October 22, 2021 • 56 mins
Camp Pendleton, CA: The journey begins on the hallowed ground of First Sergeant’s Hill, which looks down on the headquarters of the 5th Marine Regiment at Camp Pendleton, California, where Third Squad lived before they deployed. Ten years after meeting in Sangin, Third Squad’s Michael Minor takes Elliott on a hike up to a memorial to dead Marines and guides him through his rough passage back to civilian life.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Third Squad is a podcast about war. Every episode contains
strong language and descriptions of violence that may not be
suitable for all listeners. Also, this is episode two. If
you haven't listened to episode one, you might want to
start there. Everything will make a lot more sense. That's out.
(00:24):
Did you think it was someone else? Right now? It's
March in America's chaotic withdrawal from Afghanistan is still five
months in the future. But right now I'm at the
airport in San Diego to pick up my friend and
Third Squad producer, Tommy Andres. He's going to join me
on that road trip I told you about in the
(00:45):
last episode, the one from California to North Carolina that
Michael Dutcher never got to take. Fow you brought a
lot of ship. I'm really glad this is all you have.
I did bring a blow dry. The zero hour has
finally arrived, and we've got a rendezvous scheduled with Michael Minor,
the first of the Third Squad Marines on our itinerary.
(01:06):
He lives here in California and he's going to show
us around Camp Pendleton's, where Third Squad lived and trained
before sangin. So we stuffed Tommy's gear into the rental
car and we head north alright, crossing onto the Base
Marine Corps Base Camp Pendleton. Christian Needos Gates. Ei, there,
what do you need a driver's license? Okay, cool? Thank you?
(01:29):
All right. This is where it all began for Third Squad,
Camp San Mateo, among the fighting fifth Marines. That's not
an exaggeration. I'm Elliott Woods. This is Third Squad episode two,
(01:49):
Riding the Wave. It's been ten years since I last
saw Michael Minor back at Patrol bass Fires when he
was weighed down with body armor and wearing camo. But
I recognize him immediately when we pull into the parking lot.
What's up? Not much long time? No see elbow bump?
(02:17):
How are you all right? Man? I about you guys
hanging in there? So tell me about who do we
have here? Miner's got his two dogs with him, Bella
and Kenny Bella. He was twenty five when we met
back in Sangin, one of the oldest guys in the squad.
Now he's thirty five and he's got some new wrinkles
around his eyes. Okay. His fiancee is also joining us
(02:40):
for the day. Hi, I'm Elliott. Must be Laura Miners,
wearing a faded black hoodie that looks like it might
be his new uniform. The kangaroo pockets torn on one side,
and it's got the Geronimo head logo of the first Battalion,
fifth Marines, the battalion that Third Squad belonged to, and
or slogan make peace or Die. But it's been uh
(03:04):
since two thousand twelves last time I was down here.
Nothing has changed, for the trees got taller. We're standing
in front of the barracks where Minor lived with the
rest of Third Squad. It's a plane brick building with
concrete walkways around each floor and exterior doors to the
rooms like a motel. There's my old room, and the
room there on the end had bed books, and O'Brien
(03:26):
stayed in that room right there next to it. There
are a bunch of other barracks and headquarters buildings nearby
that all looked pretty much the same, almost like if
a prison architect got to design a college campus, which fits,
since being in the military is kind of like being
a prisoner and a member of a huge fraternity at
the same time. It's a fraternity. Yeah, but I mean
(03:46):
we get paid to drink and shoot guns. But at
the same time, the reason why you're drinking both that
carmauderies because when you get deployed, the guys your left
and you're right, that's who your that's your life is
in their hands. You have to break down all barriers
when you for meet someone and instill that trust in
them to know that they're gonna be able to pull
you through any situation you get into. Now, do you
(04:06):
feel anything when you come back here? So shitty the barracks.
That's about it. It's no nostalgia, No, none of those
you know, poetic feelings, none of those wheat grounds. We're
not poets. There are a lot of jokes in the
military about how Marines are not exactly known for their intelligence. Well,
everybody thinks marines are dumb and wheat crayons and like
(04:28):
jar head instance, because you know, the jar is always
empty unless you put something in there. Here's a more
charitable definition of jar head. Because of their single minded
willingness to put their duty before themselves, Marines are said
to have jar heads, hard on the outside and empty
on the inside. We're here more than anything to see
a memorial to that single minded willingness to put duty
(04:51):
before self. And that's that's the first sergeants who sure
you still want to go up? From a distance. First,
a Agent's hill just looks like a gentle, grassy slope,
maybe a couple hundred feet tall, but the trail to
the top is slick from yesterday's rain and years of
runoff have carved a deep trench down the center. All right,
shall we? All right? And that's when Tommy comes in
(05:15):
for the fn G treatment, the fucking new guy. I mean,
it's it's not as intimidating as it looks. Man, I'll
be fine. Also, you know, Tommy, if things got heavy,
I would carry your stuff for you. I would do
that for you. It's very sweet. I appreciate it. It
probably won't come as a surprise to you. That ship
talking is baked into the bro culture of the military.
(05:35):
We tease Tommy about his new boots and his skinny
jeans and the fact that he brought a blow dryer
on the trip. Blow dryer for the fucking Sorry, this
is a podcast about me getting made fun of me
getting Oh there's some there's some guys you'll meet that
will give you a little bit more ship than me.
I'm actually one of the tame ones. Ye all right.
(06:06):
Pretty soon it starts to feel like more of a
climb than a hike ship. It's been a while. At
one especially steep spot, our feet slip out from under us,
and we dropped to all fours. Stuff called that other
side might actually be easier because it's dry to date.
(06:27):
What have I got myself into? Holy grab. After a
few false summits, a cluster of wooden crosses comes into view.
Mind blowing huh, you wouldn't expect me worry. The first
(06:51):
crosses I see bristle out from a huge pile of boulders.
There's a heap of telephone poles and truck tires and
sandbags wrapped and ducked tape. That all that is ship
that we carried up the hill. This is about everybody
who survived the deployments. The crosses are handmade out of lumber,
(07:15):
dozens of them, stretched back for hundreds of yards from
that first cluster, up and over grassy meadow, overlooking the
barracks to the north and the ocean to the west.
Because this right here is where the true heroes of
the Fifth and Marines law. These are the ones that
paid the price. Each of these memorials bears the name
(07:44):
of someone who didn't come home, carved into the wood,
or painted with stencils. They're all different, each one decorated
with some combination of military belts, rank insignia, T shirts,
and threadbare flags, beer cans, and I consumed bottles of
liquor rest at some of their bases. So you haven't
(08:05):
been up here in nine years. The last time I
came up here, I was pretty pretty drunk. No way,
I didn't feel the hill. What about what's at the
top of the hill. Did you feel that? Oh? Yeah,
you can feel it instantly once you walk up here. Man,
just all the memories and you just feel the presence
like you guys don't know if you felt it when
you walked up, but it's just a sense of overwhelming
(08:27):
feeling of oh ship, here we go. These crosses represent
the dead from the fifth Marines and the supporting units
that served with them, including the Navy Corman, the sailors
who care for the wounded Marines in combat. Almost all
(08:50):
of them are k I a s Killed in action
from a rock and Afghanistan. We used to. I don't
know if they still do it at all. The new guys,
we always make them come up here, and you want
them to see what they're fighting for is not only
their friends and their family and you know, for the country.
But you're keeping these guys memories alive. These are the
warriors who pay the ultimate sacrifice for you to continue
(09:11):
doing what you need to do today. And and this
is this is how we pay homage. We don't have
thousands of dollars to get grantite slabs carved with their names,
but a little bit of sweat and some tears, a
little bit of blood every now and then. Coming up
that hill to pat respect to everyone that's been lost,
Minor sets off looking for the crosses of the men
(09:33):
he knew. Up the hill he finds one made of
four by four posts and anchored by a few heavy rocks.
So this is the one for McDaniels and Dutch. So
I don't know when they brought it up, but it's
gonna have to get replaced pretty soon because they started
falling apart a little bit. The brown paint has flaked
away where two names and dates are carved into the
(09:56):
sagging arms on the left Joshua B. Nick Daniels, June twelve,
two thousand eleven, on the right. Michael J. Dutcher, September
two thousand eleven. I don't know where the one for
Brian is, otherwise I would have found it. We probably
have to remedy that situation when we get the chance.
(10:19):
Minor searches high and low for a marker with the
name of Nicholas O'Brien. The platoons first Kia. Maybe the
timbers gave out to the wind, or maybe O'Brien's name
has been worn away by the elements. But yeah, I'll
have to uh ask him of the guys about it.
Even this profound monument to memory requires people who still
(10:41):
remember to keep it from disintegrating. And most of the
men who knew O'Brien left here years ago. Dutcher is
the one I knew. He's the one I remember, And
when I run my fingers across his name etched into
the timber, it feels like the real start of this journey.
And you can just sit here and just like listen
(11:02):
to the wind blow, and you can almost fill the
presence around you. Afree helicopter thumps across the valley at
eye level, artillery booms from a distant training range. This
(11:23):
is California, all right, but it isn't Hollywood. Minor knows
this scenery and this soundtrack by heart. He doesn't say
a whole lot or show much emotion while we're walking around,
But even though Laura is wearing sunglasses, I can tell
it's all pretty intense for her. She was with Minor
through the entire Sanging deployment and there to catch him
when he came home. Laura, what's it like for you
(11:46):
to come up here? It's a little overwhelming. It's overwhelming
because it kind of brought back those memories like waiting
to hear the news and looking at the articles and
like seeing these names pop up. It's it's really overwhelming,
it really is. I met O'Brien maybe what once bybe
(12:11):
once or twice Dutch. I met him and like he said,
they they're so young, you know, and just like that,
one day after another, you just keept seeing the names
pop up and and I'm just hoping that it's not
your guy the next one. You know, it's really hard.
(12:34):
It's hard, yeah, And you've been up here before. Is
this your first time up here? First? Time. That's why
I wanted to come up here, because I wanted to
pay the homage. Well, I'm glad Michael's hum. Yeah, I
am too. That's what I told him. I said, I
(12:55):
don't care what you do. You come back with all
your fingers, all your toes and your limbs. That's all
I ask. He did. We'll be back after the break. Hi,
(13:35):
it's just us, remember us. After leaving Camp Pendleton, we
drive inland to men A few, where Minor lives with
Laura and her daughter. The house is tucked back in
a new suburban development carved out of dry hills. It's okay,
it's okay. The dogs are never far from Minor's side.
They follow us as he shows us around. It's a
nice house. I like this neighborhood. How long have you
(13:56):
guys been here? The house has high ceilings and it's
decorated with a minimalist touch. There's a big gas grill
in an AstroTurf lawn in the backyard. Check check check.
We set up for the interview in the living room,
with the dogs panting at our feet. I've asked Laura
to join us because, in her own way, she survived
the deployment too, and she's been a support to minor
(14:17):
ever since. Just don't talk to him. But before we
get into any of that, I want to know some
more basic stuff, like how they met a couple of
coworkers and I we decided to go to Vegas. One
of the co workers she had a thing for marines.
It's the Marine Ball. We need to go. There's gonna
be marines. I was just getting over my divorce, so
(14:40):
I was just like, sure, let's go. It was November
two ten, the day of the annual Marine Corps Birthday Ball,
a huge bash celebrating the Marine Corps founding in seventeen seventy.
So I had my yard of booze on walking the strip.
I'm like, I'm trying to have a good time because
I needed to kind of decompress at your yard of booth.
(15:05):
It's Vegas, so m my favorite place on the Strip
is the Bellaggio because of the falls. Laura was standing
by the Bellaggio fountain when the lights went down and
God Bless the USA erupted from the speakers. She was
thinking about her ex husband, who was in the military
and served in a rock. Her buzz was kicking in
(15:27):
and it was all a bit too much. So I'm
just like, this is how could they play this song?
And as they're playing this song, a ce a sea
of marines start walking down the strip. So my friends
going crazy because like all these marines blah. I mean,
(15:47):
for a woman that likes an uniform, I'm just going
to throw it out there. It's just like, wow, look
at them. But they're so young, you know, they're they're
all kids. And that's when Laura sees Minor for the
first time. He walks by. He goes, ma'am, are you okay,
and I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm fine. He goes,
you look like you need a hug, and he hugs me,
(16:10):
and so of course water works. I'm like really sobbing
at this point because he gave me this huge hug.
He's been by my side since. Yeah. That's the story.
(16:34):
It couldn't be more like fireworks. You know, it was
a total rubbing scenario. Funny thing is my friend took
a picture when he hugged me, So this is the
actual picture. This is the actual picture the moment we met.
That is the actual moment. In the photo, Laura's wearing
(16:55):
jeans and a gray tank top. You can't see your face,
but Miners beaming. The flash catches the brass buttons on
his dress blue uniform and his white gloves and hat,
which Marines call a cover. Isn't that funny how that
works that we actually got an image of our actual
meeting moment. That's great. Laura and Minor stayed in contact
(17:17):
after that first fairytale encounter. She's nine years older, and
she kept saying he was too young for her, but
Miner said he didn't care. In the end, Laura didn't either.
They got together whenever he had time off, but the
clock was already ticking. Miner was shipping out to Afghanistan
in a few months. You know, I think the moment
(17:38):
where it really hit home was when he was deployed.
I think that's when it got serious for me, because
I'm just like, oh my gosh, I'm now I'm really involved.
When Miner finally left for Afghanistan in March two thousand eleven,
Laura wanted to show that she was still thinking about him.
That was my thing. I was like, what do you
want when you I'll send you your packages and I
(18:00):
would send as much as I could so that he
could share with everybody. So I was doing what I
could because I'm like, I just need to make sure
they're okay. Minor kept in touch with Laura when he
could through Skype. In the occasional satellite phone call. It
didn't matter what time one coach Hello, I was up
waiting for that call every Skype. There was one time
(18:23):
I missed your Skype and I was kicking myself because
I knew how limited he was on being able to call.
He never had a serious girlfriend back home during his
previous deployments. In fact, he never had much of a
support system at all when he was overseas. He never
knew his father, and his mom worked third shift at
a plastics factory near Seagrove, North Carolina, where he grew up.
(18:45):
She was often at work or asleep when he called,
so it meant a lot to him to know that
Laura would always pick up, even if he didn't have
much to say. It was in zombie mode. Yeah you
could hear it, Yeah you can hear his voice. He
was just completely just exhausted, beyond exhausted. Laura was getting
(19:07):
limited information from Minor, but she followed the reports from
Afghanistan on the computer day and day out, waiting for called,
looking for every update, any information I could get. I'm
I'm like the type that needs to know. I need
to know. But I think when it really really hit
me hard, when I started seeing the names starting to
come through and the fatalities and the and there, I
(19:32):
was like, you've got to be kidding me. Minors Battalion
was getting torn apart, and sang In Marines were being
killed and losing limbs to i e. D. S by
the dozens. When that violence erupted around patrol based fires
in June two thou eleven, mine are worried about how
the younger marines would take it. Here he is back
(19:54):
and sang In. They have short fuses, pretty much like
they haven't really learned how to control their emotions whenever
situations happened. Minor already had two combat deployments to a
Rock under his belt before sanging he was what you
would call salty. You've been around, Yeah, you're twenty five
(20:15):
years old. You're fucking granddad. Compared to these kids, It's
basically what I'm trying to say. So, what's it like
seeing some of these, you know, young kids go through this?
When you have as much experience as you do already.
I came to this already knowing what to expect a
little bit. These guys had no idea. It was at
minors first time witnessing fellow marines being killed, and he
knew how crucial it was to demonstrate calm. When we
(20:38):
took out a mask, I DESI had to control everybody
and like trying to calm them down, and like looking,
so all right, don't worry. I've seen this before. You
don't see me overreacting. You shouldn't be over reacting. I
told him, the day that I overreact about something or
flip out about something would be that I will let them.
He's talking about the June Curse, when Third Squads platoons
(20:59):
suffered three ask casualties in a span of just six days.
When Third Squad's original squad leader got blown up in
the June twelfth mass chasm was met of back to
the States. It was Minor who had to step up.
That was kind of hard, because you know, I wasn't
really used to taking over the squad. I took it.
Over run the squad for a little while, and I
(21:20):
transferred myself from dealing strictly with my fire team to
dealing with the whole squad. So, I mean that was
pretty hard for me. Marines prepare for exactly this situation
when the leaders with the most training and experience are
suddenly knocked out of the fight and the senior marine
standing has to take charge. Minor embraced his new role,
(21:41):
and he was reluctant to let it go when Sergeant
Jeric Fry flew in from the US to replace him
as squad leader a month later. By then, Third Squad
had more than half the deployment behind them, but it
hardly felt like the down slope for the folks waiting
back home. Things were tense until the final days too.
They knew the deployment was supposed to last seven months,
(22:03):
which meant the guys should hit American soil in October
two thousand eleven, but it was all pretty vague. We
didn't know when he was coming home. They wouldn't tell us. Obviously,
his mom would ask me, anybody heard any news. No,
nobody knows. So we had like a Facebook page where
like the families would keep in contact, and so we
finally got a date and um, then it was the
(22:24):
you know anticipation, like When are they going to be here?
When are they gonna be here? On October seventeenth, two
thousand eleven, while the Third Squad Marines made their final
approach into California, their loved ones gathered at Camp Pendleton
holding welcome home signs. We had to wait and wait
and wait, and we saw the bus. They're like, oh,
here it comes the bus. Who are Oh my gosh, finally,
thank god they're here. And the bus got there. It
(22:48):
was another hour or two hours. I don't know if
they're what you guys were doing, but turning our weapons. Yeah,
and we're like, where the heck are they? We're dying.
I mean, I was like, I need to see him,
need to see that he's hold that he's good. Once
the Marines had finished turning in their weapons, they fell
into formation where the families could see them shore enough.
(23:10):
As soon as they started marching out, oh my god,
there he is. I wanted to run to him. And
it wasn't until they stopped and got out of formation
that we finally could go go see them, and like,
I jumped on him. I was like, they got your home, Like,
oh my god. I think after that it was for me.
(23:33):
It was just like, Okay, I really, really really care
about this guy. He looked surprised for me to be there,
the first time I had anybody meet me. When I
came back from the deployment, I said, how cold? How
could it be the first time you ever after having
already three deployments in your built. Because I told my family,
just I'll meet you guys when I can. There's no
(23:55):
point in you guys sitting there waiting for me. But
Laura did wait for him. She held him close, just
as he had embraced her that night in Vegas. I
could tell he was in his own zoned out. It
seemed like if it was surreal to him to be home,
the way Minor remembers that Laura's embrace on the tarmac
(24:17):
that day would help set the course of his homecoming.
It was the warmth that that you need when you're cold.
I was in my own little world, but once I
felt her embrace, and it just like it's slowly awoken,
you know, the way I was before I left, Like
a caterpillar coming out of his cocoon, becoming the butterfly,
(24:39):
not not quite a butterfly, like a manly creature that
comes out of looking like a cicada or something. For
Laura's sake as much as his own, Minor hoped he
(25:00):
could continue the transformation. All right, I'm no longer going
to be the person that she met, so let me
try to get back to halfway, or a little bit
more than halfway to what I was before I left.
I knew he was gonna be different. They were all different.
We're all different. The other guys, they were younger. There
was their first appointment, and for them I could see
(25:23):
the difference. You can see, you know. They left boys
and came back men basically as tight as the squad
had been, and sang and their bonds began to loosen
as soon as they got home. When we got back,
we all took shots. I think Fry his wife brought
like some Jack Daniels or something, and we all took
like shots and Shi and we welcome back and took shots,
(25:45):
and then we went about our lives. Some of the
guys transferred to other units. They made new friends and
got shipped out on overseas cruises with the Navy. After
so much time together, Minor was ready to be away
from the squad. We were do anything for each other,
but I mean, you stare at the same person for
nine months straight and eventually you want to strangle the
funk out of him. It's like they can just like breathe,
(26:07):
like stop sucking breathing. Laura had a front row seat
to Miners decompression. In the beginning. It was a lot
of drinking, a lot to the point where he would
just pass out and he wouldn't talk about it. He
was still at the red line all the time, jacked
up to the point where sleep was impossible. I could
probably drink maybe like twenty beers, and I still it
(26:31):
was still take me about an hour or two after
a drink all that just to fall asleep. And it
wasn't just alcohol down like half a bottle of that
zequal stuff, which most people would like, probably drink a
little capful and knock him right out. After eight years
in the Marines and all that time in combat zones,
Miner had developed some strange rituals. You would literally sleep
(26:52):
with your rifle inside your sleeping bag, and that's that
way you know, it doesn't get messed up, and also
no one can take it from you when you're sleeping
and being so used to having certain things around you.
It's it's an addictive thing, and you're just naturally like
reaching over for it to make sure it's still there,
making sure you're like, all right, I'm good, it's right there,
I'm safe. So what are the things that do you have?
(27:13):
Things now that you find yourself reaching for. Are you
still reaching for those phantom things like your rifle and
your your ammunition, your your body arm or your helmet.
Are you still reaching in your imagination for those same
things and you're like, oh, I don't need I don't
need those anymore. I have to put my phone in
a certain way, I put my watch a certain way,
and then I'll have a Sometimes I'll have a fan on.
But there's moments that I can't have a fan. Um
(27:37):
it gets cold in there, like the dry eyes. But
I usually like, I'll sleep with a fan because when
I was growing up, I would, you know, me and
my mother shared a room. She worked night shift and
I would you know, be in the room asleep, but
she we would always have a fan. So when I
turned a fan on, it makes it tricks my brain
and thinking I'm back home with my family so they're
(28:00):
or when I turn a fan on, I'm I'm done,
I'm out, the term for the condition that Minor describes
as hyper vigilance, basically being in a constant state of
fight or flight mode, on high alert, always scanning for threats.
Hyper Vigilance is a hallmark of post traumatic stress disorder,
or PTSD, a mental health condition you've probably heard of.
(28:22):
Minor was diagnosed with PTSD in two thousand twelve by
the Department of Veterans Affairs, the federal government agency that
provides healthcare and other benefits to veterans. The v A
also evaluated the physical wear and tear for minors military service.
They did like a mr Iron like scanning my ship,
and I have like the bone structure of like a
seven year old man. Do you know what sounds like
(28:44):
when you pour milk on it? That's what I sound
like in the mornings when I wake up, Like my
whole body just like like that right there is just
like me stretching my arm out and that's and then
like my knees will do it. I can even do
it with my nose. Like kids like everything just wait
until everything loads when he walk waits, so he just
has to like go into it. So like when I
(29:07):
wake up tomorrow, because you know, we did the hike
and everything. Today, I'm gonna be like you know, old
people walk with it, a little walkers. That's what I'm
gonna look like until my body just goes, wait a minute,
you're actually up. Okay, hold on, let me let me
get everything going real fast. Minor has a sixty percent
disability rating from the v A tent for knee issues
and fifty for PTSD, which means they determined his military
(29:29):
service reduced his overall health and ability to function by
sixty This rating entitles him to about a thousand dollars
and disability from the v A each month. PTSD is
Miner's biggest issue, and when his memories from A Rock
and Afghanistan surface, it goes like this. My brain will
(29:49):
start playing the images through and it's like a like
a little reel. It'll just go, it goes through all
of them, and then sometimes it will it'll stop on
one moment and then you know, you remember all all
the glory details, and then we'll go to the next
and then it'll slow down. Yeah. So are the memories
any less intense when they do come now? Or they're
still like the day I was I can remember all
(30:12):
the smells, I know all the sounds, I know everything
that was going on. Memories of the June curse stand
out for Minor. I can recall the moments when you know,
we pulled O'Brien up onto the shoreline and we covered
him in an a ponto liner. I can recall the
moments and the sounds of that McDaniels were making in
(30:32):
the moment that you know, we we knew that he
was leaving us. He says. He also clearly remembers the
moment Dutcher got hit. I know there was debris being
thrown up whenever, whenever the Dutcher stepped on the I
and D the way the trees moved from the explosion itself. Um,
I remember it all really, really, really vividly, Minor tells me.
(30:57):
The day Dutcher died started out like any other. The
squad was out on patrol, walking in a single file
formation called a ranger file, with everyone following the path
of the sweeper. You have to patrol single file when
you're over there. It's there's no way of ens or
butts about it. You have to. They walked with big
gaps between them so that if someone stepped on an
(31:18):
I e D. It would be less likely to hurt
the man in front of them or behind them, because
there's so many I D s thrown out all over
the place, and that's the reason why we would travel
through corn fields, we would travel through the canals, and
if we had the availability, we will let the locals
heard their sheep through our patrol paths, so the sheep
would step on it, not us. Dutcher had volunteered to
(31:39):
sweep for i e d S that day because the
squads still didn't have a full time combat engineer after
losing McDaniels, so he was up front with the metal detector.
Minor was toward the rear of the patrol, about seventy
five yards from where Dutcher was. That was making sure
that all of us were out of the canal. The
Taliban hadn't figured out how to put I e d
(31:59):
S in the water yet, so the squad knew they
wouldn't get blown up walking through the canals, but doing
that caused other problems because some of the canals they're
they're like you have steep embankments and sometimes you can
just reach out and grab the grass and pull yourself up,
but we always had something there at the top to
make sure that they actually got up because if they
would fall back, because if we had all the gear,
(32:20):
if they were to fall backwards into the canal, unless
you can get all your gear off, you're going to drown.
Minor was on the bank helping the last guy out
of the canal. Next thing I know all her was,
you know, the explosion. Dutcher had stepped on an I e. D.
(32:42):
Chaos followed. Some of the squad members pulled security while
others made their way to Dutcher's side to treat him,
worrying the whole time about tripping a secondary I e. B. Bolinger,
the radio operator called in a Metavac helicopter and just
like McDaniels, Dutcher still had a pulse when they loaded
him aboard. So what was the mood when Dutcher got
(33:06):
put on the Metavac bird and flown away. It was
surreal and quiet, like no one really No one really
spoke until we got back to the patrol. This Dutcher
died on the helicopter. There were only two weeks left
until third Squad was supposed to leave sang In for good,
(33:27):
and it was one of those like disbelief moments, just
like there's no way that actually fucking happened. Like we're
almost done, how did that happen? Sitting here in Miner's
house ten years after that terrible day, I asked him
(33:51):
what Dutcher was like when he was alive. He tells
me about meeting dutch for the first time. Well, he
had those goof looking fucking glasses on, and he just
he looked out of place, you know, And honestly, he
did not look like he was in the infantory whatsoever.
He looked like he was one of those admin guys.
Like he's like, honest fucking desk jockey right there. Dutcher
(34:13):
had come to the platoon from the Marine Corps Security
Force Regiment, a special unit that protects critical US assets
around the world, like embassies and nuclear weapons. He arrived
at one five to finish out his contract in the
regular infantry. Dutcher was not a hardass. He earned respect
in a different way. Dutcher would, you know, sit there
and read read everything that he needed to. He asked
(34:35):
all the questions that he needed to. He learned really
quick about what he needed to do and how he
needed to do it. So Dutcher had a reputation for
being smart. That was not a reputation, that was a fact.
Tell me a little bit about about how how you
could tell that that he didn't need crayons. We had
(34:56):
these little um a little device like they took your
fingerprint and like photos so we can I d some
of the locals and ship. None of us knew how
to work it. Dutchers like, well, let me get it.
And he didn't even look at the owner. Man, He's like,
what's easy. You just got to do this. It's yours now.
Enjoy Miners talking about the bat hide, that small device
I described in episode one when I talked about photographing
(35:17):
Dutcher gathering biometric data from a villager. Duchess mastery of
the bad Hide and the squad's other electronics impressed Minor.
They were both from North Carolina, but they were cut
from different cloth. He was the brain to the brown
type situation. He would he would think his way through
certain things and I would just fucking hulk smash. That's
(35:38):
the way I've always been. I was just like, no,
funk this, it doesn't work. Okay, We're gonna do it
my way now. But he would be like, no, wait,
let's let's try it this way, or you know, I
think he would think about it, but I was like, no,
this is fucking smashed through it. By the time Dutcher died,
the platoon had already lost two marines O'Brien and McDaniels,
and multiple others have been sent home with missing limbs.
(35:59):
Does the action change with each time or is it
fresh every time? It's fresh every time, but you get
numb to the experience, like, yeah, it sucks when someone
gets hit and when someone gets hurt. But like I said,
I was already numb to a lot of the experiences
going on because I kept everyone close. But it wasn't
like buddy Buddy with a lot of the guys. Minor
(36:21):
told me about this tactic back at patrol based fires
in two thousand eleven. I'll learned through personal experiences and
stuff I've seen, and some of my old seniors used
to tell me, get close, but not too close. That way,
you have no emotional attachments to anybody around because you
never know when their time is. So feeling wise, don't
(36:42):
have to come off as a cold hearted motherfucker, because
I really don't see the difference easier said than done. Now,
Miner tells me he had, in fact let his guard
down and sang in before Dutcher died with O'Brien and
just dropped the ball when it came to O'Brien because
I I just got a little too closely. Again. It
hit me really, really hard because I used to hang
(37:05):
out with the guy, used to well we used to
uh drink water together at the barracks late at night
and smoke cigarettes. Um. He wasn't twenty one, but this
is all euphemism for you got used to drink together. Well,
we used to drink water together. Yeah, Um, but I
just got I let my guard down with him because
you know, we're from the same state and at the
(37:26):
time we were to the same rink. The explosion that
killed O'Brien ripped his body in half and launched his
torso into a canal, and third Squad received the awful
mission of searching for O'Brien scattered body parts. We had
to take him out of some of the trees and
stuff and pulling out of the water. I definitely definitely
hit different cord at that time, and that's when I
(37:48):
knew I was just like, and this is the reason
why you don't want to get too close. And so
when Dutcher died three months later, Minor was already closed up.
That's the way I treated everyone after after that situation,
A threw O'Brien. It's like, I got close, but I
didn't let myself. I didn't open myself up any more
than what I did with him. When they finally arrived
(38:13):
at Camp Pendleton, Minor found Laura waiting for him on
the tarmac and with her hope for something better. His
boots had barely hit us soil when he made a
decision he'd had it with the Marine Corps. I just said,
you know, I'm done. I'm not going anymore, because I
knew that was I'm not going on any more deployments.
I was like, I'm dropping my pack and I'm out.
(38:42):
We'll be back after the break. Miners growing relationship with
(39:16):
Laura kept him grounded as he transitioned into civilian life.
But it's not like things were peaceful for him. Some
nights he would drink to fall asleep to defeat the
hyper vigilance that kept him wired. Other times he'd get
hammered to try to unlock emotions that he couldn't access
when he was sober. And those nights that I would
drink a lot, I would just let it all just
(39:37):
flew through. When you say you would let it all
flow through, I would let all the emotions and everything
that I went through just rush over me. So what
would happen? Crying, sobbing, sitting there like wondering why? Why?
What could I have done? What could I have done
to this? How could I have changed that? Um? You know,
(39:59):
like there was a few moments when I was like, damn,
that should have been me, you know, I should have
been on that patrol and not them, or it should
have been me upfront and not those guys. And I
would just sit there and just let it just overtake me.
I would ride the wave per se, and once it
got done hit the shore line, I would, you know,
gather myself up and go on about what I was
(40:20):
supposed to be doing. And did you feel better after that?
I felt a lot better after it. But the drinking
is also a form of numbing, and it's a form
of numbing and kind of makes you feel less of
the emotions than what you would if you weren't drinking.
They're intense emotions, but it will be a less a
(40:42):
little bit less intense. It's it's like when you when
you cook with a pressure cooker, you have to release
some of the tension and the cooker otherwise this is
going to explode on you. So did you figure out
how to do all that stuff on your own? Or
did you go to therapy? I did it on my own.
And my thing about therapy is the only way a
psychi just can actually help you as if they went
through the same s ship that you went through. Because
(41:03):
you can go to Harvard freaking and get like the
best freaking schooling you can for psychiatry. But unless someone
experienced the ship that you've experienced, there's nothing they can
say to you to help you out. There's nothing. This
is Miner's opinion, and I respect it, but I don't
really agree. I don't think a therapist needs to experience
(41:24):
combat firsthand in order to help veterans get relief from PTSD.
But I can understand where Miners coming from. He says
he doesn't want to try therapy and he definitely doesn't
want pills. He wants to deal with it on his own.
He's drinking less these days, and says he's having an
easier time accessing his emotions while sober, and he's got
Laura to lean on too. As we're talking, Laura and
(41:48):
Minor scoot close to each other on the couch. She's
been quiet for a while, so have you heard most
of this stuff before? He has talked to me like there.
I think he's game more trust in me to kind
of let me know this kind of stuff, and I
think he's grown to kind of get through it a
(42:08):
little bit more as time goes by. But old habits
die hard. There are days like when the anniversaries come up,
I do see him like pecking up the fridge or
not as much anymore because I hound him on it um.
There were several times where I just saw him just wasted, wasted,
(42:29):
passed out, and it's not an image you want to see.
But it's also like, well, what do you do? Deployments
are tough on relationships and so is PTSD, So it's
no small feat that Laura and minors relationship has gotten
stronger since he came home. I think being together kind
of helped him a little bit. I'm hoping the transition
(42:50):
because he's he's not as big of an a hole
as he used to be, because he is, he's he's
he can be an asshole, a complete asshole, and and
he will be very now and then it comes out
because he is he putting on his best is he
on his best behavior right now? He yes, this is
the nice mike, this is the mic we like. And
(43:14):
for me, it's like I can't even fathom having to
see something like that he's gone through. It hurts me
too to know that he's had to go through that,
that they all had to go through that. Laura knows
how war has affected Minor. She lives with it every day,
but as with so many veterans, minor psychological and emotional
(43:35):
wounds are invisible to most people outside of his home.
There's guys that you know, we've worked with that have
you know, like amputees and like they have prosthetics and
ship that's that's the first giveaway for a lot of people.
But there's like people like me, I have very very
minimal like scarring on my body from from all the
experiences I have, but most of my ship is it's
(43:57):
mental psychological trauma has been a by product of war
and violence forever. Even though PTSD only became a formally
recognized diagnosis in the nineteen eighties. These days, PTSD is
a fairly common diagnosis. For better or worse, it's become
a household term. Part of me thinks everybody has heard
(44:17):
a very cliche version of the PTSD story, like to
the point where they either think that we're Chris Kyle
American sniper superheroes who are like indestructible, or they think
that we are like hiding in our basement, you know,
and surrounded by a bottle of a pile of beer
bottles and empty pill bottles, like there's no in between.
(44:38):
It's much more complicated. It's more complicated than two scenarios. Man.
That's the reason why I said earlier, I won't talk
to anyone unless they have similar experiences, because then they
at least understand where you're coming from. I'm not surprised
to hear minors say this. He's already said he won't
talk to a shrink who hasn't been to war, and
I remember him telling me back in Sangin that he
(44:58):
didn't plan on talking to civilian in about his combat
experiences for the same reason. We play that clip for him.
What do you think he'll tell people back home about
this place your friends, and I'll tell them ship. Tell
me why they don't need to know this ship. No
one needs to know the ship that we go through,
because if they started asking us questions about the ship
(45:20):
we go through, they would they wouldn't have any understanding
because they were never there. They wouldn't know what you felt.
They wouldn't know how it affected you mentally and physically.
They wouldn't know how to approach you after you told
them something that happened, you know, I mean, they wouldn't
have any idea of what it feels like too hold
(45:41):
of a turniquet on somebody's leg while you're watching them
bleed away. They wouldn't know any of that. Do you
still feel that way? They're still in the point like
some of the people that I have told some of
the stuff too, they don't. They don't treat me the
same anymore. They treat me like I'm a fragile a
little like almost like a grenade with the pen being
(46:03):
pulled on it. They just have to like make sure
that they don't do anything to trigger me. And it
irritates me the most is because treat me like you
would anyone else. Patronizing is one of the least enjoyable
things I've ever had to endure before. When I told
somebody some some of the stuff I've done, I can't
stand it. I would rather tell somebody go to go
(46:24):
funk myself after I told him a story. Didn't have
someone try to patronize me, like, um, thank you for
your service, for example. I mean, that's that's that's like
the go to thing. Because most people don't know how
to approach a veteran. Just just walk up to us,
talk to us, like have a normal conversation as if
you were talking to you know, your neighbor or your friend.
(46:45):
You can ask her when somebody says that stuff and
was like, thank you, and I just go on about
my business because you hear it all the dawn time.
I never know what to say when people say that.
I know you're dumbfounded because you're just like, well, funk,
thank you for your service, thank you for thanking me,
well fuck you know, thank you for being a civilian.
This is a good example of something that's known as
(47:07):
the civilian military divide, the cultural barrier between people who
have served and people who haven't. One of the things
you hear a lot when veterans talk about how frustrated
they are about how civilians talk to them about their
experience is they say, the first thing civilians always ask
you is did you kill anyone? Or how many people
did you kill? And I can obviously why are you laughing?
(47:31):
Because that's actually the first question they asked. It's like
how many people would you kill? So what do you
when people ask you that? What do you? What do
you say? Seven? And is do you just pull that
number out of a hatter? Is that the truth? Foreign Iraq?
And in three in the citation in Afghanistan? So you
(47:56):
would tell a stranger that who asked, no, I would
not tell you. You're just telling me. I'm telling you
to help bring awareness. But I will tell a stranger
to go fund himself so he has no funking need
to know? Like why why is that your first instinct?
This isn't fucking call of duty? Like why is that? Well?
How many people should you kill? Clearly not enough? You're
still alive? Like I don't understand. I understand, like what
(48:19):
goes through their fucking heads? But what do you think?
I mean? Why why do you think I don't know. Honestly,
I couldn't tell you. My family doesn't even know how
many people have killed. Asking a veteran how many people
they've killed is about as clumsy of a first question
as you could possibly ask. But I can kind of
understand it. When we're kids, we learned that killing is
(48:40):
the worst crime a person can commit. But then we
send young people off to war to kill on our behalf,
and when they come home, we don't talk about it.
We talk a lot about the people who get hurt,
we talk a lot about the people who get killed,
we talk a lot about the suicides, but we don't
talk about the killing. And war is killing just as
much as it is dying. And so I wonder, like,
(49:01):
for you, you know what, how has that factored? Like
obviously seeing not faed by it all by killing someone,
Shooting someone in the line of duty doesn't bother And
what does other mean to them? It's literally like fight
or flight, And there's no way in hell I'm run
from a fight, especially when I know people that around
(49:23):
me could get hurt. So if it doesn't phase you
that you did it in the moment because it was
kill or be killed, you really were fighting for your
life to save your yourself and your friends and all
of that. Then why is it offensive for people to
ask the question? It's offensive because they don't need to
(49:45):
know that information. It's like if I walked up to
you and go, how many girls have you fucked? You know,
it's like like that. It's like, how is that any
of my business? Like it's it's way too fucking personal
to ask when you first meet someone, Right, it's hard
(50:10):
to imagine Minor talking to people who never served about
any aspect of the war back in sang And he
told me he didn't think too highly of civilians. I
can't stand the people as it is, because they're just winers,
like they want everything handed to them and but they
don't want to work to get it. You ask someone
(50:32):
in America to do something for you, they want to
give you that fund yourself. Look what the fund are
you gonna do for me? But being in the military,
just like he really thinking, helped me all this. Look
like you didn't worry about it. I'll help you out.
So I mean, it's like everyone that's civilian is like
conceded about me. Me, me, me me. Despite the fact
that Minor is a civilian now he says his perspective
(50:53):
hasn't changed. It's still true. I completely agree with everything
that's smart ass handsel Men said, he still thinks civilians
take things for granted, and he still thinks there's no
point talking to him. Even after being out of uniform
all these years. The barrier between us and them remains clear.
To Minor, he works the night shift at a convenience
(51:15):
store near his house, and he says he can tell
whether a customer was ever in the military as soon
as they approached the counter. You can tell the difference
because the veterans, we carry ourselves a lot differently. We
carry ourselves with a little bit more more pride than
what a normal person would, because you know, we've we've
we we've signed on that dotted line and we agreed
to you know, pay that ultimate second was we agreed
(51:37):
to go as far as we needed to. The idea
that veterans are defined by pride and selflessness while civilians
are defined by hunt shoulders and a me me me
attitude just doesn't square with my experience on both sides
of the divide. In fact, the longer I'm out of uniform,
the more I think the veterans are civilians, and they're
just as varied in their personalities and values. Summer saints,
(52:00):
summer ship bags, and most fall somewhere in between. As
for the US in that attitude, I just don't think
it helps anyone. I tell Minor all of this, and
I asked him, is it up to us veterans to
talk more, to explain to people what it was like?
Is it up to us to bridge the divide? What
we need to do is a lot of veterans. What
we need to do is we need to start making
(52:20):
sex tapes. When you start putting gorilla glue in our hair,
anything remotely dumb and stupid, make TikTok videos. What we're
fucking eating tide pods and fucking snorting condoms. Stupid ship
is what gets people's attention. I swear I think the
world now is um like the the the attention span
of a fucking Labrador retriever. Oh squirrel, Oh squirrel. For Minor,
(52:43):
the biggest kick in the balls. The thing he really
can't get over is that civilians are just not interested
in what he and his fellow marines did in Afghanistan.
They don't they don't care. It's not in their backyard.
But you care, right? I care? Yeah, fun, yeah, I
care well, assuming like too many good people for people
just not to give a shit about it because they
(53:04):
get tired of, oh, we're at war, we don't want
to hear about it. Fuck you, you're losing a good
American people who would literally throw their life on the
line even if they were back here. They would throw
themselves in front of danger just to protect your spoiled ass.
Come on, they deserve more respect than that. It's getting
late and it's been a long day. Before we wrap.
(53:26):
I'm curious to know what Minor thinks about his own
evolution over the last decade. So do you think you
got halfway back to the person you were before? I'll never,
you know, be whole after some of the stuff that
we've seen. No one, no one in the right mind
will ever be whole unless you're like fucking damer or
in those fucking serial killer people that there's probably the
(53:47):
only ones that would like, oh this is cool, you
know um, But no, I mean maybe if you had
to put a percentage, probably eight eight five somewhere in there.
I'll never get back to to the ash whole that
I was apparently, but you feel like you've gotten back
some of what I've gotten back a little bit of
my humanity, but there's there's certain parts of me that
(54:09):
I I kind of I still want to feel the pain,
because if you get past that point and you forget
a lot of the stuff that you went through, you
will never know how you're going to succeed in the future.
The next morning is the start of another gorgeous California day,
(54:32):
and for the first time in weeks, I feel well rested.
I finally got a good night's sleep. I'm not gonna lie.
I've been extremely anxious about this whole trip. I'm gonna
ask every one of these guys to talk to me
about things they don't really talk about with anyone, not
their families, not their friends, not even their fellow veterans.
(54:54):
And I'm also going to be looking into a lot
of dark places in my own memory and in my heart.
So I sort of wish we could hang out here
for a while, kick back on one of those deserted
beaches near Camp Pendleton, maybe even rent a board in
a wet suit, But the mission cannot be delayed. Tommy
and I have to hulk smash a mile drive to Houston.
(55:16):
As for Minor, when the anniversaries come around again and
the next wave of memories rolls in from Sangon, I
hope the ride isn't too rough. And when he hits
the shoreline and gathers himself up, I hope he reaches
for Laura. Third Squad is written and produced by Elliott Woods,
(55:44):
Tommy Andreas, and Maria Byrne. It's an Heirloom Media production
distributed by iHeart Media, funding support from the National Endowment
for the Humanities and collaboration with the Center for Warren
Society at San Diego State University. Original music by Mondo Boys,
editing and sound design by John Ward. Fact checking by
(56:05):
Ben Kalin. Special thanks to Scott Carrier, Benjamin Bush, caitlinsh
Carrie Gracie, Kevin Connolly, Lena Ferguson, and Nick Ward. If
you'd like to see my photographs from Sangin and from
our road trip, please visit Third Squad dot com. You
can find me on Instagram and Twitter at Elliott Woods.
(56:32):
Before we go, if you are someone you know is
suffering from PTSD, please know there's help, and if you're
a veteran, you can get it for free from the
v A. Visit Mental Health dot v A dot gov
for more information. If you're having thoughts about suicide or
self harm, please call the Veterans Crisis Line immediately at
one to seven, three, eight to five f
Third Squad is a podcast about war. Every episode contains
strong language and descriptions of violence that may not be
suitable for all listeners. Also, this is episode two. If
you haven't listened to episode one, you might want to
start there. Everything will make a lot more sense. That's out.
(00:24):
Did you think it was someone else? Right now? It's
March in America's chaotic withdrawal from Afghanistan is still five
months in the future. But right now I'm at the
airport in San Diego to pick up my friend and
Third Squad producer, Tommy Andres. He's going to join me
on that road trip I told you about in the
(00:45):
last episode, the one from California to North Carolina that
Michael Dutcher never got to take. Fow you brought a
lot of ship. I'm really glad this is all you have.
I did bring a blow dry. The zero hour has
finally arrived, and we've got a rendezvous scheduled with Michael Minor,
the first of the Third Squad Marines on our itinerary.
(01:06):
He lives here in California and he's going to show
us around Camp Pendleton's, where Third Squad lived and trained
before sangin. So we stuffed Tommy's gear into the rental
car and we head north alright, crossing onto the Base
Marine Corps Base Camp Pendleton. Christian Needos Gates. Ei, there,
what do you need a driver's license? Okay, cool? Thank you?
(01:29):
All right. This is where it all began for Third Squad,
Camp San Mateo, among the fighting fifth Marines. That's not
an exaggeration. I'm Elliott Woods. This is Third Squad episode two,
(01:49):
Riding the Wave. It's been ten years since I last
saw Michael Minor back at Patrol bass Fires when he
was weighed down with body armor and wearing camo. But
I recognize him immediately when we pull into the parking lot.
What's up? Not much long time? No see elbow bump?
(02:17):
How are you all right? Man? I about you guys
hanging in there? So tell me about who do we
have here? Miner's got his two dogs with him, Bella
and Kenny Bella. He was twenty five when we met
back in Sangin, one of the oldest guys in the squad.
Now he's thirty five and he's got some new wrinkles
around his eyes. Okay. His fiancee is also joining us
(02:40):
for the day. Hi, I'm Elliott. Must be Laura Miners,
wearing a faded black hoodie that looks like it might
be his new uniform. The kangaroo pockets torn on one side,
and it's got the Geronimo head logo of the first Battalion,
fifth Marines, the battalion that Third Squad belonged to, and
or slogan make peace or Die. But it's been uh
(03:04):
since two thousand twelves last time I was down here.
Nothing has changed, for the trees got taller. We're standing
in front of the barracks where Minor lived with the
rest of Third Squad. It's a plane brick building with
concrete walkways around each floor and exterior doors to the
rooms like a motel. There's my old room, and the
room there on the end had bed books, and O'Brien
(03:26):
stayed in that room right there next to it. There
are a bunch of other barracks and headquarters buildings nearby
that all looked pretty much the same, almost like if
a prison architect got to design a college campus, which fits,
since being in the military is kind of like being
a prisoner and a member of a huge fraternity at
the same time. It's a fraternity. Yeah, but I mean
(03:46):
we get paid to drink and shoot guns. But at
the same time, the reason why you're drinking both that
carmauderies because when you get deployed, the guys your left
and you're right, that's who your that's your life is
in their hands. You have to break down all barriers
when you for meet someone and instill that trust in
them to know that they're gonna be able to pull
you through any situation you get into. Now, do you
(04:06):
feel anything when you come back here? So shitty the barracks.
That's about it. It's no nostalgia, No, none of those
you know, poetic feelings, none of those wheat grounds. We're
not poets. There are a lot of jokes in the
military about how Marines are not exactly known for their intelligence. Well,
everybody thinks marines are dumb and wheat crayons and like
(04:28):
jar head instance, because you know, the jar is always
empty unless you put something in there. Here's a more
charitable definition of jar head. Because of their single minded
willingness to put their duty before themselves, Marines are said
to have jar heads, hard on the outside and empty
on the inside. We're here more than anything to see
a memorial to that single minded willingness to put duty
(04:51):
before self. And that's that's the first sergeants who sure
you still want to go up? From a distance. First,
a Agent's hill just looks like a gentle, grassy slope,
maybe a couple hundred feet tall, but the trail to
the top is slick from yesterday's rain and years of
runoff have carved a deep trench down the center. All right,
shall we? All right? And that's when Tommy comes in
(05:15):
for the fn G treatment, the fucking new guy. I mean,
it's it's not as intimidating as it looks. Man, I'll
be fine. Also, you know, Tommy, if things got heavy,
I would carry your stuff for you. I would do
that for you. It's very sweet. I appreciate it. It
probably won't come as a surprise to you. That ship
talking is baked into the bro culture of the military.
(05:35):
We tease Tommy about his new boots and his skinny
jeans and the fact that he brought a blow dryer
on the trip. Blow dryer for the fucking Sorry, this
is a podcast about me getting made fun of me
getting Oh there's some there's some guys you'll meet that
will give you a little bit more ship than me.
I'm actually one of the tame ones. Ye all right.
(06:06):
Pretty soon it starts to feel like more of a
climb than a hike ship. It's been a while. At
one especially steep spot, our feet slip out from under us,
and we dropped to all fours. Stuff called that other
side might actually be easier because it's dry to date.
(06:27):
What have I got myself into? Holy grab. After a
few false summits, a cluster of wooden crosses comes into view.
Mind blowing huh, you wouldn't expect me worry. The first
(06:51):
crosses I see bristle out from a huge pile of boulders.
There's a heap of telephone poles and truck tires and
sandbags wrapped and ducked tape. That all that is ship
that we carried up the hill. This is about everybody
who survived the deployments. The crosses are handmade out of lumber,
(07:15):
dozens of them, stretched back for hundreds of yards from
that first cluster, up and over grassy meadow, overlooking the
barracks to the north and the ocean to the west.
Because this right here is where the true heroes of
the Fifth and Marines law. These are the ones that
paid the price. Each of these memorials bears the name
(07:44):
of someone who didn't come home, carved into the wood,
or painted with stencils. They're all different, each one decorated
with some combination of military belts, rank insignia, T shirts,
and threadbare flags, beer cans, and I consumed bottles of
liquor rest at some of their bases. So you haven't
(08:05):
been up here in nine years. The last time I
came up here, I was pretty pretty drunk. No way,
I didn't feel the hill. What about what's at the
top of the hill. Did you feel that? Oh? Yeah,
you can feel it instantly once you walk up here. Man,
just all the memories and you just feel the presence
like you guys don't know if you felt it when
you walked up, but it's just a sense of overwhelming
(08:27):
feeling of oh ship, here we go. These crosses represent
the dead from the fifth Marines and the supporting units
that served with them, including the Navy Corman, the sailors
who care for the wounded Marines in combat. Almost all
(08:50):
of them are k I a s Killed in action
from a rock and Afghanistan. We used to. I don't
know if they still do it at all. The new guys,
we always make them come up here, and you want
them to see what they're fighting for is not only
their friends and their family and you know, for the country.
But you're keeping these guys memories alive. These are the
warriors who pay the ultimate sacrifice for you to continue
(09:11):
doing what you need to do today. And and this
is this is how we pay homage. We don't have
thousands of dollars to get grantite slabs carved with their names,
but a little bit of sweat and some tears, a
little bit of blood every now and then. Coming up
that hill to pat respect to everyone that's been lost,
Minor sets off looking for the crosses of the men
(09:33):
he knew. Up the hill he finds one made of
four by four posts and anchored by a few heavy rocks.
So this is the one for McDaniels and Dutch. So
I don't know when they brought it up, but it's
gonna have to get replaced pretty soon because they started
falling apart a little bit. The brown paint has flaked
away where two names and dates are carved into the
(09:56):
sagging arms on the left Joshua B. Nick Daniels, June twelve,
two thousand eleven, on the right. Michael J. Dutcher, September
two thousand eleven. I don't know where the one for
Brian is, otherwise I would have found it. We probably
have to remedy that situation when we get the chance.
(10:19):
Minor searches high and low for a marker with the
name of Nicholas O'Brien. The platoons first Kia. Maybe the
timbers gave out to the wind, or maybe O'Brien's name
has been worn away by the elements. But yeah, I'll
have to uh ask him of the guys about it.
Even this profound monument to memory requires people who still
(10:41):
remember to keep it from disintegrating. And most of the
men who knew O'Brien left here years ago. Dutcher is
the one I knew. He's the one I remember, And
when I run my fingers across his name etched into
the timber, it feels like the real start of this journey.
And you can just sit here and just like listen
(11:02):
to the wind blow, and you can almost fill the
presence around you. Afree helicopter thumps across the valley at
eye level, artillery booms from a distant training range. This
(11:23):
is California, all right, but it isn't Hollywood. Minor knows
this scenery and this soundtrack by heart. He doesn't say
a whole lot or show much emotion while we're walking around,
But even though Laura is wearing sunglasses, I can tell
it's all pretty intense for her. She was with Minor
through the entire Sanging deployment and there to catch him
when he came home. Laura, what's it like for you
(11:46):
to come up here? It's a little overwhelming. It's overwhelming
because it kind of brought back those memories like waiting
to hear the news and looking at the articles and
like seeing these names pop up. It's it's really overwhelming,
it really is. I met O'Brien maybe what once bybe
(12:11):
once or twice Dutch. I met him and like he said,
they they're so young, you know, and just like that,
one day after another, you just keept seeing the names
pop up and and I'm just hoping that it's not
your guy the next one. You know, it's really hard.
(12:34):
It's hard, yeah, And you've been up here before. Is
this your first time up here? First? Time. That's why
I wanted to come up here, because I wanted to
pay the homage. Well, I'm glad Michael's hum. Yeah, I
am too. That's what I told him. I said, I
(12:55):
don't care what you do. You come back with all
your fingers, all your toes and your limbs. That's all
I ask. He did. We'll be back after the break. Hi,
(13:35):
it's just us, remember us. After leaving Camp Pendleton, we
drive inland to men A few, where Minor lives with
Laura and her daughter. The house is tucked back in
a new suburban development carved out of dry hills. It's okay,
it's okay. The dogs are never far from Minor's side.
They follow us as he shows us around. It's a
nice house. I like this neighborhood. How long have you
(13:56):
guys been here? The house has high ceilings and it's
decorated with a minimalist touch. There's a big gas grill
in an AstroTurf lawn in the backyard. Check check check.
We set up for the interview in the living room,
with the dogs panting at our feet. I've asked Laura
to join us because, in her own way, she survived
the deployment too, and she's been a support to minor
(14:17):
ever since. Just don't talk to him. But before we
get into any of that, I want to know some
more basic stuff, like how they met a couple of
coworkers and I we decided to go to Vegas. One
of the co workers she had a thing for marines.
It's the Marine Ball. We need to go. There's gonna
be marines. I was just getting over my divorce, so
(14:40):
I was just like, sure, let's go. It was November
two ten, the day of the annual Marine Corps Birthday Ball,
a huge bash celebrating the Marine Corps founding in seventeen seventy.
So I had my yard of booze on walking the strip.
I'm like, I'm trying to have a good time because
I needed to kind of decompress at your yard of booth.
(15:05):
It's Vegas, so m my favorite place on the Strip
is the Bellaggio because of the falls. Laura was standing
by the Bellaggio fountain when the lights went down and
God Bless the USA erupted from the speakers. She was
thinking about her ex husband, who was in the military
and served in a rock. Her buzz was kicking in
(15:27):
and it was all a bit too much. So I'm
just like, this is how could they play this song?
And as they're playing this song, a ce a sea
of marines start walking down the strip. So my friends
going crazy because like all these marines blah. I mean,
(15:47):
for a woman that likes an uniform, I'm just going
to throw it out there. It's just like, wow, look
at them. But they're so young, you know, they're they're
all kids. And that's when Laura sees Minor for the
first time. He walks by. He goes, ma'am, are you okay,
and I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm fine. He goes,
you look like you need a hug, and he hugs me,
(16:10):
and so of course water works. I'm like really sobbing
at this point because he gave me this huge hug.
He's been by my side since. Yeah. That's the story.
(16:34):
It couldn't be more like fireworks. You know, it was
a total rubbing scenario. Funny thing is my friend took
a picture when he hugged me, So this is the
actual picture. This is the actual picture the moment we met.
That is the actual moment. In the photo, Laura's wearing
(16:55):
jeans and a gray tank top. You can't see your face,
but Miners beaming. The flash catches the brass buttons on
his dress blue uniform and his white gloves and hat,
which Marines call a cover. Isn't that funny how that
works that we actually got an image of our actual
meeting moment. That's great. Laura and Minor stayed in contact
(17:17):
after that first fairytale encounter. She's nine years older, and
she kept saying he was too young for her, but
Miner said he didn't care. In the end, Laura didn't either.
They got together whenever he had time off, but the
clock was already ticking. Miner was shipping out to Afghanistan
in a few months. You know, I think the moment
(17:38):
where it really hit home was when he was deployed.
I think that's when it got serious for me, because
I'm just like, oh my gosh, I'm now I'm really involved.
When Miner finally left for Afghanistan in March two thousand eleven,
Laura wanted to show that she was still thinking about him.
That was my thing. I was like, what do you
want when you I'll send you your packages and I
(18:00):
would send as much as I could so that he
could share with everybody. So I was doing what I
could because I'm like, I just need to make sure
they're okay. Minor kept in touch with Laura when he
could through Skype. In the occasional satellite phone call. It
didn't matter what time one coach Hello, I was up
waiting for that call every Skype. There was one time
(18:23):
I missed your Skype and I was kicking myself because
I knew how limited he was on being able to call.
He never had a serious girlfriend back home during his
previous deployments. In fact, he never had much of a
support system at all when he was overseas. He never
knew his father, and his mom worked third shift at
a plastics factory near Seagrove, North Carolina, where he grew up.
(18:45):
She was often at work or asleep when he called,
so it meant a lot to him to know that
Laura would always pick up, even if he didn't have
much to say. It was in zombie mode. Yeah you
could hear it, Yeah you can hear his voice. He
was just completely just exhausted, beyond exhausted. Laura was getting
(19:07):
limited information from Minor, but she followed the reports from
Afghanistan on the computer day and day out, waiting for called,
looking for every update, any information I could get. I'm
I'm like the type that needs to know. I need
to know. But I think when it really really hit
me hard, when I started seeing the names starting to
come through and the fatalities and the and there, I
(19:32):
was like, you've got to be kidding me. Minors Battalion
was getting torn apart, and sang In Marines were being
killed and losing limbs to i e. D. S by
the dozens. When that violence erupted around patrol based fires
in June two thou eleven, mine are worried about how
the younger marines would take it. Here he is back
(19:54):
and sang In. They have short fuses, pretty much like
they haven't really learned how to control their emotions whenever
situations happened. Minor already had two combat deployments to a
Rock under his belt before sanging he was what you
would call salty. You've been around, Yeah, you're twenty five
(20:15):
years old. You're fucking granddad. Compared to these kids, It's
basically what I'm trying to say. So, what's it like
seeing some of these, you know, young kids go through this?
When you have as much experience as you do already.
I came to this already knowing what to expect a
little bit. These guys had no idea. It was at
minors first time witnessing fellow marines being killed, and he
knew how crucial it was to demonstrate calm. When we
(20:38):
took out a mask, I DESI had to control everybody
and like trying to calm them down, and like looking,
so all right, don't worry. I've seen this before. You
don't see me overreacting. You shouldn't be over reacting. I
told him, the day that I overreact about something or
flip out about something would be that I will let them.
He's talking about the June Curse, when Third Squads platoons
(20:59):
suffered three ask casualties in a span of just six days.
When Third Squad's original squad leader got blown up in
the June twelfth mass chasm was met of back to
the States. It was Minor who had to step up.
That was kind of hard, because you know, I wasn't
really used to taking over the squad. I took it.
Over run the squad for a little while, and I
(21:20):
transferred myself from dealing strictly with my fire team to
dealing with the whole squad. So, I mean that was
pretty hard for me. Marines prepare for exactly this situation
when the leaders with the most training and experience are
suddenly knocked out of the fight and the senior marine
standing has to take charge. Minor embraced his new role,
(21:41):
and he was reluctant to let it go when Sergeant
Jeric Fry flew in from the US to replace him
as squad leader a month later. By then, Third Squad
had more than half the deployment behind them, but it
hardly felt like the down slope for the folks waiting
back home. Things were tense until the final days too.
They knew the deployment was supposed to last seven months,
(22:03):
which meant the guys should hit American soil in October
two thousand eleven, but it was all pretty vague. We
didn't know when he was coming home. They wouldn't tell us. Obviously,
his mom would ask me, anybody heard any news. No,
nobody knows. So we had like a Facebook page where
like the families would keep in contact, and so we
finally got a date and um, then it was the
(22:24):
you know anticipation, like When are they going to be here?
When are they gonna be here? On October seventeenth, two
thousand eleven, while the Third Squad Marines made their final
approach into California, their loved ones gathered at Camp Pendleton
holding welcome home signs. We had to wait and wait
and wait, and we saw the bus. They're like, oh,
here it comes the bus. Who are Oh my gosh, finally,
thank god they're here. And the bus got there. It
(22:48):
was another hour or two hours. I don't know if
they're what you guys were doing, but turning our weapons. Yeah,
and we're like, where the heck are they? We're dying.
I mean, I was like, I need to see him,
need to see that he's hold that he's good. Once
the Marines had finished turning in their weapons, they fell
into formation where the families could see them shore enough.
(23:10):
As soon as they started marching out, oh my god,
there he is. I wanted to run to him. And
it wasn't until they stopped and got out of formation
that we finally could go go see them, and like,
I jumped on him. I was like, they got your home, Like,
oh my god. I think after that it was for me.
(23:33):
It was just like, Okay, I really, really really care
about this guy. He looked surprised for me to be there,
the first time I had anybody meet me. When I
came back from the deployment, I said, how cold? How
could it be the first time you ever after having
already three deployments in your built. Because I told my family,
just I'll meet you guys when I can. There's no
(23:55):
point in you guys sitting there waiting for me. But
Laura did wait for him. She held him close, just
as he had embraced her that night in Vegas. I
could tell he was in his own zoned out. It
seemed like if it was surreal to him to be home,
the way Minor remembers that Laura's embrace on the tarmac
(24:17):
that day would help set the course of his homecoming.
It was the warmth that that you need when you're cold.
I was in my own little world, but once I
felt her embrace, and it just like it's slowly awoken,
you know, the way I was before I left, Like
a caterpillar coming out of his cocoon, becoming the butterfly,
(24:39):
not not quite a butterfly, like a manly creature that
comes out of looking like a cicada or something. For
Laura's sake as much as his own, Minor hoped he
(25:00):
could continue the transformation. All right, I'm no longer going
to be the person that she met, so let me
try to get back to halfway, or a little bit
more than halfway to what I was before I left.
I knew he was gonna be different. They were all different.
We're all different. The other guys, they were younger. There
was their first appointment, and for them I could see
(25:23):
the difference. You can see, you know. They left boys
and came back men basically as tight as the squad
had been, and sang and their bonds began to loosen
as soon as they got home. When we got back,
we all took shots. I think Fry his wife brought
like some Jack Daniels or something, and we all took
like shots and Shi and we welcome back and took shots,
(25:45):
and then we went about our lives. Some of the
guys transferred to other units. They made new friends and
got shipped out on overseas cruises with the Navy. After
so much time together, Minor was ready to be away
from the squad. We were do anything for each other,
but I mean, you stare at the same person for
nine months straight and eventually you want to strangle the
funk out of him. It's like they can just like breathe,
(26:07):
like stop sucking breathing. Laura had a front row seat
to Miners decompression. In the beginning. It was a lot
of drinking, a lot to the point where he would
just pass out and he wouldn't talk about it. He
was still at the red line all the time, jacked
up to the point where sleep was impossible. I could
probably drink maybe like twenty beers, and I still it
(26:31):
was still take me about an hour or two after
a drink all that just to fall asleep. And it
wasn't just alcohol down like half a bottle of that
zequal stuff, which most people would like, probably drink a
little capful and knock him right out. After eight years
in the Marines and all that time in combat zones,
Miner had developed some strange rituals. You would literally sleep
(26:52):
with your rifle inside your sleeping bag, and that's that
way you know, it doesn't get messed up, and also
no one can take it from you when you're sleeping
and being so used to having certain things around you.
It's it's an addictive thing, and you're just naturally like
reaching over for it to make sure it's still there,
making sure you're like, all right, I'm good, it's right there,
I'm safe. So what are the things that do you have?
(27:13):
Things now that you find yourself reaching for. Are you
still reaching for those phantom things like your rifle and
your your ammunition, your your body arm or your helmet.
Are you still reaching in your imagination for those same
things and you're like, oh, I don't need I don't
need those anymore. I have to put my phone in
a certain way, I put my watch a certain way,
and then I'll have a Sometimes I'll have a fan on.
But there's moments that I can't have a fan. Um
(27:37):
it gets cold in there, like the dry eyes. But
I usually like, I'll sleep with a fan because when
I was growing up, I would, you know, me and
my mother shared a room. She worked night shift and
I would you know, be in the room asleep, but
she we would always have a fan. So when I
turned a fan on, it makes it tricks my brain
and thinking I'm back home with my family so they're
(28:00):
or when I turn a fan on, I'm I'm done,
I'm out, the term for the condition that Minor describes
as hyper vigilance, basically being in a constant state of
fight or flight mode, on high alert, always scanning for threats.
Hyper Vigilance is a hallmark of post traumatic stress disorder,
or PTSD, a mental health condition you've probably heard of.
(28:22):
Minor was diagnosed with PTSD in two thousand twelve by
the Department of Veterans Affairs, the federal government agency that
provides healthcare and other benefits to veterans. The v A
also evaluated the physical wear and tear for minors military service.
They did like a mr Iron like scanning my ship,
and I have like the bone structure of like a
seven year old man. Do you know what sounds like
(28:44):
when you pour milk on it? That's what I sound
like in the mornings when I wake up, Like my
whole body just like like that right there is just
like me stretching my arm out and that's and then
like my knees will do it. I can even do
it with my nose. Like kids like everything just wait
until everything loads when he walk waits, so he just
has to like go into it. So like when I
(29:07):
wake up tomorrow, because you know, we did the hike
and everything. Today, I'm gonna be like you know, old
people walk with it, a little walkers. That's what I'm
gonna look like until my body just goes, wait a minute,
you're actually up. Okay, hold on, let me let me
get everything going real fast. Minor has a sixty percent
disability rating from the v A tent for knee issues
and fifty for PTSD, which means they determined his military
(29:29):
service reduced his overall health and ability to function by
sixty This rating entitles him to about a thousand dollars
and disability from the v A each month. PTSD is
Miner's biggest issue, and when his memories from A Rock
and Afghanistan surface, it goes like this. My brain will
(29:49):
start playing the images through and it's like a like
a little reel. It'll just go, it goes through all
of them, and then sometimes it will it'll stop on
one moment and then you know, you remember all all
the glory details, and then we'll go to the next
and then it'll slow down. Yeah. So are the memories
any less intense when they do come now? Or they're
still like the day I was I can remember all
(30:12):
the smells, I know all the sounds, I know everything
that was going on. Memories of the June curse stand
out for Minor. I can recall the moments when you know,
we pulled O'Brien up onto the shoreline and we covered
him in an a ponto liner. I can recall the
moments and the sounds of that McDaniels were making in
(30:32):
the moment that you know, we we knew that he
was leaving us. He says. He also clearly remembers the
moment Dutcher got hit. I know there was debris being
thrown up whenever, whenever the Dutcher stepped on the I
and D the way the trees moved from the explosion itself. Um,
I remember it all really, really, really vividly, Minor tells me.
(30:57):
The day Dutcher died started out like any other. The
squad was out on patrol, walking in a single file
formation called a ranger file, with everyone following the path
of the sweeper. You have to patrol single file when
you're over there. It's there's no way of ens or
butts about it. You have to. They walked with big
gaps between them so that if someone stepped on an
(31:18):
I e D. It would be less likely to hurt
the man in front of them or behind them, because
there's so many I D s thrown out all over
the place, and that's the reason why we would travel
through corn fields, we would travel through the canals, and
if we had the availability, we will let the locals
heard their sheep through our patrol paths, so the sheep
would step on it, not us. Dutcher had volunteered to
(31:39):
sweep for i e d S that day because the
squads still didn't have a full time combat engineer after
losing McDaniels, so he was up front with the metal detector.
Minor was toward the rear of the patrol, about seventy
five yards from where Dutcher was. That was making sure
that all of us were out of the canal. The
Taliban hadn't figured out how to put I e d
(31:59):
S in the water yet, so the squad knew they
wouldn't get blown up walking through the canals, but doing
that caused other problems because some of the canals they're
they're like you have steep embankments and sometimes you can
just reach out and grab the grass and pull yourself up,
but we always had something there at the top to
make sure that they actually got up because if they
would fall back, because if we had all the gear,
(32:20):
if they were to fall backwards into the canal, unless
you can get all your gear off, you're going to drown.
Minor was on the bank helping the last guy out
of the canal. Next thing I know all her was,
you know, the explosion. Dutcher had stepped on an I e. D.
(32:42):
Chaos followed. Some of the squad members pulled security while
others made their way to Dutcher's side to treat him,
worrying the whole time about tripping a secondary I e. B. Bolinger,
the radio operator called in a Metavac helicopter and just
like McDaniels, Dutcher still had a pulse when they loaded
him aboard. So what was the mood when Dutcher got
(33:06):
put on the Metavac bird and flown away. It was
surreal and quiet, like no one really No one really
spoke until we got back to the patrol. This Dutcher
died on the helicopter. There were only two weeks left
until third Squad was supposed to leave sang In for good,
(33:27):
and it was one of those like disbelief moments, just
like there's no way that actually fucking happened. Like we're
almost done, how did that happen? Sitting here in Miner's
house ten years after that terrible day, I asked him
(33:51):
what Dutcher was like when he was alive. He tells
me about meeting dutch for the first time. Well, he
had those goof looking fucking glasses on, and he just
he looked out of place, you know, And honestly, he
did not look like he was in the infantory whatsoever.
He looked like he was one of those admin guys.
Like he's like, honest fucking desk jockey right there. Dutcher
(34:13):
had come to the platoon from the Marine Corps Security
Force Regiment, a special unit that protects critical US assets
around the world, like embassies and nuclear weapons. He arrived
at one five to finish out his contract in the
regular infantry. Dutcher was not a hardass. He earned respect
in a different way. Dutcher would, you know, sit there
and read read everything that he needed to. He asked
(34:35):
all the questions that he needed to. He learned really
quick about what he needed to do and how he
needed to do it. So Dutcher had a reputation for
being smart. That was not a reputation, that was a fact.
Tell me a little bit about about how how you
could tell that that he didn't need crayons. We had
(34:56):
these little um a little device like they took your
fingerprint and like photos so we can I d some
of the locals and ship. None of us knew how
to work it. Dutchers like, well, let me get it.
And he didn't even look at the owner. Man, He's like,
what's easy. You just got to do this. It's yours now.
Enjoy Miners talking about the bat hide, that small device
I described in episode one when I talked about photographing
(35:17):
Dutcher gathering biometric data from a villager. Duchess mastery of
the bad Hide and the squad's other electronics impressed Minor.
They were both from North Carolina, but they were cut
from different cloth. He was the brain to the brown
type situation. He would he would think his way through
certain things and I would just fucking hulk smash. That's
(35:38):
the way I've always been. I was just like, no,
funk this, it doesn't work. Okay, We're gonna do it
my way now. But he would be like, no, wait,
let's let's try it this way, or you know, I
think he would think about it, but I was like, no,
this is fucking smashed through it. By the time Dutcher died,
the platoon had already lost two marines O'Brien and McDaniels,
and multiple others have been sent home with missing limbs.
(35:59):
Does the action change with each time or is it
fresh every time? It's fresh every time, but you get
numb to the experience, like, yeah, it sucks when someone
gets hit and when someone gets hurt. But like I said,
I was already numb to a lot of the experiences
going on because I kept everyone close. But it wasn't
like buddy Buddy with a lot of the guys. Minor
(36:21):
told me about this tactic back at patrol based fires
in two thousand eleven. I'll learned through personal experiences and
stuff I've seen, and some of my old seniors used
to tell me, get close, but not too close. That way,
you have no emotional attachments to anybody around because you
never know when their time is. So feeling wise, don't
(36:42):
have to come off as a cold hearted motherfucker, because
I really don't see the difference easier said than done. Now,
Miner tells me he had, in fact let his guard
down and sang in before Dutcher died with O'Brien and
just dropped the ball when it came to O'Brien because
I I just got a little too closely. Again. It
hit me really, really hard because I used to hang
(37:05):
out with the guy, used to well we used to
uh drink water together at the barracks late at night
and smoke cigarettes. Um. He wasn't twenty one, but this
is all euphemism for you got used to drink together. Well,
we used to drink water together. Yeah, Um, but I
just got I let my guard down with him because
you know, we're from the same state and at the
(37:26):
time we were to the same rink. The explosion that
killed O'Brien ripped his body in half and launched his
torso into a canal, and third Squad received the awful
mission of searching for O'Brien scattered body parts. We had
to take him out of some of the trees and
stuff and pulling out of the water. I definitely definitely
hit different cord at that time, and that's when I
(37:48):
knew I was just like, and this is the reason
why you don't want to get too close. And so
when Dutcher died three months later, Minor was already closed up.
That's the way I treated everyone after after that situation,
A threw O'Brien. It's like, I got close, but I
didn't let myself. I didn't open myself up any more
than what I did with him. When they finally arrived
(38:13):
at Camp Pendleton, Minor found Laura waiting for him on
the tarmac and with her hope for something better. His
boots had barely hit us soil when he made a
decision he'd had it with the Marine Corps. I just said,
you know, I'm done. I'm not going anymore, because I
knew that was I'm not going on any more deployments.
I was like, I'm dropping my pack and I'm out.
(38:42):
We'll be back after the break. Miners growing relationship with
(39:16):
Laura kept him grounded as he transitioned into civilian life.
But it's not like things were peaceful for him. Some
nights he would drink to fall asleep to defeat the
hyper vigilance that kept him wired. Other times he'd get
hammered to try to unlock emotions that he couldn't access
when he was sober. And those nights that I would
drink a lot, I would just let it all just
(39:37):
flew through. When you say you would let it all
flow through, I would let all the emotions and everything
that I went through just rush over me. So what
would happen? Crying, sobbing, sitting there like wondering why? Why?
What could I have done? What could I have done
to this? How could I have changed that? Um? You know,
(39:59):
like there was a few moments when I was like, damn,
that should have been me, you know, I should have
been on that patrol and not them, or it should
have been me upfront and not those guys. And I
would just sit there and just let it just overtake me.
I would ride the wave per se, and once it
got done hit the shore line, I would, you know,
gather myself up and go on about what I was
(40:20):
supposed to be doing. And did you feel better after that?
I felt a lot better after it. But the drinking
is also a form of numbing, and it's a form
of numbing and kind of makes you feel less of
the emotions than what you would if you weren't drinking.
They're intense emotions, but it will be a less a
(40:42):
little bit less intense. It's it's like when you when
you cook with a pressure cooker, you have to release
some of the tension and the cooker otherwise this is
going to explode on you. So did you figure out
how to do all that stuff on your own? Or
did you go to therapy? I did it on my own.
And my thing about therapy is the only way a
psychi just can actually help you as if they went
through the same s ship that you went through. Because
(41:03):
you can go to Harvard freaking and get like the
best freaking schooling you can for psychiatry. But unless someone
experienced the ship that you've experienced, there's nothing they can
say to you to help you out. There's nothing. This
is Miner's opinion, and I respect it, but I don't
really agree. I don't think a therapist needs to experience
(41:24):
combat firsthand in order to help veterans get relief from PTSD.
But I can understand where Miners coming from. He says
he doesn't want to try therapy and he definitely doesn't
want pills. He wants to deal with it on his own.
He's drinking less these days, and says he's having an
easier time accessing his emotions while sober, and he's got
Laura to lean on too. As we're talking, Laura and
(41:48):
Minor scoot close to each other on the couch. She's
been quiet for a while, so have you heard most
of this stuff before? He has talked to me like there.
I think he's game more trust in me to kind
of let me know this kind of stuff, and I
think he's grown to kind of get through it a
(42:08):
little bit more as time goes by. But old habits
die hard. There are days like when the anniversaries come up,
I do see him like pecking up the fridge or
not as much anymore because I hound him on it um.
There were several times where I just saw him just wasted, wasted,
(42:29):
passed out, and it's not an image you want to see.
But it's also like, well, what do you do? Deployments
are tough on relationships and so is PTSD, So it's
no small feat that Laura and minors relationship has gotten
stronger since he came home. I think being together kind
of helped him a little bit. I'm hoping the transition
(42:50):
because he's he's not as big of an a hole
as he used to be, because he is, he's he's
he can be an asshole, a complete asshole, and and
he will be very now and then it comes out
because he is he putting on his best is he
on his best behavior right now? He yes, this is
the nice mike, this is the mic we like. And
(43:14):
for me, it's like I can't even fathom having to
see something like that he's gone through. It hurts me
too to know that he's had to go through that,
that they all had to go through that. Laura knows
how war has affected Minor. She lives with it every day,
but as with so many veterans, minor psychological and emotional
(43:35):
wounds are invisible to most people outside of his home.
There's guys that you know, we've worked with that have
you know, like amputees and like they have prosthetics and
ship that's that's the first giveaway for a lot of people.
But there's like people like me, I have very very
minimal like scarring on my body from from all the
experiences I have, but most of my ship is it's
(43:57):
mental psychological trauma has been a by product of war
and violence forever. Even though PTSD only became a formally
recognized diagnosis in the nineteen eighties. These days, PTSD is
a fairly common diagnosis. For better or worse, it's become
a household term. Part of me thinks everybody has heard
(44:17):
a very cliche version of the PTSD story, like to
the point where they either think that we're Chris Kyle
American sniper superheroes who are like indestructible, or they think
that we are like hiding in our basement, you know,
and surrounded by a bottle of a pile of beer
bottles and empty pill bottles, like there's no in between.
(44:38):
It's much more complicated. It's more complicated than two scenarios. Man.
That's the reason why I said earlier, I won't talk
to anyone unless they have similar experiences, because then they
at least understand where you're coming from. I'm not surprised
to hear minors say this. He's already said he won't
talk to a shrink who hasn't been to war, and
I remember him telling me back in Sangin that he
(44:58):
didn't plan on talking to civilian in about his combat
experiences for the same reason. We play that clip for him.
What do you think he'll tell people back home about
this place your friends, and I'll tell them ship. Tell
me why they don't need to know this ship. No
one needs to know the ship that we go through,
because if they started asking us questions about the ship
(45:20):
we go through, they would they wouldn't have any understanding
because they were never there. They wouldn't know what you felt.
They wouldn't know how it affected you mentally and physically.
They wouldn't know how to approach you after you told
them something that happened, you know, I mean, they wouldn't
have any idea of what it feels like too hold
(45:41):
of a turniquet on somebody's leg while you're watching them
bleed away. They wouldn't know any of that. Do you
still feel that way? They're still in the point like
some of the people that I have told some of
the stuff too, they don't. They don't treat me the
same anymore. They treat me like I'm a fragile a
little like almost like a grenade with the pen being
(46:03):
pulled on it. They just have to like make sure
that they don't do anything to trigger me. And it
irritates me the most is because treat me like you
would anyone else. Patronizing is one of the least enjoyable
things I've ever had to endure before. When I told
somebody some some of the stuff I've done, I can't
stand it. I would rather tell somebody go to go
(46:24):
funk myself after I told him a story. Didn't have
someone try to patronize me, like, um, thank you for
your service, for example. I mean, that's that's that's like
the go to thing. Because most people don't know how
to approach a veteran. Just just walk up to us,
talk to us, like have a normal conversation as if
you were talking to you know, your neighbor or your friend.
(46:45):
You can ask her when somebody says that stuff and
was like, thank you, and I just go on about
my business because you hear it all the dawn time.
I never know what to say when people say that.
I know you're dumbfounded because you're just like, well, funk,
thank you for your service, thank you for thanking me,
well fuck you know, thank you for being a civilian.
This is a good example of something that's known as
(47:07):
the civilian military divide, the cultural barrier between people who
have served and people who haven't. One of the things
you hear a lot when veterans talk about how frustrated
they are about how civilians talk to them about their
experience is they say, the first thing civilians always ask
you is did you kill anyone? Or how many people
did you kill? And I can obviously why are you laughing?
(47:31):
Because that's actually the first question they asked. It's like
how many people would you kill? So what do you
when people ask you that? What do you? What do
you say? Seven? And is do you just pull that
number out of a hatter? Is that the truth? Foreign Iraq?
And in three in the citation in Afghanistan? So you
(47:56):
would tell a stranger that who asked, no, I would
not tell you. You're just telling me. I'm telling you
to help bring awareness. But I will tell a stranger
to go fund himself so he has no funking need
to know? Like why why is that your first instinct?
This isn't fucking call of duty? Like why is that? Well?
How many people should you kill? Clearly not enough? You're
still alive? Like I don't understand. I understand, like what
(48:19):
goes through their fucking heads? But what do you think?
I mean? Why why do you think I don't know. Honestly,
I couldn't tell you. My family doesn't even know how
many people have killed. Asking a veteran how many people
they've killed is about as clumsy of a first question
as you could possibly ask. But I can kind of
understand it. When we're kids, we learned that killing is
(48:40):
the worst crime a person can commit. But then we
send young people off to war to kill on our behalf,
and when they come home, we don't talk about it.
We talk a lot about the people who get hurt,
we talk a lot about the people who get killed,
we talk a lot about the suicides, but we don't
talk about the killing. And war is killing just as
much as it is dying. And so I wonder, like,
(49:01):
for you, you know what, how has that factored? Like
obviously seeing not faed by it all by killing someone,
Shooting someone in the line of duty doesn't bother And
what does other mean to them? It's literally like fight
or flight, And there's no way in hell I'm run
from a fight, especially when I know people that around
(49:23):
me could get hurt. So if it doesn't phase you
that you did it in the moment because it was
kill or be killed, you really were fighting for your
life to save your yourself and your friends and all
of that. Then why is it offensive for people to
ask the question? It's offensive because they don't need to
(49:45):
know that information. It's like if I walked up to
you and go, how many girls have you fucked? You know,
it's like like that. It's like, how is that any
of my business? Like it's it's way too fucking personal
to ask when you first meet someone, Right, it's hard
(50:10):
to imagine Minor talking to people who never served about
any aspect of the war back in sang And he
told me he didn't think too highly of civilians. I
can't stand the people as it is, because they're just winers,
like they want everything handed to them and but they
don't want to work to get it. You ask someone
(50:32):
in America to do something for you, they want to
give you that fund yourself. Look what the fund are
you gonna do for me? But being in the military,
just like he really thinking, helped me all this. Look
like you didn't worry about it. I'll help you out.
So I mean, it's like everyone that's civilian is like
conceded about me. Me, me, me me. Despite the fact
that Minor is a civilian now he says his perspective
(50:53):
hasn't changed. It's still true. I completely agree with everything
that's smart ass handsel Men said, he still thinks civilians
take things for granted, and he still thinks there's no
point talking to him. Even after being out of uniform
all these years. The barrier between us and them remains clear.
To Minor, he works the night shift at a convenience
(51:15):
store near his house, and he says he can tell
whether a customer was ever in the military as soon
as they approached the counter. You can tell the difference
because the veterans, we carry ourselves a lot differently. We
carry ourselves with a little bit more more pride than
what a normal person would, because you know, we've we've
we we've signed on that dotted line and we agreed
to you know, pay that ultimate second was we agreed
(51:37):
to go as far as we needed to. The idea
that veterans are defined by pride and selflessness while civilians
are defined by hunt shoulders and a me me me
attitude just doesn't square with my experience on both sides
of the divide. In fact, the longer I'm out of uniform,
the more I think the veterans are civilians, and they're
just as varied in their personalities and values. Summer saints,
(52:00):
summer ship bags, and most fall somewhere in between. As
for the US in that attitude, I just don't think
it helps anyone. I tell Minor all of this, and
I asked him, is it up to us veterans to
talk more, to explain to people what it was like?
Is it up to us to bridge the divide? What
we need to do is a lot of veterans. What
we need to do is we need to start making
(52:20):
sex tapes. When you start putting gorilla glue in our hair,
anything remotely dumb and stupid, make TikTok videos. What we're
fucking eating tide pods and fucking snorting condoms. Stupid ship
is what gets people's attention. I swear I think the
world now is um like the the the attention span
of a fucking Labrador retriever. Oh squirrel, Oh squirrel. For Minor,
(52:43):
the biggest kick in the balls. The thing he really
can't get over is that civilians are just not interested
in what he and his fellow marines did in Afghanistan.
They don't they don't care. It's not in their backyard.
But you care, right? I care? Yeah, fun, yeah, I
care well, assuming like too many good people for people
just not to give a shit about it because they
(53:04):
get tired of, oh, we're at war, we don't want
to hear about it. Fuck you, you're losing a good
American people who would literally throw their life on the
line even if they were back here. They would throw
themselves in front of danger just to protect your spoiled ass.
Come on, they deserve more respect than that. It's getting
late and it's been a long day. Before we wrap.
(53:26):
I'm curious to know what Minor thinks about his own
evolution over the last decade. So do you think you
got halfway back to the person you were before? I'll never,
you know, be whole after some of the stuff that
we've seen. No one, no one in the right mind
will ever be whole unless you're like fucking damer or
in those fucking serial killer people that there's probably the
(53:47):
only ones that would like, oh this is cool, you
know um, But no, I mean maybe if you had
to put a percentage, probably eight eight five somewhere in there.
I'll never get back to to the ash whole that
I was apparently, but you feel like you've gotten back
some of what I've gotten back a little bit of
my humanity, but there's there's certain parts of me that
(54:09):
I I kind of I still want to feel the pain,
because if you get past that point and you forget
a lot of the stuff that you went through, you
will never know how you're going to succeed in the future.
The next morning is the start of another gorgeous California day,
(54:32):
and for the first time in weeks, I feel well rested.
I finally got a good night's sleep. I'm not gonna lie.
I've been extremely anxious about this whole trip. I'm gonna
ask every one of these guys to talk to me
about things they don't really talk about with anyone, not
their families, not their friends, not even their fellow veterans.
(54:54):
And I'm also going to be looking into a lot
of dark places in my own memory and in my heart.
So I sort of wish we could hang out here
for a while, kick back on one of those deserted
beaches near Camp Pendleton, maybe even rent a board in
a wet suit, But the mission cannot be delayed. Tommy
and I have to hulk smash a mile drive to Houston.
(55:16):
As for Minor, when the anniversaries come around again and
the next wave of memories rolls in from Sangon, I
hope the ride isn't too rough. And when he hits
the shoreline and gathers himself up, I hope he reaches
for Laura. Third Squad is written and produced by Elliott Woods,
(55:44):
Tommy Andreas, and Maria Byrne. It's an Heirloom Media production
distributed by iHeart Media, funding support from the National Endowment
for the Humanities and collaboration with the Center for Warren
Society at San Diego State University. Original music by Mondo Boys,
editing and sound design by John Ward. Fact checking by
(56:05):
Ben Kalin. Special thanks to Scott Carrier, Benjamin Bush, caitlinsh
Carrie Gracie, Kevin Connolly, Lena Ferguson, and Nick Ward. If
you'd like to see my photographs from Sangin and from
our road trip, please visit Third Squad dot com. You
can find me on Instagram and Twitter at Elliott Woods.
(56:32):
Before we go, if you are someone you know is
suffering from PTSD, please know there's help, and if you're
a veteran, you can get it for free from the
v A. Visit Mental Health dot v A dot gov
for more information. If you're having thoughts about suicide or
self harm, please call the Veterans Crisis Line immediately at
one to seven, three, eight to five f
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