And, This Is Gaming Culture & Gen-Z Nihilism With Content Creator Brandon "Atrioc" Ewing

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I do want to start talking about gen z men.
They range from angry to openly nihilists. They can't go
back to the status quo, Gavin, they just can't. Seems
like the DNC as a whole is trying to run
a very similar playbook that didn't work, and he is
wondering why they're not getting different results.

Speaker 2 (00:17):
This is Gavin Newsom and this is brendan Ewan aka
a Trio. All right, brendan Ewan, Hey, welcome brother. It's
good to be with you. Aka Atrioch, your online name,
which we'll get to in a minute. And for folks
that don't know you, millions of people do because they
watch you religiously, your rock star on YouTube, content creator,

(00:41):
a Twitch live streamer, speed runner. We'll talk about what
the heck that means if people are wondering what am
I talking about? But also really focused on building community
around marketing, around business, and that's what your background represented,
working Twitch, working in Nvidia. We can talk about AI chips,
but I really wanted you on because it was so
much focus on what happened a few weeks ago. Charlie

(01:06):
Kirk and Tyler Robinson, person who's been accused some of
the gaming questions and issues that came up, some of
the memes that were allegedly part of some components of
the investigation, the broader conversations we're having in this country
around the manosphere, and what's happening with gaming culture generally

(01:26):
issues of boys and men. Everything about this and kept
coming back to you.

Speaker 3 (01:31):
So I'm great hoping to all come back to me.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
I all came back to you as a guy that
can explain to unpack all of this stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:39):
We know we talked about this before this, and I
wanted to First of all, I want to say you
mentioned millions of people might know my stuff, maybe a
little less than that, But the people that know me,
I think they'll like me. People that don't know me
when they hear concent creator or YouTube or twitch hamer,
I think they have an instant dislike and I don't
really blame them. I don't think that's I think most

(02:01):
people have an instant distrust.

Speaker 3 (02:03):
Of someone who has that as their job, and I
get it.

Speaker 1 (02:06):
So I want to try and get across why people
are turning to this, why this is becoming a new
form of media, and also understand that, like if you
don't if this is not for you.

Speaker 3 (02:15):
I get it, it's not. Yeah no, but I should.

Speaker 2 (02:18):
But people, I mean, it explains more things in more
ways on more days, particularly to parents. I mean, I've
got I've got four young kids, and it's pretty overwhelming
the gaming culture that's out there. So I mean, what
is it. I mean, seventy plus percent of teenagers are
active gamers? Is that among met I assume it's higher.

Speaker 1 (02:33):
I think it's a lot even higher, right, Yeah, So
I wanted to start with that, you know, And I
don't think this is your stance, but it's like really
important me to get across early. It feels like, in
the wake of what happened with Charlie Kirk, there is
a reignition of old, old, old debates around how video
games violent video games are the problem. And I just
want to be so clear from my POV and from

(02:54):
the POV of my audience, who's again younger gen z men,
that's an insane, insane way to look at this. You know, Uh,
South Korea, Japan, UK, Germany, France, they all have the
same rate of video game playing and they have none
of the violent crime or but small fraction of violent
crimes exactly. There is no real correlation with it. So
what I'll say is it's an easy scapegoat.

Speaker 3 (03:14):
It is a really easy scapegoat. We can go into
this for a while.

Speaker 2 (03:16):
But no, and by the way, full stipulate, could not
agree with you more is someone that's deeply focused on
the issue of gun violence, mass shootings and all these things,
and sort of the lazy punditry that comes back to
this gaming culture has been completely debunked. So could not
agree with that more, just stipulating an alignment of thinking

(03:36):
on that.

Speaker 1 (03:37):
No, sure, and then you know there now they're saying,
I think they're about to haul the head of Reddit
and discord and Twitch and all these people in front
of Congress. Listen these the addiction to these things, and
there's something to say is addiction. I will say some
some young men are are spending a large sence of
time on these platforms. This is a symptom. This is
a symptom of them having almost nowhere else to go.

(04:00):
And especially want to talk about gaming. The idea that
gaming is driving isolation and not isolation is leading to
people trying to find an escape or connection through gaming.
It's the other way around. I mean that is what's happening.
So I don't know if you have children, you have young.

Speaker 2 (04:14):
Boys or four young kids.

Speaker 3 (04:15):
Yeah, as your boys are.

Speaker 2 (04:17):
Oldest just turned sixteen, and the two boys nine and thirteen?

Speaker 3 (04:22):
Are they gamers? Are they Roadblocks? Are they Fortnite?

Speaker 2 (04:24):
Are they every single day I am battling man battling
them on YouTube watching someone else play Minecraft, watching someone
else play a video game they're obsessed by.

Speaker 1 (04:37):
And so what I would say is, you know, I
assume you do the normal thing parents are doing, especially
in SF, they limit screen tign thing like that.

Speaker 3 (04:43):
But to be honest, if you told them they can't.

Speaker 1 (04:46):
Play Roadblocks or they can't play Fortnite, yeah, you would
make them less socially like they are less able to
connect to their friends nowadays. That is how they're doing.
That is I know it's a generation disconnect, but that
is not the problem. The young men that are turning
to discord servers and gaming are trying to find friends
in connection. They are logging on after work and hanging
out in voice chats with their friend and having a

(05:07):
good time.

Speaker 3 (05:08):
This is like the one thing.

Speaker 1 (05:09):
That's keeping them saying in a world that is going
I think increasingly insane, and not offering them economic opportunities.

Speaker 2 (05:14):
I love that. Let's pack because you know, I think
a lot of people, obviously YouTube people are familiar with
there's this sort of generation though, that's heard of Twitch. Yeah,
they're heard of Kick, that's heard of Discord, But they
don't know what these things are. Reddit maybe people are
a little bit more familiar with. But talk to me
and when I started, I mean you, Twitch is sort
of a go to for a lot of folks in

(05:34):
the gaming space. But explain what these are, what these
platforms represent, how they started, and what they've become. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (05:41):
So I worked at Twitch right right around the time
it started.

Speaker 1 (05:44):
That's a very lucky thing for me because I was
a asu Arizona State University, the Harvard of the Southwest,
they call it graduate and you know, middling grades, and
I played a lot of games and it was very,
very lucky that I found this route into Twitch, which
was a website which allowed gamers to broadcast themselves online.

Speaker 3 (06:02):
That was the idea, I'm playing the game, maybe.

Speaker 1 (06:04):
I'm particularly good at it, maybe I'm funny while I
play it. And people that also played the game found
that to be entertaining, and they would start to build
communities and audience doesn't know it.

Speaker 2 (06:12):
Grow And tell me what time were people started? Really?
I mean it was it a particular individual that said, Hey,
I'm going to put myself online. Was sort of a
moment that marked consciousness of this whole. I mean, because
it's become a gigantic business. And we'll get to that
in a moment. But was Twitch really the first to
really popularize as a platform.

Speaker 3 (06:30):
Yeah. Twitch is the one that that found this niche.

Speaker 2 (06:33):
Early for you know what years are we talking about?

Speaker 3 (06:36):
Twenty fourteen ish, that's around when I joined, and it grows,
and then around covid it explodes, explodes because everyone's stuck
at home and it become it just hits the right
time in the right place.

Speaker 2 (06:46):
So let's let's back up a little bit. You discovered
Twitch as someone not just doing content, but someone that
was marketing the content. Were you working for?

Speaker 1 (06:55):
I never had any interest in doing content myself. I
was at Twitch and they needed someone to go on
hammer every now and then, and I was the one
stupid enough to volunteer, and I got some training, and
I was using the program.

Speaker 2 (07:05):
And you got on camera and you started doing what
you started explaining the.

Speaker 3 (07:09):
Video talk about this.

Speaker 2 (07:10):
Na.

Speaker 1 (07:10):
You know, here's the thing. So what I'm saying might
sound completely unwatchable to someone who doesn't play video games. Yeah,
but over the past, since twenty fourteen to now, the
platform has changed dramatically. The biggest thing on the website
is not games at all. It's just people talking to
the camera about their lives, about the news, about what's
going on in the world. People are just using it
because it's a real direct connection. Yeah, okay, and so

(07:32):
that has become the main The gaming is still a
big part of Twitch, but it's it's it's in the culture.
You might play games a little bit during the day,
then switch talking about the new switch talking about watching
YouTube video.

Speaker 2 (07:40):
Right, you can do anything.

Speaker 3 (07:41):
So that's the path that we went on at the time.

Speaker 2 (07:46):
I'm sorry what was sorry? No, just but at the
time you were what was the biggest content that was
being provided at that time? Was it was there a
particular game that was mostly popularized or that it was
disproportionally being popularized.

Speaker 3 (07:58):
Blew it up.

Speaker 1 (07:58):
So I again first to is covid and then I
would say, you know, celebrities started to go on every
now and then, and I think Drake played with Ninja
some Fortnite and that every every now I was there,
I saw every little step would blow Twitch up a
little bit more. And then it started to get bigger
and bigger. But what I would say is it's spread
beyond Twitch now. It's got kick, it's got YouTube, it's

(08:18):
TikTok live.

Speaker 3 (08:19):
What I'm saying is people right now are.

Speaker 1 (08:21):
Just engaging through content creators because they have this more
direct one to one connection.

Speaker 3 (08:26):
Actually, what I'll say what it is is and you
probably deal with this as a challenge when you're trying
to speak.

Speaker 1 (08:32):
People are very, very tired of inauthenticity.

Speaker 3 (08:36):
That's what That's what I feel.

Speaker 1 (08:37):
People feel like everyone's out to sell them something, everyone's
out to get them, and even content creators are doing this.
But they're trying to find somebody they can trust. That
is the main thing is trust.

Speaker 2 (08:47):
And so you're saying kids are going online and they
end up looking for that they see someone they can
identify with through a medium that they're already identified with,
a game that they have in common or something in
common they have in common. And so Twitch figured this
thing out. And but you made an important point. Twitch
is not is not just a platform exclusively for a game,

(09:07):
even close.

Speaker 1 (09:08):
The biggest thing on the platform is not gaming just
I think that's a shock to some people, but it
really is just people talking, people having fun, and.

Speaker 2 (09:14):
It's these sort of areas of interest where you get
into these group chats and there's sort of an interactivity.
People are engaged in a two way conversation, not just one.

Speaker 1 (09:23):
Yeah, yeah, that's live. I mean at a big enough chat,
you're not really talking one to one. But the idea
is people feel like their voice is somewhat being heard.

Speaker 2 (09:30):
And what's the difference between Twitch and Discord?

Speaker 1 (09:33):
So Discord is just a chat room, and that's why
it's kind of funny, you know. Uh, there's a lot
of among gen z. There's these memes going around about
people getting messages from their parents.

Speaker 3 (09:43):
I heard you're using Discord. Were you're talking to this? Like,
it's it's just a chat, it's nobody's it's your own.

Speaker 1 (09:48):
Private little room with your friends. Discord is the platform.
It's like saying, I heard you're using an iPhone? Did
the killer using an iPhone?

Speaker 3 (09:55):
Did you? You know what I'm saying, it's just a
met You're not in the same.

Speaker 2 (09:58):
Uh, and you're referring because there was. I mean, you
hear about discord often in the context of some of
these more high profile instances. Yeah, obviously this Tyler Robinson
is accused of the accused of shooting Charlie Kirk used
a Discord.

Speaker 1 (10:15):
Yeah, but he used a discord chat room with his friends.
Nobody else's it's you know, and it's any any medium
could have done this. The idea that discord is uniquely
brewing people like this is unsubstantiated.

Speaker 2 (10:28):
Got it. So the gaming area, the gaming most of
the gaming platforms. YouTube's sort of dominant the space along
with Twitch. Who else is sort of emerging in the
gaming space as the platform, the sort of two go platform.

Speaker 1 (10:41):
Yeah, I would say YouTube and Twitch is the.

Speaker 3 (10:44):
Vast, vast majority of people doing this.

Speaker 1 (10:46):
You could talk about kick, you talk about Rumble, you
talk about the more fringed wild ones, but Twitch and
YouTube and YouTube is the eight hundred pound gorilla in
the space.

Speaker 2 (10:55):
It really is mostly YouTube.

Speaker 1 (10:56):
That's why people a gett That's why I'm putting out
my content online. That's where most people are.

Speaker 2 (11:00):
And so you started just as you just were there
in Arizona. You're just getting good on games. You just
you know, you just found this sort of a proclivity
for it. You're loving it. You remember the first game
you were like deep into, like you're.

Speaker 1 (11:12):
Just obsessed with Okay, Well, now here's what I want
to say is like, this is me in Arizona. I've graduated,
I'm trying to find a job. I had okay grades
and the college is not some incredible degree. Okay, so
I'm I'm figuring it out, and thanks to a lucky
opportunity and thanks to the economy being in a better
spot at the time, I get this last chopper out

(11:33):
of nonm It feels like where I get a decent
chance to go off and make enough money too. Now
I can you know, I'm married, I have a house
that I'm paying Down's expensive. But so I have friends
now who are younger than me that are like I
have a friend who's graduating from Berkeley computer science.

Speaker 3 (11:52):
Smart guy.

Speaker 1 (11:53):
He's graduating in an environment that is one hundred times
harder to get a job than it was in twenty
fourteen twenty fifteen. It's not his fault. He didn't do
anything different. So that is going to make him more
likely to be nihilistic it's more likely to make him
disengage from the system, more likely to make him angry
at politicians left and right.

Speaker 3 (12:11):
It's just it's not.

Speaker 1 (12:14):
It's tough to say that, like, I just find it
and you're not doing this, But I'm saying I'm finding
it frustrating, the endless pointing to discord read it twitch.

Speaker 3 (12:23):
It's this has nothing to do with it. It is.

Speaker 1 (12:25):
It is the situation where people are are more and
more desperate, uh for a direction to go. So, yeah,
I can tell you about a game I plan. I mean,
I played, I played. I wasted my college on a
game like League of Legends. I wasted, you know, but.

Speaker 2 (12:39):
You didn't waste your because I got lucky.

Speaker 1 (12:43):
I don't think that's and what I do now has
almost nothing to do with gaming.

Speaker 2 (12:46):
I'll be honest with you.

Speaker 3 (12:47):
My audience hates when I game that right, But.

Speaker 2 (12:50):
You're a world record holder. It's just so people have
an understanding who we're talking to. You're and you crushed
it world record holder. What for Hitman?

Speaker 1 (12:58):
Yeah, there's a game called Hitman where you you know,
you're you're flying around and I listen, I I that
is a time of my life where I was here.
I started doing this when I was working at Nvidia.
I was working some insane hours and I wanted to
come home and disengage. I wanted to just play video games,
and I want some friends in the chat to do it.
That did pretty well, and it started to take off.
Then after COVID, I started talking about you know, I'm.

Speaker 2 (13:20):
An avid reader.

Speaker 3 (13:20):
I'm reading the news every day and I want to
talk just give my thoughts.

Speaker 1 (13:23):
That started to take off, and eventually that was enough
that I could leave a job that was really stable
and good at Nvidia to try and do this full time.

Speaker 2 (13:29):
And you started to be able to monetize it at
that level. Yeah, working for one of the great chip
companies and Planet Earth and now one of the biggest
market cap companies quite literally and human in the world.
And and and you started making the kind of money
that you said, Man, I'm just full time now on
this nothing majority of about a content creator. Quite the contract,
just the opposite. I mean, no, it's you're an entrepreneur,

(13:51):
you're a small business person. You put something out there,
took a risk, You're on a platform, you're taking a passion,
you're sharing it in a very public way. You're building
an audience marketing it. I mean that's pretty.

Speaker 1 (14:02):
I appreciate everything you're saying, and it's nice to you
to say. But there, as with all things, there's some
aspect of hard work and some aspect of luck, and
there's like and the idea that this is the path
that everyone could just you know, I can think of
so many times things could have gone a different way, right,
and I'll be a different spot and you'll acknowledge.

Speaker 2 (14:19):
I mean, and I think it's just important illuminate. I mean,
but a lot of people are finding this path, right,
I mean, this is becoming the opportunities of our Yeah.
Well no, I mean I'm not gonna we'll see what happens,
but in terms of my future, Jesus, but it's no.
But it's but it's interesting to me. I mean, it's
I think it's people just to understand and absorb sort
of this digital first experience. I mean, there's a whole

(14:41):
generation that frankly, they they're digital. Obviously, we talk about
digital immigrants versus digital natives. Uh, it's sort of a
lazy vernacular. But this whole digital first experience is radically
changing everything, including sports, and we're gonna get to that, yeah,
in a moment. But but the gaming culture is real,
it's growing. You've got stadiums now quite literally filled physical

(15:04):
stadiums with people watching these esports and other people plane
games to a degree that I don't think most people
fully absorb or understand.

Speaker 3 (15:14):
Yeah, that's how I started.

Speaker 1 (15:15):
I went to a study abroad in South Korea and
they had these big tournaments, and I was blown away,
and I was like, let's get this in America, let's start.
It happened without me, but I came back and started
to work in that space and that blew up. But again,
I can't tell you enough this, like the esports, is
really a small part of what is becoming this online

(15:37):
influencer first culture. If you were to spend some time
browsing Twitch, you would not see as much gaming as
you're thinking on It really is people just looking for
human connection, humans to talk to.

Speaker 3 (15:48):
And I'm not saying this is all a good thing.

Speaker 1 (15:49):
I'm not saying everyone should be spending all their time
on these platforms. I am just saying that it's it's
a very natural response to things getting more expensive, to
looking for to finding people who is air some similar
values or ideas as you across the world.

Speaker 3 (16:03):
So no, I love that.

Speaker 2 (16:04):
I want to get to all that because I mean
those deep issues, generational issues that we've been talking about
on the podcast with a number of people in the past,
and and it's off the chart, particularly for men, and
and so I just want to unpack it a little
bit more, just again for people that are not fully
that just don't have the level of understanding the space.
But you talk about esports, and I just think it's

(16:25):
an interesting space in this context. You say it's a
relatively small space, but it's not a small amount of
investment that it seems people are making. I was just
reading about Michael Jordan, Shaquille O'Neill, Beckham, folks putting tens
of millions of dollars into esports teams. I mean this,
this thing's growing.

Speaker 1 (16:44):
Yeah, But what I'll tell you is I'm being dead honest, Gavin.
A lot of them are going to lose their shirt
on this. You know, I've been around the esports space
a while and a lot of people have gotten burned.
The problem is it's really hard to monetize the user.
They they love watching it, they love watching it for free.
They don't you know, there's not there's not a lot
of in person stadium buying merge going right. The business
economics of esports are interesting. It is growing in terms

(17:06):
of viewership and it'll get there. But they got way
ahead of their skis. I think a lot of people
are are coming down off the high.

Speaker 2 (17:12):
You know.

Speaker 1 (17:12):
It's like it was one of those things almost every
business there's some story about twenty twenty one. It was crazy, yeah,
and then it's that's that's hapening with.

Speaker 2 (17:19):
These it was kind of it was at a peak
twenty twenty.

Speaker 1 (17:21):
Yeah, twenty twenty one, it was like you could do
The salaries were insane. They were getting paid absurd amounts
for these players to sit in the room and play games.
It's less now, you know, it's it's and I you know,
Rick Fox of the Lakers put a bunch of money
into a team lost, you know, had to get out.
I'm saying it'll happen, but I'm not gonna be one
of those guys. It's like, esports is right here, get
your money.

Speaker 2 (17:40):
You know.

Speaker 3 (17:40):
It's it's a grassrooms thing.

Speaker 2 (17:42):
It's growing, and so you're what's interesting about you is
not only your history and and and and how you've
evolved in terms of your own career path and going
into these aspects and disciplines. But the marketing background and
the business background and the work you're doing on a
new podcast it was lemonades, lemonates and talking about business
and branding, et cetera. But you mentioned just in reference

(18:04):
and passing something that I think is interesting and for
folks again may not be familiar with on Fortnite in particular,
which I just remember my kids watching religiously to your
point during COVID excessively as a parent from my perspective,
but from their perspective, they were I just got on it, Dad,
What do you mean. I've only been yea minutes, but

(18:25):
I remember turning it on one day and they're listening
to concert. I'm like, what are you guys listening to?
It's like I think it was Marshmellow or oh yeah.
And so in that fascining me to this integration for
live concerts at Travis Scott there is I think Ariana
Grande may have done one. Also brands, right, I mean
you got Nike now working on those and those platforms,

(18:45):
Louis Vatan, I mean, tell me a little bit about
that give us a sense of what that integration as well.

Speaker 1 (18:50):
Yeah, I mean it is as crazy as it can
sound from someone outside of it. It's people all over
the world in a digital world watching these concerts together
that can see each other there jumping around, They're having
a good time, and it's just becoming where the culture
that is where I think there is such a line
if you grow with it or you didn't, And I
think that is what allows me to talk about other

(19:12):
things with the lingo and the references that they use,
because it's just something they're native to perc But you know,
I think people will will come around to it. You know,
here's an example.

Speaker 2 (19:27):
For esports.

Speaker 1 (19:28):
All of the biggest ways to watch it are not
you know how you watch the NFL through the NFL's
official broadcast right or a pirated version if you're young,
but you're watching the official commentators. For esports, it doesn't
happen that way. They make an official broadcast and then
a million people will restream it in on their own
commentary and those guys get way more viewers in the
official broadcast. And we're starting to see that happen with sports,

(19:50):
where they'll have like the manning cast for the NFL.
A lot of rights issues are in the way, but
eventually they're going to crack the code because the average
person wants to see this stuff filtered through someone they
trust and understand and it's speaking to them like a
regular person.

Speaker 3 (20:03):
Right, that's gonna happen in sports. It's gonna happen all
over that.

Speaker 1 (20:05):
The democratization of all this stuff is happening, and it
is reaching sports now, and it's gonna it's gonna happen
to things you understand as well. But yeah, it's weird
seeing it live.

Speaker 2 (20:17):
You know.

Speaker 1 (20:17):
Gaming has been on the cutting edge of this because
I again back to briersal point, it's just where people
are finding friends and connections where they can find it, right,
it's sealing a void that they need filled.

Speaker 2 (20:26):
So this is so let's go back to that and
we'll go back to your reference sort of this these
moments that sort of mark the accelerant and obviously COVID
was just off the charts in terms of just people
trying to connect, feeling totally isolated, disconnected, and they can
find those relationships online, they can find those groups of interest,
they can they can literally develop friendships and relationships online

(20:47):
that the otherwise wouldn't have had necessarily the opportunity, particularly
during COVID. Yeah, talk to me about you know those years.
You talk about twenty twenty one representing sort of a
peak of consciousness, But what what what do you see
start to really takes shape during those COVID years.

Speaker 1 (21:02):
I mean, so after twenty twenty, there's a lot of
new money, both from Trump and Biden flowing around the economy.
They both did a lot of stimulus and printing, and
that went into tech startups and that went into esports,
and that went into Twitch, and that went into all
this stuff, and there was a lot of it floating around.

(21:22):
There was you know, I remember there was the game
stop stock craze and everyone wanted to find someone to
watch on that, and that was These things became cultural
flashpoints that were taking place entirely online. And then after
twenty twenty one, we started to get inflation, a lot
of inflation that made doing things that weren't online more
expensive and more difficult. That's combined with COVID, and so

(21:44):
these things I think combined to push people more into
online spaces than perhaps natural law would dictate.

Speaker 3 (21:51):
I mean, that is what happened, and so it's good
and bad.

Speaker 1 (21:54):
You know, as a content creator, COVID was exposure to
an entirely new audience. It grew big, but it's not
I wouldn't say it was a good thing for overall,
you know, That's not how i'd frame it.

Speaker 2 (22:05):
And what in what way is it not? I mean
the unhealthy aspects of what you try to get offline
so you can get back into a line and reconnect
with people back in the real world. I mean, in
what way was it? Was it?

Speaker 1 (22:17):
What I'm saying is I think people people want to
do that naturally, they just can't. They just it is
just more difficult.

Speaker 3 (22:25):
You know.

Speaker 1 (22:26):
I don't know if we want to get to it now,
but I do want to start talking about gen z men. Yeah,
and uh, the issue I'm seeing not all of them
are like it's a broad diverse group, of course, and
it's a huge point of my audience.

Speaker 2 (22:39):
And I'm hearing them.

Speaker 1 (22:40):
I'm hearing their their thoughts a lot. They range from
angry to openly nihilistic. And the nihilism is what's coming
is what I sense growing a little bit where they're disillusioned,
you know, I think around twenty two three four. You
probably saw this on the political side. They drifted more
servative because they thought that would be the solution. And

(23:03):
as Donald Trump is proven to be not the answer,
it's any of their problems and in fact making a
lot of them worse, making the inflation worse, making the
economy worse, making then they are now just drifting into
open nihilism.

Speaker 3 (23:12):
And that is what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (23:13):
And I'm not to blame that on the the methods
they're using to try and not be that is crazy.

Speaker 3 (23:21):
That's not the issue. It's not the discord, it's not
the yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:23):
Right, No, no, I appreciate that, and it's you know,
but it does beg sort of the larger consciousness that
came out of the Trump campaign. As it relates to
your right. He obviously dominated, particularly with young men, but
did outperformed in ways that I think surprised a lot
of folks. Yeah, and invested a lot of time and
energy into spaces where a lot of young men were

(23:45):
and where a lot of young men are. We talk
about podcasts, we talk about this sort of manosphere broadly defined,
which is something that needs to be unpacked. But he
did invest that time and energy to meet people quote
unquote where they are, and we didn't see that commencarate
investment from the Democratic Party. Certainly don't see it from

(24:06):
Biden or Harris.

Speaker 1 (24:07):
We're not really seeing it now outside. I think I
appreciate what you're doing here, and I like this podcast
is a good step. But you know, I saw a
piece from Esra Kline the other day where he he
talked about how it seems like and again I'm gonna
be candid here, it seems like the DNC as a
whole is trying to run a very similar playbook that

(24:28):
didn't work and is wondering why they're not getting different results.
It is shocking to me that with as bad as
Trump is doing, and it really is. Again, I I
if I want to be your gen z whisper versecond again,
I'm money. I'm thirty four.

Speaker 3 (24:42):
They're gonna call me old.

Speaker 1 (24:42):
My hairlines bad, you call me old bald.

Speaker 3 (24:48):
They are.

Speaker 1 (24:49):
They are turning on Donald Trump in a way that
will come a parent pretty soon.

Speaker 3 (24:55):
But they're not turning towards the Democratic Party.

Speaker 2 (24:58):
Difference.

Speaker 1 (24:59):
Yeah, they're equal. He is upset with them, which is
what I think the problem is. And it's kind of
crazy that it's not being capitalized no more. And I
will give you credit. I think what you have been
doing is kind of breaking through the noise. It's showing
a little bit of I don't know, a spine of
like a willingness to stand up to what he's doing.

Speaker 3 (25:17):
But you know, if I can be honest, all right,
here's what I'll say.

Speaker 1 (25:23):
And you have an announcity thing and this is not
But there's a theoretical world where you're going to run
for president.

Speaker 3 (25:27):
I'm just gonna say, you don't say anything. I'm okay.

Speaker 1 (25:30):
A virtual world, yeah, virtual world. Hey, the betting markets
have you leading. Okay, there's a theoretical world. And uh,
if if I can get somebody who's not militarizing the
National Guard and somebody's not shutting down TV shows that
disagree with them, and somebody's not threatening free and fair elections.

Speaker 2 (25:51):
That's a huge win already.

Speaker 3 (25:52):
It's a low bar to clear.

Speaker 2 (25:53):
It's an easy clear.

Speaker 1 (25:54):
But you know, realistically from the audience that I'm talking about,
because again I think I got, like again the last
chap brought and now I'm feeling fine. They they they
can't go back to the status quo. Yeah, and they
just can't. They will, they will, They will continue to
grow more upset and populist and nihilistic unless things seriously change,

(26:16):
like they have to change on a more fundamental level.

Speaker 2 (26:18):
Look, so let's start to unpack this because I mean,
I love the clarity as you painted this picture. I
mean it's you know, it's pretty pretty black and white
terms as you painted. I mean, just like this notion
of nihilism. Yeah, of just like not giving a shit
about anything in.

Speaker 3 (26:34):
Blood exact damn.

Speaker 2 (26:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:35):
And the most extreme example would be someone like Tyler
Robbins if you look at you know, his and I
got I'm not not my psycle analyst, not an expert,
but there seems to be a nihilism to these kind
of actions and from young people in general that is
rising where it just feels like if I can't get
a house, if you're young men, I can't get a partner,
I can't find a way to be up to feel
roots in the society that I'm in, then I'm going

(26:56):
to drift out of it. I'm going to disengage. And
they would find any tool to do it. In fact,
I would say that one of the healthiest things they
can do is gaming and discord because that's with other
people they are finding friends. The discord chefs that I'm
in are not making me or radicalized. I'm connecting with
people all over the world. It's great.

Speaker 3 (27:14):
In fact.

Speaker 1 (27:14):
You know, here's an example. I don't know if you've
heard about what happened in Nepaul recently. Can I of
course with Instagram? Yeah, yeah, So Nepal, their gen z
youth was deeply upset about rising youth unemployment, rising poverty,
and they were posting about on social media and they
were getting angry. Then the government tried to ban social media,
and that's when they took the streets. That's when they're
going that's when they're they're rioting, that's when they're going crazy, because.

Speaker 3 (27:38):
These are the last outlets people have.

Speaker 1 (27:40):
So I just want to give that perspective here, is
that if Congress is going to haul discord and Twitch
and read it up there and think that restricting them
or banning them is going to solve this problem, it
is not.

Speaker 3 (27:52):
I it'd be so clear it is not. It's going
to make it more virulent.

Speaker 2 (27:57):
No. Look, I think what you're saying is profoundly important
and I'm not trying to go back, but I want
to paint this picture because I want to land from
exactly where you're going, because I think what you're saying
is is it needs to be said, because there were
these trend lines that pre date all of this for
decades and decades, and we have the first generation, this

(28:19):
gen Z is that literally is posed to do much
worse than their parents' generation. This is the first generation
in our lifetime, my lifetime certainly, but literally in American
history where that would be the case. And so this
is code read and it's led to suicides, it led
to dropouts, it's led to all kinds of related issues,
and it's there's guys are screaming, disproportioning men in some respects,

(28:42):
and no one's paying any damn attention. And now we're
looking at things and I love what you're saying. We're
looking at the platforms and not the underline damn issues. No.
But yeah, but I want to get in. I want
you to hold those stats because I think they're incredibly important.
But I want to go back just so again just
because so many people want to understand and these are
not root causes, but they're component parts of this larger

(29:04):
conversation we talk about the Mano sphere. What does that
mean to you? I mean, what is it? You know?

Speaker 1 (29:09):
This is the investment that I think Trump and the
Republicans made into spaces that are not even inherently political.
They are spaces where people are talking about wrestling or
or or UFC or video games or just finding connection,
often with other men, and just trying to understand similar
experiences in the world. And they invested in those spaces

(29:31):
and then hey, on the side, you like this. Also
on the side, you know, let's stop the woke mind virus.
So you know what it would be something like that.
It would be you know, Kamairis is not going to
help you out, that's the idea. And they would mix
that in with things people already like, and it became very.

Speaker 3 (29:46):
Easy to slide in. And it's what's crazy.

Speaker 1 (29:49):
I don't think it's that hard for the Democrats to
join these spaces. Most people like watching sports, most people
like it's not rocket science. And I think, again, I
can't overstate how it feels like a ball somewhere is
being dropped when you can't speak even semi authentically to
people that are not they're not from a different world.
They're not that crazy. That's a problem that I would

(30:13):
point out, and I think they.

Speaker 3 (30:15):
Did a good job with it.

Speaker 1 (30:15):
But I will also say this, Listen, We're gonna fight
in this country about social issues left and right forever,
it seems. And I really noticed that in the wake
of this Charlie Kirkt thing, where it's just an endless
amount of noise from every direction.

Speaker 3 (30:29):
You are inundated with it. On social media.

Speaker 1 (30:31):
Every take goes viral in every direction, and nobody is
making any progress, and no one's making any forward motion.
But what I'll say is the main thing that I'm
seeing and feeling was a deep, a deep resentment around
costs and inflation and housing. And I truly think whichever

(30:52):
side can solve those problems will dictate, not dictate, but
we'll take the lead. On social issues. People will go
whatever is going to offer them solutions on that. And
because Trump has not done that like you promised, there's
there's already a reverse boomerang starting. Okay, it's going to
go the other way. Regardless of whether or not anyone
reaches out the podcast, there will be a reverse boomerang.

(31:14):
But if it goes this way and that isn't solved again,
it'll be an even stronger That is how it's going
to play out. I'm certain of it. So yeah, so
your time.

Speaker 2 (31:25):
I mean it's you know, unpacking this a little bit.
It's it's not just about politics. I mean, you talk
about nihilism more broadly, define you. I mean this should
just you know, despair.

Speaker 1 (31:33):
It's economics, it's economically and so you know, one thing
as a goal of mine on this podcast is to
try and get you, not because I understand you have
to win and not win, Okay, I'm just saying if
you have, you have to gain support. You're a politician,
you have to represent more than just some individual base.
And I think what you're doing talking to people politically

(31:55):
different than you is is a big step and that's awesome.

Speaker 3 (31:57):
And I think that's cool to gain.

Speaker 2 (31:58):
Voters and gain understood more understanding. Yeah, he'll be like
gain understanding. I mean, Charlie Kirk on this shows. But
when we launched this podcast is the first and I
mean and I got the people were pissed.

Speaker 1 (32:10):
I And you know what's funny is is uh I
respected more for that I got. I tried to do
some research and watch some of these Some of the
comments are are brutal on you, and you get it anyway,
and I respect you to keep doing it, but so
I'm not here to like push you in a direction
that is going to make it harder to get a
broader base. I think politics for try to represent people
that aren't directly align with them. What I'm trying to

(32:32):
get you to understand is like, uh, I think I
want to push you a little bit more economically on
you know, in this country, from like the forties to
the eighties, we had an extremely low Genie coefficient of inequality.
It was it was low and flat for years, a
strong rising middle class, and people broadly feeling.

Speaker 3 (32:54):
We were proud of their country.

Speaker 1 (32:56):
They were it wasn't like Marxism, it wasn't you know,
it was a capitalist country and businesses could thrive, but
people felt like they had a real chance. And since
we've allowed this increased consolidation, since we've continually used government
funds to prop up the stocks and housing of elderly
boomers that own it all it is, it has.

Speaker 3 (33:17):
Become more it's a ladder that is fewer and fewer
rungs to get on YEP.

Speaker 1 (33:21):
And so if there isn't substantive change on that front,
nothing else matters. It's what I'm saying. I really believe
that nothing else matters. It doesn't, it won't break through.
And I understand that. You know, these boomers vote too.
I again, people give you a lot of crap for
California housing. It's a tough problem. The more I look

(33:41):
into it, it's I used to be someone who just
threw around blame really easily, and now I read more
it's me depressed because it's like it's an impossible, complex problem.
People that have the housing, they put their life savings
into it. That's the retirement.

Speaker 3 (33:52):
If you try to bring housing prices down, well, then
now that person's mad. I get it. But if it
doesn't change.

Speaker 2 (33:58):
We're screwed.

Speaker 3 (33:59):
There's no getting around.

Speaker 1 (34:00):
This is an angry, nihilistic generation that once changed back.

Speaker 2 (34:03):
No and what was the quote unquote California housing crisis
going back decades in decades, supply demand, imbalance, nimbiism, A
lot of issues around localism. Now it's one. Now it's
across the board, all across the United States. People are
feeling those pressures. And that's why I think you brought
up as a client a moment ago. We had them
on the podcast too, the whole abundance agenda and focusing
on away from process paralysis and law fare and all

(34:28):
of the nimbiasm to a ymb yes in my backyard,
not know in my backyard mindset, in order to break
through that and to start to address that supply demand
in balance to lower costs to ultimately provide more act
points of opportunity. So I think you're one hundred percent right,
and I think it's only reinforced the broader analysis by

(34:49):
the fact there's a lot of Trump supporters that otherwise
would be Burning supporters or well, absolutely well, or vice versa.
So this is the sort of notion of populism, and
not in the pejorative sense, but true representative sense recognizing
what's missing and giving voice to that. Now, the question
is the prescriptions that Trump's offering, as you suggest, I

(35:09):
couldn't agree with you more, are sort of proven to
do precisely the opposite. I mean, the largest tax increase
on middle class and working folks, I eat tariffs, inflation
that's now starting to go back up, and fed policy
that is actually not accelerating in terms of decline and
interest rates. But because of those uncertainties, particularly as relates

(35:30):
to pressure of inflation, now is not necessarily moving as
quickly to lower borrowing costs as we are an otherwise hope.
So I totally agree with that. So let's talk just
about that. I mean, Scott Galloway.

Speaker 3 (35:42):
Took his class.

Speaker 1 (35:44):
When I was at Nvidio, I was in Scott's class,
and he's one of the people. The way he spoke,
not even the content of what he said, the way
he presented. I was like, that is that is something
I can learn from, and I took to that. So
when I was starting to dream.

Speaker 2 (35:56):
Yeah, and you know Scott, for those that don't know,
we also have out on the pod as well. He's
I mean, he really speaks to the gen Z generation.
He speaks in generational terms as theft. You look at
this big, beautiful bill and all this massive tax cuts
that are burdening the generation that is increasingly already feeling

(36:17):
like no one gives a damn about them. Yeah, so
it just reinforces I think the caught arms that you're
suggesting here in terms of consciousness, that is, as it
relates to the moment.

Speaker 1 (36:26):
Yeah, and again, you know, I think these these trends
were in a bad direction before Trump, but he has
done absolutely nothing to help. I mean, the bigot of
bill is a disaster. It is a massive, multi trillion
dollar credit cards wipe that we younger people are gonna
have to pay.

Speaker 3 (36:43):
And I don't know it.

Speaker 2 (36:45):
It's it.

Speaker 1 (36:46):
I'm not suggesting getting rid of Social Security anything, but
it is. It is frustrating as a young working person
that the biggest line item on the government budget is
checks to older people, many of whom have houses in
have a paycheck to it for. You know, it is
just I think we are not seeing enough go to

(37:07):
people that are trying to get started in this in
the country and and get on the ladder.

Speaker 2 (37:12):
And do you see it from I mean, and so
there's tax policy that's obviously profound and outsize. You know,
it's interesting when Steve Bannon on as well, and you know,
he was arguing for progressive tax policy. I said it
certain point, I said, Steve, you sound like you're governor
of California arguing for California's progressive e've ban in tax pay.

Speaker 3 (37:31):
Yeah, he argues for Lena Kahn as well. It's a
shocker to me.

Speaker 1 (37:33):
I'm a huge Lena Khon fan, and I want to
I wanted to push that with you as well. Listen,
those years I'm talking about those low uh inequality years
in America again probably golden years of America. Maybe social
policy we could improve, but that's the golden years of Economically.

Speaker 3 (37:48):
The key things of that era. We had strong unions.

Speaker 2 (37:51):
We had a.

Speaker 1 (37:52):
Progressive tax policy that had high tax rates on the
on the on the witeous people.

Speaker 2 (37:57):
We had.

Speaker 1 (37:59):
An anti trust enforcement that stopped constant consolidation. Again, this
Jimmy Kimmel thing. People aren't talking enough about how it's
so clearly Next Star trying to merge with Tegna to
get an inordinate amount of affiliates in this country. And
they are just saying whatever Trump wants to hear so
that they can get this bill, this bill sign.

Speaker 3 (38:18):
It's uh.

Speaker 1 (38:20):
It all comes back to economics, is what I'm trying
to really get across. And and it's a it's a
core part of my content is we can we can
fight forever on social issues and we always will. And
and in the social media area, I just realized how
useless it is because algorithms will give you the opinion
you want and the one you hate, and they'll make
that one look stupid, and they'll give you the comments

(38:40):
that support you.

Speaker 3 (38:41):
And it's just no point in argue. I'm tired of it.

Speaker 1 (38:43):
Most people are tired of it, and so I just
think we have to just we had a really rain
like focusing on the economics, because that's where we're gonna
make a difference. People can feel that change. They can
feel rents are going down in La. I've noticed it.
I saw, I saw stept. People do feel it. It
takes a while. They probably don't give everybody credit. They're

(39:04):
not giving it, but but it happens. If you guys
could get at California the high speed rail built. I know,
it's like an impossible legal challenge and everyone blocks it
every step.

Speaker 3 (39:13):
I'm not.

Speaker 2 (39:14):
We're on the other side of the legal environmental We're
actually starting to lay track. We're actually decades and decades.
I can't make up for the past, but I can.
I have to be accountable to the present, and we're
finally laying tracks. We're finally moving forward on the damn project.
Two two hundred and seventy parcels had to be procured
through eminent domain and other means decade of just just

(39:36):
moving like in quicksaning inches and then all the environmental
where all that now is behind us, finally moving to
lay the damn track.

Speaker 1 (39:45):
And I want to say, when someone gets on that
train and rides it and it makes their life five
ten percent more convenient, they notice, they feel it.

Speaker 3 (39:53):
That stuff does matter. And I just so let's.

Speaker 2 (39:58):
Say YouTube about housing, rents, rents too damn high? Sure
housing transportation? What else? I mean, how about wages? I mean,
is that sure?

Speaker 1 (40:06):
So gen Z men, unemployment for gen Z men who
are college graduates is the same as those that haven't
graduated college. They're getting this degree and getting no material
benefit in terms of the stats.

Speaker 2 (40:17):
You know, No, that's just and that's just started. We're
just starting to see that Jake shape. There was always
that college premium. And now for the first time with
these remarkable it's this was not quote unquote as people said, Oh,
you've got this sort of useless philosophy degree and you
can't get a real job with it. Now these are
folks with actual those computers and computer science and.

Speaker 3 (40:37):
They can't they can't get a job.

Speaker 2 (40:38):
And and by the way, philosophy is not useless. In fact,
in many ways, philosophy is the preferred course nowadays, which is.

Speaker 3 (40:47):
Yeah no so yeah they are they are.

Speaker 2 (40:53):
Sorry no so, I mean you're re entering a job market.
It's more difficult than ever people now. People don't even
want to go to college, right, I mean, you get
this your teal frame.

Speaker 1 (41:01):
So look, not only did they're not getting the premium
from going to college.

Speaker 3 (41:05):
College has never been more expensive for these young men.

Speaker 1 (41:08):
Especially for these Gen Z people who had to go
to college during COVID. I can't tell you what a
sucker punch it has to be to pay way more
than your parents ever paid to go to Zoom College
where yeah, and this is not you know, we talk
about discord and Reddit and gaming shanging in the world.
I got to talk to you as well as well
about AI and chat GPT. Listen, Governor, I don't know

(41:32):
if someone else that your staff is telling you this.
Every high school in California, and there's great ones. Every
college in California, people are cheating with Chad GPT. Professors
are writing Rubert's CHATGBT and then grading with CHATGUBT. People
are paying absurd amounts of money to get to do
not it's all a farce.

Speaker 3 (41:49):
And I'm not saying it's everybody.

Speaker 1 (41:51):
People are very smart and learning, but this is happening
and we have again this is a bigger problem with Trump.

Speaker 3 (41:57):
But our secretary education is like from the WWE, it's.

Speaker 2 (42:00):
It's literally it's yeah, literally, though I think you're making
that up. Actually was the co founder, Yes.

Speaker 3 (42:09):
And I see a speech with her and she's talking
about how these kids need to learn about A one.

Speaker 1 (42:13):
She doesn't even know what she can't even pronounce it
a one. And this is changing literally education rapidly. So again,
I I.

Speaker 3 (42:21):
Hate to put it all on you. You're one person in.

Speaker 1 (42:23):
It, but I'm just this is my my id screaming
out to the void that I'm hearing is like things
are changing rapidly, and I don't feel like the d
n C particularly is like throwing out the old playbook.

Speaker 3 (42:36):
That's that's it. It just won't work.

Speaker 2 (42:39):
And and are you and when you when you went
the folks that you're interacting with, are they Is this
a gender issue as well? From the perspective, it's an
interesting question.

Speaker 3 (42:49):
Uh, definitely.

Speaker 1 (42:51):
It feels like young women are adapting more to the
society we have now they are just finding a way
to get to college, get on the corporate ladder. And
you know, I think got Gallway talks about this. There's
an idea generally that men are fine dating sociod economically
equal or down, and women dien'ally want to date equal
or up. So it reduces the amount of partners available

(43:13):
for men who can't get on the economic ladder, which
makes them more disengaged and more. You know, it's a
it's a snowball effect. Again, it's not women's fault, but
this is this is what's happening, and it creates this
simmering misogyny in online spaces, and it creates this But
it comes back to economics. Is all I can say
over and over again is it comes back to economics.

(43:34):
And again, if I could spoil it down to one word,
it's like radicalism is when no house, if you can't
get a house, if you don't see a path.

Speaker 2 (43:43):
To get a house. And I hear this all the time.

Speaker 3 (43:45):
They're there.

Speaker 1 (43:46):
Some of them are working, they're working decent jobs, they're
working hard. It's not even feasible in a lot of
these cities to ever get a house. You can't save
up enough or without taking on an absurd amount of debt. Ever,
it's just not possible.

Speaker 3 (43:58):
And uh, and if you picked one thing to focus
in on, that would be it, because they that's the
biggest thing to put.

Speaker 1 (44:06):
You as part of society or outside of society. If
once you feel like you can get on that ladder,
you're okay, you can calm down, you can find a party,
you can vote. But if you can't see that, it's
what's the point. Why am I doing it? Why am
I working this job for a boss? I hate for
wages that are only okay, I'm never gonna get another
step up. So yeah, yeah, I feel like I've said

(44:27):
that enough.

Speaker 2 (44:27):
I no, no, look again, I appreciate it and again,
bouncing back and forth because it's I think it's important
you talk about you. You brought up the frame the
word misogyny. Yeah, and finding back to the sort of manosphere. Yeah,
it comes in many forms and manifestations. So I think
there's sort of a laziness quote unquote the manosphere of
what it means or doesn't mean. But there are misogynistic

(44:49):
aspects of the manosphere. And there are people that have
been very successful in that space, the sort of Andrew
Tates of the world and some respects, I mean, the
fair un far Edwin Ross and you know, the Joel
Peterson tires. Yeah, I mean, what what do you what
do you make of that in the context of the
vernacular of the world that you you've been navigating and

(45:10):
generationally what you're sort of understanding of all that.

Speaker 1 (45:13):
I'll tell you the worst part about consecration, Uh, Gavin
Newsom is that that's fun.

Speaker 3 (45:20):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (45:21):
My dad's a lifelong Republican. He uh not not a Trumper,
thank god, but he so. I don't think he's the
world's biggest Gavenusom fan.

Speaker 2 (45:28):
Baby.

Speaker 1 (45:29):
But I did a very small interview with you a
while agall livestream.

Speaker 3 (45:33):
Yeah, and I called you Gavin.

Speaker 2 (45:35):
Yeah, he called me afterwards.

Speaker 3 (45:36):
He said you called him governor.

Speaker 2 (45:38):
I appreciate him, but I also appreciate you. Gavin words
the military news scum, but from the trust I think
you can tell I could handle Gavin better than new scum,
which the six year olds used to call me. The
hell of a thing. When an eighty six year olds
calling me that, eighty nine, mister Trump, you're eighty nine. Uh.

Speaker 1 (45:56):
The misogyny Okay, here's the thing about consecration is you
have a direct financial incentive at all times to feed
into people's resentment and to feed into their anger, and
to feed into it is just the way the algorithms work.
I thought about this deeply in the wake of Charlie Kirkhouse,
thinking about what I wanted to say, and I was
looking around the internet, and I realized, it doesn't matter

(46:17):
what I say, It'll just be fed to the person
that agrees with me. It doesn't if I say something
that pisces somebody off, they'll never see it again.

Speaker 3 (46:24):
It'll it'll go into the void. We are going through
an algorithm that just decides what you want to see.
So in that case, there is a strong financial incentive
to tell people who can't find a house or a
partner that it's immigrant's fault, or it's women's fault, or
it's you whoever it's or it's the woke mind virus
or what they'll tell you, it's someone's fault. And that's

(46:44):
very comforting.

Speaker 1 (46:45):
Yeah, it's very very comforting if you're in that spot
to have an enemy, to have someone you can rally
around and get angry at and again on the space
I'm in in Twitch, the most right wing aspects of
Twitch are mostly talking about how man, these people are
ruining gaming, you know, because it's people want to play games.
They'll be like, oh, there's there's these female characters lead

(47:06):
it in leading the game, and it's like, again, this
is a tiny problem, but it unites these people them
in the rally around, and so.

Speaker 3 (47:16):
Yeah, yeah, it's a It's a symptom. Is what I'll
say though, is the missogery? I mean, it's probably amplified
by this, but it's because they are resentful and someone's
going to fill that void and tell them it's this
person's problem.

Speaker 2 (47:26):
So is that I mean, is that why tell me?
I mean a lot of these spaces, I mean, then
there's sort of that echo chamber, and then you get
that confirmation bias, the algorithms reinforcing that your worldview is
colored in, it's amplified, it becomes bigger, and you become
more convinced or ideological in that space at the same time,
and in some places that leads you to you know,

(47:49):
comfortable place. Other places can leave you a radicalized place,
which could manifest offline in pretty you know, pretty significant ways.

Speaker 1 (47:58):
Right, Yeah, what I'll say is people have gotten radicalized
in human history without these platforms. Yeah, and it's because
it's you know, it's usually when inequality has reached a
breaking point. You go to the twenties and thirties or
whatever in.

Speaker 2 (48:13):
Germany.

Speaker 1 (48:13):
I don't think they were I don't think Germans were
a different people. They were just they had hyperinflation, they
had bad economic problems, and it led to radicalization. This
happens in human history all over. People people feel like
they can't get on the ladder, they start going to edges.
I do think that the Internet has made it faster,
it's made it quicker, it's made it more virulent. It
lets people get larger groups quick. There's a danger to that,

(48:36):
but it's not the it's not the core of the problem.
It's not banning. It will not change things.

Speaker 2 (48:41):
What I'm trying to say, Yeah, you know, and the
example of Nepal is a cautionary Yeah. Respect and that's
a hell of a cautionary tale. People don't not familiar
with it. I mean, just look that, Uh, look it
up and to see what happened and of just an
almost just they lit a match, so they did, and
how almost overnight that rat at lease change the course.

Speaker 1 (49:01):
It's actually incredible because you know, I'm in the Nepalese.
Their gen Z movement is all in a giant eight
hundred thousand person discord server, and they're voting to decide
the next prime minister, which they interim prime minister.

Speaker 3 (49:14):
They're gonna have an actual vote, but it's it is
a wild.

Speaker 1 (49:18):
Small example of how the Internet is going to fuse
with these actual resentments to create change, whether people like
it or not, unless they're addressed.

Speaker 2 (49:27):
What do you just in terms of addressing more broadly
what's going on in the Internet, what's your sort of
broader sense of social media's responsibility in that space to
police itself, to police to police well speech, to deal
with the extremes, to have at least some cues that

(49:50):
expressed some concern. Yeah, if things I mean or is
it just complete?

Speaker 3 (49:55):
It's a very tough question.

Speaker 1 (49:56):
I don't know if I have the answer to it,
because the answer everyone will give you is obviously there's
some speech that is too far, but nobody knows. You know,
people have such different views, and so one person's this
is a totally normal fair thing to say, is the
other person that's horrible. Disinformation needs to be banned. And
we've seen the shoe on both feet. Now, we've seen

(50:17):
people that are really mad about, uh, the way Twitter
handled itself during COVID are now hyper defending the president's
right to take down a late night host for making
a mild jab in his direct I mean, it's people
are very hypocritical on this front, because free speech sounds
great when it's the speech you like. So I don't,
I don't, I don't have the I'm not the guy
to give you the right answer on that. I would

(50:39):
just say, you know, human history has shown time and
time again the censorship.

Speaker 3 (50:45):
Is is.

Speaker 1 (50:46):
A tool for people that cannot win in the public sphere.
They can't find a way to get their point across.

Speaker 2 (50:52):
So is violence. Yeah, and violence, yeah, one hundred percent. Yeah,
what what about you just go back to just AI generally?
I mean, how is that? And I'm just curious in
terms of just what's happening in the gaming space as
well more broadly, Yeah, even in the esports space, what's
happening as well? Gambling how I mean, and how it
just seems to me that's sort of an inter of

(51:13):
part of all of this as well. We talk about
what you know, kick and others. It sort of seems
like they're moving more and more in that direction. Crypto gaming,
I mean, are gambling what I mean? It just maybe
illuminate a little bit.

Speaker 3 (51:26):
Yeah, I would love to talk to you about.

Speaker 1 (51:28):
You know, people are talking about how video games are
the problems with young men. I'll tell you the biggest
two things that are destroying young men's ability to get
financially on their feet is crypto and gambling. Sports gambling particularly,
These two things are a a viral cancer that are
just ripping these people's ability to get a financial leg

(51:49):
up apart. Young men are are attacked with ads non
stop on off rink because again, if you are financially stuck,
if you don't see a path to with your normal
wages getting a house, then you have to take that
one hundred x bet, you take that odd you to
take that crazy bet. And whether that's punting all your
money on a weird meme coin and praying, or it's

(52:09):
putting it on seven leg parlay on DraftKings, that is
why they're doing this, and that is just stealing their
money every day, and it's making them more frustrated and depressed.

Speaker 2 (52:22):
Again.

Speaker 1 (52:22):
I find those two things. I speak about them all
the time, those two things and buy now, pay later.
These buy out, pay later companies.

Speaker 3 (52:28):
Are just offering people the ability to buy things they
cannot afford and putting them on stuck in debt cycles
early on small purchases. People are buying out pay later
in groceries and and.

Speaker 1 (52:41):
All these three things. Yeah, crypto game, I'm glad you
buy this up. These things are what I'm seeing among
gen z. The most are just attacking them financially and
at the time when they really don't need it. They,
more than any boomers can take this. Gen Z cannot
take loss of you know, this month's paycheck on a crypto.
They just can't do it. And so uh yeah, I

(53:03):
am strongly. I mean, it's so crazy because we barely
regulated crypto under Biden. We were making them progress and
now it's out the it's out the window, Kevin. I mean,
it's the president made five billion off a meme coin.
It's it's ridiculous. I find it so deeply frustrating when
I see these crypto grifters or David Sachs as a
cryptos are with all these business interests.

Speaker 3 (53:24):
It's so frustrated.

Speaker 1 (53:25):
And to see them just milk regular people dry on
on uh on crypto and and and then every sports
thing you watch is.

Speaker 2 (53:34):
Five hundred gambling ads. Uh I don't know. Yeah, sorry,
I went on a rant there.

Speaker 3 (53:39):
Those two things. Actually I'm very passionate about because I
don't see the upside. I really don't.

Speaker 1 (53:43):
I don't see who's benefiting outside of you know, putting
a casino in everybody's pocket is just a stupid idea.

Speaker 2 (53:50):
No, look, I mean I'm I'm dealing with it with
my son right now that the thirteen year old is
like definitely, well, you know, why are you working? You know,
you're such a loser. Usually make you one hundred and
seventy grand a year as governor sympathetic you know, I'm
making I made, you know, fifty bucks. Look at this
fifteen minutes, you know, and look at what Now I'm
done a three buck Wait, no, I make seventy five.
Like literally is like an attic waking up and late

(54:13):
at night, giving the phone, Give me a phone just
one second to see if.

Speaker 3 (54:16):
He's chex stalks three dollars or on robin one hundred percent.
Damn that is what's happening, and that idea of like
why the hell would I work? Why would I add
up my money over thirty years?

Speaker 2 (54:26):
No, he thinks I'm the biggest idiot in them.

Speaker 1 (54:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what I've seen all the time.
You know, I talk finances to my audience a lot.
It's a big part of my contents business and finances,
and man, they just they're being fed this idea that
like the saving money is is stupid. It's stupid, It'll
never work. Inflations can eat that away. You have to
take these high risk beds. Yeah, but they don't frame
him as high risks. They frame him as guarantees. They

(54:49):
frame him his shirt. I made the mistake of buying.

Speaker 2 (54:53):
Getting YouTube videos of Warren Buffett or bored getting him,
then coloring books that are versions of worn By If
it's lessons, he's like old guy, Yeah, who is this guy?
What is? What the hell is? You know? There's this
dude that's online. Man that just told me like literally,
I don't even remember who is the financial advisor is,
but he's some guy like literally some YouTube guy. Yeah

(55:14):
that is that is. Luckily we only have a thousand
bucks that he's been able to say so will survive
is lesson, but hopefully I'll have an early lesson. Look,
I appreciate the lesson though you're you're you're trying to
preach here at least express is a deeper understanding of
these more systemic issues, and that we can get caught
up and finding scapegoats, we can get caught up and

(55:36):
finding conspiracy theories or just the easy out. And as
you suggest, I mean, if the oversight, if the lessons
on what what is alleged to have occurred UH with
this tragedy with Charlie Kirk, is to then haul up
people on Discord UH and the CEOs of Twitch and
and all these things we're missing a deeper.

Speaker 1 (55:56):
Deeper Yeah, I think it's it's it's a massive wrong
direction that is just going to to lead to more
of what we're already seeing, more spiraling, more, more anger more.
I feel like the politicians don't hear the voice, don't understand,
you know, if they want to haul up these CEOs
and ask them about how the platforms work, get about
understanding that, sure, but if they're there to like point

(56:17):
the finger that Discord caused.

Speaker 3 (56:18):
This, or or Twitch caused this.

Speaker 2 (56:20):
It's it.

Speaker 1 (56:22):
I just promise you, it's absurd. I promise you it
will change nothing. They'll go, They'll go, They'll go deeper
into the Internet. They'll just burrow deeper somewhere else. These
are relatively safe, moderated platforms. These are not the problem.
This is it's just people using the Internet to try
and find connection where they can't find it in real
life because there's there's not opportunities.

Speaker 2 (56:44):
Lemonade Stand. What's the what's the goal with the podcast
is it? Is it to illuminate an entrepreneurial mindset, the
notion of a lemonade stand Many of our first business
experiences with selling lemonade, differentiating our brand, decommoditizing a common
selling it for an extra five cents, twenty five cents,
or you know, fresh lemonade versus the sugar version. What's

(57:07):
what's the idea behind it?

Speaker 1 (57:08):
Lemonade stands our podcast. It's myself, my friend Aiden, and
my friend Doug. All of them are concentrators, Doug Doug,
Doug Doug eager to get your homeworn buddy. And the
idea was, we are three guys who are only qualified
to run a lemonade stand. We're not We're not bringing
deep es bertise here. We have business backgrounds, we have,
you know, backgrounds of our own. We've started these media

(57:29):
these small media companies. But really we're we're just going
to do our best to understand and read about what's
going on and present it in a way with the
lingo and the slang and the of what this audience wants.

Speaker 2 (57:39):
To hear it in.

Speaker 1 (57:40):
That's the idea. We're not going to be right about everything,
but we're not going to be trying to sway you.
We're not going to be trying we we have no
ulterior motive. We're just interested in talking about it with
each other.

Speaker 2 (57:52):
I love it. Well, it's fun to talk about everything
we just talked about with each other. I appreciate you
bring in your authentic voice and perspective on us, and
I also appreciate your stubbornness on pay attention to the
thing that is the thing that explains all of the
other things, and that are these sort of tectonic plates
of wealth and income inequality that are growing and growing,

(58:14):
and a divide that is not just a political divide,
that is a societal divide and unless we address uh,
forget which party you're associated with, but the whole fabric
of our society is going to fray apart. ADRUX, thanks
Man for being with us.

Speaker 3 (58:30):
Thank you

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Host

Gavin Newsom

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