Wrongfully Convicted

In this episode, Tamika and Mysonne discuss hair struggles, the dangers of harmful products, the importance of self-care, and the impact of real music. They also interview Jason Flom who is a criminal justice reform advocate and founding board member of the Innocence Project. In this conversation, they discuss the work he has done in advocating for wrongfully convicted individuals such as Pierre Rushing. 

They discuss the challenges in the legal process and the role of the District Attorney in reviewing cases. The conversation concludes with a reminder to protect what truly matters and not to die over things that don't make sense.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Yeah, that's what's up.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
Family. It's your girl to mek a d Valories and.

Speaker 1 (00:10):
It's your boy mighte son that general and this is
t M I T mek you and my Song's Information, Truth,
Motivation and Inspiration.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
Formerly known as street Politicians new name us uh.

Speaker 1 (00:24):
I like that.

Speaker 3 (00:24):
I like that.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
I'm in the struggle.

Speaker 1 (00:29):
Where is the struggle will be in.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
The struggle of my entire life. Never in my life
have I experienced this type of struggle.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
What is that?

Speaker 3 (00:39):
Well?

Speaker 2 (00:40):
I decided that I will no longer pern my hair.

Speaker 1 (00:45):
And what made you to come to that eclase?

Speaker 2 (00:48):
And so all of the inside of my head hasn't
been purned in I don't know ten years. But around
the edges and in the top part, which is what
they call the coverage for your I always put a
little bit of texturizer, which is the same thing as
a perm but they just it sounds a little bit

(01:09):
bad to just make sure it lays down because when
you sweat, between you and I sweat and I sleep.
I don't sweat when I work out, which is crazy,
but when I sleep, I sweat. And you know, certain
things you do the summertime, different different activities it gets
and just wear and tear. It starts to get all
crazy and you gotta rush it. And I don't know

(01:31):
how to do anything related to here. I can do anything.
I could make one corn row. That's it. I not
know will yeah, I literally, I literally can only make
one corn roll.

Speaker 1 (01:44):
I will never forget somebody that's always talking about that.

Speaker 2 (01:49):
I don't know. When I say don't know how to
do anything, I see this ditty our friend she was
to tell me of the day, like, bruh, you don't
need per you need to learn how to do your edges.
First of all. Edge control I'm looking for. I use
my l It's a little green bottle I do and
it works a little bit better. But it might just
be me because I have like horse hair that my

(02:12):
edges I don't do well. Other people I see it
between is Diddy and Jennifer Williams and all these people.
They be slicking it down and they be all cute.
It doesn't work for me like that, So I'm not
good at doing any of that. So that's why I
need a little texturize it, because then it just kind
of leads down all the time. But now I'm doing
I'm going natural and I did this. I made this

(02:33):
decision because I was riding in the car with Ben Crump.
You may or may not have been there. You may
not have, but I was riding the car with Ben
Crump one day and I was like, cause, you know,
be sewing a company that has perm right, And so
I was asking him, like, since you started sewing them,
and since this lawsuit is in progress, have they changed

(02:56):
the formula of the PERF Because obviously they know that
PE have definitely deference that the research is clear, like
there is a clear connection between the verb and people
who have cancer, different types of cancers. That has to
feel it, right, So I asked him have they changed
the formulan he was like, well, no, it's the same
formula because if they changed the formula, it's like admitting guilt, right,

(03:20):
So why would you do that in the middle of
illegal bottle. Maybe some things have changed because as a
company goes on, they do little things, but in terms
of really really really making sure that it's not harmful
to people, no, it hasn't been done. And he was like,
you're not putting that stuff in your hare, are you?
And I was a sudden there, like, oh no, maybe
I want to rule was it was.

Speaker 1 (03:42):
It's fair.

Speaker 2 (03:42):
I mean, he faba, we said this to me like
over a year ago, and you just come it too.
Well what I did. I didn't just come to the
conclusion Oh okay, I'm just trying. Yeah. Well No, what
happened was all summer, I wore my hair basically in
braids to allow for are the purn to grow out.
So I did that the whole sum Then I got

(04:04):
back into, you know, put in my hair. I like
my tresses every now within and I'm like, hey, you
see how you see how I like that? So and
then when I got back into wearing my hair, it
was really bad because I as soon as I take
my braids out, I immediately put a little texturizer, do
my weve and you know whatever. And I didn't. So

(04:25):
when it came to holiday time, beginning right before Thanksgiving,
I was like, bro, take it all out. Shout out
to Delasia, my hair braider, and Alicia, my hairstylist. They
figured it out. They made me look good. But then
it was like, Okay, now it's out, and I gotta
go back to my other hairstyle. And I don't know
how to do that without her. So in November Thanksgiving time,

(04:46):
I put the braids back in my hair and I
held on to the for as long as I can.
But I can't. I can't. So now I'm like, you
gotta start the process, all right, And you just got
to so here Ryan, And it's bad. Oh my god,
this morning, I was, I was, I was.

Speaker 3 (05:03):
It was bad.

Speaker 2 (05:04):
The struggle is real. But they well, thank you. I
appreciate that they say that it trains itself at the while,
like you know, so all the sisters that's out there. Actually,
we're gonna do a little bit more on this topic
because Cascade Productions, our production team is has been involved
with reporting and organizing it around the lawsuits and looking

(05:26):
at the victims of uh, you know, people who have actually.

Speaker 1 (05:29):
So exactly what happened to.

Speaker 2 (05:34):
For the most part, the cancer is something that has
to do with their reproductive system. However, there have been
other sides, like other cancers like you know, lift no
cancers and things like that, and it seems to be
connected to the creamy crap as they call it. You know,
it's just something we started. Well we're really young. It

(05:55):
was a tool that was given to people to help
deal with managing of course here kids, but this, that
and the third, and you know, it's just it's never
been good for us, and people are away from it.

Speaker 1 (06:09):
It's so much. I get crazy.

Speaker 3 (06:11):
Thing.

Speaker 1 (06:12):
We just look at our society. A lot of things
that's good to us, it's not good fors and we
indulge in, over indulge in all those things. And then
by the time we get certain age, it really starts
to affect you. Yeah right, it's literally chilling you. A
lot of the stool, sugar and all of the stuff
shall we love to death, and you know we'll snack

(06:34):
your kid the first thing when we get a snack,
and you want to snap. And those things are literally
killing you.

Speaker 2 (06:39):
I love sh no, I love like sugar. Doesn't love sugar, No, No,
it's different for me. I love sugar so bad. And
they were telling me that my granddaughter found a little back.
Now she's only sixteen months old. She don't know nothing
about it. A lot of things. But do you think
kids don't know she found a little some kinic way
you got candy and this, and she was just quiet.

(07:02):
They looked and she was tearing that kiddy up, eating
aper and everything. It's just sweet.

Speaker 1 (07:07):
And good.

Speaker 2 (07:07):
I love sugar.

Speaker 1 (07:10):
Sugar is it thing? Because like a little cake he
you know what I'm saying, a little sweetish fish or
like I'm I'm like addicted to those things. So I
have to stop, like in my process. You know, I've
been doing all out working out and trying to change
my diet and eat better because.

Speaker 2 (07:29):
You know, mean spring chicken, you know you a little
non you little whatever. Yeah, I'm a little more spring
than you, just so you know, okay.

Speaker 1 (07:38):
What but you push you getting it, you know what
I'm saying. So the reality is you have to take
care of yourself. You know what, my check up and
very healthy. But these are things you need to do
in antiox evants and blutele berries and find We're all
the little things that you bett to take care of.
So you know, very guys, you're conscious, intentional.

Speaker 2 (07:59):
I gotta fit. I had a physical I don't know
some months ago, and what they they found immediately was
related to sugar intake. It was like so clear it
was the sugar intake. And then also I don't like
to use the bathroom while I'm outside, so I will
leave my house and look, I see folks, shake, look,
everybody the whole production team is like word, I will

(08:21):
leave my house at nine o'clock in the morning and
do everything in my power not to use the bathroom,
either till I get back or till I find some
place that I really like. I'm like, let me run
in Boomingdale's real quick and try to.

Speaker 1 (08:33):
Go to the.

Speaker 2 (08:35):
Floor where they have the stylists and stuff and use
that bathroom. Like this is a real problem because by
the way, people be nasty, nasty, nasty, nasty. I don't
know what's up with the girls bathroom, but we have
to do that term sisters at her. Yeah, but I've
been into men's bathroom. When I gotta go, I'm going

(08:55):
in whatever bathroom is available. So that's that. And no,
you can't do it. Yes, this is a it's definitely
it's a double standing, whatever you want to call it.
So I don't drink nothing, and then of course you're
not getting your proper water intake. So oh, first of all,
then make sure that shout out to our family, the Smiths,
Jade and Smith. I drink water all just water, all day,

(09:17):
all day, all day and that and now I have
to use the bathroom often, and it's and it's a
new mindset and no matter what, you gotta go to
the bathroom. Another thing in terms of me drinking my water,
kidneys like, there was some stuff that they were like, hey,
you need to watch this.

Speaker 1 (09:34):
Yeah, kidneys are very important, and I think I think
drink too much more. But I drink all day, all day,
either drink water or.

Speaker 2 (09:45):
I'm going to say because I don't drink that and
all day. But when it comes time for cocktails in
the EI asking.

Speaker 1 (09:50):
This liquor all the time. But that's the things that
I try not to drink. The leather juice with digitian
like orae juice who ripped it? Sometimes they say a
factul juice.

Speaker 2 (10:00):
The son I don't drink page the steep park nowadays
look like I'm drinking.

Speaker 1 (10:04):
See, I don't really drink a lot because I remember
when I was incarcerated, I used to drink juice all
the time that I had build up like acid like
acid reflux, you know, over saying from trading arbitrary scolled tons.
So I started I had like little kidney stones from.

Speaker 2 (10:20):
Have refrigerating. I don't, I don't, I mean I drink
you what's your refrigerated's a drink I drink.

Speaker 1 (10:26):
It's nothing, it's water and well it's some SOLDI and
things that I don't really drink, but I had it
from the super Bowl party and nobody drank. But it
was funny to mix this get wherever.

Speaker 2 (10:40):
Yeah, that's why had people like real.

Speaker 1 (10:46):
Dollar Tree. This is somebody. Let me tell you something.
I'm this is this is free promo the Dollar Trees.

Speaker 2 (10:56):
I can't believe you the nobody wants that.

Speaker 1 (10:59):
Listen to him telling you the Dollar Trade is the
best place to shot went there and I brought boxes
and stuff with about sixty dollars. And listen to any
other store I go through. You're digging your little brown
paper bag. This big here's one hundred dollars stuff. You
go to the Dollar Tree. They literally got boxes and stuff.
Everything is a dollar twenty five. It's the best.

Speaker 2 (11:23):
What else is in your refrigerator?

Speaker 1 (11:24):
So what else is in it? Fruits? Vegetables? I got
like cabbage, Okay, you know I'm trying to be healthy.
What watermelon? You know?

Speaker 2 (11:36):
My refrigerator has sparkling water, sand cola GREENO. That's one
I like just water. My refrigerator is full of just water.
I still keep zero percent milk in my refrigerator. Almon,
you drink almond milk, okay, so I still keep zero

(11:56):
percent milk and my refrigerator. What else is in it?
A lot. My snack that I make for myself is cucumbers, tomatoes,
and what's the other one an onion's red onions. That's
what I make, is a snack for when I get hungry,
or watermelon, different fruits. And I've been trying to use brags,

(12:18):
which is supposed to be really good in terms of
dressing Italian dressing or whatever from rags, but it has nothing.
A girlfriend of mine, Jamie, my best friend. She is
she studied to be a chef, so she knows a
lot about foods and different things and labels. Italian dressing
is highly coloric, highly coloric. Like it's like, actually not good.

(12:44):
So I cut it with the brags, so I'm doing better,
but I'm not all the way there yet.

Speaker 1 (12:51):
It suppressed.

Speaker 2 (12:52):
Checking labels. Labels are very important if you actually read something,
what you put in your body, what you're putting in
your mind, if you read the content, if you really
get to understand it, some things you might not at all.
Because once I've read like some of the labels for
a few things, the sugar, the amoulae sugar that's insert.

(13:16):
It's like whoa, I'm actually and by the way they
tell you when you go to the doctor and in
other places you can look it up online exactly how
much sugar and you know certain things calories, cholesterol, whatever,
how much is okay for each person and trust and
believe is like nothing. But most of the products that

(13:37):
we use have passed ten times that in it. So
if you read the labels, it will turn you off
from some of the products, some of the things that
we actually consume. So anyway brings me to my thought
of the day, because reading, because reading is not fundamental
for some people. Tell he's starting not fundamental for some people.

(14:06):
I am so proud of myself that I've moved to
a space in my life now where I can post
something or get into a dialogue with people and they
can be crazy, screaming up, like just going crazy, and
it's I'll really give me some good rests. Like after
I say what I have to say, I'm fine because
I realized we not gonna all agree, especially around this election.

(14:28):
And then you know, a few weeks ago, uh, the
posts that I put up. I reposted something for Chris Brown,
and that was like several days of back and forth,
and I have really been able to see how much
people don't need. They don't, they don't.

Speaker 1 (14:44):
They are willfully bignor with. But I really love believe.

Speaker 2 (14:49):
Doesn't that mean that you like kind of intentionally well,
but some people are just don't know.

Speaker 1 (14:53):
Because they don't not agreeing. Because the thing is when
you like, when you are sit on the you don't
even want to read or get the nation that goes
against so you you willfully just ignore that. Right Because
I'm like, because a lot of people come to my
page and I do like, did you actually did you
actually do any you.

Speaker 2 (15:16):
Have people that I believe there's somebody. I'm really serious
about this and I really mean it. I truly believe
that there is somebody that's paying people to troll. I
definitely believe. Well, well I don't just I don't have
it as bad as you.

Speaker 1 (15:30):
No, it's it's a definition not people just paying the trol.
It's like they're doing things to.

Speaker 2 (15:36):
Stop Well that's a different, you know, that's a different.
But because what happens is.

Speaker 1 (15:43):
I realized that the algorithm feeds just negativity, or they
like they try to feed it like most positive posts
are app were real posting. They don't push it like
they only try to push negativity.

Speaker 2 (15:56):
What I will say, though, is when we look at
the demographics of my page and you black men are
your majority followers and black women are my majority, And
there's something to be said about the ways in which
black men respond to different information. It's very diverse for

(16:18):
a lot of different reasons, but it's something to be
said about how for the most part, and I listen,
I get torn up by black women all the time,
Black women, white women, green women, blue women, they get
in my ass. And some of the black men coming
they tear me up too. But on your page, for
the most.

Speaker 1 (16:37):
Part, pause, I mean, Nason KM my.

Speaker 2 (16:43):
Mama used to say, don't make me get in your ass,
and she definitely wasn't talking about no pause. And if
I would have said pause to us, she would have
got hit it a little bit more. So you know,
that's a whole other thing. But okay, so you know
they they criticize me, let's just to get you know,
So they criticized me, and but on your page, the
criticism is it's like deep, it's deep. I mean it's

(17:08):
like they come, they go to your page and it
doesn't matter if you put up a picture I mean
outside of you posting your children or something like that. Okay,
cool for the most part, it's cool. But if you
post good morning, they're like, oh what about this? And
why that? And you look like this and you did that?
So this is this is like very and I wonder

(17:30):
why it is.

Speaker 1 (17:30):
It's a lot of fake profiles. But it's also that
it's people who are they utilize us as just their
OI bought stings. So man, these people don't never go
outside and they don't have no real interaction. So to
be able to say negative things and get any response
from somebody, it's okay for them because they actually live troll.

(17:52):
It is a real thing. So a lot of these
people they don't have like real social lives, right, they
don't exist outside of the internet. Ya, I'll never forget it.
Amanda steals sign on my page and she can't get
my DMS. It was like I've never anything, she said,
I'm gone through a lot. She said, this page is
the most dramatic should I've ever seen people even go

(18:15):
to you. I'm not your page because it makes you
want to my family be like, yo, I want to
fight people on your page. I'm like, no, it's not
that serious. So it's it's funny to me because you know,
I know I engage because any point that I have,
I can stand on whatever I say, So I don't
mind engage with somebody that has a different perspective than me.

(18:38):
The new Freakmack is about to come out and we
are t m il tm.

Speaker 2 (18:44):
I now that's for real.

Speaker 1 (18:48):
And I know it's a lot of parents. Listen, I
was at a couple of free I don't know if
I'm in the footage, but I know it's a couple
of preemicks, and I know it's a lot of parents
of a couple of Freeings. And I know a lot
of them don't want they to see them in a
couple of them free Nick movies and them those scenes
and niggas a lot going on of them scenes. Trust me,

(19:08):
if you was outside during Freaknant and you was driving
by them cars in them streets, you've seen some.

Speaker 2 (19:14):
Things that you or you did some things.

Speaker 1 (19:17):
You either did some things or scene or both some
things in them Freaknick. So it's that team line, Dude,
do you like how what type of response you think
did that movie?

Speaker 2 (19:29):
I think people are more concerned about their jobs and
their husbands in there. I don't think I think the
children piece. Yes, that's important to them and they but
you could talk to your kids and your kids I
can't believe, Oh my god, like depending on the type
of kids you met and you was outside, depending all
what type of kids we ask. But the job and
when people build themselves up to be this like perfect person,

(19:52):
that's why you should never do that. I say all
the time, I'm imperfect as a mug, But people do that.
They start, you know, they were walking away around they
are this sorority and that organization and the president of
this and whatever, and they have such a squeaky clean
image and don't want to tell people the truth about
who they really are.

Speaker 3 (20:14):
Exactly.

Speaker 2 (20:15):
But you know, that's how it shows that I'm more
of a spring chicken and I was.

Speaker 1 (20:20):
That's not the Thank God.

Speaker 2 (20:22):
I think it might be a little TMI, but it's
just gonna have to deal with this because the things
that you.

Speaker 1 (20:27):
Would just drive by the middle of the street and
see if nobody call it, they camera phone and all
that because people would see somebody with one channel over there,
but I'll never see that person again. That's just gonna
be its own personal I.

Speaker 3 (20:39):
Have the Internet.

Speaker 1 (20:40):
It wasn't none of that, so it's captured it. And
now the internet is here, and now it was a movie.

Speaker 2 (20:47):
Listen to me, make sure you comment and tell us
do you think it's TMI should the movie should come?

Speaker 1 (20:53):
I don't think community based to your husband now, to
know that you was outside.

Speaker 2 (21:00):
Lot of the freakment situation was about music.

Speaker 1 (21:04):
So you have some I do have something, and it's
our new music sect that I will be highlighted. You
know a lot of artists who have dope music. Either
they're unknown artists or some known artists, but I think
the songs have so much substance and are telling so
much of a story that they don't really get the
highlight that they need. So this new music segment we

(21:26):
have is called our real music spotlight and today's artists
is an artist by the name of Yellow Pain, and
the name of the song is called My Vote Don't
Cap And in this song, he brilliantly breaks down the
branches of government. Right. He talks about how since we
are in voting vote relationsies in me, and he talks

(21:49):
about how certain votes he doesn't believe are more important
than others. He explains to you how you think this
branch of government does this, that they actually don't do that.
And he tells you the power of the president where
he actually can't do and he tells you the local
people that you should be voting on. Embrace it down,
so Willianly and I think people need to listen to

(22:12):
this because there's so much misinformation about and that person.
They do this, and I don't know why we vote
with it. You need to understand what you're voting for
and who you're voting for and what they actually can do.
So Yellow Pain, I just want to shout you out.
Make sure that you go listen to the song. The
videos on YouTube. It is called My Boat Don't Count.

(22:33):
It's a dope Yellow Pain. Yellow Pain does that other music.
He does have other music, but this one is big song.

Speaker 2 (22:41):
I love this track now.

Speaker 1 (22:43):
I think people should go look him up. He's actually
a dope artists. He has a lot of substance, you know,
because that's what I want to do. This whole segment
about it's artists with substance artists who have songs for
substect because there's a lot of artists who they only
promote the ignorant songs and they have two or three
really dope song to have substance that if you actually
listen to, you could learn something that actually tells you

(23:04):
the story that actually makes you actually connect to ourist's
always and this.

Speaker 2 (23:09):
Segment is called real Real Music, Spotless.

Speaker 1 (23:13):
Spot We've then the spotlight real music in the real music.

Speaker 2 (23:16):
Yellow Pain, Yellow Pain, mop Buck, the whole down hat
other business. We have a straw very very very important
interview today. As you know, all of you who are
out there will be following us on social media. We
are supporting uh the Justice for Pierre Russian campaign. We've

(23:37):
been trying to bring all the information possible to you
about Pierre Russian. This man was wrongfully convicted. He's serving
a sentence that is unfair and injust and we want
the system to work.

Speaker 3 (23:50):
In his favor.

Speaker 2 (23:51):
We want to trial years, yeah, something like that. Yeah,
we want a new trial, and we want evidence to
be re exism in all of those things. And coming
up right now is one of a major advocate for
him and other wrongfully convicted individuals. It is Jason Flaum.
He's gonna be talking about what is happening with Pierre

(24:13):
right now. I think it was such such such a
dope interview. Let's talk about it.

Speaker 1 (24:18):
So we're gonna go to this previously recorded interview with
Jason Flock. Take a look.

Speaker 2 (24:25):
So we are being joined today by a good friend
of ours that we have begun to work with, or
I have been working with for a while and through
our initiative with Team Rock, which is Rock Nations Baby,
It's philanthropy armed Desiree Perez bought a lot of us together.

(24:48):
You know, when Jay did the deal with the NFL,
it caused a lot of people to have concerns. I
was one of those individuals. You would number two of
those individuals. But they also made a commitment that a
part of their efforts would be to bring a very

(25:09):
diverse group of people together so that we could meet
around a lot of issues and support one another. And
I think the UJC, the United Justice Coalition, has done
that being supportive, showing up for one another. And so
Jason Fohm is someone that I met through Did we
meet before that, Jameson? Probably not, I don't know. Maybe

(25:30):
we did. Maybe we did, but I know exactly. But
I do know for sure that through our work at UJC,
we met Jason and have really begin to understand so
much about what you do every day. Now you start
off at least for my understanding, and not that that

(25:51):
begins your life, but a lot of people know you
as having been the CEO of major record labels.

Speaker 1 (25:59):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (25:59):
So you were in in the industry as a trailblazer
and I was mentioning to you off camera. We were
talking about lack of diversity in leadership in the industry
and how it impacts artists and their ability to have
balance through their voice and what have you. And so
then you just happen to be here today. And I

(26:20):
think one of the things that makes you very different
is the work that you do, the anti racism work
you do every day.

Speaker 1 (26:26):
That's what we know you for.

Speaker 3 (26:28):
Thank you, That's what that's I hope that's what I
will be known for. It's funny I meet people now,
some people just come out through and even a waiter
at a restaurants you out there. You're the criminal justice guy. Yeah,
since I saw you and Joe Rogan, I watched that episode,
so a wee times and I listen to your podcast
Wrong for Conviction. It got me through the pandemic of

(26:48):
the work in the warehouse. And so you know, I
meet people these days who don't know that I've been
in the music business, and that's okay with me, you
know what I mean, Like, that's what I do for
a living. I've been very, very lucky in my career.
But you know the work that I've been doing now
since nineteen ninety three, helping to reform my system and

(27:12):
get as many people out of prison as I possibly
can and prevent as many from going in as I
possibly can.

Speaker 2 (27:17):
That's that's your legacy.

Speaker 3 (27:20):
That's what's keeping meaning. It gives me to my dates.
I get up thinking about it, I go to sleep
thinking about it, and I think about it in between.
And luckily, I'm in a position where I'm able to
have an impact. And so that's what I do, and
that's what I'm going to continue to do until my
last breath.

Speaker 2 (27:36):
And speaking of sorry, I just wanted to make sure
I mentioned you know that speaking of impact, you are
one of the founding board members of the Innocence Project,
in which my son will speak to how much he's
been working with members of the organization just looking at
cases around this country, trying to get people free. And
so we appreciate you for that. And now hosts seeing

(28:00):
your podcast Wrongful Convictions, as you said, listen, you got
to swag on today, we want to get no.

Speaker 1 (28:09):
I just want to know how long have you been
doing the podcast?

Speaker 3 (28:13):
So started in twenty sixteen, so this is our eighth year.
Word over seventy million down loads. Now we've gotten you know,
quite We've helped to free quite a number of roughly
convicted people, including Robbie Long, who was just at the
news the other day. Wow, youge settled in North Carolina.
I spoke to him, so happy for him, forty four

(28:37):
years wrongfully convicted. He should have gotten you can serve
it by a lot of people don't. And so yeah,
So each week we tell stories with the person who
lived it. Sometimes I interview people on death row, people
that are still in prison, serving lights, people who've been
in for decades. Other Times I interview people who have

(28:57):
been through that unreal ordeal and come out the other
side as are free, because I think those stories are
important to tell as well.

Speaker 1 (29:08):
So what was the transition like what would golf from
the CEO to doing innocence and wallful condition work, Like
I don't even know how that happens. Like what made
you say, you know what, I don't want to do this.
This is more of what I want to do with
the process.

Speaker 3 (29:26):
Well, when I started, I was far from becoming a CEO.
I was still just thought of a mid level A
and R executive. But I saw a story in the
newspaper that blew my mind. And it was the story
of a kid who was serving fifteen years to life
on non violent first defense cocaine possession charge in a
maximum security prison in New York State. And I was
cocaine possession and I was like, this cannot possibly be right.

(29:50):
Like I mean, I had my own issues with substance
abuse as a kid, and I knew that if not
for the color of my skin and the zip code
I was born in or was raised in, I would
have been at one hundred percent. So I was like,
that could have been me. I ended up in rehab
because that's where they said kids like me, you know,
white kids that came from that area at that time.

(30:11):
So I just I freaked out. I decided I had
to do something about this, and so I didn't know
anything about what I was doing. But I managed to
get an attorney to take the case front bono. I
knew this guy because he represented two Urt Side Side
Stole Temple Piles. This kid wrote, they're getting arrested like
weekly back then, so that's a slight exaggeration. But I
got him to take the case pro bono. He said

(30:32):
it was hopeless. This kid happened to be the same
age as I was, at thirty two years old, and
he had been in for eight years already and was
serving the fifteenth life like I said, mandatory fifteen. And
somehow or other, we ended up in a court room
six months later in Malone, New York, up by the
Canadian border, and bring this kid in shackles. I never

(30:52):
forget that his legs were changing. I was like, is
this guy like a serial killer? Like he got a
non violent first of festal papers. I stretched, I's just
not get it twisted, and so I was like, this
seems a little extreme. But the arguments went back and forth.
I didn't even know what was going on because I
didn't understand it any day about these issues back then,
like most people don't until it affects them and what

(31:15):
touches they're failing. And the judge with old white haired guy,
this guy's never but he banged the gavel down and
said the motion is granted and set the kid off.
I was like, wow, I guess I have a superpower,
you know, Like I mean, if I could do that,
then I'm going to do that. I'm gonna do a

(31:36):
lot of that. And so I learned very soon after that,
for if I read roland Stone magazine about organization that
recently started called Families Against Mandatory Benoance. His case was
a manatory medal case. I joined their board, so they
gat the first board remember there, And then soon after
that I saw some of the TV about it in
this this project case. It was a branded organization back then,
but they've gotten this guy off a death row who

(31:56):
was scheduled to be executed, and they found the DNA
and Barry Shek and Peter Nukes, all the founders and
they went and got this guy not only not to
be executed, but they got it free. And I was like,
that's the craziest.

Speaker 1 (32:09):
Shit I've iver seen.

Speaker 3 (32:11):
Like I didn't even think about the idea until then
that we execute innocent people. Well, I mean, I don't
think we should execute anybody, but that's beside the point
innocent people. I was like, so, I just want I
just marched down in this as Project offices and said,
I'm your guy, I don't know what you need to
be done, but I'm doing it. I'm gonna do whatever
you asked me to do. And then so and so
I joined forces with them back in the mid nineties,

(32:35):
and that's what you know. That's the origin story right there.

Speaker 2 (32:38):
How many people would you say at this point, since
you're involvement in the Innocence Project, that you want cases
that you just worked on because we know that the
end result is not always what we want. But you
still have worked on cases and given people hope and
light and given their their stories light. So how many
cases would you say at this point I worked with

(33:01):
a person.

Speaker 3 (33:01):
Yeah, I've lost cat all the time ago. It's hundreds,
but I have no idea.

Speaker 2 (33:09):
How many Do you know how many people have actually
been freed as a result.

Speaker 1 (33:13):
Of your work?

Speaker 3 (33:14):
I don't. I mean it's direct and indirect. If you
could have had the experience last year of having dinner
with a number of people and one guy DeMarco Carpent
dirt and uh, you know, halfway through dinner, I says, no,
you got me at a prison. I was like, oh, yeah, forgot.
It's like and that's okay. I mean, like, I didn't
mean that to be offensive. It's just that you do,

(33:35):
you know work, I have just forget some of these
That's that makes me feel, that makes me sleep while
at night. And he's a fantastic human being. The Marco too,
He's really been through it Oklahoma, and you know, over
twenty years, awfully convicted, really targeted by the police there
in ways that there goes beyond the typical a biction case,

(33:58):
if there is such a thing. So yeah, so I've
lost track a long time ago. And I've also worked
on the issues to try to three people on a
wholesale level, working with organizations like the Whole Yeah, and
so indirect involvement in things like the Obama Clemency's, but
also in you know, providing funding for organizations like civil

(34:22):
rights cores you know, who have read hundreds of thousands
of people are prevented that many people from going to
jail in the first place by changing the laws right,
by preventing people from going to jail just because they're
arrested in two portabate bail right, which is on constitutions
Violay fourteen amendments, So you know the you know those.

(34:43):
Of course, the macro changes are more important than micros
are more meaningful, right, And the individuals when I'm able
to to help somebody in a hopeless place, trapped, just
one of two million people at President of America trying
to get their voice heard that. You know, that feels
better because you know the other one is a number.

(35:04):
But I don't know any of those, but I'm glad
that they're they're there with their families where they belong,
and not any one of.

Speaker 2 (35:11):
These system when you're doing network.

Speaker 3 (35:15):
And by the way, before we waiting for that, I
got to give you so far because I was reading
this one of the great books the other day and
Inconvenient Cop Edward Raymond. Everybody should read this book.

Speaker 2 (35:25):
It is such a good book.

Speaker 3 (35:26):
Everybody, get somebody to read it for you. I don't care.
Get this book. And inconvenient Cop. I haven't Raymond. I
met him at the j C again and uh, and
there's your name with big stars around it, I mean,
coming up just you know, at the right time, in

(35:46):
the right place, but with you know, coming from a
place of just conviction and courage that you know I
can only you know, I can always say, I mean
very hard.

Speaker 2 (36:00):
Thank you. I appreciate that you know. Edwin was a
breath of fresh air. And it wasn't just him. I
mean it was Edwin and the other officers, including one
woman who really suffered and continues to suffer, who you know,
came to us and said they needed help. And like
you said, I feel like, you know, we got involved.

(36:24):
Edwin now has, he's run for office, he is, he's
his book, he's now an author, he's doing so many
incredible things. When I look at him, I don't necessarily
see my role, although I know that I did play
a role in helping him to get his voice out there.
But what I do feel is we disrupted something that
was happening within the system that people didn't really want

(36:46):
to talk about. So and sometimes that's all you need
is a brave soul liking Edwin to come forward. That
helps to make your case that we've already been.

Speaker 1 (36:56):
Right, because a lot of times when you do this work,
you know, it gets a little disheartening, Like you don't.
You don't see people like Ringmond like you know that
come from the inside and able to help you push
the work that you're doing. So when you get somebody
like that gives you another first breath of eight, like Okay,

(37:18):
now we've got some people, and that he's bringing more people,
so you know, shut up to ring and shut up.
So he's today and you have this case that I've
been seeing you talk about.

Speaker 2 (37:31):
Yeah, you're like crazy over this case.

Speaker 1 (37:34):
And when you get when you hear what's going on
with this case, you deserve it, actually crazy.

Speaker 4 (37:39):
So like give us like a synopsis of what's going
on this Yeah, so thanks for bringing us back to
back because that's really the reason why we're here.

Speaker 3 (37:49):
This is the case of a guy named Pierre Rushing
who was in prison in California. He's been in uh
for about thirteen years, and it's an Oakland case. And
you know, I deal with wildly convicted people all day,
every day, and my phone doesn't stop ringing. We covered

(38:10):
them on the podcast. I advocate for them in governor's offices,
anywhere I can get attention, speak with lawyers and yays
pressed immediate. But here's case stuck out to me, and
so much so that when I was offered. There's a
law firm called Greenberg Trowering and a general a lawyer
there that Jordan Ratzinger, had heard my podcast and reached

(38:34):
out and said he wanted to get the firm involve
pro bono in a case. That's one of the biggest,
best law firms in the country. So I went for
a hike, we went for lunch, whatever, and we said
that I gave it fives that I thought, really, you know,
really deserved. You know, they even stuck out above some

(38:55):
of the others, you know, and that's a crazy standard
because some of these brought makes a case of absolutely
mind shit there. You cannot believe the people are in prison.
But Pierre stuck out and so so yeah, I'm sure
a lot of your your listeners probably have a loved one,
maybe they are themselves because it's a scourge out there.

(39:17):
But so so Pierre's case, we decided that was one
that we could really make a difference. He was a
promising young man growing up. He had a career, a
urgent career in hip hop music. So I guess I
connected on that level as well because he you know,
it seemed like he might have been on the verge

(39:38):
and he was wrawfully arrested for a murder. It was crazy.
I mean, it's must have been the very last iPod murder.
But somebody was murdered over an iPod. You imagine that.

Speaker 1 (39:51):
Right, Google it.

Speaker 3 (39:56):
And these four guys had rolled up, someone had gotten out,
thought somebody that's the on their iPod. Maybe they did
out't know, jumped out of the car and there was
a confrontation and somebody was shot and killed. Well, the
witness who came forward was an admitted drug addict. He
admitted that he was using crack at least six times

(40:17):
a day, among other drugs, and was He gave some
description of a guy and a certain colored hat, a
certain colored car. Here happened to have a car of
that color, maybe on the hat whatever. It was like
some ridiculous circumstancial stuff. And when the police first interviewed him,

(40:37):
they asked her, where were you at three forty five
on such and such day, three toteen or three forty five,
And he told him, but he thought they meant in
the daytime, but they meant in the night three five
am when he was actually at his grandmother's house with
his girlfriend, and his grandfriend is now a government official.
Like she's a serious person, right, not that anybody you know,

(40:59):
that shouldn't even necessarily matter. But she's not. She was
not abusing cracks six times a day, right, She's a
credible persons always say. And so he gave the wrong information.
He said he was celebrating his birthday or whatever it was,
and that turned out not to be true. So then
all of a sudden, all it was was And first

(41:22):
of all, that's always crazy to me because when that,
oftentimes the police will go to you and say, myself,
where were you on uh you know, uh October, you know, third,
And you'll be like, it's January. I don't remember where
I was yesterday at this time, right, I mean, did
I get Chinese? I don't remember what I was doing?

(41:44):
But did they expect you to know this? And and
you know, for many of us from any of these cases,
was before the days when we had a calendar on
our phones. Although you might never remember him, everybody has
to write everything down. So that was how this thing
started going in the wrong direction first place. But he
did have an alibi, and there was no physical evidence

(42:06):
connecting the case in any way. The car was taken
in by the police. They actually found the car and
they tested the front seat for biological evidence. There was
no evidence of Pierre whatever in that car or that
he knew the victim, and they never tested the backseat
to see if any biological evidence. You know, we're always shedding,

(42:30):
you know, touchings to shedding DNA, you know, all the time.
Air could be there. Now that these are perfect sciences,
but they would have given an indication, but they and
we're now trying to get those things tested to further prove.
Now this witness is recarred, by the way, and also

(42:54):
important that the shooter was identified as a guy named C.
Street name C. Now, Pierre's name is Pierre Rushing. He
don't even have a C in there anywhere, and he's
never been known as and now it seems pretty clear
who C actually is. And so this case at this
point kind of comes with instructions where if fake chose

(43:17):
to they could go and interview the witness, they could.

Speaker 2 (43:25):
Car and the judge would do that.

Speaker 3 (43:27):
It would have to compute let's right to get it oil.
So so you know, so the DA in in Pallabeda
County is a woman at panel of Price. She's you know,
she's I believe, a good woman. I think that she is,
you know, a da who you know, read on these

(43:51):
type of issues of getting justice in these cases and
not just tough on crime and all the other nunsers
that we do all the time. So I think we
have reason to believe that she is someone who would
you know, take case like this seriously, when you have
the type of attention brought to this case and where

(44:14):
you have a for La Greenberg Charch there's probably put
a million dollars, has disproven every aspect of the case
that the state made you think that it would. I
think you think that the jail doors would just fly open, okay,
because just one wrong, Yes, this one wrong. Let's said
this guy always been here for thirteen years with mister Rushing.

(44:36):
We're sorry, we made a mistake. There's a compensation move
all with your life. And by the way, that's an
IMPORTNISI compensation We talk about that online fast all the time,
is that most of the people that are exonerated never
get any conversation, but we hear about the ones who do.
But anyway, that's what that's what I would like to
see happen, and I believe it's a relatively straight over
process that the DA's office. That I get it, they're swamped.

(44:59):
They haven't gonna be sure. There's a lot of cases.
There's a lot of rushings out there, right And I'm
not saying, because I'm advocating for him that he should
be that, you know, push everybody else out of the way.
But I do think that this case is is pretty
clear cut at this point, and that if they were

(45:20):
willing to just you know, have look at people in
their office, go and take the steps that we talked
about to do these interviews and testing that where's.

Speaker 2 (45:35):
The car that it could be tested again.

Speaker 3 (45:39):
Evidence I don't know if they take the seats out
or what they do one way ornother.

Speaker 2 (45:45):
Available.

Speaker 1 (45:46):
So it is the emotion that you put into the courts.

Speaker 3 (45:53):
The the courts are a very poor remedy. Jordan Gratzinger,
the lawyer from Great Word Chauer, went and argued in
the appeals court, the problem is that the standards are
so virtually possible to me, because the appeals court effectively

(46:17):
has to decide that no other finder of fact could
have possibly ruled the way this judge or jury did,
and so that means that fighting against the silk.

Speaker 1 (46:30):
Yeah, they basically they get to say, yeah, we did
the best we can and we know we did.

Speaker 2 (46:34):
We don't have to do no checks and balances.

Speaker 3 (46:37):
And that all goes back to the horrible you know
ETPA Act in the nineteen ninety six at the federal
government pass where they made it virtually impossible for people
to appeal their sentences because they wanted finality right in
this country, finalities out in the pedile legal system as
opposed to justice, and so they made it that's crazy.

Speaker 1 (46:56):
Yeah, it's just when you when you just did, you
hate what he just did. Finality is more important than
just right, Like they just want to get it over with.
They don't care if they got it right or wrong.
They just want to say, Okay, we done, We're finished
with this. And that's crazy. Imagine your life being being
held to somebody's criteria that all they want to do

(47:17):
is finalize. They don't want to get it right, they
don't want to look through that you did, we do
this everything. They just want to say we finished. It's crazy.

Speaker 3 (47:26):
It's hard to understand it. I mean, I think for
most of us and you know it's it's incumbent on
us to get good prosecutors elected in every city and
county that we can.

Speaker 2 (47:42):
And also till politics matter, politics matter, voting matters.

Speaker 3 (47:47):
You know people are already hearing that, but spit thinking
about this. In local elections especially, you know you can
your vote really matters DA races, not that.

Speaker 2 (47:56):
Many people vote, because you could be in Atlanta and
a crime happened. Where is this other place you said,
these are the eight in Florida, not even be there.
So because the reason why I want to zero in
on this is because there are people who believe and
I could. I'm telling you I have some older family

(48:17):
members that would say, if you stay away from problems,
you stay away from, you know you won't get yourself
in any trouble. Those things won't happen to you if
you stay away. But I don't know how much further
you could be from Florida where a crime takes place
than Atlanta and still somehow you find yourself in these situations.
But not enough people understand it until it happens to them,

(48:41):
which is what we don't want.

Speaker 3 (48:42):
Listen, We've got a number of those cases. I've been
working on the case. So we got a temage and
Kensu in Michigan who was over four hundred miles away
when the murder took place, and Pece, you're on and
there's no question that that is true. And yet the
state came up with a theory that he went to
a local airfield. He was broke as a joke right,

(49:04):
living in the trailer, had no access to money of
any kind, that he went to a local airfield and
found a pilot just hanging out who was willing to
fly him round trip for for free, while not making
any record of the flight. Also would have had to
buy gas because the planes there are too small to
make that round trip. But there's no record of the flight,
there's no record of the pilot, there's no record of

(49:25):
the gas. And yet the state presented this is evidence
because they knew, they knew he was in this other
city at about one thirty two o'clock in the morning,
and they knew he was back there at his karate
class at noon. And it's an eight and a half
hour drive with no traffic each way, and the murder
happened at night thirty in the morning. And yet he's

(49:46):
been in prison for thirty six years and he's still
sitting here. He's a white guy. And then you have
Pedro Renoso. I interviewed Paedro Renoso on my podcast. He
was convicted of a double murder in Philadelphia when he
was in the Dominican Republic. He has the passport stamps
and the travel documents and video, and he signed a
landy that day and he attended his son's baptism. And

(50:06):
he has a dozen witnesses, including a priest and a
cop that was down there at the baptism. And you
sit there and go, how is this man in prison?
What are you talking about? Did he fly in and
out with nobody noticing, like from a foreign country on
the same day. Come on, now, this is like you know,
but the thing is once once you get caught in
that quicksand.

Speaker 1 (50:29):
You say this thing to get into an artist thing,
to get up exactly.

Speaker 3 (50:32):
And that's what worry for. That's why I listen. I think,
you know, I'm so glad to be here talking to
you about the pure Russian case and these other cases.
It's why I hope people will listen to the Raw
for Commission podcast, because when you do, there'll be a
case that you'll hear about that will touch you that
you may want to get involved in some way, or
you may hear something one of the legal experts that
we interview that might impact you or somebody you love.
And most importantly, I hope that people will listen because

(50:57):
you're gonna someday get that jury duty. But if that
thing is, oh man, I'm so busy. I don't want
to go, but you gotta go.

Speaker 1 (51:08):
When you go, I want people to take you experience,
bring the understanding, but.

Speaker 2 (51:14):
Don't bring don't tell everybody the thing is you have.

Speaker 1 (51:17):
To bring in reality into those court rooms. I sat
on a trial right with people that I knew, didn't
even understand what was going on from my career, just
didn't even understand how you can actually be railroaded for something,
how you could actually be accused of something. And they
didn't They didn't have any evidence or anything, but just
somebody said you did something, and that was enough. That

(51:40):
was really just enough, and I understood, Like then, it's
nobody from where I come from that has seen this
happen to be like now that have more than they
asks certain questions that I would ask, like, well, if
you say any of this, then why not this and
why did this like it? There's nobody there, so we
have to be very very attentionib about Jerry dirty and
the voting and voting in all of those things. But

(52:02):
you know, I know you got to go soon, but
I want to ask, so, what what can we do
right now? What is in the process of what's going
on with p A. Rushing? You know, is there like
what did you do? We waiting for DA? The evidence
that you have, has it been presentative? D A is
the meetings of hell rasell call up like, well, this

(52:23):
doesn't even make sense that this man is still sitting
a jib.

Speaker 3 (52:25):
No, it makes sense. The case is completely collapsed and
never went much vacation in the first place, but now
it's completely collators and Edison Man, I can say that unequidically,
and I think what we can do is we can
make our voices heard on social media. You know, my
Instagram is it's Jason Flow, It's I T S Jason
and the last as that fellow ambs Justice for Pierre

(52:47):
Rushing for VR Rushing, you go to Justice for VR
Rushing dot com. Thanks for shouting that out and read
the write letters to the DA does actually work? You
know they talk out of the office. I know you
think it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.

Speaker 1 (53:04):
It's gonna have sure. We want to make sure that
we put the office and everything up so that people
can contact and and let them know that this is
was crazy and they need to you know, no expeditiously.
A man's been sitting a jil.

Speaker 3 (53:16):
For thirteen years and I coached and I couraged people
to be respectful. If you called your office irrespectful, remember
the person that's answering the phone didn't do anything, you
know what I mean. So you might be angry about
this case. I'm angry about it, but it doesn't help,
you know, just be you know, be dignified, be respectful,
but make your voice heard because your voice matters. And
going back to the voting thing, and then I will

(53:37):
touch on Jory Judy one war time, but on the
voting thing. You know, these DA racists have real consequences.
You know. I was very proud to have been involved
with Jason Williams's rotten successful one in Louisiana where and
he freed over three hundred people the first year it
was in office. Now six of them were convicted. The
rest were convicted by nine unanimous jury. Because Weuisia used

(53:58):
to have a nine unanimous jury for the prison for
the rest of your life unattended to you're.

Speaker 2 (54:03):
Used to have dysruption. Okay, the last two states, Oregon
doesn't happen anymore. So nowhere across the untry wondering spree.

Speaker 3 (54:13):
Court said no, no, I can't do anymore. So, but
they didn't make a retroactive and when it was what
Supreme Court was this. This was only a few years ago,
so I don't remember exactly. I think it was before.

Speaker 1 (54:22):
So they did some people who have been convicted of
it's still up. You been to gate up.

Speaker 3 (54:28):
So Jason went and said, hey, I'm going to look
at these cases like well you were suggesting with our
man who was a good man. And I believe it's
going to Alan started to really get his stride. I
hope he's going to start, you know, more and more
people are going to be coming home.

Speaker 1 (54:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (54:42):
I love the album. Bragg is a friend. You know,
that doesn't mean I agree with him all the time.
I all love him as a friend. Erica, Oh, we
love Eric dar cl Clark in the Bronx picked up.

Speaker 3 (54:56):
The Manthla from Ken Thompson and I have a lot
of respect and I I can personally and I had
a lot of respect for the work that he's done.
I think he's you know, as good of a da
as we got in New York statey A Wall shout out.

Speaker 2 (55:07):
To our dear sister Lushawan Thompson, who is the widow
of Ken Thompson, and she is invested actually helping to
work on, you know, continuing Ken's legacy. But I do
want to say one thing is that I noticed, and
I'm sure that there are people listening who are like,
we just gonna wait and see how long it takes
to Meka to ask this question. As we close, we

(55:29):
talk every name. I heard you say it was a man.
What is happening with women who have been wrongfully convicted?
Because one of the things we talk about all the
time is that there are so many women in the
system that don't get visits. There's no one paying attention
to their cases.

Speaker 1 (55:45):
It's just not the.

Speaker 2 (55:46):
Focus women incarcerated women. And there are more people like
to peek of Sam and you know, of course the
work Jamila has done and others who are trying to
send a cross that are trying to bring attention two
women who are incarcerated. But what do you think you know?
And I think this sometimes with DEI if that applies here,

(56:08):
we have to have a very specific focus when you
know there's not been much of a focus at all.
So just wondering if there are women that you all
are engaged with.

Speaker 3 (56:17):
Absolutely just a few that come to mind. Melissa Kayazinski
in Illinois, totally innocent daycare were for for a child
at a fall and tragically died, but she had nothing
to do with it. She's one. I mean a number
of women who I'm working with who are out but
still not exonerated, like Kierra Newsome, Tyra Patterson, and there

(56:37):
are a number of other cases we don't have tied
to go through all of them that we're involved with.
A women who are in prison now. In fact, we
just released a podcast this week. I'll have case of
a woman named Niki Zinger who was Ralphiger micked her
mother and it's obvious case Patty pruittt in Missouri, who's
seventy four years old, has been in for half of
her life at this point, and it is absolutely innocent

(56:59):
of killing her eyes. So women, it's I'm so glad
you brought it up. My girlfriend Kalia Ali, who is
the daughter of the great Man who would have been
eighty two years old today. You know, she's going down
to spend four nights in prison in Texas. She's going
to highlight the issues of women in prison, spend at
night in the maternity war, to night at hospice, and
night and death row and the knight of general populations

(57:22):
and when it comes to women, it's important. And we
can close on this or whatever you want. But in America,
we have less than five percent of the world's population.
We have twenty five percent of the world's prison population.
But what people don't talk about is we have thirty
three percent of the world's female prison podcast so we
lock women.

Speaker 2 (57:40):
Up, say time fast growing.

Speaker 3 (57:43):
As the rest of the world, as the rest of
the Western world, eight times is high.

Speaker 1 (57:48):
Do we have women in America that are different?

Speaker 3 (57:50):
Right? Right?

Speaker 1 (57:51):
Of course not?

Speaker 3 (57:52):
And I say it sounds so ridiculous to even say
an things question, But yeah, that has to change. And
these women, the majority of them are And we know
how that ripple effect pays blakes, right, we know what's
going to happen with those kids that gonna end up
at foster care and then the slope gets real slippery
from there, and you know, uh, it's it's it's a
national disgrace and it doesn't get talked about enough. So

(58:15):
I appreciate you bringing that up because well, as.

Speaker 2 (58:19):
We closed, I really want to ask a personal question.
That is something that I struggle with, and that is
the idea that we can't help everybody. You want to,
but you just can't. And I wonder how you deal
with that? You know, at Until Freedom our organization, we
hear all the time, how come you know why Breonna Taylor?

(58:40):
In fact, just over the recent King Holiday, another mother
who is grieving the loss of her child, which was
very different from Breonna Taylor's situation, but her grief turned
into or attacking other people?

Speaker 1 (58:54):
Why not?

Speaker 3 (58:55):
You know?

Speaker 2 (58:55):
And We've dealt with that many times, families, communities, people
challenging us. And one of the things that I've had
to accept is that I can only do what I
can do. And it's like it's almost like a therapy
session that I have with myself regularly, and I wonder,
what do you do to deal with that anxiety of
being unable to get to every case?

Speaker 3 (59:21):
A box, you know, try to take the aggressions out
on the punching bag because it is frustrating. I mean,
we can't help everybody. I wish I could. If I
had a magic wand, I would turn the old country
outside down to shake about ninety percent of people in
prison out at least, and we would have no problem
that we no infreasing crime, there will be no detriment

(59:41):
to public safety. But unfortunately I don't have that magic
wand I think all we can do is shout out
from the rooftops. Tell three people today, tells three people
to watch this show that you were listen to this podcast.
You just hurt spread the work. That's all we can do.
We got to build an arvy out there. We need
an army of Tamikas and my sons and Jason's to
get out there. And that's how that's how we're gonna.

Speaker 1 (01:00:02):
Have to make this change. Well, we want to thank
you Jason for the work you do, you know, for
gracing our podcast. Hopefully you know, Pierre be home so
you know we will have it on the show and
we'll be able to sit in here celebrate him being free.
We're gonna make sure that we get that information that
we can write respectfully. You know on request that the

(01:00:25):
DA looks at this overwhelming evidence and and does the
right thing by per man So thank you, Adam, and
I'll go to Wrong for Convision. Make sure that you
tune into Wrong for Convisions podcasts and hear about all
of the cases and the people have been wrongfully convicted.
We're gonna start out with Pierre. We're gonna move that
a line and get all of them up.

Speaker 2 (01:00:45):
Absolutely. Thank you so much, Jason flaum I hope you
enjoy that very informantive interview with Jason Flauhm. It is
justice for per Russian all day, and we want you
to join us in our efforts at Until Freedom Out
Organization to ensure that we continue to lift that we

(01:01:07):
continue to lift per Russian's name and force the system
to work as it is supposed to in his faith.

Speaker 1 (01:01:14):
That's right, because they quickly lock you up, but they
take them hello long to let you out when them
so that brings me to my I don't get it.
And over the last few weeks, you know, the internet
has been going a lot crazy. A lot of people
I know have been having these real crazy conversations especially
men from the holiday as we call. And there's been

(01:01:37):
like the high about Beef said, what's disrespecting Who's ego?
And all these things, and the conversation always leads to
some level olds where the quote unquote is crashing out
and there's a lot of people celebrating this crasher right.
And I think as I got older and wiser, you know,

(01:01:58):
I see things from a completely different less. I was
in the school giving a presentation to these young kids,
I think they were knife and tenth graders and were
I showed them my what kyp of Black Verder video.
We having a real deep discussion about it. If we
haven't seen that, go to right Intube channel and watch that.
But we're having a discussion about it. And they was

(01:02:19):
like they loved the video or we're just having dialogue.
And I was like, and Angelo was there, Angelo Pinto,
you know, one of the core founders, and he asks
the kids, what do you think are things that lead
to vibes? And kids stood up and he was like,
you know, because you know, you got to prove to

(01:02:41):
people that you ain't scared and you ain't soft, you know,
so when something happens and you get mad with somebody,
you got to show them that you're not soft. And
I was listening to that. Then I was listening to
the internet with you know, a couple of people that
I knew, we haven't interviews and they and they married.
That same conversation people that's in the late twenties and thirties,

(01:03:03):
and the common theme is that over this perceived ego
and it's perceived having to prove that you're not soft
or that you're not scared. That they were willing to
completely crash out like jeopardize everything, crash like jeopardize everything. Like.
There was an dialogue about young Jeezi and Gucci Man,

(01:03:27):
and you know, Gucci Man I said something about his
friend who died and he was saying and it was
just with azy friend during their verses, and the way
the world was split was confusing to right. I listened
to JZ and JEZI was a grown man. They said, basically,
I'm not even gonna get into that because the reality

(01:03:48):
is people watching us up here. These kids are trying
to figure out how they saw conflict and I'm not
gonna feed into what you're trying to do, right, And
some people thought that that meant he was soft right,
because he wasn't willing to completely drow his whole life
away on a moment in one of the biggest stages
he's been in the law, and he had an opportunity
to teach and do something that was growing. It was

(01:04:09):
people that perceived that as soft. There was people that
were saying that they would throw everything away at that
omen to show somebody that they was tough and perceive
toughness and perceived ego you will. It's so many people
in prison. I did time in prison, that so many
people who had taken that same mentality that drew life.

(01:04:31):
If every one of them says if they could change,
they wouldn't. It did. So my thing is, why do
we go down an alley that everybody who went down
that same alley is saying, it ain't nothing down there
but death, and we're willing to see fuck that. I'm
gonna show you that I'm tough. I'm gonna keep going

(01:04:53):
doing the same thing that they ain't never get nobody
nowhere before. But I'm gonna die tough and I'm gonna
lead my family. I'll do all this shit because I
need you to know that I'm not scared or my
ego is big, and I'm not scared of you, and
and I'm willing to crash out and that shit really,
Like I've really been pondering that in my head for

(01:05:15):
the last few days because I hear these conversations, and
I also remember when I was young and I had
those conversation and then we really and then the thing
is it only in our culture, because I don't see
it in no other culture, Like we're willing to die
a shit that don't matter, Like we're willing to die
with shit that really don't matter about what somebody thinks
about me or what somebody says to me. How can

(01:05:37):
I give you law control over my life that if
you can say something that could force me to give
up our freedom in my life, then I'm not even
in controlling me. So I really want you to understand
that I don't get at this point in my life.
I don't know how I rationalize it as a young

(01:05:58):
kid that as a young kid, do you think as
a young kid, right, But it's this is something that's
celebrated in our culture that's detrimental. And I would give
one one example, and I'm leaving though it's going to
my page on our Esseagram page. It's they're having an
interview and it's a kid from Chicago talking about some
people that's died and the hit opping and the beef

(01:06:19):
that's supposedly big gang members. And the dude is like,
they need to be slide, they need to get some guns,
they need to go ride on people who did that.
And dudes like, why are you telling these kids that
dumb shit? The people are listening to you, and you
infest in that dumb shit into kids. That dude, shitn't
goes slide. He should be hold with his family. He
got kids, His baby mother is already dead half all

(01:06:42):
of his friends. Is there you telling him to go
through the same destructive shit that already got everybody else killed.
That shit ain't smart? Ain't ain't cool about that? That
if you tell them the slide, my grandmothers in them streets.
Will you're telling them the slide my kids is in
them streets. So when you they slide and they hit
the wrong person like they always do, you is possible
for that, you know? So it's like I want us

(01:07:04):
to really start thinking. And that's like I think the
emotional intelligence and the lack of thinking in our in
this culture right now is really leading to our ditricent
and you know, and I just want us to really
just take the time, take two seconds before you allow
your emotions to supersedes your intelligence, before you throw your
full life into a fucking dumpster because somebody said something

(01:07:27):
to you that you did.

Speaker 2 (01:07:29):
I think that is a perfect way to end our shaw.
Fore today, I would say that in order to understand
where we are, you have to know where we've been,
and to know that we are people who were captured, enslaved,
and trafficked and then enslaved again on American soil where

(01:07:52):
our men did not have power to protect the community,
to protect their wives and their children. That mindset has
in a lot of ways developed and sort of stem
from there. That you know, I'm never going to allow
anybody to demonize me or to do these things again.
And we just have to retrain the ways of which

(01:08:15):
we use it because we only really have the power
to inflict pain on our own and I think that
has a lot to do with this. So as we
are here teaching young people, we need to make sure
that we bring the history to them so they can learn.
That's why we keep pushing You gotta go see the
movie Origin. It's probably on some streaming network. Find now,

(01:08:37):
go get it and watch it, because in that movie,
you get a chance to learn how we have been demonized,
how so many communities have been demonized. But once you
understand it, then you will know more about why we
react to things we need.

Speaker 1 (01:08:51):
And I agree. I just want to say one thing.
There are certain things that I will to give my
life to protect my fam tech people out of love
to you know. Those are things that I believe are
audible things that you say. Okay, I'm willing to completely
crash up to make sure that the people I love
are say but not for my egos because you said something,

(01:09:12):
not because you said words for me to protect myself,
protect my family. Yeah, those are things that that as
then we're supposed to put our our you know selves
on the front line for. But over like jay Z said,
don't die with the block we and Mama lived that
you don't own. Don't die over the gang, the gang
beef that you was even born for when he got here, Like,

(01:09:33):
let's not die over ship. That don't make sense, Like
because when you when you lose your life trying to
protect your ego, who's singing kid and people that use
a books and with that said, brings us to episode.
With that said, it brings us to the end of
another episode information I'm not gonna always be right to me,

(01:09:58):
It's not gonna always be wrong. Both always would be
always be all.

Speaker 2 (01:10:03):
There, peace y'all.

Speaker 1 (01:10:05):
There is so yoni, there so yoni.

Speaker 3 (01:10:08):
There's so yoni.

Speaker 1 (01:10:13):
There's shore going through video.

Speaker 2 (01:10:15):
Bulbrics TMO every single Wednesday on iwomen dot tv.

Speaker 1 (01:10:20):
That's