April 9, 2024 • 38 mins
We’re wrapping up this season of the podcast with exciting updates on some of the other cases we have covered on our TV series. Hilarie and Dan will also give a sneak peek on the next season of the TV show which brought us to brand new states like Maine and North Dakota covering a wide variety of cases - each as head-scratching as the next.
For more information about this and other cases we've covered, follow @ICHHstories on Instagram.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi guys, it's Hillary here. Just a quick note. This
series does deal with a lot of tough subject matter
that may be difficult for some listeners, so please keep
this in mind when and where you choose to listen
to these episodes. Before we get into this next episode,
I want to say a sincere thank you to all
(00:22):
of you who joined us this season as we dug
deep into the cases of Brandon Woodruff and Christian Griggs.
I hope that you will continue to follow their stories
and raise your voice to support their efforts of freedom
and justice. I say this all the time, but I
truly believe that together we can have a more just
(00:43):
judicial system. Now on this episode, Dan and I are
going to be sharing some very exciting updates on some
of our past cases, but we're also going to be
laying out the new season of the TV show for
you guys. So we got to go to some new
states this year. We hit North Dakota and May and
we covered a really wide variety of cases, each one
(01:04):
as heartbreaking and head scratching as the next. So roll
up your sleeves, we're ready to get to work. I'm
Hillary Burton Morgan, and this is true crime Story it
couldn't happen here. You guys, welcome to our finale episode
(01:26):
of True Crime Story. It couldn't happen here. This has
been a wild time for Dan Flaherty and I because
in the midst of taving this podcast, we've also been
out on the road filming the new season of the
Sun Dance television series. Dan, you're in post production? Hell
right now? Are you so exhausted?
Speaker 2 (01:45):
We are very busy. We filmed in six New towns
this year, and we've been editing away trying to get
the episodes ready for broadcast.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Yeah, we're excited for our show to finally launch. What
is our premiere date, Dan.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Our first episode of this season will premiere April eighteenth.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
We're really excited to tease you guys with a little
bit of information about what you can expect this season
on our show. But before we get into that, I
wanted to take some time and give you guys some updates.
Dan and I and our team have gotten a flurry
of updates about the cases that we have covered thus
(02:23):
far on the show, and I don't know. I think
when we first launch our episodes, I always expect there
to be an immediate response and what we've noticed is
that there's like a two year delay, that justice moves
much slower than the rest of the world. And all
of a sudden, we just got this flurry of phone
(02:44):
calls about things happening in our cases, including the cases
that we've done our deep dives on here on the podcast.
So what do we want to tell them about Brandon
Woodriff's case.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Basically, we spoke with the Innocence Project of Texas, the
attorneys there who are working with Brandon, and they got
a couple of calls and some new leads and they're
following up and hopefully could result in some new evidence
in the case.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Well, I think what's really important is that we always
encourage people to get involved, and so specifically in Brandon's case,
we have an opportunity for people to get involved coming up.
There is some pretty expensive forensic testing, physical evidence testing
that they're getting ready to work on, and they're going
to be setting up a go fund me specifically for that,
(03:31):
and so for people who are just as horrified as
we are at what went down in Texas, this is
a great opportunity to contribute to that GoFundMe, to share
it with your friends. The Innocence Project is setting it
up right now, and so hopefully we will have that
very soon to promote across all of our social media platforms.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
I mean, the work that the legal team is doing
in investigating on Brandon's behalf, I mean, it is expensive
and they don't have an unlimited amount of funds, and
so for people to be able to chip in and
help out really just to uncover evidence, and that's something
that that's real and substantive.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Yeah, so all right, fingers crossed. We've also had a
lot of updates in the Christian Greggs case, and maybe
not so much momentum in the justice of it all,
but in the awareness of this case. I've always maintained
really strong ties in North Carolina. I'm still a homeowner
in North Carolina. I bought a house there Season one
(04:27):
of One Tree Hill and I've never left. And so
for me, the contacts that I had in North Carolina,
you and I were able to tap into a few
of those. And for the Griggs family, nothing's going to
bring Christian back, but having people know his story and
(04:47):
holding authorities feet to the fire who were involved in
this is very important to them.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Yeah, I think exposing what's going on in Harnett County
and just being able to take a look not just
Christian's story, but beyond that as well. And I think
the Griggs family is very like you said, that's important
to them to sort of call out what they see
is wrong and try to correct things that can be corrected.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
And then we have all these cases Dan that we
have not covered on the podcast, But for anybody who
has watched the show, you guys at home are so
wonderful about really showing up and getting involved and doing
the homework. So we have a case in Ohio that
you have done so much extra work on. Do you
want to tell everybody what our updates there are?
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Sure? This is Tyrone Noling who was sentenced to death
for a murder that he didn't commit. And this was
in last season episode in at Water, Ohio, and he
is still sitting on death row and he is actively
fighting to get his name cleared.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
And what put him on death row. For the people
who haven't seen our episode.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Well, Tyrone's story was that he was living at the
time with a few of his friends sort of unsuit revised.
They were late teens. One was as young as fourteen.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
It reminded me of the Outsiders.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
You know.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
They were these young guys and they'd gotten into some
trouble in the past, and in a neighboring town from
where they were staying, there was a home invasion where
a older couple was murdered, and so the police looked
at these kids as possible suspects, but none of the
evidence of the scene connected them to these murders, and
they denied having any involvement or being anywhere near there,
(06:27):
and so the police basically dropped them as suspects and
the case essentially went cold until the local prosecutor sent
his investigator in to dig into this case, and he
focused again on these four young men. After a series
of long interviews and offering them deals, a few of
them basically pointed to the finger at Tyrone, saying that
(06:48):
they had gone to this house and that Tyrone had
shot and killed this couple.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
And we used that word interview loosely.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Yes, in the episode, we speak with the youngest of
those guys, who talked about the pressure that was put
on him to basically point the finger at Tyrone, and
we interviewed him in the episode where He's like, none
of that happened. All three of these guys who pointed
the finger at Tyrone have all recanted, all say that
(07:15):
that never happened. And it's basically really hard for you know,
this one witness who is still having to live with that.
But Tyrone ended up being convicted and that's really the
only evidence against him. Everything else that they tried to
connect him fell apart. They said, well, he had a
gun that was the same kind of gun that was used,
but it ended up not being that gun. You know,
(07:36):
there are alternate suspects in this story, people with motive,
people with access, but Tyrone's team at the time wasn't
able to present these alternate suspects at the trial. His
legal team has been fighting for years to get access
to the original case files. There's some evidence that was
revealed only later after he was convicted. The defense was saying,
(07:57):
we didn't necessarily see all of this information, and the
prosecution was like, well, we think you did see this information,
and they're like, well, we didn't have the information. So
it was going back and forth whether the prosecution really
gave over all of the evidence to the defense or not.
And so what's been happening in the past few years
is that Tyrone's defense team is basically saying, we need
(08:18):
access to all of that material again to see what
was and what was not turned over originally, because if
they do find that there is material that would have
helped prove Tyrone's innocence that was withheld, that is a
Brady violation. Basically, the prosecution is required to turn over
all of the evidence in the case to the defense,
exculpatory evidence, and so that's what his legal team is
(08:40):
working on now. They've been in and out of court
trying to get access. They've been blocked repeatedly, but they
have been given access to these files and they're actively
going through them as we speak.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
As a result of the raised awareness of this case,
I think people are afraid to come forward when things
are first happed. I mean, right, there's just a lot
of fear, and time can soften that. And so it's
been decades at this point, and we had somebody come
forward that Tyrone told you about.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
I've still been in touch with Tyrone. We speak on
the phone occasionally and just sort of, you know, keep
update of what's going on with him.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
How old is Tyrone now? He's like fifty.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Yeah, he's from his early fifties. I believe to be
on death row. I mean, and just to be not
knowing what your fate is, what your future holds, is
really hard. But he does try to keep a really
positive attitude. So yeah, it's good just to be in
touch with him and just to talk to him. And
he reached out and said to me that a juror
from the original trial has come forward and said essentially
(09:45):
that if she had known all of the information that
is out there now about this case, and is specifically
about the alternate suspects that were never presented at the
original trial, if she had heard that evidence at the
original trial, she would not have voted to convict Tyrone.
(10:05):
And she seems to think too that she probably would
not have been the only one this jury if they
had heard about the viable alternate suspects, that they would
not have convicted Tyrone of this crime.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
It's crazy to me, and I didn't know this until
we started filming our show. How much control a judge
has over what information is allowed and not allowed, and
so the prosecution is allowed to present any theory they want.
They can make up a whole narrative about what they
think happened. But if the defense does the same thing
(10:40):
and presents a theory of an alternate suspect, the judge
can keep that out. And that's what happened in this situation.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
And the thing is is sometimes the defense doesn't even
know about these other suspects.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Well, if they don't see the original case files.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Yeah, some stuff comes out after the fact, some stuff
comes out during but they don't have access to it.
There's all kinds of reasons. There's all kinds of things
that could go wrong as far as getting this information
out in the original trial. But here's what's important about
this jur coming forward now, is that if Tyrone's team
finds evidence that should have been presented at the original
(11:17):
trial and makes the petition to say, hey, look this
is new evidence here, there should be a new trial.
We should vacate the original conviction and take a look
at this evidence again. Sometimes what happens in those cases
that the judge would say, well, yes, that is new evidence,
but it wouldn't have made a difference anyway, And so
sometimes judges will rule that way and not allow a
(11:38):
new trial even when there is new evidence. The significance
of this juror coming forward and saying this sort of
heads that argument off right away, Like she's coming out
even before there's even the possibility of a new trial.
Right now, she's coming forward and saying, yeah, I would
not have voted to convict him had I known about
these alternate suspects.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
So we have another case. This was one that was
really this was a hard one for me. The Virginia
Lars Leer case out of Edgewater, Florida was one that
I really connected with because this was a woman who
was married to a prominent dentist in town. She had
the fancy cars, she flew a plane, she had an
(12:25):
open marriage, and that was really scandalous in this small town.
But her and her husband seemed very like communicative about it.
But Virginia, she was a hard personality. She was big,
and she wasn't a woman who was apologetic. And I
saw a lot of the qualities in her that I
recognize in myself, and so to see them vilified in
(12:45):
this case was really difficult for me. She was vilified
for her sexuality, she was vilified for her looks, she
was vilified for her finances, she was vilified for being
a terrible mother, a parent, you know, like they really
put her through the ringer during the height of tabloid TV.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Yeah, the media hooked onto the salacious elements of that
story and that became the story.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
What I liked about her is that she had the
same moxie today that I'm sure she had all those
years ago, because she's the first person to tell you.
I Mean, she looked at me and she was like Hillary,
I was a bad woman. I was a bad woman.
You know, I was having affairs. I was pissing off
other moms at school. You know, I didn't care. And
I think that kind of frankness is and it's appealing
(13:31):
to me, but maybe not for everybody. And it became
really easy for the police to pin her husband's death
on her. Essentially, what happened is they went out to
lunch every day in their dental office, but this one
day they didn't go and an armed intruder came in
and her husband saw them, retreated and they shot through
(13:54):
the door and shot her husband, and then they took
off on a motorcycle. Narrative that was developed was that
Virginia had hired her teenage son, the step son of
her dead husband to shoot him, and they staged it
to look like a robbery, and there were all these inconsistencies,
(14:17):
and they had two separate chrialds. Virginia was tried first
and she was convicted of conspiracy and murder. But then
when they tried her son, the person who was supposed
to be the gunman, he was found not guilty. So
how can you have the gunman not guilty but the
person who hired the gunman guilty. It just did not
(14:38):
make any sense. And there's case law out there right
now that says you cannot be guilty of conspiracy to
commit murder if your partner was not guilty of the murder,
And so that's what her legal team is pushing for
right now. But the update that we had was much
more personal, Dan, you have all the details on this.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Virginia had. I had a couple of young sons at
the time that her husband was killed, and we reached
out to them to participate in the episode to see
if they would interview with us to talk about what
had gone on, and they were nice about a they
decline to participate in the episode, and then after the
(15:19):
show aired, one of Virginia's sons, who was very young
at the time that Virginia's husband was killed, reached out
to Sharin, our producer, and said, I watched the episode.
It has completely changed my thinking. He saw a side
of his mother that he had never seen before. It
(15:40):
completely shattered his previous sort of thoughts about his mother
and what had gone on, and he wants to reach
out to his mother. He wants to connect with her.
I'm not sure yet if he has, but I think
that for him, this idea that he has gotten his
(16:00):
mother back is really profound. And I can only imagine
for her when she is able to speak with him,
how much that would affect her. When she had that
conversation with you, it seemed like her biggest sadness was
the loss of her family. After she was incarcerated.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
She said, She's like, I could be in prison forever
if I had my kids, you know, if I had
a relationship with my kids. Like that's the thing that
hurts for the son to live his whole life thinking
that his mother had his father murdered. That's a horrible
thing for a kid to have thrust upon them, you know,
and to learn new information as an adult, you know,
(16:40):
he's like my age and have it completely shift must
be really, really difficult, and so I want to protect
the privacy of this reunion as it happens. But I
also want him to have his mother back, and I
want her to get out. And then let's see the
Jason Lively news is fantast This is also like more
(17:01):
good news. Let's tell everyone who hasn't watched the episode
a little bit about who Jason Lively is and what
his experience was.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
We did an episode in Jaeger, West Virginia, and it
was a story of the local town doctor who was
killed in a house fire. His house burned down and
he was in bed and he had mobility issues. He
used a scooter and so when the fire overcame his house,
he couldn't escape and died in the fire. His nurse,
(17:32):
longtime partner in the medical clinic, was at first accused
of maybe having something to do with this, and then
that her son was actually accused of starting this fire
that killed the doctor. Her son, Jason Lively, always maintained
that he had nothing to do with this. He even
(17:54):
when he heard that there was a fire, rushed to
the scene to see if he could help.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Didn't he try to run in the house to save
the doctor.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Yeah, they basically everyone you know, they tried to get
in to try to help save him. So this was
somebody who was really close to the family. This death
devastated Jason Lively and his mom and so then to
be accused of starting the fire and murdering him was
hard for them. So Jason was convicted of this murder
and he struggled in prison. He had a hard time
(18:24):
on the inside. He was often placed in solitary confinement.
He had sort of white supremacist gangs sort of wanting to,
you know, mark him up and claim him as their own,
and he refused, so there was a hit out on him.
It was a really, really difficult time for him in prison.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
There's no good choices for Jason in prison, but to
stay alive, solitary confinement was the best option. That's horrifine.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
I mean, Jason spent a lot of years in prison,
and a lot of them years in solitary confinement. Well,
the prosecutor in the case, after Jason was convicted, knew
that there will probably be some appeals coming, so he
went back through and looked at the evidence again and
got an expert opinion on the expert and the forensics
(19:16):
evidence that was in the case. Well, what he found
out was that this expert looked at this evidence and said,
this was not arson. This person was not murdered. This
was an electrical fire that started in the ceiling of
the downstairs the floor of the upstairs, and there was
no murder. So now there is no murder. There is
(19:37):
clear evidence that this was not a murder. Yet Jason
Lively remained in prison and his wife fought for him
on the outside.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Billy is incredible.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Billy is amazing. She stood by Jason, and when he
was at as dark as hour, she stayed by him.
And I think it was a really difficult thing, but
she was determined to do the right thing and to
prove what was going on here. And it is inconceivable, right,
and once you have evidence, it says this was not
a murder.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Billy, his wife was successful in petitioning to get Jason released.
But what does that even mean. You know, after years
of being in a cage, there's no money for therapy,
there's no money for him to get job training, there's
no money for his medication, there's no money to live.
So you're keeping him in prison even though you've let
(20:27):
him out, and West Virginia really dug their heels in.
But unlike some of the states that we have covered
before where there's no compensation for wrongful conviction, West Virginia
does have a specific fond for wrongful conviction compensation exactly.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
You know, they did the best they could, Jason and
Billy and try to sort of rebuild their life together.
But you know it was tough for them and they
just deserved to be compensated. It will never give them
back the years that Jason lost, but it will at
least make it so that they can do what they
(21:08):
need to do to rebuild their lives. So when our
episode aired, Jason's attorneys had been fighting to get him compensation. Well,
we got some really good news a few months ago
that the Legislative Claims Commission had approved money for Jason
(21:29):
one point five to six million after years.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
It's such a relief.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Yeah, But even though the Claims Commission recommends paying the money,
it's not a done deal. I mean, it basically has
to be written in the form of a bill that
has to be passed into law for this to happen.
And so just this year, the state legislature approved the
bill and sent it to the governor to sign. And
so I think it's very likely that Jason will get
(21:54):
the compensation owed to him and for a billion Jason.
I mean, it's just a huge relief. It's not nearly
an for what they've been through, not even close. But
I think for them it'll help them a lot, and
they deserve it.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
They really do. I Mean, Billy has just that woman
is a warrior, and she's had a lot of people
tell them they don't deserve compensation, or they've insinuated that
Jason is somehow guilty of a crime that didn't exist. Like,
she has really had to go up against a lot
of negative energy and she has been steadfast in it.
(22:28):
And so I'm happy that they're getting this compensation. Okay,
And the last update we have is about a case
that I talk about all the time. This was the
case that we collaborated with Robbia Chaudry on her podcast Undisclosed,
did a deep dive into the Greg Lance case in Cookeville, Tennessee.
It was another arson case, but a young man was
(22:51):
convicted of a double murder and arson. So Greg Lance
had been a contractor. He was part of the National Guard,
and when this couple that he was trying to buy
property from was murdered, they looked at him because he'd
been in a legal dispute with them, But they've been
in legal disputes with dozens of people. So our show
went and we knocked on doors, and we spoke to
(23:13):
the circuit court judge, and you know, we put in
a lot of work in Tennessee, and we spent a
lot of time talking to Greg on the phone as well,
And so Robbie has been an awesome teammate on this.
She spent a lot of time at the family. We've
spent a lot of time at the family at this point.
And there was a hearing last year that I flew
(23:34):
in for and sat with Greg's mother, Joyce, you know,
right behind Greg and his lawyers in the courtroom, and
a judge had been brought in especially for this situation.
They wanted a judge from outside of the area. And
so this guy came in and was like, you absolutely
(23:56):
should test the DNA and the fingerprints. What do you
mean you haven't tested did the DNA and the fingerprints
in all this time? So that was very exciting to
have that ruling. So we just got word from Greg's
lawyers with the Tennessee Innocence Project that Greg's big, big,
big hearing, the one where they are going to present
(24:18):
all of the evidence and all of the reasons that
Greg is actually innocent. That's going to happen this summer.
And so we found out and then like thirty seconds later,
I got a text message from Robbia She's like, are
we going. I'm like, you bet your ass were going.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Greg's mom, Joyce called me when this news came out
and was just like, Dan, I have an update. And
she's so sweet and she is so optimistic. When I
talked to Joyce, she's just like, you guys, the show
is that you make make a difference, and she just
said you just keep making them. And that really was like,
(24:58):
really moved me because I just, you know, when you
feel like is it worth what we're doing, like what
you know, are we doing anything? Are we having a
positive effect? And then to get a phone call like
that from Joyce was, you know, really really touched.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Me because as a direct result of that episode, there
was a lot of information that came forward. So let's
(25:30):
move on now to our newest season of It Couldn't
Happen Here that premieres April eighteenth. Everybody put it in
your calendar right now. I don't want to say it's
fun on the road, but there is a fulfillment in
being a part of a team that can go into
these communities and really gently tell these stories. You know,
(25:52):
I'm proud of the way our team navigates in these
small towns because we aren't out to get anybody. We
aren't out to pick on law enforcement or the judicial system.
Really it's about finding the nuance in these stories. And
so we were really lucky that our law enforcement involvement
went up this year. You know, we got access that
(26:14):
was very surprising to me.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
It's always for us to hear directly from the people
who investigated these crimes and to really get their story
of what they discovered and directly from them the details
of the investigation super important, and we had a couple
of really interesting interview subjects this year. We've got a
sheriff who at the time of the murder was a
(26:38):
deputy and then became sheriff later and then later also
became chief of police for a nearby town. So you
guys sat down and had this great, long conversation about
the case, about his involvement in the case, and that
was really amazing. I think what was interesting about speaking
with him. You know, this was a guy who was
elected sheriff and one of his priorities was undoing some
(27:04):
of the bad police work that he had witnessed as
a deputy. So he came in and explained to us
that he approached it like a businessman. And what I
didn't know before we started doing this show is that
you don't necessarily have to be law enforcement to run
for sheriff. Sheriff is an elected leadership position, and so
(27:24):
when he ran for sheriff, he had had a lot
of success in the world of business, and he came
into the department and managed it the way one would
run a multimillion dollar business. And so he took all
those other life skills, applied it to you know, the
sheriff's department, and really made a lot of change. It
(27:45):
was so interesting to talk with someone who was willing
to be critical, self critical, because so much of what
we've experienced is a resistance to that, whether it's you know, prosecutors, judges, whatever. So, yeah,
him being open minded about saying, no, that was shitty work,
We're going to redo it.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
I loved it.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
He was pretty fearless. Re Examining the work of the
previous sheriff is not really a popular thing to do,
and he was like, well, I don't care, this is
the right thing to do.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
We also spoke with another member of law enforcement down
in Alabama, and I didn't really know what to expect
in that situation, and the gentleman we spoke with was
so open about the lack of training and the lack
of education, and the limited resources of the departments he'd
worked in, and the struggles what it does to your
(28:38):
family when you're dealing with that kind of trauma every day.
It was really vulnerable. I felt a lot of sympathy
for him because he was clear that this wasn't malice,
this was a lack of resources, and he cited in
all the ways that they struggle in Alabama with education,
with funding, all of it.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
He gave us a lot of really good not just
on this particular story we were telling, but like you said,
in general of the job and the issues they face.
And yeah, he did get emotional when he talked about
you know, the stuff that he sees as law enforcement.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
And what is kids were exposed to. You know, it's
he was very vulnerable. What I've heard from our producers
and from executives is that it is the best episode
that we've ever done, the Alabama one. So I'm excited
for you guys at home to see that, and I
want to congratulate you, Dan. You worked really hard on that.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Our team really worked hard on that. Just getting the access,
I mean, walking into this story in the beginning of
our research and getting people on board. We didn't expect
to get law enforcement on that. Basically, other journalists have
tried to get people on record from the police department
there and met with resistant. The family of the victim
(29:52):
met with resistance, and so we were thinking, this is
going to be a story about how law enforcement doesn't
want to talk to us. Well, it turns out our
team really was tireless and reached out and kept trying
every angle possible and finally got this police officer who
was involved in this investigation to speak with us. And
then we also got the local sheriff to speak with
(30:12):
us too, So it was definitely the team really just
was they knew this case was important, and we wanted
to tell this story the best way possible.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Now, it's a really important episode. Other places that I'd
never been to before that the show brought us to
North Dakota is you know we talk when we're all
like driving around in the car, We're like, what's your
favorite place we've been to. I loved North Dakota. I've
never been there, and I fell so in love so quickly.
(30:41):
You guys made fun of me because as we were
driving around, I was like, I've never seen so many
shades of green before. This place is gorgeous.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
We had fifty shades of green on the drive out.
This story was great too, and I think for all
of us, I think we all loved North Dakota.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
And this is a story that is about a young person,
a teenager, a college student, leaving home and rather than
college being a place where he's protected and he's safe,
he gets ensnared in a really dangerous situation. And it's
a really important cautionary tale this episode in North Dakota. Now,
(31:16):
let's talk about the family we met down in Mississippi
this year. My husband watches all the episodes when you
guys send us the rough cuts and this is one
that he said was our best episode we've ever done,
And I mean he was pacing in our bedroom so
furious as he watched it, because the injustice is blatant.
(31:37):
Everyone was so pleasant we were down there. There's a
lot of Southern hospitality, but then you have this horrible
story that you're covering, and it's really difficult to stomach
that juxtaposition of oh my god, this place is so great,
this is beautiful, but not for everyone. Not everyone is
safe here, not everyone is treated well here. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
I mean, what was interesting from our conversation with the
family of the convicted man was the difference of perspective
as a black family, that they had a different perspective
than a white person coming into the town looking around saying,
look how beautiful this town is, and it's like, yeah,
it is a beautiful town, but there is another perspective
to look at here.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
Yeah, And that was a note that we got in
season one. You know, when we pitched this show, the
narrative was this is small towns are safe, so isn't
it crazy when things go bad here? And we were
really lucky to partner with Color of Change, and on
our Connecticut episode, they were like, hey, watch your phrasing,
(32:37):
because when you say that small towns are safe, you
mean that they're safe for white people or for men.
They're not historically safe for people from marginalized communities. You know,
when you look at the history of our country, small
towns are probably the most dangerous place for someone who
is in a vulnerable community. And that really changed my
(33:01):
perspective of small towns. And our Mississippi episode is a
prime example of that, where you have a family who
is upstanding. I mean, they have a church, they're as
good and charitable and kind and welcoming as you could dream,
and they're still treated like bad guys, like villains. They're
(33:22):
not believed and it's a frustrating story to tell, but
really important. And then we went back to Texas this
year and it was nice because we've worked with the
Texas Innocence Project on Brandon Woodrof's case that we went
into depth with here on the podcast. We had a
new case with them this year.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
The Texas case was really interesting. You know, I think
this season, all of our cases are pretty different than
things we've done before, and you know, they're not just
like okay that no one's been prosecuted for this homicide
or there's a possible wrongful conviction. We really got to
dig into the different techniques that the police use at
law Enforce used to convict somebody of this murder. And
(34:03):
the episode really focuses on these techniques and it's fascinating.
It really is fascinating. And when you listen to hours
and hours of the audio tapes and watch the hours
and hours of videotapes of this investigation, that's different for us.
We really you know, to have access to that material
and to really sort of be able to show the audience,
you know, what happens and how this works and what
(34:25):
the issues are surrounding it.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
And we spoke about that when we've pitched the show
and when we've promoted it, is that in our story,
there's not just one bad guy, there's multiple bad guys.
You know, the system is a bad guy, and in
this case, the interrogation techniques are the bad guy. I mean,
we were talking about crazy stuff like hypnosis, just crazy
stuff in this that was totally legal.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
Oh yeah, these are all very you know, legal police tactics.
This isn't wrongdoing in that sense. There's no laws being
broken here. So That's why it's sort of really interesting
to sort of think about not just this case, but
just how law enforcement works in general, when it works
well and when it doesn't work.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Well, yeah, no kidding, Dan, what's the takeaway that you
want listeners or viewers of our TV episodes to have.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Well, I think you know, the main point that we
hit since the beginning of this is for people to
get involved. You know, if people can make change in
their local community, that's great. We've had a lot of
people reaching out to us. You know, a lot of
people have messaged you, specifically.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Nicole Norton in the Christian Grace case. She was his
middle school teacher. She knew something was wrong, she sent
me a DM on Instagram, and the next thing you know,
we're down in North Carolina covering the case. And so
it really only takes one person to make a difference.
All right, Well, you guys, obviously we're very excited for
(35:54):
you to see these brand new episodes. We're very very
excited about the updates in a life lot of these
cases that we've covered in the past, and we're so
grateful for all of your involvement. You know, whether you
guys are tuning into the Instagram lives that we did,
or you're listening to the podcast, or you're sharing these
stories with your friends. Every little bit helps, and you
(36:17):
know it takes an army, but I think we have
a really good group collected here and we're seeing the
impact and that's really special. So thank you for being
part of our it Couldn't Happen Here family. That's it
for this season of True Crime Story, It Couldn't Happen Here.
My sincere thank you to everyone who joined us this
(36:38):
season on the podcast, and if the cases we covered
touched you in any way, I hope you feel inspired
to lift up your voice and support them. They need
all of our voices. We have brand new episodes for you,
and they need your help too, so mark your calendars.
We're coming to you April eighteen. If you haven't watched
(37:01):
Sundance TV's True Crime Story It Couldn't Happen Here, you
can catch all of our episodes streaming on AMC Plus.
For more information about this and other cases we've covered,
follow at ic HH stories on Instagram. True Crime Story
It Couldn't Happen Here was produced by Mischief Farm in
(37:25):
association with Bungalow Media and Entertainment, Authentic Management Productions and
Figdonia in partnership with Sundance TV. Executive producers are me
Hillary Burton, Morgan Liz Accessor, Robert Friedman, Mike Powers, and
Meg Mortimer. Producers are Maggie Robinson Katz and Libby Siegel.
(37:46):
Our audio engineer is Brendan Dalton, with original music by
Philip Radiotis. We want to say a special thank you
to everyone who participated, but especially the families impacted by
our cases. Day Boa
Hi guys, it's Hillary here. Just a quick note. This
series does deal with a lot of tough subject matter
that may be difficult for some listeners, so please keep
this in mind when and where you choose to listen
to these episodes. Before we get into this next episode,
I want to say a sincere thank you to all
(00:22):
of you who joined us this season as we dug
deep into the cases of Brandon Woodruff and Christian Griggs.
I hope that you will continue to follow their stories
and raise your voice to support their efforts of freedom
and justice. I say this all the time, but I
truly believe that together we can have a more just
(00:43):
judicial system. Now on this episode, Dan and I are
going to be sharing some very exciting updates on some
of our past cases, but we're also going to be
laying out the new season of the TV show for
you guys. So we got to go to some new
states this year. We hit North Dakota and May and
we covered a really wide variety of cases, each one
(01:04):
as heartbreaking and head scratching as the next. So roll
up your sleeves, we're ready to get to work. I'm
Hillary Burton Morgan, and this is true crime Story it
couldn't happen here. You guys, welcome to our finale episode
(01:26):
of True Crime Story. It couldn't happen here. This has
been a wild time for Dan Flaherty and I because
in the midst of taving this podcast, we've also been
out on the road filming the new season of the
Sun Dance television series. Dan, you're in post production? Hell
right now? Are you so exhausted?
Speaker 2 (01:45):
We are very busy. We filmed in six New towns
this year, and we've been editing away trying to get
the episodes ready for broadcast.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Yeah, we're excited for our show to finally launch. What
is our premiere date, Dan.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Our first episode of this season will premiere April eighteenth.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
We're really excited to tease you guys with a little
bit of information about what you can expect this season
on our show. But before we get into that, I
wanted to take some time and give you guys some updates.
Dan and I and our team have gotten a flurry
of updates about the cases that we have covered thus
(02:23):
far on the show, and I don't know. I think
when we first launch our episodes, I always expect there
to be an immediate response and what we've noticed is
that there's like a two year delay, that justice moves
much slower than the rest of the world. And all
of a sudden, we just got this flurry of phone
(02:44):
calls about things happening in our cases, including the cases
that we've done our deep dives on here on the podcast.
So what do we want to tell them about Brandon
Woodriff's case.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Basically, we spoke with the Innocence Project of Texas, the
attorneys there who are working with Brandon, and they got
a couple of calls and some new leads and they're
following up and hopefully could result in some new evidence
in the case.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Well, I think what's really important is that we always
encourage people to get involved, and so specifically in Brandon's case,
we have an opportunity for people to get involved coming up.
There is some pretty expensive forensic testing, physical evidence testing
that they're getting ready to work on, and they're going
to be setting up a go fund me specifically for that,
(03:31):
and so for people who are just as horrified as
we are at what went down in Texas, this is
a great opportunity to contribute to that GoFundMe, to share
it with your friends. The Innocence Project is setting it
up right now, and so hopefully we will have that
very soon to promote across all of our social media platforms.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
I mean, the work that the legal team is doing
in investigating on Brandon's behalf, I mean, it is expensive
and they don't have an unlimited amount of funds, and
so for people to be able to chip in and
help out really just to uncover evidence, and that's something
that that's real and substantive.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Yeah, so all right, fingers crossed. We've also had a
lot of updates in the Christian Greggs case, and maybe
not so much momentum in the justice of it all,
but in the awareness of this case. I've always maintained
really strong ties in North Carolina. I'm still a homeowner
in North Carolina. I bought a house there Season one
(04:27):
of One Tree Hill and I've never left. And so
for me, the contacts that I had in North Carolina,
you and I were able to tap into a few
of those. And for the Griggs family, nothing's going to
bring Christian back, but having people know his story and
(04:47):
holding authorities feet to the fire who were involved in
this is very important to them.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Yeah, I think exposing what's going on in Harnett County
and just being able to take a look not just
Christian's story, but beyond that as well. And I think
the Griggs family is very like you said, that's important
to them to sort of call out what they see
is wrong and try to correct things that can be corrected.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
And then we have all these cases Dan that we
have not covered on the podcast, But for anybody who
has watched the show, you guys at home are so
wonderful about really showing up and getting involved and doing
the homework. So we have a case in Ohio that
you have done so much extra work on. Do you
want to tell everybody what our updates there are?
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Sure? This is Tyrone Noling who was sentenced to death
for a murder that he didn't commit. And this was
in last season episode in at Water, Ohio, and he
is still sitting on death row and he is actively
fighting to get his name cleared.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
And what put him on death row. For the people
who haven't seen our episode.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Well, Tyrone's story was that he was living at the
time with a few of his friends sort of unsuit revised.
They were late teens. One was as young as fourteen.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
It reminded me of the Outsiders.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
You know.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
They were these young guys and they'd gotten into some
trouble in the past, and in a neighboring town from
where they were staying, there was a home invasion where
a older couple was murdered, and so the police looked
at these kids as possible suspects, but none of the
evidence of the scene connected them to these murders, and
they denied having any involvement or being anywhere near there,
(06:27):
and so the police basically dropped them as suspects and
the case essentially went cold until the local prosecutor sent
his investigator in to dig into this case, and he
focused again on these four young men. After a series
of long interviews and offering them deals, a few of
them basically pointed to the finger at Tyrone, saying that
(06:48):
they had gone to this house and that Tyrone had
shot and killed this couple.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
And we used that word interview loosely.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Yes, in the episode, we speak with the youngest of
those guys, who talked about the pressure that was put
on him to basically point the finger at Tyrone, and
we interviewed him in the episode where He's like, none
of that happened. All three of these guys who pointed
the finger at Tyrone have all recanted, all say that
(07:15):
that never happened. And it's basically really hard for you know,
this one witness who is still having to live with that.
But Tyrone ended up being convicted and that's really the
only evidence against him. Everything else that they tried to
connect him fell apart. They said, well, he had a
gun that was the same kind of gun that was used,
but it ended up not being that gun. You know,
(07:36):
there are alternate suspects in this story, people with motive,
people with access, but Tyrone's team at the time wasn't
able to present these alternate suspects at the trial. His
legal team has been fighting for years to get access
to the original case files. There's some evidence that was
revealed only later after he was convicted. The defense was saying,
(07:57):
we didn't necessarily see all of this information, and the
prosecution was like, well, we think you did see this information,
and they're like, well, we didn't have the information. So
it was going back and forth whether the prosecution really
gave over all of the evidence to the defense or not.
And so what's been happening in the past few years
is that Tyrone's defense team is basically saying, we need
(08:18):
access to all of that material again to see what
was and what was not turned over originally, because if
they do find that there is material that would have
helped prove Tyrone's innocence that was withheld, that is a
Brady violation. Basically, the prosecution is required to turn over
all of the evidence in the case to the defense,
exculpatory evidence, and so that's what his legal team is
(08:40):
working on now. They've been in and out of court
trying to get access. They've been blocked repeatedly, but they
have been given access to these files and they're actively
going through them as we speak.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
As a result of the raised awareness of this case,
I think people are afraid to come forward when things
are first happed. I mean, right, there's just a lot
of fear, and time can soften that. And so it's
been decades at this point, and we had somebody come
forward that Tyrone told you about.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
I've still been in touch with Tyrone. We speak on
the phone occasionally and just sort of, you know, keep
update of what's going on with him.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
How old is Tyrone now? He's like fifty.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Yeah, he's from his early fifties. I believe to be
on death row. I mean, and just to be not
knowing what your fate is, what your future holds, is
really hard. But he does try to keep a really
positive attitude. So yeah, it's good just to be in
touch with him and just to talk to him. And
he reached out and said to me that a juror
from the original trial has come forward and said essentially
(09:45):
that if she had known all of the information that
is out there now about this case, and is specifically
about the alternate suspects that were never presented at the
original trial, if she had heard that evidence at the
original trial, she would not have voted to convict Tyrone.
(10:05):
And she seems to think too that she probably would
not have been the only one this jury if they
had heard about the viable alternate suspects, that they would
not have convicted Tyrone of this crime.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
It's crazy to me, and I didn't know this until
we started filming our show. How much control a judge
has over what information is allowed and not allowed, and
so the prosecution is allowed to present any theory they want.
They can make up a whole narrative about what they
think happened. But if the defense does the same thing
(10:40):
and presents a theory of an alternate suspect, the judge
can keep that out. And that's what happened in this situation.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
And the thing is is sometimes the defense doesn't even
know about these other suspects.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Well, if they don't see the original case files.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Yeah, some stuff comes out after the fact, some stuff
comes out during but they don't have access to it.
There's all kinds of reasons. There's all kinds of things
that could go wrong as far as getting this information
out in the original trial. But here's what's important about
this jur coming forward now, is that if Tyrone's team
finds evidence that should have been presented at the original
(11:17):
trial and makes the petition to say, hey, look this
is new evidence here, there should be a new trial.
We should vacate the original conviction and take a look
at this evidence again. Sometimes what happens in those cases
that the judge would say, well, yes, that is new evidence,
but it wouldn't have made a difference anyway, And so
sometimes judges will rule that way and not allow a
(11:38):
new trial even when there is new evidence. The significance
of this juror coming forward and saying this sort of
heads that argument off right away, Like she's coming out
even before there's even the possibility of a new trial.
Right now, she's coming forward and saying, yeah, I would
not have voted to convict him had I known about
these alternate suspects.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
So we have another case. This was one that was
really this was a hard one for me. The Virginia
Lars Leer case out of Edgewater, Florida was one that
I really connected with because this was a woman who
was married to a prominent dentist in town. She had
the fancy cars, she flew a plane, she had an
(12:25):
open marriage, and that was really scandalous in this small town.
But her and her husband seemed very like communicative about it.
But Virginia, she was a hard personality. She was big,
and she wasn't a woman who was apologetic. And I
saw a lot of the qualities in her that I
recognize in myself, and so to see them vilified in
(12:45):
this case was really difficult for me. She was vilified
for her sexuality, she was vilified for her looks, she
was vilified for her finances, she was vilified for being
a terrible mother, a parent, you know, like they really
put her through the ringer during the height of tabloid TV.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Yeah, the media hooked onto the salacious elements of that
story and that became the story.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
What I liked about her is that she had the
same moxie today that I'm sure she had all those
years ago, because she's the first person to tell you.
I Mean, she looked at me and she was like Hillary,
I was a bad woman. I was a bad woman.
You know, I was having affairs. I was pissing off
other moms at school. You know, I didn't care. And
I think that kind of frankness is and it's appealing
(13:31):
to me, but maybe not for everybody. And it became
really easy for the police to pin her husband's death
on her. Essentially, what happened is they went out to
lunch every day in their dental office, but this one
day they didn't go and an armed intruder came in
and her husband saw them, retreated and they shot through
(13:54):
the door and shot her husband, and then they took
off on a motorcycle. Narrative that was developed was that
Virginia had hired her teenage son, the step son of
her dead husband to shoot him, and they staged it
to look like a robbery, and there were all these inconsistencies,
(14:17):
and they had two separate chrialds. Virginia was tried first
and she was convicted of conspiracy and murder. But then
when they tried her son, the person who was supposed
to be the gunman, he was found not guilty. So
how can you have the gunman not guilty but the
person who hired the gunman guilty. It just did not
(14:38):
make any sense. And there's case law out there right
now that says you cannot be guilty of conspiracy to
commit murder if your partner was not guilty of the murder,
And so that's what her legal team is pushing for
right now. But the update that we had was much
more personal, Dan, you have all the details on this.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Virginia had. I had a couple of young sons at
the time that her husband was killed, and we reached
out to them to participate in the episode to see
if they would interview with us to talk about what
had gone on, and they were nice about a they
decline to participate in the episode, and then after the
(15:19):
show aired, one of Virginia's sons, who was very young
at the time that Virginia's husband was killed, reached out
to Sharin, our producer, and said, I watched the episode.
It has completely changed my thinking. He saw a side
of his mother that he had never seen before. It
(15:40):
completely shattered his previous sort of thoughts about his mother
and what had gone on, and he wants to reach
out to his mother. He wants to connect with her.
I'm not sure yet if he has, but I think
that for him, this idea that he has gotten his
(16:00):
mother back is really profound. And I can only imagine
for her when she is able to speak with him,
how much that would affect her. When she had that
conversation with you, it seemed like her biggest sadness was
the loss of her family. After she was incarcerated.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
She said, She's like, I could be in prison forever
if I had my kids, you know, if I had
a relationship with my kids. Like that's the thing that
hurts for the son to live his whole life thinking
that his mother had his father murdered. That's a horrible
thing for a kid to have thrust upon them, you know,
and to learn new information as an adult, you know,
(16:40):
he's like my age and have it completely shift must
be really, really difficult, and so I want to protect
the privacy of this reunion as it happens. But I
also want him to have his mother back, and I
want her to get out. And then let's see the
Jason Lively news is fantast This is also like more
(17:01):
good news. Let's tell everyone who hasn't watched the episode
a little bit about who Jason Lively is and what
his experience was.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
We did an episode in Jaeger, West Virginia, and it
was a story of the local town doctor who was
killed in a house fire. His house burned down and
he was in bed and he had mobility issues. He
used a scooter and so when the fire overcame his house,
he couldn't escape and died in the fire. His nurse,
(17:32):
longtime partner in the medical clinic, was at first accused
of maybe having something to do with this, and then
that her son was actually accused of starting this fire
that killed the doctor. Her son, Jason Lively, always maintained
that he had nothing to do with this. He even
(17:54):
when he heard that there was a fire, rushed to
the scene to see if he could help.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Didn't he try to run in the house to save
the doctor.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Yeah, they basically everyone you know, they tried to get
in to try to help save him. So this was
somebody who was really close to the family. This death
devastated Jason Lively and his mom and so then to
be accused of starting the fire and murdering him was
hard for them. So Jason was convicted of this murder
and he struggled in prison. He had a hard time
(18:24):
on the inside. He was often placed in solitary confinement.
He had sort of white supremacist gangs sort of wanting to,
you know, mark him up and claim him as their own,
and he refused, so there was a hit out on him.
It was a really, really difficult time for him in prison.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
There's no good choices for Jason in prison, but to
stay alive, solitary confinement was the best option. That's horrifine.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
I mean, Jason spent a lot of years in prison,
and a lot of them years in solitary confinement. Well,
the prosecutor in the case, after Jason was convicted, knew
that there will probably be some appeals coming, so he
went back through and looked at the evidence again and
got an expert opinion on the expert and the forensics
(19:16):
evidence that was in the case. Well, what he found
out was that this expert looked at this evidence and said,
this was not arson. This person was not murdered. This
was an electrical fire that started in the ceiling of
the downstairs the floor of the upstairs, and there was
no murder. So now there is no murder. There is
(19:37):
clear evidence that this was not a murder. Yet Jason
Lively remained in prison and his wife fought for him
on the outside.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Billy is incredible.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Billy is amazing. She stood by Jason, and when he
was at as dark as hour, she stayed by him.
And I think it was a really difficult thing, but
she was determined to do the right thing and to
prove what was going on here. And it is inconceivable, right,
and once you have evidence, it says this was not
a murder.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Billy, his wife was successful in petitioning to get Jason released.
But what does that even mean. You know, after years
of being in a cage, there's no money for therapy,
there's no money for him to get job training, there's
no money for his medication, there's no money to live.
So you're keeping him in prison even though you've let
(20:27):
him out, and West Virginia really dug their heels in.
But unlike some of the states that we have covered
before where there's no compensation for wrongful conviction, West Virginia
does have a specific fond for wrongful conviction compensation exactly.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
You know, they did the best they could, Jason and
Billy and try to sort of rebuild their life together.
But you know it was tough for them and they
just deserved to be compensated. It will never give them
back the years that Jason lost, but it will at
least make it so that they can do what they
(21:08):
need to do to rebuild their lives. So when our
episode aired, Jason's attorneys had been fighting to get him compensation. Well,
we got some really good news a few months ago
that the Legislative Claims Commission had approved money for Jason
(21:29):
one point five to six million after years.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
It's such a relief.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Yeah, But even though the Claims Commission recommends paying the money,
it's not a done deal. I mean, it basically has
to be written in the form of a bill that
has to be passed into law for this to happen.
And so just this year, the state legislature approved the
bill and sent it to the governor to sign. And
so I think it's very likely that Jason will get
(21:54):
the compensation owed to him and for a billion Jason.
I mean, it's just a huge relief. It's not nearly
an for what they've been through, not even close. But
I think for them it'll help them a lot, and
they deserve it.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
They really do. I Mean, Billy has just that woman
is a warrior, and she's had a lot of people
tell them they don't deserve compensation, or they've insinuated that
Jason is somehow guilty of a crime that didn't exist. Like,
she has really had to go up against a lot
of negative energy and she has been steadfast in it.
(22:28):
And so I'm happy that they're getting this compensation. Okay,
And the last update we have is about a case
that I talk about all the time. This was the
case that we collaborated with Robbia Chaudry on her podcast Undisclosed,
did a deep dive into the Greg Lance case in Cookeville, Tennessee.
It was another arson case, but a young man was
(22:51):
convicted of a double murder and arson. So Greg Lance
had been a contractor. He was part of the National Guard,
and when this couple that he was trying to buy
property from was murdered, they looked at him because he'd
been in a legal dispute with them, But they've been
in legal disputes with dozens of people. So our show
went and we knocked on doors, and we spoke to
(23:13):
the circuit court judge, and you know, we put in
a lot of work in Tennessee, and we spent a
lot of time talking to Greg on the phone as well,
And so Robbie has been an awesome teammate on this.
She spent a lot of time at the family. We've
spent a lot of time at the family at this point.
And there was a hearing last year that I flew
(23:34):
in for and sat with Greg's mother, Joyce, you know,
right behind Greg and his lawyers in the courtroom, and
a judge had been brought in especially for this situation.
They wanted a judge from outside of the area. And
so this guy came in and was like, you absolutely
(23:56):
should test the DNA and the fingerprints. What do you
mean you haven't tested did the DNA and the fingerprints
in all this time? So that was very exciting to
have that ruling. So we just got word from Greg's
lawyers with the Tennessee Innocence Project that Greg's big, big,
big hearing, the one where they are going to present
(24:18):
all of the evidence and all of the reasons that
Greg is actually innocent. That's going to happen this summer.
And so we found out and then like thirty seconds later,
I got a text message from Robbia She's like, are
we going. I'm like, you bet your ass were going.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Greg's mom, Joyce called me when this news came out
and was just like, Dan, I have an update. And
she's so sweet and she is so optimistic. When I
talked to Joyce, she's just like, you guys, the show
is that you make make a difference, and she just
said you just keep making them. And that really was like,
(24:58):
really moved me because I just, you know, when you
feel like is it worth what we're doing, like what
you know, are we doing anything? Are we having a
positive effect? And then to get a phone call like
that from Joyce was, you know, really really touched.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Me because as a direct result of that episode, there
was a lot of information that came forward. So let's
(25:30):
move on now to our newest season of It Couldn't
Happen Here that premieres April eighteenth. Everybody put it in
your calendar right now. I don't want to say it's
fun on the road, but there is a fulfillment in
being a part of a team that can go into
these communities and really gently tell these stories. You know,
(25:52):
I'm proud of the way our team navigates in these
small towns because we aren't out to get anybody. We
aren't out to pick on law enforcement or the judicial system.
Really it's about finding the nuance in these stories. And
so we were really lucky that our law enforcement involvement
went up this year. You know, we got access that
(26:14):
was very surprising to me.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
It's always for us to hear directly from the people
who investigated these crimes and to really get their story
of what they discovered and directly from them the details
of the investigation super important, and we had a couple
of really interesting interview subjects this year. We've got a
sheriff who at the time of the murder was a
(26:38):
deputy and then became sheriff later and then later also
became chief of police for a nearby town. So you
guys sat down and had this great, long conversation about
the case, about his involvement in the case, and that
was really amazing. I think what was interesting about speaking
with him. You know, this was a guy who was
elected sheriff and one of his priorities was undoing some
(27:04):
of the bad police work that he had witnessed as
a deputy. So he came in and explained to us
that he approached it like a businessman. And what I
didn't know before we started doing this show is that
you don't necessarily have to be law enforcement to run
for sheriff. Sheriff is an elected leadership position, and so
(27:24):
when he ran for sheriff, he had had a lot
of success in the world of business, and he came
into the department and managed it the way one would
run a multimillion dollar business. And so he took all
those other life skills, applied it to you know, the
sheriff's department, and really made a lot of change. It
(27:45):
was so interesting to talk with someone who was willing
to be critical, self critical, because so much of what
we've experienced is a resistance to that, whether it's you know, prosecutors, judges, whatever. So, yeah,
him being open minded about saying, no, that was shitty work,
We're going to redo it.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
I loved it.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
He was pretty fearless. Re Examining the work of the
previous sheriff is not really a popular thing to do,
and he was like, well, I don't care, this is
the right thing to do.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
We also spoke with another member of law enforcement down
in Alabama, and I didn't really know what to expect
in that situation, and the gentleman we spoke with was
so open about the lack of training and the lack
of education, and the limited resources of the departments he'd
worked in, and the struggles what it does to your
(28:38):
family when you're dealing with that kind of trauma every day.
It was really vulnerable. I felt a lot of sympathy
for him because he was clear that this wasn't malice,
this was a lack of resources, and he cited in
all the ways that they struggle in Alabama with education,
with funding, all of it.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
He gave us a lot of really good not just
on this particular story we were telling, but like you said,
in general of the job and the issues they face.
And yeah, he did get emotional when he talked about
you know, the stuff that he sees as law enforcement.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
And what is kids were exposed to. You know, it's
he was very vulnerable. What I've heard from our producers
and from executives is that it is the best episode
that we've ever done, the Alabama one. So I'm excited
for you guys at home to see that, and I
want to congratulate you, Dan. You worked really hard on that.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Our team really worked hard on that. Just getting the access,
I mean, walking into this story in the beginning of
our research and getting people on board. We didn't expect
to get law enforcement on that. Basically, other journalists have
tried to get people on record from the police department
there and met with resistant. The family of the victim
(29:52):
met with resistance, and so we were thinking, this is
going to be a story about how law enforcement doesn't
want to talk to us. Well, it turns out our
team really was tireless and reached out and kept trying
every angle possible and finally got this police officer who
was involved in this investigation to speak with us. And
then we also got the local sheriff to speak with
(30:12):
us too, So it was definitely the team really just
was they knew this case was important, and we wanted
to tell this story the best way possible.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Now, it's a really important episode. Other places that I'd
never been to before that the show brought us to
North Dakota is you know we talk when we're all
like driving around in the car, We're like, what's your
favorite place we've been to. I loved North Dakota. I've
never been there, and I fell so in love so quickly.
(30:41):
You guys made fun of me because as we were
driving around, I was like, I've never seen so many
shades of green before. This place is gorgeous.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
We had fifty shades of green on the drive out.
This story was great too, and I think for all
of us, I think we all loved North Dakota.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
And this is a story that is about a young person,
a teenager, a college student, leaving home and rather than
college being a place where he's protected and he's safe,
he gets ensnared in a really dangerous situation. And it's
a really important cautionary tale this episode in North Dakota. Now,
(31:16):
let's talk about the family we met down in Mississippi
this year. My husband watches all the episodes when you
guys send us the rough cuts and this is one
that he said was our best episode we've ever done,
And I mean he was pacing in our bedroom so
furious as he watched it, because the injustice is blatant.
(31:37):
Everyone was so pleasant we were down there. There's a
lot of Southern hospitality, but then you have this horrible
story that you're covering, and it's really difficult to stomach
that juxtaposition of oh my god, this place is so great,
this is beautiful, but not for everyone. Not everyone is
safe here, not everyone is treated well here. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
I mean, what was interesting from our conversation with the
family of the convicted man was the difference of perspective
as a black family, that they had a different perspective
than a white person coming into the town looking around saying,
look how beautiful this town is, and it's like, yeah,
it is a beautiful town, but there is another perspective
to look at here.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
Yeah, And that was a note that we got in
season one. You know, when we pitched this show, the
narrative was this is small towns are safe, so isn't
it crazy when things go bad here? And we were
really lucky to partner with Color of Change, and on
our Connecticut episode, they were like, hey, watch your phrasing,
(32:37):
because when you say that small towns are safe, you
mean that they're safe for white people or for men.
They're not historically safe for people from marginalized communities. You know,
when you look at the history of our country, small
towns are probably the most dangerous place for someone who
is in a vulnerable community. And that really changed my
(33:01):
perspective of small towns. And our Mississippi episode is a
prime example of that, where you have a family who
is upstanding. I mean, they have a church, they're as
good and charitable and kind and welcoming as you could dream,
and they're still treated like bad guys, like villains. They're
(33:22):
not believed and it's a frustrating story to tell, but
really important. And then we went back to Texas this
year and it was nice because we've worked with the
Texas Innocence Project on Brandon Woodrof's case that we went
into depth with here on the podcast. We had a
new case with them this year.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
The Texas case was really interesting. You know, I think
this season, all of our cases are pretty different than
things we've done before, and you know, they're not just
like okay that no one's been prosecuted for this homicide
or there's a possible wrongful conviction. We really got to
dig into the different techniques that the police use at
law Enforce used to convict somebody of this murder. And
(34:03):
the episode really focuses on these techniques and it's fascinating.
It really is fascinating. And when you listen to hours
and hours of the audio tapes and watch the hours
and hours of videotapes of this investigation, that's different for us.
We really you know, to have access to that material
and to really sort of be able to show the audience,
you know, what happens and how this works and what
(34:25):
the issues are surrounding it.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
And we spoke about that when we've pitched the show
and when we've promoted it, is that in our story,
there's not just one bad guy, there's multiple bad guys.
You know, the system is a bad guy, and in
this case, the interrogation techniques are the bad guy. I mean,
we were talking about crazy stuff like hypnosis, just crazy
stuff in this that was totally legal.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
Oh yeah, these are all very you know, legal police tactics.
This isn't wrongdoing in that sense. There's no laws being
broken here. So That's why it's sort of really interesting
to sort of think about not just this case, but
just how law enforcement works in general, when it works
well and when it doesn't work.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Well, yeah, no kidding, Dan, what's the takeaway that you
want listeners or viewers of our TV episodes to have.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Well, I think you know, the main point that we
hit since the beginning of this is for people to
get involved. You know, if people can make change in
their local community, that's great. We've had a lot of
people reaching out to us. You know, a lot of
people have messaged you, specifically.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Nicole Norton in the Christian Grace case. She was his
middle school teacher. She knew something was wrong, she sent
me a DM on Instagram, and the next thing you know,
we're down in North Carolina covering the case. And so
it really only takes one person to make a difference.
All right, Well, you guys, obviously we're very excited for
(35:54):
you to see these brand new episodes. We're very very
excited about the updates in a life lot of these
cases that we've covered in the past, and we're so
grateful for all of your involvement. You know, whether you
guys are tuning into the Instagram lives that we did,
or you're listening to the podcast, or you're sharing these
stories with your friends. Every little bit helps, and you
(36:17):
know it takes an army, but I think we have
a really good group collected here and we're seeing the
impact and that's really special. So thank you for being
part of our it Couldn't Happen Here family. That's it
for this season of True Crime Story, It Couldn't Happen Here.
My sincere thank you to everyone who joined us this
(36:38):
season on the podcast, and if the cases we covered
touched you in any way, I hope you feel inspired
to lift up your voice and support them. They need
all of our voices. We have brand new episodes for you,
and they need your help too, so mark your calendars.
We're coming to you April eighteen. If you haven't watched
(37:01):
Sundance TV's True Crime Story It Couldn't Happen Here, you
can catch all of our episodes streaming on AMC Plus.
For more information about this and other cases we've covered,
follow at ic HH stories on Instagram. True Crime Story
It Couldn't Happen Here was produced by Mischief Farm in
(37:25):
association with Bungalow Media and Entertainment, Authentic Management Productions and
Figdonia in partnership with Sundance TV. Executive producers are me
Hillary Burton, Morgan Liz Accessor, Robert Friedman, Mike Powers, and
Meg Mortimer. Producers are Maggie Robinson Katz and Libby Siegel.
(37:46):
Our audio engineer is Brendan Dalton, with original music by
Philip Radiotis. We want to say a special thank you
to everyone who participated, but especially the families impacted by
our cases. Day Boa
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