

(33:23):
most notable depending who you ask, Gray's Anatomy doctor Kai,
what was the audition process?

Speaker 3 (33:30):
Like? I got a script sent to me at my
home via email, and I don't even think that it
said it was for Grey's Anatomy. It was just for
like medical drama and the name of the doctor was
different at the time. And I read the script and
I was like, I think this is Grey's Anatomy. This
reads grace. Yeah, this reads grace. And I had my

(33:52):
partner at the time helped me read the script and
we filmed it and I sent the audition say and
I got notified within like twelve hours, which just never happens,
and then I needed to be on set in two days,
so it was like being banged. It was one of
those ones where I read this script and I was
like I could do this, Like this is easy. I'm

(34:12):
not like searching for what. How am I going to
say this line. This doesn't feel right in my mouth.
I was a flirty doctor. Yeah, okay, done, I could
do that. Yeah yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:22):
Did you know at the time that you were auditioning
that the character was going to be non binary or
was that not a part of the story yet.

Speaker 3 (34:28):
I think that it is a part of the conversation
that I'm not sure that it was set in stone.
So I think that if they would have had a
butcher person audish that you see her pronouns and she
had done an incredible job, I think that the character
would have been she her. But they were looking in

(34:49):
that like butch to transmask zone, and then you're looking
at like a character description and there were no specifics
there at the time, And I feel like this is
credit to them, Like once I got hired, they were like, oh, awesome,
let's explore this, this is what we should be doing.
This is going to be the story. And then they
were really able to like blow it out and and

(35:10):
make use of it, I think in an incredible way.

Speaker 2 (35:13):
I do want to ask you a question that I
think is incredibly heavy here. How did it feel being
the sexiest doctor cast in a show with people named
make Dreamiam Mix DEENI.

Speaker 3 (35:22):
Thank you, thank you. It was so fun. There's something
about that genre which is not totally soap opera but
not ozarks. You know, it like kind of like falls
in this middle range of like high intensity acting, but
it's still like landing with a pose.

Speaker 2 (35:41):
You know.

Speaker 3 (35:42):
I'm from comedy, and it felt almost like comedy to me.
You're hitting all of these marks and you're doing it
in this heightened way. And then when I finally got
to really interact with the audience, be like, Okay, the
first episode has come out, and I'm just seeing how
excited people were. It just became so fun to then
fulfill what I understood was being enjoyed, because that's like

(36:04):
the dream, right as a queer person watching TV, is
to have somebody on the inside and munting these two
to kiss, wanting there to be a lingering look, wanting
the hand to slip over the other hand, like Katerina,
and I took so much joy in creating that for
the audience. It was so much fun.

Speaker 2 (36:22):
My real serious question in that, and I love the
way that you framed it up, is like, did you
feel a sense of pride in showcasing a non binary
person and being a non binary person just having like
a very authentic experience where somebody was like, hmm, can
I dabble here?

Speaker 3 (36:40):
Okay?

Speaker 2 (36:41):
I think I can dabble here, and then like having
this really sexy, hush hush engagement where then it becomes
like really big and important, and then going public. I
felt like you took an arc that most queer people
take in their life, and doing that through someone else's
script might be challenging, but it read really multi threat
to me as a not non binary person. Though I

(37:03):
felt very seen in those moments. Even though there'd already
been queer love on the show.

Speaker 3 (37:07):
There has already been queer love on the show, and
I think a lot of those relationships have been really important,
and there's something a little bit more like queer modern
about what was happening with Kai and Amelia, because I
think like, unfortunately this is true that the audience can
understand gay and they can understand lesbian, and so those

(37:30):
relationships on the show have been able to be like
we get this, but something about pretty non binary mask
person and this character that we think she's queer but
she's only dated men. To the eye on the show,
there was actually so much more nuance to me about
what was happening, and I think that was also a

(37:51):
little bit true for the writers, nuance that had to
be pooled apart. The best thing that the writers did
was that they didn't over expect. They just kind of
left it to the audience to be like, do you
all like that these two beings are falling in love?
We like that too. We'll get to identity later, but

(38:12):
we're liking this too. Right. In some ways, like I
think it made it a little bit more universal because
the audiences like was able to maybe see themselves through
gender instead of seeing themselves through sexuality, where they're like, oh,
I get this. Actually, I just watched.

Speaker 1 (38:27):
An interview with Kid Rock, who is not my favorite human,
but where Kid Rock was in the antithesis to all
of this. Kid Rock was like, modern television is just
getting ruined. You know. I'll be watching a show and
I'll get like three episodes in and it's like, Bam,
I'm a gay couple or like boom, a transperson. It's
so unnecessary. And I think that is such a terrible

(38:50):
and disgusting take because his perception and reasoning for not
needing to have that was so close minded and selfish,
and I think that it's such an important part of
representation in all things sports, politics, media, everything. But it's
not about making it in someone's face at all. It's
about having representation so that everyone feels included. Wouldn't it
be a great thing if we could just all educate

(39:12):
ourselves a little better? That happens through consumption of resources.

Speaker 3 (39:17):
Sis white male didn't understand. I think that the boys
are particularly hard to please because they did grow up
where like the entire I'm gonna call it discography, although
I know this is a book, the whole discography of
their existence is Catcher and the Rye. Their whole experience
is like everybody in class, the black folks, the girls,

(39:37):
everybody having a read Holden caw Field and see themselves
in Holden and the white boys get to have that experience.
But then when Alice Walker comes up and we all
have to read the color purple, they're like, oh, oh,
this is like a chailist all the time, Like they
just can't. They're not raised to have the same amount
of empathy, which is why I think when we talk
about representation, we also have to talk about frequency, because

(40:01):
it's like you're more likely to think somebody at work
because you get to see them all the time. You're
like forced to be with these people, and then over
time you're like hmm yeah, and they wore you down.
I want to have enough time with an audience that
my identity disappears to the people it needs to and

(40:22):
stay present for the audience that needs it. I did
two seasons of Grays, and in the beginning I was
getting just a lot of dms making sure that I
understand that I have a female body and that I
should kill that body. And then by the end of it,
those same people were being like, I swear to God

(40:43):
if she goes back to link, and I'm like, yeah,
that's it's crazy. Like it's like, oh, you had two
years of exposure and I became a person to you
instead of an idea. Gotcha. But now you're ready for it,
You've seen enough, you're rooting for me, haha, and you
dip out of the shop.

Speaker 2 (41:01):
But I think that that's the part that we're trying
to say is right, like exposing people even to our
own marriage, Like we had our first child and we
got some out of control messages and we are small fish, right,
like what are you doing online that this is what
you feel is necessary? And then you know to that
point like then we have another one, then we start

(41:21):
a podcast. Like then people that might not like us
have just tuned off, which is also fine. They've come
to the realization that, like we have children, we are
their parents. It's gonna be okay. And I think that
part of it has a lot of weight. That's why
I say gravity or pressure or like it takes a
lot to be told you go jump off of a bridge,

(41:44):
or go find a man to show your son a father,
and then we have to really deal with that and
then keep showing up, which is super hard no matter
how much you say, like, oh, that person's.

Speaker 3 (41:55):
An idiot, they live in their mom's basement. Like still hard, right,
that still sucks. I think because of the online nature
of our society, we have lost object permanence, where you
exist for me as long as I'm looking at your
video and being like two dudgs, no baby should have
And then I scroll and I'm like, oh my god,
look at that cat. That cat found a bunny. And

(42:16):
then I keep scrolling and there's no object primitens that
I think the internet has made us incredibly reckless. We
used to just be able to like fucking hate people
in private. Like I think that because we don't exist
to them as real people. We are these figments on
their TV screens. I can hate this couple and it
has no effect on culture, It has no effect on

(42:37):
their family life, it has no effect on their psyche
or mind that actively hating anybody, even for fun, has
an effect on everybody. Mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (42:45):
However, if you don't like me, just talk bad about
me to somebody else, Like I'll talk bad about anything
I want to my wife. The minute I take that
to that person, You're right, go touch some grass, get
yourself right with yourself, because it doesn't matter that much.

Speaker 3 (43:01):
The things I've said in private. I will have to
answer to God one day and she'll be like, you're
good girl. I get it. Hey, baby, I read those texts.
Those did suck, but you can still Clement.

Speaker 1 (43:12):
It's just like you ate with that would yeah, yeah,
that's just like disassociation. Like I feel like people forget.
It's the same thing with athletes. Being an athlete in
New York, especially on like the Yankees or the Rangers,
like you wake up every morning and even the newspapers
talking shit about you, Like they just forget that these
are people who live normal lives and are normal. They
just happen to be good at something that is on

(43:32):
a different platform than what they're good at, right, And
I think that's the huge piece that's missing.

Speaker 2 (43:37):
Can you imagine if we did that with the local CPA,
we were like, Ella's t extraport fucking sucked.

Speaker 3 (43:43):
Okay, that would kind of rule we should start doing them.

Speaker 1 (43:45):
It would actually, Yeah, what is your favorite part of
what you do? You wear a lot of hats, podcasting, producing, writing, acting.

Speaker 4 (43:52):
What's your favorite part about what you do? I love
the finished product. I love how hard it is to
make things. The finished project for me is like the
playoffs every year, you know what I mean? Like, you
play all these fucking games, you do all of this training,
you do all of these practices. It sucks, and you
enjoy those things understanding that there's a chance you will

(44:15):
win a chip. I feel that.

Speaker 3 (44:17):
Way creatively all the time. I'm like, I'm you know,
I'm sitting in my home studio right now. I've been
teaching myself how to produce, and I can feel right
now I'm at like the beginning of this season and
when my album comes out, that will be my chip experience,
That'll be my championship, and I live for that to

(44:38):
have been like I worked really hard and now this
expression of self is done. And that is the same
thing for shows. Shows are hard to make. Like as
much as I think people want to joke about like
how privileged actors are, and we are in so many ways.
Actors are there at four o'clock in the morning and
they don't live until eleven PM, and then they get

(45:00):
there at four the next day, and everybody else is
allowed to be in a bad mood that the actors
cannot be or you will get black listed and you
will not work again. When you're making a TV show,
you're just like constantly putting on a good face and
you're constantly getting there four in the fucking morning, and
you're constantly having coffee and you're constantly learning your script
and not seeing any of your people. And then the
show comes out and you're like, that was awesome. That's dope,

(45:22):
that was awesome.

Speaker 1 (45:24):
So you're a morning person, I take it, yo, I'm
a huge morning person. I love the morning. Oh my god,
I am not a morning person.

Speaker 2 (45:32):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (45:33):
Do you have a dream project or something that you've
always wanted to be a part of that you haven't
checked off yet.

Speaker 3 (45:38):
I would love to work on like a big budget series,
like in the way that I referenced Ozarks, but like
something that's on location. The theme is so clear, they've
got a massive budget for it, They're calling in fresh
faces all the time, and everyone's getting to act there
goddamn pants off every character as this incredible expression of arc.

(46:02):
That's like a very short term goal for me, and
the industry is so strange right now.

Speaker 1 (46:07):
You know.

Speaker 3 (46:07):
I went to like a pre Emmy party with all
the actors where we were like, what are you working on?
And everyone kept saying nothing, None of us are working
on anything, because that's how it feels right now. But
I would love to get back into that side of things.
I think I would love to become a better director.
I just directed my first short this year, and I

(46:29):
got that like big itch that you get of like, oh,
I would like to be good at this. I want
to put out music for a long time that can
sustain itself because it's so expensive to make art and
I'm just not that good with I don't I don't
have investments. I don't have incredible savings account. Every time

(46:52):
I make money, I put it right back into the art,
and so I would just love for the art to
help me out a little bit. Yeah, goals a little
refund from the investments.

Speaker 2 (47:02):
Yeah, Honestly, every time somebody binge watches just your seasons
of Grays, they should know who it's coming from, and
all those reciprocals should go straight to you.

Speaker 3 (47:10):
Oh, the fucking resids are saving my life. Yeah. I
am getting residuals on a show that I did a
few years ago. And you know, it tapers off at
a certain point because I'm not Grays. People watch Grays
all the time forever. But this was a show and
I just got two residual checks from them for eighty
nine cents and ninety three cents.

Speaker 1 (47:28):
Let's go.

Speaker 3 (47:29):
Don't say I'm not rich.

Speaker 2 (47:31):
You know, my mom says better than a stick in
the eye, girl, but it's.

Speaker 3 (47:34):
She was close. It felt kind of like a stick
in the eye.

Speaker 2 (47:37):
I'm like, Mom, you can't say that feels like a
stick of the eye. She's like, but it's better than that,
thank you. So we talk a lot about parenting, momming,
all the things on this podcast. Naturally, you're not doing
those things today.

Speaker 3 (47:50):
My partner has got kids.

Speaker 1 (47:51):
Oh, let's go.

Speaker 3 (47:52):
I'm with my kids. Yeah, what ages? I won't say.

Speaker 2 (47:57):
I won't.

Speaker 3 (47:57):
I'll tell you guys afterwards. But it's it's a it's
a few of them, and the age range is tough
as nails. The kids are great, but they all need
something so different right now, and they are at war,
and you're like living for those moments where they're not
at war.

Speaker 1 (48:15):
But I love Harlan's phase right now. She's three, and
it's the best because she loves you. Yeah, she snuggled
me this morning.

Speaker 3 (48:21):
Dude. Three is good for the person that the child
loves most. That's it. Three is not nice for the
person the child loves second best. It's not nice for
the babysitter. It's not nice for the cousins.

Speaker 1 (48:35):
The babysitter.

Speaker 3 (48:36):
Three was tough.

Speaker 1 (48:37):
Harlan will just look at you and go, I don't
like you.

Speaker 3 (48:40):
Yes, she'll go, she was, I don't care for you.

Speaker 2 (48:42):
She says it very eloquently, but she'll go, mmmm, I
don't care for you.

Speaker 3 (48:46):
I'm like, okay, I don't care for me either. We
just went to a wedding and the youngest had too
much sugar, which I was like, obviously is an incredible
mistake and like are you out of your mind? But
was just absolutely shredding slurpies whenever we weren't paying attention.
And when we got in the car, she like full fist,

(49:10):
took cuffs. Yeah. Everybody was like closed fist. Well bam
on this side, Well bam on this side. And we
were like, babe, what is going on? She was like,
I'm itchy in my stomach. You're like, that is my fault,
that's an internal problem, that's the sugar, and that is
my phone. Yep, I'm gonna take that one. Listen. There's
nothing worse than when you're a parent and you see it.

(49:33):
It's your phone. There's nothing you can do to be supportive.
The knife's pointed at you and you're like, right, I
do deserve. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (49:39):
All that to say, we typically end with momming advice,
but I want to end a little differently because I
think that the message that you have to deliver about
living authentically is so helpful to our audience. Maddie and
I vent about all things momantastic, love and support for
one another. But I think if you could give the

(50:00):
best advice or like, what have you heard or maybe
never heard that you wish you had heard about accepting
yourself being queer, loud, open, comfortable that you've ever heard
or maybe haven't heard and wish you had heard that
can impart down to the masses.

Speaker 3 (50:16):
What would that be? You know, I'll do a mix
of your original here because I think it's mom advice
tends to be the best advice in the world. My
partner has always talked about, and I never heard this before,
that when she was talking about having her kids, she
was just always like, I was so excited to meet them.

(50:37):
She never ever said I was so excited to have them.
And I think we've had all these conversations about this
really precious relationship that she has with them, of wanting
to be the person that gets to watch their becoming
without projecting any once on the kids, so that the
kids can unfold as they should. And I think the

(51:00):
queer kids, I want them to love themselves the way
that my partner loves her children. I want them to
have the gentleness to say, of course, there are all
these things that you thought you should be, but you
are in the process of becoming, And if you get
in your own way with expectations or other people's expectations

(51:24):
of you, you are not going to be able to
experience the uniqueness of your life. And you only get
one go, and you're the only person that ever gets
to get your go. You're the only person that gets
to do your specific tracks. So make sure that you're
not putting roadblocks of other people's expectations in your way.

(51:44):
Just enjoy the ride and move through.

Speaker 2 (51:47):
I love that so much. Maddie and I talk a
lot about mental health. We both had our own challenges,
and I think everybody that comes out in any other
format than perfectly sis hetero has some challenge with grap
with acceptance. There's naturally some question about should I exist?
Should I take my own life? Am I real? Am
I here? Is this a real experience? And Maddie said

(52:10):
one time to me, it's tough to see someone take
a permanent solution to a temporary problem, right, And I
think that idea of becoming is so beautiful because we're
all getting closer to whatever that is. Maybe we're always
going to be becoming, who knows, hopefully.

Speaker 3 (52:28):
I mean, you've got to hope that you are constantly
having this experience of evolving. And the only people I
really feel like genuine sympathy for are people that have
trapped themselves inside of a box of societal expectations. And
that's not just queer people. In fact, that's normally not
it's actually opposite. And I think a lot of the

(52:49):
vitrio that our community gets is because of a jealousy
of the unfolding that we allow ourselves. I want us
to all experience the privilege of our unfolding, and I
mean all of us.

Speaker 2 (53:00):
That Thank you so much for joining us on these
packs Puck and sharing the screen with us, because naturally
we now are infinitely cooler and better for having spoken
to you.

Speaker 3 (53:11):
Why it's so much fun? Thank you? This was really fun.

Speaker 1 (53:18):
That's it for this week. Thanks for listening, And if
you like what.

Speaker 2 (53:21):
You heard, spread the word seriously right now, take your
phone out, text a friend and tell them to subscribe.

Speaker 1 (53:27):
And be sure to rate and review us on Apple
Podcasts and Spotify if you haven't already. It really really
helps Until next week. I'm Madison Packer and.

Speaker 3 (53:36):
I'm Anya Packer, and this was these packs Puck.

Speaker 1 (53:39):
These pas Puck is a production of iHeart Women's Sports
and Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. It's hosted by Us
Madison and Anya Packer. Emily Mehronoff is our senior producer
and story editor. We were mixed and mastered by Mary Doo.
Our executive producers are Jennifer Bassett, Jesse Katz, and Ali Perry.