Living Languages, Indigenous Data Sovereignty, Staying Inspired

Lakota language teacher, learner, and activist Ray Taken Alive joins X̱ʼunei to talk about activities in the Lakota language movement, approaches to language teaching and learning, and data sovereignty. They share thoughts on incorporating language teaching methodologies, facilitating growth in safe environments, and dealing with encounters in coloniality when it comes to language data and power. Follow Ray Taken Alive on TikTok and on Twitter. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
He dark. They tried callings, try to genocide us. Yeah,

(00:20):
I'm still here. Get the tongue on rope and got
to hit the wait to cut you on wassaka Gonna
cheese cut yacht. The time has come. I'm so thankful
that you were here. Gonna cheese for listening. This is

(00:41):
the tongue unbroken. Now who naha yahaiki didn't hun ah
we're golight ka teach Joey shea wu sus yeah tong
ten e h n. In our stories, it's the fourth

(01:03):
time that good fortune comes into people's hands possessions, and
so my hope is that whatever you're doing, whatever you're
working on with your language, that good things are coming
to you consistently. Now and forever. Things just get better, better, stronger, stronger.

(01:23):
So we are fortunate on this episode to be joined
by Ray taking Alive Lakota Language teacher learner advocate, and
we're going to talk about a series of things. I'll
pop in now and then to do the commercial breaks,
but we're gonna start by talking about who he is,
what he's been up to, what's going on with their

(01:46):
language there, and then we're gonna talk about what we
feel language learners need in terms of how people learn,
how to create safe environments, what to do about language
learning tech niques, and how to incorporate them, what we
might call methodologies. And then we're gonna talk a little
bit about data sovereignty and what that means for indigenous

(02:10):
communities when non indigenous folks come in and make contributions.
But then sometimes things get a little weird in terms
of data ownership, rights to access, becoming experts, making fun
of indigenous peoples who are just trying to do good things,
being hurtful with their words, all kinds of stuff that

(02:33):
echoes coloniality in just weird ways that aren't as simple
as straight racism, but are certainly parts of systemic racism.
So I'm glad you're here. Buckle up, we're gonna have
some fun. We're gonna keep this thing going. Get in touch.
You can find us on social media, you could find

(02:54):
us through our website, and I gotta update a bunch
of stuff. I'll be working on that. But we're cruising
along and I'm hoping that more folks are going to
join us. Jump into some of these conversations. If you've
got questions, you've got things, you want us to be
talking about. This is not just something that's for entertainment,
but we're hoping it's a resource for you to keep going,

(03:16):
to find inspiration to get on here share things with us.
We want to hear your ideas, We want to hear
what you're doing, talking about that ways you found success
and ways that you might need to call out and
ask for some help. So we're gonna be making some
suggestions in this episode as well, and it will end
up with a couple of jokes. Gonna cheech yeah and

(03:39):
ah gonna chie show which to cut you on yakut. Yeah,
that's gonna cheege. We are here with Ray Taken Alive,

(04:02):
and I'm very excited for this conversation. I'm excited for
us to uh talk about what's going on in your
neck of the woods and also talk about data sovereignty
today and also building sustainable language movement. So, uh do
you want to introduce yourself? Sure? Choose Popalo Ra Taken

(04:30):
Live Almost Lata the Dominie with Blue. Uh. Yeah, So
I just wanted to introduce myself. My name is Ray
Take a Live. I'm from here on Standing Rock, I
have I am I'm a lot Quota language teacher. I
am Lakota. Uh so, yeah, a little bit of introduction

(04:54):
because cheese. Uh yeah. I went to college at the
University of Minnesota in Minneapolis and met quite a few
folks who are Lakota and Dakota and Dakota. Wonderful. Really
enjoyed seeing your folcus this country down there. Could you
talk a little bit about your current work in uh
in your language. First of all, man, you have those

(05:16):
gutturals down when you're saying Lakota Dakota. You're getting that
that guttural down. I love it, man, um. But yeah,
So what I do now is I work at our
local public school, which has its own problems. I means
it has its own, um obstacles of different things. But
I am the Lakota Language, Culture and Community Coordinator. I

(05:38):
really have to stop and think and like, what is
what is my job title? But la Quota Language Cultural
and Community coordinator. Um. What I do here is I
one of my jobs is to create and kind of
um maintain a database of our language resources are cultural resources,
different things like that, and then helped teachers integrate our

(06:02):
culture into the into their classrooms. Um. And then work
with the local boards like the Standing Rock Sux Tribe
Education Department, our Jail R Johnson Omalley Committee at different
things like that. And so I am me and my daughter.
We were at our Locota Language Immersion Nest, which is

(06:26):
about thirty miles from where I work now at the
Sitting Book College. UM, and I was a I was
a part time teacher there in the nest. I was
able and lucky to take part in a year long
program kind of a master apprentice kind of style. We
got to learn the language four hours a day and
then the other half of the day I worked for
either the tribe or the immersion nest. And my daughter

(06:48):
was in the immersion nest for two years. So we
were really blessed with that experience. UM. And so now
we do the best we can at home to to
you know, speak our language, listen to our language, whatever
we can do. That's fabulous. Yeah. I have three kids, uh, daughter, daughter, son,

(07:11):
and we we've raised them in in our language. And
so we decided. I guess I kind of had these
two friends when I was in Fairbanks going to college there,
and one she was British and then she would I
really like the way she would say things with a
British accent, should say, like lawns. And it's really cool.

(07:34):
When she talked to her kids and I know she
was speaking French, and so I don't speak French, but
I thought I could recognize it. And I said, well,
why are you speaking French? And she said, well, that's
how we keep the memory of my mother alive. She
was French and we only spoke French to each other.
And then at the same time I had a friend
who was from Uruguay and she was doing that was
Spanish with her son. And then we started my wife

(07:57):
and I my wife Maria, we started talking and say, hey,
and we have a kid, we could do this with
which thing get And so we tried it and it
really it helped like me as a speaker, and then
they can understand the language. All three of my kids
can well, which is great because kids, you know, weren't
really being raised in our language. And as you start

(08:17):
to do that again, you realize a bunch of stuff
that you know, people are kind of forgetting how to say,
Like we have these elders together and we said, how
do you say change a diaper? And and it took
a long time for them to come up with it,
and one of them kind of started crying and saying
she was feeling bad that she couldn't help us. But
then she was kind of remembering going to a boarding

(08:39):
school and stuff. So, like, thinking of your work and
your kids growing up with a language, what would you say,
what's the state of the language right now? How are
things going? So like many of our indigenous languages that
have been attacked, that have been targeted, that have been um,
that they've tried to erase, we're dealing with the effects

(09:00):
of those colonizing efforts, you know. Um, we have we
have speakers, we have we actually we're lucky, we have
a lot of speakers. But we are trying to kind
of kick start restart, I should say, the intergenerational transmission
of our language. Um, because which which is happening? You know?

(09:23):
Which is really really exciting? These talks, these language talks,
you know, for too many years, UM, are the kind
of like doom and gloom narratives and the trauma narratives,
you know, And so what kind of really opened my
eyes up to this was, um a research article and
also Dr Wesley Leonards alert work. But um, how these

(09:46):
trauma narratives get get spawned, how they get used to
create fear and then to create dependency, you know, So endangered,
um extinct, different languages, different way they try to, you know,
um describe our languages, and so Dr Leonard of the
Miamia he calls those the e words, and so the

(10:09):
way our elders view it, you know, I've heard of
elders say that our language isn't dying or nothing. It's
buried and we could just go and dig that back up.
And we shouldn't, you know, we shouldn't be focusing on,
oh my gosh, we're losing our language or whatever, but
celebrate that we still have it, you know, and our

(10:29):
language isn't gonna go anywhere. I heard another speakers say
that our language is a spirit, you know, and you
can't kill a spirit, and so um. Another another Indigenous
person talking about their language was that they're they're they're
teachers had told them that the land still speaks the language.
The animals can still speak the indigenous languages, so we

(10:51):
don't need to walk in fear. So I just kind
of want to preface that because a lot of these
language talks previously, even I've given some of them. It's like,
you know, you go through all of that, you know
this and that, but the elders have really kind of
like changed my mind and like celebrate it. We still

(11:11):
we still have it, and we still have speakers, and
we still have people fighting for it, and we still
have people fighting to reclaim it in their daily lives.
And now we have children again who can under understand
the language, who can pray in the language, who can
sing the song that needs to be sung at the
time it needs to be sung, you know, without without

(11:32):
that shame or without that fear. And so that's what's really, um,
that's what's kind of really been beautiful and exciting. And
so after we kind of turn away from a lot
of these trauma narratives, this is kind of violent rhetoric
that surrounds our indigenous languages. Um, because my whole thing
is is if someone tries to scare you, then what

(11:55):
are they going to sell you after that? You know,
I just well, I'm sure we'll get into it, but
it's kind of my experiences. I have a I would
say a healthy distrust of different things, but like to
put it mildly, but like so that's kind of so
I just kinda that's kind of I guess that's my answer. Yeah,

(12:17):
that's that's fabulous, because I think colonization really tries to
get you to buy into this thing that everything's already
done and it's over, and you know, like we sometimes
I hear people say, gee, I wish we could have
done something different, and it's sort of like saying, you know,
I think I really agree that the message right now,

(12:39):
I should be like, oh, this is all happening. This,
this is what's happening now. Is this reclamation and that
decolonization is it's going to become this, It's this inevitable
thing because our languages are coming back, are people are
coming back to them. And we had an elder as
well who his name as Randall Technici. He's Quitchen elder

(13:00):
or from I listened to white Horse now based from
oak Crow, and he came to visit our campus and
he set in on one of our language classes and
he just started talking to us. He said, well, you
guys probably feel like you're losing a lot of elders
right now, and you probably feel like all their wisdom
is going with them. But what happens is it goes
back in the land, and you go out on the

(13:21):
land and you speak your language and it comes back
to you in your dreams, and so like I love that,
Like I love the beauty of these these concepts, you know,
these other things that that really I think will inspire
our people, you know, And it's always for me, it's
always a bit of a balancing act to inspire and
also saying, but don't forget to work hard and change

(13:43):
your whole life. I was like, oh, yeah, if you
don't speak now, you totally can. You just gotta change
your life and change everything around you. But but what
you're doing is you're setting a place at the table
for your ancestors. You know. It's like think about like
every time you sit down to eat, you're also going
to set a place for them, and then you're going

(14:04):
to set a place for your future generations. But that
does require this shift, but it's a shift that can happen.
Like there's this conscious part where you shift your life,
and then there's this other part that's kind of already there,
you know. And so the other thing I've been checking
out your videos and your approach to language learning, and

(14:25):
so like how do what I guess my question for
you is, how do people learn and what kind of
tools can we give them? So so I really went
into a deep dive of studying second language acquisition UM.
I was reading a lot. I was getting into the
research because I was really curious about how does this

(14:48):
thing happen, you know, and so what what at the
bottom line of all of it the way I see it,
all the amazing methods out there, all the not so
amazing method it's uh, at the bottom line, it's just
understanding what we're hearing and then interacting with that over time.

(15:11):
And that's the that's the basics. So if it's you know,
tpr S, TPR story listening, task based language learning, if
it's you know, where are your keys, if it's all
these methods, at the bottom line of it, that's what
it is to me, is understanding what we're listening to
and interacting it, interacting with it over amount of time.

(15:34):
And then underneath that, it's like, if we could make
it as interesting as we can, we are going to
want to interact more with that material with the language.
If we can make it interesting and offer a great
deal of repetition UM, so that the learners can hear
some of the words over and over different things like that.
So that's kind of the baseline of where I'm at

(15:56):
as far as I kind of, I guess teaching and
how can we help others? Um, And one thing that
I love to incorporate is the Plains Indian Sign language.
So my uncle Lanny real bird, he's he's crow, and
we come to find out that we're related. Um, Um,
I think distantly, but we're related. My mother is from

(16:17):
the four birth all. She's a Manda hidatsa Rickara and
Uncle Lannie has a lot of the same relatives are like, hey,
we're relatives, and so we Anyway, he has been pushing
to revitalize the Plains Indian Sign language, and I just
I love that because, um, what is communication? Is it

(16:39):
just words? Is it just talking and listening? What is
How can we communicate? How did we communicate in the past?
You know, we communicated through rock art, We communicated through messages,
through blankets we left for people at a certain crossing
and folding one side of that blanket, one corner of
that blanket. That was communicate ation. We communicated with our hands,

(17:02):
you know. Um. You know the country we call it handtok.
But the Plains Indian Sign language. And so I love
that because we're revitalizing our language while revitalizing Plains Indian
Sign language. And uh, we have stories here in the
quote the country about you know, these two elders that
new handtock and they were in a meeting, and this

(17:24):
whole meeting was going on, and these two alders are
are having a conversation in Plains Indian Sign language, in
handtok and then every now and then they would just
start laughing and they were having just a ball of
a time while this meeting was going on. And that
was very inspiring. But what the hand talk does is
our language reclamation, our language revitalization. The way I see

(17:45):
it anyway is like um, it needs to be open
for everyone, you know, And so with the handtok um,
it's it's it's another thing that we can that helps
us to understand. It's it's visual, you know for those
who have a tough time hearing, you know, it's it's
it's it's part of our whole decolonization process. It's part

(18:09):
of our reclamation process. And so right now, as far
as teaching, I love to teach with Plains Indian Sign
Language or handtock with um, you know, with language and
so and just trying to make it repetitious, trying to
make it fun, trying to make it engaging, interesting and
in a big and in another big part of stories.

(18:31):
Traditionally it's a quote the people. We used to pass
on our ways of life, our teachings through story. And
so if someone maybe did something they weren't supposed to
be doing, um, they wouldn't hit them, they wouldn't holler
at them. They would tell it, possibly tell them a
story you know that embedded values, that embedded the woola quota,

(18:54):
you know, the way of life, the way of thinking
of a quote, the person and so that's so there's
there are different methods to touch on all this stuff,
you know, um, comprehensible input methods. I like Where Are
Your Keys? I like story listening by Dr Bennico Mason
and Dr Crash, And I like Dr Van Patton stuff
on past past based language teaching. I like Blaine Ray

(19:17):
stuff with teaching proficiency through reading and storytelling all that stuff.
You know, it's all good stuff, um. And for teachers
out there, you know, find what works for you and
do it, you know, because I think the underlying thing
of all of it, of teaching and learning is that
it is enjoyable. Because if it's not enjoyable, we're not
gonna last long in either of them, teaching or learning.

(19:40):
So find a system that works, whatever it is, and
just do that over and over. Yeah, one of my
favorite moments is when a learner is able to get
the jokes, because there's a lot of jokes that just
go on and as you sort of come in, especially
things that are sort of like culturally relevant, like this,

(20:01):
the jokes that our uncles would tell us and our
aunties would tell us, you know, uh, And and so
I agree with everything you're saying, Like, I think all
these different methodologies that are being developed and have been
developed are so valuable for us. And just like take
those things and put them in your toolbox and then
figure out what kinds of things work for what particular

(20:24):
moments and also for the learning environments that you're creating.
So some of the approaches that I like to focus
on is creating really safe learning environments where we can
laugh but we're not going to laugh at anybody, and
where we can sort of let's share what happened, but
let's not say who said it if and just in

(20:44):
case we might embarrass somebody if they say you know.
For us, cloud and vagina are just one tiny sound apart,
and so we've had lots of people who have made
that mistake, which is it's fun in the moment, but
then we just want to make sure that everybody's feeling
pretty safe with just using you know. And I think
it comes back to this being familiar, like when you

(21:07):
hear something, how likely are you to understand it? And
when you want to say something, how likely are you
to be able to say it? And then for us,
we we have a lot of conversations around accuracy and
mistakes because I think for a lot of our some
of our older generations, when they see adults learning, they

(21:28):
kind of expect those adults to just be able to
speak like adults. And so we have to sort of say, okay,
well it's gonna be kind of messy for a little while,
which is totally okay as part of the process, because
sometimes we've heard things like if you can't say it right,
don't say it at all, and we try to push
back on that a little bit and say, well, we

(21:48):
can get there, but you have to create these you know,
because you have to look at an adult and without
being condescending, say we're gonna you'll be born again in
the lane, which which sounds beautiful, but that means you'll
be a little baby in a big old body with
a with a big old English brain that wants to
take over all the time. But that also means people

(22:09):
are going to have to give you the grace to
to get it wrong and it will be okay because
we could fix it. We could fix it later if
we just keep talking, if we just keep listening and
don't break out to have these big explanations in English,
which I do sometimes. Uh, but yeah, I think a
lot of these methods are are fabulous. I have seen

(22:29):
a couple of sort of presentations where folks have kind
of hinted at like, if you don't use this method,
it's not going to work, And so I get a
little bit nervous about that stuff. I'm like, you don't
have the magic one and only key, because you have
something that we can use. So if you're out there
doing this work, like, find things that work for you
and adapt them into your culture. Try not to translate

(22:52):
your culture too much to fit the things. Um, but yeah,
I just use everything that you can. Oh oh, time
for advertisements. Loved right back. I'm gonna cheeze. What's happening, babe.
This colonization shipped up you down. You gonna get on

(23:15):
this decolorization. It's time the language revitalization out across North America,
the land of the language coming back into the hands
of future generations where it all blows something to have
the voices be heard, beat all the colonial forces that

(23:36):
try to hold you down. Yeah. So, like I that's
the other thing I think that um we started discussing
was putting emotion first in our language revitalization, in our

(23:59):
language reclamation, because on day one learner might sit in
a class and like, hey, let's start going over how
to greet somebody. But the but with us indigenous people
who went through a lot of trauma, especially trauma around
our language where it was you know, beating out of us,
where we couldn't speak it, where like my like my grandparents,

(24:21):
they didn't teach it to my my dad's generation because
they didn't want them to go through the hardships. You know,
they wanted they were doing it out of love. They
wanted to make it easier on them to try to
you know, um, fitting into the world. I guess, you know,
And so what so when we sit down for day one,

(24:42):
you know, how do we approach that classroom, How do
we approach that learner? How do we make safe places
for them? You know? Do we just jump in and
start going over conjugation tables and patterns and different things
like that, you know? But whereas like me, when I
sat down, I had so much emotions going on highs

(25:02):
but also a lot of low's shame, Why don't I
know this already? I don't know my language? I don't
I should know this already. That that kind of you know,
that thought and man, and you have shame, and then
you also like feel so good that you can understand
a little bit. When you start to understand and make
a few sounds, you feel so good. One of the

(25:23):
first day, one of the first couple of weeks of
language learning, I walked out of the language class. And
it was at the college here, sitting for college, um,
and I had a really great teacher, but I I
walked out of that class and I just broke down
and I just cried, like sobbing, and it was a
good cry, and I didn't know why or where that

(25:44):
came from. It felt so good to just be able
to introduce myself in our language. And so what is that.
You could say it's healing from historical traumas, are you know,
putting the hoop back together within myself or whatever? But
I always say, I really don't know what that was.
So when learners are sitting down, we don't know what

(26:07):
we're going what they're going through, Like we have a
lot of the stories are a lot of the same,
you know, like UM, we have a lot of learners
who we call silent speakers who know the language, they
understand it, but because of the traumas that they went through, UM,
through boarding schools and all of that stuff, you know,

(26:27):
they don't feel comfortable speaking it, you know, in different
things like that. And so it's it's how do we
do that? And it's what's beautiful to those in our
indigenous cultures. We have those ceremonies how to deal with
things like that, We have you know, different things that
can help with with that. So it's it's it's I

(26:51):
don't want to say this, but you know, it's tough
for a non unquoted person to sit down with a
group of beginners and try to sort through all of
that if they've never experienced all of that, you know.
And so also, you know, one thing that really freed
me back to that thing of accuracy and mistakes is
Dr Bill Van Patton said there are no such things

(27:13):
as mistakes and language learning. And I thought that was amazing.
He said, you have the learner may be saying something
that's non native like, but to them it's not a mistake.
That's where their internal system is and we have no
power over their internal system and how quick or how
slow they learned the language. And so I always used
the um my, my granddaughter, she's she just had a

(27:36):
birthday and she um, she turned four. But my granddaughter, Um,
she used to say funny bingo for flamingo. You know,
she would look at a flamingo and she said, oh,
funny bingo. And you know, she's at that stage where
she's starting to make sounds. Um, she's talking now, but
she's at she was at that stage where she's starting

(27:58):
to make sounds. She was starting to play with the
sounds in the language, experiment and explore, and she's at
that that that babila stage, that baby stage. You know,
and so that's how we are as learners too. We
need those safe places to make those mistakes. And so
I always say that, and sometimes it gets taken wrong, like, oh,

(28:19):
this guy doesn't give a damn about being correct and
we're making a whole new language. Is like, no, I'm
not saying that at all. What I'm saying is we'll
get there, but we need this freedom right now, like
exactly like you said, we need this grace, you know.
And when my when my granddaughter said it, you know,
and she says, hi, pack for iPad, you know, and

(28:40):
that stuff is cute, you know, and we and we
love it. And when she when she was through her
when she was going through her face is saying funny bingo.
We'd say say it again, what is that, honey? You know,
funny bingo? And we'd laugh. But it was a good laugh.
It wasn't like, you know, we didn't say no, no, no,
that's wrong, repeat after me, you know, because that, you know,

(29:00):
because that's not how it would have made her feel comfortable.
And I think we understood that she's just learning, and
she's just going the process of acquiring a language. And
so I love what you said about grace, you know,
as beginner learners. Well I remember my when I just
first started, it was all these emotions with not wanting
to mess up, you know, in different things. But learners

(29:23):
need that grace and we need to give ourselves that
grace too, that we're not we're not perfect, and we
don't need to be perfect, you know. And so I
just that's kind of what I always think of whenever,
you know, because I see it a lot, and it's
really important to our elders. And I'm not saying it's
not important. Not our pronunciation isn't good and isn't correct,
But that's something that we're going to figure out more

(29:45):
as we get into the intermediate and more into the
advanced levels. You know. That's just my thought. Yeah, absolutely,
because if if they can just keep talking, they'll they'll
do a lot of self correction. Like we also try
to create these environments where we're like, we're not going
to correct anybody, just keep going because and I think
it's hard for some of us to move away from

(30:07):
that because we feel like we're going to ruin it
and we feel like we're going to change it to
this thing that's no longer what it was which is
which is tough. And so this this tomorrow friend of mine,
his name is Tinnik Pungy. He once said, I speak
my grandmother's language, but I don't speak like my grandmother.

(30:28):
And I thought that was really interesting, you know, because
I aspired to speak like like a lot of people
that I learned from. And there are certain moments where like, okay,
if I'm telling a story from doing a ceremonial speech,
there's certain ways that I have to do that. But
I think there was also this whole other realm of
just very casual language use, with lots of teasing and
laughing and storytelling and commands and do this, don't do that,

(30:53):
a whole bunch of stuff that that was taken from us.
And so as we rebuild these realms, we sometimes had
to figure out, well, what is that thing? And if
we're not sure, we have to reconstruct it in some ways.
And so another one of my teachers, Dr William Wilson,
who I called Pela, he said, we're going to be
learning an artificial form of Hawaiian and you just have

(31:16):
to be okay with that, and it's going to naturalize
over time. But you learn this, you're gonna sound kind
of like a robot. And we had an elder that
we recently lost. His name was Kingisti David Kantzick, and
he come into our classes quite a bit. And one
time we're doing dialogue exercises and when you're nervous, you know,
you're just nervous, and so students are, you know, they're

(31:38):
saying things without too much emotion. This wa saw it,
he too, wu Yeah, hey, you know. And so he
gets up in front of everybody and he starts encouraging them,
but also just sort of getting super emotional himself and saying,
you are not a robot, you are a human b

(32:00):
you know, and so and then we end up having
a a bad acting contest, and the students had these
other ideas on how to just loosen things up and
just go for it. And it was very fun and
super over the top, but it kind of loosened them
up a lot because we we we said, we'll we'll
get you ready for these language use environments where you

(32:22):
kind of gotta have it together and you gotta you know,
if you speak at a funeral, if you got to
speak at a one of our ceremonies. But we say
we'll build you up to that right now, just do
the easy stuff and then just sort of focus on
continuing to build your confidence and your ability and to
encourage people and to create these safe places that where

(32:42):
our languages are used, because for us, our language doesn't
exist in too many spaces, so we're also trying to
take those spaces back. Whether we're just sort of saying, well,
let's put the language on the walls at least, and
then the next step is let's go there and speak
the language. And so it's really exciting to be part
of that. And another thing that may not be as exciting,

(33:04):
but I think is important is this conversation around data sovereignty,
which I think is something that comes up based on
folks who come in and and do work in our communities.
And I think there's a lot of people who come
in and do wonderful stuff. And you talked a little
bit as well about what's the role of non indigenous peoples,

(33:25):
And we're in some of those conversations all the time
because for me, ah, if people live here, I want
them to learn our language. I want them to so
that when they're around us, they can understand it and
if they want to, they can speak it and it
becomes a language of the land and of the place.
And know, not everybody feels the same. There are some

(33:45):
communities who say, like, if you're not one of us,
like you don't get to learn our language, and that's
their decision. But I think one of the things that
gets complicated is when someone comes in who's not indigenous
to the language, they're not a descendant of the language,
and they do work in the language, and then they
turn around and tell someone who is indigenous that they

(34:08):
can't access it, or they can't do stuff with it,
or they have to get permission, or they get humiliated
or made fun of for the stuff that they're trying
to do. When the non indigenous person becomes the experts,
and then you know, so like these race relations and
power relations come into play in some of these situations. Yeah,

(34:31):
so that's that's kind of what we've been dealing with
our I guess in the last couple of years, I
was going on a long time, but this really got um,
this really became I guess I ran into this space
first within the last couple of years. My grandmother died
from COVID August, and she was a big part of

(34:53):
our our language work up here on Standing Rock Um
at the college, at the with the tribal program, a
different things like that. And she was she was my person,
you know. I would call her, ask her about a translation,
she would always give it, pick her up, take her
out to dinner, you know. Every time we get in
the car, I turned my recorder on, and when she

(35:14):
wanted to gossip or say something she had, I was
looking at me and say, takoja, is that thing on?
So I knew that it was time to turn it
off and that she would just want to vent and
um sometimes you know, she would just she would just
vent in Lakota and she just wanted to speak her language.
And at times she knew I couldn't understand her, but
she would just go and go and go, you know,

(35:35):
because it was um it was a place for her
to speak. So she she passed away, and she had
worked with the Lakota Language Consortium, who the linguistic director,
whose name is jan ulrich Um. He's in a documentary
called If Only I Were Native American or Becoming Indian
in the Czech Republic. Um he's he's wearing he has feathers,

(35:56):
wearing buckskin he's a live action role playing being an
Indigenous person carrying at Chinoopa one of our sacred pipes. UM.
And they take sweat lodge in there one of our
sacred ceremonies. He's singing this a buffalo dance song, different
things like that, and so UM. He is their linguistic
director for the Lakota Language Consortium, as well as Wilhelmia

(36:18):
who is from Austria. He lives in Indiana, Bloomington, Indiana
by the way of Austria. UM. And so these two
individuals they started the Lakota Language Consortium UM, and my
grandmother had worked for this organization. What they did was
they got our data from Indiana University and Colorado University.

(36:39):
So right, there is one thing. So we have non
non la quote the people asking non unquote the institutions
if they can use our data. So Colorado and Indiana
throughout the sixties, seventies, eighties, whatever it was, forties, even
way back with the Deliria and Bull West stuff. UM.
But what what they did was they would send their

(37:00):
researchers out Raymond de Molly, Douglas Park from Indiana and
Guy Taylor and uh Douglas, Rude I think his name
was from Colorado. They would go to our rez um.
I'm not sure what their intentions are. Maybe they were
they had good intentions, maybe they just wanted to help
different things. But what they did was they they recorded
a lot, they made books, they translated different things. Um.

(37:22):
Now I in my current stay, I see that as
as extraction, and so they extracted a lot of our language.
They set these up at college databases. Um. At times
they were behind pay walls. But Colorado, to their credit
and Indiana, to their credit, they're trying to rectify these
situations and so. But anyway, the Locota Language Consortium, they

(37:43):
got the data from these individuals, are language data. And
so I'm going to preface all that with. So I
asked Joan Alric from my grandmother's recordings, and what he
said was that they needed to grant to give it
back and that they do high quality work. What I
didn't understand at that time was how they viewed our
data very paternalistically, um, and that they're going to control

(38:05):
how my own grandmother's recordings and how our standing rock
recordings are going to be given back to us, you know,
and so um what So I didn't feel comfortable with that.
I was really awakened to some in that moment. What
is going on? You know? Eventually he did give recordings
to He gave some recordings to my my uncle of

(38:27):
our grandmother, but um, we lost control of her recordings
and we still don't have control of her recordings. So um,
that's there's two things going on. So right now, Standing
Rock is trying to negotiate our The LLC is trying
to go to negotiate with Standing Rock to give our
stuff back. But they want to give back, um, the
copyrights to this stuff, but cold onto the to the

(38:51):
licensing and authorities. The problem with that is as if
they hold on to the licensing and authorities, then we
lose control. So I would tell them to to to
put take down my grandmother's recordings. You guys don't have permission,
different things like that. They would erase my comments or
they would hide my comments and then um, they wouldn't
take them down. And so if we lose the control,

(39:11):
if if they continue to have the authorities and licensing,
we lose control and I can't get those recordings taken down.
So how are they what is there legal standing? How
do they have standing standing? Of any any kind. Because
what happened was UM. Throughout this extraction process. Did all

(39:32):
these linguisted UM? Crazy Buffalo jan Rich did Wilhelm Iya?
Did they go through our institutional review process at sitty
Inville College? What were the waivers? Like? Can they produce
the waivers for when they came through our reservations and
our nations? UM? They continually say that their nonprofit, while
if they're a nonprofit institution, they have to follow these

(39:53):
different things, if these academic kind of things that they
needed to go through, and then they didn't, and so
the other a thing. There's another conversation here that goes
beyond UM. You know, kind of our languages at nonprofits
and how nonprofits often exploit and extract our people and
so UM. Nonprofits are a little scary to me because

(40:16):
they can get two sources of income. From what I've
seen is that they can. They can still get the
government grants because their nonprofit if I will want three
c and they can apply for grants and get grants.
But then they can also have bookstores and they can
also sell stuff. So what's the difference to me? You know,
So what's the difference if you can do both that's so.

(40:36):
But but there's a whole discussion there too. That's you know, um,
that's another discussion that involves data sovereignty and how our likenesses,
how our histories, how our statistics, how are our intellectual property,
how are our photos? All these different things, how they're
used by entities to get themselves funds. You know, um,

(40:59):
all this power the stuff and how they how they
use that to get funds and different things and so um.
But within what I was going through was this data
sovereignty fight with the language with my grandmother, and so
we're still involved, we're still going through it. What what
ended up happening though, is um our tribe banned them

(41:19):
on May three through the bad Man clause of the
Fort Larmy Treaty Article one, and that if anyone kind
of doesn't do right by clip the people, we have
that power within our constitution to ban these individuals. We
banned these individuals um and on May three. And so
that's important because after all of this, despite everything, on

(41:41):
January nine, June nine, June nine, they were still selling
the recording that my grandmother did End of the World's
Story on the Language Conservancy website as well as the
la Quota Language Consortium website. And so my wife always
says that she says, say this, people know that you
didn't start out to be this. So in the beginning,

(42:04):
I was kind of learning from their products. Um, the
teachers I learned from, we're taught by them. It was
kind of their narratives and traditions and different things, and
so UM I used to defend them on the internet
and by simply asking for my grandmother's recordings, I didn't
know that I would go on this this total kind
of roller coaster for two years. UM. But now in reflection,

(42:29):
I'm very very grateful for it. Because when we think
about data sovereignty, think about, um, what happens to a story.
So if we sit back and trace a story from
from what happens to it, so you know, our people
have carried these stories form for generations, thousands and thousands
of years, you know, they carry these stories forward to
the next generation. The next generation learns them, okay, and

(42:52):
we get to modern times and our people want to
want to help and they want to give on that
story anthropologists. Alinguist comes pops down a waiver in front
of them. What does that waivers say? Maybe they don't
do a waiver, and but they record that story, all right,
But um, so what happens to that story from that
point is we may lose control of that story. And

(43:15):
a story that was ours and is ours, belongs to
our children, belongs to us. It could get exploited, if
you get profited off of it, could end up in
an academic journal, that could end up in somebody's um,
you know, lecture, So somebody's career could be built, someone's
you know, um all these kind of things. And so

(43:36):
with that story, then if that's a sacred story, we
we have different protocols around stories. Some protocols are some
stories you can only tell in them winter time, Some
you can only tell at night. Um, there's certain stories
for different times. Some you can't you're not supposed to record.
Some you can only you know, share when one of
our chinoo buzz is filled in different things. But what

(43:57):
happened with the Lakota Language Consortium in their waiver, they
said that they have unrestricted right to copy right now
and in all future formats. Meaning if our elder sat
down and they just want to help, a lot of
times I've I've sat down with elders in the past
and put waivers in front of them and they just
sign it. They don't even look at it. They're like, yeah,
I always want to help, and elder does that, and

(44:19):
then they share this story and that story is lost,
you know, at least in my experience, because we're still
trying to get the stuff back from my grandmother, you know.
And so what we're talking about is and then those stories.
What happens to those stories is that intellectual property could
be copyrighted by outside individuals and then it could be

(44:43):
controlled by non unquote the people. These stories that are
birthright that our ancestors, of our ancestors that were passed down,
we have to ask if we can use them, if
we can teach them in class, if we can learn,
if we can you know whatever. And what happened to
me was I run this la quota, me and my
Missue Dallas Nelson, who is a Thundervalue Language Initiative director, UM,

(45:09):
we run this language reclamation group on Facebook. And what
I said was I discovered this copyright and it says
you have to ask this and just what the copyrights say?
And I said, why do I have to ask outside
entity if I can use my own language, you know,
And so I said, well, I'm gonna test this. And
what I did was I got the la Quota Language

(45:29):
Consortium grammar book, which was subsidized by tribes, which was
subsidized by national or by grants, by federal grants and
different things like that, and so how can how can
non looquote to people with subsidized funds copyright the Quota
people's language. So this is what I did. The question
I was I had and so I was like, well,

(45:51):
I'm going to open source this. I'm gonna share the
lessons from this book, this Quota Language grammar book, which
was subsidized by the Shine rivers to right, I'm going
to share this book and I'm gonna see what happens.
And then on January six, twenty one, what I did
was I shared this book. I shared this lesson on
memorize on the language learning app, which is just you know,

(46:13):
many of the language people who listening to this probably
know what memorizes um. But I shared that I made
a lesson on memorize. And what happened was on January six,
I got a copyright infringement from the Loquota Language Consortium
and they memories said that the rightful owner of this
copyright has requested that you take down this this lesson.
And so within forty eight hours that lesson was taken down.

(46:37):
So this is a loquota language learning group. I am
a teacher. This is in the field of education, which
says that we're supposed to have a lot of latitude
when it comes to education and the copyrights and the
intellectual property and different things. And I'm a loquote to person, right,
And so that was a big wake up call of

(47:00):
you know, all of this stuff is how did we
as a people lose control of our language, you know?
And what is this set up for the future of
our children? How much are they going to have to
pay to see this stuff, to use this stuff? You know,
they're gonna have to buy their own language back. But
it's their right. And so I think part of this

(47:21):
data sovereignty is us in our generation making sure that
their rights are honored, their language right is honored, and
that they don't have to buy it back. They don't
have to go through a some linguist, you know, that
they don't have to go through a college database, different
things like that. Um, they've tried to backtrack about this,

(47:42):
one of their board members lied to Native America calling
about this. Um said that it this didn't exist, it
didn't happen. And they made the point that their copyright
gives access, which I don't I don't know how that's possible.
But so they pretend that this didn't happen, you know,
and so um, and then they backtracked and said, well, um,

(48:05):
they were accusing me of plagiarism, which whoa like, if
you really, if you really unravel that what these linguists
do non there's non indigenous linguists, if you really want
to talk about, everything they've done is plagiarism, you know,
because they've taken it from our people, they've taken it

(48:27):
from databases, they've taken it from everywhere. You know. They
can't create anything original, and so how can you accuse
a quote the person of plagiarizing their own language that
they've already plagiarized, you know. And so what we're talking
about is two different systems of looking at these things.

(48:48):
And so within the American laws, you have the copyright laws,
and so we're talking about something different. We're talking about
the birthrights of our indigenous people in our anguages, you know,
kids are Yeah, you go to cut you on. It's

(49:09):
a difficult thing. Be brief, have strength, We'll be right
back you on. Once I thought about a million birds
all around the world sharing their songs, thinking about the
ways they have lived and they're gonna live, and this

(49:31):
is the way they're away. Yeah, cock to see wochen
yaka m h. Yeah, I'm gonna cheese. Thank you for

(49:57):
sharing that, And I guess my first response honest as
I'm very sorry to hear about your grandmother and also
about the additional pain of not having access to things
that she made. And so a lot of times I
feel like our our speakers and our elders are told like,
this is work for the people, and so they go

(50:17):
ahead with it, and then to find out it's not accessible.
And we've encountered things like this as well in some
ways where it's like you just that's my grandma. I
want to listen to them, they're they're gone now, and
then to hear that that's not possible, or to get
some sort of bureaucratic methodology of saying, oh, yeah, what
you just gotta do things these things or would love

(50:38):
to but these complicated systems, whatever the things are, And
I've got an email sitting in my inbox tell me
I'm plagiarizing. And I've got another email in my inbox saying, uh,
someone else is gonna threaten to tell everybody how terrible
I am and all the mistakes I make, and they
can't be quiet about it anymore, you know. And so

(51:00):
I guess, I guess I'll start with saying, we had
a couple of early linguists who came among us in
the nineteen sixties. Uh not taw Jillian's story and shot
you qua Constance Nash. And I want to give them
credit because as we talk about non indigenous people in linguists,
I think there's some who set a really good example.

(51:20):
So one of the stories I heard about them is
when they were doing work in the nineteen sixties, like
white people didn't learn our language, like very we have
stories about the two or three people who ever did,
who lived in our territory, and these two they learned it,
and they went to go talk to some speakers, and
they knocked on someone's door and she opens the door

(51:41):
and here's these two young white ladies who start speaking
thing get to the to her. So she slams the
door on them because she thought they were ghosts, you know.
And then as she starts to interact with them and
talk with them, Uh, they did really really good work.
They harvested a lot of stuff. They tried to figure
things out. And I was able to have a conversation

(52:02):
with him on the phone, uh, she probably fifteen years ago,
and I said, can I use the stuff that you
did in your dictionary? Can I make another dictionary someday?
And they said, hey, that's your language. You do what
you want with it. We just tried to help. Now
we that's doesn't belong to us at all. And I thought, like,
that's that is your response, that is your responsibility. I

(52:25):
think my hope. And also there's another one Coutan Fredrika
dey Laguna, who worked in Angoon and Yakatat and then
she did a lot of work and when she uh,
she always had people there to translate and to retranslate
and to do a lot of stuff to make sure

(52:46):
that she was doing as much as she could. And
then when she passed away, she made sure that all
the stuff just went back to the communities as well
as money. She's she sent money to go build a
facility to store some of this stuff. But coming back
to I think my hope is that both UH indigenous

(53:07):
nations will will develop some policies and language sort of
if there's any sort of regional language office, that they'll
develop some policies and practices. And as we sort of
look to the future linguists who are going to be
working with us, that they they're trained to not be
exploitative and to not see these things as something you

(53:30):
can take, uh And so like what I like to
say is come help be a part of it, Listen
to what people need, try not to assume that you
know what they need more than they do. And then also,
don't claim anything as your own. You won't own anything.
You don't have rights to these things. You can certainly

(53:51):
interact and you can be part of this atmosphere of vieuse,
but then then there's gonna be times where you're not
going to be the one who gets to stand up
and talk, and you're not going to be the one
who gets to, uh say who gets to use it
and who doesn't because you don't have that authority. And
so academia and and laws and stuff like they're they're

(54:13):
these universal things, but you can't operate free of systemic racism,
and so I think there has to be something in
place as well, maybe from the federal level, that protects
indigenous people's because this type of exploitation, it's not an
isolated thing. It's not like, oh yeah, this happened to
the Lakota and to the thing get but no one else, right,

(54:33):
It happened all over the place and it and it
will continue to happen because someone can make a buck,
and someone could get published, and someone could uh get
their name out there, and and then just weird things
happen that there's there's a lot on the line, there's
a lot at stake, and we want to recognize people
who do good work, but at this but if you

(54:54):
start talking about who can do what with it, I
think you're overstepping your balance because you don't have that authority.
You're not born into this, You're not you don't have
the lineage. And there's also you just can't operate free
of racism because I think it exists a lot of
things that I hear smacks of superiority and then also exploitation.

(55:15):
And so I'm really thankful that you shared that with us.
I I hope the journey is just getting better and
better and better in terms of how that kind of
stuff goes. And I guess, as we start to wrap
up our conversation, um, what what keeps you inspired? And
what do you think we'll keep other people inspired? Well,

(55:38):
so what keeps me inspired is just our kids. You know.
I was talking to my Mimi Dallas. I saw what
they were all they were doing at Thunder Valley yesterday,
and he was talking about his boy and I don't
want to say his boy, but his name, but he
was talking about his boy, how he understands the language
and he can get up in front of a whole
group of people and pray, and he can sing the

(55:59):
song without fear. He said, you know he's And I
was looking at that, you know how how kind of
how kind of shy I am, and different things like that.
And we have children like that who are walking around
without kind of the the shackles, I guess, the mental
shackles and different things. You know. Um, my daughter correcting

(56:21):
me in our language. You know. One time I was
trying to tell her to get down and she was
she was like, Dad, that's not right. And then I
was like, oh yeah, you're right, and she's like, you
say it this way, and she corrected me. And that
was one of the most beautiful experiences I've had. And so,
like I it was just a couple of hours later
it hit me like, wow, did that even just talking

(56:42):
about it now that kind of makes me emotional, but
like just that, you know, um, just seeing that all
this stuff, all the language stuff that we we go
through in different things and my daughter, you know, she
she can she still gets up and she praised in
the language for you know, over food and different things
like that. And so that's that's the stuff that you know,

(57:06):
inspires me to keep going. Um, and it's it's it's
I was telling a friend, you know, like it's kind
of corny, but language gives you a life because it does,
you know. It Just it feels good when you when
you're speaking your language. It feels good when you put
on a recording and you can understand it. It feels
good when your elders are speaking and they're joking and
you and you understand and you get it and you're

(57:28):
not just fake laughing. You know, all they're laughing, I'm
gonna bust out of laugh It feels good. It's like, um,
you know, it really helps. So I'm one who's had
mental health problems, you know, and I've been counseling and
different things like that, and and it really helps with
my mental health. It it does, you know, it makes

(57:48):
me feel really good inside. Um. And so it's it's
kind of hard to put into words a lot of it,
you know. UM, And just kind of like what you're saying.
I think about those like those um, kind of those linguists.
I think a lot of what you said was in
their reactions. So when you ask and they say no,
it's hers like, hey, we didn't know, you know. I

(58:10):
That says a lot, you know, in someone's reactions instead
of hey, no, we're gonna make a press release about you.
You're a bad person. You know. It's you know, all that.
So we have true allies, you know, and I just
I don't I don't ever really say it. But you know,
a good friend of mine, Elliott Banister, their name is

(58:31):
They're an amazing ally. They stay humble, you know, and
they just stay on the grind. And then another linguist
we've had is Armic who's at us D and then
he was at Virginia. But they were humble there. They
are humble, and they just you know, they work, like
you said, um and so I don't want to give that,
you know, I don't want to give that out there

(58:51):
that I'm saying, no, no, no, no. We can't have
any anybody else, you know, because I I'm along the
lines with you and that you know, when we have
true allies, it can really assist us in what we do.
Um and so yeah, and I'm with you that, like man,
there's a gap between the Arts and Crafts Act, the
Indian Arts and Crafts Act, and then NAGPRA. And we

(59:15):
need a specific federal act in the vein of NANPRA
or one of these acts that specifically protects our indigenous languages,
that specifically protects intellectual property of our indigenous languages. Because
everyone says, well, you can't copyright a language, That's true,
but you can copyright the intellectual property of a language.

(59:39):
And so like what happened in the New Yorker I
was reading with the pen of Scott is that an individual,
non penep Scott linguists went around making a dictionary. Um.
There their speakers had passed and so he was the
only one with the dictionary. So he came to own
intellectual property of that language, and there was no other dictionary,
and so like that's in know, eventually he his family

(01:00:03):
gave it to the aps or somebody and they're working
with giving it back to the pentop Scott and it
and it's and and then it could end a little
better than the direction that it could have taken. But
for instances like that, tribes need to protect our intellectual property,
you know. Um. And so I'm totally with you that
we need those you know that we need those. Um,

(01:00:24):
we need acts and different things. And when linguists come understand,
like so I was reading an article and this linguist
was saying how she this non indigenous linguists was saying
how she wanted to go and help the people, and
and she was like she was there, and she was
she was planning on doing these translations and these books
and these whatever. But at the end of the day,

(01:00:46):
you know, it was just using her privilege to babysit
kids because they got it. You know, they had speakers,
they had classes and different things, and so like non
indigenous linguists, you know, may come with a lot a
lot of privilege, you know, um, and so that's kind
of a thing that I was thinking about whenever you

(01:01:08):
were talking. Was that story of that that woman that
I'm gonna do all this and I'm gonna do all
that and at the end of the days, you know,
it was just kind of helping out with different stuff
that didn't even really directly involved the language, but it did,
you know. And so I gotta find the article. But
that was that's what made me think of that. Yeah,
And so well, I guess the people are making press

(01:01:29):
releases saying you're bad, then here's the press release from
this podcast Ray taking the lives eyes and stay out
of his damn way. And if you're a lawmaker, h
just put in a clause to something. However, y'all make laws,
whatever magic you use. Uh that If if you are

(01:01:51):
a if you're a linguist and you tell a Native
American person that they're plagiarizing by using their own language
and whatever way they want to, then ask I go
straight to Alcatraz and you don't pass go don't collect
your NSF grant or any H grant or whatever grant
you're trying to get. Is you take the don't don't

(01:02:17):
put the colonizer in five oh one C three. I
like that. I like that. I'm gonna don't play giarize
that from me. Oh that was another awesome. Well, it's
been really good talking with you. Uh I wish you

(01:02:39):
all the very best with your language work and that,
you know. I guess I'll just share one quick story.
Is us in how VIII studying with those folks and
they said, you want to come to this graduation of
the preschool the language nest I said, yeah, yeah, sounds good.
So I go, and uh I see this this big
it's a big thing. They all they're all there's a

(01:03:00):
and they all had their uniforms on their school uniforms.
I was like, well, this is a big deal. And
then uh I saw this line of parents and their kids.
They're cakey. And this friend of mine comes up to
me and he says, and I look at him, and
he's got big tears in his eyes. And I thought, oh,

(01:03:20):
because I already felt like I was gonna cry just
watching these kids. Gradually was like, this is gonna be
a wonderful day full of emotion. And he he looked
at me and he just starts like he's got big tears.
In his eyes and he just says, he made your
generational transmission. And then he just goes off crying and
I was like, yeah, I feel your brother. That's that's
what it is. And he came back later after we ate.

(01:03:42):
You know, I watched these kids. They get up and
they make a speech in Hawaiian and one of their
parents does and that and most people are crying and
it's just tears of triumphant joy. And the friend of
mine he comes up to me. His name is Kobe,
and he comes up to me later and he says,
I'm very sorry I cried in your face. He's like,
what I was trying to tell you is I looked
at this big line of parents and their babies, and

(01:04:05):
those parents were my babies when I was teaching thing,
and I thought, that's it. That's that's what we're doing.
That's what we're here for. That's what's going to happen. Uh. So,
best of luck with everything. Thanks for hanging out with
us today and for sharing some of these things and
making some good jokes at the end. Thanks thanks man,

(01:04:26):
Thanks for having me. I really appreciate the talk. And um,
everyone go and subscribe follow my friend. Here's work and
again thank you. Oh yeah, and where can people find you?
Follow you all that good stuff? So I have a
TikTok at red charging um r E G c h

(01:04:46):
A R g I n G. My Twitter is at
ray taking alive. Um yeah, check it out. Fabulous. All right,
gonna cheese. We'll talk to you later. That is gonna
do it. Yeah away unsure uh yuhan noctua tatars where

(01:05:15):
hostile kuk a two d our t e. That's it, folks,
that's the way. This one's gonna wrap up. Wherever you are.
I hope strength is within you. Don't let people lock
up your language is. Check out other podcasts on the
Next Up Initiative Partition Black Fat, Fem and Beauty translated.

(01:05:38):
They are wonderful pieces. This has been produced by Daniel Goodman.
This is the Tongue Unbroken Steam Gonna Cheeche eight