October 7, 2025 • 45 mins
Whether it’s getting overstimulated at a baseball game or needing to settle yourself as a parent while your child is melting down, our newest guest, Sara Hartley, has you covered! In this episode, Madison and Anya sit down with The Neurodiverse Mom to talk about her journey as a neurodivergent mom raising neurodivergent kids. But, before we get into that, the Packers have exciting kid updates straight from Waylon’s skating lessons. Join Madison and Anya as they learn new parenting techniques, grounding tools, and more, maybe you’ll adopt a few into your household.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, everyone, Welcome to these packs puck. I'm Madison Packer.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
And I'm Anya Packer. Madison and I are both former
pro hockey players. We met through hockey and fell in love,
and now we're married with two awesome toddlers, ages two
and four.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
These days, we're opening up about the chaos of our
daily lives, between the juggle of being athletes, raising kids.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
And all the messiness in between. So buckle the puck up,
because there is a lot to talk about.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Good morning Packing, Hello, Hello, Should we do the whole
Should we just pick a random accent and do the
whole episode in a new accent?
Speaker 1 (00:40):
No, that accent is stuck in my head because I
was watching White Lotus last night.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
You and starting shows without me is the bane of
my existence.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
You watched Pitt without me.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
You're like incredible show and I would watch it every day.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
No, you start a show without me and then you
go you won't like it, and then you get hooked
on it. I at least say the show is incredible.
I'll rewatch the episodes I watched without you.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
I rewatched the episodes with you. Also, Law and Order
SPU came out with a new episode.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Oh thank goodness, you can watch that one without me. Anyway,
let everybody know what we're three weeks into. Give us
your hockey hot take.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Hockey hockey hot take? What's the hot take? Though? My
new favorite thing is to stand in the corner of
Whalen's hockey and drink a hot chocolate and watch him skate.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
That is who you've become. You're not the intense, screaming parent.
You're not the crazy let me do hand gestures to you.
You are sitting with a hot cocoa, perfectly silent.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
So Whalen his first two days, he was in the
lesson that like the goal is just to get them
to stand up. Now he's in the in the section
where they skate around the stick, and like they do different,
like they're skating more, but it's still very robotic like
walk skating. But he can at least stand up. But
the number of parents who are like crowding around their
(02:02):
kids at the door and like their kids are crying
and screaming and like the kids are slipping and their
sticks are going up and hitting people in the face,
Like like I'm looking at these parents, I'm like, what
are you gonna do to help your kid?
Speaker 2 (02:14):
There's no amount of yelling, there's no amount of doing
the focus hands at a kid that's gonna make them
learn to skate any better. Learning to skate stinks Waylan's
only priority when he's at learning to skate. The only
thing he wants to do is shoot a puck into
a net. He doesn't care about anything else, listening, Who
(02:36):
cares doing the drills, Who cares skating around a cone?
Not for him. He is trying to find the nearest
puck and put it in the smallest little net. That's fine,
he's learning to skate. You you're just slamming hat cocoas
giggling in the freezing cold. And I wore shorts the
first learn to skate, which I heavily regretted. I brought
(02:57):
Harlan and jam Jams in a blanket and I stood
there like I'd never played the sport in my life.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Did you see the meme the rinker at meme, that's
like the sister. There's like a little kid with like
chips falling out of her mouth. That's Harlan around with
no shoes. Her face always gets like black.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
Dirty at the rink, like she's licking the floor, puts
her mouth on.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Like the like water fountain thing or joking about it,
but like it's not funny. Like this is like my
like non combative way of telling you that you need
to keep a closer eye on the drink.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
I'm using the hockey hot take to let you know
that you're not watching our child when I'm trying to
watch him. And what he's doing is hysterical because learned
kid is also pure hilarity. He's just falling repeatedly. Not
only is that happening, Harlan's doing it. Whatever it is
that she's doing, she's slamming the next it's at five
ten on a Sunday PM. I've got nothing left. I
(03:50):
am just perfectly happy for her to put her bluey
stickers on her forehead and for him to be out
on the ice.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Anyway, that's the new hot take is you're the hot
chocolate drinker and you love learned to Escape.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
I'm good at it.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Good at what drinking hot chocolate or not over analyzing
the learned to escape.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Drinking hot chocolate?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Okay, well, proud of you. Maybe too many hot chocolates
at five ten on a Sunday might not be good
for your sleep, But what can we do we get
into a really interesting conversation with our next guest. Can't
wait to get into that conversation, but let's first do
a little check in.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
How okay, where are you at today?
Speaker 2 (04:29):
I'm interesting, I'm in a good spot. I feel like
I've been waking up in the morning. I've been getting
to the gym, I had meetings literally from that moment onward.
But everything seems to be going in the right direction.
So I'm kind of like waiting for the others shoe
to drop, which is maybe just like my success anxiety.
But I have anxiety because things are going well. I'm
going to give myself a hesitant seventy seven, but I
(04:52):
feel like things are good.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
I feel good.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
I missed you a ton. We've kind of not been
around each other for the past two weeks, and you're
home now, and you've been ignoring me in bed two
nights in a row.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
So WHOA, all's good? What did you roll.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Over and give me kiss last night?
Speaker 1 (05:09):
I did not?
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Okay, seventy five, now that you've admitted to.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
That, I am. I was going to say ninety two,
but now I'll say eighty nine because your sour attitude
has knock three down three you because of you. No,
I'm like a ninety five. I had a good day.
I'm going to hopefully get a little bit more stuff
done before I picked the kids up. The kids will
(05:35):
be excited to see me because I'm the fun mom,
fun man. Then we're going to the open house, and
then we're going to date night, which we haven't had
in a while, and then we're gonna watch a movie
and I'm very excited for that. So life's pretty good.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Well, the good news is we get into a conversation
that I think helps us and hopefully everybody really understand
all the complexities that we're dealing with as moms. So
after the break, we're going to get into our conversation
with Sarah Hartley. She calls herself the Nurodiverse Mom. She's
coming out with a book series, Purposely Me, which attacks
a lot of different really important foundational topics for children.
(06:13):
I can't wait to really dive in. So let's get
to that conversation next. Hi, Sarah, welcome to these packs, Puck.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
We are so excited to have you on.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.
I'm a big fan of your show.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Oh well, thank you.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
We're excited to have you because not only are you
a mother of two, you have a really incredible resilient story.
You actually call yourself the neurodiverse Mom. So I want
to give you a second to just tell us what
that title means to you. Give us a little bit
of background, share with us.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
It's kind of hard to put myself into any sort
of box, as I've worn many hats throughout my life.
But it wasn't until I was twenty five years old
that I was diagnosed with ADHD. But at that time,
you know, they just give you medication and they say
be on your way, and there's not a lot of
explanation that goes into it. So really, this idea of
neurodivergency has been something that is really coming to light
(07:15):
more recently. And so it wasn't until my oldest son
was diagnosed with ADHD and he's also diagnosed as highly
gifted and has since reprocessing disorder, and that's when my
own journey really came to light and it was completely
eye opening for me to start to grow alongside of
him and really start to understand myself and who I
am and really realize that having ADHD is just a
(07:39):
part of who I am, and the more that I
learn and grow and understand it, the more that that
becomes a part of me and my story.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
So you were diagnosed with ADHD at twenty five, which,
like to me, seems like something interesting to find out.
I guess about oneself. So I don't want to say old,
but like late in life, Right, you've lived twenty five
years of your life not knowing that about yourself. Like,
prior to that happening, did you recognize that there were
differences within yourself? Did you feel like you were wired differently?
(08:10):
And is it something that you looking back, we're like,
oh wow, now all this makes so much sense.
Speaker 4 (08:15):
All of the above. Yes, I remember being seven or
eight years old and thinking my brain works differently. I
don't fit in. Maybe people don't really understand me. But
we knew who the kids were who had ADHD that
were very outstanding, and typically they didn't do well in school,
they didn't love school, they were always in trouble, and
so I never thought that that could be me. But
(08:37):
I always thought that something was off or different about me.
I didn't have the outwardly hyperactive you know, rambunctious child,
but I was one who really had a difficulty with
turning my thoughts off. So it always felt like I had,
you know, a Ferrari brain with bicycle brakes, where I
just couldn't slow it down. And it wasn't until really
(09:00):
after college. So I went to the University of Georgia
for landscape architecture. And with landscape architecture, you were in
the studio, You're moving around like music's playing, There's constantly
all of these things going on. And I would notice
that we come in at you know, five PM to
do a project. I'd maybe hyper focus, bang it out,
be done in four hours, come back the next morning,
(09:21):
and people were still working on their projects, which I
thought was completely insane. I thrived really well under pressure
but also around all of that chaos. But when I
got into the working world, I was bored to tears.
Just beyond beyond board. I've already finished all these projects.
I somehow came across a quiz online and it said
(09:42):
you might have ADHD, and so you did this quiz
and it said if you score ninety or above, you
should talk to your doctor. And I think I scored
one hundred and twenty so I went to my doctor.
I was like, hey, think I might have ADHD and
he's like, yeah, you do. I do too, And he said,
you know, your IQ is high enough that you masked
it your whole life, so you did really well in
(10:02):
school and so it went unnoticed, but you were internalizing
all of it during this last twenty five years. So
I had a little bit of the rationale of why,
but no strategies or anything moving forward of how to
help me for the future.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
I think it's interesting you mentioned the doctor saying I
do too. There's been so much conversation just in general
about Neurodevir's people and to your point, right now, there
are so many people who are on different levels of
the spectrum, whatever spectrum that might be, and so my
wife and I we spend a lot of time talking
about mental health and awareness and why it's important to
(10:38):
talk about it. Do you feel the importance of that,
especially now given the conversation being what it is and
why is that important?
Speaker 4 (10:46):
If you do feel it's important, absolutely, I think you
had guessed that he was coming out with the book,
and there was mention of if you could take care
of yourself the way that you take care of your children.
And that's what I think has become the eye opening piece,
because once your child's died, strict I'm going to do
anything possible to help this child. I don't care what
it takes. I will protect them at all costs. I
(11:07):
will make sure that they have the right resources. But
then in doing so, you're like, wait a minute, I
might be part of this problem. And if I can't
manage my own emotions and my own feelings and understand
myself better, how am I possibly going to help them?
And that's the whole idea of you know, put on
your own oxygen mass first, because if you're not taking
care and understanding yourself, then you're not really able to
(11:29):
do anything for anyone else. And so this is kind
of a parallel journey that I'm going on and really
exploring that. So I'm learning and growing as I'm working
through all of.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
This as well. I think the biggest thing when we
talk about adults that start to figure out if it's ADHD,
if it's anxiety, if it's depression, there's so many overlapping
symptoms that can really create friction between saying yep, I'm
depressed or YEP I have anxiety and then move along
with tools that are seemingly supportive of those diagnoses and
(11:59):
never look at ADHD. So one, did you ever have
a misdiagnosis?
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Or two?
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Kind of compounding on that, how crazy was your life
when you started to figure out what was really going on.
Speaker 4 (12:13):
It's a blessing and a curse as you start to
figure that out, because you've become so much more aware
of every little idiosyncrasy that happens to you, you know,
or what your little quirks are and why you might
be doing something the way you are. But you hit
the nail on the head with the overlap. And then
I was thrown a curveball about four years ago when
(12:34):
I was diagnosed with lime disease. And I've had chronic
limes since I was probably around seven or eight years old,
and I have a lot of the neuro lime symptoms
that are also similar to the symptoms that you'd have
for ADHD.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Yeah, I think that that layering makes it so confusing.
What helps you when you're starting to try to navigate
through some of that? Is it supportive family, your medical staff?
Is it trusting your own gut? How did you start
that conversation.
Speaker 4 (13:01):
I think it was kind of a culmination of all
of those things. Right after I had been diagnosed with
lime disease. It was right around the time my son
was diagnosed with ADHD, and then my little one actually
had a he was probably about nine months old or so,
and he had a left side facial palsy from an
(13:23):
absent cranial nerve seven and it causes his left eye
not to be able to blink. And he's got a
little bit of a droopy smile. He's got the cutest
little crooked smile. He's about to turn six, and like
it's so endearing and one hundred percent part of his
personality because he's hilarious. So it fits him very well.
But you know, at that time, we were told all
these different things. Maybe it's cranio sinostenosis where the sutures
(13:45):
aren't closed, or maybe it was a stroke in utero,
or cerebral palsy, and so all these different things, And
you know, I just had this moment. I was in
the shower and I said, what is my purpose? Why
am I here? And it just sparked me with this enlightenment.
I got out of the shower, I wrote my first
children's book. My husband came in later, he's like, what
(14:07):
are you doing? Like, why are you taking so long
to get ready? I'm like, I just read a book.
He's like what, who does that? So, you know, there's
those those little moments that kind of are eye opening
where it's like I have got to figure something out here,
And for me, I've learned that writing is very cathartic.
And then I've tried all the tools. I've tried all
the things, and so I created my own aligned parenting
(14:30):
method that is a calming and grounding technique that I've
brought to the forefront of everything I'm trying to do.
And the whole point is like to try not to
lose your shit, because we don't lose our shit. Our
kids won't either, you know. We have to try to
allow for them to mirror our calming emotions. And so
I have to use those type of techniques and do
those things or I'm not able to survive.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
And so how old are your boys now? You said six?
And how old is your oldest?
Speaker 4 (14:55):
He'll be nine in the next ten days they both
have birthdays.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
So how long after your boys were born were they
actually diagnosed? So my oldest.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
We've noticed right away that he was very advanced. He
was surpassing milestones left and right, you know, thinking, Okay,
I know I'm an overachiever, but I'm also thinking maybe
something's wrong here. Kids throwing a ball pretty hard at
six months old, speaking full sentences by two and so
it wasn't until about eighteen months old where we really
started to notice some of the aggressive behavior, where he
(15:27):
was starting to hit more. He was getting a lot
of incident reports at school. All of that started to
come to light, and I spoke with a friend of
mine who's in OT in the schools, and she said,
have you ever thought about him being gifted? And my
first inclination was like, what does he have autism? I
wasn't really fully understanding what it meant to be gifted.
We had AP classes in school, but we didn't have
(15:47):
gifted programs, so I didn't fully understand that. And she said, really,
it's just about your IQ, but you might want to
look into other things like since reprocessing disorder. Because he
didn't like the tags in his clothes. He was always
covering his ears, you know, he didn't like it to
be loud unless he was the one making the sound.
So I noticed these little things that bothered him. All
of those things considered, we started to through the early
(16:11):
intervention process and went through a place called child find.
When he was probably about four and a half, he
went through a full evaluation and that's really when we
found out about his IQ being highly gifted. So he's
like the ninety ninth percentile for IQ ADHD. They said
it was mild at the time. I'd go more with
extreme now and then the sensory processing piece. So all
(16:34):
of that was diagnosed pretty young, my six year old.
I mean, I say the jury is still out only
because I'm not a doctor, but I definitely think he
has ADHD as well. It's just presenting completely differently. Where
my oldest was outwardly aggressive, you know, she just would
get very frustrated, very easily, a lot of anger, and
my younger one, I can see his impulsivity. I can
(16:56):
see he's just into everything, just messing stuff up all
the time. Like my husband was looking this morning, He's like, somehow,
wells got into the sink and just started unscrewing the
drain and now it's crooked and broken, and I'm like,
that's well, that's what he does. He's also very intelligent
as well, but also in a totally different way.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
And being a mom, being a parent is already hard,
then balancing that with having a child who has exceptional
gifts and needs adds on top of that, plus balancing
your own neurodivergency, Like how do you do.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
All of that?
Speaker 1 (17:34):
When do you sleep?
Speaker 4 (17:35):
Yes? I don't. I don't think I sleep very much.
I really try to prioritize sleep. I've had to develop
these methods of how can I incorporate some of these strategies.
We took my oldest to all of the OT support
and the play therapy, and they give you this full
sensory diet workup, and this is the things he needs
to do, like wall pushes or you know, heavy lifting
(17:58):
of things or roll them up in a blanket. But
I'm thinking the whole time, like what works for me.
I have absolutely have to go on a walk every day.
I have to walk our dog. I you know, talk
with my therapist who is specialized in neurodivergency. So she's
the one that's been eye opening to helping me understand
my time blindness or how I do hyper focus, or
(18:18):
the fact that I just I decision fatigue at the
end of the day, where I'm like, I can't decide
what's for dinner. I've been making decisions all day long,
every day. And for me, if my schedule's packed, that's better.
I mean, it's more leads to more burnout. But if
I have idle time, then that idle time it's like
it's so overwhelming that I have so many things to do.
I don't know where to start with those other tasks.
(18:40):
So if it's like my calendar is jam packed, that's
a really productive day for me. So I have to
just kind of balance that with exercise. I mean, that's
such a big boost for your brain health. I listen
to to podcasts that are more inspiring or where I
feel like people are on the same wave link like
they get me. So you know, I love listening to yours.
I listen to Mel Robbins or Gab Bernstein like I
(19:00):
try to throw in a mix of Doctor Joe Despenza,
like I throw in a mix of different ones, and
it just helps me on my walk to just feel
that sense of calm.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Well. I mean, I think it's really important too that
you have that kind of like criteria on what works,
and I think that's what you were talking about a
little bit earlier in that aligned parenting. I want to
know more about aligned parenting. I want to hear a
little bit about some of those criterias that help us
keep our cool, because one, I think we all need that,
and two, being narrowed divergent processing things differently, as we mentioned,
(19:34):
doesn't necessarily mean you're processing things wrong, right, So talk
to us a little about aligned parenting. What's some criteria
that fits in there, and maybe how it's how you
would communicate it. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:46):
Absolutely, So I'll go through just what that stands for
first and then give you an example. And so the
A is for awareness. You know, you're trying to bring
awareness to yourself and your surroundings. Really go from that
point of just you know, living and you know, reaving
of things around you to understanding what is actually happening
in this moment. Elle is for listening and labeling. So
maybe it's that your your child is setting you off,
(20:09):
you know, and they're maybe they're melting down, and so
you're understanding and listening to your own body, you know,
with that awareness piece, you're feeling, is my chest tight
or my hands are my palms sweaty, you know, or
my fist tight. You're listening to them, you're labeling the emotion.
I'm feeling really overwhelmed right now. Once you've labeled that,
one of the most important pieces I identifying that trigger.
(20:29):
You know, are you in a place that's really loud?
You know, have you had a really rough day? You know,
what is it that has gone on that maybe would
cause that, maybe they're really tired or hungry. But then
you have to ground yourself. So now that you're fully
aware of what's happening, you want to ground yourself by
doing a quick thing like your son just mentioned, you know,
drawing that circle, or I've seen therapists do, like where
(20:50):
you trace your fingers. You're taking that deep breath, drinking
a sip of water. Water can reset your central nervous system.
So really quick grounding technique and then nurture again in
one of the most important piece is whether it's just
for yourself to calm down and giving yourself grace of
like I'm having a hard day, or it's that you're
saying to your child, dude, I get it, like you're
(21:10):
struggling right now, It's been a long day. I'm feeling
overwhelmed too. You're not alone. Let's try to go ahead
and move forward. And so there's just that connection piece
over correction and having that connection in the midst of
all the chaos that goes a really long way. And
I can give you an example of that. I don't
know if you've heard of the Savannah Bananas, the kind
(21:31):
of a phenomenon right now. Being from Savannah, we're huge fans.
My youngest is having his birthday party next weekend and
it's Savannah Banana themed, so it's going to be a
wild one at our house.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
I don't know why I've gotten.
Speaker 4 (21:42):
Myself in over my head. But we went to the
game in Denver and the Rocky Stadium, and so you
had to get there an hour and a half or
so early to get in line. Huge thing where you
go in and you meet the players, they sign all
the balls, kind of like the Harlem Globe Trotters, and
so very cool event.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
But it was hot.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
It was hot, and we're standing in line for over
an hour. My oldest is melting down. He's just instead
of like a younger child where he'd be crying, he's like,
I don't want to be here. I hate this. This
is dumb, this is stupid, you know, all of those things.
And I'm thinking, oh, I paid so much for these tickets,
and you know, like I don't want to be you know,
I don't want to be in this line either. I
took a deep breath and said, align with him. I'm
(22:22):
feeling super overwhelmed and anxious. So I leaned down to
him and I'm like, dude, I'm feeling really overwhelmed and anxious.
It's really hot out here. I noticed that there are
so many people, it's crowded. There's smells coming from the stadium.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
You know, it's.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
Overwhelming with the sound, the smells, the entire environment, and
I'm hot. And I said, how about we take a
sip of water. Let's do a quick grounding exercise. Name
three things that are purple. And we're at the Rocky Stadium,
so that shouldn't be hard to do. And then I said,
it looks like we're about.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
To go inside.
Speaker 4 (22:51):
Do you want to go home or you know, do
you want to go in and get your ball signed?
And he said, let's go get the ball signed, Like,
let's go. So it just in a matter of less
in sixty seconds, I was able to bring myself back
to earth and then ground myself and ground him at
the same time and move on. And I ended up
doing it three or four times in the stadium that
night because he, you know, as his ADHD medication wears off,
(23:15):
he starts to get a little loose, as my husband
and I call it, you know, and he just kind
of starts bouncing off the walls. And so you know,
I just have to be eye opening in that moment
to be like, what is triggering him and what's going
on and have that empathy, because you can't be empathetic
and angry at the same time. You know, if you
can hold that empathy and you can get curious, that's
(23:35):
where it's going to make a change.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
I just want to first say that I so greatly
appreciate you walking through the steps of that, because as
somebody who grew up with a lot of anxiety and depression,
I think it's very easy for your parent to be like,
I don't understand what's going wrong with you, go to
your room right and immediately make you feel like you're wrong,
to immediately make you feel like, you know, you have
(23:58):
nobody connected. And my mom, this is thirty four years ago, right, Like,
we don't talk about those kinds of tools at that time.
There's no podcast, there's no connectivity. There's yourself, your parent
who raised you and gave you that same kind of
tough love, and no real I think common ground for
anyone to be like, my daughter is killing me and
(24:20):
I don't know what to do.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Well. In two, I appreciate the comment about empathy, Like,
I think that that's something that gets so lost in
all of this, and if you just focus on that
piece alone, like the human experience and human understanding becomes
and looks so different if we just add empathy into
the equation. I think that's a huge part of the
conversation and a huge part again about the experience just
of trying to be At some point we as people
(24:44):
have stopped being empathetic and stopped being considerate and allowed
like differences or different understandings right to divide rather than
inserting empathy and saying, okay, well that is their lived experience,
and it's just I think it's hugely, hugely important.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Yeah one und so when you when we talk about
kind of all of that combined, my concern is always
and again maybe it's just judgment. But my concern is
always am I raising soft children? And soft is not
a bad thing to me? But that's the perception. Right
when you say, oh, you know, I treat my children
(25:19):
with empathy, you'll get I think fifty to fifty split. Right,
somebody is saying, oh, well, you're raising soft kids, or yeah,
why would I not give my child respect, care, understanding?
How do you rationalize that argument versus just somebody's unaware
and somebody is aware? Right, But that's that's seemingly a
lot of the argument is how is giving our kids
(25:42):
carte blanche to do whatever, which is.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
Not what we're doing.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
That's not what we're doing here, But that seems to
be the misconception, right.
Speaker 4 (25:51):
A couple of things. One with ADHD. I talked a
little bit about decision fatigue earlier. A lot of what
happens is that you are so fatigued by decisions that
you start to mirror the person's personality around you. I
almost think about it like a dog, my dog when
we walk outside. There are many dogs that we walk by,
(26:12):
but he doesn't even notice, doesn't it because he is
playing to their temperament?
Speaker 1 (26:17):
You know.
Speaker 4 (26:17):
But if there's an aggressive dog that walks by. All
of a sudden, he's you know, the hair is standing
up on the back of his neck. He's ready to
protect me. It's the same thing with the people that
you're around in your children. If you are coming at
them all the time and trying to show force and
show that you're in charge and that they're the child,
and you know you're punishing them, what are they learning.
(26:38):
They are learning to fear you. They're going to end
up lying to you later in life because they're afraid
of your reaction when they tell you something. You know,
or you can show them what it means to be
compassionate and have emotional intelligence. And if they start to
mirror you, then they're going to mirror you in a
respectful way. If we can't respect them, they're not going
to respect us. And I've watched that happen. I mean,
(27:00):
I even think of back to this time where I
guess I was very impatient in the car, you know,
and I'm at the red light and saying, you know,
somebody hasn't gone in front of me. And I used
to say, come on, come on, and I didn't even
know I was saying that, and my oldest was probably too.
And then all of a sudden he was hurrying me
along and saying come on, come on. I was like, oh, wow,
he got that from me. So he is going to
mirror my personality and he's going to learn from me.
(27:22):
And if he learns to be an asshole, that's what
he's going to be. So if he learns to be respectful,
that's what he's going to be. Especially if he has
ADHD or some other type of neurodiversity, he won't learn otherwise,
and then we've just created a bad human.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Yeah, And I think Mattie says this all the time, like,
if we're just making good humans, we're probably doing a
good job. Right. That's the foundation of what we choose
as parents, is if we can just make good human beings.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
And so I think that's the hardest part of the job,
because they have to leave your house and go out
into a world where they interact with other humans who
are raised by humans. That it's a coin toss.
Speaker 4 (27:59):
Oh absolutely. And they're just such an element there too,
you know. And that's the thing though, is we're all human.
We all have faults.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
We will mess up.
Speaker 4 (28:09):
I yell all the time, but I repair, and when
I do yell, I own it and I say, Mommy
messed up. I explain I was feeling really overwhelmed because
this happened today. It has nothing to do with you.
I should never speak to you that way, and I'm
really sorry.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
You know.
Speaker 4 (28:24):
I'm not saying it's because you did this or you
trigger me. I'm not blaming them. I'm not shaming them,
but I'm owning the ownership because I am human and
I am going to make mistakes. The main reason I
developed this method is because I need work myself, and
I think we all do.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
But you're right.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
You send them out to the world and the only
thing you can hope is that everything you've instilled in
them gives them the courage to speak up when they
need to, you know, or to know what's right when
put in that situation.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
That's like when I yell at whale and a nice
tell them that I won't do it anymore, And because
you said that last time, I go, well, I'm not perfect,
so just give me a break. Dude.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
He does do that. He holds on. But but our
biggest rule in our house and you said this too,
so like I feel like we're on a good track
on is we don't lie to each other because I
grew up in a very like consequence punishment home. I
love my parents, they're great parents. I had a great
childhood it but I did grow up afraid of what
(29:20):
would happen if I got in trouble, so it led
to like hiding and lying. And like now as a parent,
I wish that I would have known as a kid
how much my parents loved me and been more honest,
and like I want to instill that in my kids,
if that makes sense, because like, if you can have
that relationship and that's what we say away alone, no
(29:40):
matter what it is, as long as you don't lie,
you will not get in trouble. And sometimes I want
to like smack myself in the back of the head
for making that promise. But it doesn't mean that it's
that it's it doesn't mean that it's always a free
for all for him, right, But but like I will
catch him going to tell a lie and then he'll
be like, well, and then he'll tell the truth, and
then my reaction in that moment can't be anything other
(30:01):
than Okay, well we're going to talk about that. But
thank you for telling the truth. So I think that
that talk track is super helpful and super important, and
I think that we are going to start implementing some
of the align in our own home. This is where
we steal all our best ideas as all of our
Superstar podcast guests. So thank you. So you have two companies,
(30:36):
Echo Parenting and SLH Creative Group. When did you create
these companies?
Speaker 4 (30:44):
So I mentioned, you know, the thoughts in the shower.
The Echo Parenting piece is really more of a philosophy
that is centered around being on the same path as
your child as we were kind of learning about ourselves
through them and and with the the company that I've created.
That's where my books turned in from one that day
(31:04):
to now. I thought thirteen, but I'm actually working through
the fourteenth right now, which I think you would be
appreciative of. It's purposefully resilient because it's around my son
had a very bad injury to a collarbone and you know,
he's basketball star at eight years old, and that was
his identity and having that moment, to have that taken
(31:24):
away from him and trying to work through that as
a child is very difficult.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
But the.
Speaker 4 (31:31):
Full series is called Purposefully me it's tackling really hard,
difficult topics for children like divorce, death, bullying, ADHD, autism, dyslexia,
you know, all of the neurodiversity pieces as well. Anxiety.
There is one about school. It's not necessarily school shootings
because it's for more of an elementary audience, but it
(31:52):
is about school drills and even the anxiety that comes
with hearing the fire alarm or just the active shooter
drill or I guess what they you know, they call
it a different name to try to make it more
appropriate for the age, But it's centered around kind of
asking that question, what is my purpose? Why am I here?
Is it to do this or is it to do that.
By the end, they're going through a conflict and it's
(32:14):
a classroom of students and they're resolving, you know, it
is to do this or it's not to do that,
And it's to really create that safe space for a
child to feel less alone, but not even.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Just the child.
Speaker 4 (32:26):
I've had some people review the books and they said,
you know, I saw myself in this book, and I
saw my daughter in the other books. So alongside as
parents are having this echo parenting journey where they're learning
through their child. I want for that parent or that teacher,
or that counselor to see themselves in these books as
well and have that moment of Okay, it's okay to
(32:47):
be me, and it's okay to have some of these
differences that make us unique and beautiful people.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
I love everything that you've said and as you talked
about it. So when we booked this, we went through
the process of like looking at everything about everything that
you put into the world, and a humongous, humongous one
is this purposely Me series. There are so many of
these books that align to things like you know, you
kind of talk about them from them out. You know,
if there was a book about divorce when I was
a kid and my parents got divorced before I was walking,
(33:17):
you know, it would continue to help me understand what
was going on. Last week's episode, we talked about drills,
like our kids are coming home with the fear of
these drills, not understanding what a fire drill is. Last night,
my computer was making noise and Waylan woke up screaming, crying,
holding his ears because the sound of my computer dinging
in my office sounded like a drill, and nobody was
(33:38):
leaving the house. So he was really scared.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
All that difface that got me like right choke.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Yeah, that was horrifying.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
The poor kid, it was horrible. He like completely freaked
out and we couldn't figure out why. And it was
because it reminded him of the drill.
Speaker 4 (33:52):
That's heartbreaking. I just had a weird I mean, being
in Colorado. Evergreen's only thirty minutes from here, and so
my husband and I kind of said something about Evergreen,
but you know, we weren't saying it in the car,
and my oldest said, oh, you heard about Evergreen. And
I was going to tell my husband later that I
was going to ask him, hey, have you heard anything
(34:13):
at school? Because other kids are coming in and talking
about it. He had four different kids in his class
come in tell them all about it. You know, he's
in fourth grade now, so these are conversations they're having.
If we don't have them at home, you know, he's
going to be there scared. And so then we talked
about and he asked great questions, but at that time
we didn't have a lot of the answers, you know,
and he just was trying to wrap his mind around
(34:35):
why someone could do that. And that, to me is
the reason why these books were born. My mind immediately
goes to well, course, immediately to the families and the
heartache that they have, but also to the shooter, to say,
what was happening in that child's mind and brain that
didn't have the support, or didn't have the network, or
(34:56):
was influenced by something out there on the internet. You know,
what was missing that we missed as a society or
as parents, and how do we avoid that in the future.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Yeah, and Anny and I talked about this, like we
started doing roundtable where we just talk about stuff at dinner,
and like, that's the thing, right, I mean, you want
to instill in your kids and have a relationship that's
so strong that like, no matter what they hear or
who they hear it from, they're like, no way, I
trust my parents. I think that that's the goal, and
(35:27):
I think it's I think it's so interesting that so
many parents now share that because we look and see
what the world is like right now, and it's terrifying.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Well, I think another piece that is topically relevant because
it just happened the other night. Whalen was in trouble.
I mean, trouble is crazy it was bedtime, so he
had to go to bed, and he was not in trouble,
but he wasn't going to bed, and he was getting
frustrated because I said, I'm gonna sit in your room
until you close your eyes. He's like, you know, big,
get up, get out of better, like doing all the things.
So I sat down in his room because that helps
(35:56):
him because I'm physically there. He knows he can't get up.
He tries to quote quote trick me for me to
fall asleep. But he told me that he wanted me
to die, and and I said, whoa right, Like I
could have gone super reactive. You can't say that to me.
I'm your mom, And so I got up. I sat
in his bed and I said, no, you're upset by me.
I know you don't want to go to bed, but
do you know if I what that means, tell me
(36:17):
what that means to you? Where have you heard that? Like?
So then to your point, like he starts explaining to
me what it means, and I'm like, nope, nope, it
doesn't just mean that I go away for fifteen minutes.
That means I'm gone, Like we'll never play again, We'll
never see each other again, we can never have another hug,
we can never laugh, I can never make you mac
and cheese. I could never And then I explain all
the things that we like to do and he started
(36:37):
crying and he didn't you know, he didn't mean it.
But I think the challenge is if we can't have
these conversations, then kids just go on in the world
and do all of the factors that they that they're
seeing around them. These words don't have any value, they
have no meaning, right, like we give them a gun toy,
but tell them not to touch a real one. Like
we've got these these really challenging things. So all of that,
(37:01):
to say, is the reason that you came up with
purposely me because you felt that gap working with neurodive
virgin kids and parenting NEUDI virgin kids, that there was
something missing there and and have you felt like there's
been a reception to the books, the series and fixing
a lot of those kind of like just maybe gaps
(37:23):
that we've got.
Speaker 4 (37:25):
Absolutely I think some of it For me, I it
was very cathartic in writing it, and a lot of
the different characters in the story are you know, mirrored
off of experiences that I had growing up, or maybe
my brother had, or maybe one of my children had.
Even one of the first ones was after an incident
(37:48):
that happened at his school that I really you know,
changed a lot of the narrative. But that type of
thing that's not being talked about. And I've always been
one to push the envelope. Even in high school. My
senior paper was on MDMA and that was back in
you know, early two thousands, so you know, that's I
just always try to push the envelope with writing. But
I think that I was left in the dark for
(38:09):
so long about understanding more of who I was, and
I wondered if someone would have given me that support,
how could that have changed certain aspects of my life.
I don't want to change anything now, you know. It's
set me on my own growth and healing journey. But
at the same time, I want to make life a
little bit easier for my own children and for other
children out there. So I definitely saw a gap. They
(38:31):
are not not quite released yet. We finished the first one,
just went to printing, so that should be released early November.
We've just finished the illustrations for the second one, and
then we're going to be releasing one a month once
that first one is released, so it'll be, you know,
a little bit at a time that that comes out,
as it's a big undertaking to get them all published.
(38:51):
But for those who have read it, a lot of
ots and therapists and friends that have kids with ADHD
or some sort of neurodiversity have read it. And actually
my parents have been married for fifty years. A friend
of mine though, who has read them, who's in ot
her parents were divorced, and you know, so she said,
I needed this.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
When the books do go to print, where can people
get them?
Speaker 4 (39:13):
So you can find them on my website It's Sarah
Lewishartley dot com. Or all the information and even calming
strategies are on my Instagram. It's at Sarah Lewis Hartley
and it's s A R A L E w I
s h A R T L E y.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Well, okay, cool one.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
We're excited to get the series for our own kids.
But then in that as well, is there a way
that you're working with your own boys to better explain
your diversity and maybe how they're thinking about things and
processing things and not having them feel othered.
Speaker 4 (39:46):
Yes, And I think having that awareness for myself, you know,
and other people in our family have ADHD, so it's
easy to say, you know, your uncle or your cousin
or you know.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
And so.
Speaker 4 (39:58):
That when I think we had the first conversation, it
was you know, hey, our brains just work differently, and
you know, this is why the hardest part is that
it's he's they still has a lot of negative thoughts,
you know, that's something that is especially after an injury.
He's had a very rough year and his his teacher
died of cancer. She was his favorite teacher. So for
(40:20):
you know, an eight year old to have a severe
injury and within you know, a month, you know, his
his favorite teacher dying. This was all back in May
and June. So we have we have to have to
It's continued conversations, you know, the conversation never stops. And
sometimes he'll say you he thinks it's a curse, and
I'm like, these are all the really good things because
it really is also incredible, and it's it depends on
(40:41):
how you use it, and your brain's gonna work faster
than others, you know, and you're incredibly intelligent and you're good,
very strategic and good at problem solving and extremely creative
and so trying to just constantly reinforce those affirmations and
have those conversations. So there are you know, elements of
affirmations in the book. There there's conversational questions at the end,
(41:02):
so you can have those conversations with your children. I
want to get these into schools. That's one of the
biggest places where I see this. And we'll have an
ebook as well so it can go on their Mimeo
boards and they can walk through it. But yes, absolutely,
the conversation will never stop and it will just continue
to change a little bit and be appropriate for his age.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
Well, I think that that says so much about you
as a as an educator, as a listener, as a mom,
and as somebody that cares so deeply, because having long
conversations with kids is exhausting, but also it's so necessary.
You know, we think like one point and done is
enough for because I said so, right, But like when
you really dive into it, especially when we're talking about
(41:42):
something as complicated as understanding the workings of the brain,
it takes a lot out of you. So I hold
a lot of space for your for your patients because
I probably don't have nearly as much. But every episode
we end with the kind of foundational question of what
is the best advice that you've ever received or that
(42:03):
you wished you've received, Because sometimes we don't always get
the best advice, but we've learned through our lives maybe
try this and not that. So what is that kind
of piece of advice that's always stuck with you, Or
what's the thing that you've never been told that you
wish you had been told as a mom?
Speaker 4 (42:20):
Oh, that's a that's definitely a great one.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
I think.
Speaker 4 (42:26):
Knowing that a lot of our children's behavior has nothing
to do with us and instead of taking it, you know,
as they're being disrespectful or it's a knock to our parenting,
you know, I think we immediately are shaming ourselves and
you know, not holding space for giving ourselves grace with
anything that there's something else underlying that could be environmental,
(42:48):
it could just be how the day's gone, and that
it's really up to us to then model what to
do for them. It's it's hard to tune them out
when they're having a major meltdown. But you know, I'd
say ninety nine point nine percent of the time. It
has nothing to do with us, and it's something more there,
and so become curious. And I love how curious you
(43:09):
were with Whalen. The time period right before they go
to sleep is when they become the most vulnerable. And
that's when we have all of our best questions that
I might ask, or I leave it open ended, and
then my oldest will just it is like word bombit
it comes right out and he will. There have been
times worth thirty minutes and he's still talking, and I've
(43:30):
learned so much about the day and what's happening in
dynamics with friendships. So knowing that little critical piece right
before bed is really a great time to connect with
them and to really hear about how they're feeling and
what's going on inside of them.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
I love that. My favorite time of night, although sometimes
it drags on and we are like, oh, I can't
believe it. Bedtime is always one of my favorites. Anya
is usually the movie and the cuddler, and I'm the bedtimer.
Speaker 2 (43:58):
So because I give up at some point, I need
to tap out. I love you, babe, but I'm out.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
I'm out. Yeah, it's a fair trade, Sarah, thank you.
This has been amazing to our listeners. Again, look out
for her series purposely me we will certainly be purchasing it.
I think that it fills a huge void that exists
right now in early childhood development, and so I'm excited
to learn with my kids, share with my kids, and
(44:24):
hopefully our listeners will join us on that journey. So, Sarah,
thank you so much. This has been awesome.
Speaker 2 (44:29):
Thank you, Thank you for having.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
That's it for this week.
Speaker 2 (44:36):
Thanks for listening, and if you like what you heard,
spread the word seriously right now, take your phone out,
text a friend and tell them to subscribe.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
And be sure to rate and review us on Apple
Podcasts and Spotify if you haven't already. It really really
helps Until next week.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
I'm Madison Packer and I'm Anya Packer, and this was
These Packs Puck.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
These Packs Puck is a production of iHeart Women's Sports
and Blue Sports and Entertainment. It's hosted by us Madison
and Anya Packer. Emily Mernoff is our senior producer and
story editor. We were mixed and mastered by Mary Deo.
Our executive producers are Jennifer Bassett, Jesse Katz, and Ali
Perry
Hi, everyone, Welcome to these packs puck. I'm Madison Packer.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
And I'm Anya Packer. Madison and I are both former
pro hockey players. We met through hockey and fell in love,
and now we're married with two awesome toddlers, ages two
and four.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
These days, we're opening up about the chaos of our
daily lives, between the juggle of being athletes, raising kids.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
And all the messiness in between. So buckle the puck up,
because there is a lot to talk about.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Good morning Packing, Hello, Hello, Should we do the whole
Should we just pick a random accent and do the
whole episode in a new accent?
Speaker 1 (00:40):
No, that accent is stuck in my head because I
was watching White Lotus last night.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
You and starting shows without me is the bane of
my existence.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
You watched Pitt without me.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
You're like incredible show and I would watch it every day.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
No, you start a show without me and then you
go you won't like it, and then you get hooked
on it. I at least say the show is incredible.
I'll rewatch the episodes I watched without you.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
I rewatched the episodes with you. Also, Law and Order
SPU came out with a new episode.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Oh thank goodness, you can watch that one without me. Anyway,
let everybody know what we're three weeks into. Give us
your hockey hot take.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Hockey hockey hot take? What's the hot take? Though? My
new favorite thing is to stand in the corner of
Whalen's hockey and drink a hot chocolate and watch him skate.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
That is who you've become. You're not the intense, screaming parent.
You're not the crazy let me do hand gestures to you.
You are sitting with a hot cocoa, perfectly silent.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
So Whalen his first two days, he was in the
lesson that like the goal is just to get them
to stand up. Now he's in the in the section
where they skate around the stick, and like they do different,
like they're skating more, but it's still very robotic like
walk skating. But he can at least stand up. But
the number of parents who are like crowding around their
(02:02):
kids at the door and like their kids are crying
and screaming and like the kids are slipping and their
sticks are going up and hitting people in the face,
Like like I'm looking at these parents, I'm like, what
are you gonna do to help your kid?
Speaker 2 (02:14):
There's no amount of yelling, there's no amount of doing
the focus hands at a kid that's gonna make them
learn to skate any better. Learning to skate stinks Waylan's
only priority when he's at learning to skate. The only
thing he wants to do is shoot a puck into
a net. He doesn't care about anything else, listening, Who
(02:36):
cares doing the drills, Who cares skating around a cone?
Not for him. He is trying to find the nearest
puck and put it in the smallest little net. That's fine,
he's learning to skate. You you're just slamming hat cocoas
giggling in the freezing cold. And I wore shorts the
first learn to skate, which I heavily regretted. I brought
(02:57):
Harlan and jam Jams in a blanket and I stood
there like I'd never played the sport in my life.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Did you see the meme the rinker at meme, that's
like the sister. There's like a little kid with like
chips falling out of her mouth. That's Harlan around with
no shoes. Her face always gets like black.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
Dirty at the rink, like she's licking the floor, puts
her mouth on.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Like the like water fountain thing or joking about it,
but like it's not funny. Like this is like my
like non combative way of telling you that you need
to keep a closer eye on the drink.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
I'm using the hockey hot take to let you know
that you're not watching our child when I'm trying to
watch him. And what he's doing is hysterical because learned
kid is also pure hilarity. He's just falling repeatedly. Not
only is that happening, Harlan's doing it. Whatever it is
that she's doing, she's slamming the next it's at five
ten on a Sunday PM. I've got nothing left. I
(03:50):
am just perfectly happy for her to put her bluey
stickers on her forehead and for him to be out
on the ice.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Anyway, that's the new hot take is you're the hot
chocolate drinker and you love learned to Escape.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
I'm good at it.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Good at what drinking hot chocolate or not over analyzing
the learned to escape.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Drinking hot chocolate?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Okay, well, proud of you. Maybe too many hot chocolates
at five ten on a Sunday might not be good
for your sleep, But what can we do we get
into a really interesting conversation with our next guest. Can't
wait to get into that conversation, but let's first do
a little check in.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
How okay, where are you at today?
Speaker 2 (04:29):
I'm interesting, I'm in a good spot. I feel like
I've been waking up in the morning. I've been getting
to the gym, I had meetings literally from that moment onward.
But everything seems to be going in the right direction.
So I'm kind of like waiting for the others shoe
to drop, which is maybe just like my success anxiety.
But I have anxiety because things are going well. I'm
going to give myself a hesitant seventy seven, but I
(04:52):
feel like things are good.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
I feel good.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
I missed you a ton. We've kind of not been
around each other for the past two weeks, and you're
home now, and you've been ignoring me in bed two
nights in a row.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
So WHOA, all's good? What did you roll.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Over and give me kiss last night?
Speaker 1 (05:09):
I did not?
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Okay, seventy five, now that you've admitted to.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
That, I am. I was going to say ninety two,
but now I'll say eighty nine because your sour attitude
has knock three down three you because of you. No,
I'm like a ninety five. I had a good day.
I'm going to hopefully get a little bit more stuff
done before I picked the kids up. The kids will
(05:35):
be excited to see me because I'm the fun mom,
fun man. Then we're going to the open house, and
then we're going to date night, which we haven't had
in a while, and then we're gonna watch a movie
and I'm very excited for that. So life's pretty good.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Well, the good news is we get into a conversation
that I think helps us and hopefully everybody really understand
all the complexities that we're dealing with as moms. So
after the break, we're going to get into our conversation
with Sarah Hartley. She calls herself the Nurodiverse Mom. She's
coming out with a book series, Purposely Me, which attacks
a lot of different really important foundational topics for children.
(06:13):
I can't wait to really dive in. So let's get
to that conversation next. Hi, Sarah, welcome to these packs, Puck.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
We are so excited to have you on.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.
I'm a big fan of your show.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Oh well, thank you.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
We're excited to have you because not only are you
a mother of two, you have a really incredible resilient story.
You actually call yourself the neurodiverse Mom. So I want
to give you a second to just tell us what
that title means to you. Give us a little bit
of background, share with us.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
It's kind of hard to put myself into any sort
of box, as I've worn many hats throughout my life.
But it wasn't until I was twenty five years old
that I was diagnosed with ADHD. But at that time,
you know, they just give you medication and they say
be on your way, and there's not a lot of
explanation that goes into it. So really, this idea of
neurodivergency has been something that is really coming to light
(07:15):
more recently. And so it wasn't until my oldest son
was diagnosed with ADHD and he's also diagnosed as highly
gifted and has since reprocessing disorder, and that's when my
own journey really came to light and it was completely
eye opening for me to start to grow alongside of
him and really start to understand myself and who I
am and really realize that having ADHD is just a
(07:39):
part of who I am, and the more that I
learn and grow and understand it, the more that that
becomes a part of me and my story.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
So you were diagnosed with ADHD at twenty five, which,
like to me, seems like something interesting to find out.
I guess about oneself. So I don't want to say old,
but like late in life, Right, you've lived twenty five
years of your life not knowing that about yourself. Like,
prior to that happening, did you recognize that there were
differences within yourself? Did you feel like you were wired differently?
(08:10):
And is it something that you looking back, we're like,
oh wow, now all this makes so much sense.
Speaker 4 (08:15):
All of the above. Yes, I remember being seven or
eight years old and thinking my brain works differently. I
don't fit in. Maybe people don't really understand me. But
we knew who the kids were who had ADHD that
were very outstanding, and typically they didn't do well in school,
they didn't love school, they were always in trouble, and
so I never thought that that could be me. But
(08:37):
I always thought that something was off or different about me.
I didn't have the outwardly hyperactive you know, rambunctious child,
but I was one who really had a difficulty with
turning my thoughts off. So it always felt like I had,
you know, a Ferrari brain with bicycle brakes, where I
just couldn't slow it down. And it wasn't until really
(09:00):
after college. So I went to the University of Georgia
for landscape architecture. And with landscape architecture, you were in
the studio, You're moving around like music's playing, There's constantly
all of these things going on. And I would notice
that we come in at you know, five PM to
do a project. I'd maybe hyper focus, bang it out,
be done in four hours, come back the next morning,
(09:21):
and people were still working on their projects, which I
thought was completely insane. I thrived really well under pressure
but also around all of that chaos. But when I
got into the working world, I was bored to tears.
Just beyond beyond board. I've already finished all these projects.
I somehow came across a quiz online and it said
(09:42):
you might have ADHD, and so you did this quiz
and it said if you score ninety or above, you
should talk to your doctor. And I think I scored
one hundred and twenty so I went to my doctor.
I was like, hey, think I might have ADHD and
he's like, yeah, you do. I do too, And he said,
you know, your IQ is high enough that you masked
it your whole life, so you did really well in
(10:02):
school and so it went unnoticed, but you were internalizing
all of it during this last twenty five years. So
I had a little bit of the rationale of why,
but no strategies or anything moving forward of how to
help me for the future.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
I think it's interesting you mentioned the doctor saying I
do too. There's been so much conversation just in general
about Neurodevir's people and to your point, right now, there
are so many people who are on different levels of
the spectrum, whatever spectrum that might be, and so my
wife and I we spend a lot of time talking
about mental health and awareness and why it's important to
(10:38):
talk about it. Do you feel the importance of that,
especially now given the conversation being what it is and
why is that important?
Speaker 4 (10:46):
If you do feel it's important, absolutely, I think you
had guessed that he was coming out with the book,
and there was mention of if you could take care
of yourself the way that you take care of your children.
And that's what I think has become the eye opening piece,
because once your child's died, strict I'm going to do
anything possible to help this child. I don't care what
it takes. I will protect them at all costs. I
(11:07):
will make sure that they have the right resources. But
then in doing so, you're like, wait a minute, I
might be part of this problem. And if I can't
manage my own emotions and my own feelings and understand
myself better, how am I possibly going to help them?
And that's the whole idea of you know, put on
your own oxygen mass first, because if you're not taking
care and understanding yourself, then you're not really able to
(11:29):
do anything for anyone else. And so this is kind
of a parallel journey that I'm going on and really
exploring that. So I'm learning and growing as I'm working
through all of.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
This as well. I think the biggest thing when we
talk about adults that start to figure out if it's ADHD,
if it's anxiety, if it's depression, there's so many overlapping
symptoms that can really create friction between saying yep, I'm
depressed or YEP I have anxiety and then move along
with tools that are seemingly supportive of those diagnoses and
(11:59):
never look at ADHD. So one, did you ever have
a misdiagnosis?
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Or two?
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Kind of compounding on that, how crazy was your life
when you started to figure out what was really going on.
Speaker 4 (12:13):
It's a blessing and a curse as you start to
figure that out, because you've become so much more aware
of every little idiosyncrasy that happens to you, you know,
or what your little quirks are and why you might
be doing something the way you are. But you hit
the nail on the head with the overlap. And then
I was thrown a curveball about four years ago when
(12:34):
I was diagnosed with lime disease. And I've had chronic
limes since I was probably around seven or eight years old,
and I have a lot of the neuro lime symptoms
that are also similar to the symptoms that you'd have
for ADHD.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Yeah, I think that that layering makes it so confusing.
What helps you when you're starting to try to navigate
through some of that? Is it supportive family, your medical staff?
Is it trusting your own gut? How did you start
that conversation.
Speaker 4 (13:01):
I think it was kind of a culmination of all
of those things. Right after I had been diagnosed with
lime disease. It was right around the time my son
was diagnosed with ADHD, and then my little one actually
had a he was probably about nine months old or so,
and he had a left side facial palsy from an
(13:23):
absent cranial nerve seven and it causes his left eye
not to be able to blink. And he's got a
little bit of a droopy smile. He's got the cutest
little crooked smile. He's about to turn six, and like
it's so endearing and one hundred percent part of his
personality because he's hilarious. So it fits him very well.
But you know, at that time, we were told all
these different things. Maybe it's cranio sinostenosis where the sutures
(13:45):
aren't closed, or maybe it was a stroke in utero,
or cerebral palsy, and so all these different things, And
you know, I just had this moment. I was in
the shower and I said, what is my purpose? Why
am I here? And it just sparked me with this enlightenment.
I got out of the shower, I wrote my first
children's book. My husband came in later, he's like, what
(14:07):
are you doing? Like, why are you taking so long
to get ready? I'm like, I just read a book.
He's like what, who does that? So, you know, there's
those those little moments that kind of are eye opening
where it's like I have got to figure something out here,
And for me, I've learned that writing is very cathartic.
And then I've tried all the tools. I've tried all
the things, and so I created my own aligned parenting
(14:30):
method that is a calming and grounding technique that I've
brought to the forefront of everything I'm trying to do.
And the whole point is like to try not to
lose your shit, because we don't lose our shit. Our
kids won't either, you know. We have to try to
allow for them to mirror our calming emotions. And so
I have to use those type of techniques and do
those things or I'm not able to survive.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
And so how old are your boys now? You said six?
And how old is your oldest?
Speaker 4 (14:55):
He'll be nine in the next ten days they both
have birthdays.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
So how long after your boys were born were they
actually diagnosed? So my oldest.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
We've noticed right away that he was very advanced. He
was surpassing milestones left and right, you know, thinking, Okay,
I know I'm an overachiever, but I'm also thinking maybe
something's wrong here. Kids throwing a ball pretty hard at
six months old, speaking full sentences by two and so
it wasn't until about eighteen months old where we really
started to notice some of the aggressive behavior, where he
(15:27):
was starting to hit more. He was getting a lot
of incident reports at school. All of that started to
come to light, and I spoke with a friend of
mine who's in OT in the schools, and she said,
have you ever thought about him being gifted? And my
first inclination was like, what does he have autism? I
wasn't really fully understanding what it meant to be gifted.
We had AP classes in school, but we didn't have
(15:47):
gifted programs, so I didn't fully understand that. And she said, really,
it's just about your IQ, but you might want to
look into other things like since reprocessing disorder. Because he
didn't like the tags in his clothes. He was always
covering his ears, you know, he didn't like it to
be loud unless he was the one making the sound.
So I noticed these little things that bothered him. All
of those things considered, we started to through the early
(16:11):
intervention process and went through a place called child find.
When he was probably about four and a half, he
went through a full evaluation and that's really when we
found out about his IQ being highly gifted. So he's
like the ninety ninth percentile for IQ ADHD. They said
it was mild at the time. I'd go more with
extreme now and then the sensory processing piece. So all
(16:34):
of that was diagnosed pretty young, my six year old.
I mean, I say the jury is still out only
because I'm not a doctor, but I definitely think he
has ADHD as well. It's just presenting completely differently. Where
my oldest was outwardly aggressive, you know, she just would
get very frustrated, very easily, a lot of anger, and
my younger one, I can see his impulsivity. I can
(16:56):
see he's just into everything, just messing stuff up all
the time. Like my husband was looking this morning, He's like, somehow,
wells got into the sink and just started unscrewing the
drain and now it's crooked and broken, and I'm like,
that's well, that's what he does. He's also very intelligent
as well, but also in a totally different way.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
And being a mom, being a parent is already hard,
then balancing that with having a child who has exceptional
gifts and needs adds on top of that, plus balancing
your own neurodivergency, Like how do you do.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
All of that?
Speaker 1 (17:34):
When do you sleep?
Speaker 4 (17:35):
Yes? I don't. I don't think I sleep very much.
I really try to prioritize sleep. I've had to develop
these methods of how can I incorporate some of these strategies.
We took my oldest to all of the OT support
and the play therapy, and they give you this full
sensory diet workup, and this is the things he needs
to do, like wall pushes or you know, heavy lifting
(17:58):
of things or roll them up in a blanket. But
I'm thinking the whole time, like what works for me.
I have absolutely have to go on a walk every day.
I have to walk our dog. I you know, talk
with my therapist who is specialized in neurodivergency. So she's
the one that's been eye opening to helping me understand
my time blindness or how I do hyper focus, or
(18:18):
the fact that I just I decision fatigue at the
end of the day, where I'm like, I can't decide
what's for dinner. I've been making decisions all day long,
every day. And for me, if my schedule's packed, that's better.
I mean, it's more leads to more burnout. But if
I have idle time, then that idle time it's like
it's so overwhelming that I have so many things to do.
I don't know where to start with those other tasks.
(18:40):
So if it's like my calendar is jam packed, that's
a really productive day for me. So I have to
just kind of balance that with exercise. I mean, that's
such a big boost for your brain health. I listen
to to podcasts that are more inspiring or where I
feel like people are on the same wave link like
they get me. So you know, I love listening to yours.
I listen to Mel Robbins or Gab Bernstein like I
(19:00):
try to throw in a mix of Doctor Joe Despenza,
like I throw in a mix of different ones, and
it just helps me on my walk to just feel
that sense of calm.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Well. I mean, I think it's really important too that
you have that kind of like criteria on what works,
and I think that's what you were talking about a
little bit earlier in that aligned parenting. I want to
know more about aligned parenting. I want to hear a
little bit about some of those criterias that help us
keep our cool, because one, I think we all need that,
and two, being narrowed divergent processing things differently, as we mentioned,
(19:34):
doesn't necessarily mean you're processing things wrong, right, So talk
to us a little about aligned parenting. What's some criteria
that fits in there, and maybe how it's how you
would communicate it. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:46):
Absolutely, So I'll go through just what that stands for
first and then give you an example. And so the
A is for awareness. You know, you're trying to bring
awareness to yourself and your surroundings. Really go from that
point of just you know, living and you know, reaving
of things around you to understanding what is actually happening
in this moment. Elle is for listening and labeling. So
maybe it's that your your child is setting you off,
(20:09):
you know, and they're maybe they're melting down, and so
you're understanding and listening to your own body, you know,
with that awareness piece, you're feeling, is my chest tight
or my hands are my palms sweaty, you know, or
my fist tight. You're listening to them, you're labeling the emotion.
I'm feeling really overwhelmed right now. Once you've labeled that,
one of the most important pieces I identifying that trigger.
(20:29):
You know, are you in a place that's really loud?
You know, have you had a really rough day? You know,
what is it that has gone on that maybe would
cause that, maybe they're really tired or hungry. But then
you have to ground yourself. So now that you're fully
aware of what's happening, you want to ground yourself by
doing a quick thing like your son just mentioned, you know,
drawing that circle, or I've seen therapists do, like where
(20:50):
you trace your fingers. You're taking that deep breath, drinking
a sip of water. Water can reset your central nervous system.
So really quick grounding technique and then nurture again in
one of the most important piece is whether it's just
for yourself to calm down and giving yourself grace of
like I'm having a hard day, or it's that you're
saying to your child, dude, I get it, like you're
(21:10):
struggling right now, It's been a long day. I'm feeling
overwhelmed too. You're not alone. Let's try to go ahead
and move forward. And so there's just that connection piece
over correction and having that connection in the midst of
all the chaos that goes a really long way. And
I can give you an example of that. I don't
know if you've heard of the Savannah Bananas, the kind
(21:31):
of a phenomenon right now. Being from Savannah, we're huge fans.
My youngest is having his birthday party next weekend and
it's Savannah Banana themed, so it's going to be a
wild one at our house.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
I don't know why I've gotten.
Speaker 4 (21:42):
Myself in over my head. But we went to the
game in Denver and the Rocky Stadium, and so you
had to get there an hour and a half or
so early to get in line. Huge thing where you
go in and you meet the players, they sign all
the balls, kind of like the Harlem Globe Trotters, and
so very cool event.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
But it was hot.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
It was hot, and we're standing in line for over
an hour. My oldest is melting down. He's just instead
of like a younger child where he'd be crying, he's like,
I don't want to be here. I hate this. This
is dumb, this is stupid, you know, all of those things.
And I'm thinking, oh, I paid so much for these tickets,
and you know, like I don't want to be you know,
I don't want to be in this line either. I
took a deep breath and said, align with him. I'm
(22:22):
feeling super overwhelmed and anxious. So I leaned down to
him and I'm like, dude, I'm feeling really overwhelmed and anxious.
It's really hot out here. I noticed that there are
so many people, it's crowded. There's smells coming from the stadium.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
You know, it's.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
Overwhelming with the sound, the smells, the entire environment, and
I'm hot. And I said, how about we take a
sip of water. Let's do a quick grounding exercise. Name
three things that are purple. And we're at the Rocky Stadium,
so that shouldn't be hard to do. And then I said,
it looks like we're about.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
To go inside.
Speaker 4 (22:51):
Do you want to go home or you know, do
you want to go in and get your ball signed?
And he said, let's go get the ball signed, Like,
let's go. So it just in a matter of less
in sixty seconds, I was able to bring myself back
to earth and then ground myself and ground him at
the same time and move on. And I ended up
doing it three or four times in the stadium that
night because he, you know, as his ADHD medication wears off,
(23:15):
he starts to get a little loose, as my husband
and I call it, you know, and he just kind
of starts bouncing off the walls. And so you know,
I just have to be eye opening in that moment
to be like, what is triggering him and what's going
on and have that empathy, because you can't be empathetic
and angry at the same time. You know, if you
can hold that empathy and you can get curious, that's
(23:35):
where it's going to make a change.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
I just want to first say that I so greatly
appreciate you walking through the steps of that, because as
somebody who grew up with a lot of anxiety and depression,
I think it's very easy for your parent to be like,
I don't understand what's going wrong with you, go to
your room right and immediately make you feel like you're wrong,
to immediately make you feel like, you know, you have
(23:58):
nobody connected. And my mom, this is thirty four years ago, right, Like,
we don't talk about those kinds of tools at that time.
There's no podcast, there's no connectivity. There's yourself, your parent
who raised you and gave you that same kind of
tough love, and no real I think common ground for
anyone to be like, my daughter is killing me and
(24:20):
I don't know what to do.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Well. In two, I appreciate the comment about empathy, Like,
I think that that's something that gets so lost in
all of this, and if you just focus on that
piece alone, like the human experience and human understanding becomes
and looks so different if we just add empathy into
the equation. I think that's a huge part of the
conversation and a huge part again about the experience just
of trying to be At some point we as people
(24:44):
have stopped being empathetic and stopped being considerate and allowed
like differences or different understandings right to divide rather than
inserting empathy and saying, okay, well that is their lived experience,
and it's just I think it's hugely, hugely important.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Yeah one und so when you when we talk about
kind of all of that combined, my concern is always
and again maybe it's just judgment. But my concern is
always am I raising soft children? And soft is not
a bad thing to me? But that's the perception. Right
when you say, oh, you know, I treat my children
(25:19):
with empathy, you'll get I think fifty to fifty split. Right,
somebody is saying, oh, well, you're raising soft kids, or yeah,
why would I not give my child respect, care, understanding?
How do you rationalize that argument versus just somebody's unaware
and somebody is aware? Right, But that's that's seemingly a
lot of the argument is how is giving our kids
(25:42):
carte blanche to do whatever, which is.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
Not what we're doing.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
That's not what we're doing here, But that seems to
be the misconception, right.
Speaker 4 (25:51):
A couple of things. One with ADHD. I talked a
little bit about decision fatigue earlier. A lot of what
happens is that you are so fatigued by decisions that
you start to mirror the person's personality around you. I
almost think about it like a dog, my dog when
we walk outside. There are many dogs that we walk by,
(26:12):
but he doesn't even notice, doesn't it because he is
playing to their temperament?
Speaker 1 (26:17):
You know.
Speaker 4 (26:17):
But if there's an aggressive dog that walks by. All
of a sudden, he's you know, the hair is standing
up on the back of his neck. He's ready to
protect me. It's the same thing with the people that
you're around in your children. If you are coming at
them all the time and trying to show force and
show that you're in charge and that they're the child,
and you know you're punishing them, what are they learning.
(26:38):
They are learning to fear you. They're going to end
up lying to you later in life because they're afraid
of your reaction when they tell you something. You know,
or you can show them what it means to be
compassionate and have emotional intelligence. And if they start to
mirror you, then they're going to mirror you in a
respectful way. If we can't respect them, they're not going
to respect us. And I've watched that happen. I mean,
(27:00):
I even think of back to this time where I
guess I was very impatient in the car, you know,
and I'm at the red light and saying, you know,
somebody hasn't gone in front of me. And I used
to say, come on, come on, and I didn't even
know I was saying that, and my oldest was probably too.
And then all of a sudden he was hurrying me
along and saying come on, come on. I was like, oh, wow,
he got that from me. So he is going to
mirror my personality and he's going to learn from me.
(27:22):
And if he learns to be an asshole, that's what
he's going to be. So if he learns to be respectful,
that's what he's going to be. Especially if he has
ADHD or some other type of neurodiversity, he won't learn otherwise,
and then we've just created a bad human.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Yeah, And I think Mattie says this all the time, like,
if we're just making good humans, we're probably doing a
good job. Right. That's the foundation of what we choose
as parents, is if we can just make good human beings.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
And so I think that's the hardest part of the job,
because they have to leave your house and go out
into a world where they interact with other humans who
are raised by humans. That it's a coin toss.
Speaker 4 (27:59):
Oh absolutely. And they're just such an element there too,
you know. And that's the thing though, is we're all human.
We all have faults.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
We will mess up.
Speaker 4 (28:09):
I yell all the time, but I repair, and when
I do yell, I own it and I say, Mommy
messed up. I explain I was feeling really overwhelmed because
this happened today. It has nothing to do with you.
I should never speak to you that way, and I'm
really sorry.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
You know.
Speaker 4 (28:24):
I'm not saying it's because you did this or you
trigger me. I'm not blaming them. I'm not shaming them,
but I'm owning the ownership because I am human and
I am going to make mistakes. The main reason I
developed this method is because I need work myself, and
I think we all do.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
But you're right.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
You send them out to the world and the only
thing you can hope is that everything you've instilled in
them gives them the courage to speak up when they
need to, you know, or to know what's right when
put in that situation.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
That's like when I yell at whale and a nice
tell them that I won't do it anymore, And because
you said that last time, I go, well, I'm not perfect,
so just give me a break. Dude.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
He does do that. He holds on. But but our
biggest rule in our house and you said this too,
so like I feel like we're on a good track
on is we don't lie to each other because I
grew up in a very like consequence punishment home. I
love my parents, they're great parents. I had a great
childhood it but I did grow up afraid of what
(29:20):
would happen if I got in trouble, so it led
to like hiding and lying. And like now as a parent,
I wish that I would have known as a kid
how much my parents loved me and been more honest,
and like I want to instill that in my kids,
if that makes sense, because like, if you can have
that relationship and that's what we say away alone, no
(29:40):
matter what it is, as long as you don't lie,
you will not get in trouble. And sometimes I want
to like smack myself in the back of the head
for making that promise. But it doesn't mean that it's
that it's it doesn't mean that it's always a free
for all for him, right, But but like I will
catch him going to tell a lie and then he'll
be like, well, and then he'll tell the truth, and
then my reaction in that moment can't be anything other
(30:01):
than Okay, well we're going to talk about that. But
thank you for telling the truth. So I think that
that talk track is super helpful and super important, and
I think that we are going to start implementing some
of the align in our own home. This is where
we steal all our best ideas as all of our
Superstar podcast guests. So thank you. So you have two companies,
(30:36):
Echo Parenting and SLH Creative Group. When did you create
these companies?
Speaker 4 (30:44):
So I mentioned, you know, the thoughts in the shower.
The Echo Parenting piece is really more of a philosophy
that is centered around being on the same path as
your child as we were kind of learning about ourselves
through them and and with the the company that I've created.
That's where my books turned in from one that day
(31:04):
to now. I thought thirteen, but I'm actually working through
the fourteenth right now, which I think you would be
appreciative of. It's purposefully resilient because it's around my son
had a very bad injury to a collarbone and you know,
he's basketball star at eight years old, and that was
his identity and having that moment, to have that taken
(31:24):
away from him and trying to work through that as
a child is very difficult.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
But the.
Speaker 4 (31:31):
Full series is called Purposefully me it's tackling really hard,
difficult topics for children like divorce, death, bullying, ADHD, autism, dyslexia,
you know, all of the neurodiversity pieces as well. Anxiety.
There is one about school. It's not necessarily school shootings
because it's for more of an elementary audience, but it
(31:52):
is about school drills and even the anxiety that comes
with hearing the fire alarm or just the active shooter
drill or I guess what they you know, they call
it a different name to try to make it more
appropriate for the age, But it's centered around kind of
asking that question, what is my purpose? Why am I here?
Is it to do this or is it to do that.
By the end, they're going through a conflict and it's
(32:14):
a classroom of students and they're resolving, you know, it
is to do this or it's not to do that,
And it's to really create that safe space for a
child to feel less alone, but not even.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Just the child.
Speaker 4 (32:26):
I've had some people review the books and they said,
you know, I saw myself in this book, and I
saw my daughter in the other books. So alongside as
parents are having this echo parenting journey where they're learning
through their child. I want for that parent or that teacher,
or that counselor to see themselves in these books as
well and have that moment of Okay, it's okay to
(32:47):
be me, and it's okay to have some of these
differences that make us unique and beautiful people.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
I love everything that you've said and as you talked
about it. So when we booked this, we went through
the process of like looking at everything about everything that
you put into the world, and a humongous, humongous one
is this purposely Me series. There are so many of
these books that align to things like you know, you
kind of talk about them from them out. You know,
if there was a book about divorce when I was
a kid and my parents got divorced before I was walking,
(33:17):
you know, it would continue to help me understand what
was going on. Last week's episode, we talked about drills,
like our kids are coming home with the fear of
these drills, not understanding what a fire drill is. Last night,
my computer was making noise and Waylan woke up screaming, crying,
holding his ears because the sound of my computer dinging
in my office sounded like a drill, and nobody was
(33:38):
leaving the house. So he was really scared.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
All that difface that got me like right choke.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Yeah, that was horrifying.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
The poor kid, it was horrible. He like completely freaked
out and we couldn't figure out why. And it was
because it reminded him of the drill.
Speaker 4 (33:52):
That's heartbreaking. I just had a weird I mean, being
in Colorado. Evergreen's only thirty minutes from here, and so
my husband and I kind of said something about Evergreen,
but you know, we weren't saying it in the car,
and my oldest said, oh, you heard about Evergreen. And
I was going to tell my husband later that I
was going to ask him, hey, have you heard anything
(34:13):
at school? Because other kids are coming in and talking
about it. He had four different kids in his class
come in tell them all about it. You know, he's
in fourth grade now, so these are conversations they're having.
If we don't have them at home, you know, he's
going to be there scared. And so then we talked
about and he asked great questions, but at that time
we didn't have a lot of the answers, you know,
and he just was trying to wrap his mind around
(34:35):
why someone could do that. And that, to me is
the reason why these books were born. My mind immediately
goes to well, course, immediately to the families and the
heartache that they have, but also to the shooter, to say,
what was happening in that child's mind and brain that
didn't have the support, or didn't have the network, or
(34:56):
was influenced by something out there on the internet. You know,
what was missing that we missed as a society or
as parents, and how do we avoid that in the future.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Yeah, and Anny and I talked about this, like we
started doing roundtable where we just talk about stuff at dinner,
and like, that's the thing, right, I mean, you want
to instill in your kids and have a relationship that's
so strong that like, no matter what they hear or
who they hear it from, they're like, no way, I
trust my parents. I think that that's the goal, and
(35:27):
I think it's I think it's so interesting that so
many parents now share that because we look and see
what the world is like right now, and it's terrifying.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Well, I think another piece that is topically relevant because
it just happened the other night. Whalen was in trouble.
I mean, trouble is crazy it was bedtime, so he
had to go to bed, and he was not in trouble,
but he wasn't going to bed, and he was getting
frustrated because I said, I'm gonna sit in your room
until you close your eyes. He's like, you know, big,
get up, get out of better, like doing all the things.
So I sat down in his room because that helps
(35:56):
him because I'm physically there. He knows he can't get up.
He tries to quote quote trick me for me to
fall asleep. But he told me that he wanted me
to die, and and I said, whoa right, Like I
could have gone super reactive. You can't say that to me.
I'm your mom, And so I got up. I sat
in his bed and I said, no, you're upset by me.
I know you don't want to go to bed, but
do you know if I what that means, tell me
(36:17):
what that means to you? Where have you heard that? Like?
So then to your point, like he starts explaining to
me what it means, and I'm like, nope, nope, it
doesn't just mean that I go away for fifteen minutes.
That means I'm gone, Like we'll never play again, We'll
never see each other again, we can never have another hug,
we can never laugh, I can never make you mac
and cheese. I could never And then I explain all
the things that we like to do and he started
(36:37):
crying and he didn't you know, he didn't mean it.
But I think the challenge is if we can't have
these conversations, then kids just go on in the world
and do all of the factors that they that they're
seeing around them. These words don't have any value, they
have no meaning, right, like we give them a gun toy,
but tell them not to touch a real one. Like
we've got these these really challenging things. So all of that,
(37:01):
to say, is the reason that you came up with
purposely me because you felt that gap working with neurodive
virgin kids and parenting NEUDI virgin kids, that there was
something missing there and and have you felt like there's
been a reception to the books, the series and fixing
a lot of those kind of like just maybe gaps
(37:23):
that we've got.
Speaker 4 (37:25):
Absolutely I think some of it For me, I it
was very cathartic in writing it, and a lot of
the different characters in the story are you know, mirrored
off of experiences that I had growing up, or maybe
my brother had, or maybe one of my children had.
Even one of the first ones was after an incident
(37:48):
that happened at his school that I really you know,
changed a lot of the narrative. But that type of
thing that's not being talked about. And I've always been
one to push the envelope. Even in high school. My
senior paper was on MDMA and that was back in
you know, early two thousands, so you know, that's I
just always try to push the envelope with writing. But
I think that I was left in the dark for
(38:09):
so long about understanding more of who I was, and
I wondered if someone would have given me that support,
how could that have changed certain aspects of my life.
I don't want to change anything now, you know. It's
set me on my own growth and healing journey. But
at the same time, I want to make life a
little bit easier for my own children and for other
children out there. So I definitely saw a gap. They
(38:31):
are not not quite released yet. We finished the first one,
just went to printing, so that should be released early November.
We've just finished the illustrations for the second one, and
then we're going to be releasing one a month once
that first one is released, so it'll be, you know,
a little bit at a time that that comes out,
as it's a big undertaking to get them all published.
(38:51):
But for those who have read it, a lot of
ots and therapists and friends that have kids with ADHD
or some sort of neurodiversity have read it. And actually
my parents have been married for fifty years. A friend
of mine though, who has read them, who's in ot
her parents were divorced, and you know, so she said,
I needed this.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
When the books do go to print, where can people
get them?
Speaker 4 (39:13):
So you can find them on my website It's Sarah
Lewishartley dot com. Or all the information and even calming
strategies are on my Instagram. It's at Sarah Lewis Hartley
and it's s A R A L E w I
s h A R T L E y.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Well, okay, cool one.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
We're excited to get the series for our own kids.
But then in that as well, is there a way
that you're working with your own boys to better explain
your diversity and maybe how they're thinking about things and
processing things and not having them feel othered.
Speaker 4 (39:46):
Yes, And I think having that awareness for myself, you know,
and other people in our family have ADHD, so it's
easy to say, you know, your uncle or your cousin
or you know.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
And so.
Speaker 4 (39:58):
That when I think we had the first conversation, it
was you know, hey, our brains just work differently, and
you know, this is why the hardest part is that
it's he's they still has a lot of negative thoughts,
you know, that's something that is especially after an injury.
He's had a very rough year and his his teacher
died of cancer. She was his favorite teacher. So for
(40:20):
you know, an eight year old to have a severe
injury and within you know, a month, you know, his
his favorite teacher dying. This was all back in May
and June. So we have we have to have to
It's continued conversations, you know, the conversation never stops. And
sometimes he'll say you he thinks it's a curse, and
I'm like, these are all the really good things because
it really is also incredible, and it's it depends on
(40:41):
how you use it, and your brain's gonna work faster
than others, you know, and you're incredibly intelligent and you're good,
very strategic and good at problem solving and extremely creative
and so trying to just constantly reinforce those affirmations and
have those conversations. So there are you know, elements of
affirmations in the book. There there's conversational questions at the end,
(41:02):
so you can have those conversations with your children. I
want to get these into schools. That's one of the
biggest places where I see this. And we'll have an
ebook as well so it can go on their Mimeo
boards and they can walk through it. But yes, absolutely,
the conversation will never stop and it will just continue
to change a little bit and be appropriate for his age.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
Well, I think that that says so much about you
as a as an educator, as a listener, as a mom,
and as somebody that cares so deeply, because having long
conversations with kids is exhausting, but also it's so necessary.
You know, we think like one point and done is
enough for because I said so, right, But like when
you really dive into it, especially when we're talking about
(41:42):
something as complicated as understanding the workings of the brain,
it takes a lot out of you. So I hold
a lot of space for your for your patients because
I probably don't have nearly as much. But every episode
we end with the kind of foundational question of what
is the best advice that you've ever received or that
(42:03):
you wished you've received, Because sometimes we don't always get
the best advice, but we've learned through our lives maybe
try this and not that. So what is that kind
of piece of advice that's always stuck with you, Or
what's the thing that you've never been told that you
wish you had been told as a mom?
Speaker 4 (42:20):
Oh, that's a that's definitely a great one.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
I think.
Speaker 4 (42:26):
Knowing that a lot of our children's behavior has nothing
to do with us and instead of taking it, you know,
as they're being disrespectful or it's a knock to our parenting,
you know, I think we immediately are shaming ourselves and
you know, not holding space for giving ourselves grace with
anything that there's something else underlying that could be environmental,
(42:48):
it could just be how the day's gone, and that
it's really up to us to then model what to
do for them. It's it's hard to tune them out
when they're having a major meltdown. But you know, I'd
say ninety nine point nine percent of the time. It
has nothing to do with us, and it's something more there,
and so become curious. And I love how curious you
(43:09):
were with Whalen. The time period right before they go
to sleep is when they become the most vulnerable. And
that's when we have all of our best questions that
I might ask, or I leave it open ended, and
then my oldest will just it is like word bombit
it comes right out and he will. There have been
times worth thirty minutes and he's still talking, and I've
(43:30):
learned so much about the day and what's happening in
dynamics with friendships. So knowing that little critical piece right
before bed is really a great time to connect with
them and to really hear about how they're feeling and
what's going on inside of them.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
I love that. My favorite time of night, although sometimes
it drags on and we are like, oh, I can't
believe it. Bedtime is always one of my favorites. Anya
is usually the movie and the cuddler, and I'm the bedtimer.
Speaker 2 (43:58):
So because I give up at some point, I need
to tap out. I love you, babe, but I'm out.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
I'm out. Yeah, it's a fair trade, Sarah, thank you.
This has been amazing to our listeners. Again, look out
for her series purposely me we will certainly be purchasing it.
I think that it fills a huge void that exists
right now in early childhood development, and so I'm excited
to learn with my kids, share with my kids, and
(44:24):
hopefully our listeners will join us on that journey. So, Sarah,
thank you so much. This has been awesome.
Speaker 2 (44:29):
Thank you, Thank you for having.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
That's it for this week.
Speaker 2 (44:36):
Thanks for listening, and if you like what you heard,
spread the word seriously right now, take your phone out,
text a friend and tell them to subscribe.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
And be sure to rate and review us on Apple
Podcasts and Spotify if you haven't already. It really really
helps Until next week.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
I'm Madison Packer and I'm Anya Packer, and this was
These Packs Puck.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
These Packs Puck is a production of iHeart Women's Sports
and Blue Sports and Entertainment. It's hosted by us Madison
and Anya Packer. Emily Mernoff is our senior producer and
story editor. We were mixed and mastered by Mary Deo.
Our executive producers are Jennifer Bassett, Jesse Katz, and Ali
Perry
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