February 20, 2024 • 30 mins
After pursuing the evidence Lee Denney still isn’t convinced that Christian Griggs was shot in self-defense. He attempts to bring this information to the DA, but gets nowhere. But Lee isn’t alone in questioning the Chishenhall’s narrative - WRAL the local TV station in Angier begin to question the events of October 12, 2013.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi guys, it's Hillary here. Just a quick note. This
series does deal with a lot of tough subject matter
that may be difficult for some listeners, so please keep
this in mind when and where you choose to listen
to these episodes. Sitting in his car, Lee Denny recounts
(00:20):
the meeting he just had with his heart racing. He
reverses out of the parking lot and speeds away from
the Harnett County District Attorney's office. Nervously glancing from his
rear view mirror back to the road, he wonders if
he'll ever be welcome back in Harnett County again. Last episode,
we met Lee Denny, the private investigator and firearms expert. Lee,
(00:43):
after spending hours going through all the evidence, including crime
scene photos, analyzing the bullet trajectories, and meeting with the
medical examiner, comes to the conclusion that the killing of
Christian Griggs was not done as an act of self defense.
On this episode, we'll explore what's next for Tony and
(01:04):
Dolly Griggs, because despite these findings, the Harnett County District
Attorney still refuses to bring criminal charges against Pat Chisenhall.
I'm Hillary Burton. Morgan and this is true crime story.
It couldn't happen here. Hey, you guys, it's Hillary Burton
(01:32):
Morgan here, and we have another episode for you with
my teammates Dan Flaherty, Poe Kutcheens, and Andrew Dunn. So
you know, last week we spent a lot of time
with Lee Denny and he's the private investigator the Griggs hired.
And at the end of the episode, Lee tells us
that it is improbable that Christian would have been shot
(01:53):
inside like the Chisenhall said, nor in his opinion, would
this type of shooting be covered under the castle doctrine.
And so we have talked at length about the castle doctrine,
but I think Lee spells it out really clearly in
how it relates to this case.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
In North Carolina self defense in your home the way
the law reads, if you're the legal occupant of the
residents and someone is trying to force their way in
force use forcible entry, and they don't have a legal
right to come in, you're allowed to stop them with
(02:33):
deadly force, which means you can shoot them. If they're
coming through the door or through the window. You're allowed
to use deadly force, and you do not need to
know what their intent was, nor do they have to
be armed with any kind of weapon. So that is
(02:57):
the gist of the home self defense. But it takes
those two things illegal and forcible entry.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Now, how does this law and the limits of this
law apply to Christian Griggs.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
It would not be a justifiable self defense shooting with
mister Griggs being outside and mister Chisenhal shooting him from
outside in the back.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
So by those shots which seem by the evidence to
have been taken outside, means and he was Christian no
longer trying to break in, even if he ever was,
Patches don't have had no right.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
To shoot him.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
He had no right to shoot him by stepping outside
of his house and shooting him in the back. He
did have the right to shoot him while mister Chisenhol
was in the house if Christian Griggs was forcing his
way in. But if that, if he was doing that,
if he was and he stopped and turned and was
starting to leave, it was done. It ended. If he
(03:56):
never was forcing his way in and mister Chisenhol went
outside and shot him, he lost that right by going
outside into the fight.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
So we learned from Lee that he doesn't think the
Castle doctrine is applicable in the case of Christian Griggs.
So he tries to have a meeting with the district
attorney to re review the case with all of this
new information, but it does not go exactly as planned.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
During the meeting, we brought up my meeting with the
medical examiner. We also looked at what they were providing us,
which showed the lack of evidence to show this was
a self defense shooting. And it got to the point
where the district attorney asked me if I was accusing
(04:47):
them of a conspiracy, And at that point I told
the district attorney that I was really just asking them
to revalue their case. So, yes, the meeting did become
somewhat hostile. Mister Stuart's actions were to me extreme. I've
(05:14):
met with a lot of district attorneys. I've had other
shooting cases and murder cases where the DA has either
dismissed or done something based on what I have found,
and in this case it was mister Stuart was slamming
the door on us and he wasn't going to reevaluate anything.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
We talk about this all the time. You know the
importance of das and law enforcement being willing to reevaluate
their work and for the community to continue to put
pressure on them to do so. And there are a
number of citizen groups that are raising red flags about
law enforcement in Harnett County. And while we focus on
(05:58):
the Christian Griggs case, there are Facebook groups that didn't
know we were digging into this, and once our episode aired,
all of a sudden, I'm getting friend requests, I'm getting
you know, chats from people with link after link after
link after link. And so this notion that there's corruption
in Harnet County is something that it is prevalent on
(06:20):
the internet. You know, there's been at least one multi
million dollar lawsuit with multiple plaintiffs that has been settled
in Harnet County because of police misconduct. And so when
this very tense meeting ended, Lee was anxious to get
the hell out of Harnett County.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
When we left, I was a little concerned about my
getting out of Harnet County and knowing of all these
other things that had been going on, was certain people.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
A traffic stock that turns into.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Yeah, we had a traffic stock or something like that,
to where you're set up and all of a sudden,
there's drugs found in your car or something like that,
because I mean all this stuff that had been building
up down there for a while anyway. But I was
a little concerned when I left. I was glad when
I was out of Harnett County.
Speaker 4 (07:11):
I can't believe that the law and order man Lee
Denny is afraid to drive away of his own free
will and that he might be arrested falsely or accused
of something falsely by law enforcement in Harnett County. You know,
it's kind of crazy to think that that guy is afraid.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Well he knows. I mean, when you're stopped on the
road by law enforcement, you don't have a whole lot
of options, you know. I mean, they're the ones in charge.
Speaker 5 (07:41):
You're vulnerable.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
You're vulnerable.
Speaker 4 (07:44):
But he's suggesting he would be targeted, that's right.
Speaker 5 (07:47):
Well, the point being that he's showing that he is
facing in that meeting a wall that seems very unreasonable
to him, and it's against the evidence that he's laying out,
and the meeting is so tense, and they sort of
slammed the door in his face at the end of
the meeting like this is over, Like that's not a
(08:09):
thing that Lee Denny usually encounters.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Clearly, it's not an unfounded fear. You know, if you
guys just google Harnett County police corruption, a whole slew
of stuff comes up. There was an incident in twenty fourteen,
right around the time the Griggs family was dealing with
law enforcement, where a couple says they were targeted by
law enforcement and there was excessive use of force used
(08:33):
when they got pulled over, and after they made a complaint,
they alleged that law enforcement just kind of stalked them
outside of their house, and they've set up a whole
website about that. And then in twenty twenty one, there's
a six million dollar settlement and an excessive force case
against Harnett County Sheriff's office. So there is a track record,
(08:54):
you know, the Griggs family, Lee Denny, they are not
unfounded in this discomfort with dealing with Harnett County officials
and the Sheriff's department.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
And he's referencing, like what Hillary would say, that there
have been documented cases and accusations from the Sheriff's department
for excessive use of force. So he's saying there is
a history here.
Speaker 5 (09:13):
But let's just go back. What we're dealing with here
is the county seemingly defying their own emmy report and
refusing to engage meaningfully in a conversation with somebody who
is an expert who is bringing up issues with the
theory that they've accepted of justifiable self defense homicide and
(09:35):
it's not excessive force. He's talking about being targeted. But
I just don't want to get no.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
But I think that there's a sense of don't tell
us how to do our job, that chip on the
shoulder of don't tell us how to do our job.
I mean, this takes zero effort to google this. In
twenty sixteen, you know, not long after Christian's death, the
NAACP went after the Harnett County Sheriff's office. They targeted
(10:00):
poor rural residents and they specifically asked for the US
Department of Justice to come do an investigation. And so
this isn't the Griggs family driving this train. These are
lots of people from lots of different parts of the area,
coming from lots of different angles saying this is a
compromised department and they are not willing to self reflect
(10:21):
and Lee Denny is asking them to do that. He's
asking them to take another look, and they take offense
to it and they dismiss him.
Speaker 4 (10:28):
Well, when you live near rural counties, there's always that
county out there where you say, well, you've got to
watch out for that sheriff. Don't do anything and so
and so county, otherwise.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
They'll get you.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
So law enforcement, even with Lee Denny pushing back, even
with the medical examiner pushing back, and the Griggs family
pushing back, make up their mind this is going nowhere.
We've got a clip from Dolly Gray that tells us that.
Speaker 6 (11:01):
So I realized that Harney County shaff Department in DA
wasn't going to do anything. So I had two choices
to make. I had a choice to sit back and
accept it, or had a choice to fight. And I well,
what I saw that day on the scene, there's no
way I can sit back and just allow that for
(11:21):
them to put this on my son. So I decided
to fight. The first people that I reached out to
was the Color Change and they helped me with some petitions,
and then I started sending emails out to people in
the Southern Coalition of Justice Jeremy Collins. He works with
the governor officer no office now. I think he reached
out to me, who reached out to Robbie and some
(11:43):
other attorneys at that time, and they came down to
our home and they listened.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
To our stories.
Speaker 6 (11:47):
They saw all of the stuff that we had, but
they looked at our son case and they said, for
the Justice cent he took it. And Robbie and John
Davis and I'm I'm so grateful for to day because
they looked beyond money, but they looked at the justice indent.
Speaker 5 (12:05):
That's Robbie Jessop. She's talking about the attorney that we
discussed earlier.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
Yeah, I mean you could see talking to to Dolly
their frustration with the local law enforcement and the local
DA with it, and like your a question before, like
how do you know what to do? Or who do
you reach out to? And they just figured it out.
They made some phone calls and they said who can
help us? Who can help us here? And they ended
up with Robbie Jessop who did fight for them for
(12:30):
all the right reasons, for all the right reasons, for
the justice in it.
Speaker 7 (12:33):
When I saw the inconsistencies with the narrative that had
been told and the physical evidence I had immediately decided
this was a situation where I wanted to get involved
and I wanted to help. This was about a fight
(12:54):
for justice. This was not about a money making opportunity.
This was a chance to help a family that I
believed were the salt of the earth. Great folks served
our country and needed help.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
So Robbie agrees to help the Griggs and their case,
and they decide to file a civil lawsuit against Pat Chisenhall.
And so, just for the people at home who don't know,
what is the difference between a criminal trial and a
civil trial.
Speaker 5 (13:25):
In a criminal trial, the state is suing an individual
for breaking the law. We're talking about murder cases, so
for killing someone, and the state is lobbying that against
the individual. In a civil trial, it is not the state,
It is one of the injured parties, i e. Say,
(13:47):
the family of the murdered person, suing who they say
did murder the person. They're trying to get these people
charged criminally. So civil court can often be a resort.
Sometimes they as resort to try to get law enforcement
to take it seriously. In the criminal justice system.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
And so let's talk about this civil case. Who is
suing whom and what for.
Speaker 4 (14:11):
In this particular case, Griggs's parents, Tony and Dolly are
suing Pat Chisenhall for the wrongful death of Christian Griggs.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
So he's not on trial for murder. Pat Chisenhall, he
is being sued for responsibility in the death of Christian Griggs.
But can we we can't even call it a murder
in the civil trial, can we?
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (14:34):
Then that would be a crime and that would be
up to the state to actually bring action against Pat Chisenhall.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
So Pat Chisenhall, if he is found guilty in this
civil trial, is there risk that he can go to jail.
Speaker 5 (14:45):
The person doesn't go to jail. There's no jail sentence.
That's part of it. They are being sued for liability
and to find a verdict of guilty or not.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
In the case the Griggs family, what do you think
is the more important outcome here that they get a
monetary compensation for their son's death, or that it forces
the hand of law enforcement, hopefully to reopen a criminal investigation.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
They've been pretty clear about that from the beginning. They're
reasoning for initiating this civil suit against Patchisenhol was not
at all about the money, and Jessup tells us that too.
Speaker 7 (15:18):
If the local district attorney isn't going to bring charges
against mister Chisenhall, the criminal system is stuck. There's nothing
else that's going to happen there. So the only recourse
we were left with was to file a civil suit
to seek to hold mister Chisenhall accountable and civil court
(15:42):
and to bring the truth to light there.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
This whole thing cost the money. They are hiring lawyers,
they're hiring investigators, They're spending money to get the evidence
in this case. And if Patchisenhall is found responsible for
Christian's death and the the court awards a monetary fine,
the Griggs aren't going to get that money back even
if they win this case, because any monetary award would
(16:08):
go to Christian's estate, which would go directly to his daughter.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
The Griggs are not saying a dime.
Speaker 5 (16:13):
I think what they're fighting for in a huge way
is Christian's legacy. I think that Christian is being left
as this crazed killer that had to be put down.
I think that they have a great deal of fear
that that's how he will go into history and that
they would like to restore his legacy of who he was,
and not just for him in them, but for his
daughter because at this moment they have no contact with Jaden.
(16:36):
Jaden is raised with the family that says he was
a crazed would be killer that they put down. I
think that they want his true self to be presented
to his own daughter.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
That's a great point in the Griggs estimation. Their son
has been defamed and they're the only people who are
fighting for his reputation, which will affect how their granddaughter
feels about herself. Growing up, you feel very differently about
yourself when you know that your parent is violent, or
(17:06):
you come from a I'm just speaking from personal experience.
You feel different when you know you come from something
that might be more complicated than what your friends come from.
It changes how you grow up in school because.
Speaker 5 (17:18):
How you feel about yourself.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Yeah, when you're living in a small town, everybody knows
each other's business. She's not living in a bubble. And
so for this child to grow up and have information
that her father was not in fact a violent offender
as he's being accused of in the local media right
away or by you know, the lack of action by
law enforcement. Yeah, it's an important move.
Speaker 4 (17:40):
I mean there's two points to that, which is like,
when she grows up, is the story going to be
my daddy was acting bad and trying to kill my mother,
trying to kill my mother and got himself killed justifiably
or did my granddad kill my father? Big difference.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Oh, I hate it for her either way, it's a
lose lose.
Speaker 5 (18:04):
But for her to think of her father as this
monster rather than as a person who loved her and
who was shining and golden in so many ways to
so many people, that's tragic.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Yeah, And that is why the Griggs family has been
so careful about bad mouthing anyone. They really stick to
this happened, This happened, This happened, the facts of the case,
and they almost make a point of removing their own
thoughts and feelings away from it so that it really is.
Speaker 5 (18:34):
Just the fact, ma'am.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Yeah, it's just the facts. So, as we were discussing earlier,
the Grigs have to spend a lot of their own
money to get access to any evidence in this case,
(18:56):
and so why wouldn't the Grigs just have a medium
access to everything if there's not a criminal court.
Speaker 5 (19:02):
They don't get discovery, which is the whole body of
the investigation documentation. They don't get that, and that's what
they want because that's how they can look in and
see what the different pieces of evidence are and see
if there's a different way to interpret them than the
police have. So now they finally have access.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
Before the civil chargers were filed, the Griggs and those
working on their behalf, includingly Denny, were really limited in
what they can get. But now the attorneys are able
to subpoena, they're able to have depositions, they're able to
talk to witnesses, and it allowed them more access and
their hopes were again to once all this evidence came forward,
it came to light that then law enforcement and the
(19:43):
DA would take that information and say, Okay, people are
watching now, they're paying attention.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Now if there's a civil case happening, there is something
for the local media to report on. Families just filing
complaints that's not going to get reported on, but people
having to s show up day after day to a
courtroom and a judge and a jury pool. All of
that is spectacle that can be reported on in the community.
(20:09):
And hopefully that is how a family like the Griggs
raises support. I think we can all agree that in
this day and age, it is super easy to see
like a breaking news headline or a news brief and
take that initial headline as the gospel. You know, that's
the be all and all truth. But then as more
(20:30):
news and more information comes out afterwards, it feels like
that initial breaking news story is all anyone remembers. You know,
no one knows the updates, no one sees the story
on page four a week or a month or even
a year later. It's that initial rush to judgment that
everyone remembers. And so in this case, what everyone remembers
(20:55):
right off the bat is that it was self defense.
You know, that's the kind of narrative the community accepts,
and that's what the Grigs are up against for years.
But then WRL, which is the local news station in
North Carolina, they do something that's kind of surprising. Here.
They release a five episode investigative story surrounding Christian's death, But.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
It wasn't just about Christian's death. They're also tying it
into larger context. The title of their series is Presumption
of Fear. They're tying it directly into the effects of
the Castle doctrine law. The documentary series highlights the debate
around the castle doctrine by reminding viewers that Chisenhall stated
he fired the gun when Christian Griggs came through the window,
(21:39):
but this time instead of stopping there, WRL shared some
of the findings that the Griggs team uncovered.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Right, like from Michael Knox, who is a forensic consultant
who worked with the Griggs You know, he further questions
this Chisenhall narrative because he couldn't find any bullet holes
through the window and nothing through the blind and the screen,
as well as the shots to the back, stomach, and shoulder.
It's interesting that WRAL was the first to put out
(22:08):
these reports of self defense and I can't help but
wonder if the public really knew these details that Michael
Knox focused on, would there be public outrage?
Speaker 8 (22:19):
You Know?
Speaker 1 (22:20):
What's also interesting is that years later WRAL decides to
reopen this case and look further, and then they're the
ones that really start to question the narrative that they
originally put out.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
That's right, one hand, It's like, Okay, this is an
incident that happened locally, somebody comes under a quick report
and it's done. But later on two reporters with WRAL,
Tyler Dukes and Mandy Bittchell, come in and do a
full investigative report and they really dig in.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
So, yeah, I want to talk about Tyler Dan You
sat down with him. Tell us who he is.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Tyler Dukes is an investigative reporter as a journalist who
was working for WRAL at the time of Christian's death,
and he didn't cover the actual shooting death. WRAL did,
but it wasn't him directly covering that.
Speaker 5 (23:05):
Yeah, his colleagues were their first day, but he came
in later.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:09):
But then as this case unfolded and as the Griggs
family filed a wrongful death suit against Pat Chisenhall, he
dug in and started working with other journalists to tell
this story leading up to the civil case.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
And it feels like the angle that Tyler Dukes and
the WRAL team took in their reporting was in total
contrast to those initial reports. You know, they're kind of
doing exactly what the Griggs hoped the county would do,
which is take another look and not just accept what
the initial story was. How did Tyler arrive at this
(23:47):
different perspective.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
Well once, I mean he admits it. He's like, I
got involved in this case and started looking at the
documentation sort of interviewing people. He spoke to the Griggs,
he spoke to everybody involved in this as he could,
and he started getting a picture of a much more
complicated story than what Wril initially reported the day after
(24:12):
Christian's death.
Speaker 5 (24:13):
Which had been a man kills in self defense. Like
that's just what they said, and that was that, and
that's how it was, and there wasn't a huge amount
of reporting. And in this case, it's like, everybody's very
lucky that a very bright and hard working journalist really
dug his teeth into this, because a lot wouldn't be
known if he hadn't.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Tyler is really passionate about this kind of journalism and
telling these stories, and you can hear it in his voice.
Speaker 8 (24:38):
I think what really stood out to me about this
case not just that we didn't have all the answers.
That's pretty typical of crimes and crime stories, so there's
just a lot of things we're never going to know.
But it was the combination of those unanswered questions with
some bigger questions that dealt with, you know, why this
person was never charged, what it takes to be charged
(25:00):
with killing somebody on your front porch. And underneath the
surface of this was the civil case that was going
to come to trial. And the specific question here was
was Pat Chisenhall responsible for the wrongful death of Christian Griggs?
And I think answering that in a civil trial when
(25:21):
there was never a criminal charge present, I think it
was really compelling to me, and I think also raised
a couple of frankly very important questions about how families
seek justice in North Carolina.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Dan. How important is the work that local news does
in these cases.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
I mean, the fact that WRIL did this pretty large
investigation into this story certainly helped us. I mean, I
mean it possible, yeah, I mean we were able to
read the work that they had done, and it was.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
The first thing you guys sent to me to just
consider the case, like, take a look at this, is
this something that we want to pursue exactly?
Speaker 3 (26:00):
And then we spoke to Tyler and we spoke to
Mandy and then, you know, so we certainly understood what
they went through to report this story.
Speaker 4 (26:08):
They're committed journalists. And yes, it's hard to put the
word journalists an advocate into the same sentence. They're kind
of not supposed to know.
Speaker 5 (26:16):
They're not advocates. They were not advocates. You don't use
the same word because they're not. They are journalists that
are actually really digging and doing a story that they
see as warrant's attention.
Speaker 4 (26:25):
That's all They journalism and advocacy for the truth and
the facts. That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
Yeah, no, for sure, if they were very careful in
the reporting that it was journalistic and accurate and factual.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
I mean, this is a really good example of how
small town journalism can expand beyond just their community. You know.
Because of this reporting that WRAL did, we took notice,
you know, and then our hope is that through our
TV show and this podcast, more and more people will
do the same. I would go so far as to
(26:58):
say that even just the announce of a civil case
is a bit of a turning point in this narrative.
You know, It's like the first time anyone's listening to
the Griggs is.
Speaker 5 (27:08):
The turning point. If you don't have access to a
thorough investigation, if there's no charges brought and you know,
if you're not able to shine a light on it
and have a story to tell with proof. So the
trial coming to a civil trial, the local news starting
to be able to cover it because there's something to
cover that they can get their teeth into, and then
(27:29):
us being able to come in and dissect it is
only kind of possible because we have that meat. Doing
it on your own without it, you know, you can
write a piece up on it, but to get that
word out is so difficult without the pieces that are
forced by jurisprudence, by the courts.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
The Griggs family is lighting lanterns, right, I mean, bad
things happen in darkness when no one's looking and no
one can see the full picture, and so they see
that there's something wrong. Lee Denny becomes a lann for them.
Robbie Jessup the lawyer's involvement, that becomes a lantern. The
investigative peace by Wral that becomes another lantern. Now, by
(28:11):
the time the civil trial begins in December of twenty eighteen,
there's an opportunity for all of the facts of the
case to be illuminated. And so the civil trial is
where we're heading in our next episode. That's it for
this week's episode of True Crime Story It Couldn't Happen Here,
But be sure to join us next week as we
(28:32):
dive deeper into the Christian Griggs case. How long is
the jury out before they come back?
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Ninety three minutes? Ninety three minutes.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
That's it. That's it. Join us next week as we
continue to roll up our sleeves and dig in. Thank
you so much for joining us. If you haven't watched
Sundance TV's True Crime Story It Couldn't Happen Here, you
can catch all of our episodes streaming on AMC Plus.
(29:04):
For more information about this and other cases we've covered,
follow at ic HH stories on Instagram. True Crime Story
It Couldn't Happen Here was produced by Mischief Farm in
association with Bungalow Media and Entertainment, Authentic Management Productions, and
Figdonia in partnership with Sundance TV. Executive producers are me
(29:28):
Hillary Burton, Morgan Liz Accessor, Robert Friedman, Mike Powers, and
Meg Mortimer. Producers are Maggie Robinson Katz and Libby Siegel.
Our audio engineer is Brendan Dalton, with original music by
Philip ridiotis. We want to say a special thank you
to everyone who participated, but especially the families impacted by
(29:52):
our cases.
Hi guys, it's Hillary here. Just a quick note. This
series does deal with a lot of tough subject matter
that may be difficult for some listeners, so please keep
this in mind when and where you choose to listen
to these episodes. Sitting in his car, Lee Denny recounts
(00:20):
the meeting he just had with his heart racing. He
reverses out of the parking lot and speeds away from
the Harnett County District Attorney's office. Nervously glancing from his
rear view mirror back to the road, he wonders if
he'll ever be welcome back in Harnett County again. Last episode,
we met Lee Denny, the private investigator and firearms expert. Lee,
(00:43):
after spending hours going through all the evidence, including crime
scene photos, analyzing the bullet trajectories, and meeting with the
medical examiner, comes to the conclusion that the killing of
Christian Griggs was not done as an act of self defense.
On this episode, we'll explore what's next for Tony and
(01:04):
Dolly Griggs, because despite these findings, the Harnett County District
Attorney still refuses to bring criminal charges against Pat Chisenhall.
I'm Hillary Burton. Morgan and this is true crime story.
It couldn't happen here. Hey, you guys, it's Hillary Burton
(01:32):
Morgan here, and we have another episode for you with
my teammates Dan Flaherty, Poe Kutcheens, and Andrew Dunn. So
you know, last week we spent a lot of time
with Lee Denny and he's the private investigator the Griggs hired.
And at the end of the episode, Lee tells us
that it is improbable that Christian would have been shot
(01:53):
inside like the Chisenhall said, nor in his opinion, would
this type of shooting be covered under the castle doctrine.
And so we have talked at length about the castle doctrine,
but I think Lee spells it out really clearly in
how it relates to this case.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
In North Carolina self defense in your home the way
the law reads, if you're the legal occupant of the
residents and someone is trying to force their way in
force use forcible entry, and they don't have a legal
right to come in, you're allowed to stop them with
(02:33):
deadly force, which means you can shoot them. If they're
coming through the door or through the window. You're allowed
to use deadly force, and you do not need to
know what their intent was, nor do they have to
be armed with any kind of weapon. So that is
(02:57):
the gist of the home self defense. But it takes
those two things illegal and forcible entry.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Now, how does this law and the limits of this
law apply to Christian Griggs.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
It would not be a justifiable self defense shooting with
mister Griggs being outside and mister Chisenhal shooting him from
outside in the back.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
So by those shots which seem by the evidence to
have been taken outside, means and he was Christian no
longer trying to break in, even if he ever was,
Patches don't have had no right.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
To shoot him.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
He had no right to shoot him by stepping outside
of his house and shooting him in the back. He
did have the right to shoot him while mister Chisenhol
was in the house if Christian Griggs was forcing his
way in. But if that, if he was doing that,
if he was and he stopped and turned and was
starting to leave, it was done. It ended. If he
(03:56):
never was forcing his way in and mister Chisenhol went
outside and shot him, he lost that right by going
outside into the fight.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
So we learned from Lee that he doesn't think the
Castle doctrine is applicable in the case of Christian Griggs.
So he tries to have a meeting with the district
attorney to re review the case with all of this
new information, but it does not go exactly as planned.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
During the meeting, we brought up my meeting with the
medical examiner. We also looked at what they were providing us,
which showed the lack of evidence to show this was
a self defense shooting. And it got to the point
where the district attorney asked me if I was accusing
(04:47):
them of a conspiracy, And at that point I told
the district attorney that I was really just asking them
to revalue their case. So, yes, the meeting did become
somewhat hostile. Mister Stuart's actions were to me extreme. I've
(05:14):
met with a lot of district attorneys. I've had other
shooting cases and murder cases where the DA has either
dismissed or done something based on what I have found,
and in this case it was mister Stuart was slamming
the door on us and he wasn't going to reevaluate anything.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
We talk about this all the time. You know the
importance of das and law enforcement being willing to reevaluate
their work and for the community to continue to put
pressure on them to do so. And there are a
number of citizen groups that are raising red flags about
law enforcement in Harnett County. And while we focus on
(05:58):
the Christian Griggs case, there are Facebook groups that didn't
know we were digging into this, and once our episode aired,
all of a sudden, I'm getting friend requests, I'm getting
you know, chats from people with link after link after
link after link. And so this notion that there's corruption
in Harnet County is something that it is prevalent on
(06:20):
the internet. You know, there's been at least one multi
million dollar lawsuit with multiple plaintiffs that has been settled
in Harnet County because of police misconduct. And so when
this very tense meeting ended, Lee was anxious to get
the hell out of Harnett County.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
When we left, I was a little concerned about my
getting out of Harnet County and knowing of all these
other things that had been going on, was certain people.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
A traffic stock that turns into.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Yeah, we had a traffic stock or something like that,
to where you're set up and all of a sudden,
there's drugs found in your car or something like that,
because I mean all this stuff that had been building
up down there for a while anyway. But I was
a little concerned when I left. I was glad when
I was out of Harnett County.
Speaker 4 (07:11):
I can't believe that the law and order man Lee
Denny is afraid to drive away of his own free
will and that he might be arrested falsely or accused
of something falsely by law enforcement in Harnett County. You know,
it's kind of crazy to think that that guy is afraid.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Well he knows. I mean, when you're stopped on the
road by law enforcement, you don't have a whole lot
of options, you know. I mean, they're the ones in charge.
Speaker 5 (07:41):
You're vulnerable.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
You're vulnerable.
Speaker 4 (07:44):
But he's suggesting he would be targeted, that's right.
Speaker 5 (07:47):
Well, the point being that he's showing that he is
facing in that meeting a wall that seems very unreasonable
to him, and it's against the evidence that he's laying out,
and the meeting is so tense, and they sort of
slammed the door in his face at the end of
the meeting like this is over, Like that's not a
(08:09):
thing that Lee Denny usually encounters.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Clearly, it's not an unfounded fear. You know, if you
guys just google Harnett County police corruption, a whole slew
of stuff comes up. There was an incident in twenty fourteen,
right around the time the Griggs family was dealing with
law enforcement, where a couple says they were targeted by
law enforcement and there was excessive use of force used
(08:33):
when they got pulled over, and after they made a complaint,
they alleged that law enforcement just kind of stalked them
outside of their house, and they've set up a whole
website about that. And then in twenty twenty one, there's
a six million dollar settlement and an excessive force case
against Harnett County Sheriff's office. So there is a track record,
(08:54):
you know, the Griggs family, Lee Denny, they are not
unfounded in this discomfort with dealing with Harnett County officials
and the Sheriff's department.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
And he's referencing, like what Hillary would say, that there
have been documented cases and accusations from the Sheriff's department
for excessive use of force. So he's saying there is
a history here.
Speaker 5 (09:13):
But let's just go back. What we're dealing with here
is the county seemingly defying their own emmy report and
refusing to engage meaningfully in a conversation with somebody who
is an expert who is bringing up issues with the
theory that they've accepted of justifiable self defense homicide and
(09:35):
it's not excessive force. He's talking about being targeted. But
I just don't want to get no.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
But I think that there's a sense of don't tell
us how to do our job, that chip on the
shoulder of don't tell us how to do our job.
I mean, this takes zero effort to google this. In
twenty sixteen, you know, not long after Christian's death, the
NAACP went after the Harnett County Sheriff's office. They targeted
(10:00):
poor rural residents and they specifically asked for the US
Department of Justice to come do an investigation. And so
this isn't the Griggs family driving this train. These are
lots of people from lots of different parts of the area,
coming from lots of different angles saying this is a
compromised department and they are not willing to self reflect
(10:21):
and Lee Denny is asking them to do that. He's
asking them to take another look, and they take offense
to it and they dismiss him.
Speaker 4 (10:28):
Well, when you live near rural counties, there's always that
county out there where you say, well, you've got to
watch out for that sheriff. Don't do anything and so
and so county, otherwise.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
They'll get you.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
So law enforcement, even with Lee Denny pushing back, even
with the medical examiner pushing back, and the Griggs family
pushing back, make up their mind this is going nowhere.
We've got a clip from Dolly Gray that tells us that.
Speaker 6 (11:01):
So I realized that Harney County shaff Department in DA
wasn't going to do anything. So I had two choices
to make. I had a choice to sit back and
accept it, or had a choice to fight. And I well,
what I saw that day on the scene, there's no
way I can sit back and just allow that for
(11:21):
them to put this on my son. So I decided
to fight. The first people that I reached out to
was the Color Change and they helped me with some petitions,
and then I started sending emails out to people in
the Southern Coalition of Justice Jeremy Collins. He works with
the governor officer no office now. I think he reached
out to me, who reached out to Robbie and some
(11:43):
other attorneys at that time, and they came down to
our home and they listened.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
To our stories.
Speaker 6 (11:47):
They saw all of the stuff that we had, but
they looked at our son case and they said, for
the Justice cent he took it. And Robbie and John
Davis and I'm I'm so grateful for to day because
they looked beyond money, but they looked at the justice indent.
Speaker 5 (12:05):
That's Robbie Jessop. She's talking about the attorney that we
discussed earlier.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
Yeah, I mean you could see talking to to Dolly
their frustration with the local law enforcement and the local
DA with it, and like your a question before, like
how do you know what to do? Or who do
you reach out to? And they just figured it out.
They made some phone calls and they said who can
help us? Who can help us here? And they ended
up with Robbie Jessop who did fight for them for
(12:30):
all the right reasons, for all the right reasons, for
the justice in it.
Speaker 7 (12:33):
When I saw the inconsistencies with the narrative that had
been told and the physical evidence I had immediately decided
this was a situation where I wanted to get involved
and I wanted to help. This was about a fight
(12:54):
for justice. This was not about a money making opportunity.
This was a chance to help a family that I
believed were the salt of the earth. Great folks served
our country and needed help.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
So Robbie agrees to help the Griggs and their case,
and they decide to file a civil lawsuit against Pat Chisenhall.
And so, just for the people at home who don't know,
what is the difference between a criminal trial and a
civil trial.
Speaker 5 (13:25):
In a criminal trial, the state is suing an individual
for breaking the law. We're talking about murder cases, so
for killing someone, and the state is lobbying that against
the individual. In a civil trial, it is not the state,
It is one of the injured parties, i e. Say,
(13:47):
the family of the murdered person, suing who they say
did murder the person. They're trying to get these people
charged criminally. So civil court can often be a resort.
Sometimes they as resort to try to get law enforcement
to take it seriously. In the criminal justice system.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
And so let's talk about this civil case. Who is
suing whom and what for.
Speaker 4 (14:11):
In this particular case, Griggs's parents, Tony and Dolly are
suing Pat Chisenhall for the wrongful death of Christian Griggs.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
So he's not on trial for murder. Pat Chisenhall, he
is being sued for responsibility in the death of Christian Griggs.
But can we we can't even call it a murder
in the civil trial, can we?
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (14:34):
Then that would be a crime and that would be
up to the state to actually bring action against Pat Chisenhall.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
So Pat Chisenhall, if he is found guilty in this
civil trial, is there risk that he can go to jail.
Speaker 5 (14:45):
The person doesn't go to jail. There's no jail sentence.
That's part of it. They are being sued for liability
and to find a verdict of guilty or not.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
In the case the Griggs family, what do you think
is the more important outcome here that they get a
monetary compensation for their son's death, or that it forces
the hand of law enforcement, hopefully to reopen a criminal investigation.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
They've been pretty clear about that from the beginning. They're
reasoning for initiating this civil suit against Patchisenhol was not
at all about the money, and Jessup tells us that too.
Speaker 7 (15:18):
If the local district attorney isn't going to bring charges
against mister Chisenhall, the criminal system is stuck. There's nothing
else that's going to happen there. So the only recourse
we were left with was to file a civil suit
to seek to hold mister Chisenhall accountable and civil court
(15:42):
and to bring the truth to light there.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
This whole thing cost the money. They are hiring lawyers,
they're hiring investigators, They're spending money to get the evidence
in this case. And if Patchisenhall is found responsible for
Christian's death and the the court awards a monetary fine,
the Griggs aren't going to get that money back even
if they win this case, because any monetary award would
(16:08):
go to Christian's estate, which would go directly to his daughter.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
The Griggs are not saying a dime.
Speaker 5 (16:13):
I think what they're fighting for in a huge way
is Christian's legacy. I think that Christian is being left
as this crazed killer that had to be put down.
I think that they have a great deal of fear
that that's how he will go into history and that
they would like to restore his legacy of who he was,
and not just for him in them, but for his
daughter because at this moment they have no contact with Jaden.
(16:36):
Jaden is raised with the family that says he was
a crazed would be killer that they put down. I
think that they want his true self to be presented
to his own daughter.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
That's a great point in the Griggs estimation. Their son
has been defamed and they're the only people who are
fighting for his reputation, which will affect how their granddaughter
feels about herself. Growing up, you feel very differently about
yourself when you know that your parent is violent, or
(17:06):
you come from a I'm just speaking from personal experience.
You feel different when you know you come from something
that might be more complicated than what your friends come from.
It changes how you grow up in school because.
Speaker 5 (17:18):
How you feel about yourself.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Yeah, when you're living in a small town, everybody knows
each other's business. She's not living in a bubble. And
so for this child to grow up and have information
that her father was not in fact a violent offender
as he's being accused of in the local media right
away or by you know, the lack of action by
law enforcement. Yeah, it's an important move.
Speaker 4 (17:40):
I mean there's two points to that, which is like,
when she grows up, is the story going to be
my daddy was acting bad and trying to kill my mother,
trying to kill my mother and got himself killed justifiably
or did my granddad kill my father? Big difference.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Oh, I hate it for her either way, it's a
lose lose.
Speaker 5 (18:04):
But for her to think of her father as this
monster rather than as a person who loved her and
who was shining and golden in so many ways to
so many people, that's tragic.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Yeah, And that is why the Griggs family has been
so careful about bad mouthing anyone. They really stick to
this happened, This happened, This happened, the facts of the case,
and they almost make a point of removing their own
thoughts and feelings away from it so that it really is.
Speaker 5 (18:34):
Just the fact, ma'am.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Yeah, it's just the facts. So, as we were discussing earlier,
the Grigs have to spend a lot of their own
money to get access to any evidence in this case,
(18:56):
and so why wouldn't the Grigs just have a medium
access to everything if there's not a criminal court.
Speaker 5 (19:02):
They don't get discovery, which is the whole body of
the investigation documentation. They don't get that, and that's what
they want because that's how they can look in and
see what the different pieces of evidence are and see
if there's a different way to interpret them than the
police have. So now they finally have access.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
Before the civil chargers were filed, the Griggs and those
working on their behalf, includingly Denny, were really limited in
what they can get. But now the attorneys are able
to subpoena, they're able to have depositions, they're able to
talk to witnesses, and it allowed them more access and
their hopes were again to once all this evidence came forward,
it came to light that then law enforcement and the
(19:43):
DA would take that information and say, Okay, people are
watching now, they're paying attention.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Now if there's a civil case happening, there is something
for the local media to report on. Families just filing
complaints that's not going to get reported on, but people
having to s show up day after day to a
courtroom and a judge and a jury pool. All of
that is spectacle that can be reported on in the community.
(20:09):
And hopefully that is how a family like the Griggs
raises support. I think we can all agree that in
this day and age, it is super easy to see
like a breaking news headline or a news brief and
take that initial headline as the gospel. You know, that's
the be all and all truth. But then as more
(20:30):
news and more information comes out afterwards, it feels like
that initial breaking news story is all anyone remembers. You know,
no one knows the updates, no one sees the story
on page four a week or a month or even
a year later. It's that initial rush to judgment that
everyone remembers. And so in this case, what everyone remembers
(20:55):
right off the bat is that it was self defense.
You know, that's the kind of narrative the community accepts,
and that's what the Grigs are up against for years.
But then WRL, which is the local news station in
North Carolina, they do something that's kind of surprising. Here.
They release a five episode investigative story surrounding Christian's death, But.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
It wasn't just about Christian's death. They're also tying it
into larger context. The title of their series is Presumption
of Fear. They're tying it directly into the effects of
the Castle doctrine law. The documentary series highlights the debate
around the castle doctrine by reminding viewers that Chisenhall stated
he fired the gun when Christian Griggs came through the window,
(21:39):
but this time instead of stopping there, WRL shared some
of the findings that the Griggs team uncovered.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Right, like from Michael Knox, who is a forensic consultant
who worked with the Griggs You know, he further questions
this Chisenhall narrative because he couldn't find any bullet holes
through the window and nothing through the blind and the screen,
as well as the shots to the back, stomach, and shoulder.
It's interesting that WRAL was the first to put out
(22:08):
these reports of self defense and I can't help but
wonder if the public really knew these details that Michael
Knox focused on, would there be public outrage?
Speaker 8 (22:19):
You Know?
Speaker 1 (22:20):
What's also interesting is that years later WRAL decides to
reopen this case and look further, and then they're the
ones that really start to question the narrative that they
originally put out.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
That's right, one hand, It's like, Okay, this is an
incident that happened locally, somebody comes under a quick report
and it's done. But later on two reporters with WRAL,
Tyler Dukes and Mandy Bittchell, come in and do a
full investigative report and they really dig in.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
So, yeah, I want to talk about Tyler Dan You
sat down with him. Tell us who he is.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Tyler Dukes is an investigative reporter as a journalist who
was working for WRAL at the time of Christian's death,
and he didn't cover the actual shooting death. WRAL did,
but it wasn't him directly covering that.
Speaker 5 (23:05):
Yeah, his colleagues were their first day, but he came
in later.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:09):
But then as this case unfolded and as the Griggs
family filed a wrongful death suit against Pat Chisenhall, he
dug in and started working with other journalists to tell
this story leading up to the civil case.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
And it feels like the angle that Tyler Dukes and
the WRAL team took in their reporting was in total
contrast to those initial reports. You know, they're kind of
doing exactly what the Griggs hoped the county would do,
which is take another look and not just accept what
the initial story was. How did Tyler arrive at this
(23:47):
different perspective.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
Well once, I mean he admits it. He's like, I
got involved in this case and started looking at the
documentation sort of interviewing people. He spoke to the Griggs,
he spoke to everybody involved in this as he could,
and he started getting a picture of a much more
complicated story than what Wril initially reported the day after
(24:12):
Christian's death.
Speaker 5 (24:13):
Which had been a man kills in self defense. Like
that's just what they said, and that was that, and
that's how it was, and there wasn't a huge amount
of reporting. And in this case, it's like, everybody's very
lucky that a very bright and hard working journalist really
dug his teeth into this, because a lot wouldn't be
known if he hadn't.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Tyler is really passionate about this kind of journalism and
telling these stories, and you can hear it in his voice.
Speaker 8 (24:38):
I think what really stood out to me about this
case not just that we didn't have all the answers.
That's pretty typical of crimes and crime stories, so there's
just a lot of things we're never going to know.
But it was the combination of those unanswered questions with
some bigger questions that dealt with, you know, why this
person was never charged, what it takes to be charged
(25:00):
with killing somebody on your front porch. And underneath the
surface of this was the civil case that was going
to come to trial. And the specific question here was
was Pat Chisenhall responsible for the wrongful death of Christian Griggs?
And I think answering that in a civil trial when
(25:21):
there was never a criminal charge present, I think it
was really compelling to me, and I think also raised
a couple of frankly very important questions about how families
seek justice in North Carolina.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Dan. How important is the work that local news does
in these cases.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
I mean, the fact that WRIL did this pretty large
investigation into this story certainly helped us. I mean, I
mean it possible, yeah, I mean we were able to
read the work that they had done, and it was.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
The first thing you guys sent to me to just
consider the case, like, take a look at this, is
this something that we want to pursue exactly?
Speaker 3 (26:00):
And then we spoke to Tyler and we spoke to
Mandy and then, you know, so we certainly understood what
they went through to report this story.
Speaker 4 (26:08):
They're committed journalists. And yes, it's hard to put the
word journalists an advocate into the same sentence. They're kind
of not supposed to know.
Speaker 5 (26:16):
They're not advocates. They were not advocates. You don't use
the same word because they're not. They are journalists that
are actually really digging and doing a story that they
see as warrant's attention.
Speaker 4 (26:25):
That's all They journalism and advocacy for the truth and
the facts. That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
Yeah, no, for sure, if they were very careful in
the reporting that it was journalistic and accurate and factual.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
I mean, this is a really good example of how
small town journalism can expand beyond just their community. You know.
Because of this reporting that WRAL did, we took notice,
you know, and then our hope is that through our
TV show and this podcast, more and more people will
do the same. I would go so far as to
(26:58):
say that even just the announce of a civil case
is a bit of a turning point in this narrative.
You know, It's like the first time anyone's listening to
the Griggs is.
Speaker 5 (27:08):
The turning point. If you don't have access to a
thorough investigation, if there's no charges brought and you know,
if you're not able to shine a light on it
and have a story to tell with proof. So the
trial coming to a civil trial, the local news starting
to be able to cover it because there's something to
cover that they can get their teeth into, and then
(27:29):
us being able to come in and dissect it is
only kind of possible because we have that meat. Doing
it on your own without it, you know, you can
write a piece up on it, but to get that
word out is so difficult without the pieces that are
forced by jurisprudence, by the courts.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
The Griggs family is lighting lanterns, right, I mean, bad
things happen in darkness when no one's looking and no
one can see the full picture, and so they see
that there's something wrong. Lee Denny becomes a lann for them.
Robbie Jessup the lawyer's involvement, that becomes a lantern. The
investigative peace by Wral that becomes another lantern. Now, by
(28:11):
the time the civil trial begins in December of twenty eighteen,
there's an opportunity for all of the facts of the
case to be illuminated. And so the civil trial is
where we're heading in our next episode. That's it for
this week's episode of True Crime Story It Couldn't Happen Here,
But be sure to join us next week as we
(28:32):
dive deeper into the Christian Griggs case. How long is
the jury out before they come back?
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Ninety three minutes? Ninety three minutes.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
That's it. That's it. Join us next week as we
continue to roll up our sleeves and dig in. Thank
you so much for joining us. If you haven't watched
Sundance TV's True Crime Story It Couldn't Happen Here, you
can catch all of our episodes streaming on AMC Plus.
(29:04):
For more information about this and other cases we've covered,
follow at ic HH stories on Instagram. True Crime Story
It Couldn't Happen Here was produced by Mischief Farm in
association with Bungalow Media and Entertainment, Authentic Management Productions, and
Figdonia in partnership with Sundance TV. Executive producers are me
(29:28):
Hillary Burton, Morgan Liz Accessor, Robert Friedman, Mike Powers, and
Meg Mortimer. Producers are Maggie Robinson Katz and Libby Siegel.
Our audio engineer is Brendan Dalton, with original music by
Philip ridiotis. We want to say a special thank you
to everyone who participated, but especially the families impacted by
(29:52):
our cases.
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