November 17, 2023 • 43 mins
In this episode, Tudor interviews Jeff Jones, lead pastor of Chase Oaks Church, about the need to rebrand Christianity to appeal to the younger generation. They discuss the decline in church attendance, the perception of Christianity among young people, and how to approach controversial topics in a more loving and inclusive way. Jones emphasizes the importance of managing the brand of Christianity, presenting beliefs in a humble and gentle manner, and creating an environment where anyone can be accepted into a relationship with Jesus. He also addresses the negative perception of Christians in society and the need for love to be the guiding principle. The Tudor Dixon Podcast is part of the Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Podcast Network - new episodes debut every Monday, Wednesday, & Friday. For more visit TudorDixonPodcast.com
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Tutor Dixon Podcast. I am really excited
about today's conversation. I honestly don't know which direction it's
going to go. I read a recent op ed in
the Dallas Morning News about the biggest problem facing Christianity,
so I was, of course completely intrigued. I've been accused
of not being Christian enough. I've been accused of being
(00:23):
part of that problem with Christianity. Maybe I'm too Christian.
I don't know. For some people, I don't know what
that means. But we have Pastor Jeff Jones with us
today and he says that it is a brand problem
in the Christian faith, which I am. I'm like, okay,
what does that mean? So I feel like there could
be parts today that we agree on, and there might
be parts that we disagree on, but I'm really anxious
(00:45):
to get to the conversation, and regardless of what we think,
I know we are both going to agree that we
want to ensure that followers of Jesus have a strong
spiritual health. And I say that because I don't want
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let's get back to spiritual health. Our guest today Jeff Jones.
Jeff is a lead pastor of Chase Oaks Church. It's
(02:11):
a multi site church in Dallas, and the author of
the book Rebranding Christianity. Thank you so much, Jeff for
being here.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Thank you so much. I'm looking forward to the conversation.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Well, I'm anxious to get to it. So you said
that this is going to help us have this conversation
at Thanksgiving. I know that Thanksgiving is right around the corner.
There's a lot of conversations like this. I actually got
a message from my mother in law last night saying
she's excited to talk about my podcast from a few
days ago over Thanksgiving. So I'm not sure where that's
going to go. So tell me what we're doing wrong,
(02:45):
because we've obviously the church has been shrinking. You talk
in the article about it used to be ninety percent
of people we're going to church, and now we've reduced
down to sixty percent. We're losing the younger generation. I mean,
and I've seen this in my own family, my sister
in laws in her twenties and their real church goers.
So what happened.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Such a such a great question.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
So yeah, when you look at if you want to
get depressed, let's say you're having a good day and
you want to just get a little discouraged, all you
have to do is google gen Z and Christianity, right,
and you'll see the repulsion of that generation and the
exodus of that generation, and and a lot of that
is about how Christianity is perceived. And so in the
(03:30):
book Rebrain and Christianity, and what we're talking about is
that we who are as followers are given the responsibility
to manage the brand so to speak. I mean, he said,
this is how you'll be known, and if we're not
known that way, then we have a problem.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
And so you know the.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
So what we'd love to see, right is to gain
influence as Christians and culture, because that's good for culture, that's.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Good for everything.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
When it happens, we're losing luence, and there's all kinds
of reasons for that. But I believe we have to
take responsibility as Christians for how we're perceived and how
we're managing the brand of Christianity. And we can talk
about what is the brand of Christianity, right, But but
I you know the faith of the next generation is
at stake, and that's why I wrote the book. I
(04:19):
really didn't want to write a book. I'm not a
controversial person. I don't enjoy that there's some controversial things
in there, and I don't expect everybody to agree with
everything that's in there. But I couldn't on my watch
continue to see the next generation leaving Christianity. And I
just had to ask myself the question is what is
(04:41):
the faith and what is the faith of the next
generation worth? And I think it's worth just about everything.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
So what does that mean? Because I know I think that.
I mean in my church, I would say that there's
a constant conversation, a pretty regular conversation that they're there
are truths in the Bible that are tough. There is
a calling on Christians that is different than the average person,
and sometimes that can be a hard pill to swallow
(05:11):
because it means you can't live a life that is
filled with sin. So how do you reconcile that? Because
I think some critics of yours would say, well, you're
offering a watered down version of what the Bible is saying,
so argue against that.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
Yeah, yeah, I certainly don't want us to be less
of Jesus called us to be, but much more if
Jesus called us to be. And in his bottom line,
which is really interesting, of all the things he could
have said, you know, in the this is how you
should be known, this is this is your thing, this
is how we roll.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
And he could have named a lot of things.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
You should be known as the most moral people on
the planet, which that's a good thing to be. You
should be known as the most right people on the planet, which, well,
we have truth. It's good to be right, way better
than being wrong. You know, there's lots of ways he
we could they could have given us the brand. But
what he said in the New Command is this is
how people will know you're my followers if you love
people the way I love you.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
So what do you the way we should be known?
Speaker 1 (06:11):
What do you think Christians are doing that's turning off
this this young generation. I mean, I know that when
I was running for office, abortion was a big issue, right,
that was the biggest issue, and so that was kind
of the spiritual issue for Christians. It was like, you're
that was how you were judged. Are you going to
(06:33):
stand for life? But then this next generation. A lot
of the young people in that generation felt like that
was so alienating to them. But on the subject of life,
I mean, where is their wiggle room on your own
feeling toward it?
Speaker 2 (06:50):
You know?
Speaker 1 (06:51):
So how do you reconcile that? How do you bring
people around to an issue like that?
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Sure, so you know, I'm a.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Pastor and I'm a bibliss right, so I certainly believe
in the value of every life.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Including the unborn.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
So positionally there's no wiggle room, you know, to change
our position on life and on But the New Testament
talks a whole lot not only about our position and
how holding on to truth because I believe it's loving
to hold onto truth. I don't believe it's loving to
act like truth is not truth. And we can talk
(07:28):
more about that, But the Bible talks a whole lot
about how we as Christians posture ourselves in a way
that it gives every opportunity for people to be pulled
toward what we believe, as opposed to be repulsed by
what we believe. And so when you say, well, what's
gone wrong? I think, to be honest, and I'm part
(07:49):
of it, I'm not throwing rocks from the outside. I'm
a pastor of an evangelical church in Dallas, Texas, and
I think I don't think we've postured ourselves as well
as we could. And I think there's times that we've
entered into an a polarized world. We've entered into the
polarization and the vitriol as opposed to rising above that.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
It demonstrating a lot of Jesus.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
So do you think that there are two? Are you
saying there are too many Christians out there that, like
the Pharisees, we're wearing the scripture on their sleeve, that
are like pulling that out and saying, well, according to
my Bible right here, you're wrong. This is not what
you should be doing. And so unless you are following
this exactly, I can't love you.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
I think that is part of it, and that's the
way you were perceived.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
I don't think anybody would want to be perceived that
way or think they're doing that, but it's the way
it can come across. Right when come across in our
rightness and our desire to have our position valued and honored,
and we believe it's best when that happens.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Of course, we do because we believe it's true.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
But if we represent that truth in a way that
where we can across as a bully or the least
likely people to listen. You know, the New Testament tells
us to be humble and gentle to everyone and at
all times, and.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
That's not easy to do.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
And so when we violate our posture, when we violate tone,
and the New Testament talks a whole lot about tone
and a whole lot about posture and how we engage
our culture. When we don't engage in a compelling way
that we actually do truth to disservice, we push people away.
(09:36):
And what we really want to do is create a
sense of pull, not push. Create a curiosity. Like Peter
said to the Christians in Rome, to live in such
a way that you silence the people who say bad
things about you if I make them a shame they
ever did because of you the way you live your life.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on
the Tutor Dixon podcast. I mean, in the Bible, I
think that it's it's to me Jesus is saying you
are in the world, you are not of the world,
So you are to be in the world in teaching
(10:16):
and be living like me in the world and draw
people to Christ so that when you are no longer
in this world, you go to Heaven. You save people. Right,
So he obviously we know that he spoke to people
in the Bible that the teachers and the rabbis were like,
(10:37):
oh my goodness, this guy is not he's not a
Jew because you can't do that. You know, that's against
the rules. Moses told us you can't do that. How
could he do this if this is against the rules.
And so there was a lot of I mean, obviously
they were they crucified him, right, They're like this, we
got to get rid of this guy. He's a bad guy.
So how do you how do you showed that he
(11:01):
was loving? But but there were moments though, where he
still said you can't do this. You know when he
when he went and overturned the tables in the temple,
he was saying, you still there are still rules. There
are rules. I think that people come in and they say, well,
he came in and with the New Testament, he threw
out all the rules, but he didn't throw out the rules.
(11:22):
So how do you bring people Because I think that
you talked about culture. Culture has become no rules. You know,
we don't have we don't have we don't punish crime.
We don't want people to get in trouble if they
don't have their assignment at school. So you know, we're
not going to grade anymore. I mean, we've become a
society of no rules. But Jesus didn't say there are
(11:43):
no rules, so how do you? And I think that's
been a bit of the turn off with Christianity is
I don't want to follow the rules, you know, I
don't want to have to go someplace where they tell
me this is what we expect of you. And even
if you are loving and you are drawing people in,
so I guess I would say. You listen to my
(12:03):
podcast about going to Bible study for the first time,
and that's how I felt. I'm like, oh, no, these
people are going to make me change who I am,
and there's this fear of changing who you are. And
it was this message of when you become a Christian,
your life is going to change. The people around you
are going to change. You're going to choose different people
and that's scary. But they didn't force me to do that.
(12:26):
It was just a change that happened to me as
I became grew deeper and deeper in my faith. But
how do you get people there?
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Yeah, I think your story is a great illustration of
grace plus truth over time leads to transformation. And so
when Jesus came, you know, John tells us and John
won that he came full of grace and full of truth.
And he's really careful about how her words it. He
didn't say he came for grace sixty percentury.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
He was full of both.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
He never compromised grace and ever compromise truth because it's
not gracious to compromise truth. And the greatest truth in
the world is grace, so you know, and so he
came full of grace and full of truth. But how
you see Jesus relate is the order is really important.
So he always led with grace and then he pointed
(13:19):
people to truth. And the way I talk about that
is he had a wide welcome to a narrow path,
and he had a narrow path because it's good and
wonderful and perfect. Like Paul says, you know in Romans twelve,
it's good. You know, God's truth is not random, it's
not arbitrary. He made the world. He knows how human
flourishing will work, so it wouldn't be loving for us
(13:40):
to act like that's not true. Right, we want to
point people to truth. But he had a wide welcome
to a narrow path, and that path gets more narrow
over time as we open up ourselves to hopefully relationship
with Jesus then begins to change us over time. But
it's grace polus, truth over time. So if you are
familiar with the b and I know you are, but
(14:01):
listeners like the woman caught in adultery, and they bring
her right, and he says, grace, I don't condemn you,
but then truth. Right, he says, but go and sin
no more, don't do this anymore. And then he looks
at his disciples and he said, the son of Man,
talking about himself, did not come to condemn the world,
(14:21):
but to save it. And so he's not condemning her
but saving her from a life of sin and just saying, hey,
this is you can do so much better. Don't do
this right, but it's grace and welcome. I don't condemn you,
plus truth over time. And therefore you know, if I'm
going to relate like Jesus, then I'm going to have
(14:43):
the widest welcome. I'm going to be the most loving, welcoming, gracious, kind, gentle,
listening person on the planet. But in relationship over time, right,
I'm going to share truth. I'm going to point to truth.
And if I'm doing that well, We're told to relate
to culture, and the early Christians did it. I mean,
(15:05):
it's a great study of how to win over a
hostile world, a pre Christian world. We're now a post
Christian world, that we become an irresistible force for good
if we love the way Jesus loved, demonstrate grace as
he demonstrated it.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
It's not that we'll win over everybody.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
We won't, but we give people the best opportunity to
be to again create poll to create curiosity and pull
about what we have to say, people wanting more or
not less.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Do you think that part of our issue today is
that the time part of it? Because I feel like
people are very impatient, and so I see not only
in the church, but I see even folks who are
online talking about scripture and talking about Christianity. It's like
the time is now and there is not that I mean,
(15:57):
really that's grace, right. You give people time to come
to it, and sin doesn't go away overnight. And really,
let's face it, I mean sin travels with us. We
are not perfect people. There is no one that walks
into church that is Jesus. There is no one you
can walk in his path. But we are not perfect,
(16:20):
and so we cannot say, well, I can't go to
that church because it's perfect. But as a pastor or
a congregant, you can't say you can't come to our
church because you are not where I am, because none
of us are where Jesus is. And I think that's
been kind of the place where a lot of Christians
get hung up like we are. It's hard for us
(16:41):
to see if somebody is in some sort of a
sinful situation, and you know it, let's face it, where
everybody of every one of us is walking in they're
sick and needing healing, right, But we are likely to
look at someone else and go but they are more sick,
They're sicker than me. So I'm not sure this is
the place. Why is it that we do that great question?
(17:03):
And religious people, there's just something about us that just
do that. It's not the way of Jesus. But it's
the way of religion, right.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
And you talked about Jesus, you know, you know, being
very willing to enter into conflict over truth. But that
was especially with the religious people, like the Pharisees, you know,
who he was hardest on. And you know, so he
you know, they were worried. They were all concerned about
Jesus welcoming the people, being a friend of sinners and
tax collectors, and they assumed that meant he was a
(17:32):
glutton and a drunkard because they confused welcome with agreement,
and Jesus, you know, Jesus wasn't a drunkard.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
He wasn't.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
That happened at those parties that he went to, but
he wasn't involved in that. And they're upset because he
enters into the home of a tax collector who became
one of the disciples, Matthew, and he looks at him
and he says, hey, the Son of Man didn't come
for the healthy, but the sick, and meaning the church
(18:03):
as a hospital for sinners to get better, you know,
not a place for perfect people to shove out everybody
who's not perfect. Right, And so the Pharisees, of course
were sinners too, and it's amazing how impatient we are
with people who sin differently than we do, y know, And.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
That I think is I think that's been an issue
even when I've seen some of these influencers who become
voices for the Christian Church, and it's a strange situation
because they get this very big pulpit to speak from
(18:42):
right and they have and people believe that they are
the voice of the church. Whether that is the majority,
there are people out there that believe that that is
the voice of the church, and they are putting out
this is how you must live. And even in the
political world, we've seen this, and this has been something
(19:03):
that I have really struggled with because I've seen influencers
in the political world who are Christian influencers and they've said,
God calls you to marry young, find a Christian husband
who will lead the household, stay home with your kids.
You are the wife who should take care of And
(19:24):
I know in no case am I saying the husband
should not be the head of the household. I believe
in that family unit. I think that the way it
is presented to young women who maybe are not in
that situation or not finding those men or are not
having that or have gotten married and that is not
their story. Feel very much like I am not worthy
(19:46):
of being with these people, or I don't want to.
I'm going to turn my back on this because of
the massive guilt. There's so many people have a massive
amount of guilt walking into a church and being told
if you are a sinner, God is mad at you,
or that's what they hear.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Right, yeah, absolutely, And the church should be the place
that has the widest welcome on the planet that anybody knows,
no matter who they are.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
I can go and I'll be loved there, and I'll.
Speaker 3 (20:14):
Be welcome there, and I'll be esteemed there no matter what,
no matter what my struggle, no matter what you know.
And and that's the way Jesus related, right, he had
the widest and welcomes and to a narrow path. I mean,
he pointed people to an aerowpath over time, but it
starts with a wide welcome. And in Christianity, you know,
(20:34):
I'm involved in a in order when an organization that
gathers together Christians who are LGBT, Christians who have a
sexual orientation and yet that that is same sex attracted
and yet hold on to a what I would believe
(20:56):
is a Biblical view of sexuality and marriage, where sex
is in the context marriage between a man and a woman.
I believe that's what Jesus affirmed, So they affirm that right.
And but what most of them would say is that
about the last place they can go to grow in
their faith, they believe is a church, because they know
(21:17):
they'll be judged, they'll be rejected, they won't have time
to work out their you know what that means for
them and what it would mean to follow Jesus and
what it would mean to submit that area of life
to him.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
And it's one of.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
The things we're just trying to do is help churches
create an environment where anybody can come and know that
they can be accepted into a relationship with Jesus that
will transform our lives and to say, don't you know,
come in with your hands up, surrender, you know, to whatever.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
God would want for you, whatever God would say to you.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
But that does take, as we've been talking about, it
takes grace, and it takes time in order to conform
the truth.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on the
Tutor Dixon Podcast. So there are people who would say,
that's not what God wants you to do, because He's
clearly spelled out that this is sin. Now I will
say again, everyone who walks through that door is sinful.
(22:21):
When I was running for office, I was against the
death penalty, and a lot of people were horrified by
that because they wanted me to be you know, everybody
has an opinion on what you should be. You should
be for the death penalty, and I just I couldn't.
I just couldn't. And it was like, I was struggling
with this because I'm like, that is not who I am.
And I sat with a woman who is a great
(22:42):
Christian mentor, and she said to me, if you were
for that, why are you the one that could potentially
take away their salvation that they may find while they're waiting,
while they're going through their prison term. You know, why
is it your place to take away their opportunity to
find Christ? And I think that's a tough thing for
(23:06):
Christians because we feel like we have to have justice
and we have to serve God well, and to serve
God well, we have to take certain pieces of the
Bible and say we have to live by it this way.
But I mean, there is this struggle inside of me
that says, but if I say, your sin is greater
(23:27):
than my sin and therefore you can't seek Christ, Am
I robbing that person of salvation and their chance to
live some way that Christ is wanting them to live.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
I love your heart beating, and it's consistent, you know,
And I think and I know you know, there's room
for disagreement about death penalty or not death penalty for Christians,
and I understand I could argue both ways, right, but
as certainly as we're representing something as beautiful as the
preciousness of life for the unborn, for the immigrant, for
(24:03):
the poor, as well as for the criminal, that's really consistent, right, because.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
We're valuing life.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
And which which I think is is compelling even to
people outside of outside of Christianity, Like I remember, you know,
we're talking about how do we represent Jesus and hold
on to truth? Then, and one incredible model to me
this was back into Bill Clinton era and Bill Clinton
was giving an award to Mother Teresa. I don't remember
(24:34):
what it was. It was a long time ago, is
in the nineties.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
And it doesn't seem that long ago, but it was that's.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
True, I know. And yeah, so many things have changed, right,
even you know, Bill Clinton doesn't nearly as bad as it.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
You know, it's like all of a sudden, you know,
wents ahole other thing. Right, it's like cut, we thought.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
That was bad, but when you you know, so he's
given this a to Mother Teresa, right, And so she
is there. They honor her, and they give her the
microphone and she starts talking about life and the preciousness
of life, including the unborn, and she just goes there
(25:15):
and just keeps going there. And you could see the
tension in the room, you know, of the people behind her,
and you've been in those you know, press and jails
right where you've got to smile and the person speaking.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Because who's going to stop Mother Teresa?
Speaker 3 (25:29):
Right?
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Who's gonna stop Mother Teresa? Right?
Speaker 3 (25:32):
But what a great like, what a great model of
influence of living the way of Jesus in such a
way that you engender so much respect that, like you said,
who's gonna who's gonna take.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
The microphone away from her?
Speaker 3 (25:50):
And because she's been consistent for so long and really known,
I would say, like the way Jesus said, we know,
love people all the way I've loved you. That's the
way people know your my disciples. And so the first
thing people should think of when they think of Christian
is that is those are the most loving, wonderful, gracious people,
(26:14):
most forgiving people, most generous people on the planet. So
that if somebody finds out, you know, that somebody you
know moves in next door that's a Christian, they're like, I.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Just got so lucky Christian moodent.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
They believe the weird stuff, but wow, they're just amazing people.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
You know. That's the way we should be known, and
that's what.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
Creates the thirst for actually what we believe, you know,
and what we have to say, Well.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
How do you describe this to kids? Though? I mean,
and I'm serious, because I think that we have children
growing up in schools in society that says anything goes
and shun organized religion of any kind, and then we
have kids like my kids are growing up in a
(27:05):
Christian school and they'll oftentimes say, but Mom, isn't that wrong?
And it's been a big conversation in our house where
I think there is a serious struggle we had. You know,
we have several friends that are a part of the
LGBTQ community, and the girls ask all the time, but
they won't go to heaven, and I'm like, you know what,
(27:28):
I don't know how that works. To be honest with you,
I don't know what their relationship with God is. I
make I'm a sinner. I hope that that doesn't say
that I can't go to heaven. I don't know how
to have that conversation because I'm like, look, I want
to welcome them into our lives, and that's not necessarily
(27:49):
what they are always taught in school. And it's a
tough conversation with young people because certainly I never want
my kids to be like, oh we mom, we can't
talk to so and so because we learned in school.
And I just say, I don't. I don't think that
Jesus would say that, But then I know that there
will be Christians out there that will say no. Jesus
(28:10):
would say, if you're going to continue living that way,
then you cannot be a part of my life. And
I mean, I know people who refuse to go to
ceremonies for LGBTQ people, and I don't know how to
have that conversation. So how do you have that conversation.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Yeah again, I think Jesus is such a great model.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
You know, so in in Jesus's day, which is weird
for us, right, but the worst sinners were tax collectors
because they were.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
I think we feel the same.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
We just got a bunch more of them, right but
you know, right, so but still, you know, you think, okay.
Speaker 3 (28:48):
Like like one of our campus pastors used to be
an higher S agent, you know, so.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
So they can be reformed.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
I get it, I guess, but you know, so we don't,
you know, whatever we think about them. You know, they're
not anybody's favorite, you know people, right, but you but
it's kind of strange, right to two thousand years later,
or to going two thousand years ago thinking okay, that
was considered like the worst of the worst, but it was,
and then other centers, so friend of tax collectors and centers.
(29:17):
So every generation has their worst list, you know, and
it's and it seems arbitrary going from generation to generation
to generation because it changes over time.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
And so in our era it's it's really.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
The LGBT community, right, the churches really struggle with and
that we struggle to welcome. I mean, materialistic people, no
problems sexual.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
People fancy tesla my first.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
That's right, hetero sexual people living together outside of the aware,
that's true, right, It's it's that, it's that community. So
so how did Jesus relate to people in that category?
Speaker 2 (29:57):
And and he wasn't end of centers and tax collectors.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
And and I think he was called that by his enemies,
but I think he wore that as a badge of honor.
And so transformation happens in the context of acceptance and relationship,
not in the context of distancing myself and lobbying grenades. Right,
that's really not a way to influence anybody. But as
(30:26):
we influence people, it happens in proximity. Right, We're to
be salt in light, Jesus said, So salt. The only
way salt works is if it has proximity to the meat,
the steak or whatever it's touching, right, and so light
you don't hide it, you know, you you put it
in a prominent place, right, so you you don't move
(30:47):
away from the people that you're wanting to influence. You
move towards the people that you're wanting to influence. And
with the relationship and with grace, which then gives the
opportunity to create pull toward truth and a better way.
But if you lead with I'm right and you're wrong,
(31:08):
let me tell you why. Well, no, none of us
are gonna that's not going to pull us towards nobody's
going to be pulled toward that, right.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Now, that's true in the political world as well.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
Well yeah, yeah, right, So you you relate in a
way I mean, Paul said it, he said, you know,
relate in our world in a way that makes the
teaching of God of Jesus our Savior attractive in every way.
Meaning we're to that. The way we influence culture is
in a it is not so much through a lens
of warfare as it is through even though there's spiritual
(31:42):
warfare going on, but not so much, but not so
much through a lens of warfare with people not fighting them,
but actually an influence more of a missionary a missionary perspective,
where we uh, it's not so much seeing culture as
a battlefield but as a mission field. And even people
who disagree with us are not the enemy.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
They think it's a hard I think it's a hard
balance because Jesus, while he is loving and draws people in,
God still disciplines. He is the father of discipline and
learning through discipline, And so how do you balance bringing
people in? But also there are hard truths in the
(32:26):
Bible and those and like you said, you don't want
to hide those truths. You have that wide mouth where
people can come in, and then if they choose to leave.
I think a lot of times just opening that door
that seed doesn't necessarily mean they're gone forever. And I
think that's hard. Like I said, that timing part and
(32:47):
the grace is hard for Christians because they're like, join
and be a part of this, and you know, forget
about all of the sin, even though they likely have
not done that, Like I said, But but how do
you Some people say, if you are too much like, okay,
we're going to be an inclusive church, then are you
(33:08):
really able to discipline and show what what God's discipline is.
Speaker 3 (33:15):
Yeah, so you know, I think on the welcome side
you include everybody.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
You know, Jesus said, and Matthew.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
Eleven, come all you were weary and heavy late, and
I'll give you rest. But then he also so it's come.
I mean, the only the only command is come, which
is a low bar. It's just and but then he says,
for my yoka is easy and my burden is light.
So he is saying, walk with me into a whole
(33:44):
new life, and he'll do the heavy lifting of transformation.
That's why it's easy for us, light for us, not
burdensome dust. And so it's hey, come as you are
and walk with me into a whole new life. And
so it's it's a relationship with g Us over time
that changes people.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
And I think that's one of the.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
Problems as Christians when we try to want to we
want to be influential and want truth to win the
day in culture, because culture is better when that happens.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
But like Paul said, we have to be careful not
to judge those outside the church. As he said in
Second Corinthians, we should judge ourselves because we've signed up
like we're Christians. We've signed up for this right. People
outside haven't.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
And theologically they don't have the Holy Spirit to help
them perform with truth anyway or to begin to live
by our standards. And so it's it's not so much
that I want people to be moral, even though yeah,
they're moral, is better than immoral. But what I really
want is internal transformation that only happens in relationship with Jesus,
at least in my theology.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
That's interesting. I think that that's where so what I'm
hearing and I'm really, honestly, I really am trying to
figure out what what are we as a church doing
that is driving people away? And I think what I'm
hearing from you is what I experienced is someone should
call you to be a part of it, but they
(35:15):
are not going to transform you. And too often as Christians,
we think that we're Jesus. We're going to transform you.
We're going to force you into this mold. We can
make you like the way Jesus wants you to be.
It is not that we are to give grace. We
are to introduce, to give grace and let Jesus transform
and that can take decades.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
Yes, And that's grace versus judgment, you know. And so
you know, I think if when you say, what what's
gone wrong? If we're supposed to be known as the
most loving people on the planet, you know, when you
look at you know, we don't have to wonder how
people outside of Christianity be Christians because there's so much
polling data, you know, and you can guess any you
(36:00):
can guess the words that people use, you know, outside
of Christianity, how do you view a Christian?
Speaker 2 (36:05):
How would you describe a Christian? And it's you can imagine.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
Right, it's hateful, bigoted, angry, mean spirited, judgmental, you know, hypocritical,
all that stuff really the opposite of the brand, which
is love, which is a huge problem.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Right.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
And when you look at you know, we talked about
the emerging generations. Gallup did a study in two thousand
and one where they ask people in that generation young adults.
So people in that young adult age group in two
thousand and one, how many had DoD they have a
positive view of Christianity or a negative view, meaning did
they see Christianity is a positive force forget in the
(36:46):
world or a negative force forget in the world.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
And in two.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
Thousand and one, sixty a little over sixty percent of
people in that generation, including many he didn't claim to
be a Christian, still said positive force forget in the world.
And twenty one, twenty years later, they did the same study,
different people, right, but same age group. So now that
age group now twenty years later, gen Z and thirty
(37:15):
seven percent believed said Christianity was a positive force for good,
which meant sixty three percent negative, which by the way,
is also the same it's the same number thirty six
percent who claim to be Christians. So essentially gen Zers
who claim to be Christians were positive about Christianity. Virtually
every other person that in that generation believed we're not
(37:37):
just neutral but like a negative force for good in
the world. We were making our world worse. And we've
got to ask us ourselves the question, how did that happen?
And I know we don't get any help for media,
we don't get any help from Hollywood, we don't get
any help from you know, lots of news outlets and
all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
I understand that.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
But maybe we need to be present in those places.
And that's where I think that God has. You know,
we ask what went wrong? But nothing's going wrong because
this is God's plan, and God is saying, Okay, he's
watching us and he's guiding us, but he's asking us
to listen. And as we see our world hurting, and
(38:24):
when we see pain, you see pain, it's getting closer
to you. Every day. You see crime, you see addiction,
you see all of these things that are coming closer
to you every day. And I really believe that in
this world where Roe v. Wade was overturned and all
of a sudden it became abortion on demand, and Christians went, oh,
how could that happen? I'm like, God didn't let this
(38:47):
happen without saying to you, this is not a legal issue.
This is a heart issue. We let the hearts go.
Be present. And that's what I've tried to talk to people.
And I don't know that diet. I mean, I don't
know if that's right, but I sense that God has
said to us, you haven't done the right work, so
(39:12):
now you suffer more pain and people will suffer more
pain until you get it right. But listen to what
he wants. So I don't know. I mean, that's how
I kind of interpret it. And that's what I hope
that we start to look at these situations and say
we're not present. We've walked away from that and we're
and as Christians, I think even we have been like, oh,
(39:34):
that's not for us, so we're going to look the
other way. But if you're not present there, like you
are in the world, not of the world, be in
the world, be present, be a light.
Speaker 3 (39:45):
I love that because essentially, I think one of the
big thing that's happened, and we say, what's happened?
Speaker 2 (39:49):
In Christianity?
Speaker 3 (39:50):
We're supposed to be animated by love, which moves, which
does move toward people. It is, it is in there, right.
The only way to be salted light is to be present.
But if Christians are animated by fear, which I think
right now we are, then what happens in fear. We'll
go back to high school biology. Right, it's either fight
or flight. Yeah, So you either flee into your own
(40:12):
little Christian bubble, and which just contributes to the polarization
we have in our culture right where you're in your
little bubble and you talk about people outside your bubble,
but you're not talking to them, which skews your perspective
of them. And it's not the way of Jesus. They've
created us versus them. It just contributes to the us
versus them thing that's happening in culture. One of the
(40:34):
greatest ways we could stick out as Christians is not
do that and not creating us versus them the world,
but to move towards you know, and get out of
our bubble and move right so but in fear, that's
what happened. Or and it's either and or you choose fight.
So you go into fight mode because what we believe
we believe to be true.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
I get that.
Speaker 3 (40:55):
But you but if you exhibit truth through fight and
you come at people push, people are repelled just like
we would be repelled.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Right. It never works to do that.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
And so what you solved the problem. It's not fight
or flight. It's light there you go. I love it.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Yeah, and uh.
Speaker 3 (41:18):
And the Bible says that love casts out all fear.
So if you you know, if you're if you're relating
to culture and love not fear, then you won't fight
or flight. It cast out fear. You'll you know, you'll
move toward culture. And I think Christians have been you know,
I mean, Paul told Timothy, God has not given us
(41:39):
a spirit of fear and timidity, but of love and
power and a sound mind. Right, So we have truth,
we have God, we have the Holy Spirit right there,
and we can in a compelling way and all that
we don't have to play defense. We can move toward people.
We could be an environment. That's why I love the
fact that they're fellow christ follows like you who are
(42:01):
willing to be involved in politics. I don't want to
see the church politicize. That's another culture. That's another conversation.
But I do want to see Christians engaging politics. But
I do want to see Christians engage in politics to
be present, to be sultan like there, to represent Jesus there.
We need way more of that, and there's there's just
(42:23):
far too little of it. And so you know, if
you if you relate to culture out of fight or fight,
no wonder, we're not seen as loving because well we're
actually not being loving, right.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
Yeah. I mean, I could honestly talk to you for hours.
I'm I'm hoping you'll come back some time because this
has been a really fascinating conversation for me, and it
was really I really did go into this and think
I don't know where this is going to go. And
before I came in here, I was like, Okay, God,
you just speak through me, because I don't know how
(42:57):
to have this conversation. But I learned a lot and
I hope that the people listening got a lot out
of it. I think they. I think they will because
I'm going to think about this for a long time tonight.
So Jeff Jones, Pastor Jones, thank you so much for
being here. Thank you, and oh, tell people where they
can find your book, because you have a book, right.
Speaker 2 (43:19):
I do, Rebrain and Christianity.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
Now.
Speaker 3 (43:21):
You can find it on Amazon and some bookstores, but
you can also learn more. There's a podcast as well,
if you've got to rebrain in Christianity dot org.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
Okay, so you can listen more. Pastor Jones, thank you
so much, Thank you, and thank you all for joining
me for the Tutor Dixon Podcast. For this episode and others,
go to Tutor dixonpodcast dot com. You can subscribe right there,
or check out the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get
your podcasts. Join us next time on the Tutor Dixon Podcast.
Have a blessing.
Welcome to the Tutor Dixon Podcast. I am really excited
about today's conversation. I honestly don't know which direction it's
going to go. I read a recent op ed in
the Dallas Morning News about the biggest problem facing Christianity,
so I was, of course completely intrigued. I've been accused
of not being Christian enough. I've been accused of being
(00:23):
part of that problem with Christianity. Maybe I'm too Christian.
I don't know. For some people, I don't know what
that means. But we have Pastor Jeff Jones with us
today and he says that it is a brand problem
in the Christian faith, which I am. I'm like, okay,
what does that mean? So I feel like there could
be parts today that we agree on, and there might
be parts that we disagree on, but I'm really anxious
(00:45):
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let's get back to spiritual health. Our guest today Jeff Jones.
Jeff is a lead pastor of Chase Oaks Church. It's
(02:11):
a multi site church in Dallas, and the author of
the book Rebranding Christianity. Thank you so much, Jeff for
being here.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Thank you so much. I'm looking forward to the conversation.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Well, I'm anxious to get to it. So you said
that this is going to help us have this conversation
at Thanksgiving. I know that Thanksgiving is right around the corner.
There's a lot of conversations like this. I actually got
a message from my mother in law last night saying
she's excited to talk about my podcast from a few
days ago over Thanksgiving. So I'm not sure where that's
going to go. So tell me what we're doing wrong,
(02:45):
because we've obviously the church has been shrinking. You talk
in the article about it used to be ninety percent
of people we're going to church, and now we've reduced
down to sixty percent. We're losing the younger generation. I mean,
and I've seen this in my own family, my sister
in laws in her twenties and their real church goers.
So what happened.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Such a such a great question.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
So yeah, when you look at if you want to
get depressed, let's say you're having a good day and
you want to just get a little discouraged, all you
have to do is google gen Z and Christianity, right,
and you'll see the repulsion of that generation and the
exodus of that generation, and and a lot of that
is about how Christianity is perceived. And so in the
(03:30):
book Rebrain and Christianity, and what we're talking about is
that we who are as followers are given the responsibility
to manage the brand so to speak. I mean, he said,
this is how you'll be known, and if we're not
known that way, then we have a problem.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
And so you know the.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
So what we'd love to see, right is to gain
influence as Christians and culture, because that's good for culture, that's.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Good for everything.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
When it happens, we're losing luence, and there's all kinds
of reasons for that. But I believe we have to
take responsibility as Christians for how we're perceived and how
we're managing the brand of Christianity. And we can talk
about what is the brand of Christianity, right, But but
I you know the faith of the next generation is
at stake, and that's why I wrote the book. I
(04:19):
really didn't want to write a book. I'm not a
controversial person. I don't enjoy that there's some controversial things
in there, and I don't expect everybody to agree with
everything that's in there. But I couldn't on my watch
continue to see the next generation leaving Christianity. And I
just had to ask myself the question is what is
(04:41):
the faith and what is the faith of the next
generation worth? And I think it's worth just about everything.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
So what does that mean? Because I know I think that.
I mean in my church, I would say that there's
a constant conversation, a pretty regular conversation that they're there
are truths in the Bible that are tough. There is
a calling on Christians that is different than the average person,
and sometimes that can be a hard pill to swallow
(05:11):
because it means you can't live a life that is
filled with sin. So how do you reconcile that? Because
I think some critics of yours would say, well, you're
offering a watered down version of what the Bible is saying,
so argue against that.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
Yeah, yeah, I certainly don't want us to be less
of Jesus called us to be, but much more if
Jesus called us to be. And in his bottom line,
which is really interesting, of all the things he could
have said, you know, in the this is how you
should be known, this is this is your thing, this
is how we roll.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
And he could have named a lot of things.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
You should be known as the most moral people on
the planet, which that's a good thing to be. You
should be known as the most right people on the planet, which, well,
we have truth. It's good to be right, way better
than being wrong. You know, there's lots of ways he
we could they could have given us the brand. But
what he said in the New Command is this is
how people will know you're my followers if you love
people the way I love you.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
So what do you the way we should be known?
Speaker 1 (06:11):
What do you think Christians are doing that's turning off
this this young generation. I mean, I know that when
I was running for office, abortion was a big issue, right,
that was the biggest issue, and so that was kind
of the spiritual issue for Christians. It was like, you're
that was how you were judged. Are you going to
(06:33):
stand for life? But then this next generation. A lot
of the young people in that generation felt like that
was so alienating to them. But on the subject of life,
I mean, where is their wiggle room on your own
feeling toward it?
Speaker 2 (06:50):
You know?
Speaker 1 (06:51):
So how do you reconcile that? How do you bring
people around to an issue like that?
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Sure, so you know, I'm a.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Pastor and I'm a bibliss right, so I certainly believe
in the value of every life.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Including the unborn.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
So positionally there's no wiggle room, you know, to change
our position on life and on But the New Testament
talks a whole lot not only about our position and
how holding on to truth because I believe it's loving
to hold onto truth. I don't believe it's loving to
act like truth is not truth. And we can talk
(07:28):
more about that, But the Bible talks a whole lot
about how we as Christians posture ourselves in a way
that it gives every opportunity for people to be pulled
toward what we believe, as opposed to be repulsed by
what we believe. And so when you say, well, what's
gone wrong? I think, to be honest, and I'm part
(07:49):
of it, I'm not throwing rocks from the outside. I'm
a pastor of an evangelical church in Dallas, Texas, and
I think I don't think we've postured ourselves as well
as we could. And I think there's times that we've
entered into an a polarized world. We've entered into the
polarization and the vitriol as opposed to rising above that.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
It demonstrating a lot of Jesus.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
So do you think that there are two? Are you
saying there are too many Christians out there that, like
the Pharisees, we're wearing the scripture on their sleeve, that
are like pulling that out and saying, well, according to
my Bible right here, you're wrong. This is not what
you should be doing. And so unless you are following
this exactly, I can't love you.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
I think that is part of it, and that's the
way you were perceived.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
I don't think anybody would want to be perceived that
way or think they're doing that, but it's the way
it can come across. Right when come across in our
rightness and our desire to have our position valued and honored,
and we believe it's best when that happens.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Of course, we do because we believe it's true.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
But if we represent that truth in a way that
where we can across as a bully or the least
likely people to listen. You know, the New Testament tells
us to be humble and gentle to everyone and at
all times, and.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
That's not easy to do.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
And so when we violate our posture, when we violate tone,
and the New Testament talks a whole lot about tone
and a whole lot about posture and how we engage
our culture. When we don't engage in a compelling way
that we actually do truth to disservice, we push people away.
(09:36):
And what we really want to do is create a
sense of pull, not push. Create a curiosity. Like Peter
said to the Christians in Rome, to live in such
a way that you silence the people who say bad
things about you if I make them a shame they
ever did because of you the way you live your life.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on
the Tutor Dixon podcast. I mean, in the Bible, I
think that it's it's to me Jesus is saying you
are in the world, you are not of the world,
So you are to be in the world in teaching
(10:16):
and be living like me in the world and draw
people to Christ so that when you are no longer
in this world, you go to Heaven. You save people. Right,
So he obviously we know that he spoke to people
in the Bible that the teachers and the rabbis were like,
(10:37):
oh my goodness, this guy is not he's not a
Jew because you can't do that. You know, that's against
the rules. Moses told us you can't do that. How
could he do this if this is against the rules.
And so there was a lot of I mean, obviously
they were they crucified him, right, They're like this, we
got to get rid of this guy. He's a bad guy.
So how do you how do you showed that he
(11:01):
was loving? But but there were moments though, where he
still said you can't do this. You know when he
when he went and overturned the tables in the temple,
he was saying, you still there are still rules. There
are rules. I think that people come in and they say, well,
he came in and with the New Testament, he threw
out all the rules, but he didn't throw out the rules.
(11:22):
So how do you bring people Because I think that
you talked about culture. Culture has become no rules. You know,
we don't have we don't have we don't punish crime.
We don't want people to get in trouble if they
don't have their assignment at school. So you know, we're
not going to grade anymore. I mean, we've become a
society of no rules. But Jesus didn't say there are
(11:43):
no rules, so how do you? And I think that's
been a bit of the turn off with Christianity is
I don't want to follow the rules, you know, I
don't want to have to go someplace where they tell
me this is what we expect of you. And even
if you are loving and you are drawing people in,
so I guess I would say. You listen to my
(12:03):
podcast about going to Bible study for the first time,
and that's how I felt. I'm like, oh, no, these
people are going to make me change who I am,
and there's this fear of changing who you are. And
it was this message of when you become a Christian,
your life is going to change. The people around you
are going to change. You're going to choose different people
and that's scary. But they didn't force me to do that.
(12:26):
It was just a change that happened to me as
I became grew deeper and deeper in my faith. But
how do you get people there?
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Yeah, I think your story is a great illustration of
grace plus truth over time leads to transformation. And so
when Jesus came, you know, John tells us and John
won that he came full of grace and full of truth.
And he's really careful about how her words it. He
didn't say he came for grace sixty percentury.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
He was full of both.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
He never compromised grace and ever compromise truth because it's
not gracious to compromise truth. And the greatest truth in
the world is grace, so you know, and so he
came full of grace and full of truth. But how
you see Jesus relate is the order is really important.
So he always led with grace and then he pointed
(13:19):
people to truth. And the way I talk about that
is he had a wide welcome to a narrow path,
and he had a narrow path because it's good and
wonderful and perfect. Like Paul says, you know in Romans twelve,
it's good. You know, God's truth is not random, it's
not arbitrary. He made the world. He knows how human
flourishing will work, so it wouldn't be loving for us
(13:40):
to act like that's not true. Right, we want to
point people to truth. But he had a wide welcome
to a narrow path, and that path gets more narrow
over time as we open up ourselves to hopefully relationship
with Jesus then begins to change us over time. But
it's grace polus, truth over time. So if you are
familiar with the b and I know you are, but
(14:01):
listeners like the woman caught in adultery, and they bring
her right, and he says, grace, I don't condemn you,
but then truth. Right, he says, but go and sin
no more, don't do this anymore. And then he looks
at his disciples and he said, the son of Man,
talking about himself, did not come to condemn the world,
(14:21):
but to save it. And so he's not condemning her
but saving her from a life of sin and just saying, hey,
this is you can do so much better. Don't do
this right, but it's grace and welcome. I don't condemn you,
plus truth over time. And therefore you know, if I'm
going to relate like Jesus, then I'm going to have
(14:43):
the widest welcome. I'm going to be the most loving, welcoming, gracious, kind, gentle,
listening person on the planet. But in relationship over time, right,
I'm going to share truth. I'm going to point to truth.
And if I'm doing that well, We're told to relate
to culture, and the early Christians did it. I mean,
(15:05):
it's a great study of how to win over a
hostile world, a pre Christian world. We're now a post
Christian world, that we become an irresistible force for good
if we love the way Jesus loved, demonstrate grace as
he demonstrated it.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
It's not that we'll win over everybody.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
We won't, but we give people the best opportunity to
be to again create poll to create curiosity and pull
about what we have to say, people wanting more or
not less.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Do you think that part of our issue today is
that the time part of it? Because I feel like
people are very impatient, and so I see not only
in the church, but I see even folks who are
online talking about scripture and talking about Christianity. It's like
the time is now and there is not that I mean,
(15:57):
really that's grace, right. You give people time to come
to it, and sin doesn't go away overnight. And really,
let's face it, I mean sin travels with us. We
are not perfect people. There is no one that walks
into church that is Jesus. There is no one you
can walk in his path. But we are not perfect,
(16:20):
and so we cannot say, well, I can't go to
that church because it's perfect. But as a pastor or
a congregant, you can't say you can't come to our
church because you are not where I am, because none
of us are where Jesus is. And I think that's
been kind of the place where a lot of Christians
get hung up like we are. It's hard for us
(16:41):
to see if somebody is in some sort of a
sinful situation, and you know it, let's face it, where
everybody of every one of us is walking in they're
sick and needing healing, right, But we are likely to
look at someone else and go but they are more sick,
They're sicker than me. So I'm not sure this is
the place. Why is it that we do that great question?
(17:03):
And religious people, there's just something about us that just
do that. It's not the way of Jesus. But it's
the way of religion, right.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
And you talked about Jesus, you know, you know, being
very willing to enter into conflict over truth. But that
was especially with the religious people, like the Pharisees, you know,
who he was hardest on. And you know, so he
you know, they were worried. They were all concerned about
Jesus welcoming the people, being a friend of sinners and
tax collectors, and they assumed that meant he was a
(17:32):
glutton and a drunkard because they confused welcome with agreement,
and Jesus, you know, Jesus wasn't a drunkard.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
He wasn't.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
That happened at those parties that he went to, but
he wasn't involved in that. And they're upset because he
enters into the home of a tax collector who became
one of the disciples, Matthew, and he looks at him
and he says, hey, the Son of Man didn't come
for the healthy, but the sick, and meaning the church
(18:03):
as a hospital for sinners to get better, you know,
not a place for perfect people to shove out everybody
who's not perfect. Right, And so the Pharisees, of course
were sinners too, and it's amazing how impatient we are
with people who sin differently than we do, y know, And.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
That I think is I think that's been an issue
even when I've seen some of these influencers who become
voices for the Christian Church, and it's a strange situation
because they get this very big pulpit to speak from
(18:42):
right and they have and people believe that they are
the voice of the church. Whether that is the majority,
there are people out there that believe that that is
the voice of the church, and they are putting out
this is how you must live. And even in the
political world, we've seen this, and this has been something
(19:03):
that I have really struggled with because I've seen influencers
in the political world who are Christian influencers and they've said,
God calls you to marry young, find a Christian husband
who will lead the household, stay home with your kids.
You are the wife who should take care of And
(19:24):
I know in no case am I saying the husband
should not be the head of the household. I believe
in that family unit. I think that the way it
is presented to young women who maybe are not in
that situation or not finding those men or are not
having that or have gotten married and that is not
their story. Feel very much like I am not worthy
(19:46):
of being with these people, or I don't want to.
I'm going to turn my back on this because of
the massive guilt. There's so many people have a massive
amount of guilt walking into a church and being told
if you are a sinner, God is mad at you,
or that's what they hear.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Right, yeah, absolutely, And the church should be the place
that has the widest welcome on the planet that anybody knows,
no matter who they are.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
I can go and I'll be loved there, and I'll.
Speaker 3 (20:14):
Be welcome there, and I'll be esteemed there no matter what,
no matter what my struggle, no matter what you know.
And and that's the way Jesus related, right, he had
the widest and welcomes and to a narrow path. I mean,
he pointed people to an aerowpath over time, but it
starts with a wide welcome. And in Christianity, you know,
(20:34):
I'm involved in a in order when an organization that
gathers together Christians who are LGBT, Christians who have a
sexual orientation and yet that that is same sex attracted
and yet hold on to a what I would believe
(20:56):
is a Biblical view of sexuality and marriage, where sex
is in the context marriage between a man and a woman.
I believe that's what Jesus affirmed, So they affirm that right.
And but what most of them would say is that
about the last place they can go to grow in
their faith, they believe is a church, because they know
(21:17):
they'll be judged, they'll be rejected, they won't have time
to work out their you know what that means for
them and what it would mean to follow Jesus and
what it would mean to submit that area of life
to him.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
And it's one of.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
The things we're just trying to do is help churches
create an environment where anybody can come and know that
they can be accepted into a relationship with Jesus that
will transform our lives and to say, don't you know,
come in with your hands up, surrender, you know, to whatever.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
God would want for you, whatever God would say to you.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
But that does take, as we've been talking about, it
takes grace, and it takes time in order to conform
the truth.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on the
Tutor Dixon Podcast. So there are people who would say,
that's not what God wants you to do, because He's
clearly spelled out that this is sin. Now I will
say again, everyone who walks through that door is sinful.
(22:21):
When I was running for office, I was against the
death penalty, and a lot of people were horrified by
that because they wanted me to be you know, everybody
has an opinion on what you should be. You should
be for the death penalty, and I just I couldn't.
I just couldn't. And it was like, I was struggling
with this because I'm like, that is not who I am.
And I sat with a woman who is a great
(22:42):
Christian mentor, and she said to me, if you were
for that, why are you the one that could potentially
take away their salvation that they may find while they're waiting,
while they're going through their prison term. You know, why
is it your place to take away their opportunity to
find Christ? And I think that's a tough thing for
(23:06):
Christians because we feel like we have to have justice
and we have to serve God well, and to serve
God well, we have to take certain pieces of the
Bible and say we have to live by it this way.
But I mean, there is this struggle inside of me
that says, but if I say, your sin is greater
(23:27):
than my sin and therefore you can't seek Christ, Am
I robbing that person of salvation and their chance to
live some way that Christ is wanting them to live.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
I love your heart beating, and it's consistent, you know,
And I think and I know you know, there's room
for disagreement about death penalty or not death penalty for Christians,
and I understand I could argue both ways, right, but
as certainly as we're representing something as beautiful as the
preciousness of life for the unborn, for the immigrant, for
(24:03):
the poor, as well as for the criminal, that's really consistent, right, because.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
We're valuing life.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
And which which I think is is compelling even to
people outside of outside of Christianity, Like I remember, you know,
we're talking about how do we represent Jesus and hold
on to truth? Then, and one incredible model to me
this was back into Bill Clinton era and Bill Clinton
was giving an award to Mother Teresa. I don't remember
(24:34):
what it was. It was a long time ago, is
in the nineties.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
And it doesn't seem that long ago, but it was that's.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
True, I know. And yeah, so many things have changed, right,
even you know, Bill Clinton doesn't nearly as bad as it.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
You know, it's like all of a sudden, you know,
wents ahole other thing. Right, it's like cut, we thought.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
That was bad, but when you you know, so he's
given this a to Mother Teresa, right, And so she
is there. They honor her, and they give her the
microphone and she starts talking about life and the preciousness
of life, including the unborn, and she just goes there
(25:15):
and just keeps going there. And you could see the
tension in the room, you know, of the people behind her,
and you've been in those you know, press and jails
right where you've got to smile and the person speaking.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Because who's going to stop Mother Teresa?
Speaker 3 (25:29):
Right?
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Who's gonna stop Mother Teresa? Right?
Speaker 3 (25:32):
But what a great like, what a great model of
influence of living the way of Jesus in such a
way that you engender so much respect that, like you said,
who's gonna who's gonna take.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
The microphone away from her?
Speaker 3 (25:50):
And because she's been consistent for so long and really known,
I would say, like the way Jesus said, we know,
love people all the way I've loved you. That's the
way people know your my disciples. And so the first
thing people should think of when they think of Christian
is that is those are the most loving, wonderful, gracious people,
(26:14):
most forgiving people, most generous people on the planet. So
that if somebody finds out, you know, that somebody you
know moves in next door that's a Christian, they're like, I.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Just got so lucky Christian moodent.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
They believe the weird stuff, but wow, they're just amazing people.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
You know. That's the way we should be known, and
that's what.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
Creates the thirst for actually what we believe, you know,
and what we have to say, Well.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
How do you describe this to kids? Though? I mean,
and I'm serious, because I think that we have children
growing up in schools in society that says anything goes
and shun organized religion of any kind, and then we
have kids like my kids are growing up in a
(27:05):
Christian school and they'll oftentimes say, but Mom, isn't that wrong?
And it's been a big conversation in our house where
I think there is a serious struggle we had. You know,
we have several friends that are a part of the
LGBTQ community, and the girls ask all the time, but
they won't go to heaven, and I'm like, you know what,
(27:28):
I don't know how that works. To be honest with you,
I don't know what their relationship with God is. I
make I'm a sinner. I hope that that doesn't say
that I can't go to heaven. I don't know how
to have that conversation because I'm like, look, I want
to welcome them into our lives, and that's not necessarily
(27:49):
what they are always taught in school. And it's a
tough conversation with young people because certainly I never want
my kids to be like, oh we mom, we can't
talk to so and so because we learned in school.
And I just say, I don't. I don't think that
Jesus would say that, But then I know that there
will be Christians out there that will say no. Jesus
(28:10):
would say, if you're going to continue living that way,
then you cannot be a part of my life. And
I mean, I know people who refuse to go to
ceremonies for LGBTQ people, and I don't know how to
have that conversation. So how do you have that conversation.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Yeah again, I think Jesus is such a great model.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
You know, so in in Jesus's day, which is weird
for us, right, but the worst sinners were tax collectors
because they were.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
I think we feel the same.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
We just got a bunch more of them, right but
you know, right, so but still, you know, you think, okay.
Speaker 3 (28:48):
Like like one of our campus pastors used to be
an higher S agent, you know, so.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
So they can be reformed.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
I get it, I guess, but you know, so we don't,
you know, whatever we think about them. You know, they're
not anybody's favorite, you know people, right, but you but
it's kind of strange, right to two thousand years later,
or to going two thousand years ago thinking okay, that
was considered like the worst of the worst, but it was,
and then other centers, so friend of tax collectors and centers.
(29:17):
So every generation has their worst list, you know, and
it's and it seems arbitrary going from generation to generation
to generation because it changes over time.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
And so in our era it's it's really.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
The LGBT community, right, the churches really struggle with and
that we struggle to welcome. I mean, materialistic people, no
problems sexual.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
People fancy tesla my first.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
That's right, hetero sexual people living together outside of the aware,
that's true, right, It's it's that, it's that community. So
so how did Jesus relate to people in that category?
Speaker 2 (29:57):
And and he wasn't end of centers and tax collectors.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
And and I think he was called that by his enemies,
but I think he wore that as a badge of honor.
And so transformation happens in the context of acceptance and relationship,
not in the context of distancing myself and lobbying grenades. Right,
that's really not a way to influence anybody. But as
(30:26):
we influence people, it happens in proximity. Right, We're to
be salt in light, Jesus said, So salt. The only
way salt works is if it has proximity to the meat,
the steak or whatever it's touching, right, and so light
you don't hide it, you know, you you put it
in a prominent place, right, so you you don't move
(30:47):
away from the people that you're wanting to influence. You
move towards the people that you're wanting to influence. And
with the relationship and with grace, which then gives the
opportunity to create pull toward truth and a better way.
But if you lead with I'm right and you're wrong,
(31:08):
let me tell you why. Well, no, none of us
are gonna that's not going to pull us towards nobody's
going to be pulled toward that, right.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Now, that's true in the political world as well.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
Well yeah, yeah, right, So you you relate in a
way I mean, Paul said it, he said, you know,
relate in our world in a way that makes the
teaching of God of Jesus our Savior attractive in every way.
Meaning we're to that. The way we influence culture is
in a it is not so much through a lens
of warfare as it is through even though there's spiritual
(31:42):
warfare going on, but not so much, but not so
much through a lens of warfare with people not fighting them,
but actually an influence more of a missionary a missionary perspective,
where we uh, it's not so much seeing culture as
a battlefield but as a mission field. And even people
who disagree with us are not the enemy.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
They think it's a hard I think it's a hard
balance because Jesus, while he is loving and draws people in,
God still disciplines. He is the father of discipline and
learning through discipline, And so how do you balance bringing
people in? But also there are hard truths in the
(32:26):
Bible and those and like you said, you don't want
to hide those truths. You have that wide mouth where
people can come in, and then if they choose to leave.
I think a lot of times just opening that door
that seed doesn't necessarily mean they're gone forever. And I
think that's hard. Like I said, that timing part and
(32:47):
the grace is hard for Christians because they're like, join
and be a part of this, and you know, forget
about all of the sin, even though they likely have
not done that, Like I said, But but how do
you Some people say, if you are too much like, okay,
we're going to be an inclusive church, then are you
(33:08):
really able to discipline and show what what God's discipline is.
Speaker 3 (33:15):
Yeah, so you know, I think on the welcome side
you include everybody.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
You know, Jesus said, and Matthew.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
Eleven, come all you were weary and heavy late, and
I'll give you rest. But then he also so it's come.
I mean, the only the only command is come, which
is a low bar. It's just and but then he says,
for my yoka is easy and my burden is light.
So he is saying, walk with me into a whole
(33:44):
new life, and he'll do the heavy lifting of transformation.
That's why it's easy for us, light for us, not
burdensome dust. And so it's hey, come as you are
and walk with me into a whole new life. And
so it's it's a relationship with g Us over time
that changes people.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
And I think that's one of the.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
Problems as Christians when we try to want to we
want to be influential and want truth to win the
day in culture, because culture is better when that happens.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
But like Paul said, we have to be careful not
to judge those outside the church. As he said in
Second Corinthians, we should judge ourselves because we've signed up
like we're Christians. We've signed up for this right. People
outside haven't.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
And theologically they don't have the Holy Spirit to help
them perform with truth anyway or to begin to live
by our standards. And so it's it's not so much
that I want people to be moral, even though yeah,
they're moral, is better than immoral. But what I really
want is internal transformation that only happens in relationship with Jesus,
at least in my theology.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
That's interesting. I think that that's where so what I'm
hearing and I'm really, honestly, I really am trying to
figure out what what are we as a church doing
that is driving people away? And I think what I'm
hearing from you is what I experienced is someone should
call you to be a part of it, but they
(35:15):
are not going to transform you. And too often as Christians,
we think that we're Jesus. We're going to transform you.
We're going to force you into this mold. We can
make you like the way Jesus wants you to be.
It is not that we are to give grace. We
are to introduce, to give grace and let Jesus transform
and that can take decades.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
Yes, And that's grace versus judgment, you know. And so
you know, I think if when you say, what what's
gone wrong? If we're supposed to be known as the
most loving people on the planet, you know, when you
look at you know, we don't have to wonder how
people outside of Christianity be Christians because there's so much
polling data, you know, and you can guess any you
(36:00):
can guess the words that people use, you know, outside
of Christianity, how do you view a Christian?
Speaker 2 (36:05):
How would you describe a Christian? And it's you can imagine.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
Right, it's hateful, bigoted, angry, mean spirited, judgmental, you know, hypocritical,
all that stuff really the opposite of the brand, which
is love, which is a huge problem.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Right.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
And when you look at you know, we talked about
the emerging generations. Gallup did a study in two thousand
and one where they ask people in that generation young adults.
So people in that young adult age group in two
thousand and one, how many had DoD they have a
positive view of Christianity or a negative view, meaning did
they see Christianity is a positive force forget in the
(36:46):
world or a negative force forget in the world.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
And in two.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
Thousand and one, sixty a little over sixty percent of
people in that generation, including many he didn't claim to
be a Christian, still said positive force forget in the world.
And twenty one, twenty years later, they did the same study,
different people, right, but same age group. So now that
age group now twenty years later, gen Z and thirty
(37:15):
seven percent believed said Christianity was a positive force for good,
which meant sixty three percent negative, which by the way,
is also the same it's the same number thirty six
percent who claim to be Christians. So essentially gen Zers
who claim to be Christians were positive about Christianity. Virtually
every other person that in that generation believed we're not
(37:37):
just neutral but like a negative force for good in
the world. We were making our world worse. And we've
got to ask us ourselves the question, how did that happen?
And I know we don't get any help for media,
we don't get any help from Hollywood, we don't get
any help from you know, lots of news outlets and
all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
I understand that.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
But maybe we need to be present in those places.
And that's where I think that God has. You know,
we ask what went wrong? But nothing's going wrong because
this is God's plan, and God is saying, Okay, he's
watching us and he's guiding us, but he's asking us
to listen. And as we see our world hurting, and
(38:24):
when we see pain, you see pain, it's getting closer
to you. Every day. You see crime, you see addiction,
you see all of these things that are coming closer
to you every day. And I really believe that in
this world where Roe v. Wade was overturned and all
of a sudden it became abortion on demand, and Christians went, oh,
how could that happen? I'm like, God didn't let this
(38:47):
happen without saying to you, this is not a legal issue.
This is a heart issue. We let the hearts go.
Be present. And that's what I've tried to talk to people.
And I don't know that diet. I mean, I don't
know if that's right, but I sense that God has
said to us, you haven't done the right work, so
(39:12):
now you suffer more pain and people will suffer more
pain until you get it right. But listen to what
he wants. So I don't know. I mean, that's how
I kind of interpret it. And that's what I hope
that we start to look at these situations and say
we're not present. We've walked away from that and we're
and as Christians, I think even we have been like, oh,
(39:34):
that's not for us, so we're going to look the
other way. But if you're not present there, like you
are in the world, not of the world, be in
the world, be present, be a light.
Speaker 3 (39:45):
I love that because essentially, I think one of the
big thing that's happened, and we say, what's happened?
Speaker 2 (39:49):
In Christianity?
Speaker 3 (39:50):
We're supposed to be animated by love, which moves, which
does move toward people. It is, it is in there, right.
The only way to be salted light is to be present.
But if Christians are animated by fear, which I think
right now we are, then what happens in fear. We'll
go back to high school biology. Right, it's either fight
or flight. Yeah, So you either flee into your own
(40:12):
little Christian bubble, and which just contributes to the polarization
we have in our culture right where you're in your
little bubble and you talk about people outside your bubble,
but you're not talking to them, which skews your perspective
of them. And it's not the way of Jesus. They've
created us versus them. It just contributes to the us
versus them thing that's happening in culture. One of the
(40:34):
greatest ways we could stick out as Christians is not
do that and not creating us versus them the world,
but to move towards you know, and get out of
our bubble and move right so but in fear, that's
what happened. Or and it's either and or you choose fight.
So you go into fight mode because what we believe
we believe to be true.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
I get that.
Speaker 3 (40:55):
But you but if you exhibit truth through fight and
you come at people push, people are repelled just like
we would be repelled.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Right. It never works to do that.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
And so what you solved the problem. It's not fight
or flight. It's light there you go. I love it.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Yeah, and uh.
Speaker 3 (41:18):
And the Bible says that love casts out all fear.
So if you you know, if you're if you're relating
to culture and love not fear, then you won't fight
or flight. It cast out fear. You'll you know, you'll
move toward culture. And I think Christians have been you know,
I mean, Paul told Timothy, God has not given us
(41:39):
a spirit of fear and timidity, but of love and
power and a sound mind. Right, So we have truth,
we have God, we have the Holy Spirit right there,
and we can in a compelling way and all that
we don't have to play defense. We can move toward people.
We could be an environment. That's why I love the
fact that they're fellow christ follows like you who are
(42:01):
willing to be involved in politics. I don't want to
see the church politicize. That's another culture. That's another conversation.
But I do want to see Christians engaging politics. But
I do want to see Christians engage in politics to
be present, to be sultan like there, to represent Jesus there.
We need way more of that, and there's there's just
(42:23):
far too little of it. And so you know, if
you if you relate to culture out of fight or fight,
no wonder, we're not seen as loving because well we're
actually not being loving, right.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
Yeah. I mean, I could honestly talk to you for hours.
I'm I'm hoping you'll come back some time because this
has been a really fascinating conversation for me, and it
was really I really did go into this and think
I don't know where this is going to go. And
before I came in here, I was like, Okay, God,
you just speak through me, because I don't know how
(42:57):
to have this conversation. But I learned a lot and
I hope that the people listening got a lot out
of it. I think they. I think they will because
I'm going to think about this for a long time tonight.
So Jeff Jones, Pastor Jones, thank you so much for
being here. Thank you, and oh, tell people where they
can find your book, because you have a book, right.
Speaker 2 (43:19):
I do, Rebrain and Christianity.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
Now.
Speaker 3 (43:21):
You can find it on Amazon and some bookstores, but
you can also learn more. There's a podcast as well,
if you've got to rebrain in Christianity dot org.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
Okay, so you can listen more. Pastor Jones, thank you
so much, Thank you, and thank you all for joining
me for the Tutor Dixon Podcast. For this episode and others,
go to Tutor dixonpodcast dot com. You can subscribe right there,
or check out the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get
your podcasts. Join us next time on the Tutor Dixon Podcast.
Have a blessing.
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