Hilarie sits down with two people directly involved in our cases this season. First, Hilarie talks with Christian’s sister Krystle Miller to hear her experience living through her brother’s death as well as more ways you can support the Griggs family in their pursuit for justice. Hilarie also sits down with Scott Poggensee from the Brandon Woodruff case who will share updates on where the case currently stands and how Brandon is doing today.
For more information about this and other cases we've covered, follow @ICHHstories on Instagram.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi guys, it's Hillary here. Just a quick note. This
series does deal with a lot of tough subject matter
that may be difficult for some listeners, so please keep
this in mind when and where you choose to listen
to these episodes. Last episode, we've finished our exploration of
the Christian Griggs case and also shared some resources for
(00:23):
those of you who would like to support the Griggs
family in their search for justice. On this episode, I'm
going to be chatting with two people directly connected to
our cases this season. First, I'll be speaking with Christian's
sister Crystal about her experience living through her brother's death,
as well as more ways you can support the Griggs
(00:44):
family as they put pressure on Harnett County and the
state of North Carolina. Then, I'm going to be speaking
with Scott Pogancy from the Brandon WOODRUF case, who shares
not only updates about where the case currently stands, but
how Brandon is due. Today I'm Hillary Burton Morgan, and
(01:04):
this is true crime story It Couldn't Happen Here. Hi,
you guys, welcome to another episode of It Couldn't Happen
(01:27):
Here the podcast. I have a guest today that I personally,
am really excited to talk to because we've never been
able to speak face to face before. I'm with Crystal,
Christian Greg's sister, and we only ever spoke on the
phone when I was at your parents' house. And so
for our audience, if you could tell us a little
(01:48):
bit about your background and where you're from, just so
you know they have a sense of who you are
outside of this story.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yeah, it's great to be able to finally have someone here.
My perspective, from a sister's point of view, I feel
like that doesn't happen often, so kind of starting from
growing up wise, I was always known as Christian Griggs
little sister. I don't think I ever developed my own
(02:21):
personal like self until he was like out of school, honestly. So,
I even remember growing up in middle school, especially because
he was popular and soccer star and all of these things,
and it was like, oh, yeah, you're Christian Gregg's little sister.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Every teacher, every kid.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
I had all of the same teachers, his friends, their
siblings were my friends. So it very much was that
like small town feel, you know, where it's like everyone
knows everyone, Everyone knew Christian, everyone loved Christian and so
it always felt like I had just these really big
shoes to fill, and I in a way enjoyed that
(03:01):
because it was kind of easy. Like I felt like,
as a little sister, it could be better. He was great,
you know, he was smart, and so all of the
people expected that from me to I just think growing up,
we had this fun upbringing that you didn't have to
like really stress because we were protected, we were loved,
(03:22):
we were cared for.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Yeah, I mean your parents. I fell for your parents.
The second I walked into your parents' home. It was
like go into a you know when you go to
your friend's parents' house, and like you're able to just
walk in and go into the refrigerator and hang out
and sit on the couch. Your parents are so warm.
Even after this whole experience, your mother has applauded everything
I've done in the year and a half since I've
(03:45):
met them. You know, like when your parents pick someone,
it feels like it's for life, and it feels so lovely.
And the thing that struck me was that it was
so clear what pillars of the community your family was.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Yes, and you know, my dad A lot of people
don't understand too, is that he's also military, like active duty,
so like his ability to you know, show up for
us but also do those things, Like I don't think
sometimes people understand like the magnitude of that.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
To be able to emotionally carry both that really dark
stuff and really light stuff for your children is that's
a huge feat exactly.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Yes, And so you know, now that I'm a parent
myself too, I see that the ability to do that
is really special and not a lot of people have
that capacity. But yes, growing up it just brings like
the biggest smile to my face all the time because
we had literally the best upbringing. It's what truly made
(04:49):
me so excited to have my own family one day.
And even still to this day, my friends call my
mom Dolly girl because she has been there for my
friends and their kids. But like I do think that
pivotal moment in my life was when Christian died. I
had almost like this naive trust in people to just
(05:13):
inherently do the right thing. So you grow up thinking
that's what the world is like, and then this happened
with Christian and I realized that, like, wait, that's not
how the world works, that's not Unfortunately, you know, I
thought Patchies and Hall would go to jail, and I
just remember that moment when I found out he didn't,
(05:36):
and my entire world changed in that moment.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
And you have now watched the story of your family
play out in a couple different mediums. You know, obviously
we're in the podcast right now. We did the TV episode,
but if you could take me back to the first
coverage of what happened to Christian and what that felt
like to have your family on TV and how they
(06:02):
were depicted.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
So when it first happened, it's just so hard to
see someone else write something about your family who was
not there, right, So I think that's always first the
most difficult part because even now I'm sharing with you,
like all of the things that Christian was and then
our family was and still is, and then they write
(06:24):
a news article that doesn't match those things whatsoever. So
I remember exactly when it first happened. We had just
left the hospital, Christian had passed away, We already said
goodbye all of that, and then we drove back home,
which is probably the quietest moment of my eyes still
(06:46):
can like feel and hear, just because I remember we
were driving down the road and like you could hear
just like every little bump under the tire, like every
little like piece of groul or anything that you drove over,
because it's like what do you say to each other?
Speaker 3 (07:04):
You know?
Speaker 2 (07:04):
And I think a lot of people don't even think
about those moments that like we had this really traumatic
thing happen and then we, you know, just we're driving
back from the hospital and we haven't even processed that
he's gone. And I remember we all that night, me
and my dad and my mom sat on this little
(07:25):
couch in our bonus room all together and we all
slept there all night because we it was like none
of us knew what to do, none of us knew
what to say, but we just felt like we needed
to be together. And so then the next morning I
woke up with a bajillion text of what happened. And
this is before I've even said anything. Yeah, and then
(07:48):
I go and I look at the news article and
there's this big article and it says pastor kills son
in law and self defense. So that is the first
thing that I saw, and I remember that is the
moment that I lost complete faith in Harnett County. Honestly,
(08:12):
how old were you. I was nineteen when it happened.
I just happened to be on fall break and I
had just seen Christian the night before. I remember seeing
that news article and I'm like, what, Like, how is
that self defense? That was my first thing? And then
I'm reading through the article and all I see are
(08:33):
people interviewed on the Chisenhall side saying that this is
what he had to do, he was protecting his home,
all of these things, and not a single one of
us had been spoken to.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Nobody had reached out to you guys.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
No one reached out to us. There was no interview,
and it was simply posted that way the next day,
one sided, and that was the very first bit of
information that was put out there. And from that moment
on is when we knew that we had a battle
that we were going to have to fight. And at
(09:11):
this point, we didn't even have all of the things
that we have now, right, Like, we hadn't even gotten
all of the like anything that had really happened that day.
This is literally just the next day. So the fact
that there's even a news article on it was mind blown.
And so I just knew from that moment it was
just going to be an uphill battle. Unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Yeah, I mean, at this point, your family has to
be their own lawyer, investigator, publicis, you know, pr person.
There's just so many roles that a family has to
take on, and it is so much harder when there's
misinformation put out there.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Exactly like Christian's character was being just demolished. We knew
that we had to do something. So that's actually where
the Justice for Christian page that we have now originated
was in twenty thirteen, when that news article came out,
I told my mom, I'm like, let's start a Facebook page.
And you know, looking at it now to what it's
(10:09):
become now, it's great, but it's been I remember the
first messages we were getting were just people defending Patches
in Hall.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
When tragedy happens, sometimes I think it's easier if you
don't know the person behind it, because then you can
chalk it up to the universe being terrible. You know,
when you know the person who did it, it is
just such a complicated layer. And so as this news
coverage unfolds and Patches in Hall is being painted as
(10:55):
the pillar of the community, when you know very well
that your parents are how do you even go to
the supermarket after that? How do you move about the
community without wanting to light everything on fire? I mean
I would have lost my mind.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
You know, I grew up there. I have still a
lot of like childhood friends there, and it created this
sense of I cannot trust anyone here. You know, really
struggle for a long time because I have these childhood
friends who are friends with their family, you know. And
then you are looking at news articles and you see
(11:34):
comments and you see like, oh that's so and so's
parent like and they're praising Pat for doing what he did.
It kind of became this game of like whose side
are you on? I felt like, like what type of
connection do you have to their family? And so even now,
(11:56):
you know, I when I go to visit my parents' house,
I have to pass directly past that house where Christian died,
and I have to I have seen patches and hall
out on his front porch. You know, it's just like
and my parents do too. It takes another level of
just like self control to like because you have to
(12:19):
like trust in a system that just hasn't been working
unfortunately for our family.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Let's talk about the system then, because you you know,
you're betrayed by this relationship with the Chisenhalls. You're betrayed
by local law enforcement that decides not to press charges.
You're betrayed by the local media who starts telling a
narrative that you know not to be true. What is
this next step with the civil trial? You know, how
(12:49):
did the media react to your family making this move?
Speaker 2 (12:53):
The civil trial to this day, I believe was the
most pivotal point of this case. That is where all
of the information that we have known was finally forced
to be put out, so you know, all of the
things that you share, all of the inconsistencies were finally
(13:16):
laid out for everyone to see, and that I believe
is where the opinions started to shift. That civil trial
was covered way differently by the media. They finally had,
you know, access to information that they didn't have access
to before, and it finally put the big question mark
(13:37):
in is the self defense? And so that is where
we started to begin to see not only the shift
in the media, but the shift in people's opinions as well.
People were like, wait, we didn't have this piece of
information like this definitely makes it different, you know, and
so I do believe that the coverage during that time
(14:00):
time made the difference.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Honestly, you've got the media who knew they covered it
incorrectly and then said, hold up, sorry, let's shed some
more light on this. We're gonna self correct. And they
didn't have to do that, and they did, and it's
a great example of how all systems should work. Self
correction is so important. And what's really troubling is that
(14:24):
local law enforcement did the exact opposite. All the cards
were put out on the table and it was an
opportunity for them to say, oh god, we missed this,
you know, we missed the mark, and instead they doubled down.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
M h exactly. But the fact that they've had so
much pushback I think has made them double down because
they realized that, like, now, there's been so many mistakes,
how do we come back from this? But it takes
one person to do the right thing to say we've
made a lot of mistakes here and can't let this continue.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
And so your family, you know, has kind of gotten
whiplashed from local media where it's so bad. But then
the coverage is actually like very helpful and great when
a show like ours comes along and law enforcement has
doubled down. What was the conversation that you had with
your parents when you're like, these total strangers who aren't
(15:23):
from here have reached out and want to get involved.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
I remember this very well. I remember the conversation when
my mom actually brought it to me and was like,
there is a show. It's called it couldn't happen here.
She's like, nothing is, you know, officially yet, but they
are wanting to do a story on you know, Christian,
And I immediately said, I don't think it's a good idea.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Honestly, it feels bad to reopen the wounds. And I
marvel at the families that come on our show.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Yeah, and you know, I told my mom I I
guess I on't say I was officially like no. I
was extremely cautious because of how I've seen the media
portray Christian and some of the stories that I've read,
and I just felt like, you know, I don't know
(16:16):
what is this gonna do, you know? And I'm also
I've been hesitant about anything, you know, true crime things
like that, just.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Because yeah, it's predatory and it.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Can be Yeah, and I think people really are about
sometimes this is your story and we're gonna put it
out there, and then it's like, Okay, you've put everything
out there about us and then left us to what.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
You know, you have to fight all the comments on
the message boards yourself.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Now exactly exactly. And I have been more about like,
let's advocate for Christian Let's do what matters, Let's you know,
put out petitions, let's talk to officials, let's go behind
you know. I don't think I realized the fact that
it needed, you know, this type of awareness spread to it,
(17:07):
and I think I was just really hesitant. And then
the more my mom talks to me about it and
like the angle and the approach, I was still very cautious,
but I felt a little more comfortable in the fact
that like, Okay, this is going to put Christian story
at the forefront of people's conversations. At least. I was
(17:28):
just really thankful that we did, though, because I have
seen how one like it was just I felt like,
you guys are about advocating and actually helping, you know,
and actually doing something about it. You see the inconsistencies,
and I think one quote that I've like really hung
(17:50):
onto actually is at the beginning of the documentary how
you say, it takes very little scratching, you know, of
the surface of this case to see that things are
not as they appear. And you know, I think the
momentum in Christian Story has also given people, you know,
even in Harnett County, courage to step up and speak
(18:13):
about wrongs that were done to them. Christian Story has
already been and is going to be something that I
truly believe is going to change laws. That's what we're for.
We need to change laws. Castle doctrine is one of
them that I'm really passionate about. But I also think
the biggest one has been this loophole in North Carolina
(18:36):
where the District Attorney holds so much power. We need
to get this case out of Harnett County, and we
need to get the DA to release the case and
allow it to be handed over.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
To you know, the a state agency.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Yeah, just someone, just release it, relinquish it. And because
of the power that the DA has, they're holding on
to it and they don't want to give it to
a different county. And because they hold that power, that
is our biggest hold up. Like if they would just
(19:16):
simply give the case to someone else and allow someone
else to look at it, allow someone else to, you know,
make the judgment call on what should be done. Not alone,
you know, can make the biggest difference. But again they've
doubled down because they realize that there's been a lot
of mess ups here.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
It's an uh oh situation.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Exactly, and the district attorney who has the case now
again has followed suit in the previous district attorney shoes
to not do that, to not give the case up.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
It's so frustrating because I've spoken to you know, I
go down to North Carolina for conventions in Wilmington, and
I've spoken to other lawyers that I'm friends with. I've
spoken to private investigators that I know down in the
Wilmington area, and I always talk about your brother's case,
and they're baffled. I mean, people are baffled when they
(20:10):
hear about it. And so I have to imagine it's
really frustrating for law enforcement in Harnett County. That's just
not going away. They just want it to go away.
And so the more we talk about it, the better.
I can't wait to get back down there and talk
the Attorney General.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
You know.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
I mean, it just feels like if the right people
know about it, surely someone will come in and save
the day. And so for people who have not seen
the television episode that we did, you know, what is
the takeaway that you want people to move away from
(20:49):
the episode or this podcast with What do you want
them to carry with them into their day to day?
Speaker 2 (20:54):
But I would really want people to first and foremost
gather is that when you're listening to any of these stories,
if there is anything in you that says this is
so unfair and it bothers, you do something about it.
I don't think people realize that they have the power
to change, and I think sometimes we feel like we're
(21:19):
alone in that or it's difficult to do. But like
we have the ability to, like Christian's eighth grade teacher,
you know, sending out a tweet that is why we're
here today, and you know, it just takes one person
to do the right thing. We're always going to continue advocating,
We're always going to continue spreading awareness. But like if
(21:41):
you know someone, if you want to talk to someone,
if you even if it's just a conversation with a
friend on a run and you're like, hey, I heard
about this case and it bothers me talk to him
about it. Second, I would say, put yourself in their shoes,
realizing that this could very well be your fan and
if this was your family, what would you do. And
(22:05):
then the third thing I would say is that see
in Christian's case, where you specifically can make a difference
and take action, And where that comes is that the
DA has to have pressure. The DA has to have
pressure to give up that case. You know, That's where
we have to be now, and no one can do anything, unfortunately,
(22:29):
until she gives up that case. So we are working
extremely hard to put any kind of pressure, you know,
whether we've had people calling, we've had people emailing, We've
had people showing up that I want to talk about it,
We've had people protesting in front of the courthouse. You know,
those small actions they make a difference.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Absolutely, I mean, yes, they make a huge difference. And
for me personally, I can say that after learning about
this case, after meeting your parents, you you know, it
becomes impossible to not get involved. And so I just
want so badly for every single person who hears about
(23:10):
this story to just roll up your sleeves, sign a letter,
make a phone call. You know, if it's done in
big enough numbers, we can actually create change.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
I think so many people can see themselves in a Christian.
I think the one thing that gives me peace is
that Christian lived a life that so many people don't have,
Like he lived so much in such a short amount
of time, like twenty three. He lost his life at
(23:41):
twenty three, he was killed at twenty three. If you
could just realize that this is actually someone's life, think
that makes a really big difference, and that should be
honestly anything that is about anyone's life, Like, don't detach yourself,
don't disassociate from the fact that, like someone is living this.
You know, I don't have my brother, my kids don't
(24:03):
have their uncle. You know, that's going to continue on
for the rest of our lives. And I just think
people have to realize that.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
And so for people at home, what is the best
resource for them to learn about Christian's case and get involved.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
So we have the Justice for Christian Instagram page, and
then we also have the Justice for Christian Facebook page.
On the Instagram page, there is a link in the
bio with like five or six different ways that you
can take direct action. You can email local officials from there.
It also has the phone numbers with a script, and
(24:42):
the email is also a template. You can feel free
to add whatever you would like to it. And then
there's also the calls you can make calls. We also
provide a template for that. You can also sign the
petition that is change dot org. Really though, like it's
going to come down to also election time, so like
when these you know, the DA all these people who
(25:04):
are running, like, we have to get people in the
position that are going to make a change. So if
you are someone in you know, Harnett County and you
hear Christian story and it resonates with you, think about
that when you're voting and who you're voting into power,
because again, this could very well be your family, and
(25:25):
that's important.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Well, Crystal, I adore your family. I don't think I've
been subtle about that. I think your parents are spectacular
people and I love getting to see you as a
mother and your kid. I mean, your son looks like Christian.
When you post side by side pictures, you know, it's heartbreaking,
but it's also beautiful.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Yeah, he was born on Christian's birthday, which is wild. Yes,
they look alike. They act alike, and you know, I
get to watch him with my daughter and it very
much reminds me of me and Christian.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
Yeah. Well, I hope everyone at home takes those steps
and gets involved and go tell five friends and tell
those friends to tell five friends. And in the meantime,
I hope I get to see you and your parents
in person so I can give you a big hug.
But I'm so grateful for you guys opening yourselves up
to people so they can understand the real gravity of
(26:19):
these stories. You know, you guys are heroes.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Yep, We'll always be doing that forever.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
For more information on Christian Griggs and the ways you
can help his family, be sure to visit Justice for
Christian Griggs on Facebook and Instagram. After the break, I
am going to be sitting down with Scott Pogancy to
discuss how Brandon Woodruff is doing today and possible movement
(26:46):
in his case. Welcome back, you guys. Okay, Scott Pokency
is here with me right now, and he is hands
(27:08):
down the most focused guest we have ever had. Because
the day we sat down for our television interview was
so chaotic, and you maintained your composure and really filled
us in on very important information with you know, five minutes.
We had no time to do this. The morning of
our interview, everything went sideways. Do you remember that?
Speaker 4 (27:29):
Oh yeah, we had we had the shooting range in
the background.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
Our original location to meet I think fell through, right,
and so we were left with this like a campground,
like clubhouse at a campground, gunfire the background, and there
was a children's graduation party happening that day. So they
told us, They're like, you guys have forty five minutes,
(27:56):
you know, And that stressed me out.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
And I am a seasoned interviewer. I've been doing this
since I you know, I was eighteen years old. For you,
I was so worried about you because there was so
much pressure to just get it all right and fit
it in from the jump, and you were so steadfast
and so focused. You know how much pressure did you
feel that day?
Speaker 4 (28:19):
Well, you know, it's one of those things where I've
been I mean, I've been studying, I've been involved with
the case for so long that I've just I pretty
much know it by memory. So I really didn't even
have to you know, prepare or anything like that. It
was just like, hey, show up, tell them what you know. Obviously,
we don't want to veer off too far about you know,
(28:41):
things that don't matter, so I just really tried to
stay on the topic and you know, just try to
get the information across.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Well, you're kind of the perfect example of what we
want our viewers and our listeners to do. You know,
you saw something was wrong, you jumped in, you got involved,
and I think it's really easy for a lot of
people to just turn the channel or turn the TV off,
and you didn't do that. You know, when you saw
the news story about his case, it stuck with you
(29:08):
and you decided to do something about it.
Speaker 4 (29:11):
Well, so the way that it all came about was
back in like twenty seventeen. I had known Brandon for
about six or seven years at that point, and there
had been no progress at all about getting his case
out there. And so I told him one day we
were talking, I said, you know, your case is so complicated.
(29:31):
There's so many players, there's so many different twists and turns.
What we really need to do is get your story
out there in some kind of video form that somebody
can just lay down at the end of the day,
turn it on, watch it, and just spend an hour,
maybe hour and a half or whatever, just learning about
your case, at least all the major parts of your case.
(29:53):
And he agreed. So, you know, I was an EMT
at the time. You know, I wasn't a filmmaker. I
didn't have any special skills. But I just thought to myself.
I was like, you know, I have a camera, I
have a microphone, I have a computer. I can do
this myself. You know, it may not look like Hollywood,
but it is something that I can at least put
(30:14):
together the information.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Hold on, go back you were an EMT because I
didn't know that. It's just crazy to me in this
moment how much this case has changed your life. You know,
how do you even start putting Brandon's story together?
Speaker 4 (30:29):
When it first started, when we first started talking, it
was just letters. You know, we were just pen pals,
and you know, I'd send a letter off and maybe
a month or two later, I'd get a letter back.
And it just developed from then, especially when I started
working on the film, because I would have to start
I would need to start communicating with them more. I
would say things like, Okay, tell me what I need
(30:52):
to cover next. You know, what parts of the story
am I missing here? And so it was actually kind
of a collaborative effort with him. So because of that,
we just started talking more and more. I think it's
just a way for him to escape, you know, to
keep his mind out of prison. And also the reason
(31:12):
is because he's in I think in order to keep
his mind right, he just calls me, calls his grandmother,
he calls Edie, you know, it calls all these people
all the time, just to try to stay you know,
keep his mind out of prison.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Can you tell me who Edie is?
Speaker 4 (31:28):
Yeah, Edie Bullock is. So at the time of all
of this, she owned a animal feed store and Brandon
actually went to work for her over a couple summers,
I think his junior and senior year, and so they
just you know, she became close with Brandon of course,
and Dennis and Norma as well, and then when all
(31:50):
of this happened, you know, she was one of the
first ones to step up and say, I don't believe
what you're telling me about Brandon. Prove it to me,
show me the proof. She's just one of those people
that has been along with her husband Randy, they've just
they've been by his side since the very beginning, and
they are definitely his along with me and his grandmother,
(32:14):
like the biggest supporters that he has.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
Okay, so the circle is his former boss, you someone
who'd been a total stranger before Brandon went to prison,
and his grandmother. You know, that's his main circle. So
you guys are the ones that he talks to and
that he hears from on a regular basis. I remember
when I first met Bonnie, his grandmother, she was sharing
with me his beautiful artwork. Brandon is an incredible artist,
(32:39):
and he was making all of this art in prison,
and she was telling me that it gave him a
lot of comfort. And so can you tell me, is
that what he's still up to, Like what's his day.
Speaker 4 (32:48):
To day like since we filmed right now at this
particular time, Unfortunately, because of staffing and because of budget
cuts and things like that, the craft shop isn't open anymore,
hasn't been in the craft shop for three or four
years at this point. Oh no, And they're blaming they
just blame it on budget cuts and staffing. They don't
(33:10):
have the staffing to cook the food and pass it
out and all that kind of stuff. So right now
in particular, and it's not just Brandon, obviously, it's the
whole Texas criminal justice system at this point. I mean, really,
a lot of the stuff that they're doing to these
inmates right now is just cruel and humane.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Texas is complicated and for a variety of reasons, but
just in terms of Brandon's case, I remember when we
came down there to film the episode, there was hope
on our end that so many years had gone by
and that the stigma of being gay in Texas would
be a thing of the past and a fresh perspective
(33:47):
in the state would make it a no brainer that
that tagline, if you could lie about your sexuality, you
could lie about killing your parents, It would just make
it so clear that that was bullshit, right, And then
we were filming this wave of legislation hit Texas that
was very discriminatory to the LGBTQIA plus community, and it's
(34:09):
just been really disheartening because it makes me feel like
maybe they won't care, you know, maybe they won't see
this case for what it is, and maybe sexuality is
still a punishable offense in the state of Texas.
Speaker 4 (34:22):
Texas is kind of an odd state, and it really is,
and This is why if you look at the majority
of people in Texas, I would say the tides have
changed about being gay, and most people are very tolerant.
I live in a bigger city, I live in a
suburb of Dallas, so I don't really have a lot
(34:43):
of experiences with people that are just intolerant. However, the
reason that all of these laws and all of these
initiatives have been successful is because the majority of people
in Texas of the population, live in the big cities.
They live in Dallas, they live in Fort Worth, they
(35:05):
live in San Antonio, they live in Austin. But unfortunately,
like ninety percent of the counties are rural. But then
when you realize, you know the legislature is made up
of all these conservative Republicans. They're all from counties around
the state. They're not from the popular cities like Dallas
and Fort Worth and stuff. So that's why you still
(35:28):
have these laws that are being made, is because you
have a majority of Republicans in the state legislature that
are making these laws. I don't think it's because a
majority of the people in Texas are bigoted or whatever.
I think it's because of the way that the laws
are set out in the way that the people are elected,
(35:50):
that we have this super majority in Austin of these Republicans,
and they're the ones trying to pander to their constituents
in Hunt Canty and in Lamar County and in all
these smaller counties. I think that's why Texas is kind
of an anomaly.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
You know, I don't even know how to combat that,
other than just telling the story over and over and
over again. Where is Brandon's case right now? Like, what
are the steps so right now?
Speaker 4 (36:19):
The only thing that he has available to him is
what's called an eleven oh seven writ of habeas corpus.
Basically in Layman's terms, it's usually referred to as a
writ of actual innocence. And the problem with this is
and most people that are successful in this type of writ,
(36:39):
they usually have DNA evidence, and you know, it's like
a I don't know, let's say a rape kit and
the DNA came back and it was someone else. Well,
usually you know, that type of thing will get someone
out of prison. In Brandon's case, he has basically just
a preponderance of the evidence to show that there's no
(37:01):
way that he could have done this. So when you
bring a writ of habeas corpus are rid of actual innocence.
You have to prove that you are innocent beyond any doubt,
not beyond a reasonable doubt, like you do to be convicted,
but you have to prove that you are not the
one that did this crime beyond any doubt whatsoever. So
(37:25):
right now the Innocence Project of Texas preparing and investigating
and you know, still doing the work on a writ
of actual innocence that she can present to the court.
It goes to the court that he was convicted in,
which unfortunately, right now, the judge in that court is
(37:45):
the former DA that violated his sixth Amendment.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Right, how is that not the most corrupt path possible
to just kick it right back to the person that
did it in the first place.
Speaker 4 (37:57):
Well, so judges and da in Texas are elected. So
you know, as she furthered her career, she ran for
judge and she you know, won the election. But obviously
when it goes back to her court, she's going to
be recused and there's going to be another judge that
(38:18):
comes in. So we don't know yet, you know, if
it's going to be another judge from that County, or
what we're hoping for is that we can bring in
a visiting judge from Dallas, you know well.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
And they also don't get out until the people who
put them away have retired. That seems to be the
trend over and over and over again, is that you
are waiting at least twenty years until the people who
put you there are gone. And that's a horrible pattern
for us to have in our country, you know, where
the egos of some people are worth more than the
(38:51):
truth or the freedom of innocent people. And so for
these you know judges in Texas, I think you're absolutely
right seeing visible, loud support for Brandon is vital. And
so where are the places that these people are gathering?
What's the information that we can put in front of
(39:12):
Brandon's supporters.
Speaker 4 (39:13):
Well, right now, anything that we do goes on to
as website Freebrandon dot org. Also there's a change dot
org petition that we're trying to get support for. I
don't have a direct link. You just have to go
to change dot org and search for Brandon Woodriff and
it'll come up. But you know that type of thing
is really anything that we do will be posted.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
There and so with his case. I was just in
the Texas Innocence Project office and spoke to them about
Brandon's case, and it's very much at the forefront of
everybody's mind there this habe is hearing. Are there any dates?
Is there anything set as of right now? Or is
it just kind of floating the way our justice system
(39:56):
seems to do.
Speaker 4 (39:57):
Well with the rid of habeas core. He literally has
one shot, so there's no I guess rush, you know,
like we're not rushing to get this going. They're very
much doing it methodically. They're investigating what they have to investigate.
They're looking down every avenue that they have, because when
(40:20):
they go into court, a habeas hearing is kind of
like a tree with a bunch of branches, you know.
It's like you're trying to give the judge a reason
to exonerate somebody. So you give them a bunch of branches,
You give them a bunch of reasons. Okay, Number one,
here's the phone timeline. Here's what we found about the
(40:43):
phone records. Da da da da da da da da da. Okay.
Number two, here's what we found about witnesses that have
come forward. Da da da da da da so you
have all these different issues that you bring up on appeal,
and like I said, you're hoping that the judge at
least latches onto one of them and says, Okay, I'm
not going to dismiss this because of one, two, three, four,
(41:05):
seven or eight, but number five and six, I do
believe you have a valid point. We're going to dismiss
these charges. So that's why they're being methodical about researching
every avenue that they have, every lead, they have, everything
that they are looking into. They want to have it
as thorough as they can because, like I said, you
(41:27):
don't get a second shot at it.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Yeah, So it's our job in the meantime to rally
everyone we can so that when it is go time,
there is a force behind Brandon that sends a clear message.
And Scott, honestly, I said it when we left Texas
after meeting you. If anything ever happens to me, I
(41:50):
want you on my team. You know, I hope everyone
out there has a Scot in their life who shows
up and you know, really embodies loyalty and and faith
and the hard work it takes to get over hurdles
like this. You know, it's remarkable what you've done, you
brought us into the story. We will be standing by
(42:10):
at any news from you or the Texas Innocence Project
and in the meantime encouraging people to write letters, sign
the petition, stay involved, show up when there is a hearing,
you know, because to your point, pressure is what makes
all the difference. And so thank you so much for
being a constant source of pressure in this case. We're
(42:30):
really grateful to have you.
Speaker 4 (42:32):
Well, I thank you guys for everything. I know that
your time is busy and valuable, and just the fact
that you're taking time on Brandon's case is just from
the whole support team. We thank you and we appreciate
what you're doing.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
To get involved with Brandon Woodruf's case, you can visit
Freebrandon dot org or you can go to the free
Brandon Facebook page at facebook dot com slash free Brandon.
All Right, you guys, that is it for this week's
episode of True Crime Story. It couldn't happen here. A
(43:08):
huge thank you to our guests and on behalf of
them and our crew. We really hope you continue to
stay engaged with these cases, raise your voices, get involved,
because together we can create a more just justice System.
Now you may have heard this, but we have all
new episodes of the TV shows starting April eighteenth. Be
(43:33):
sure to join us next week because we are going
to be teasing our all new season of Sundance TVs
True Crime Story It Couldn't Happen Here. We have brand
new episodes for you, and they need your help too,
so mark your calendars. We're coming to you April eighteenth.
Join us next week as we continue to roll up
(43:54):
our sleeves and dig in. Thank you so much for
joining us. If you haven't watch Sundance TV's True Crime
Story It Couldn't Happen Here, you can catch all of
our episodes streaming on AMC Plus. For more information about
this and other cases we've covered, follow at ic HH
(44:16):
stories on Instagram. True Crime Story It Couldn't Happen Here
was produced by Mischief Farm in association with Bungalow Media
and Entertainment, Authentic Management Productions, and Figdonia in partnership with
Sundance TV. Executive Producers are me Hillary Burton, Morgan, Liz Accessor,
(44:36):
Robert Friedman, Mike Powers, and Meg Mortimer. Producers are Maggie Robinson,
Katz and Libby Siegel. Our audio engineer is Brendan Dalton,
with original music by Philip Ridiotis. We want to say
a special thank you to everyone who participated, but especially
the families impacted by our cases.
Hi guys, it's Hillary here. Just a quick note. This
series does deal with a lot of tough subject matter
that may be difficult for some listeners, so please keep
this in mind when and where you choose to listen
to these episodes. Last episode, we've finished our exploration of
the Christian Griggs case and also shared some resources for
(00:23):
those of you who would like to support the Griggs
family in their search for justice. On this episode, I'm
going to be chatting with two people directly connected to
our cases this season. First, I'll be speaking with Christian's
sister Crystal about her experience living through her brother's death,
as well as more ways you can support the Griggs
(00:44):
family as they put pressure on Harnett County and the
state of North Carolina. Then, I'm going to be speaking
with Scott Pogancy from the Brandon WOODRUF case, who shares
not only updates about where the case currently stands, but
how Brandon is due. Today I'm Hillary Burton Morgan, and
(01:04):
this is true crime story It Couldn't Happen Here. Hi,
you guys, welcome to another episode of It Couldn't Happen
(01:27):
Here the podcast. I have a guest today that I personally,
am really excited to talk to because we've never been
able to speak face to face before. I'm with Crystal,
Christian Greg's sister, and we only ever spoke on the
phone when I was at your parents' house. And so
for our audience, if you could tell us a little
(01:48):
bit about your background and where you're from, just so
you know they have a sense of who you are
outside of this story.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yeah, it's great to be able to finally have someone here.
My perspective, from a sister's point of view, I feel
like that doesn't happen often, so kind of starting from
growing up wise, I was always known as Christian Griggs
little sister. I don't think I ever developed my own
(02:21):
personal like self until he was like out of school, honestly. So,
I even remember growing up in middle school, especially because
he was popular and soccer star and all of these things,
and it was like, oh, yeah, you're Christian Gregg's little sister.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Every teacher, every kid.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
I had all of the same teachers, his friends, their
siblings were my friends. So it very much was that
like small town feel, you know, where it's like everyone
knows everyone, Everyone knew Christian, everyone loved Christian and so
it always felt like I had just these really big
shoes to fill, and I in a way enjoyed that
(03:01):
because it was kind of easy. Like I felt like,
as a little sister, it could be better. He was great,
you know, he was smart, and so all of the
people expected that from me to I just think growing up,
we had this fun upbringing that you didn't have to
like really stress because we were protected, we were loved,
(03:22):
we were cared for.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Yeah, I mean your parents. I fell for your parents.
The second I walked into your parents' home. It was
like go into a you know when you go to
your friend's parents' house, and like you're able to just
walk in and go into the refrigerator and hang out
and sit on the couch. Your parents are so warm.
Even after this whole experience, your mother has applauded everything
I've done in the year and a half since I've
(03:45):
met them. You know, like when your parents pick someone,
it feels like it's for life, and it feels so lovely.
And the thing that struck me was that it was
so clear what pillars of the community your family was.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Yes, and you know, my dad A lot of people
don't understand too, is that he's also military, like active duty,
so like his ability to you know, show up for
us but also do those things, Like I don't think
sometimes people understand like the magnitude of that.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
To be able to emotionally carry both that really dark
stuff and really light stuff for your children is that's
a huge feat exactly.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Yes, And so you know, now that I'm a parent
myself too, I see that the ability to do that
is really special and not a lot of people have
that capacity. But yes, growing up it just brings like
the biggest smile to my face all the time because
we had literally the best upbringing. It's what truly made
(04:49):
me so excited to have my own family one day.
And even still to this day, my friends call my
mom Dolly girl because she has been there for my
friends and their kids. But like I do think that
pivotal moment in my life was when Christian died. I
had almost like this naive trust in people to just
(05:13):
inherently do the right thing. So you grow up thinking
that's what the world is like, and then this happened
with Christian and I realized that, like, wait, that's not
how the world works, that's not Unfortunately, you know, I
thought Patchies and Hall would go to jail, and I
just remember that moment when I found out he didn't,
(05:36):
and my entire world changed in that moment.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
And you have now watched the story of your family
play out in a couple different mediums. You know, obviously
we're in the podcast right now. We did the TV episode,
but if you could take me back to the first
coverage of what happened to Christian and what that felt
like to have your family on TV and how they
(06:02):
were depicted.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
So when it first happened, it's just so hard to
see someone else write something about your family who was
not there, right, So I think that's always first the
most difficult part because even now I'm sharing with you,
like all of the things that Christian was and then
our family was and still is, and then they write
(06:24):
a news article that doesn't match those things whatsoever. So
I remember exactly when it first happened. We had just
left the hospital, Christian had passed away, We already said
goodbye all of that, and then we drove back home,
which is probably the quietest moment of my eyes still
(06:46):
can like feel and hear, just because I remember we
were driving down the road and like you could hear
just like every little bump under the tire, like every
little like piece of groul or anything that you drove over,
because it's like what do you say to each other?
Speaker 3 (07:04):
You know?
Speaker 2 (07:04):
And I think a lot of people don't even think
about those moments that like we had this really traumatic
thing happen and then we, you know, just we're driving
back from the hospital and we haven't even processed that
he's gone. And I remember we all that night, me
and my dad and my mom sat on this little
(07:25):
couch in our bonus room all together and we all
slept there all night because we it was like none
of us knew what to do, none of us knew
what to say, but we just felt like we needed
to be together. And so then the next morning I
woke up with a bajillion text of what happened. And
this is before I've even said anything. Yeah, and then
(07:48):
I go and I look at the news article and
there's this big article and it says pastor kills son
in law and self defense. So that is the first
thing that I saw, and I remember that is the
moment that I lost complete faith in Harnett County. Honestly,
(08:12):
how old were you. I was nineteen when it happened.
I just happened to be on fall break and I
had just seen Christian the night before. I remember seeing
that news article and I'm like, what, Like, how is
that self defense? That was my first thing? And then
I'm reading through the article and all I see are
(08:33):
people interviewed on the Chisenhall side saying that this is
what he had to do, he was protecting his home,
all of these things, and not a single one of
us had been spoken to.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Nobody had reached out to you guys.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
No one reached out to us. There was no interview,
and it was simply posted that way the next day,
one sided, and that was the very first bit of
information that was put out there. And from that moment
on is when we knew that we had a battle
that we were going to have to fight. And at
(09:11):
this point, we didn't even have all of the things
that we have now, right, Like, we hadn't even gotten
all of the like anything that had really happened that day.
This is literally just the next day. So the fact
that there's even a news article on it was mind blown.
And so I just knew from that moment it was
just going to be an uphill battle. Unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Yeah, I mean, at this point, your family has to
be their own lawyer, investigator, publicis, you know, pr person.
There's just so many roles that a family has to
take on, and it is so much harder when there's
misinformation put out there.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Exactly like Christian's character was being just demolished. We knew
that we had to do something. So that's actually where
the Justice for Christian page that we have now originated
was in twenty thirteen, when that news article came out,
I told my mom, I'm like, let's start a Facebook page.
And you know, looking at it now to what it's
(10:09):
become now, it's great, but it's been I remember the
first messages we were getting were just people defending Patches
in Hall.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
When tragedy happens, sometimes I think it's easier if you
don't know the person behind it, because then you can
chalk it up to the universe being terrible. You know,
when you know the person who did it, it is
just such a complicated layer. And so as this news
coverage unfolds and Patches in Hall is being painted as
(10:55):
the pillar of the community, when you know very well
that your parents are how do you even go to
the supermarket after that? How do you move about the
community without wanting to light everything on fire? I mean
I would have lost my mind.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
You know, I grew up there. I have still a
lot of like childhood friends there, and it created this
sense of I cannot trust anyone here. You know, really
struggle for a long time because I have these childhood
friends who are friends with their family, you know. And
then you are looking at news articles and you see
(11:34):
comments and you see like, oh that's so and so's
parent like and they're praising Pat for doing what he did.
It kind of became this game of like whose side
are you on? I felt like, like what type of
connection do you have to their family? And so even now,
(11:56):
you know, I when I go to visit my parents' house,
I have to pass directly past that house where Christian died,
and I have to I have seen patches and hall
out on his front porch. You know, it's just like
and my parents do too. It takes another level of
just like self control to like because you have to
(12:19):
like trust in a system that just hasn't been working
unfortunately for our family.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Let's talk about the system then, because you you know,
you're betrayed by this relationship with the Chisenhalls. You're betrayed
by local law enforcement that decides not to press charges.
You're betrayed by the local media who starts telling a
narrative that you know not to be true. What is
this next step with the civil trial? You know, how
(12:49):
did the media react to your family making this move?
Speaker 2 (12:53):
The civil trial to this day, I believe was the
most pivotal point of this case. That is where all
of the information that we have known was finally forced
to be put out, so you know, all of the
things that you share, all of the inconsistencies were finally
(13:16):
laid out for everyone to see, and that I believe
is where the opinions started to shift. That civil trial
was covered way differently by the media. They finally had,
you know, access to information that they didn't have access
to before, and it finally put the big question mark
(13:37):
in is the self defense? And so that is where
we started to begin to see not only the shift
in the media, but the shift in people's opinions as well.
People were like, wait, we didn't have this piece of
information like this definitely makes it different, you know, and
so I do believe that the coverage during that time
(14:00):
time made the difference.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Honestly, you've got the media who knew they covered it
incorrectly and then said, hold up, sorry, let's shed some
more light on this. We're gonna self correct. And they
didn't have to do that, and they did, and it's
a great example of how all systems should work. Self
correction is so important. And what's really troubling is that
(14:24):
local law enforcement did the exact opposite. All the cards
were put out on the table and it was an
opportunity for them to say, oh god, we missed this,
you know, we missed the mark, and instead they doubled down.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
M h exactly. But the fact that they've had so
much pushback I think has made them double down because
they realized that, like, now, there's been so many mistakes,
how do we come back from this? But it takes
one person to do the right thing to say we've
made a lot of mistakes here and can't let this continue.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
And so your family, you know, has kind of gotten
whiplashed from local media where it's so bad. But then
the coverage is actually like very helpful and great when
a show like ours comes along and law enforcement has
doubled down. What was the conversation that you had with
your parents when you're like, these total strangers who aren't
(15:23):
from here have reached out and want to get involved.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
I remember this very well. I remember the conversation when
my mom actually brought it to me and was like,
there is a show. It's called it couldn't happen here.
She's like, nothing is, you know, officially yet, but they
are wanting to do a story on you know, Christian,
And I immediately said, I don't think it's a good idea.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Honestly, it feels bad to reopen the wounds. And I
marvel at the families that come on our show.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Yeah, and you know, I told my mom I I
guess I on't say I was officially like no. I
was extremely cautious because of how I've seen the media
portray Christian and some of the stories that I've read,
and I just felt like, you know, I don't know
(16:16):
what is this gonna do, you know? And I'm also
I've been hesitant about anything, you know, true crime things
like that, just.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Because yeah, it's predatory and it.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Can be Yeah, and I think people really are about
sometimes this is your story and we're gonna put it
out there, and then it's like, Okay, you've put everything
out there about us and then left us to what.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
You know, you have to fight all the comments on
the message boards yourself.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Now exactly exactly. And I have been more about like,
let's advocate for Christian Let's do what matters, Let's you know,
put out petitions, let's talk to officials, let's go behind
you know. I don't think I realized the fact that
it needed, you know, this type of awareness spread to it,
(17:07):
and I think I was just really hesitant. And then
the more my mom talks to me about it and
like the angle and the approach, I was still very cautious,
but I felt a little more comfortable in the fact
that like, Okay, this is going to put Christian story
at the forefront of people's conversations. At least. I was
(17:28):
just really thankful that we did, though, because I have
seen how one like it was just I felt like,
you guys are about advocating and actually helping, you know,
and actually doing something about it. You see the inconsistencies,
and I think one quote that I've like really hung
(17:50):
onto actually is at the beginning of the documentary how
you say, it takes very little scratching, you know, of
the surface of this case to see that things are
not as they appear. And you know, I think the
momentum in Christian Story has also given people, you know,
even in Harnett County, courage to step up and speak
(18:13):
about wrongs that were done to them. Christian Story has
already been and is going to be something that I
truly believe is going to change laws. That's what we're for.
We need to change laws. Castle doctrine is one of
them that I'm really passionate about. But I also think
the biggest one has been this loophole in North Carolina
(18:36):
where the District Attorney holds so much power. We need
to get this case out of Harnett County, and we
need to get the DA to release the case and
allow it to be handed over.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
To you know, the a state agency.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Yeah, just someone, just release it, relinquish it. And because
of the power that the DA has, they're holding on
to it and they don't want to give it to
a different county. And because they hold that power, that
is our biggest hold up. Like if they would just
(19:16):
simply give the case to someone else and allow someone
else to look at it, allow someone else to, you know,
make the judgment call on what should be done. Not alone,
you know, can make the biggest difference. But again they've
doubled down because they realize that there's been a lot
of mess ups here.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
It's an uh oh situation.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Exactly, and the district attorney who has the case now
again has followed suit in the previous district attorney shoes
to not do that, to not give the case up.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
It's so frustrating because I've spoken to you know, I
go down to North Carolina for conventions in Wilmington, and
I've spoken to other lawyers that I'm friends with. I've
spoken to private investigators that I know down in the
Wilmington area, and I always talk about your brother's case,
and they're baffled. I mean, people are baffled when they
(20:10):
hear about it. And so I have to imagine it's
really frustrating for law enforcement in Harnett County. That's just
not going away. They just want it to go away.
And so the more we talk about it, the better.
I can't wait to get back down there and talk
the Attorney General.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
You know.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
I mean, it just feels like if the right people
know about it, surely someone will come in and save
the day. And so for people who have not seen
the television episode that we did, you know, what is
the takeaway that you want people to move away from
(20:49):
the episode or this podcast with What do you want
them to carry with them into their day to day?
Speaker 2 (20:54):
But I would really want people to first and foremost
gather is that when you're listening to any of these stories,
if there is anything in you that says this is
so unfair and it bothers, you do something about it.
I don't think people realize that they have the power
to change, and I think sometimes we feel like we're
(21:19):
alone in that or it's difficult to do. But like
we have the ability to, like Christian's eighth grade teacher,
you know, sending out a tweet that is why we're
here today, and you know, it just takes one person
to do the right thing. We're always going to continue advocating,
We're always going to continue spreading awareness. But like if
(21:41):
you know someone, if you want to talk to someone,
if you even if it's just a conversation with a
friend on a run and you're like, hey, I heard
about this case and it bothers me talk to him
about it. Second, I would say, put yourself in their shoes,
realizing that this could very well be your fan and
if this was your family, what would you do. And
(22:05):
then the third thing I would say is that see
in Christian's case, where you specifically can make a difference
and take action, And where that comes is that the
DA has to have pressure. The DA has to have
pressure to give up that case. You know, That's where
we have to be now, and no one can do anything, unfortunately,
(22:29):
until she gives up that case. So we are working
extremely hard to put any kind of pressure, you know,
whether we've had people calling, we've had people emailing, We've
had people showing up that I want to talk about it,
We've had people protesting in front of the courthouse. You know,
those small actions they make a difference.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Absolutely, I mean, yes, they make a huge difference. And
for me personally, I can say that after learning about
this case, after meeting your parents, you you know, it
becomes impossible to not get involved. And so I just
want so badly for every single person who hears about
(23:10):
this story to just roll up your sleeves, sign a letter,
make a phone call. You know, if it's done in
big enough numbers, we can actually create change.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
I think so many people can see themselves in a Christian.
I think the one thing that gives me peace is
that Christian lived a life that so many people don't have,
Like he lived so much in such a short amount
of time, like twenty three. He lost his life at
(23:41):
twenty three, he was killed at twenty three. If you
could just realize that this is actually someone's life, think
that makes a really big difference, and that should be
honestly anything that is about anyone's life, Like, don't detach yourself,
don't disassociate from the fact that, like someone is living this.
You know, I don't have my brother, my kids don't
(24:03):
have their uncle. You know, that's going to continue on
for the rest of our lives. And I just think
people have to realize that.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
And so for people at home, what is the best
resource for them to learn about Christian's case and get involved.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
So we have the Justice for Christian Instagram page, and
then we also have the Justice for Christian Facebook page.
On the Instagram page, there is a link in the
bio with like five or six different ways that you
can take direct action. You can email local officials from there.
It also has the phone numbers with a script, and
(24:42):
the email is also a template. You can feel free
to add whatever you would like to it. And then
there's also the calls you can make calls. We also
provide a template for that. You can also sign the
petition that is change dot org. Really though, like it's
going to come down to also election time, so like
when these you know, the DA all these people who
(25:04):
are running, like, we have to get people in the
position that are going to make a change. So if
you are someone in you know, Harnett County and you
hear Christian story and it resonates with you, think about
that when you're voting and who you're voting into power,
because again, this could very well be your family, and
(25:25):
that's important.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Well, Crystal, I adore your family. I don't think I've
been subtle about that. I think your parents are spectacular
people and I love getting to see you as a
mother and your kid. I mean, your son looks like Christian.
When you post side by side pictures, you know, it's heartbreaking,
but it's also beautiful.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Yeah, he was born on Christian's birthday, which is wild. Yes,
they look alike. They act alike, and you know, I
get to watch him with my daughter and it very
much reminds me of me and Christian.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
Yeah. Well, I hope everyone at home takes those steps
and gets involved and go tell five friends and tell
those friends to tell five friends. And in the meantime,
I hope I get to see you and your parents
in person so I can give you a big hug.
But I'm so grateful for you guys opening yourselves up
to people so they can understand the real gravity of
(26:19):
these stories. You know, you guys are heroes.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Yep, We'll always be doing that forever.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
For more information on Christian Griggs and the ways you
can help his family, be sure to visit Justice for
Christian Griggs on Facebook and Instagram. After the break, I
am going to be sitting down with Scott Pogancy to
discuss how Brandon Woodruff is doing today and possible movement
(26:46):
in his case. Welcome back, you guys. Okay, Scott Pokency
is here with me right now, and he is hands
(27:08):
down the most focused guest we have ever had. Because
the day we sat down for our television interview was
so chaotic, and you maintained your composure and really filled
us in on very important information with you know, five minutes.
We had no time to do this. The morning of
our interview, everything went sideways. Do you remember that?
Speaker 4 (27:29):
Oh yeah, we had we had the shooting range in
the background.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
Our original location to meet I think fell through, right,
and so we were left with this like a campground,
like clubhouse at a campground, gunfire the background, and there
was a children's graduation party happening that day. So they
told us, They're like, you guys have forty five minutes,
(27:56):
you know, And that stressed me out.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
And I am a seasoned interviewer. I've been doing this
since I you know, I was eighteen years old. For you,
I was so worried about you because there was so
much pressure to just get it all right and fit
it in from the jump, and you were so steadfast
and so focused. You know how much pressure did you
feel that day?
Speaker 4 (28:19):
Well, you know, it's one of those things where I've
been I mean, I've been studying, I've been involved with
the case for so long that I've just I pretty
much know it by memory. So I really didn't even
have to you know, prepare or anything like that. It
was just like, hey, show up, tell them what you know. Obviously,
we don't want to veer off too far about you know,
(28:41):
things that don't matter, so I just really tried to
stay on the topic and you know, just try to
get the information across.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Well, you're kind of the perfect example of what we
want our viewers and our listeners to do. You know,
you saw something was wrong, you jumped in, you got involved,
and I think it's really easy for a lot of
people to just turn the channel or turn the TV off,
and you didn't do that. You know, when you saw
the news story about his case, it stuck with you
(29:08):
and you decided to do something about it.
Speaker 4 (29:11):
Well, so the way that it all came about was
back in like twenty seventeen. I had known Brandon for
about six or seven years at that point, and there
had been no progress at all about getting his case
out there. And so I told him one day we
were talking, I said, you know, your case is so complicated.
(29:31):
There's so many players, there's so many different twists and turns.
What we really need to do is get your story
out there in some kind of video form that somebody
can just lay down at the end of the day,
turn it on, watch it, and just spend an hour,
maybe hour and a half or whatever, just learning about
your case, at least all the major parts of your case.
(29:53):
And he agreed. So, you know, I was an EMT
at the time. You know, I wasn't a filmmaker. I
didn't have any special skills. But I just thought to myself.
I was like, you know, I have a camera, I
have a microphone, I have a computer. I can do
this myself. You know, it may not look like Hollywood,
but it is something that I can at least put
(30:14):
together the information.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Hold on, go back you were an EMT because I
didn't know that. It's just crazy to me in this
moment how much this case has changed your life. You know,
how do you even start putting Brandon's story together?
Speaker 4 (30:29):
When it first started, when we first started talking, it
was just letters. You know, we were just pen pals,
and you know, I'd send a letter off and maybe
a month or two later, I'd get a letter back.
And it just developed from then, especially when I started
working on the film, because I would have to start
I would need to start communicating with them more. I
would say things like, Okay, tell me what I need
(30:52):
to cover next. You know, what parts of the story
am I missing here? And so it was actually kind
of a collaborative effort with him. So because of that,
we just started talking more and more. I think it's
just a way for him to escape, you know, to
keep his mind out of prison. And also the reason
(31:12):
is because he's in I think in order to keep
his mind right, he just calls me, calls his grandmother,
he calls Edie, you know, it calls all these people
all the time, just to try to stay you know,
keep his mind out of prison.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Can you tell me who Edie is?
Speaker 4 (31:28):
Yeah, Edie Bullock is. So at the time of all
of this, she owned a animal feed store and Brandon
actually went to work for her over a couple summers,
I think his junior and senior year, and so they
just you know, she became close with Brandon of course,
and Dennis and Norma as well, and then when all
(31:50):
of this happened, you know, she was one of the
first ones to step up and say, I don't believe
what you're telling me about Brandon. Prove it to me,
show me the proof. She's just one of those people
that has been along with her husband Randy, they've just
they've been by his side since the very beginning, and
they are definitely his along with me and his grandmother,
(32:14):
like the biggest supporters that he has.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
Okay, so the circle is his former boss, you someone
who'd been a total stranger before Brandon went to prison,
and his grandmother. You know, that's his main circle. So
you guys are the ones that he talks to and
that he hears from on a regular basis. I remember
when I first met Bonnie, his grandmother, she was sharing
with me his beautiful artwork. Brandon is an incredible artist,
(32:39):
and he was making all of this art in prison,
and she was telling me that it gave him a
lot of comfort. And so can you tell me, is
that what he's still up to, Like what's his day.
Speaker 4 (32:48):
To day like since we filmed right now at this
particular time, Unfortunately, because of staffing and because of budget
cuts and things like that, the craft shop isn't open anymore,
hasn't been in the craft shop for three or four
years at this point. Oh no, And they're blaming they
just blame it on budget cuts and staffing. They don't
(33:10):
have the staffing to cook the food and pass it
out and all that kind of stuff. So right now
in particular, and it's not just Brandon, obviously, it's the
whole Texas criminal justice system at this point. I mean, really,
a lot of the stuff that they're doing to these
inmates right now is just cruel and humane.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Texas is complicated and for a variety of reasons, but
just in terms of Brandon's case, I remember when we
came down there to film the episode, there was hope
on our end that so many years had gone by
and that the stigma of being gay in Texas would
be a thing of the past and a fresh perspective
(33:47):
in the state would make it a no brainer that
that tagline, if you could lie about your sexuality, you
could lie about killing your parents, It would just make
it so clear that that was bullshit, right, And then
we were filming this wave of legislation hit Texas that
was very discriminatory to the LGBTQIA plus community, and it's
(34:09):
just been really disheartening because it makes me feel like
maybe they won't care, you know, maybe they won't see
this case for what it is, and maybe sexuality is
still a punishable offense in the state of Texas.
Speaker 4 (34:22):
Texas is kind of an odd state, and it really is,
and This is why if you look at the majority
of people in Texas, I would say the tides have
changed about being gay, and most people are very tolerant.
I live in a bigger city, I live in a
suburb of Dallas, so I don't really have a lot
(34:43):
of experiences with people that are just intolerant. However, the
reason that all of these laws and all of these
initiatives have been successful is because the majority of people
in Texas of the population, live in the big cities.
They live in Dallas, they live in Fort Worth, they
(35:05):
live in San Antonio, they live in Austin. But unfortunately,
like ninety percent of the counties are rural. But then
when you realize, you know the legislature is made up
of all these conservative Republicans. They're all from counties around
the state. They're not from the popular cities like Dallas
and Fort Worth and stuff. So that's why you still
(35:28):
have these laws that are being made, is because you
have a majority of Republicans in the state legislature that
are making these laws. I don't think it's because a
majority of the people in Texas are bigoted or whatever.
I think it's because of the way that the laws
are set out in the way that the people are elected,
(35:50):
that we have this super majority in Austin of these Republicans,
and they're the ones trying to pander to their constituents
in Hunt Canty and in Lamar County and in all
these smaller counties. I think that's why Texas is kind
of an anomaly.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
You know, I don't even know how to combat that,
other than just telling the story over and over and
over again. Where is Brandon's case right now? Like, what
are the steps so right now?
Speaker 4 (36:19):
The only thing that he has available to him is
what's called an eleven oh seven writ of habeas corpus.
Basically in Layman's terms, it's usually referred to as a
writ of actual innocence. And the problem with this is
and most people that are successful in this type of writ,
(36:39):
they usually have DNA evidence, and you know, it's like
a I don't know, let's say a rape kit and
the DNA came back and it was someone else. Well,
usually you know, that type of thing will get someone
out of prison. In Brandon's case, he has basically just
a preponderance of the evidence to show that there's no
(37:01):
way that he could have done this. So when you
bring a writ of habeas corpus are rid of actual innocence.
You have to prove that you are innocent beyond any doubt,
not beyond a reasonable doubt, like you do to be convicted,
but you have to prove that you are not the
one that did this crime beyond any doubt whatsoever. So
(37:25):
right now the Innocence Project of Texas preparing and investigating
and you know, still doing the work on a writ
of actual innocence that she can present to the court.
It goes to the court that he was convicted in,
which unfortunately, right now, the judge in that court is
(37:45):
the former DA that violated his sixth Amendment.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Right, how is that not the most corrupt path possible
to just kick it right back to the person that
did it in the first place.
Speaker 4 (37:57):
Well, so judges and da in Texas are elected. So
you know, as she furthered her career, she ran for
judge and she you know, won the election. But obviously
when it goes back to her court, she's going to
be recused and there's going to be another judge that
(38:18):
comes in. So we don't know yet, you know, if
it's going to be another judge from that County, or
what we're hoping for is that we can bring in
a visiting judge from Dallas, you know well.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
And they also don't get out until the people who
put them away have retired. That seems to be the
trend over and over and over again, is that you
are waiting at least twenty years until the people who
put you there are gone. And that's a horrible pattern
for us to have in our country, you know, where
the egos of some people are worth more than the
(38:51):
truth or the freedom of innocent people. And so for
these you know judges in Texas, I think you're absolutely
right seeing visible, loud support for Brandon is vital. And
so where are the places that these people are gathering?
What's the information that we can put in front of
(39:12):
Brandon's supporters.
Speaker 4 (39:13):
Well, right now, anything that we do goes on to
as website Freebrandon dot org. Also there's a change dot
org petition that we're trying to get support for. I
don't have a direct link. You just have to go
to change dot org and search for Brandon Woodriff and
it'll come up. But you know that type of thing
is really anything that we do will be posted.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
There and so with his case. I was just in
the Texas Innocence Project office and spoke to them about
Brandon's case, and it's very much at the forefront of
everybody's mind there this habe is hearing. Are there any dates?
Is there anything set as of right now? Or is
it just kind of floating the way our justice system
(39:56):
seems to do.
Speaker 4 (39:57):
Well with the rid of habeas core. He literally has
one shot, so there's no I guess rush, you know,
like we're not rushing to get this going. They're very
much doing it methodically. They're investigating what they have to investigate.
They're looking down every avenue that they have, because when
(40:20):
they go into court, a habeas hearing is kind of
like a tree with a bunch of branches, you know.
It's like you're trying to give the judge a reason
to exonerate somebody. So you give them a bunch of branches,
You give them a bunch of reasons. Okay, Number one,
here's the phone timeline. Here's what we found about the
(40:43):
phone records. Da da da da da da da da da. Okay.
Number two, here's what we found about witnesses that have
come forward. Da da da da da da so you
have all these different issues that you bring up on appeal,
and like I said, you're hoping that the judge at
least latches onto one of them and says, Okay, I'm
not going to dismiss this because of one, two, three, four,
(41:05):
seven or eight, but number five and six, I do
believe you have a valid point. We're going to dismiss
these charges. So that's why they're being methodical about researching
every avenue that they have, every lead, they have, everything
that they are looking into. They want to have it
as thorough as they can because, like I said, you
(41:27):
don't get a second shot at it.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Yeah, So it's our job in the meantime to rally
everyone we can so that when it is go time,
there is a force behind Brandon that sends a clear message.
And Scott, honestly, I said it when we left Texas
after meeting you. If anything ever happens to me, I
(41:50):
want you on my team. You know, I hope everyone
out there has a Scot in their life who shows
up and you know, really embodies loyalty and and faith
and the hard work it takes to get over hurdles
like this. You know, it's remarkable what you've done, you
brought us into the story. We will be standing by
(42:10):
at any news from you or the Texas Innocence Project
and in the meantime encouraging people to write letters, sign
the petition, stay involved, show up when there is a hearing,
you know, because to your point, pressure is what makes
all the difference. And so thank you so much for
being a constant source of pressure in this case. We're
(42:30):
really grateful to have you.
Speaker 4 (42:32):
Well, I thank you guys for everything. I know that
your time is busy and valuable, and just the fact
that you're taking time on Brandon's case is just from
the whole support team. We thank you and we appreciate
what you're doing.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
To get involved with Brandon Woodruf's case, you can visit
Freebrandon dot org or you can go to the free
Brandon Facebook page at facebook dot com slash free Brandon.
All Right, you guys, that is it for this week's
episode of True Crime Story. It couldn't happen here. A
(43:08):
huge thank you to our guests and on behalf of
them and our crew. We really hope you continue to
stay engaged with these cases, raise your voices, get involved,
because together we can create a more just justice System.
Now you may have heard this, but we have all
new episodes of the TV shows starting April eighteenth. Be
(43:33):
sure to join us next week because we are going
to be teasing our all new season of Sundance TVs
True Crime Story It Couldn't Happen Here. We have brand
new episodes for you, and they need your help too,
so mark your calendars. We're coming to you April eighteenth.
Join us next week as we continue to roll up
(43:54):
our sleeves and dig in. Thank you so much for
joining us. If you haven't watch Sundance TV's True Crime
Story It Couldn't Happen Here, you can catch all of
our episodes streaming on AMC Plus. For more information about
this and other cases we've covered, follow at ic HH
(44:16):
stories on Instagram. True Crime Story It Couldn't Happen Here
was produced by Mischief Farm in association with Bungalow Media
and Entertainment, Authentic Management Productions, and Figdonia in partnership with
Sundance TV. Executive Producers are me Hillary Burton, Morgan, Liz Accessor,
(44:36):
Robert Friedman, Mike Powers, and Meg Mortimer. Producers are Maggie Robinson,
Katz and Libby Siegel. Our audio engineer is Brendan Dalton,
with original music by Philip Ridiotis. We want to say
a special thank you to everyone who participated, but especially
the families impacted by our cases.
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