October 28, 2025 • 54 mins
Science doesn’t always get it right the first time (or the second, or the third, or even the ninety-ninth!). And while we may chuckle at the outlandish things people believed or the goofy experiments they tried, we forget two things: 1) those failures helped us get where we are today and 2) a hundred years from now, people will probably be laughing at the “cutting edge” medical knowledge of today! In this week’s book club episode, Erin and I chat with two of our all-time favorite science communicators, Dr. Lindsey Fithzarris and Adrian Teal to discuss their newest book Dead Ends!: Flukes, Flops & Failures That Sparked Medical Marvels. This hilarious and insightful book, geared towards middle-school readers (but enjoyable for all ages!), frolicks through some of the strangest stories in the history of medicine, accompanied by delightfully grotesque illustrations. There’s learning, there’s laughter, but most importantly, there’s a lesson: failure is okay. Not just okay but a necessary part of science. Tune in for all this and more!
Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3WwtIAu
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Hi, I'm Aaron Welsh and this is this Podcast will
Kill You. Welcome to another episode of the tp w
k Y book Club series, where I interview authors of
popular science and medicine books about their latest exciting work.
This season, we've gotten to showcase some fascinating books and topics,
(01:05):
and we still have more to come over the next months.
If you'd like to see what books we'll be featuring
on upcoming episodes, head over to our website this Podcast
will Kill You dot com. Once you're there, click on
the extras tab, then find the link to our bookshop
dot org affiliate page. On that page, you'll find several
TPWKY booklists, including the fiction and nonfiction books that we've
(01:27):
referenced in our regular season episodes, as well as a
list of all the book club books past and future.
I'm always updating these lists, so check back in regularly
to see what has changed. I've got a sweet pro
tip for you, especially as the holiday season approaches. These
lists are a great resource to find gifts for the
nerdy book lovers in your life, and if you have
(01:50):
any suggestions for books that you'd like to see featured
in one of these episodes or thoughts you'd like to
share about past episodes or anything else you'd like to
send our way. The best way to get in touch
is the contact us form on our website. Okay, two
last things before moving on to the book of the week. First,
please rate, review, and subscribe if you haven't already. It
(02:12):
does help us out. And Secondly, you can now find
full video versions of most of our newest episodes on YouTube.
Make sure you're subscribed to exactly Right Media's YouTube channel
so you never miss a new episode drop. Contrary to
popular belief, failure is an option. In fact, sometimes it's
(02:32):
an unavoidable outcome, especially when it comes to science and medicine.
Your results don't support your initial hypothesis. Your experiment goes
horribly awry, the new treatment you were testing didn't lead
to any improvement. The inevitability of failure doesn't take the
sting away or make your ego any less bruised. We
(02:53):
view these failures as setbacks keeping science from moving forward.
In reality, failure is a fundamental part of progress. When
we reflect on the history of science and medicine, we
tend to highlight the triumphs, the breakthroughs, the inventions that
cured diseases and saved lives. We spend a whole lot
(03:14):
less time on the ideas or gadgets that didn't quite
work out, But those stumbles are just as important to
the advancement of science and medicine than the celebrated success stories,
and it's about time we acknowledged what they've helped us
to achieve, which is not only knowledge like how to
not do something, but also that failure is okay. In
(03:39):
this week's episode, we are thrilled to be joined by
medical historian and award winning author doctor Lindsay Fitzharris and
caricaturist and cartoonist Adrian Teal to discuss their latest book,
dead Ends, Flukes, flops and Failures that sparked medical marvels.
Dead Ends is this power couple's second book geared to
(04:01):
younger audiences middle school age, but honestly, I think that
all ages would love it, and in it they showcase
some of the shocking, strange, and often humorous ways that
medicine didn't quite get it right the first or second
or third time, stories featuring observations of guillotine heads, terrifying
(04:22):
saws to speed up amputations, fad diets, and cow milk
transfusions are accompanied by delightful and vivid illustrations of the
physicians involved in these outlandish experiments. Blending dark humor with
fascinating factoids. Fitz Harris and Teel take readers on a
frolicking journey that spans the centuries of medical mishaps. But
(04:46):
underneath the rivening stories and grotesque illustrations is a powerful
lesson Failure is an essential part of science. It's easy
to get frustrated when science doesn't have all the answers.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Some of the way.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Science is taught as a set of facts, as a
forward march of progress, we don't realize how much we're
still figuring things out, and that the knowledge that we
have today will at some point in the future be replaced.
Dead Ends reminds readers that it's okay to fail. Erin
and I have been dying to have Lindsay Fitzharris on
(05:23):
this podcast for the longest time. Her other books, The
Butchering Art and The Facemaker, geared to adult audiences, are
some of our all time faves, and so Erin will
actually be joining me for this episode, and I am
so thrilled to share this with you all. So, with
only the slightest bit more ado in the form of
an ad break, let's get right to the interview. Lindsey
(06:08):
and Adrian, Welcome to the show. This has been such
a long time coming. We are thrilled to have you here.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
We are so excited as well, and to share some
gory stories of medical history with you guys.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Yeah, we're thrilled. I am a huge fan girl.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
My one of my professors gave us all of the
students in my med school class the Butchering Art like
before we graduated as a gift, and that was my introduction,
and I've just been obsessed ever since.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
So I am really fangirling right now.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
You know it it was at your first introduction to
medical history as a subject.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
I think so honestly.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
I mean we had been already been doing the podcast,
so like I knew, you know, from Aaron, I had
learned a lot of things, but yeah, we don't learn
medical history in med school, and so it was like,
and I think that's why he gifted it to everyone,
because he found it also to be like so important
and like such a huge part of what we never
actually learn.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
And I just was amazed.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
It's interesting because in the UK, where I went, despite
this Chicago accent, I've lived here for twenty three years.
In Britain, though, they do teach medical history to medical
students in the first year, which I think is great
because I think it's really important that doctors be able
to contextualize where they've come from where they're going. And
I always tell audiences when I talk about the Butchering Art,
(07:27):
which is about Joseph Lister and germ theory, what we
know today isn't going to be what we know tomorrow,
and we have to keep an open mind. And that's
very much what dead Ends this children's book is about
as well.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
I loved so much all of the stories of dead Ends,
but I also loved the message, and so I'm very
curious how you got the initial spark of the idea
for this book and then how that evolved eventually into
the ultimate message that this book tells.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Yeah, well, I'm going to pull out see now, people
who follow me and have followed my brand for a
long time, they're so sick of this story. But I'm
going to do it anyway. I know bockwork saw so
I had. I used to have a YouTube series called
under the knife, and the way into the stories was
through objects, and so the first one we ever did
(08:15):
was on the clockwork saw when we created a replica
of it, and it was one of my favorite weird
objects for medical history because it was a massive failure
and it was invented by this guy named W. HB.
Winchester in the nineteenth century at a time when speed
was really important, and so the idea behind it, you
always call it the pizza wheel.
Speaker 5 (08:33):
The pizza pizza, that's right.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
Yeah, So it's circular. For people who are just listening,
it's a circular saw, and in the middle there would
have been a crank and you would crank it, you
would release it and it would continuously spin. And so
he thought this was great. He takes it into the
operating theater and it ends up it's way too unwieldy
and he ends up taking off his assistants finger. So
this is a bit of a disaster, and in fact,
(08:55):
it was so bad that it never made it out
of prototype phase. And so there's only one in distance,
which is at the Hunterian Museum in London. We've recreated
it here and I just I've always loved failure as
a concept, and I think it's something that we don't
talk about enough in science and medicine, right, you know.
And we saw we were talking earlier with a journalist
(09:16):
about the COVID pandemic and how people were really uncomfortable
with the advice changing. But to me that was a comfort.
That meant that our doctors are learning more about this
virus and that they're changing their advice. And that's exactly
what you want to see with the scientific process.
Speaker 5 (09:31):
So yeah, and that's part of the scientific method, is
that you change your theories and you change your approach
your practices as more information comes in. That's how you
want the world to be, you know. Yeah, And so
this book, as much as anything else, it is about
that kind of the evolution of the scientific method and how,
you know, the things you could get away with two
three hundred years ago as a scientist or a doctor,
you certainly aren't going to be getting away with today
(09:52):
because things, you know, evolve and change, and that's how
it should be.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Yeah, And it's not just okay to fail, it's to fail,
especially in medicine and science. And we're hoping that that
will resonate with kids, you know, everybody in the age
of social media is obsessed with perfection, you know, presenting
a perfect version of ourselves, a perfect version of our
own histories. And you know, if you think you've made
(10:17):
a mistake, look at you know, some of these geniuses
from the past, a lot of them have wrapped up
some pretty big mistakes.
Speaker 5 (10:23):
So somebody like Thomas Edison, who's by no means perfect,
but he did say, you know, I haven't failed, I've
just found ten thousand ways that don't work. You know. Yeah,
it's part of the process of getting to where you
need to be, rather than to be ashamed of that.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
So we always loved failure. But also Adrian who's my husband,
he has a very particular set of skills as a characterist.
I have a very particular set of skills, and we
were like, how can we combine this into something that
could be useful to people? Because we really.
Speaker 5 (10:50):
That's how the first book that played was born really
was yeah, because we just wanted to work together on something.
And Linda's great with the history and she's great with
getting the stories you know structured. Oh what I do
is because I'm a manchild, I can make it then
friendly kids, so I can then look at it, and
because Lindsay will be writing something so I don't know
how to make this, you know, readable, I said, well,
(11:11):
don't worry about that. Just write it like you'd write
it for an adult, and then we can work that
out later on. You know.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
Yeah, unsurprisingly, it was very difficult to take these complex
concepts and then whittle it down and so that that
was a real challenge. But you brought the humor and
the great illustrations and you know, helps them dig up
a lot of these stories.
Speaker 5 (11:28):
We'll let you get a word in a minute. But
what I was going to say, I think we're going
to say, was is that with a kid's book, you've
only got twenty twenty five thousand words to play with.
So you'd think, oh, that's easy, you know, it's not
a very long book, but actually that means you have
to choose every word really carefully, and so if you're
trying to explain complicated scientific processes, that can be quite tricky.
(11:50):
So you're trying to walk a fine line, aren't you really?
Speaker 3 (11:53):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (11:53):
Definitely, I love though that you guys not only managed
to squeeze so much information in but also like use
words like butthole, multiple times, but that was too.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Out well the editor.
Speaker 5 (12:06):
The editor was quite keen on the idea of taking
that out, and I said, no, there's a poetry to
the word butthole that you just can.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
It really is absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
Also, I have to add that I dedicated, we dediticated,
caated this book to our mentors, and mine is doctor
Margaret Pelling, who's a very serious historian at Oxford who
is my supervisor. And I don't know yet how she's
going to view this, but you know, she was like, oh,
it's great to see medical history being brought to younger
and younger people. Over here in Britain, we have something
(12:37):
called Horrible Histories, which was huge in your generation growing up,
and so we kind of hope that that's that's filling
a slot over in the US with with this kind
of books.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
So yeah, let's take a quick break and when we
get back, there's still so much to discuss. Welcome back everyone.
We've been chatting with doctor Lindsey Fitzs and Adrian Teal
about their book dead Ends, Flukes, Flops and Failures that
sparked Medical Marvels. Let's get back into things.
Speaker 4 (13:09):
In addition to the story that you had already mentioned
about that, you know, first failure of a saw. There
are so many other incredible stories jam packed in this book.
Another favorite, which I think is also in The Butchering Art,
is Listed's three hundred percent case fatality surgery.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
It's one of my favorites.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
It's so good. I mean, it's so depressing, but so good.
So I'm wondering, like where exactly. Obviously you are a
medical historian, but like, where do you come across these stories?
Do you have just like a running list that you're like,
how many can we jam pack in here?
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Or how do you keep track of them?
Speaker 5 (13:42):
All?
Speaker 3 (13:43):
Yeah? I mean they're everywhere in medical history, I have
to say. And again, you know, I mean even when
I was writing The Facemaker, which is about Harold Gillies
who was rebuilding soldiers spaces in the First World War,
I think I said something like, you know, failure was
his constant companion and again really important for Gillies and
what he was able to achieve. And some of the
(14:03):
stories we tell in this book are dark, and you know,
I feel that we should acknowledge the failures of the
past and acknowledge the harm that was also done because
to hide it feels conspiratorial, and we are living in
an age where there is a decline in science literacy.
There's a decline in literacy period across the board, and
(14:25):
so I think it's important to tell the whole picture.
But the balances making sure that we're always you know,
cheering on science and medicine, because what we've been able
to accomplish over these centuries is incredible. You know, Adrian
and I recently both went through cancer. I went through
breast cancer and he went through prostate cancer, and we
caught ours very early. I always say we're living examples
(14:45):
of why early diagnoses is life saving. And when people
get diagnosed that I know, I always say today is
the best day to be diagnosed with cancer, and tomorrow
is going to be even better because the advances we
are making are tremendous. You know, my mother had a
double mastec to me in twenty twelve, and between that
and twenty twenty two when I was diagnosed, even in
(15:06):
that short span, the differences in our treatment were palpable.
So medical history is littered with failure, and there is
a comical value. You know, Robert Liston, he's six', two
he's this really tall. Guy he's known as the fastest
knife in The West. End he can hold you down
with his left arm and take off your leg in thirty,
seconds which is exactly what you would want in a
(15:28):
pre anesthetic. Era but he does have these sort of comical.
FAILURES i, mean i'll say comical to us, today, yeah.
Speaker 5 (15:35):
Because we all, know you, know comedy equals tragedy plus. Time, yeah,
right you can look at it with some, distance maybe
not so.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Comical you, know the assistant whose finger was accidentally cut
off and he dies of, infection and the patient dies of,
infection and then there's a spectator who he slashes the
coat and he dies of. Fright and it's jokingly referred
to as the only operation with the three hundred percent mortality.
Rate and it is kind of. Funny but you, know
when you look at somebody Like liston who had these
(16:06):
very dramatic, failures IF i was transported to a pre anesthetic,
ERA i would still Want Robert liston to do the
amputation because he still was the best of the. Best
AND i also remind people that as sort of funny
as these stories, are because they're so removed from us,
today it would have been really frustrating as a doctor
(16:26):
to go into that operating theater and to keep losing
patient after. Patient you are in the business of saving
lives and you cannot figure out what is killing your.
Patients and Until Joseph lister comes along with germ, theory
it was really, DEMORALIZING i can. Imagine so you, know
there's always that element, too you, know imagine being a
doctor at this, time and WHEN i talked to plastic
(16:49):
surgeons About Harold, gillies you, KNOW i can tell that
they're looking at the photos and, thinking, HMMM i would
have done that. Differently and THEN i, say, well let
me point out what you couldn't have. Done over one
hundred years. Ago there was no, antibiotics there was no you, know, YadA, YadA,
YadA and so it's it's important to remember always that
the people were talking about were really trying to, help
(17:10):
but they did sometimes inadvertently cause.
Speaker 5 (17:13):
Harm and that's another point we make is, that you,
know even when we're talking about remedies that just seemed
completely insane to us now that were happening two three
hundred years, ago they were doing the best they could
with the science they had available at the, time right
And that's all you can ask of the people that
are trying to help, you isn't.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
It? REALLY i always ask people what do you think
you know in a hundred, Years and for, ME i
always think it's going to be. CHEMOTHERAPY i think we're
going to find better things to replace. It chemotherapy is
very harsh on the, patient as we, know so eventually
we might find something that can replace. It right, now
it's it's the most, effective you, know thing we have
in our arsenal against many. Cancers but it's one of
(17:51):
those Treatments i'd love to see replaced in the future
with something just as, effective if not more.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Effective right it'll be featured in the city equal to Dead.
Ends but from, that can you believe that they did?
Speaker 2 (18:04):
This they used to just inject us with all of these.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Things, YEAH i want TO i want to talk about
the art and Dead ends, because like we talked, about you,
know comedy equals tragedy plus, time and comedy also equals
this incredible art that just is the chef's kiss perfection
to all of these incredible. Stories AND i want to
know more about the process of integrating these illustrations into the,
(18:29):
stories like what comes first how do those stories? Change
what how do you decide which snapshot to represent you,
know this particular.
Speaker 5 (18:37):
Story, well through most of my, career If i've been doing,
illustration it's usually been illustrating somebody else's. Work so that
what we had a sort of unfair advantage here because
IF i had a great idea for a, cartoon we
could tweak the text to make sure that it helped
the cartoon, along you, Know so that's that's all was was.
Good the other thing is THAT i think is important
(18:59):
about this book And Plague, busters is that we're dealing
with a lot of historical characters that kids are the
most adults won't have heard, of so the names won't
really mean anything to. Them but if you can produce
a caricature of them and give them some, personality it
brings them alive in a way that you, know a
photo from the nineteenth century of somebody, standing you, know
sitting very stiffly in a in a posed, portrait that
(19:20):
that won't.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
Convey we Have poe right back there that we. Did you,
know he's he's a great, caricaturist and you were fascinated
with faces from the very, start and he as a little.
Boy over here In, britain there was a big show
Called Spitting image and they use these caricatured puppets and
it was political. Satire and your, father who was a,
(19:41):
pharmacist didn't know what to do with, you and so
he called the creators a Spitting. Image and So adrian
is a little boy maybe ten years, old would go
to the workshop and he would learn how to sculpt
these these puppets and so, yeah and so they brought
the show back recently and you can see it now
on TikTok and, YouTube and it seems like a time
to bring political satire, back let's put it that. Way
(20:04):
and you've done eighty percent of the puppets and it's
been really good. Fun but it's always about first, impressions isn't.
Speaker 5 (20:10):
It it's about, personality and it's about first, impressions and
it's about making someone look more like themselves than they do.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
Themselves, yeah you're not always you're not really making fun of.
Speaker 5 (20:19):
That, WELL i mean there is an element of, that
of course there, Is but it's also about it's about
celebrating what makes that person that, person, Right, yeah and
you know that's why it's great to do. It with historical,
characters because then they come.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
Along he has this really great way of zoning in
on the thing that makes your face.
Speaker 5 (20:35):
Unique but the other thing about the inputations as, well
is that sometimes it's about not doing an. Illustration if
we've written a good enough description of, something if we've
painted a vivid enough word picture and it's you, know
as is often the, case and is quite, gruesome you
don't really need to have an illustration there to gild the,
lily if you see WHAT i. Mean, so, yeah sometimes
(20:57):
just to leave it, alone you. Know so you have
to be, SELECTIVE i have to say to the.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Publisher you, know they get very. Nervous adults get more.
NERVOUS i think that kids can handle a lot more
gruesome stuff than they give the kids credit. For so
there's always this push and pull, about you, know how
much is too much and what to put. In and
the original cover for this book we tell the story
of the guillotined heads during The French revolution and the
(21:21):
doctors who sort of hilariously tried to shout at them
and see if there was any kind of level of consciousness.
Left and so your, idea tell them what the?
Speaker 5 (21:30):
Cover my, original my original covers have the guillotine and
then have a seven head at the bottom of the guillotine.
Cartoon the doctor with a stethoscope listening to the, head
say there any signs of? Life and they, said, OH
i can't do, that it's far too. Gruesome but now
what we've, got which seems to be fine, apparently is
somebody that a corpse being. Electrocuted so it's sometimes hard to. See,
(21:52):
yeah line is.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
Yeah, YEAH i mean even With. Playbusters actually THE i
really loved our original concept for the, cover and again
they they were, like, no and it was it was
basically was a plague doctor with the beaked mask and
he had a crystal ball in front of him and
they were floating, us and it was kind of, like
what's the next big thing going to? Be WHICH i
(22:14):
thought was a really good nod to you, know the
the there will be more. Pandemics you. Know my grandma
would call me DURING covid and she'd, say have you
ever heard of anything like? This AND i was, like, Yes,
Grandma i'm out a historian and back to the the
last one, happened you, Know and so we would we
would we were constantly having this. Conversation BUT i liked,
(22:35):
it but they, said.
Speaker 5 (22:35):
Well crystal balls aren't real as.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
Well they, said, yeah so we were.
Speaker 5 (22:42):
Come up with. It they, did like you had dancing
plague rats in the background.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Again because dancing play rats are.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Real, yeah total makes. Sense challenge.
Speaker 4 (22:56):
The very first, CHAPTER i think the first image, is you,
know a head on a spike with just blood, everywhere
and we as we were reading it right before bedtime
the other. NIGHT i turned to that page and my
son was, like AND i was, like is this gonna
be too?
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Scary and he's, like, no keep.
Speaker 5 (23:13):
Going this is WHAT i was, says kids are. Horrible
but the way you, know.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
YEAH i grew up on a diet Of Stephen, king,
unsurprisingly SO i, was you, KNOW i was. DEFINITELY i,
think you know, again it is about kind of balancing that.
Speaker 5 (23:31):
Depends it depends on it.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
Does, yeah but a, good more big curiosity is a
healthy thing for a. Child and you, KNOW i CAN
i can, remember you, know my my grandmother partly raised
me and we would go to the cemeteries all the,
time and, people a lot of people think that's very,
creepy but for, me it's WHEN i first became interested
(23:54):
in the past and the people who lived in the
past and how did they live and how did they
die and what was their? Experience is SO i think
cemeteries are these, wonderful love filled places because people spend
money and thought and, time you, know memorializing somebody's. Life
but you, know, again it's it's what you're exposed. TO
i suppose at a younger age AND.
Speaker 5 (24:15):
I grew up watching and Loving Monty python and you
Know Terry gilliams animations On Monty. Python's, yeah if you
grow up, weird are you going to you, know stay,
weird don't?
Speaker 3 (24:24):
You?
Speaker 5 (24:24):
Ye this is.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
IT i was honored by my high school last, year
which was fairly, hilarious and we went. Back you had
the Most american experience of your, life going back to
This american high. School AND i got up and, SAID
i Guess i'm the proof that the weird kids can
thrive after. School and you, KNOW i, Mean i'm sure
you guys. Too you had, that you, know that weirdness
(24:46):
in you and you know your. Doctors but you do
this great podcast and you have this real passion for
science communication and getting those crazy stories out there and
getting people passionate about you, know this world, medicine and
SO i JUST i think the weird kids we do
we survive and.
Speaker 4 (25:04):
Thrive, YEAH i think the weird kids also we tend
to find each. Other, Yes and you guys mentioned, that
especially as you were starting your first book Together plaguebusters
and this, book that you mostly just like wanted an
excuse to work. Together So i'm, curious, like what is
the what is it like for you guys to work?
Speaker 5 (25:24):
Together surprisingly, harmonious isn't. It?
Speaker 3 (25:27):
YEAH i think. SO i mean it's, again you have
a skill set that's, different.
Speaker 5 (25:32):
But it seems to kind of slot, together doesn't.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
It. Yeah he also knows that there's this PROCESS i
go through where everything's. BAD i think the book is.
Terrible it's. Horrible we should just tell the publisher we're
not going to do, it because there's no Way i'm
going to put this out. There LIKE i even with
my adult, nonfiction like there's always, like.
Speaker 5 (25:49):
Yeah we have a couple of weeks of. That, yeah
we pushed through that and maybe get to the other.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
Side you stay calm and you're, like oh, maybe, yeah
maybe we can do. That and it's just it's you,
Know I'm i'm a real, perfectionist which actually being a
perfectionist is not a good thing to some, extent because
you know that famous quote that art is never, completed just. Abandoned,
yeah you, know it's you have to let go at
(26:15):
some point and put it out into the. World and you,
know when we put Out, plaguebusters it was really funny
because that cover to me really signaled this was a kid's.
Book but there were people who left reviews On amazon
that said this isn't up to the snuff of Fitz
harris's other. Books AND i was, like this is a kid's,
well how are people? Misunderstanding AND i.
Speaker 5 (26:35):
Read it in like two hours and it was, really,
yeah it's a kid's.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
BOOK i don't know what else to. Say it was really.
Funny LIKE i, said with this, ONE i think they've
done a better job on The amazon page of saying
this is for readers aged eight to. Twelve but, people,
yeah there was a lot of. Harumphing you, know you
can imagine the kind Of i'm sure you get, that
you know online they're the humph ump horrumphers right of
(27:00):
a certain, age and Fit's harris is writing for the TikTok.
Generation i'm, Like i'm writing for CHILDREN i don't know
what else to, Say like the dancing fratch should have
been the. CLUE i don't, know.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
But the well actually.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
Is.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Yeah oh, yeah it's.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
Frustrating yeah, yeah OH i love the well actually, yeah, WELL.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
I absolutely love you, know going back a little bit
to the we're all weird kids who somehow ended up
making a life of being weird and really thriving in that.
LIFE i think it's so incredible when people follow their
curiosity their interests and turn it into a career path
where they really end up getting to create something meaningful
and meaningful and true to, them like the way that
(27:51):
both of you have. Done AND i am wondering what
advice you would give your younger selves or someone who
maybe has a lot of for a particular subject but
doesn't quite know what to do with.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
That don't do. It, no you, know we always joke
about the struggles of being, freelancers but in a weird,
way this isn't WHAT i. Do it's WHO i. Am
and even WHEN i was an academic and doing my
PhD At, oxford they couldn't really beat that creativity out of.
Me and recently they asked me to come speak At
(28:26):
oxford AND i, thought, oh, dear you, know this is
gonna be. Interesting AND i got up AND i gave a,
speech AND i started by saying that WHEN i was
a little, GIRL i wrote a letter To Stephen king
AND i told HIM i wanted to be a writer
just like. Him AND i turns OUT i didn't become a,
novelist BUT i do go around horrifying people with medical.
History and there was a lot of nervous laughs amongst
(28:46):
The Oxford dons and one of my very the first
PROFESSOR i ever had in history of, Science Robert, fox
who's just an intellectual. Giant he was there and afterwards
he came up to, me and a student came up and, said,
oh you're so good at, speaking and he, said, oh,
yes did you learn that At? Oxford and Then adrian, said, NO.
Speaker 5 (29:10):
I think she hearned us skills on.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
YouTube and this old, PROFESSOR i, mean he was, like,
you you, know don't really know what to say to,
that but you, KNOW i now call myself a storyteller
first and, foremost AND i am a medical. HISTORIAN i
have a PhD and all of, that but it's really
the stories and connecting with audiences who have maybe never
(29:32):
thought about medical history as a, subject never even realized
it was a. Subject and that's where my passion. Is
and you, KNOW i think when you're genuinely. Passionate you,
know we live in an age of. Brands you, know
kids are obsessed with brands and how to build their own,
brand and to some, EXTENT i have built a brand as,
(29:52):
such but it never started out that. Way it was
just a blog THAT i started Called The Surgeon's. Apprentice
it was supposed to really just be little stories that
they wouldn't let me tell on academia that interested, me
and also to explain to people in my life what
medical historians. Do and it turns out that a lot
of people really gravitated towards that. Blog and SO i
think that my advice to anybody who's looking to do
(30:16):
that is just always be genuinely. Passionate if you are
trying to sell something just because you have an end
goal in, mind whether it's fame or a book deal
or a podcast or A tv, show money or, money
it's never going to. Work and you have to be
genuinely interested because audiences they can smell a. Fraud and you,
(30:37):
know this is why your podcast has done so. Well
you guys are genuinely passionate about this, this you, know
and that's what people gravitate. Toward and you can't teach
somebody how to do. That you just have.
Speaker 5 (30:48):
To it's about being true to yourself as. WELL i,
mean how often do you hear you, know comedians or
filmmakers or. Whatever i've been going back we talking about
multipith and briefly earlier, on you, know you ask any of,
them they, said when we did that, show we were
doing what we thought was. Funny and all you can
do is pursue that passion and hope that somebody else
engages with. It and that's really all of. IT i,
mean that's not to say that for every success, story
(31:09):
there aren't you, know five hundred people that didn't make.
It but you have to be true to. Yourself and
As lindsay, said you know WHAT i. Do you, Know lindsay,
says it's part of who she. Is WHAT i do
is absolutely part of WHO i, am AND i can't
imagine doing anything. Else there's no. Retiring it's not even
it sounds, pretentious you, know but it's not even LIKE
i have a, choice, Right it's what it's WHO i,
(31:30):
am and it's WHAT i.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
DO i, mean your your parents said that they put
a pencil in your hand at the age of, two and.
Speaker 5 (31:35):
It was like eighteen, months, yeah eighty.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
MONTHS a light bulb went, on and SO i, think
you know, again it's obviously there are real. Considerations you
do have to make, money you have to make a,
living and those things have to be. Weighed but it
really for, me you, know WHEN i write my adult,
NONFICTION i always, say Because i've just finished my next
my third, book which is going to be called Smooth,
hound which is a guy about a guy Named Joseph
bell who was the Real Sherlock, holmes and it's About
(31:59):
victorian five. Forensicks it's great. Fun but So i'm now
naturally thinking about what's the fourth, Book and SO i
often live with the ghosts for a few. Moms there's
a couple of people rattling around in my. Head who's
going to tell the most compelling? Story and that's what
it comes down, to you. Can't you. Know sometimes people
pick book subjects because they think it will make a great,
(32:21):
movie or they think, it's you, know going to fit
into the political. Times but if you artificially do that
it's never gonna. Work it has to. Be even With.
Facemaker when that came, out The Ukrainian war conflict started
and people were naturally asking about the return of trench,
warfare and we're seeing plastic surgeons going over there and
volunteering to help rebuild people's, faces much Like Harold gillies
(32:43):
did in The First World. War but that wasn't. Planned
and ultimately people have to make those those draw those conclusions. Themselves,
like my job is to tell really good, story and
whatever you do with that story is your. Business whether
you think The facemaker is a great anti war book
or what you think it's a great patriotic book that
makes you proud of the people who. Fought those are,
(33:04):
different you, know agendas that the reader is going to
bring to. It my, JOB i, think is to just
tell the most compelling STORY i.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Can let's take a quick break, here we'll be back
before you know. It welcome, back. Everyone we're here chatting
with the wonderful Doctor Lindsay fitzharris And Adrian teal about
their book Dead. Ends let's get into some more questions
back to the.
Speaker 4 (33:30):
Book obviously that we're here to talk about. Today Dead
ends and this kind of keeps coming. Up it even
came up in what you were just talking. About you've
we've touched a lot on this idea and this concept
that the book is mainly, about which is, this you, know,
failure is this.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Stop point on the way to.
Speaker 4 (33:46):
Success but the other big THEME i feel like that
emerges from this, book and you touched on it a
little bit already, too is how the scientific process is
this you, know iterative. Process and sometimes it goes quite,
fast as we saw DURING covid when things were changing so, rapidly.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
But for a lot of history it went very.
Speaker 4 (34:05):
Slowly and you GAVE i really loved the example Of
galen that you gave in the, book who was you,
know this wise figure had many failures and things that weren't,
right but so many that were that he.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
Was like really rarely ever.
Speaker 4 (34:20):
Questioned AND i know you, mentioned you, know chemotherapy is
one of the things that you hope is going to
change in the. Future but what do you, think like more,
broadly learning about the history of medicine can kind of
teach us about the way that we think of medicine
and medical advancements.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
TODAY i think that's such a great, question and you,
know we actually just reread this book, yesterday which sounds,
odd but you, know we're a. Couple i'm at least
one book ahead because a book takes a long time in,
production and so you have to kind of remind yourself
of what the book. Was and with this book on
like my other adult, books there's a lot of. Stories
it's not just one big narrative. Story SO i had
(34:58):
to kind of remind. Myself but the story we were
discussing between ourselves just this afternoon was the story Of Phineas,
gage which a lot Of americans. Know he was working
on the railroad tamping iron and this iron rod shot
through his, skull right through his, brain and he somehow,
survives and his doctor starts to know changes in his.
Behavior and what's interesting is that happens in the early nineteenth,
(35:21):
century and then in eighteen eighty four you have this
guy Named Daniel ferrier who comes Across gauge's story and
starts to wonder if certain parts of the brain control certain,
functions and he creates these brain, maps and the brain
map is used to correctly identify a brain, tumor and
a patient Named henderson in eighteen eighty, Four so that's
a long, burn and it really hinged On ferrier finding
(35:45):
this kind of strange story that at the time wasn't
very well known or very well. Publicized and the only
reason we really know About Phineas gauge is because Of
ferrier's brain. Maps SO i think it's important that kids,
realized as you, say that the process can be very
slow and not always a straight. Line sometimes there can
(36:06):
be all kinds of things that happen in the middle
that are, wrong and then we get back on. Track
and a lot of times it also has to do
with people being resistant to new ideas as, Well.
Speaker 5 (36:17):
Yeah being entrenched in a position just because that's what
people have always, done you. Know, yeah, again you, know
he had a terrible. Influence he was a very clever,
guy did some great stuff with you, Know cataract operations And,
searchlight but he got as much wrong as he got,
right and you, know his influence was to some extent
quite detrimental for a lot of, centuries wasn't.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
It and, actually, interestingly With galon and The Four, humors
a lot of the reasons why people were Blood light
in the past was because of. This there was this
idea that they were producing too much. Blood and, this
even After, harvey you, know proves the role of the
heart and circulation long long after. That there is a
photo THAT i sometimes post on social media from the
(36:58):
early twentieth century of someone being bled and what was
happening was older patients just felt like that's what you
went to the doctor, for and so they were still requesting,
this and sometimes doctors were doing it even though they
knew it wasn't. Useful and this is WHAT i think
today in the kin thing would be. ANTIBIOTICS a lot
(37:19):
of people go in instantly ask for. Antibiotics that's not always,
appropriate and now we're having antibiotic. Resistance so it's not
just on the medical. Community it's also what we ourselves
get used. To In, america were used to seeing a
doctor in a white. Coat over, HERE i never see
doctors in white. Coats And i've been treated at the
hospitals In london and they, say oh, no, no, no,
(37:41):
no not the white. Coats those, sleeves you, know that
could be very. Dirty and so there's a whole different
culture and so sometimes it takes generations to change those.
Attitudes AND i always kind of revert back To lister
because he was my first love in the butchering. Art
but Like, lister really the way he changes minds with
germ theory is he goes to the younger generation and
(38:01):
they become The. Listerians they become no one as The.
Listerians they go out and they spread the gospel Of.
Lister it's very. Showmanship there's a processional aspect to what
he's doing with the carbolic acid and sanitizing the surgical,
room and that's how they ultimately change people's. Minds but
it takes decades for this to. Happen so it's really
(38:22):
important that in the day and age where we want instant,
results and also where results in the science and medical
community often have to be justified by how much money it,
makes we need to remember that research for the sake
of research is really important and that some of the
biggest discoveries we've ever made were not goal oriented in.
Speaker 5 (38:44):
MIND i think another problem that doctors had in the
past was you could come up with a paradigm, shift
but the problem was getting the word, out wasn't. IT i,
mean right now you've got you, know journal, articals, websites social.
Media you can get the message out but in those
days it was more. DIFFICULT i Mean James lynd who
came up with a cure for. Scurvy you, know he
worked out lemon. Gee he didn't know why lemon juice,
(39:04):
worked but he realized it did. Work you, know that's.
Fine but he was just like a small time doctor
that he wrote a book about it and a few
people read. It but that didn't mean that scurvy is automatically,
cured you, know across the. World so it takes time
and hard work and dedication to to keep pummeling away
at these problems and changing minds and getting the will
the paradigm to actually, shift you.
Speaker 3 (39:26):
Know AND i was really looking forward to you finding
a way to bring scurvy into the conversation BECAUSE i
know The errands love scurvy as.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Well, huge huge fans of.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
Scurvy he loves, scurvy and he had convinced me to
put it In playbusters BECAUSE i was, like, Scirvy, like
who cares about scar fantastic, subject.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
Really it really.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
Is it's a really important part Of. PLAYBUSTERS i.
Speaker 3 (39:47):
Agree, Yeah well he convinced me BECAUSE i was, like oh,
yeah a lot of people really did die of. This
it was such a Weird it's such a weird one,
too because like your old wounds open off. Stuff.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Yeah i've been reading about a nautical medical history for
we're doing an episode on necrotizing fasci, itis and there
was a really interesting, yes, right there was a really
interesting book WRITTEN i think in like eighteen eight or
something like, that and they talk about like one of
(40:20):
the authors is in the discussion of these ulcers that
are just like you, know spread rapidly and end up
killing the. Sailor he's, like you, know And lynn was
talking about scurvy and how much of a problem he
saw back in the, day And i'm amazed that he
could find that many sailors with. SCURVY i see, no
like not no sailors these days with. Scurvy And i'm
(40:43):
just like to see that from like that, perspective like
he's already looking back like two hundred years, ago and
like what was the concept? Then how did they see
the pattern of you, know different transitions or these paradigm.
Shifts AND i feel like, SCURVY i, mean, YEAH.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
I know that story BECAUSE i talk about it in
The butchering art because doesn't it it the ulcerating it's
it's on a guy's. Penis IF i.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
Were ever and the number of penis is falling, OFF
i have read several by this, point not Like i've
just stumbled upon. THEM i have not sought them, out
and yet they find.
Speaker 5 (41:17):
Me Fa CAN i just say That lindsay is surprisingly.
Screaming so if you're watching a film and there's a gory, bitch,
yeah For god's, sake you might about what those penis
is falling.
Speaker 3 (41:28):
Off. Well it's funny because with the butchering ART i,
HAD i went all over the world with, it AND
i had three or four men. Faint it was always,
men by the, way who fainted WHILE i gave that,
Talk AND i think it was it. Wasn't it was the.
Suggestion you. KNOW i think when people put themselves on the,
table or they put themselves in that, position it can
(41:51):
get a little bit. Dicey it's.
Speaker 5 (41:52):
Not it's ALSO i think if you describe, IT i
think the movie that you have going on in your
head is worse than anything you can actually see In
forens Of. Me, right it's Like jaw with the. Shop.
Right he couldn't show the, shop, yeah but he made
the shop more scary by not showing the.
Speaker 3 (42:04):
Shop, yeah so with movies, today, yeah it's always a little.
Bit you, know there's there's talk about Adapting Face, maker
and you, KNOW i, said, well here the. Challenges you
have to show the, faces you have to show the
disfigured soldiers because we have to look at, that and you,
know but it's it's, hard AND i think when you're empathetic,
too it can be when you see it on, film
(42:25):
it can be very difficult to sort of, watch but
writing it doesn't.
Speaker 5 (42:29):
Feel quite it's.
Speaker 3 (42:30):
Bad BUT i do remember the penis falling, off AND
i REMEMBER i remember it BECAUSE i remember the surgeon
then saying like it was a big, description and then
it said he, died like at the, end like a.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
Corse he, died he, Died and then like the next
line is this is not an uncommon, story And i'm, like.
Speaker 2 (42:49):
What.
Speaker 3 (42:51):
It's a horrible, horrible like, horrible you, know you imagine
then in these nineteenth century operating, theaters it was just.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
Horrific i'm Also i'm very curious about the period of
time that you are most interested. In you, know we
talked about science being, stubborn and part of that is by,
design of, course, like we, can't you, know completely change
the field or rewrite the textbook based on one. Paper
we have to build the body of evidence for. That
BUT i feel like the nineteenth century is just ripe
(43:20):
with these transformative moments where we have germ, theory we
have sort of vaccines are starting to take, off we're
finally having an UNDERSTAND i mean. Evolution all of these
things are mixing together at, once and we might be
a little bit too close to the twentieth century to
really see the same. Patterns i'm not sure about, that
But i'm wondering what you love about the nineteenth century.
Speaker 3 (43:42):
MEDICINE i so this is funny because With, facemaker it
was a twentieth century, story AND i vowed to never
return to the twentieth century after writing it because there
were THINGS i hadn't, anticipated Which i'm kind of embarrassed
to say this as a, history BUT i just never
ventured that close to modern. Times one of the problems
was patient. CONFIDENTIALITY i had to prove that these men were,
(44:05):
dead and in cases where their stories had been told
by gillies in relation to their, names that was, fine
it was part of the public. Record but IF i
went into their patient records and found something That gillies hadn't.
PUBLICIZED i couldn't put that to the patient's name and the.
Stories so there were a lot of challenges to. That and,
(44:26):
also as you, say you know we are very close to.
IT i will meet people, who'se you, know grandfather or
great grandfather was treated By, gillies which is incredible to. Think,
actually doctors are fascinating, too because medical history sort of a.
Genealogy And i'll meet plastic surgeons who, SAY i was
trained by somebody who was trained By Harold, gillies and you, think,
oh that can't be, possible but, actually you, know.
Speaker 5 (44:47):
Well it's funny to say it because my, Mentor Roger,
law who Created Spitting, image he was taught by people
who were taught By Henry. Tonks, yeah it was the.
Artist he was the artist who did the sketches of
the soldiers with the injured, faces you, know the medical
for medical. Purposes you, know it wasn't just an artistic.
Exercise it was actually FOR ta, help how we'll get
his reconstruct. Faces so it wasn't that long me a
couple of degrees of, Separation, yeah.
Speaker 3 (45:09):
It wasn't it wasn't that long, Ago and SO i
always go back sort of the you, Know i'm back
into the nineteenth century With Sleuth. Hound it feels like
a warm. Bath it's a, WORLD i, know and as you,
say there's a lot of amazing things that are. Happening,
also you don't have you, know some of the things
aren't in. Copyright you, know you could go into the
patient records without any problems if you go back. Further
(45:31):
the challenges THAT i find are that BECAUSE i like
to write narrative nonfiction for, adults that means it sort
of reads like a, novel like in the in the
style Of Eric, LARSEN i don't have enough records necessarily
to move some of those earlier figures around in a
way that feels, novelistic whereas With, LISTER i have his
diaries and letters and things like, that and so it's much.
(45:53):
Easier but you, know with the children's, book we do
deal a lot with the nineteenth century because there are
just you, know it's with. Anesthesia it's day starts experimenting
with nitrous oxide and laughing gas in this sort of
early nineteenth, century and he does say something he wonders
if this could be useful in. Surgery but it's not
until eighteen forty four until a dentist In america picks
(46:15):
this up morton and tries to use it to extract
the tooth that they, think, oh maybe this could be.
Useful and then you get into ether being, discovered and
the guy who uses ether In america tries to patent
it because that's The american, way and it sort of
backfires on. Him and so there's all these like weird
little failures in the story of. Anesthesia but the biggest
(46:37):
thing that comes out of, anesthesia which we talk about
in Dead, ends is actually there's this amazing, triumph but
surgery becomes much more dangerous immediately after this moment because
doctors are more willing to pick up the knife and
to go deeper into the, body but they still don't
understand germ. Theories so as a, result postoperative infection. Rises
(46:58):
so again you have this this this idea of, success
but also can cause other.
Speaker 5 (47:03):
Problems it's kind of two steps, forward one, back isn't it? Often?
Speaker 3 (47:07):
Yeah AND i think that's even. Today i'm sure you.
Know here's another THING i just want to make clear
is that you, know we're very pro, science pro. Medicine
and one of the challenges with telling the story was
to make sure we weren't scaring kids away from medicine and.
Science and you, know one of the things we tried
to do in the book was to remind them that
we do now have. Regulations we have THE, fda we
(47:29):
have you, know institutes that regulate the. Stuff so it's
a lot. Safer you don't have at regender coming at
you with the, smallpox you, know and hoping that this
is going to. Work so it's it's different in that,
sense and we should celebrate those institutes that keep us
safe and hopefully we'll continue to do, that and that's
a big part of the. Story so it's again it's
(47:50):
about not hiding our history and acknowledging the harm that was,
done BECAUSE i think also if we don't do, that
it's not right to the people who were harmed by
some of these. Experiments but, equally you, know celebrating the
triumphs and then seeing how we become better at what
we do and safer at what we, do and how
this is this is is a better world because of
(48:11):
what has. Happened, yeah, YEAH.
Speaker 4 (48:15):
I feel like you highlight in the book to a
lot of how there has always been this misinformation and
everything that is kind of everywhere as it is, today
and so much of what drives misinformation and the spread
of misinformation today is just this lack of a fundamental
understanding and how science is actually. Done AND i feel
(48:37):
like one of the things that's so great about the
book is how you highlight that this is normal for
things to, change how science is this work in. Process
we have to change our minds when we have conflicting.
Evidence what are some of the ways that you think
today that for, ourselves our, kids our, families our, Friends
how can we like inoculate ourselves against this rise of medical?
Speaker 3 (48:59):
Misinformation that's such a great. Question and ALSO i just
want to say that we don't just have medical. Misinformation
we now also have medical disinformation which is different and
purposely spread to misinform the. Public and so it's a
very scary. Thing having gone through breast cancer, recently there
are you, know some high profile people who are just
(49:21):
plainly saying things that are just not true about how
you should be treating your breast. Cancer and it can
be very dangerous because people read this, stuff they're influenced by.
It we live in the age of TikTok and, influencers
and it can be very dangerous. Misinformation you, know this
this is the issue is to go back to THE covid,
(49:44):
pandemic was that it wasn't misinformation all the time when
if we revised the, advice and SO i think that's
the problem is that people will sometimes look at it
and think that well they were. Wrong well they were,
Wrong but, again this is about the process of learning
about the virus when the virus is brand. New you,
(50:05):
know there was different advice to two years. Later AND
i think it is sort of a disconnect with the scientific,
process the decline of science literacy again that we're seeing
across the. WORLD i don't know what the anecdote is,
though because it's scary the way we consume. Information one
(50:25):
of the things we were talking about in a previous
interview was that we did an event With pladebusters and
all the kids were sitting there reading and they didn't
care what we had to, say which was great to.
See AND i think the thing to take away was
that kids actually are hungry for that kind of thoughtful.
Content they don't need to just be fed this through
thirty second clips online and in adults, too they want
(50:49):
the deep. Dives you, Know i'm still one of the
dinosaurs On. Instagram we're doing you, know big Level instagram
posts and people come to it and they want to
read it and they want to understand. More and SO
i think that there's a value in. Books there's a
value in deep, dives and we need to keep pushing,
that you, know because that's the only way we're going
(51:09):
to get over this sort of age of misinformation and.
Disinformation we have to be more literate and scientifically, literate.
Speaker 5 (51:16):
Certainly, Yeah and you, know books great because it gives
you the space to do, that to make an. Argument really,
YEAH i suppose what we're trying to do is.
Speaker 3 (51:26):
And make it fun for the. Kids you, know you
got the butthole and there you, got you, got you
got the buttle, that you got the fun, illustrations and
it's just it's been a joy to see kids pick
this book up To AND i just hope that we
can find ways to make science and medicine really fun
for kids and uh and and find new ways to
engage with them on on these really interesting.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
TOPICS i think that Dead ends is it's such an incredible.
Book it's it is something that as a, KID.
Speaker 2 (51:53):
I would have.
Speaker 3 (51:54):
Loved AND i know that there are.
Speaker 1 (51:56):
Tons of nerdy kids out there and non nerdy kids
who are just of this. Book AND i just you,
Know lindsay And, adrian it has been such a joy
to chat with. You it's been a long time. COMING
i feel like there's like a parasocial relationship thing going
on Where i'm, LIKE i know, you this is.
Speaker 2 (52:12):
Amazing we're, like we're friends.
Speaker 3 (52:14):
Already SO i was just so happy that we could
finally connect up and chat about. This AND i know
that we'll be talking about Sleuth hound And facemaker and
whatever else you guys want to talk, about.
Speaker 2 (52:26):
Because all the things, yeahs yeah.
Speaker 3 (52:29):
Fun so thank you for amplifying our book in this
extraordinary way as.
Speaker 5 (52:33):
Well thank you.
Speaker 1 (52:54):
A big thank you again To lindsay And adrian for
taking the time to chat with. US i am it's
so glad that we finally got to have you all
on the.
Speaker 5 (53:02):
Pod what a.
Speaker 1 (53:03):
Delight if you enjoyed today's episode and would like to learn,
more check out our website this podcast will Kill you dot.
Com We're i'll post a link to where you can
find Dead ends, flukes flops and failures that sparked medical,
marvels as well as links To lindsay's website And adrian's
website where you can find their other incredible. Work and
don't forget you can check out our website for all
(53:25):
sorts of other cool, things including but not limited, to
Transcripts quarantini And, placybrita, recipes show notes and references for
all of our, episodes links to merch our bookshop Dot
org affiliate, page Our goodreads, list a first hand account,
form and music By. Bloodmobile speaking of, which thank you
To bloodmobile for providing the music for this episode and
(53:48):
all of our. Episodes thank you To Leana squilacchi And
Tom bryfogel for our audio, mixing and thanks to you
listeners for. LISTENING i hope you liked this episode and
our loving being.
Speaker 2 (53:59):
Part of the t vpw K y Book.
Speaker 1 (54:01):
Club and a special thank, you as always to our fantastic.
Patrons we appreciate your support so very. Much, well until next,
time keep washing those hands
Hi, I'm Aaron Welsh and this is this Podcast will
Kill You. Welcome to another episode of the tp w
k Y book Club series, where I interview authors of
popular science and medicine books about their latest exciting work.
This season, we've gotten to showcase some fascinating books and topics,
(01:05):
and we still have more to come over the next months.
If you'd like to see what books we'll be featuring
on upcoming episodes, head over to our website this Podcast
will Kill You dot com. Once you're there, click on
the extras tab, then find the link to our bookshop
dot org affiliate page. On that page, you'll find several
TPWKY booklists, including the fiction and nonfiction books that we've
(01:27):
referenced in our regular season episodes, as well as a
list of all the book club books past and future.
I'm always updating these lists, so check back in regularly
to see what has changed. I've got a sweet pro
tip for you, especially as the holiday season approaches. These
lists are a great resource to find gifts for the
nerdy book lovers in your life, and if you have
(01:50):
any suggestions for books that you'd like to see featured
in one of these episodes or thoughts you'd like to
share about past episodes or anything else you'd like to
send our way. The best way to get in touch
is the contact us form on our website. Okay, two
last things before moving on to the book of the week. First,
please rate, review, and subscribe if you haven't already. It
(02:12):
does help us out. And Secondly, you can now find
full video versions of most of our newest episodes on YouTube.
Make sure you're subscribed to exactly Right Media's YouTube channel
so you never miss a new episode drop. Contrary to
popular belief, failure is an option. In fact, sometimes it's
(02:32):
an unavoidable outcome, especially when it comes to science and medicine.
Your results don't support your initial hypothesis. Your experiment goes
horribly awry, the new treatment you were testing didn't lead
to any improvement. The inevitability of failure doesn't take the
sting away or make your ego any less bruised. We
(02:53):
view these failures as setbacks keeping science from moving forward.
In reality, failure is a fundamental part of progress. When
we reflect on the history of science and medicine, we
tend to highlight the triumphs, the breakthroughs, the inventions that
cured diseases and saved lives. We spend a whole lot
(03:14):
less time on the ideas or gadgets that didn't quite
work out, But those stumbles are just as important to
the advancement of science and medicine than the celebrated success stories,
and it's about time we acknowledged what they've helped us
to achieve, which is not only knowledge like how to
not do something, but also that failure is okay. In
(03:39):
this week's episode, we are thrilled to be joined by
medical historian and award winning author doctor Lindsay Fitzharris and
caricaturist and cartoonist Adrian Teal to discuss their latest book,
dead Ends, Flukes, flops and Failures that sparked medical marvels.
Dead Ends is this power couple's second book geared to
(04:01):
younger audiences middle school age, but honestly, I think that
all ages would love it, and in it they showcase
some of the shocking, strange, and often humorous ways that
medicine didn't quite get it right the first or second
or third time, stories featuring observations of guillotine heads, terrifying
(04:22):
saws to speed up amputations, fad diets, and cow milk
transfusions are accompanied by delightful and vivid illustrations of the
physicians involved in these outlandish experiments. Blending dark humor with
fascinating factoids. Fitz Harris and Teel take readers on a
frolicking journey that spans the centuries of medical mishaps. But
(04:46):
underneath the rivening stories and grotesque illustrations is a powerful
lesson Failure is an essential part of science. It's easy
to get frustrated when science doesn't have all the answers.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Some of the way.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Science is taught as a set of facts, as a
forward march of progress, we don't realize how much we're
still figuring things out, and that the knowledge that we
have today will at some point in the future be replaced.
Dead Ends reminds readers that it's okay to fail. Erin
and I have been dying to have Lindsay Fitzharris on
(05:23):
this podcast for the longest time. Her other books, The
Butchering Art and The Facemaker, geared to adult audiences, are
some of our all time faves, and so Erin will
actually be joining me for this episode, and I am
so thrilled to share this with you all. So, with
only the slightest bit more ado in the form of
an ad break, let's get right to the interview. Lindsey
(06:08):
and Adrian, Welcome to the show. This has been such
a long time coming. We are thrilled to have you here.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
We are so excited as well, and to share some
gory stories of medical history with you guys.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Yeah, we're thrilled. I am a huge fan girl.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
My one of my professors gave us all of the
students in my med school class the Butchering Art like
before we graduated as a gift, and that was my introduction,
and I've just been obsessed ever since.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
So I am really fangirling right now.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
You know it it was at your first introduction to
medical history as a subject.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
I think so honestly.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
I mean we had been already been doing the podcast,
so like I knew, you know, from Aaron, I had
learned a lot of things, but yeah, we don't learn
medical history in med school, and so it was like,
and I think that's why he gifted it to everyone,
because he found it also to be like so important
and like such a huge part of what we never
actually learn.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
And I just was amazed.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
It's interesting because in the UK, where I went, despite
this Chicago accent, I've lived here for twenty three years.
In Britain, though, they do teach medical history to medical
students in the first year, which I think is great
because I think it's really important that doctors be able
to contextualize where they've come from where they're going. And
I always tell audiences when I talk about the Butchering Art,
(07:27):
which is about Joseph Lister and germ theory, what we
know today isn't going to be what we know tomorrow,
and we have to keep an open mind. And that's
very much what dead Ends this children's book is about
as well.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
I loved so much all of the stories of dead Ends,
but I also loved the message, and so I'm very
curious how you got the initial spark of the idea
for this book and then how that evolved eventually into
the ultimate message that this book tells.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Yeah, well, I'm going to pull out see now, people
who follow me and have followed my brand for a
long time, they're so sick of this story. But I'm
going to do it anyway. I know bockwork saw so
I had. I used to have a YouTube series called
under the knife, and the way into the stories was
through objects, and so the first one we ever did
(08:15):
was on the clockwork saw when we created a replica
of it, and it was one of my favorite weird
objects for medical history because it was a massive failure
and it was invented by this guy named W. HB.
Winchester in the nineteenth century at a time when speed
was really important, and so the idea behind it, you
always call it the pizza wheel.
Speaker 5 (08:33):
The pizza pizza, that's right.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
Yeah, So it's circular. For people who are just listening,
it's a circular saw, and in the middle there would
have been a crank and you would crank it, you
would release it and it would continuously spin. And so
he thought this was great. He takes it into the
operating theater and it ends up it's way too unwieldy
and he ends up taking off his assistants finger. So
this is a bit of a disaster, and in fact,
(08:55):
it was so bad that it never made it out
of prototype phase. And so there's only one in distance,
which is at the Hunterian Museum in London. We've recreated
it here and I just I've always loved failure as
a concept, and I think it's something that we don't
talk about enough in science and medicine, right, you know.
And we saw we were talking earlier with a journalist
(09:16):
about the COVID pandemic and how people were really uncomfortable
with the advice changing. But to me that was a comfort.
That meant that our doctors are learning more about this
virus and that they're changing their advice. And that's exactly
what you want to see with the scientific process.
Speaker 5 (09:31):
So yeah, and that's part of the scientific method, is
that you change your theories and you change your approach
your practices as more information comes in. That's how you
want the world to be, you know. Yeah, And so
this book, as much as anything else, it is about
that kind of the evolution of the scientific method and how,
you know, the things you could get away with two
three hundred years ago as a scientist or a doctor,
you certainly aren't going to be getting away with today
(09:52):
because things, you know, evolve and change, and that's how
it should be.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Yeah, And it's not just okay to fail, it's to fail,
especially in medicine and science. And we're hoping that that
will resonate with kids, you know, everybody in the age
of social media is obsessed with perfection, you know, presenting
a perfect version of ourselves, a perfect version of our
own histories. And you know, if you think you've made
(10:17):
a mistake, look at you know, some of these geniuses
from the past, a lot of them have wrapped up
some pretty big mistakes.
Speaker 5 (10:23):
So somebody like Thomas Edison, who's by no means perfect,
but he did say, you know, I haven't failed, I've
just found ten thousand ways that don't work. You know. Yeah,
it's part of the process of getting to where you
need to be, rather than to be ashamed of that.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
So we always loved failure. But also Adrian who's my husband,
he has a very particular set of skills as a characterist.
I have a very particular set of skills, and we
were like, how can we combine this into something that
could be useful to people? Because we really.
Speaker 5 (10:50):
That's how the first book that played was born really
was yeah, because we just wanted to work together on something.
And Linda's great with the history and she's great with
getting the stories you know structured. Oh what I do
is because I'm a manchild, I can make it then
friendly kids, so I can then look at it, and
because Lindsay will be writing something so I don't know
how to make this, you know, readable, I said, well,
(11:11):
don't worry about that. Just write it like you'd write
it for an adult, and then we can work that
out later on. You know.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
Yeah, unsurprisingly, it was very difficult to take these complex
concepts and then whittle it down and so that that
was a real challenge. But you brought the humor and
the great illustrations and you know, helps them dig up
a lot of these stories.
Speaker 5 (11:28):
We'll let you get a word in a minute. But
what I was going to say, I think we're going
to say, was is that with a kid's book, you've
only got twenty twenty five thousand words to play with.
So you'd think, oh, that's easy, you know, it's not
a very long book, but actually that means you have
to choose every word really carefully, and so if you're
trying to explain complicated scientific processes, that can be quite tricky.
(11:50):
So you're trying to walk a fine line, aren't you really?
Speaker 3 (11:53):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (11:53):
Definitely, I love though that you guys not only managed
to squeeze so much information in but also like use
words like butthole, multiple times, but that was too.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Out well the editor.
Speaker 5 (12:06):
The editor was quite keen on the idea of taking
that out, and I said, no, there's a poetry to
the word butthole that you just can.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
It really is absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
Also, I have to add that I dedicated, we dediticated,
caated this book to our mentors, and mine is doctor
Margaret Pelling, who's a very serious historian at Oxford who
is my supervisor. And I don't know yet how she's
going to view this, but you know, she was like, oh,
it's great to see medical history being brought to younger
and younger people. Over here in Britain, we have something
(12:37):
called Horrible Histories, which was huge in your generation growing up,
and so we kind of hope that that's that's filling
a slot over in the US with with this kind
of books.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
So yeah, let's take a quick break and when we
get back, there's still so much to discuss. Welcome back everyone.
We've been chatting with doctor Lindsey Fitzs and Adrian Teal
about their book dead Ends, Flukes, Flops and Failures that
sparked Medical Marvels. Let's get back into things.
Speaker 4 (13:09):
In addition to the story that you had already mentioned
about that, you know, first failure of a saw. There
are so many other incredible stories jam packed in this book.
Another favorite, which I think is also in The Butchering Art,
is Listed's three hundred percent case fatality surgery.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
It's one of my favorites.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
It's so good. I mean, it's so depressing, but so good.
So I'm wondering, like where exactly. Obviously you are a
medical historian, but like, where do you come across these stories?
Do you have just like a running list that you're like,
how many can we jam pack in here?
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Or how do you keep track of them?
Speaker 5 (13:42):
All?
Speaker 3 (13:43):
Yeah? I mean they're everywhere in medical history, I have
to say. And again, you know, I mean even when
I was writing The Facemaker, which is about Harold Gillies
who was rebuilding soldiers spaces in the First World War,
I think I said something like, you know, failure was
his constant companion and again really important for Gillies and
what he was able to achieve. And some of the
(14:03):
stories we tell in this book are dark, and you know,
I feel that we should acknowledge the failures of the
past and acknowledge the harm that was also done because
to hide it feels conspiratorial, and we are living in
an age where there is a decline in science literacy.
There's a decline in literacy period across the board, and
(14:25):
so I think it's important to tell the whole picture.
But the balances making sure that we're always you know,
cheering on science and medicine, because what we've been able
to accomplish over these centuries is incredible. You know, Adrian
and I recently both went through cancer. I went through
breast cancer and he went through prostate cancer, and we
caught ours very early. I always say we're living examples
(14:45):
of why early diagnoses is life saving. And when people
get diagnosed that I know, I always say today is
the best day to be diagnosed with cancer, and tomorrow
is going to be even better because the advances we
are making are tremendous. You know, my mother had a
double mastec to me in twenty twelve, and between that
and twenty twenty two when I was diagnosed, even in
(15:06):
that short span, the differences in our treatment were palpable.
So medical history is littered with failure, and there is
a comical value. You know, Robert Liston, he's six', two
he's this really tall. Guy he's known as the fastest
knife in The West. End he can hold you down
with his left arm and take off your leg in thirty,
seconds which is exactly what you would want in a
(15:28):
pre anesthetic. Era but he does have these sort of comical.
FAILURES i, mean i'll say comical to us, today, yeah.
Speaker 5 (15:35):
Because we all, know you, know comedy equals tragedy plus. Time, yeah,
right you can look at it with some, distance maybe
not so.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Comical you, know the assistant whose finger was accidentally cut
off and he dies of, infection and the patient dies of,
infection and then there's a spectator who he slashes the
coat and he dies of. Fright and it's jokingly referred
to as the only operation with the three hundred percent mortality.
Rate and it is kind of. Funny but you, know
when you look at somebody Like liston who had these
(16:06):
very dramatic, failures IF i was transported to a pre anesthetic,
ERA i would still Want Robert liston to do the
amputation because he still was the best of the. Best
AND i also remind people that as sort of funny
as these stories, are because they're so removed from us,
today it would have been really frustrating as a doctor
(16:26):
to go into that operating theater and to keep losing
patient after. Patient you are in the business of saving
lives and you cannot figure out what is killing your.
Patients and Until Joseph lister comes along with germ, theory
it was really, DEMORALIZING i can. Imagine so you, know
there's always that element, too you, know imagine being a
doctor at this, time and WHEN i talked to plastic
(16:49):
surgeons About Harold, gillies you, KNOW i can tell that
they're looking at the photos and, thinking, HMMM i would
have done that. Differently and THEN i, say, well let
me point out what you couldn't have. Done over one
hundred years. Ago there was no, antibiotics there was no you, know, YadA, YadA,
YadA and so it's it's important to remember always that
the people were talking about were really trying to, help
(17:10):
but they did sometimes inadvertently cause.
Speaker 5 (17:13):
Harm and that's another point we make is, that you,
know even when we're talking about remedies that just seemed
completely insane to us now that were happening two three
hundred years, ago they were doing the best they could
with the science they had available at the, time right
And that's all you can ask of the people that
are trying to help, you isn't.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
It? REALLY i always ask people what do you think
you know in a hundred, Years and for, ME i
always think it's going to be. CHEMOTHERAPY i think we're
going to find better things to replace. It chemotherapy is
very harsh on the, patient as we, know so eventually
we might find something that can replace. It right, now
it's it's the most, effective you, know thing we have
in our arsenal against many. Cancers but it's one of
(17:51):
those Treatments i'd love to see replaced in the future
with something just as, effective if not more.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Effective right it'll be featured in the city equal to Dead.
Ends but from, that can you believe that they did?
Speaker 2 (18:04):
This they used to just inject us with all of these.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Things, YEAH i want TO i want to talk about
the art and Dead ends, because like we talked, about you,
know comedy equals tragedy plus, time and comedy also equals
this incredible art that just is the chef's kiss perfection
to all of these incredible. Stories AND i want to
know more about the process of integrating these illustrations into the,
(18:29):
stories like what comes first how do those stories? Change
what how do you decide which snapshot to represent you,
know this particular.
Speaker 5 (18:37):
Story, well through most of my, career If i've been doing,
illustration it's usually been illustrating somebody else's. Work so that
what we had a sort of unfair advantage here because
IF i had a great idea for a, cartoon we
could tweak the text to make sure that it helped
the cartoon, along you, Know so that's that's all was was.
Good the other thing is THAT i think is important
(18:59):
about this book And Plague, busters is that we're dealing
with a lot of historical characters that kids are the
most adults won't have heard, of so the names won't
really mean anything to. Them but if you can produce
a caricature of them and give them some, personality it
brings them alive in a way that you, know a
photo from the nineteenth century of somebody, standing you, know
sitting very stiffly in a in a posed, portrait that
(19:20):
that won't.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
Convey we Have poe right back there that we. Did you,
know he's he's a great, caricaturist and you were fascinated
with faces from the very, start and he as a little.
Boy over here In, britain there was a big show
Called Spitting image and they use these caricatured puppets and
it was political. Satire and your, father who was a,
(19:41):
pharmacist didn't know what to do with, you and so
he called the creators a Spitting. Image and So adrian
is a little boy maybe ten years, old would go
to the workshop and he would learn how to sculpt
these these puppets and so, yeah and so they brought
the show back recently and you can see it now
on TikTok and, YouTube and it seems like a time
to bring political satire, back let's put it that. Way
(20:04):
and you've done eighty percent of the puppets and it's
been really good. Fun but it's always about first, impressions isn't.
Speaker 5 (20:10):
It it's about, personality and it's about first, impressions and
it's about making someone look more like themselves than they do.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
Themselves, yeah you're not always you're not really making fun of.
Speaker 5 (20:19):
That, WELL i mean there is an element of, that
of course there, Is but it's also about it's about
celebrating what makes that person that, person, Right, yeah and
you know that's why it's great to do. It with historical,
characters because then they come.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
Along he has this really great way of zoning in
on the thing that makes your face.
Speaker 5 (20:35):
Unique but the other thing about the inputations as, well
is that sometimes it's about not doing an. Illustration if
we've written a good enough description of, something if we've
painted a vivid enough word picture and it's you, know
as is often the, case and is quite, gruesome you
don't really need to have an illustration there to gild the,
lily if you see WHAT i. Mean, so, yeah sometimes
(20:57):
just to leave it, alone you. Know so you have
to be, SELECTIVE i have to say to the.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Publisher you, know they get very. Nervous adults get more.
NERVOUS i think that kids can handle a lot more
gruesome stuff than they give the kids credit. For so
there's always this push and pull, about you, know how
much is too much and what to put. In and
the original cover for this book we tell the story
of the guillotined heads during The French revolution and the
(21:21):
doctors who sort of hilariously tried to shout at them
and see if there was any kind of level of consciousness.
Left and so your, idea tell them what the?
Speaker 5 (21:30):
Cover my, original my original covers have the guillotine and
then have a seven head at the bottom of the guillotine.
Cartoon the doctor with a stethoscope listening to the, head
say there any signs of? Life and they, said, OH
i can't do, that it's far too. Gruesome but now
what we've, got which seems to be fine, apparently is
somebody that a corpse being. Electrocuted so it's sometimes hard to. See,
(21:52):
yeah line is.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
Yeah, YEAH i mean even With. Playbusters actually THE i
really loved our original concept for the, cover and again
they they were, like, no and it was it was
basically was a plague doctor with the beaked mask and
he had a crystal ball in front of him and
they were floating, us and it was kind of, like
what's the next big thing going to? Be WHICH i
(22:14):
thought was a really good nod to you, know the
the there will be more. Pandemics you. Know my grandma
would call me DURING covid and she'd, say have you
ever heard of anything like? This AND i was, like, Yes,
Grandma i'm out a historian and back to the the
last one, happened you, Know and so we would we
would we were constantly having this. Conversation BUT i liked,
(22:35):
it but they, said.
Speaker 5 (22:35):
Well crystal balls aren't real as.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
Well they, said, yeah so we were.
Speaker 5 (22:42):
Come up with. It they, did like you had dancing
plague rats in the background.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Again because dancing play rats are.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Real, yeah total makes. Sense challenge.
Speaker 4 (22:56):
The very first, CHAPTER i think the first image, is you,
know a head on a spike with just blood, everywhere
and we as we were reading it right before bedtime
the other. NIGHT i turned to that page and my
son was, like AND i was, like is this gonna
be too?
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Scary and he's, like, no keep.
Speaker 5 (23:13):
Going this is WHAT i was, says kids are. Horrible
but the way you, know.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
YEAH i grew up on a diet Of Stephen, king,
unsurprisingly SO i, was you, KNOW i was. DEFINITELY i,
think you know, again it is about kind of balancing that.
Speaker 5 (23:31):
Depends it depends on it.
Speaker 3 (23:33):
Does, yeah but a, good more big curiosity is a
healthy thing for a. Child and you, KNOW i CAN
i can, remember you, know my my grandmother partly raised
me and we would go to the cemeteries all the,
time and, people a lot of people think that's very,
creepy but for, me it's WHEN i first became interested
(23:54):
in the past and the people who lived in the
past and how did they live and how did they
die and what was their? Experience is SO i think
cemeteries are these, wonderful love filled places because people spend
money and thought and, time you, know memorializing somebody's. Life
but you, know, again it's it's what you're exposed. TO
i suppose at a younger age AND.
Speaker 5 (24:15):
I grew up watching and Loving Monty python and you
Know Terry gilliams animations On Monty. Python's, yeah if you
grow up, weird are you going to you, know stay,
weird don't?
Speaker 3 (24:24):
You?
Speaker 5 (24:24):
Ye this is.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
IT i was honored by my high school last, year
which was fairly, hilarious and we went. Back you had
the Most american experience of your, life going back to
This american high. School AND i got up and, SAID
i Guess i'm the proof that the weird kids can
thrive after. School and you, KNOW i, Mean i'm sure
you guys. Too you had, that you, know that weirdness
(24:46):
in you and you know your. Doctors but you do
this great podcast and you have this real passion for
science communication and getting those crazy stories out there and
getting people passionate about you, know this world, medicine and
SO i JUST i think the weird kids we do
we survive and.
Speaker 4 (25:04):
Thrive, YEAH i think the weird kids also we tend
to find each. Other, Yes and you guys mentioned, that
especially as you were starting your first book Together plaguebusters
and this, book that you mostly just like wanted an
excuse to work. Together So i'm, curious, like what is
the what is it like for you guys to work?
Speaker 5 (25:24):
Together surprisingly, harmonious isn't. It?
Speaker 3 (25:27):
YEAH i think. SO i mean it's, again you have
a skill set that's, different.
Speaker 5 (25:32):
But it seems to kind of slot, together doesn't.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
It. Yeah he also knows that there's this PROCESS i
go through where everything's. BAD i think the book is.
Terrible it's. Horrible we should just tell the publisher we're
not going to do, it because there's no Way i'm
going to put this out. There LIKE i even with
my adult, nonfiction like there's always, like.
Speaker 5 (25:49):
Yeah we have a couple of weeks of. That, yeah
we pushed through that and maybe get to the other.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
Side you stay calm and you're, like oh, maybe, yeah
maybe we can do. That and it's just it's you,
Know I'm i'm a real, perfectionist which actually being a
perfectionist is not a good thing to some, extent because
you know that famous quote that art is never, completed just. Abandoned,
yeah you, know it's you have to let go at
(26:15):
some point and put it out into the. World and you,
know when we put Out, plaguebusters it was really funny
because that cover to me really signaled this was a kid's.
Book but there were people who left reviews On amazon
that said this isn't up to the snuff of Fitz
harris's other. Books AND i was, like this is a kid's,
well how are people? Misunderstanding AND i.
Speaker 5 (26:35):
Read it in like two hours and it was, really,
yeah it's a kid's.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
BOOK i don't know what else to. Say it was really.
Funny LIKE i, said with this, ONE i think they've
done a better job on The amazon page of saying
this is for readers aged eight to. Twelve but, people,
yeah there was a lot of. Harumphing you, know you
can imagine the kind Of i'm sure you get, that
you know online they're the humph ump horrumphers right of
(27:00):
a certain, age and Fit's harris is writing for the TikTok.
Generation i'm, Like i'm writing for CHILDREN i don't know
what else to, Say like the dancing fratch should have
been the. CLUE i don't, know.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
But the well actually.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
Is.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Yeah oh, yeah it's.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
Frustrating yeah, yeah OH i love the well actually, yeah, WELL.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
I absolutely love you, know going back a little bit
to the we're all weird kids who somehow ended up
making a life of being weird and really thriving in that.
LIFE i think it's so incredible when people follow their
curiosity their interests and turn it into a career path
where they really end up getting to create something meaningful
and meaningful and true to, them like the way that
(27:51):
both of you have. Done AND i am wondering what
advice you would give your younger selves or someone who
maybe has a lot of for a particular subject but
doesn't quite know what to do with.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
That don't do. It, no you, know we always joke
about the struggles of being, freelancers but in a weird,
way this isn't WHAT i. Do it's WHO i. Am
and even WHEN i was an academic and doing my
PhD At, oxford they couldn't really beat that creativity out of.
Me and recently they asked me to come speak At
(28:26):
oxford AND i, thought, oh, dear you, know this is
gonna be. Interesting AND i got up AND i gave a,
speech AND i started by saying that WHEN i was
a little, GIRL i wrote a letter To Stephen king
AND i told HIM i wanted to be a writer
just like. Him AND i turns OUT i didn't become a,
novelist BUT i do go around horrifying people with medical.
History and there was a lot of nervous laughs amongst
(28:46):
The Oxford dons and one of my very the first
PROFESSOR i ever had in history of, Science Robert, fox
who's just an intellectual. Giant he was there and afterwards
he came up to, me and a student came up and, said,
oh you're so good at, speaking and he, said, oh,
yes did you learn that At? Oxford and Then adrian, said, NO.
Speaker 5 (29:10):
I think she hearned us skills on.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
YouTube and this old, PROFESSOR i, mean he was, like,
you you, know don't really know what to say to,
that but you, KNOW i now call myself a storyteller
first and, foremost AND i am a medical. HISTORIAN i
have a PhD and all of, that but it's really
the stories and connecting with audiences who have maybe never
(29:32):
thought about medical history as a, subject never even realized
it was a. Subject and that's where my passion. Is
and you, KNOW i think when you're genuinely. Passionate you,
know we live in an age of. Brands you, know
kids are obsessed with brands and how to build their own,
brand and to some, EXTENT i have built a brand as,
(29:52):
such but it never started out that. Way it was
just a blog THAT i started Called The Surgeon's. Apprentice
it was supposed to really just be little stories that
they wouldn't let me tell on academia that interested, me
and also to explain to people in my life what
medical historians. Do and it turns out that a lot
of people really gravitated towards that. Blog and SO i
think that my advice to anybody who's looking to do
(30:16):
that is just always be genuinely. Passionate if you are
trying to sell something just because you have an end
goal in, mind whether it's fame or a book deal
or a podcast or A tv, show money or, money
it's never going to. Work and you have to be
genuinely interested because audiences they can smell a. Fraud and you,
(30:37):
know this is why your podcast has done so. Well
you guys are genuinely passionate about this, this you, know
and that's what people gravitate. Toward and you can't teach
somebody how to do. That you just have.
Speaker 5 (30:48):
To it's about being true to yourself as. WELL i,
mean how often do you hear you, know comedians or
filmmakers or. Whatever i've been going back we talking about
multipith and briefly earlier, on you, know you ask any of,
them they, said when we did that, show we were
doing what we thought was. Funny and all you can
do is pursue that passion and hope that somebody else
engages with. It and that's really all of. IT i,
mean that's not to say that for every success, story
(31:09):
there aren't you, know five hundred people that didn't make.
It but you have to be true to. Yourself and
As lindsay, said you know WHAT i. Do you, Know lindsay,
says it's part of who she. Is WHAT i do
is absolutely part of WHO i, am AND i can't
imagine doing anything. Else there's no. Retiring it's not even
it sounds, pretentious you, know but it's not even LIKE
i have a, choice, Right it's what it's WHO i,
(31:30):
am and it's WHAT i.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
DO i, mean your your parents said that they put
a pencil in your hand at the age of, two and.
Speaker 5 (31:35):
It was like eighteen, months, yeah eighty.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
MONTHS a light bulb went, on and SO i, think
you know, again it's obviously there are real. Considerations you
do have to make, money you have to make a,
living and those things have to be. Weighed but it
really for, me you, know WHEN i write my adult,
NONFICTION i always, say Because i've just finished my next
my third, book which is going to be called Smooth,
hound which is a guy about a guy Named Joseph
bell who was the Real Sherlock, holmes and it's About
(31:59):
victorian five. Forensicks it's great. Fun but So i'm now
naturally thinking about what's the fourth, Book and SO i
often live with the ghosts for a few. Moms there's
a couple of people rattling around in my. Head who's
going to tell the most compelling? Story and that's what
it comes down, to you. Can't you. Know sometimes people
pick book subjects because they think it will make a great,
(32:21):
movie or they think, it's you, know going to fit
into the political. Times but if you artificially do that
it's never gonna. Work it has to. Be even With.
Facemaker when that came, out The Ukrainian war conflict started
and people were naturally asking about the return of trench,
warfare and we're seeing plastic surgeons going over there and
volunteering to help rebuild people's, faces much Like Harold gillies
(32:43):
did in The First World. War but that wasn't. Planned
and ultimately people have to make those those draw those conclusions. Themselves,
like my job is to tell really good, story and
whatever you do with that story is your. Business whether
you think The facemaker is a great anti war book
or what you think it's a great patriotic book that
makes you proud of the people who. Fought those are,
(33:04):
different you, know agendas that the reader is going to
bring to. It my, JOB i, think is to just
tell the most compelling STORY i.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Can let's take a quick break, here we'll be back
before you know. It welcome, back. Everyone we're here chatting
with the wonderful Doctor Lindsay fitzharris And Adrian teal about
their book Dead. Ends let's get into some more questions
back to the.
Speaker 4 (33:30):
Book obviously that we're here to talk about. Today Dead
ends and this kind of keeps coming. Up it even
came up in what you were just talking. About you've
we've touched a lot on this idea and this concept
that the book is mainly, about which is, this you, know,
failure is this.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Stop point on the way to.
Speaker 4 (33:46):
Success but the other big THEME i feel like that
emerges from this, book and you touched on it a
little bit already, too is how the scientific process is
this you, know iterative. Process and sometimes it goes quite,
fast as we saw DURING covid when things were changing so, rapidly.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
But for a lot of history it went very.
Speaker 4 (34:05):
Slowly and you GAVE i really loved the example Of
galen that you gave in the, book who was you,
know this wise figure had many failures and things that weren't,
right but so many that were that he.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
Was like really rarely ever.
Speaker 4 (34:20):
Questioned AND i know you, mentioned you, know chemotherapy is
one of the things that you hope is going to
change in the. Future but what do you, think like more,
broadly learning about the history of medicine can kind of
teach us about the way that we think of medicine
and medical advancements.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
TODAY i think that's such a great, question and you,
know we actually just reread this book, yesterday which sounds,
odd but you, know we're a. Couple i'm at least
one book ahead because a book takes a long time in,
production and so you have to kind of remind yourself
of what the book. Was and with this book on
like my other adult, books there's a lot of. Stories
it's not just one big narrative. Story SO i had
(34:58):
to kind of remind. Myself but the story we were
discussing between ourselves just this afternoon was the story Of Phineas,
gage which a lot Of americans. Know he was working
on the railroad tamping iron and this iron rod shot
through his, skull right through his, brain and he somehow,
survives and his doctor starts to know changes in his.
Behavior and what's interesting is that happens in the early nineteenth,
(35:21):
century and then in eighteen eighty four you have this
guy Named Daniel ferrier who comes Across gauge's story and
starts to wonder if certain parts of the brain control certain,
functions and he creates these brain, maps and the brain
map is used to correctly identify a brain, tumor and
a patient Named henderson in eighteen eighty, Four so that's
a long, burn and it really hinged On ferrier finding
(35:45):
this kind of strange story that at the time wasn't
very well known or very well. Publicized and the only
reason we really know About Phineas gauge is because Of
ferrier's brain. Maps SO i think it's important that kids,
realized as you, say that the process can be very
slow and not always a straight. Line sometimes there can
(36:06):
be all kinds of things that happen in the middle
that are, wrong and then we get back on. Track
and a lot of times it also has to do
with people being resistant to new ideas as, Well.
Speaker 5 (36:17):
Yeah being entrenched in a position just because that's what
people have always, done you. Know, yeah, again you, know
he had a terrible. Influence he was a very clever,
guy did some great stuff with you, Know cataract operations And,
searchlight but he got as much wrong as he got,
right and you, know his influence was to some extent
quite detrimental for a lot of, centuries wasn't.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
It and, actually, interestingly With galon and The Four, humors
a lot of the reasons why people were Blood light
in the past was because of. This there was this
idea that they were producing too much. Blood and, this
even After, harvey you, know proves the role of the
heart and circulation long long after. That there is a
photo THAT i sometimes post on social media from the
(36:58):
early twentieth century of someone being bled and what was
happening was older patients just felt like that's what you
went to the doctor, for and so they were still requesting,
this and sometimes doctors were doing it even though they
knew it wasn't. Useful and this is WHAT i think
today in the kin thing would be. ANTIBIOTICS a lot
(37:19):
of people go in instantly ask for. Antibiotics that's not always,
appropriate and now we're having antibiotic. Resistance so it's not
just on the medical. Community it's also what we ourselves
get used. To In, america were used to seeing a
doctor in a white. Coat over, HERE i never see
doctors in white. Coats And i've been treated at the
hospitals In london and they, say oh, no, no, no,
(37:41):
no not the white. Coats those, sleeves you, know that
could be very. Dirty and so there's a whole different
culture and so sometimes it takes generations to change those.
Attitudes AND i always kind of revert back To lister
because he was my first love in the butchering. Art
but Like, lister really the way he changes minds with
germ theory is he goes to the younger generation and
(38:01):
they become The. Listerians they become no one as The.
Listerians they go out and they spread the gospel Of.
Lister it's very. Showmanship there's a processional aspect to what
he's doing with the carbolic acid and sanitizing the surgical,
room and that's how they ultimately change people's. Minds but
it takes decades for this to. Happen so it's really
(38:22):
important that in the day and age where we want instant,
results and also where results in the science and medical
community often have to be justified by how much money it,
makes we need to remember that research for the sake
of research is really important and that some of the
biggest discoveries we've ever made were not goal oriented in.
Speaker 5 (38:44):
MIND i think another problem that doctors had in the
past was you could come up with a paradigm, shift
but the problem was getting the word, out wasn't. IT i,
mean right now you've got you, know journal, articals, websites social.
Media you can get the message out but in those
days it was more. DIFFICULT i Mean James lynd who
came up with a cure for. Scurvy you, know he
worked out lemon. Gee he didn't know why lemon juice,
(39:04):
worked but he realized it did. Work you, know that's.
Fine but he was just like a small time doctor
that he wrote a book about it and a few
people read. It but that didn't mean that scurvy is automatically,
cured you, know across the. World so it takes time
and hard work and dedication to to keep pummeling away
at these problems and changing minds and getting the will
the paradigm to actually, shift you.
Speaker 3 (39:26):
Know AND i was really looking forward to you finding
a way to bring scurvy into the conversation BECAUSE i
know The errands love scurvy as.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Well, huge huge fans of.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
Scurvy he loves, scurvy and he had convinced me to
put it In playbusters BECAUSE i was, like, Scirvy, like
who cares about scar fantastic, subject.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
Really it really.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
Is it's a really important part Of. PLAYBUSTERS i.
Speaker 3 (39:47):
Agree, Yeah well he convinced me BECAUSE i was, like oh,
yeah a lot of people really did die of. This
it was such a Weird it's such a weird one,
too because like your old wounds open off. Stuff.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Yeah i've been reading about a nautical medical history for
we're doing an episode on necrotizing fasci, itis and there
was a really interesting, yes, right there was a really
interesting book WRITTEN i think in like eighteen eight or
something like, that and they talk about like one of
(40:20):
the authors is in the discussion of these ulcers that
are just like you, know spread rapidly and end up
killing the. Sailor he's, like you, know And lynn was
talking about scurvy and how much of a problem he
saw back in the, day And i'm amazed that he
could find that many sailors with. SCURVY i see, no
like not no sailors these days with. Scurvy And i'm
(40:43):
just like to see that from like that, perspective like
he's already looking back like two hundred years, ago and
like what was the concept? Then how did they see
the pattern of you, know different transitions or these paradigm.
Shifts AND i feel like, SCURVY i, mean, YEAH.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
I know that story BECAUSE i talk about it in
The butchering art because doesn't it it the ulcerating it's
it's on a guy's. Penis IF i.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
Were ever and the number of penis is falling, OFF
i have read several by this, point not Like i've
just stumbled upon. THEM i have not sought them, out
and yet they find.
Speaker 5 (41:17):
Me Fa CAN i just say That lindsay is surprisingly.
Screaming so if you're watching a film and there's a gory, bitch,
yeah For god's, sake you might about what those penis
is falling.
Speaker 3 (41:28):
Off. Well it's funny because with the butchering ART i,
HAD i went all over the world with, it AND
i had three or four men. Faint it was always,
men by the, way who fainted WHILE i gave that,
Talk AND i think it was it. Wasn't it was the.
Suggestion you. KNOW i think when people put themselves on the,
table or they put themselves in that, position it can
(41:51):
get a little bit. Dicey it's.
Speaker 5 (41:52):
Not it's ALSO i think if you describe, IT i
think the movie that you have going on in your
head is worse than anything you can actually see In
forens Of. Me, right it's Like jaw with the. Shop.
Right he couldn't show the, shop, yeah but he made
the shop more scary by not showing the.
Speaker 3 (42:04):
Shop, yeah so with movies, today, yeah it's always a little.
Bit you, know there's there's talk about Adapting Face, maker
and you, KNOW i, said, well here the. Challenges you
have to show the, faces you have to show the
disfigured soldiers because we have to look at, that and you,
know but it's it's, hard AND i think when you're empathetic,
too it can be when you see it on, film
(42:25):
it can be very difficult to sort of, watch but
writing it doesn't.
Speaker 5 (42:29):
Feel quite it's.
Speaker 3 (42:30):
Bad BUT i do remember the penis falling, off AND
i REMEMBER i remember it BECAUSE i remember the surgeon
then saying like it was a big, description and then
it said he, died like at the, end like a.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
Corse he, died he, Died and then like the next
line is this is not an uncommon, story And i'm, like.
Speaker 2 (42:49):
What.
Speaker 3 (42:51):
It's a horrible, horrible like, horrible you, know you imagine
then in these nineteenth century operating, theaters it was just.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
Horrific i'm Also i'm very curious about the period of
time that you are most interested. In you, know we
talked about science being, stubborn and part of that is by,
design of, course, like we, can't you, know completely change
the field or rewrite the textbook based on one. Paper
we have to build the body of evidence for. That
BUT i feel like the nineteenth century is just ripe
(43:20):
with these transformative moments where we have germ, theory we
have sort of vaccines are starting to take, off we're
finally having an UNDERSTAND i mean. Evolution all of these
things are mixing together at, once and we might be
a little bit too close to the twentieth century to
really see the same. Patterns i'm not sure about, that
But i'm wondering what you love about the nineteenth century.
Speaker 3 (43:42):
MEDICINE i so this is funny because With, facemaker it
was a twentieth century, story AND i vowed to never
return to the twentieth century after writing it because there
were THINGS i hadn't, anticipated Which i'm kind of embarrassed
to say this as a, history BUT i just never
ventured that close to modern. Times one of the problems
was patient. CONFIDENTIALITY i had to prove that these men were,
(44:05):
dead and in cases where their stories had been told
by gillies in relation to their, names that was, fine
it was part of the public. Record but IF i
went into their patient records and found something That gillies hadn't.
PUBLICIZED i couldn't put that to the patient's name and the.
Stories so there were a lot of challenges to. That and,
(44:26):
also as you, say you know we are very close to.
IT i will meet people, who'se you, know grandfather or
great grandfather was treated By, gillies which is incredible to. Think,
actually doctors are fascinating, too because medical history sort of a.
Genealogy And i'll meet plastic surgeons who, SAY i was
trained by somebody who was trained By Harold, gillies and you, think,
oh that can't be, possible but, actually you, know.
Speaker 5 (44:47):
Well it's funny to say it because my, Mentor Roger,
law who Created Spitting, image he was taught by people
who were taught By Henry. Tonks, yeah it was the.
Artist he was the artist who did the sketches of
the soldiers with the injured, faces you, know the medical
for medical. Purposes you, know it wasn't just an artistic.
Exercise it was actually FOR ta, help how we'll get
his reconstruct. Faces so it wasn't that long me a
couple of degrees of, Separation, yeah.
Speaker 3 (45:09):
It wasn't it wasn't that long, Ago and SO i
always go back sort of the you, Know i'm back
into the nineteenth century With Sleuth. Hound it feels like
a warm. Bath it's a, WORLD i, know and as you,
say there's a lot of amazing things that are. Happening,
also you don't have you, know some of the things
aren't in. Copyright you, know you could go into the
patient records without any problems if you go back. Further
(45:31):
the challenges THAT i find are that BECAUSE i like
to write narrative nonfiction for, adults that means it sort
of reads like a, novel like in the in the
style Of Eric, LARSEN i don't have enough records necessarily
to move some of those earlier figures around in a
way that feels, novelistic whereas With, LISTER i have his
diaries and letters and things like, that and so it's much.
(45:53):
Easier but you, know with the children's, book we do
deal a lot with the nineteenth century because there are
just you, know it's with. Anesthesia it's day starts experimenting
with nitrous oxide and laughing gas in this sort of
early nineteenth, century and he does say something he wonders
if this could be useful in. Surgery but it's not
until eighteen forty four until a dentist In america picks
(46:15):
this up morton and tries to use it to extract
the tooth that they, think, oh maybe this could be.
Useful and then you get into ether being, discovered and
the guy who uses ether In america tries to patent
it because that's The american, way and it sort of
backfires on. Him and so there's all these like weird
little failures in the story of. Anesthesia but the biggest
(46:37):
thing that comes out of, anesthesia which we talk about
in Dead, ends is actually there's this amazing, triumph but
surgery becomes much more dangerous immediately after this moment because
doctors are more willing to pick up the knife and
to go deeper into the, body but they still don't
understand germ. Theories so as a, result postoperative infection. Rises
(46:58):
so again you have this this this idea of, success
but also can cause other.
Speaker 5 (47:03):
Problems it's kind of two steps, forward one, back isn't it? Often?
Speaker 3 (47:07):
Yeah AND i think that's even. Today i'm sure you.
Know here's another THING i just want to make clear
is that you, know we're very pro, science pro. Medicine
and one of the challenges with telling the story was
to make sure we weren't scaring kids away from medicine and.
Science and you, know one of the things we tried
to do in the book was to remind them that
we do now have. Regulations we have THE, fda we
(47:29):
have you, know institutes that regulate the. Stuff so it's
a lot. Safer you don't have at regender coming at
you with the, smallpox you, know and hoping that this
is going to. Work so it's it's different in that,
sense and we should celebrate those institutes that keep us
safe and hopefully we'll continue to do, that and that's
a big part of the. Story so it's again it's
(47:50):
about not hiding our history and acknowledging the harm that was,
done BECAUSE i think also if we don't do, that
it's not right to the people who were harmed by
some of these. Experiments but, equally you, know celebrating the
triumphs and then seeing how we become better at what
we do and safer at what we, do and how
this is this is is a better world because of
(48:11):
what has. Happened, yeah, YEAH.
Speaker 4 (48:15):
I feel like you highlight in the book to a
lot of how there has always been this misinformation and
everything that is kind of everywhere as it is, today
and so much of what drives misinformation and the spread
of misinformation today is just this lack of a fundamental
understanding and how science is actually. Done AND i feel
(48:37):
like one of the things that's so great about the
book is how you highlight that this is normal for
things to, change how science is this work in. Process
we have to change our minds when we have conflicting.
Evidence what are some of the ways that you think
today that for, ourselves our, kids our, families our, Friends
how can we like inoculate ourselves against this rise of medical?
Speaker 3 (48:59):
Misinformation that's such a great. Question and ALSO i just
want to say that we don't just have medical. Misinformation
we now also have medical disinformation which is different and
purposely spread to misinform the. Public and so it's a
very scary. Thing having gone through breast cancer, recently there
are you, know some high profile people who are just
(49:21):
plainly saying things that are just not true about how
you should be treating your breast. Cancer and it can
be very dangerous because people read this, stuff they're influenced by.
It we live in the age of TikTok and, influencers
and it can be very dangerous. Misinformation you, know this
this is the issue is to go back to THE covid,
(49:44):
pandemic was that it wasn't misinformation all the time when
if we revised the, advice and SO i think that's
the problem is that people will sometimes look at it
and think that well they were. Wrong well they were,
Wrong but, again this is about the process of learning
about the virus when the virus is brand. New you,
(50:05):
know there was different advice to two years. Later AND
i think it is sort of a disconnect with the scientific,
process the decline of science literacy again that we're seeing
across the. WORLD i don't know what the anecdote is,
though because it's scary the way we consume. Information one
(50:25):
of the things we were talking about in a previous
interview was that we did an event With pladebusters and
all the kids were sitting there reading and they didn't
care what we had to, say which was great to.
See AND i think the thing to take away was
that kids actually are hungry for that kind of thoughtful.
Content they don't need to just be fed this through
thirty second clips online and in adults, too they want
(50:49):
the deep. Dives you, Know i'm still one of the
dinosaurs On. Instagram we're doing you, know big Level instagram
posts and people come to it and they want to
read it and they want to understand. More and SO
i think that there's a value in. Books there's a
value in deep, dives and we need to keep pushing,
that you, know because that's the only way we're going
(51:09):
to get over this sort of age of misinformation and.
Disinformation we have to be more literate and scientifically, literate.
Speaker 5 (51:16):
Certainly, Yeah and you, know books great because it gives
you the space to do, that to make an. Argument really,
YEAH i suppose what we're trying to do is.
Speaker 3 (51:26):
And make it fun for the. Kids you, know you
got the butthole and there you, got you, got you
got the buttle, that you got the fun, illustrations and
it's just it's been a joy to see kids pick
this book up To AND i just hope that we
can find ways to make science and medicine really fun
for kids and uh and and find new ways to
engage with them on on these really interesting.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
TOPICS i think that Dead ends is it's such an incredible.
Book it's it is something that as a, KID.
Speaker 2 (51:53):
I would have.
Speaker 3 (51:54):
Loved AND i know that there are.
Speaker 1 (51:56):
Tons of nerdy kids out there and non nerdy kids
who are just of this. Book AND i just you,
Know lindsay And, adrian it has been such a joy
to chat with. You it's been a long time. COMING
i feel like there's like a parasocial relationship thing going
on Where i'm, LIKE i know, you this is.
Speaker 2 (52:12):
Amazing we're, like we're friends.
Speaker 3 (52:14):
Already SO i was just so happy that we could
finally connect up and chat about. This AND i know
that we'll be talking about Sleuth hound And facemaker and
whatever else you guys want to talk, about.
Speaker 2 (52:26):
Because all the things, yeahs yeah.
Speaker 3 (52:29):
Fun so thank you for amplifying our book in this
extraordinary way as.
Speaker 5 (52:33):
Well thank you.
Speaker 1 (52:54):
A big thank you again To lindsay And adrian for
taking the time to chat with. US i am it's
so glad that we finally got to have you all
on the.
Speaker 5 (53:02):
Pod what a.
Speaker 1 (53:03):
Delight if you enjoyed today's episode and would like to learn,
more check out our website this podcast will Kill you dot.
Com We're i'll post a link to where you can
find Dead ends, flukes flops and failures that sparked medical,
marvels as well as links To lindsay's website And adrian's
website where you can find their other incredible. Work and
don't forget you can check out our website for all
(53:25):
sorts of other cool, things including but not limited, to
Transcripts quarantini And, placybrita, recipes show notes and references for
all of our, episodes links to merch our bookshop Dot
org affiliate, page Our goodreads, list a first hand account,
form and music By. Bloodmobile speaking of, which thank you
To bloodmobile for providing the music for this episode and
(53:48):
all of our. Episodes thank you To Leana squilacchi And
Tom bryfogel for our audio, mixing and thanks to you
listeners for. LISTENING i hope you liked this episode and
our loving being.
Speaker 2 (53:59):
Part of the t vpw K y Book.
Speaker 1 (54:01):
Club and a special thank, you as always to our fantastic.
Patrons we appreciate your support so very. Much, well until next,
time keep washing those hands
Hosts And Creators
Erin Welsh
Erin Allmann Updyke
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Ruthie's Table 4
For more than 30 years The River Cafe in London, has been the home-from-home of artists, architects, designers, actors, collectors, writers, activists, and politicians. Michael Caine, Glenn Close, JJ Abrams, Steve McQueen, Victoria and David Beckham, and Lily Allen, are just some of the people who love to call The River Cafe home. On River Cafe Table 4, Rogers sits down with her customers—who have become friends—to talk about food memories. Table 4 explores how food impacts every aspect of our lives. “Foods is politics, food is cultural, food is how you express love, food is about your heritage, it defines who you and who you want to be,” says Rogers. Each week, Rogers invites her guest to reminisce about family suppers and first dates, what they cook, how they eat when performing, the restaurants they choose, and what food they seek when they need comfort. And to punctuate each episode of Table 4, guests such as Ralph Fiennes, Emily Blunt, and Alfonso Cuarón, read their favourite recipe from one of the best-selling River Cafe cookbooks. Table 4 itself, is situated near The River Cafe’s open kitchen, close to the bright pink wood-fired oven and next to the glossy yellow pass, where Ruthie oversees the restaurant. You are invited to take a seat at this intimate table and join the conversation. For more information, recipes, and ingredients, go to https://shoptherivercafe.co.uk/ Web: https://rivercafe.co.uk/ Instagram: www.instagram.com/therivercafelondon/ Facebook: https://en-gb.facebook.com/therivercafelondon/ For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iheartradio app, apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.