April 23, 2024 • 55 mins
We are joined by Dr. Keiki Kawaiʻaeʻa, Interim Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs and former director of Ka Haka ‘Ula O Ke‘elikōlani College of Hawaiian Language at the University of Hawaiʻi at Hilo. She shares her language journey, and then we talk about the elements that may have made the Hawaiian language movement successful. We also talk about strategies and trying to determine when you decolonize existing systems and when you create your own pathways within those systems, and how to move from teaching about, to teaching of, to teaching through Indigenous languages. Dr. Keiki also shares her views on how to create and maintain safe environments for language learning and to not give up when things are difficult. Learn more about Hawaiian language programs at www.olelo.hawaii.edu, www.ahapunanaleo.org, and www.nawahi.org.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
Okay, they tried to colonizzs, tried to genocide, yet we're
still here with the Tongue on broke.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
And kadanj to cut you on yai Yah A.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
T was.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Yeah teen where Kyran Jenny Joy welcome folks to the
Tongue Unbroken. This is our second to last episode of
the season. And as things go, things have gotten a
little chaotic on my and we have some guests who
(01:02):
thought they would come and then thought it wouldn't and then,
as luck would have it, Kiki Kova, who was an
amazing mentor of mine and an incredible person, called me
yesterday while I was shopping for parts for my boat
and we were talking about a project, and I said, yes,
I would love to do this project, and I would
(01:22):
love to have you on a podcast because you are
so amazing. So I feel like things have aligned. But
now that we're recording my audio, gears is going kind
of crazy, like those sounds aren't nothing is going where
it's supposed to be. But this just means we're in
some trickster territory towards the end of our second season here.
But I am so excited to have this conversation with Kiki.
(01:44):
Today she is doing incredible things for languages all across
the world and of centered in a e And so
when I met Kiki, she was the basically the dean,
the director of Kahako ula O k Iliki Lani where
I was a student, and I would come and talk
to her about project ideas and dissertation ideas and how
(02:08):
to keep going. And then after I graduated, we would
stay in touch as we brought her to Alaska to
come and talk with us about languages just before COVID
sort of hit. And then we've been in touch about
national projects and initiatives, sometimes testifying to the United States
Congress through various committees about things that are needed, and
(02:32):
then sometimes about grant projects and things that reach across
the world and try to unite language reclamation movements. So
for starters, Kiki, could you talk about who you are
and what you do and what led you to work
in languages?
Speaker 4 (02:51):
Bill Ika Nana mahalaka huy ana, make me man aloha everybody.
I'm Keiki kava and who am I? I think I'd
like to start where my beginnings are, and that is
(03:14):
where my aina is. And I am the granddaughter of
two native speakers, where my my aloha, my love and
passion for Hawaiian language, I think was planted they for
our family was our last speaking generation, and I think
being the eldest of all of the mopuna, all of
(03:36):
the grandchildren, I had the kuli another responsibility and the
privilege at the same time to hang with the old folks,
and I think something just went in me that just
kind of built aloha for the language. And I'd say,
first of all, that's what I am. I am a
person that loves my language. I'm a parent that raised
(03:59):
her children, my husband and I with ole Lahavai as
their first language. Were just some very fortunate circumstances that
our family had to be able to do that at
a time where people were not doing I think there
were outside of the nie Hell community. I think there
were five or six families that's all that I know
(04:21):
of that we're doing the same thing, and all second
language speakers across the state. And so it's just amazing
how the kind of synergy that happened that kind of
brought us together, that made it a possibility to take
what we were doing at home and putting it in
an educational setting where our children were able to be
(04:44):
schooled through Hawaiian media education and graduate through Hawaiian media education.
And now I have my puna my grandchildren in Hawaiian
media education. So I would definitely say a huge part
of my identity is grounded in my language. My family's
from the island of Maui. My grandmother is from Molokai.
(05:05):
So if anybody's listening on this podcast from them ala
on nu ya Oko in my professional work, you're right.
I previously set down last year in August from the
director position of cahako Ula Elikolani. There's a Hawaiian language
college here at yue Chilo, so I stepped down from
that position, of which was very very difficult because that's
(05:28):
my passion era, but to help my larger campus. So
currently I'm sitting in an interim vice chancellor of Academic
Affairs position. What's really interesting is as all of our
struggles have fruited different kinds of things, one of the
things that has done is it's offered some different ways
of thinking about learning, about education, about the impact of
(05:52):
what we do, and the solutions for that that actually
have been in assistance to higher education have been in
assistance sense to lower education. We see that in our
state with what they're doing with trying to I'm going
to call it Hawaii based education, really trying to base
our children more as much in different percentages Hawaiian medium.
(06:14):
That's really clear, but even in mainstream education in our
Department of Education, even trying to put more Hawaiian into
the education processes of the students. So I think that
has come from our work across the state in the
last forty years. It's kind of shifted how we kind
of think about education and the value of language is
(06:38):
one of those strategies that enhances the genius in our children.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Hikayla, I'm going to change for all of your work
climbing up into these academic realms of Vice Chancellor. It's
really incredible and impactful, especially when we have indigenous people
in those positions and indigenous peoples who can speak our
languages in those Because transforming educational systems is such incredible work,
(07:05):
there's always so much work to do. These systems are
incredibly colonial by nature, and so some of the work
that we do is pushing back on these systems. The
work that we do is forging new paths within those systems.
So one of the things I think about a lot
is all around the world, there's a lot of people
who have really tried to bring their languages back to
(07:26):
a place of strength. And Hawaiian at one point was
down to enough speakers that you could count them, and
now it's up to a level where you can't count
the number of Hawaiian speakers that there are. It's reaching
this level of getting into tens of thousands of people,
which is incredible, but still sometimes you could say, okay,
well that's still like barely ten percent of our people
(07:47):
or whatever. But it's undoubtedly a very successful language movement,
and it's a model for the world. And as you said,
like that, Kuliana, that responsibility to help others is something
that I've always seen and felt when I've gone to
Hawaii and worked with people there. But how did it work?
Because there's lots of other people in other places who
(08:08):
wanted to revitalize their language or want to, But it
seems like there were some things that really aligned or
worked out to get to this point where you have
thousands of speakers now, and no indigenous language is ever safe,
but Hawaiian is certainly on this path of incredible growth
and how did that work when maybe it didn't work
in other places.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
That's a really really good question. It's a bit of magic,
isn't it. But I think at the foundation of what
we did, I really can't speak for others and their experience,
but I can tell you some of the things that
I think were essential components to our ability to do
what we've done. I think one is that it started
(08:51):
in the home and so really moving oleloi back into
normalizing the language within the home, and then having the
school to hold hands with what was happening at home.
So really we were creating small communities. You know, when
children are small, the community circles are smaller home. It's
(09:14):
places in your community where the family visits the schools.
We try to kind of create that as sacred language
spaces as best as we can so, and that's easier
said than done. In fact, it's really really difficult. It's
really difficult when you are a first language speaker of
another language trying to raise your children in your native language.
(09:36):
It means that you've got to deal with vocabulary that
you know, you don't think about until you come up
to it. Ways of bringing our language into current our
current lives. And you know, we know that all living
languages have new vocabulary. It's one of the signs of
a vibrant language is that it has new vocabulary all
(09:56):
the time. I mean sometimes we don't think about that
in English, but you think about all the things that
we have in technology that there weren't words for two years,
four years, five years ago. And in order to live
in this world with our children, we have to figure
out a way to still maintain our Hawaiian way of thinking,
but articulate that to the language of a current day contexts.
(10:21):
So I want to say the leading families that were involved,
those five or six families, really through the punan Alo
and opening up the preschool, gave us a place to
bring our children together, gave us a place to bring
our families together. So it was really es central that
piece for that. I don't know if it would have
(10:41):
been the same result without having places to connect families,
because we are all living in different places, living in
different islands. So those on each of these islands started
to create small circles of family language communities. And really
with young children, it's not as hard as it is
(11:04):
when you're older. So we stuck to our vision and
our goal, and I think that's key to remember. So
that's another element. It's being good examples for they're speaking
no matter how fabulous or awkward the language with the
message was that Hawaiian holelohova was important to us. It
was a value that we shared in our family and
(11:26):
we practiced. It was one that our children saw with
other families. They played together, we worked together. So just
that small group kind of was able to build that synergy.
I think that was really important to use education as
one of our major strategies for reviting a language, and
as we are renormalizing language in our homes. Those two things,
(11:50):
I think is what's moved a lot of things. And
the fact that there's something about the commitment of revitalizing
your language with your own children. Let me say that again,
with your own children that keep you on that pathway
because anything you screw up on that, you screwed up
on that with your own children. And so I think
(12:12):
that just kind of kept us moving along and along
those ways, we're developing skills that I think we wouldn't
have developed otherwise. You know, we had to go to
the legislature, we had to open schools, we had to
figure out what to do with the curriculum. I mean
from just the simple stuff that happens in the playground
(12:32):
to some really complicated things that would not have been
I think in it's sort of people's usual lives, the
usual family lives, So family Ohana, renormalizing and education. I
think that's been the recipe for us because everybody place
around we had to shift mindsets. You know, in between
(12:53):
that we still let people saying to us are they
going to succeed? You know, how are they going to
succeed in life? You know, and those days we don't
know as much as we know now about the power
of language that it actually accelerates the brain power to
know multiple languages. You know, we're so United States in general,
(13:14):
with so much more focused on being on monolingual country,
even with all the many many languages that we have
in our country, not really recognizing the power that language
has to increase our brain power. So lots of learning
for our own brain power as parents and keeping us
on that pathway with our children. That was a very long,
(13:35):
lengthy answer.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Sorry about that, Mikelo. It's amazing because I think about
this stuff all the time, because if we go back
fifteen years ago. I had a teacher and mentor who
was raising her children in French, and I remember just
watching that and thinking about could that work because her
husband spoke English. And then I had another friend who
(13:56):
was raising her child in Spanish and then her husband
spoke English, and I would watch them and I thought
maybe I could, maybe we could do that. And so
when my wife and I had our first baby, we
sort of had this agreement that we would try this
one parent, one language model that we had sort of
read about and had actually witnessed. And then when the
baby was born, though, like, it's such a wonderful idea,
(14:18):
but when you're sitting there looking at a baby and
you're trying to raise them, and just as far as
becoming a parent, I remember one time because in Hawaii
and I had a thought and I asked a friend.
I said, hey, how'd you learn how to swim? He said, oh,
my dad brought me out a boat on the ocean.
He just threw me in the water and he said,
swim back to the boat. And it's like, okay, that's
sort of like parenthood, and that's sort of like language learning.
(14:39):
Sometimes is this sort of you're just got to get
thrown in. But as I sort of figured out, there's
so much stuff that as a classroom language. Think it
was kind of a classroom language at that time, and
so what we hadn't sort of figured out is all
the things we need to do to make it a
language of daily use. And so there was a group
of us who were learning how to speak, and we
(15:00):
had kids, and we tried to commit to speaking, cling
it to our children. And there's a few tough things.
I think one is a lot of people who try
that say, oh, well, I got to tell you something
really important, so let me tell you in English to
make sure you understand. And I think that's sort of
a tragic flaw because you have to whatever language you
communicate in, you could still communicate important stuff. And so
(15:22):
there's a danger if you switch to English to say, well,
let me tell you these things that you understand, whereas
if you can really stick it out and say I
believe I can explain this to them, and I believe
they can understand it, and then they'll have this cultural
understanding of it as well. So I think that was
one thing. Another thing that was really tough is when
people came around us who didn't speak cling it, and
so I think sometimes you'd feel polite to switch over
(15:45):
to English and speak English to your child, or with
a one parent, one language model, sometimes one parent would say,
well what does that mean?
Speaker 3 (15:53):
What is that? What is that?
Speaker 2 (15:54):
And I actually had to have a conversation with my
wife and say, hey, I love you, I want you
to be involved in all of this stuff, but you
can't ask me to translate everything in front of the baby.
I could tell you later, you know. And so we
had to sort of get to these agreements, and my
wife's fluency went way up because of that. And so
as we sort of commit to that. I think the
other thing that I noticed in Hawaii is a commitment
(16:16):
to language use. And so, for example, this requires some
adjusting of relationships and how relationships work. So if two
people are friends and they both start studying a new language,
if they want to become speakers of that language, they
should speak to each other in that language. And so
one thing I noticed in Hawaii is when I was
learning Hawaiian, once people found out about it, who were
(16:39):
involved with the movement at all, they would be really
excited to come talk to me in Hawaii, like I
could see it in their eyes when they're walking towards me.
I was like, oh, no, here they come to talk
to me, you know. But it's also that's what languages need,
is they need a commitment of use, and then they
need to pull you into those areas of use and
be patient and understanding. And so those were all things
(16:59):
that I saw while I was over there. And I
remember one time, just to address the last point that
you also made. Someone once as I was proposing these ideas,
they said, well, education is the thing that took your
language away. Why would you use that as the thing
to bring it back? And I said, oh, I've never
seen a language movement that has been successful that didn't
(17:19):
take control of its own education and say, okay, we're
going to educate children, of course, but we need to
have an option to do that entirely in our language.
And so that's where I think you see strength. But
it takes a lot to be able to build up
your capacity to do it. But also I think one
thing that we learned talking with Larry Kimura was we
brought him over here and everyone kept saying, well, we're
(17:40):
going to wait till we get the money, and we're
gonna wait till we get the curriculum, and I go,
we're gonna wait till we get the teachers, and he
stopped people and he says, you can't just wait for
everything to line up. You have to just go for it.
You have to go, and then you start to construct
those things along the way, which is I think a
colonial trick that gets us stalled out is to make
(18:00):
us feel like we're not ready. When you know, I
think and thing it that's gook kanaak. It doesn't matter
if you're not ready, you just gotta go. And then
but to go and be in these collaborative atmospheres, those
are the things like some of the folks here say,
we can't do what Hawaii does. We're not we're not them,
we don't want to be them. And I say, well,
(18:21):
we're not trying to be them. We're trying to look
at what they did and replicate it because it's a
successful model and it's something that we can do, but
it's going to take tons of effort and transformation. And
then I try to remind people when you go to
Hawaii and if you go see the ahao and you
see Navaji and you seekahaka ula okay, Lika Lani. Just
remember you're looking potentially thirty years into our future and
(18:44):
you have to envision like the steps to get there.
So I appreciate everything that you've shared so far. We're
going to take a short break and we're going to
come right back. I'm so excited to be here with Kiki,
and I'm so thankful you could carve an hour out
of your day to do this. Mahallo you Sho.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
Will be right back.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
And then the couple people want, people want me, I'll
get my al and no righta mad how gay.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Right?
Speaker 3 (19:33):
Let me get how way.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
Why oh my.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
My my go wan gym my field, wh by my hockey? Hi?
Yeah why final mino? Hi you m h.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
To art Just look at you, hon. We're back, folks.
We're having some fun technical issues here. So so today
I guess we're just recording with Raven. So we're getting
some tricks your treatment, so Maui treatment, and so Malia Klau,
(21:03):
Raven Woijin you havesat So Maui and Raven are just
having a little conversation. So we had to pause and
sort of fix some things. But we are back and
I'm excited. One of my uncles one time said my
gratitude killed me, which is a very fun way foring
it to be dramatic and thankful at the same time.
So we're back with Kiki Kave and one of the
(21:25):
questions that I have for you, which is another big
question but also sort of generalizing a little bit. When
you're doing this work in language reclamation and education, how
do you know when to indigenize something that's there and
when to create your own path so that you can
just have your own thing. So when do you fix
(21:45):
the colonizer's stuff and when do you make your own path?
Within those sort of frameworks.
Speaker 4 (21:50):
The first thing is you have to figure out where
you're going, and it's not clear. There's not like a
recipe or book that you follow, but there are some
basic things that you know have to happen. One is,
when you commit to doing this, you've got to ensure
that there's space to continue that. So for schooling, for example,
we sort of went in as a pilot in kindergarten,
(22:13):
and the first class was actually a kindergarten first grade class,
a total pilot. We had no promise that it would
even be there the following year. So as each of
these barriers come up, you have to be willing to
address them with what that takes. So that started a
lot of work at the legislature, you know, taking our
(22:34):
children to the legislature, educating them about that, going to
the Board of Education meetings, educating them about that and
what we're doing. And the fact probably that they were
our children. The risk was a parental risk, and they
were actually supporting families, so they took that risk with
us because it wasn't like a department policy decision that
(22:58):
they made that affected impacted families who maybe wanted or
wanted we were in hundred percent, But just say it again,
you have to try and step stay a few steps
ahead and project what might be coming ahead so when
they get there, we're not stumped. And when it happens
(23:18):
that we are stumped, we have to be ready to
give our peace, you know, to explain what it is
and why it is we're doing, and you know, you
just sort of have to be ready for the unimaginable.
I'm just going to say that because we really didn't know,
but the fact that we had other families with us
that were doing the same thing kind of gave us
(23:39):
a lot of courage to do that, as well as
having our children to take with us, because they were
the proof that it was possible and they were our
joy that it was happening. So even more so it
kind of I'm when I say, kicked you in the butt,
so to speak to ke, keep going, you know, and
looking at the new things that we needed to look
at another grade, more issue with curriculum, not ever having
(24:02):
enough money, so rethinking how we're going to do things differently,
and that got us to think about did we even
like the curriculum that our children were getting in our schools?
You know, how can we make better connections about that
because we had to create the stuff anyway, Just taking
vendor curriculum was a really big thing. Then taking prescribed
curriculum was very much trendy at that time. That doesn't
(24:26):
work for us, you know. Taking basil readers, that was
a big thing in the eighties. You take a basil
reader and you translated. We started with that because we thought, okay,
that's something we could kind of work with really quick,
and we discovered within the first six months that we
can't do this because basil readers were written for English
and when you translated you're not developing Hawaiian. So we
(24:48):
had to go and look for others. So whole language
came and a pattern readers came in. I mean just
kind of one thing rolled into another, and we were
just you have to be ready to do the whole
thing and not be afraid of it. And it sounds scary,
but it really is quite exciting. It really is quite exciting,
and you have others to do it with you. And
(25:09):
it doesn't take a whole lot. It takes the power
and the magic of families being committed to that and
working together towards that and just.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
Do what you got to do.
Speaker 4 (25:18):
So to be honest, that's exactly what we did because
nobody had done that before. So, I mean, my cousins
had some, but they had lots of financial government support.
We didn't have any of that. So you learn to
write grants now you want to do all kinds of things.
And the other thing is there were strengths that families had,
you know, some were really good at the fundraising thing,
(25:41):
you know, and organizing that, and that's the thing they took.
You know. Some like my area actually is in curriculum,
so that's an area that I can so we also
honed in on the talents that we had to assist.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
With the movement at Lincoln is cheese. Yeah, And so
thinking about those roles, like, I wonder about that stuff too,
because I think it's good for people to see this
in little, manageable pieces, like you were saying, you build
a language nest, which is a preschool, then you build
a kindergarten next year, build a first grade. So I
think some people might look at these huge language schools
(26:16):
and think, how do I do all of that right now?
And I don't think you can, but if you can
stage it, say, Okay, a thirteen year plan is to
go one year at a time, build this thing and
have this group of kids, And it's really unfortunate for
the kids who are in school right now, who are
maybe in tenth grade, eleventh grade, twelfth grade. And it's
not saying we don't care about you, and we can
do what we can to reach the folks who are
(26:38):
already in schools, but to build this whole new system
I think is really transformational. And so when you folks
were doing that, was there conscious conversations about Okay, who's
going to go develop the curriculum, Who's going to go
get the money, who's going to manage the money, who's
going to become the teacher of the teachers, who's going
to produce this type of thing and that type of thing,
(26:59):
Because because I think that's the other thing too, it
takes a lot of coordination to say, Okay, we can't
have this small group of people doing everything, but you
can have this small group of people doing these things
that they can manage, and then these things collectively build
on this big thing. So what was the process like
in terms of coordinating some of that stuff, like who
would become the principal, who would become the lead teacher.
(27:21):
How did those conversations go about That's.
Speaker 4 (27:24):
Really you know, I have to think about that because
I think that we had conversations about that, and sometimes
very strategic. But there were understandings amongst us. I think
that we just understood and took to heart. You know,
those that had certain strengths were that's what they had
to contribute, I mean, and if they didn't there were
(27:46):
impacts on that. For example, those of us that had
strengths with language and curriculum not contributing that would mean
the less quality and the more of the struggle with
curriculum that we be taught in schools. You know, if
we didn't have those families that were good and fundraising,
we probably would have had certain things to bring into
our schools. So I think people kind of knew that
(28:09):
everybody's skills and talents was critical to the mission and
was important to the mission and it's work of passion.
So you kind of have to know where you are
in that larger picture, and people shouldn't have to ask
you what you know you need to do. So there
were sometimes conversations as we were planning, like going to
look for where we would move the middle school the
(28:32):
high school section after we as we were going into
we were in public education now and we were still piloting,
and our students were going our children were going into
middle school and then to high school. Well, they can't
stay at the elementary school anymore. So we had to
kind of stay a little head ahead of them. So
(28:52):
just in case the answer came, we have no place
for your children, we had answers for that, you know,
so we'd get in a car and go drive around
look at places that were possible. So our children from
elementary ended up in the third floor of the unemployment building,
and the Punanalo funded the payment for that so that
we could actually move to children because their other choice
(29:13):
was unacceptable to us. And then Nabahi opened up and
the whole politics of that to it to be able
to bid for the school and go to the Office
of Hawaiian Affairs and to actually get a grant to
pay for the school. It was you just have to
stay like a bit ahead of that as families. But
on the other end, punan Aleo was growing as an organization.
(29:35):
Its schools was growing, They were getting better at knowing
what they were doing. Emersion schools were also growing, so
that organization, that structure in public education was growing. The
university also was relooking at what they're doing because they
hadn't been really successful by teaching I call it I
called teaching of languages and about of and through strategy.
(29:57):
So sometimes you want to learn about the language you know,
you kind of take for us would be equal to
like a one o one. You want to kind of
know how to pronounce Hawaiian, have a basic conversation. But
your goal really is that is to appreciate the beauty
of O La Lahavai. That's the about thing. We weren't
about that about thing. Then there's the O and most
(30:20):
that's what we do in schools, right, we teach of
the you know, of the language, you know, sort of
the science of the language. And so it's more like
an academic experience. The goal really isn't that at that
to revitalize a language. It's sort of people taking personal
gestures of learning the language, and you don't know what
happens with it after that. Right, then there's learning through
(30:40):
the language. That's a whole total commitment different. So that's
where our commitment was, is that everything we did we
had to try to do it through the language. So
when you take it, when you decide that strategy, just
all of the planning, you can barely stay ahead of it.
You just but that's what you do. You hone in
on everybody's strengths just to stay a tad bit ahead
(31:04):
of it. So for example, children need about three hundred
fifty three hundred and sixty books exposure a year if
they're learning to read. That's a lot of books to prepare.
You know, what are all the different ways There's no
way that you could in your mind be creating books,
translating that that much would take a whole assortment of people.
So those that spoke Kwahian started to translate. You know,
(31:27):
the university, those professors that had students at that level
started to create books. We started to bring parents as
we're doing teaching classes and I'm doing simple books. I mean,
you just got to figure out all these like strategies
that I don't think there was like a recipe, but
you got a problem, solve it real quick for the answers,
and things sort of just develop in that way. Sounds
(31:47):
a little disorganized, doesn't but it really was an organized mess.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Yeah what And I think it kind of has to
be that way. There was a Haida language learner here
who said he was calling like gorilla warfare tactics, where
you have these there's an idea of what we're all
trying to do, and it's pretty well orchestrated, but everyone's
going to have to go and operate without having to
always check back into the sort of as a group
(32:13):
and say, Okay, these things have to grow. They grow here,
they grow there, and the thing develops its own identity.
And I really appreciate what you're saying about about of
and through, which is a really wonderful approach for folks
to take, because I think if you get stuck in
any one area for too long, especially the first two,
then you'll have people who can know about the language
(32:34):
and tell you how it works, but they really just
have a hard time speaking it. And so for us,
we're really trying to move towards getting our folks talking
and unlocking some things and really getting them to think
in the language and to reach a state of flow,
which is very challenging like some of this stuff too,
because you're also decolonizing. Like I remember we did some
(32:55):
classes there with Tinekpungi and de Hoo and myself, and
we worked with Pila for probably eight hours a day
for about eight weeks, and we felt pretty okay with
how we're learning Hawaiian, and I think we're trying to
see how fast we could possibly learn it. And I'm
feeling pretty good. And then I walk into Navihi and
I'm in a first grade class, and this low boy
(33:16):
is trying to talk to me, the six year old,
and I was saying like, say it again, and say
it again, and say it again and say it again,
and about the twentieth time, I was like Okay, his
brother has the same laptop as me. You know, it
took me so long to sort of get that. But
just to see even those kids, they understand a lot
of people come through Navaji, a lot of people tour Ajuno,
but if you're there for more than a day, those
(33:37):
kids start to think, Okay, you must be Kawai and
if you're here, and they just talk to you. And
it was so neat to see that approach. And I
remember the last time I was in Hilo, we were
there for a language conference. I was excited to meet
this young man and I knew some of the language
work that he was doing, and so we were going
to sit and visit for a while. And I went
to go put my stuff in my hotel room and
(33:58):
I came back down and someone had come to just
sit down next to him, and he was this guy
that had recently moved to Hawaii. He was not a
Hawaiian guy, who was a holly guy. And I just
sort of was eavesdropping on the conversation. He was saying, Oh,
Hawaiian is so easy. You could learn it in like
two weeks. It's just got eleven sounds and it's just
it's such such an easy language, and so I leaned
in and I said, oh, you speak Hawaiian. It's exciting.
(34:21):
Let's let's speak some Hawaiian. Then he says, oh, I
don't know. I don't speak Kawhi. And I said, oh, well,
you're you're just talking about how easy the language is.
So you've got to know it in order to know that,
right and so, and I think he got really embarrassed.
But I think when you really get into the complexity
of languages and you get into that depth, like I remember,
that was one thing that I saw a lot in
(34:41):
Hawaii was that they were saying, go for the deep
sea fish, which I was really appreciating because some of
our scholars here, my auntie Nora Marx Dallenhouer his Linktt
name was Peirne, and her husband Kwai Richard Dowenhower, they
once said, well, we think Clingett will survive, but it's
going to be this very simple version of the language
(35:02):
because there's not enough of that depth. And so I
really appreciate what I saw over there that there was
always this push to get to the roots of the
language and to get to these deep level types of things,
which is so exciting, and I think the only way
to get there is through, you know. And so sometimes
we'll talk about something being difficult, and then sometimes people
(35:22):
will say, a tou nachyakkikut, You're just going to go
through it. And so as you build these programs, as
you build these immersion schools, it's important to remember that
that struggle is real and there are networks. So like
the Native American Language Resource Center, that's going to be
a nationwide thing, like that's an option. Looking at the
(35:42):
PhD program Inhilo, that's an option, looking at these ways
to tie ourselves to other languages, because I think the
decolonization part for me is something that takes a continual
reality check to say, Okay, we're going to do this,
we can do this, and we actually have to do
this because a lot of folks they kind of get
suck as you were saying, and they don't get over
(36:04):
that sort of there's just something that holds them back.
And I think the thing that usually holds them back
is something that's just a colonial mechanism designed to keep
them in place. So thinking about when you started, there
were few speakers, there was few learners, there was no money,
there was no curriculum, So where do people start.
Speaker 4 (36:24):
In terms of schooling, in terms of just generally where
they start?
Speaker 2 (36:28):
Yeah, maybe generally, Like let's say you've got a program
at the school and you've got people raising their kids
in the language. And then there was one guy I
was talking to and he said, don't start a preschool
and until you have an effective way to teach adults
or else you'll kill your language. And I remember I thought, gee,
mister negative. You know, because for me, I think about
(36:50):
this stuff like what to do next, because some of
our adults say, we don't want to do language nest
in a kindergarten, in a first grade fully in the language,
because we can't speak the language fully yet. But then mind,
I think, well, there's no place to speak the language,
so you have to create the school so that there's
a place to speak the language. So sometimes it feels
like there's just boundaries on all sides of us. And
(37:11):
so I guess the question maybe is a more focused
question would be how do you develop the mentality to say, Okay,
maybe we feel like we can't do this, but we're
just going to try because we have to.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
I think the first thing is your mentality and your
mindset is everything. It'll empower you or it will not.
So where do you begin? I think I mentioned it before.
I really think you begin with you can only begin
where you're at. You find a couple people that it's
you'll never have enough money, you'll never have all the
(37:44):
things that you need and your curriculum in place. Not
with an endangered language. You will never have that. It's endangered.
It's already on the time, it's already on the watch,
and every minute that you wait and put it aside
is a minute you lose your language. So you cannot wait.
You have to decide who's going to be the champions
of this and what ways are you going to invest
(38:05):
to do that? And you just got to dive in
and do it and things will show its way along
the way. I just it's just amazing how many people
don't speak Hawaiian but had Hawaiian in their families, native
Hawaiians and non native Hawaiians, because Hawaiian was once national language.
You know, when they talk about their own family, island
histories that have become great champions and supporters, you know
(38:27):
it was maybe wasn't even for them, but the language
calls to you, you know, and in the switch of
the mindset, it starts to call you and you just
got to answer it. And it sounds like, how am
I going to do this? Start simple? I say, you
start with the children. I still think that's the best
place you start in your home because it's really the
(38:48):
most demanding but the less threatening. Nobody's going to turn
around and say you use that a mark er wrong,
you know, and your cow coo sound wasn't in place.
Speaker 3 (38:58):
You know.
Speaker 4 (38:58):
Well, your children do eventually start to correct you, but
you know, it's a safer place to start in your home,
and you do what you have to do if you
have to put cards all around. I remember my when
I was in immersion. I helped to open up the
third immersion site, which was on the island of Muwi,
and the first thing I did was thought, think about
(39:18):
what are tools I can help families with because many
of these families have had in their family history similar
experiences like I did, but they didn't have the four
years of o La Lahavaii that I took at the university,
you know, so they were like taking community classes or
thinking about it and getting in site. So they need tools.
So I mean, I would do this word of the week,
(39:41):
and I carefully chose the words that would be words
that can be put in questions that had multiple answers.
And they had vocabulary cards that they taped all over
their house that they would be able to use at
home because the structure could be applied in home language
of language. So I tried to think of those creating
(40:02):
times that we spent outside of school. So even the
children at school were really part of a broader, larger family.
So you're starting to change how you do things, you know,
in your homes and your that becomes your small community.
And then as they're growing, Oh my goodness, maybe they
want to play soccer together. How are we going to
(40:23):
do that? So our father says, oh, I know how
to play soccer and I can speak a little ole la,
and somebody else says, well, I'll come and help you
with that, and I'll be the one that organizes the games,
and you know, and just trying to find every opportunity
as much as possible to oleloi in a manava po
manava hiapo, which means to speak Kawaiian as much as
(40:45):
you can and as many places as you can, and
that be the guiding rule, and then what supports that
is to be the change agent of the goal you seek.
You know, so those two things just get people to
rally a little bit differently and things just sort of
have their own dynamics around that. And it sounds difficult,
but it actually was lots of fun. I mean, our
(41:06):
kids have the friendships that they've had now that they
are parents with high school children and graduating out of
high school, their bonds have just been amazing friendships where
you can really see that they feel part of this
larger ohana because they're also doing that with their children
and across with each other's children. So you just don't know,
(41:28):
you have to kind of stick to some of those
simple strategies and those hold those high and true, high
and true. I'm just say that you have to hold
them high and true that they become your guiding light,
not necessarily the individual, but the larger idea that you
all value and believe can happen. And if you believe
hard enough, actually it starts to happen.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Mike Y Mike kay LAA be the change agent, folks.
You can do it. And I think you have to
just keep going and you have to don't make yourself
start over. You just have to sort of build on
this momentum. Believe in yourself, believe in each other, hold
each other up, and we're gonna take our second break
and we'll be right back. Good jeeesh mhullo. Book day,
(44:15):
got cow to hit to cut you on Welcome back, folks.
So as we wrap up this conversation, there was a
couple of things I was thinking of that I'd like
to sort of talk to you about Kiki. And You're
just so amazing, You're so wonderful. Every time I talk
to you, I'm inspired and I learn, and I feel
like we're supposed to know each other. So I guess,
what are your strategic approaches for these two sort of populations.
(44:39):
One is a kiki, a child who comes into a
language nest and maybe is not from a Hawaiian speaking home,
So how do you get that child to sort of
feel okay and feel comfortable and be willing to sort
of talk. And then what do you do with an
adult who comes in who also might not know the
language and is maybe nervous or scared, And how do
(45:01):
you sort of create these safe spaces for those two groups?
So that they can feel okay, they could feel at home,
and they could start to listen and they could start
to speak.
Speaker 4 (45:11):
So the key is safe and feeling safe in a
language environment and feeling embraced in a language environment. That's
really the key. So effort counts, willingness counts. In a
safe environment, nobody needs to be fluent. Sometimes you work
around strategies to help make that place feel safe, like
(45:32):
it doesn't matter whether it's children or adults. You know,
when they're having a difficulty, you can role model that language.
Lots of sort of nonverbal communication happening as you're doing that,
and repeating the language that they would need to say,
and just even if it comes in as words and
short sentence praises and sentences, you just kind of work
(45:55):
to build their confidence to be in that language immersed environment.
Because when you're a confident, you also feel safer. It's
not as threatening. So whatever you need to do to
help build that confidence, and you need to be a
little bit patient, but remembering that if they are committed
to that, everybody has a little bit different learning aptitude
(46:17):
that may be a little bit different, you know, so
everybody is not the same. So part of it is
creating contexts where languages can thrive. So there's a really
big difference, for example, of giving a lecture to students
about osmosis and talking about that in Hawaiian and going
over everybody's heads because they don't have the vocabulary for
(46:39):
the complexity of that language that that concept would have
from taking them outside or doing kind of hands on
things with them, observing change because we have lots of
rainbows in our clouds, and so there's ways that you
could kind of look and talk about that and bringing
them into that experience with the wealth of the language
(47:00):
that starts to create a safe space. I don't see
that adults are that much different than children, to tell
you the truth. In fact, I think children are much
more straightforward. If they have a hard time, you know what,
adults will try and I'm going to say, be patient
around it, sometimes kind of fake around it if they can.
(47:20):
Children are so block honest. But a lot of those
strategies that you use with children actually really work with
new speakers. And that's what we're talking about, is bringing
new speakers into the environment, right and then bringing them
into our homes, just our gatherings, whether it's to the
beach or picnic, and just giving them more time and
(47:40):
space in the language is really important because you only
get better at language when you're in the language. So
as least as you can make it, I think as
an academic language for those coming into it is a
safe space to bring them into it, and useful kinds
of language and context makes it helps to build that
confidence as well, you know. And then there is the
(48:03):
complexity of language, you know, starting with more simple kinds
of patterns that become complex more complex as they learn.
You use all of those as well. So we've done
all of that.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
Ruhulo, And I know you're very busy, and so I
need to let you go, but I do have one
more question for you, which is just when I talk
to folks that I really admire, I always think of
like big questions, like, oh, here's the big question, And
so I don't know if this is really one of those.
But as you sort of start to do this work,
(48:36):
and it's transformational forging new paths, it's also restoring languages
and reconnecting people to their languages, and it's all big work,
and it's all hard work, and it's all just monumental
type of stuff. But sometimes under that pressure, the group
that's doing the work can sometimes take it out on
each other a little bit, or there's there's always the
(48:57):
risk that the group will explode or implode. So the
question is how do you sort of keep the group
unified and together when sometimes there's not agreement on what
to do, or sometimes there's a lot of pressure. And
sometimes when there's pressure, it's easier to just take it
out on someone else than to sort of buckle down
and do the thing. So how do you keep the
(49:18):
band from breaking up?
Speaker 4 (49:19):
There are a couple of basic things that I find.
One thing because the work is hard, so there has
to be times where there's joy in the work. Joy
is really sometimes we don't realize how important it is
to be joyful in the language and to create those
kind of experience. I mean, even if you gather together
and the job is just to sing music together and
(49:39):
eat together and laugh together. You know, joy helps us
with our patients when times are hard, because we know
we know what the times, we know what the hard
times are like and the stress of that. But what
keeps you together is also having those joyful times that
keep the bond and the reminder of why you're doing
what you're doing with that. There are a couple of
things things that I kind of use that have actually
(50:03):
helped me in life, and it's definitely helped me in
my work with La alohava E. And that's two things.
One is that everything that you do, you must as
best as possible greet it with aloha. It's really hard
to be in an aloha space, a kind, loving, nurturing
space as much. And that's about intention, because sometimes it's
(50:27):
not all as possible to be in those spays, but
your attention when it comes from an aloha space curbs
some of the rough edges, so to greet all the
things that you want to do with aloha. The second
is is to have courage. Things don't change. New things
don't happen with people having the courage to be okay
to try things that they may not have done before.
(50:50):
But you know that something right in the center of
your gut, in your not out, is the right thing
to do, you know. I mean sometimes I could feel
my grandparents with me. I can feel their joy sometimes
when times got hard, I can feel them saying, you're
making it right for us, you know, during the times
where they language is being lost and all of those
(51:11):
colonial experiences that were very very painful for them. In
some ways, by doing that through our children, do we
make it right for them? You know? So I find
some of those strategies of whatever that is for you
or for your listeners, that helps you with your courage. Also,
the two things really that has helped to guide me
and I and the last I talked about earlier, is
(51:33):
to have something in your group collectively that you value
in a higher place than yourself, because the self sometimes
trips everybody up. You know, the egos come in place,
you know, my manao, My thoughts is I got a
better strategy to somebody else? You want to neutralize it.
There's got to be something that is important. And what
(51:54):
has been important for us is to normalize our language
as our home language and to give that gift that
was important to us to our children. So that becomes
that kind of guided beacon in which everybody gravitates. Harder
said than done, but it really helped us to move
because there definitely are going to be people with strong
(52:17):
personalities and you're going to have your leaders and your
followers with the truth is that everybody has potential to
lead within the strength that they possess, and we have
to be able to recognize those strengths and to step
back at those times and to help support those leaders
in the areas that their strengths. And sometimes we got
to be okay with laying out all of our ideas
(52:40):
and strategizing what's the best thing to do and having
those hard conversations. And sometimes you leave a little bit
beaten up by those discussions, but you cannot help but
have that experience because our languages are in those places.
Because if generations are being beaten up, and I'm talking
about physically, emotionally, psychologically, so we actually are churning that
(53:03):
time to make it a better place for our children
and our language. And that doesn't happen by itself, but
trying to find joyful moments being created, courageous about those
times you need to do that will help you get
to it.
Speaker 2 (53:17):
My cut you, Mahl and nuikichies plain, thank you so
much for everything that you've shared. It just resonates with
me so much. This a few words I could think
of and fling it as we wrap up here, and
one is which means truth and would be a true person,
(53:40):
which is someone who long time ago, that those were
the warrior people. They would do what it took when
the time came, and that those are the things that
we need right now. I know some people don't like
the term like language warrior and stuff, but it's a
war on our languages that we've been facing, and it's
a war that we're still facing. And the other is
yet to tune. And you had to chew means straight ahead.
(54:01):
So which way we're going to go, Well, we're going
to go straight ahead.
Speaker 1 (54:05):
We don't know.
Speaker 2 (54:06):
Sometimes the weather is going to get choppy, sometimes things
are gonna get rough, but we're going to stay in
this boat and we're going to keep going. So as
you are out there doing this work, no matter what
the state of your language is, no matter what you
have to work with and what you don't have, like,
reach out and know that there are other people who
have done it, who are still trying to do it,
(54:26):
and who would love to talk to you and just
say we believe in you, we believe in what you're doing.
We'll share the things that have worked for us, and
we'll form these alignments of what we're trying to do
in these spaces of decolonization and language reclamation, and so
it is possible. It takes a lot of courage, it
takes a lot of hope, and it takes a lot
(54:48):
of love. And that's one thing that I would take
from the wonderful things you shared today is never forget
that love drives the vehicle, Love drives the movement. It's
love for yourself, it's love for each other, whether it's
love for your ancestors, it's love for your descendants. And
so if you can tune out those colonial forces that
try to get you to look away from that love,
(55:09):
then I think you're a lot more likely to be successful.
This has been the Tongue Unbroken. Folks, we are near
the end of season two. We're so grateful that you
have tuned in and listened. We're grateful to all the
folks who have spent some time with us, and especially
today to Kiki for all of the wisdom that you've shared,
and aloha you've given us. Ohuiho mahal nui
Speaker 4 (55:30):
Oh mahalo nui Helloha
Okay, they tried to colonizzs, tried to genocide, yet we're
still here with the Tongue on broke.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
And kadanj to cut you on yai Yah A.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
T was.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Yeah teen where Kyran Jenny Joy welcome folks to the
Tongue Unbroken. This is our second to last episode of
the season. And as things go, things have gotten a
little chaotic on my and we have some guests who
(01:02):
thought they would come and then thought it wouldn't and then,
as luck would have it, Kiki Kova, who was an
amazing mentor of mine and an incredible person, called me
yesterday while I was shopping for parts for my boat
and we were talking about a project, and I said, yes,
I would love to do this project, and I would
(01:22):
love to have you on a podcast because you are
so amazing. So I feel like things have aligned. But
now that we're recording my audio, gears is going kind
of crazy, like those sounds aren't nothing is going where
it's supposed to be. But this just means we're in
some trickster territory towards the end of our second season here.
But I am so excited to have this conversation with Kiki.
(01:44):
Today she is doing incredible things for languages all across
the world and of centered in a e And so
when I met Kiki, she was the basically the dean,
the director of Kahako ula O k Iliki Lani where
I was a student, and I would come and talk
to her about project ideas and dissertation ideas and how
(02:08):
to keep going. And then after I graduated, we would
stay in touch as we brought her to Alaska to
come and talk with us about languages just before COVID
sort of hit. And then we've been in touch about
national projects and initiatives, sometimes testifying to the United States
Congress through various committees about things that are needed, and
(02:32):
then sometimes about grant projects and things that reach across
the world and try to unite language reclamation movements. So
for starters, Kiki, could you talk about who you are
and what you do and what led you to work
in languages?
Speaker 4 (02:51):
Bill Ika Nana mahalaka huy ana, make me man aloha everybody.
I'm Keiki kava and who am I? I think I'd
like to start where my beginnings are, and that is
(03:14):
where my aina is. And I am the granddaughter of
two native speakers, where my my aloha, my love and
passion for Hawaiian language, I think was planted they for
our family was our last speaking generation, and I think
being the eldest of all of the mopuna, all of
(03:36):
the grandchildren, I had the kuli another responsibility and the
privilege at the same time to hang with the old folks,
and I think something just went in me that just
kind of built aloha for the language. And I'd say,
first of all, that's what I am. I am a
person that loves my language. I'm a parent that raised
(03:59):
her children, my husband and I with ole Lahavai as
their first language. Were just some very fortunate circumstances that
our family had to be able to do that at
a time where people were not doing I think there
were outside of the nie Hell community. I think there
were five or six families that's all that I know
(04:21):
of that we're doing the same thing, and all second
language speakers across the state. And so it's just amazing
how the kind of synergy that happened that kind of
brought us together, that made it a possibility to take
what we were doing at home and putting it in
an educational setting where our children were able to be
(04:44):
schooled through Hawaiian media education and graduate through Hawaiian media education.
And now I have my puna my grandchildren in Hawaiian
media education. So I would definitely say a huge part
of my identity is grounded in my language. My family's
from the island of Maui. My grandmother is from Molokai.
(05:05):
So if anybody's listening on this podcast from them ala
on nu ya Oko in my professional work, you're right.
I previously set down last year in August from the
director position of cahako Ula Elikolani. There's a Hawaiian language
college here at yue Chilo, so I stepped down from
that position, of which was very very difficult because that's
(05:28):
my passion era, but to help my larger campus. So
currently I'm sitting in an interim vice chancellor of Academic
Affairs position. What's really interesting is as all of our
struggles have fruited different kinds of things, one of the
things that has done is it's offered some different ways
of thinking about learning, about education, about the impact of
(05:52):
what we do, and the solutions for that that actually
have been in assistance to higher education have been in
assistance sense to lower education. We see that in our
state with what they're doing with trying to I'm going
to call it Hawaii based education, really trying to base
our children more as much in different percentages Hawaiian medium.
(06:14):
That's really clear, but even in mainstream education in our
Department of Education, even trying to put more Hawaiian into
the education processes of the students. So I think that
has come from our work across the state in the
last forty years. It's kind of shifted how we kind
of think about education and the value of language is
(06:38):
one of those strategies that enhances the genius in our children.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Hikayla, I'm going to change for all of your work
climbing up into these academic realms of Vice Chancellor. It's
really incredible and impactful, especially when we have indigenous people
in those positions and indigenous peoples who can speak our
languages in those Because transforming educational systems is such incredible work,
(07:05):
there's always so much work to do. These systems are
incredibly colonial by nature, and so some of the work
that we do is pushing back on these systems. The
work that we do is forging new paths within those systems.
So one of the things I think about a lot
is all around the world, there's a lot of people
who have really tried to bring their languages back to
(07:26):
a place of strength. And Hawaiian at one point was
down to enough speakers that you could count them, and
now it's up to a level where you can't count
the number of Hawaiian speakers that there are. It's reaching
this level of getting into tens of thousands of people,
which is incredible, but still sometimes you could say, okay,
well that's still like barely ten percent of our people
(07:47):
or whatever. But it's undoubtedly a very successful language movement,
and it's a model for the world. And as you said,
like that, Kuliana, that responsibility to help others is something
that I've always seen and felt when I've gone to
Hawaii and worked with people there. But how did it work?
Because there's lots of other people in other places who
(08:08):
wanted to revitalize their language or want to, But it
seems like there were some things that really aligned or
worked out to get to this point where you have
thousands of speakers now, and no indigenous language is ever safe,
but Hawaiian is certainly on this path of incredible growth
and how did that work when maybe it didn't work
in other places.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
That's a really really good question. It's a bit of magic,
isn't it. But I think at the foundation of what
we did, I really can't speak for others and their experience,
but I can tell you some of the things that
I think were essential components to our ability to do
what we've done. I think one is that it started
(08:51):
in the home and so really moving oleloi back into
normalizing the language within the home, and then having the
school to hold hands with what was happening at home.
So really we were creating small communities. You know, when
children are small, the community circles are smaller home. It's
(09:14):
places in your community where the family visits the schools.
We try to kind of create that as sacred language
spaces as best as we can so, and that's easier
said than done. In fact, it's really really difficult. It's
really difficult when you are a first language speaker of
another language trying to raise your children in your native language.
(09:36):
It means that you've got to deal with vocabulary that
you know, you don't think about until you come up
to it. Ways of bringing our language into current our
current lives. And you know, we know that all living
languages have new vocabulary. It's one of the signs of
a vibrant language is that it has new vocabulary all
(09:56):
the time. I mean sometimes we don't think about that
in English, but you think about all the things that
we have in technology that there weren't words for two years,
four years, five years ago. And in order to live
in this world with our children, we have to figure
out a way to still maintain our Hawaiian way of thinking,
but articulate that to the language of a current day contexts.
(10:21):
So I want to say the leading families that were involved,
those five or six families, really through the punan Alo
and opening up the preschool, gave us a place to
bring our children together, gave us a place to bring
our families together. So it was really es central that
piece for that. I don't know if it would have
(10:41):
been the same result without having places to connect families,
because we are all living in different places, living in
different islands. So those on each of these islands started
to create small circles of family language communities. And really
with young children, it's not as hard as it is
(11:04):
when you're older. So we stuck to our vision and
our goal, and I think that's key to remember. So
that's another element. It's being good examples for they're speaking
no matter how fabulous or awkward the language with the
message was that Hawaiian holelohova was important to us. It
was a value that we shared in our family and
(11:26):
we practiced. It was one that our children saw with
other families. They played together, we worked together. So just
that small group kind of was able to build that synergy.
I think that was really important to use education as
one of our major strategies for reviting a language, and
as we are renormalizing language in our homes. Those two things,
(11:50):
I think is what's moved a lot of things. And
the fact that there's something about the commitment of revitalizing
your language with your own children. Let me say that again,
with your own children that keep you on that pathway
because anything you screw up on that, you screwed up
on that with your own children. And so I think
(12:12):
that just kind of kept us moving along and along
those ways, we're developing skills that I think we wouldn't
have developed otherwise. You know, we had to go to
the legislature, we had to open schools, we had to
figure out what to do with the curriculum. I mean
from just the simple stuff that happens in the playground
(12:32):
to some really complicated things that would not have been
I think in it's sort of people's usual lives, the
usual family lives, So family Ohana, renormalizing and education. I
think that's been the recipe for us because everybody place
around we had to shift mindsets. You know, in between
(12:53):
that we still let people saying to us are they
going to succeed? You know, how are they going to
succeed in life? You know, and those days we don't
know as much as we know now about the power
of language that it actually accelerates the brain power to
know multiple languages. You know, we're so United States in general,
(13:14):
with so much more focused on being on monolingual country,
even with all the many many languages that we have
in our country, not really recognizing the power that language
has to increase our brain power. So lots of learning
for our own brain power as parents and keeping us
on that pathway with our children. That was a very long,
(13:35):
lengthy answer.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Sorry about that, Mikelo. It's amazing because I think about
this stuff all the time, because if we go back
fifteen years ago. I had a teacher and mentor who
was raising her children in French, and I remember just
watching that and thinking about could that work because her
husband spoke English. And then I had another friend who
(13:56):
was raising her child in Spanish and then her husband
spoke English, and I would watch them and I thought
maybe I could, maybe we could do that. And so
when my wife and I had our first baby, we
sort of had this agreement that we would try this
one parent, one language model that we had sort of
read about and had actually witnessed. And then when the
baby was born, though, like, it's such a wonderful idea,
(14:18):
but when you're sitting there looking at a baby and
you're trying to raise them, and just as far as
becoming a parent, I remember one time because in Hawaii
and I had a thought and I asked a friend.
I said, hey, how'd you learn how to swim? He said, oh,
my dad brought me out a boat on the ocean.
He just threw me in the water and he said,
swim back to the boat. And it's like, okay, that's
sort of like parenthood, and that's sort of like language learning.
(14:39):
Sometimes is this sort of you're just got to get
thrown in. But as I sort of figured out, there's
so much stuff that as a classroom language. Think it
was kind of a classroom language at that time, and
so what we hadn't sort of figured out is all
the things we need to do to make it a
language of daily use. And so there was a group
of us who were learning how to speak, and we
(15:00):
had kids, and we tried to commit to speaking, cling
it to our children. And there's a few tough things.
I think one is a lot of people who try
that say, oh, well, I got to tell you something
really important, so let me tell you in English to
make sure you understand. And I think that's sort of
a tragic flaw because you have to whatever language you
communicate in, you could still communicate important stuff. And so
(15:22):
there's a danger if you switch to English to say, well,
let me tell you these things that you understand, whereas
if you can really stick it out and say I
believe I can explain this to them, and I believe
they can understand it, and then they'll have this cultural
understanding of it as well. So I think that was
one thing. Another thing that was really tough is when
people came around us who didn't speak cling it, and
so I think sometimes you'd feel polite to switch over
(15:45):
to English and speak English to your child, or with
a one parent, one language model, sometimes one parent would say,
well what does that mean?
Speaker 3 (15:53):
What is that? What is that?
Speaker 2 (15:54):
And I actually had to have a conversation with my
wife and say, hey, I love you, I want you
to be involved in all of this stuff, but you
can't ask me to translate everything in front of the baby.
I could tell you later, you know. And so we
had to sort of get to these agreements, and my
wife's fluency went way up because of that. And so
as we sort of commit to that. I think the
other thing that I noticed in Hawaii is a commitment
(16:16):
to language use. And so, for example, this requires some
adjusting of relationships and how relationships work. So if two
people are friends and they both start studying a new language,
if they want to become speakers of that language, they
should speak to each other in that language. And so
one thing I noticed in Hawaii is when I was
learning Hawaiian, once people found out about it, who were
(16:39):
involved with the movement at all, they would be really
excited to come talk to me in Hawaii, like I
could see it in their eyes when they're walking towards me.
I was like, oh, no, here they come to talk
to me, you know. But it's also that's what languages need,
is they need a commitment of use, and then they
need to pull you into those areas of use and
be patient and understanding. And so those were all things
(16:59):
that I saw while I was over there. And I
remember one time, just to address the last point that
you also made. Someone once as I was proposing these ideas,
they said, well, education is the thing that took your
language away. Why would you use that as the thing
to bring it back? And I said, oh, I've never
seen a language movement that has been successful that didn't
(17:19):
take control of its own education and say, okay, we're
going to educate children, of course, but we need to
have an option to do that entirely in our language.
And so that's where I think you see strength. But
it takes a lot to be able to build up
your capacity to do it. But also I think one
thing that we learned talking with Larry Kimura was we
brought him over here and everyone kept saying, well, we're
(17:40):
going to wait till we get the money, and we're
gonna wait till we get the curriculum, and I go,
we're gonna wait till we get the teachers, and he
stopped people and he says, you can't just wait for
everything to line up. You have to just go for it.
You have to go, and then you start to construct
those things along the way, which is I think a
colonial trick that gets us stalled out is to make
(18:00):
us feel like we're not ready. When you know, I
think and thing it that's gook kanaak. It doesn't matter
if you're not ready, you just gotta go. And then
but to go and be in these collaborative atmospheres, those
are the things like some of the folks here say,
we can't do what Hawaii does. We're not we're not them,
we don't want to be them. And I say, well,
(18:21):
we're not trying to be them. We're trying to look
at what they did and replicate it because it's a
successful model and it's something that we can do, but
it's going to take tons of effort and transformation. And
then I try to remind people when you go to
Hawaii and if you go see the ahao and you
see Navaji and you seekahaka ula okay, Lika Lani. Just
remember you're looking potentially thirty years into our future and
(18:44):
you have to envision like the steps to get there.
So I appreciate everything that you've shared so far. We're
going to take a short break and we're going to
come right back. I'm so excited to be here with Kiki,
and I'm so thankful you could carve an hour out
of your day to do this. Mahallo you Sho.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
Will be right back.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
And then the couple people want, people want me, I'll
get my al and no righta mad how gay.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Right?
Speaker 3 (19:33):
Let me get how way.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
Why oh my.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
My my go wan gym my field, wh by my hockey? Hi?
Yeah why final mino? Hi you m h.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
To art Just look at you, hon. We're back, folks.
We're having some fun technical issues here. So so today
I guess we're just recording with Raven. So we're getting
some tricks your treatment, so Maui treatment, and so Malia Klau,
(21:03):
Raven Woijin you havesat So Maui and Raven are just
having a little conversation. So we had to pause and
sort of fix some things. But we are back and
I'm excited. One of my uncles one time said my
gratitude killed me, which is a very fun way foring
it to be dramatic and thankful at the same time.
So we're back with Kiki Kave and one of the
(21:25):
questions that I have for you, which is another big
question but also sort of generalizing a little bit. When
you're doing this work in language reclamation and education, how
do you know when to indigenize something that's there and
when to create your own path so that you can
just have your own thing. So when do you fix
(21:45):
the colonizer's stuff and when do you make your own path?
Within those sort of frameworks.
Speaker 4 (21:50):
The first thing is you have to figure out where
you're going, and it's not clear. There's not like a
recipe or book that you follow, but there are some
basic things that you know have to happen. One is,
when you commit to doing this, you've got to ensure
that there's space to continue that. So for schooling, for example,
we sort of went in as a pilot in kindergarten,
(22:13):
and the first class was actually a kindergarten first grade class,
a total pilot. We had no promise that it would
even be there the following year. So as each of
these barriers come up, you have to be willing to
address them with what that takes. So that started a
lot of work at the legislature, you know, taking our
(22:34):
children to the legislature, educating them about that, going to
the Board of Education meetings, educating them about that and
what we're doing. And the fact probably that they were
our children. The risk was a parental risk, and they
were actually supporting families, so they took that risk with
us because it wasn't like a department policy decision that
(22:58):
they made that affected impacted families who maybe wanted or
wanted we were in hundred percent, But just say it again,
you have to try and step stay a few steps
ahead and project what might be coming ahead so when
they get there, we're not stumped. And when it happens
(23:18):
that we are stumped, we have to be ready to
give our peace, you know, to explain what it is
and why it is we're doing, and you know, you
just sort of have to be ready for the unimaginable.
I'm just going to say that because we really didn't know,
but the fact that we had other families with us
that were doing the same thing kind of gave us
(23:39):
a lot of courage to do that, as well as
having our children to take with us, because they were
the proof that it was possible and they were our
joy that it was happening. So even more so it
kind of I'm when I say, kicked you in the butt,
so to speak to ke, keep going, you know, and
looking at the new things that we needed to look
at another grade, more issue with curriculum, not ever having
(24:02):
enough money, so rethinking how we're going to do things differently,
and that got us to think about did we even
like the curriculum that our children were getting in our schools?
You know, how can we make better connections about that
because we had to create the stuff anyway, Just taking
vendor curriculum was a really big thing. Then taking prescribed
curriculum was very much trendy at that time. That doesn't
(24:26):
work for us, you know. Taking basil readers, that was
a big thing in the eighties. You take a basil
reader and you translated. We started with that because we thought, okay,
that's something we could kind of work with really quick,
and we discovered within the first six months that we
can't do this because basil readers were written for English
and when you translated you're not developing Hawaiian. So we
(24:48):
had to go and look for others. So whole language
came and a pattern readers came in. I mean just
kind of one thing rolled into another, and we were
just you have to be ready to do the whole
thing and not be afraid of it. And it sounds scary,
but it really is quite exciting. It really is quite exciting,
and you have others to do it with you. And
(25:09):
it doesn't take a whole lot. It takes the power
and the magic of families being committed to that and
working together towards that and just.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
Do what you got to do.
Speaker 4 (25:18):
So to be honest, that's exactly what we did because
nobody had done that before. So, I mean, my cousins
had some, but they had lots of financial government support.
We didn't have any of that. So you learn to
write grants now you want to do all kinds of things.
And the other thing is there were strengths that families had,
you know, some were really good at the fundraising thing,
(25:41):
you know, and organizing that, and that's the thing they took.
You know. Some like my area actually is in curriculum,
so that's an area that I can so we also
honed in on the talents that we had to assist.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
With the movement at Lincoln is cheese. Yeah, And so
thinking about those roles, like, I wonder about that stuff too,
because I think it's good for people to see this
in little, manageable pieces, like you were saying, you build
a language nest, which is a preschool, then you build
a kindergarten next year, build a first grade. So I
think some people might look at these huge language schools
(26:16):
and think, how do I do all of that right now?
And I don't think you can, but if you can
stage it, say, Okay, a thirteen year plan is to
go one year at a time, build this thing and
have this group of kids, And it's really unfortunate for
the kids who are in school right now, who are
maybe in tenth grade, eleventh grade, twelfth grade. And it's
not saying we don't care about you, and we can
do what we can to reach the folks who are
(26:38):
already in schools, but to build this whole new system
I think is really transformational. And so when you folks
were doing that, was there conscious conversations about Okay, who's
going to go develop the curriculum, Who's going to go
get the money, who's going to manage the money, who's
going to become the teacher of the teachers, who's going
to produce this type of thing and that type of thing,
(26:59):
Because because I think that's the other thing too, it
takes a lot of coordination to say, Okay, we can't
have this small group of people doing everything, but you
can have this small group of people doing these things
that they can manage, and then these things collectively build
on this big thing. So what was the process like
in terms of coordinating some of that stuff, like who
would become the principal, who would become the lead teacher.
(27:21):
How did those conversations go about That's.
Speaker 4 (27:24):
Really you know, I have to think about that because
I think that we had conversations about that, and sometimes
very strategic. But there were understandings amongst us. I think
that we just understood and took to heart. You know,
those that had certain strengths were that's what they had
to contribute, I mean, and if they didn't there were
(27:46):
impacts on that. For example, those of us that had
strengths with language and curriculum not contributing that would mean
the less quality and the more of the struggle with
curriculum that we be taught in schools. You know, if
we didn't have those families that were good and fundraising,
we probably would have had certain things to bring into
our schools. So I think people kind of knew that
(28:09):
everybody's skills and talents was critical to the mission and
was important to the mission and it's work of passion.
So you kind of have to know where you are
in that larger picture, and people shouldn't have to ask
you what you know you need to do. So there
were sometimes conversations as we were planning, like going to
look for where we would move the middle school the
(28:32):
high school section after we as we were going into
we were in public education now and we were still piloting,
and our students were going our children were going into
middle school and then to high school. Well, they can't
stay at the elementary school anymore. So we had to
kind of stay a little head ahead of them. So
(28:52):
just in case the answer came, we have no place
for your children, we had answers for that, you know,
so we'd get in a car and go drive around
look at places that were possible. So our children from
elementary ended up in the third floor of the unemployment building,
and the Punanalo funded the payment for that so that
we could actually move to children because their other choice
(29:13):
was unacceptable to us. And then Nabahi opened up and
the whole politics of that to it to be able
to bid for the school and go to the Office
of Hawaiian Affairs and to actually get a grant to
pay for the school. It was you just have to
stay like a bit ahead of that as families. But
on the other end, punan Aleo was growing as an organization.
(29:35):
Its schools was growing, They were getting better at knowing
what they were doing. Emersion schools were also growing, so
that organization, that structure in public education was growing. The
university also was relooking at what they're doing because they
hadn't been really successful by teaching I call it I
called teaching of languages and about of and through strategy.
(29:57):
So sometimes you want to learn about the language you know,
you kind of take for us would be equal to
like a one o one. You want to kind of
know how to pronounce Hawaiian, have a basic conversation. But
your goal really is that is to appreciate the beauty
of O La Lahavai. That's the about thing. We weren't
about that about thing. Then there's the O and most
(30:20):
that's what we do in schools, right, we teach of
the you know, of the language, you know, sort of
the science of the language. And so it's more like
an academic experience. The goal really isn't that at that
to revitalize a language. It's sort of people taking personal
gestures of learning the language, and you don't know what
happens with it after that. Right, then there's learning through
(30:40):
the language. That's a whole total commitment different. So that's
where our commitment was, is that everything we did we
had to try to do it through the language. So
when you take it, when you decide that strategy, just
all of the planning, you can barely stay ahead of it.
You just but that's what you do. You hone in
on everybody's strengths just to stay a tad bit ahead
(31:04):
of it. So for example, children need about three hundred
fifty three hundred and sixty books exposure a year if
they're learning to read. That's a lot of books to prepare.
You know, what are all the different ways There's no
way that you could in your mind be creating books,
translating that that much would take a whole assortment of people.
So those that spoke Kwahian started to translate. You know,
(31:27):
the university, those professors that had students at that level
started to create books. We started to bring parents as
we're doing teaching classes and I'm doing simple books. I mean,
you just got to figure out all these like strategies
that I don't think there was like a recipe, but
you got a problem, solve it real quick for the answers,
and things sort of just develop in that way. Sounds
(31:47):
a little disorganized, doesn't but it really was an organized mess.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Yeah what And I think it kind of has to
be that way. There was a Haida language learner here
who said he was calling like gorilla warfare tactics, where
you have these there's an idea of what we're all
trying to do, and it's pretty well orchestrated, but everyone's
going to have to go and operate without having to
always check back into the sort of as a group
(32:13):
and say, Okay, these things have to grow. They grow here,
they grow there, and the thing develops its own identity.
And I really appreciate what you're saying about about of
and through, which is a really wonderful approach for folks
to take, because I think if you get stuck in
any one area for too long, especially the first two,
then you'll have people who can know about the language
(32:34):
and tell you how it works, but they really just
have a hard time speaking it. And so for us,
we're really trying to move towards getting our folks talking
and unlocking some things and really getting them to think
in the language and to reach a state of flow,
which is very challenging like some of this stuff too,
because you're also decolonizing. Like I remember we did some
(32:55):
classes there with Tinekpungi and de Hoo and myself, and
we worked with Pila for probably eight hours a day
for about eight weeks, and we felt pretty okay with
how we're learning Hawaiian, and I think we're trying to
see how fast we could possibly learn it. And I'm
feeling pretty good. And then I walk into Navihi and
I'm in a first grade class, and this low boy
(33:16):
is trying to talk to me, the six year old,
and I was saying like, say it again, and say
it again, and say it again and say it again,
and about the twentieth time, I was like Okay, his
brother has the same laptop as me. You know, it
took me so long to sort of get that. But
just to see even those kids, they understand a lot
of people come through Navaji, a lot of people tour Ajuno,
but if you're there for more than a day, those
(33:37):
kids start to think, Okay, you must be Kawai and
if you're here, and they just talk to you. And
it was so neat to see that approach. And I
remember the last time I was in Hilo, we were
there for a language conference. I was excited to meet
this young man and I knew some of the language
work that he was doing, and so we were going
to sit and visit for a while. And I went
to go put my stuff in my hotel room and
(33:58):
I came back down and someone had come to just
sit down next to him, and he was this guy
that had recently moved to Hawaii. He was not a
Hawaiian guy, who was a holly guy. And I just
sort of was eavesdropping on the conversation. He was saying, Oh,
Hawaiian is so easy. You could learn it in like
two weeks. It's just got eleven sounds and it's just
it's such such an easy language, and so I leaned
in and I said, oh, you speak Hawaiian. It's exciting.
(34:21):
Let's let's speak some Hawaiian. Then he says, oh, I
don't know. I don't speak Kawhi. And I said, oh, well,
you're you're just talking about how easy the language is.
So you've got to know it in order to know that,
right and so, and I think he got really embarrassed.
But I think when you really get into the complexity
of languages and you get into that depth, like I remember,
that was one thing that I saw a lot in
(34:41):
Hawaii was that they were saying, go for the deep
sea fish, which I was really appreciating because some of
our scholars here, my auntie Nora Marx Dallenhouer his Linktt
name was Peirne, and her husband Kwai Richard Dowenhower, they
once said, well, we think Clingett will survive, but it's
going to be this very simple version of the language
(35:02):
because there's not enough of that depth. And so I
really appreciate what I saw over there that there was
always this push to get to the roots of the
language and to get to these deep level types of things,
which is so exciting, and I think the only way
to get there is through, you know. And so sometimes
we'll talk about something being difficult, and then sometimes people
(35:22):
will say, a tou nachyakkikut, You're just going to go
through it. And so as you build these programs, as
you build these immersion schools, it's important to remember that
that struggle is real and there are networks. So like
the Native American Language Resource Center, that's going to be
a nationwide thing, like that's an option. Looking at the
(35:42):
PhD program Inhilo, that's an option, looking at these ways
to tie ourselves to other languages, because I think the
decolonization part for me is something that takes a continual
reality check to say, Okay, we're going to do this,
we can do this, and we actually have to do
this because a lot of folks they kind of get
suck as you were saying, and they don't get over
(36:04):
that sort of there's just something that holds them back.
And I think the thing that usually holds them back
is something that's just a colonial mechanism designed to keep
them in place. So thinking about when you started, there
were few speakers, there was few learners, there was no money,
there was no curriculum, So where do people start.
Speaker 4 (36:24):
In terms of schooling, in terms of just generally where
they start?
Speaker 2 (36:28):
Yeah, maybe generally, Like let's say you've got a program
at the school and you've got people raising their kids
in the language. And then there was one guy I
was talking to and he said, don't start a preschool
and until you have an effective way to teach adults
or else you'll kill your language. And I remember I thought, gee,
mister negative. You know, because for me, I think about
(36:50):
this stuff like what to do next, because some of
our adults say, we don't want to do language nest
in a kindergarten, in a first grade fully in the language,
because we can't speak the language fully yet. But then mind,
I think, well, there's no place to speak the language,
so you have to create the school so that there's
a place to speak the language. So sometimes it feels
like there's just boundaries on all sides of us. And
(37:11):
so I guess the question maybe is a more focused
question would be how do you develop the mentality to say, Okay,
maybe we feel like we can't do this, but we're
just going to try because we have to.
Speaker 3 (37:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
I think the first thing is your mentality and your
mindset is everything. It'll empower you or it will not.
So where do you begin? I think I mentioned it before.
I really think you begin with you can only begin
where you're at. You find a couple people that it's
you'll never have enough money, you'll never have all the
(37:44):
things that you need and your curriculum in place. Not
with an endangered language. You will never have that. It's endangered.
It's already on the time, it's already on the watch,
and every minute that you wait and put it aside
is a minute you lose your language. So you cannot wait.
You have to decide who's going to be the champions
of this and what ways are you going to invest
(38:05):
to do that? And you just got to dive in
and do it and things will show its way along
the way. I just it's just amazing how many people
don't speak Hawaiian but had Hawaiian in their families, native
Hawaiians and non native Hawaiians, because Hawaiian was once national language.
You know, when they talk about their own family, island
histories that have become great champions and supporters, you know
(38:27):
it was maybe wasn't even for them, but the language
calls to you, you know, and in the switch of
the mindset, it starts to call you and you just
got to answer it. And it sounds like, how am
I going to do this? Start simple? I say, you
start with the children. I still think that's the best
place you start in your home because it's really the
(38:48):
most demanding but the less threatening. Nobody's going to turn
around and say you use that a mark er wrong,
you know, and your cow coo sound wasn't in place.
Speaker 3 (38:58):
You know.
Speaker 4 (38:58):
Well, your children do eventually start to correct you, but
you know, it's a safer place to start in your home,
and you do what you have to do if you
have to put cards all around. I remember my when
I was in immersion. I helped to open up the
third immersion site, which was on the island of Muwi,
and the first thing I did was thought, think about
(39:18):
what are tools I can help families with because many
of these families have had in their family history similar
experiences like I did, but they didn't have the four
years of o La Lahavaii that I took at the university,
you know, so they were like taking community classes or
thinking about it and getting in site. So they need tools.
So I mean, I would do this word of the week,
(39:41):
and I carefully chose the words that would be words
that can be put in questions that had multiple answers.
And they had vocabulary cards that they taped all over
their house that they would be able to use at
home because the structure could be applied in home language
of language. So I tried to think of those creating
(40:02):
times that we spent outside of school. So even the
children at school were really part of a broader, larger family.
So you're starting to change how you do things, you know,
in your homes and your that becomes your small community.
And then as they're growing, Oh my goodness, maybe they
want to play soccer together. How are we going to
(40:23):
do that? So our father says, oh, I know how
to play soccer and I can speak a little ole la,
and somebody else says, well, I'll come and help you
with that, and I'll be the one that organizes the games,
and you know, and just trying to find every opportunity
as much as possible to oleloi in a manava po
manava hiapo, which means to speak Kawaiian as much as
(40:45):
you can and as many places as you can, and
that be the guiding rule, and then what supports that
is to be the change agent of the goal you seek.
You know, so those two things just get people to
rally a little bit differently and things just sort of
have their own dynamics around that. And it sounds difficult,
but it actually was lots of fun. I mean, our
(41:06):
kids have the friendships that they've had now that they
are parents with high school children and graduating out of
high school, their bonds have just been amazing friendships where
you can really see that they feel part of this
larger ohana because they're also doing that with their children
and across with each other's children. So you just don't know,
(41:28):
you have to kind of stick to some of those
simple strategies and those hold those high and true, high
and true. I'm just say that you have to hold
them high and true that they become your guiding light,
not necessarily the individual, but the larger idea that you
all value and believe can happen. And if you believe
hard enough, actually it starts to happen.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Mike Y Mike kay LAA be the change agent, folks.
You can do it. And I think you have to
just keep going and you have to don't make yourself
start over. You just have to sort of build on
this momentum. Believe in yourself, believe in each other, hold
each other up, and we're gonna take our second break
and we'll be right back. Good jeeesh mhullo. Book day,
(44:15):
got cow to hit to cut you on Welcome back, folks.
So as we wrap up this conversation, there was a
couple of things I was thinking of that I'd like
to sort of talk to you about Kiki. And You're
just so amazing, You're so wonderful. Every time I talk
to you, I'm inspired and I learn, and I feel
like we're supposed to know each other. So I guess,
what are your strategic approaches for these two sort of populations.
(44:39):
One is a kiki, a child who comes into a
language nest and maybe is not from a Hawaiian speaking home,
So how do you get that child to sort of
feel okay and feel comfortable and be willing to sort
of talk. And then what do you do with an
adult who comes in who also might not know the
language and is maybe nervous or scared, And how do
(45:01):
you sort of create these safe spaces for those two groups?
So that they can feel okay, they could feel at home,
and they could start to listen and they could start
to speak.
Speaker 4 (45:11):
So the key is safe and feeling safe in a
language environment and feeling embraced in a language environment. That's
really the key. So effort counts, willingness counts. In a
safe environment, nobody needs to be fluent. Sometimes you work
around strategies to help make that place feel safe, like
(45:32):
it doesn't matter whether it's children or adults. You know,
when they're having a difficulty, you can role model that language.
Lots of sort of nonverbal communication happening as you're doing that,
and repeating the language that they would need to say,
and just even if it comes in as words and
short sentence praises and sentences, you just kind of work
(45:55):
to build their confidence to be in that language immersed environment.
Because when you're a confident, you also feel safer. It's
not as threatening. So whatever you need to do to
help build that confidence, and you need to be a
little bit patient, but remembering that if they are committed
to that, everybody has a little bit different learning aptitude
(46:17):
that may be a little bit different, you know, so
everybody is not the same. So part of it is
creating contexts where languages can thrive. So there's a really
big difference, for example, of giving a lecture to students
about osmosis and talking about that in Hawaiian and going
over everybody's heads because they don't have the vocabulary for
(46:39):
the complexity of that language that that concept would have
from taking them outside or doing kind of hands on
things with them, observing change because we have lots of
rainbows in our clouds, and so there's ways that you
could kind of look and talk about that and bringing
them into that experience with the wealth of the language
(47:00):
that starts to create a safe space. I don't see
that adults are that much different than children, to tell
you the truth. In fact, I think children are much
more straightforward. If they have a hard time, you know what,
adults will try and I'm going to say, be patient
around it, sometimes kind of fake around it if they can.
(47:20):
Children are so block honest. But a lot of those
strategies that you use with children actually really work with
new speakers. And that's what we're talking about, is bringing
new speakers into the environment, right and then bringing them
into our homes, just our gatherings, whether it's to the
beach or picnic, and just giving them more time and
(47:40):
space in the language is really important because you only
get better at language when you're in the language. So
as least as you can make it, I think as
an academic language for those coming into it is a
safe space to bring them into it, and useful kinds
of language and context makes it helps to build that
confidence as well, you know. And then there is the
(48:03):
complexity of language, you know, starting with more simple kinds
of patterns that become complex more complex as they learn.
You use all of those as well. So we've done
all of that.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
Ruhulo, And I know you're very busy, and so I
need to let you go, but I do have one
more question for you, which is just when I talk
to folks that I really admire, I always think of
like big questions, like, oh, here's the big question, And
so I don't know if this is really one of those.
But as you sort of start to do this work,
(48:36):
and it's transformational forging new paths, it's also restoring languages
and reconnecting people to their languages, and it's all big work,
and it's all hard work, and it's all just monumental
type of stuff. But sometimes under that pressure, the group
that's doing the work can sometimes take it out on
each other a little bit, or there's there's always the
(48:57):
risk that the group will explode or implode. So the
question is how do you sort of keep the group
unified and together when sometimes there's not agreement on what
to do, or sometimes there's a lot of pressure. And
sometimes when there's pressure, it's easier to just take it
out on someone else than to sort of buckle down
and do the thing. So how do you keep the
(49:18):
band from breaking up?
Speaker 4 (49:19):
There are a couple of basic things that I find.
One thing because the work is hard, so there has
to be times where there's joy in the work. Joy
is really sometimes we don't realize how important it is
to be joyful in the language and to create those
kind of experience. I mean, even if you gather together
and the job is just to sing music together and
(49:39):
eat together and laugh together. You know, joy helps us
with our patients when times are hard, because we know
we know what the times, we know what the hard
times are like and the stress of that. But what
keeps you together is also having those joyful times that
keep the bond and the reminder of why you're doing
what you're doing with that. There are a couple of
things things that I kind of use that have actually
(50:03):
helped me in life, and it's definitely helped me in
my work with La alohava E. And that's two things.
One is that everything that you do, you must as
best as possible greet it with aloha. It's really hard
to be in an aloha space, a kind, loving, nurturing
space as much. And that's about intention, because sometimes it's
(50:27):
not all as possible to be in those spays, but
your attention when it comes from an aloha space curbs
some of the rough edges, so to greet all the
things that you want to do with aloha. The second
is is to have courage. Things don't change. New things
don't happen with people having the courage to be okay
to try things that they may not have done before.
(50:50):
But you know that something right in the center of
your gut, in your not out, is the right thing
to do, you know. I mean sometimes I could feel
my grandparents with me. I can feel their joy sometimes
when times got hard, I can feel them saying, you're
making it right for us, you know, during the times
where they language is being lost and all of those
(51:11):
colonial experiences that were very very painful for them. In
some ways, by doing that through our children, do we
make it right for them? You know? So I find
some of those strategies of whatever that is for you
or for your listeners, that helps you with your courage. Also,
the two things really that has helped to guide me
and I and the last I talked about earlier, is
(51:33):
to have something in your group collectively that you value
in a higher place than yourself, because the self sometimes
trips everybody up. You know, the egos come in place,
you know, my manao, My thoughts is I got a
better strategy to somebody else? You want to neutralize it.
There's got to be something that is important. And what
(51:54):
has been important for us is to normalize our language
as our home language and to give that gift that
was important to us to our children. So that becomes
that kind of guided beacon in which everybody gravitates. Harder
said than done, but it really helped us to move
because there definitely are going to be people with strong
(52:17):
personalities and you're going to have your leaders and your
followers with the truth is that everybody has potential to
lead within the strength that they possess, and we have
to be able to recognize those strengths and to step
back at those times and to help support those leaders
in the areas that their strengths. And sometimes we got
to be okay with laying out all of our ideas
(52:40):
and strategizing what's the best thing to do and having
those hard conversations. And sometimes you leave a little bit
beaten up by those discussions, but you cannot help but
have that experience because our languages are in those places.
Because if generations are being beaten up, and I'm talking
about physically, emotionally, psychologically, so we actually are churning that
(53:03):
time to make it a better place for our children
and our language. And that doesn't happen by itself, but
trying to find joyful moments being created, courageous about those
times you need to do that will help you get
to it.
Speaker 2 (53:17):
My cut you, Mahl and nuikichies plain, thank you so
much for everything that you've shared. It just resonates with
me so much. This a few words I could think
of and fling it as we wrap up here, and
one is which means truth and would be a true person,
(53:40):
which is someone who long time ago, that those were
the warrior people. They would do what it took when
the time came, and that those are the things that
we need right now. I know some people don't like
the term like language warrior and stuff, but it's a
war on our languages that we've been facing, and it's
a war that we're still facing. And the other is
yet to tune. And you had to chew means straight ahead.
(54:01):
So which way we're going to go, Well, we're going
to go straight ahead.
Speaker 1 (54:05):
We don't know.
Speaker 2 (54:06):
Sometimes the weather is going to get choppy, sometimes things
are gonna get rough, but we're going to stay in
this boat and we're going to keep going. So as
you are out there doing this work, no matter what
the state of your language is, no matter what you
have to work with and what you don't have, like,
reach out and know that there are other people who
have done it, who are still trying to do it,
(54:26):
and who would love to talk to you and just
say we believe in you, we believe in what you're doing.
We'll share the things that have worked for us, and
we'll form these alignments of what we're trying to do
in these spaces of decolonization and language reclamation, and so
it is possible. It takes a lot of courage, it
takes a lot of hope, and it takes a lot
(54:48):
of love. And that's one thing that I would take
from the wonderful things you shared today is never forget
that love drives the vehicle, Love drives the movement. It's
love for yourself, it's love for each other, whether it's
love for your ancestors, it's love for your descendants. And
so if you can tune out those colonial forces that
try to get you to look away from that love,
(55:09):
then I think you're a lot more likely to be successful.
This has been the Tongue Unbroken. Folks, we are near
the end of season two. We're so grateful that you
have tuned in and listened. We're grateful to all the
folks who have spent some time with us, and especially
today to Kiki for all of the wisdom that you've shared,
and aloha you've given us. Ohuiho mahal nui
Speaker 4 (55:30):
Oh mahalo nui Helloha
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