November 14, 2023 • 38 mins
Charla Woodruff, Brandon’s older sister, requests a second interview with law enforcement. The team discusses the allegations Brandon’s sister makes, as well as a shocking revelation from Brandon’s former friend, Mike Etherington.
For more information about this and other cases we've covered, follow @ICHHstories on Instagram.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi guys, it's Hillary here. Just a quick note. This
series does deal with a lot of tough subject matter
that may be difficult for some listeners, so please keep
this in mind when and where you choose to listen
to these episodes. Ranger Collins is irate. He slams his
(00:22):
hands down on the table in the cramped, windowless interrogation
room somewhere just outside of Dallas. Mike Etherington, a former
friend of Brandon Woodruff and fellowshitkicker, may have given him
inaccurate information and this could not only compromise Ranger Collins's reputation,
but put the whole investigation in jeopardy. Last episode, we
(00:44):
dove into the timeline of Brandon's whereabouts the night his
parents were murdered. In this episode, we'll dive into Charla's
second interview with law enforcement, as well as a surprising
interview with Mike Etherington. I'm Hillary Burton Morgan and this
is true crime story. It couldn't happen here. Welcome back
(01:16):
to another episode of It Couldn't Happen Here. You guys
know the crew by now I am with Dan Hoe
and Andrew. You guys, Charla visits Ranger Collins for another interview.
How did that all happen?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
She went to visit Brandon after he's been arrested in
the jail and then comes down voluntarily to speak with
the ranger and the police about Brandon.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Okay, Now, we.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
Have already done a very extensive interview with you, and
I think it lasted two and a half three hours
or something, okay, And I know that we got lots
of lots of information from you. Okay, But again, you
contacted us and said that there were some other stuff
that you wanted to tell us that you kind of
(02:03):
thought was maybe strange or something that your brother was doing.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
And let me ask you, do you suspect your brother?
Speaker 5 (02:13):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (02:14):
Okay, And it's because of some of the things you
weren't withholding anything from us the other day. You just
really didn't. It wasn't as suspicious to you at that time.
Speaker 5 (02:23):
No, it was no, I mean it wasn't.
Speaker 6 (02:31):
Good, all right, they it wasn't just visically or whenever
they brought my brother back here. My aunt said, Charlotte,
do you think that he could have done? And I said,
I would like to tell you now, but if you
asked me if my parents would have been murdered.
Speaker 5 (02:53):
I would have told her now, and that's just you.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
You would have told her, Yeah, I'm going to have
told you no, oh no, that he could.
Speaker 7 (03:01):
Well.
Speaker 5 (03:01):
If you asked me a month ago, are your parents
gonna be murdered?
Speaker 7 (03:04):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (03:05):
You were said no.
Speaker 5 (03:07):
Okay, So if you're asking me if my brother would
have done it, I.
Speaker 7 (03:10):
Would have normally said no, sure, you.
Speaker 6 (03:13):
Know, I mean, but obviously my parents are murdered, So
I mean, things are happening that I would have normally
guess no, you know, normally.
Speaker 5 (03:23):
Naturally would not happened.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
She's only just saying the behavior that I wasn't thinking
was bad now I'm thinking it's bad because everything's changed.
But she came down there with something to say. I mean,
she runs down to the police after she's confronted her brother.
It sounds like she's saying she decided he has done
it before she went up and confronted him. It's really weird.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Charla is playing detective. She has taken it upon herself
to go visit her brother in jail, not.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
To commiserate or give him support, but to confront him.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
She has apparently looked at a webs sight and seen
pictures of him with a firefighter with other gay men.
So she's done some investigative work. I don't know if
someone else showed it to her or she found it
on her own, but she confronts her brother with that.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
You don't want to.
Speaker 5 (04:14):
I said, Brandon, are you gay? He said no. I
said are you gay?
Speaker 7 (04:21):
And he said no.
Speaker 6 (04:23):
Well, honey, there's this website that I looked at and
who was this firefighter?
Speaker 5 (04:32):
Because y'all have an awful good time. He wants to
make sure you had fun last.
Speaker 6 (04:36):
Weekend and another weekend and uh, he said, that's my.
Speaker 5 (04:40):
Friend from Florida. He lives in Florida.
Speaker 6 (04:43):
I said, okay, said there's a lot of guys on there, Brandon,
a lot of guys. He's well, I have a lot
of gay friends. I was like, well, that's great, that's
good for you. Who's Alex? No, I said no, before that,
before I've said who's Alex?
Speaker 7 (05:01):
I said.
Speaker 6 (05:01):
Thing is, they're keying in on a lot of weird things,
a lot of weird things, and a lot of people
are saying you're gay.
Speaker 5 (05:08):
And if you lie, I know the VEASKI if you're gay?
Speaker 6 (05:12):
If you lie about little things, Brandon even if you
think they're upsetting about family.
Speaker 5 (05:16):
If you lie about little things.
Speaker 6 (05:19):
But you're telling the truth about the big things, they're
going to know you're a liar and they're not going.
Speaker 5 (05:23):
To believe you.
Speaker 6 (05:25):
I said, so you need to fly out tell them
the truth about everything. And he's like, I'm not good.
I'm not gay, I said, Brandon, who's Alex. Well, Alex
is my best friend. I said to Brandon, who is Alex.
He's like, Alex is gay, But I'm not gay.
Speaker 5 (05:42):
I said, And I just stared.
Speaker 6 (05:45):
At him, and I was like, well, you need to
tell the truth.
Speaker 5 (05:51):
Honestly, you need to tell the truth, because.
Speaker 6 (05:57):
You know, if you lie about these little bitty things,
then if you tell the truth about the big thing
they've already wanted, he is a liar and you're a
liar to them, and they don't care.
Speaker 5 (06:11):
And I said, Brain, I'm scared for you. They have
evidence against you, and you're screwed.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
You have have no doubt in my mind that.
Speaker 5 (06:21):
You did it.
Speaker 4 (06:23):
You told your brother that that there's no doubt in
your mind that he did it or you had.
Speaker 7 (06:27):
Something to do with it.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
God, I can't imagine for him being arrested for your parents,
arrested for your parents' murder, and then being outed in
this way. You know, people's coming out stories can be really, really,
really traumatic, and to be outed in this way, have
it on tape, have it be with law enforcement. Like
(06:49):
all of these factors, we can't downplay. That is a
horror show. Texas in two thousand and five is a
life for death situation, and here she is gathering evidence
against her brother and laughing as she relays it. So
I can't make a character judgment on that. All I
can say is that it is heavy.
Speaker 8 (07:11):
In this interview, Actually, Charla is the one that presents
the moral argument as to why Brandon is guilty.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Yeah, she lays out the map.
Speaker 8 (07:21):
The map is he's gay, he's hiding it, he's lying
about it. And if you can lie about this thing
about your life, then certainly you must be lying about
the big thing, which is murdering your parents.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Why is that tagline that she gives in this interview
so important?
Speaker 8 (07:38):
I think she I mean, as far as we know,
this is the first time we actually hear this tagline.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
But we hear it again and again. I mean, she
says it this first time, and then later we even
hear Ranger Collins use this line in another interview, so
it's almost as if Charla provided the log line for
the case against brand.
Speaker 8 (08:00):
Okay, that's what he told me.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
Well, and then now that's something too, because he's he's
telling us that now I'm straight, I've got a girlfriend
and all that.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
But we're hearing from friends you know that he is gay.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
Which I mean, we don't care one way or another,
but I mean, if you're gonna lie about something little
like that, then you know, are you gonna lie.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
About something big?
Speaker 4 (08:20):
I mean, if you can lie something about your sexual orientation,
then you ought to be able to lie about something big.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
But again, let's go back after the bodies are discovered.
It's Norma and Mike Etherington who are saying you need
to look at Brandon because he's not who he seems,
and that is already saying he's leading a double life.
So there's something suspicious and wrong about him. He's a liar.
I mean, if that's his sister's response.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Of course he kept it secret. We found a video
of Charla from two thousand and four on the internet
from college, and we don't know much about her. Obviously,
her family is protective of her. She's a mother. Now
she's moved on. I can't imagine what it's like to
lose your entire family, your parents and your sibling. But
in this interview, Charlotte talks about her attraction to law enforcement.
Speaker 5 (09:11):
Welcome to this edition of the Essay Report. I'm Casey.
Speaker 9 (09:14):
Body with me today is Charlie Woodrow, a co founder
of Swick.
Speaker 5 (09:19):
Charlotte.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Thank you for being with us today.
Speaker 9 (09:21):
Charlie, what is.
Speaker 5 (09:22):
Your major here at Essay you.
Speaker 9 (09:24):
I'm currently a criminal justice major, and I chose this
major because ever since I was young, I imagine being a cop.
And I don't know if it's a fascination with guns
or if it was the authority or you know, just
the power. It's like, yeah, but I really want to
have a chance to get back to the community and
(09:44):
offer a community a feel of protection and security where
they live. This university offers now is an advanced topic,
and they have a class called Victimology that gets really
in depth with thevictims and after they're dead and going
through like that.
Speaker 10 (10:05):
Have you taken that question?
Speaker 5 (10:06):
No, I haven't.
Speaker 9 (10:07):
I'm very excited that I'm going to take it in
this spring along with a class called corrections.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
So again, this was about a year before the murders
of Dennis and Norma Woodruff. And what I find interesting
is that it almost seems like Charla is taking what
she learned in this class, you know, something she says
she's been interested in since she was a child, and
she's applying it to her own family in this line
of investigation that she's conducting against her own brother.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Yeah, she's jumping in with the cops against family, which
is an unusual thing to do.
Speaker 11 (10:40):
I mean, I think one thing to think about and
lettas she'd mentioned, the course that she was excited about
was victimology, right, and in this case of she's a
victim her parents were murdered, you know, she's a survivor
of a murder, right, And I think she's identifying as
a victim in this case. And I think once the
seed is planted that her brother may have killed her parents,
(11:02):
she's going to be angry with him, right, I mean,
if she really thinks that might be the case, you.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Know, Right, Well, her first interview is about how angry
she is at her parents, and her second interview less
than a week later, you can see how angry she
is about her brother.
Speaker 11 (11:16):
Yeah, I don't think, but I don't think there was
anything even in the first interview that she said that
she didn't love her parents or that she wasn't you
know what I mean, it was like she wanted them
dead in any way.
Speaker 8 (11:25):
I think Dan's giving her credit for being thoughtful. She's
being thoughtful in a way that we don't expect, and
perhaps it's counter to sort of our thinking as well.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
I mean, thoughtful would be forensic evidence, right, not your
brother's sexual orientation.
Speaker 8 (11:41):
I mean, you're saying that she's changed position, and she
seems different when she comes in for the second interview.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Now I'm saying she seems the same. She seems angry
both times at targets that are kind of unusual in
the circumstances. And I mean, she's already thought about what
you're saying. In the beginning, she says when they're asking her, well,
I didn't say anything about thinking he did it before.
And my rationale is I just would have never thought
(12:08):
of my parents getting murdered, so I would have never
thought of my brother doing it. But now that they
have been murdered, I am thinking about I mean, she's
like trying to give a reason that she wouldn't have
immediately come to them with that conclusion, and how she
could have flipped so quickly.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
They're leading her a bit. At the beginning of this
second interview, they are setting her up with, well, you
didn't tell us before cuz you didn't really think about it,
but you went home, and what she's like, Well, I
went home and I thought about things. I did some
research on my brother. Yeah, I did some research. Okay,
Well tell us what you found. You know, like there's
(12:46):
a leading element.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
I didn't see it as leading as much as you're
putting out. Maybe it was. I wasn't thinking about that.
Feels like she's just got the whole plan and she
is arriving to be their ally and to be a cop.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
She's wanting to be a cop. It's almost like this
opportunity is a chance for her to prove herself, like,
look at all I've learned at college, I can do
this too. I'm going to be a helper in this situation.
(13:19):
So a day before Charlie came to law enforcement and
gave her new insights on her brother Brandon, Mike Etherington,
who is Norma Etherington's son, came in for his interview
with law enforcement. Now, just as a reminder to listeners,
Mike did speak to law enforcement on the phone, and
that is when he told investigators about MySpace and Brandon
(13:40):
saying he hated his parents.
Speaker 11 (13:42):
So this is the first time that I know of
that he came into the station and spoke on camera
with the investigators. They went through a lot, They covered
a lot of ground with Mike at that time. A
lot of it was about Brandon and Mike's relationship, with
Brandon growing up together, a lot about how their friendship
started to come apart and had a falling out. Mike
talked about how Brand had started to change, going from
(14:05):
the Shitkicker group blue jeans, cowboy boots, cowboy hats, to
Armani shirts and expensive clothes.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
He got fancy. He starts talking about how he was
modeling now and then he's got these fancy clothes and
he's really differentiating himself from his childhood friends.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Let's listen to a little bit of that clip.
Speaker 10 (14:26):
What Brand had against Joe, And that's the thing is
I've learned I've been having to put together thinking about it,
is that he has to have an enemy because all
he ever says to to his enemy, is how much
better Brandon and how much.
Speaker 7 (14:40):
How much better he is than the other person.
Speaker 10 (14:42):
Like Joe, he didn't have, you know, the parents that
would buy him all this stuff, you know, you know,
and stuff like that. So Brandon was always like, well know,
you're just poor, you're you know, you're poor, white trash
and you're fat and blah blah blah, you know.
Speaker 7 (14:54):
Stuff like that.
Speaker 10 (14:55):
And it was always, you know, something that Brandon had
to be better than the other person.
Speaker 7 (14:59):
You know, he had to have an enemy.
Speaker 10 (15:01):
And that's why it seemed that he was either against
Dustin and the day that they become friends, it was
against Joe.
Speaker 7 (15:07):
You see. It was back and forth, back and forth.
Speaker 10 (15:09):
And it was funny because me and this kid Alan
at school, we're just like, you know, it's so funny
that you and I stay out of all this crap
because you know, we've never been anybody's enemy. And so anyways,
back to Joe. The tables turned on Joe now and
they like, in class, we'd all have ad class.
Speaker 7 (15:23):
Together, me, Joe and Brandon.
Speaker 10 (15:25):
They stopped sitting together everything like that, and and just
you know a bunch of just trash being said and
Brandon started that's never now. See this is when never
brand had already started changing quite a bit, started wearing
the Cowgary year, started wearing all these preppy clothes, you know,
like Armandi and this and.
Speaker 7 (15:41):
That, and trying to look real good for the girls.
And we'd always just kind of.
Speaker 10 (15:45):
You know, give a little like, Brandon, what are you
wearing and stuff like that, I can't believe what you're
wearing stuff?
Speaker 7 (15:50):
And he's like, oh, yeah, well, all the girls like you.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
What do you think, Andrew, you were a teenage boy.
Speaker 8 (15:54):
Once jilted to teenage boyfriendships for sure.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
See.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
I mean he's saying Brandon's picking fights with them, and
then he's downplaying that they're making fun of Brandon's clothes.
Speaker 8 (16:06):
Yeah, it's pretty normal.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
It's totally normal and very petty. Is that enough of
a behavioral change that law enforcement can say, Wow, this
boy's at risk here for some violent behavior.
Speaker 8 (16:18):
I would say that if you're looking for a character flaw,
you're going to find it in a teenage boy in
high school. And they will fight and they will say
mean things to each other, and you know, we're kind
of discovering here, at least maybe from a one side
point of view that maybe Brandon wasn't a saint, and
(16:39):
maybe that's what I want to hear as an investigator
and is helpful to me to frame my picture of
Brandon as a suspect.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
The thing that got our attention is the gate he's
not who he seems is like the first thing that's
ever said day one to the police about Brandon, and
that becomes their only suspect, and that is scary.
Speaker 11 (17:01):
They asked Mike straight up, do you have a problem
with that? And he says, no, I don't have a
problem with that. I don't have a problem with gay people,
you know, And he.
Speaker 10 (17:08):
Was just that, you know, we're just kind of, you know, passing,
and we didn't like come up to him and talk
to him about it, but just you know, between me.
Speaker 7 (17:14):
And Joe and Perry would kind of be like, was
just really screwed up? Is he gay or something? Doing that?
Speaker 10 (17:19):
And and people we just kind of talk about, like,
you know, we don't think.
Speaker 7 (17:22):
We don't, you know, have any doubt he's going to
be gay once high school was over, you know, because
why would he having any to hide? So do you
have a problem with him if he's gay?
Speaker 9 (17:29):
No?
Speaker 7 (17:30):
That's what I said. I mean, I talked.
Speaker 10 (17:31):
I mean the kids that are argue, I mean, I
never had any problem with them.
Speaker 7 (17:36):
Know, the rule goes for me. If you're gay, you
state yourself. We talked, it's fine. You know. The kid Offen,
my junior years, sat behind me in physics class. He
you know, we took chat just fine.
Speaker 10 (17:46):
But whenever he started, you know, giving me food and
candy every day, and I started hearing from his friends
that were you know, his little girlfriends whatever, that he
had a little thing for me.
Speaker 7 (17:53):
It's kind of so, you know, I straight up told him.
I was just like, you know, dude, just keep your
visions on me.
Speaker 9 (17:58):
You know.
Speaker 7 (17:58):
I was just like, and I made it really hear
about my girlfriend stuff.
Speaker 10 (18:01):
I show the pictures of my girlfriend and tell them
about like a date we had to you know, the
previous evening.
Speaker 7 (18:05):
Well, but Brandon's got a girlfriend. Brand is a girlfriend.
Speaker 10 (18:09):
Now I've been doing research and on now not because
of the Brand issue, but because I in my you know, classes,
I have to do a speech on gay marriage, like
you know, opposing.
Speaker 7 (18:18):
It to debate speech. And I find out my.
Speaker 10 (18:20):
Partner's actually she's a lesbian. And I was because that's what.
I'm totally against gay marriage. It's just wrong, you know,
I said, it's you know, it's totally wrong. It's a
big sin and stuff I said. And she goes, well,
I'm totally for it, and I'm like, she said, along gay,
you know, I said, well, I said, no, offention.
Speaker 7 (18:34):
I don't have anything problem with you being gay.
Speaker 10 (18:35):
It's just if you're going to go around, you know,
flapping it in front of me or something like that,
it just makes me uncomfortable. I won't do anything I said,
So don't take anything that I say offensive.
Speaker 7 (18:44):
You know, it's a debate speech.
Speaker 10 (18:45):
There's going to be harsh words said, probably, so just
leave it at that. I said, I don't know probaly
gay people. I said, a friend of mine once he graduated,
he came out of his show.
Speaker 7 (18:53):
And stuff like that. And I said, you know, just
stuff like that. I said, there's a gay kid my
physics class all junior year.
Speaker 10 (18:59):
I talked to him every time I see him aout
Walmart because he worked at Walmart.
Speaker 7 (19:02):
And anyway, so Aliver.
Speaker 11 (19:05):
Probably gave people he's downplaying his own prejudices. But I
think the takeaway the investigators took from it is this
sort of falling out and the fights that Brandon was
having with his friends.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Let's talk about Mike Gatherington's second half of this interview,
because Dan he is the person that brings up this
whole MySpace situation, and it isn't until after Brandon's arrest
that law enforcement actually sits down with this kid and
digs into it.
Speaker 11 (19:35):
Mike initially gives them the information about MySpace. They immediately
look at the MySpace and don't see what supposedly there.
They don't see anything that says that Brandon wants to
see his parents dead. So there's some talk about was
that MySpace page changed, had Brandon gone in there afterwards
and changed it deleted any incriminating evidence. Now, definitely, they
(19:57):
show that Brandon had logged in, but when they went
back back to MySpace and said, can we check to
see what's been changed, they didn't find any evidence that
Brandon had changed this. So it turns out that when
they dug into this, they did not see that Brandon
was making these statements that he hated his parents.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Mike provided the MySpace log in of a friend so
that law enforcement could go log into MySpace and look
for themselves right, And they went to his page to
find out about this survey that Mike was referring to,
and it asks do you get along with your parents?
And Brandon's response was actually all the time in capital letters? Lol, No, really,
(20:39):
I love them.
Speaker 11 (20:40):
So when they bring Mike in they ask him about it.
They say, okay, so tell me again about this MySpace page.
And at this point Mike's like, well, supposedly, it said,
and they're like, wait a second, what do you mean supposedly?
I thought you said you saw it. He says, no,
I didn't see it. I was told by a good
friend of mine that she saw it. So now becomes
(21:00):
secondhand information.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Oh and the ranger starts getting so irate.
Speaker 7 (21:07):
Instead of water.
Speaker 4 (21:07):
I got him coming in brands Coke, his coaches.
Speaker 10 (21:10):
Are you no, I really am sorry about the whole dale.
Speaker 7 (21:14):
Well, that's a little josh, remember mine.
Speaker 4 (21:16):
Here's the thing though, that you got to understand, because
you're on the telephone and I was. I was in
the room on the speakerphone listening to you give out
that information, and that information was very matter of fact,
exactly firsthand knowledge, and that's not what you're telling me
right now, exactly and you have to understand that, you know,
(21:37):
documents were prepared that I swear to that this information came.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
Across to us.
Speaker 7 (21:44):
Yeah, you know, And I mean, there's nothing I can
do about that now, you know.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
I swore to the fact that that's what I believed
was true and correct. And I stand beside that because
at that time I believe that it was true and correct.
Speaker 7 (21:57):
You don't understand what kind of bind you.
Speaker 4 (22:01):
Know, that really puts you in now for providing that information.
I mean, I'm glad that we're getting this out of
the way now now it's but it's not this is.
Speaker 7 (22:11):
Not a good thing.
Speaker 4 (22:13):
Yeah, okay, and and it uh, I'm sorry, I'm giving
a little excited.
Speaker 10 (22:19):
It's I don't I mean, just telling that one now,
it's like, you know, I thought that as giving it
to you, I was, I was, like, you know, she
told me that months ago, and I even recall her
told me because that's what stuck in my mind.
Speaker 7 (22:32):
And that's one of the first thing that triggered in
my mind, is.
Speaker 10 (22:34):
What she'd read off to me or months ago whenever
the first thing I heard of his parents were killed
and where he was that day, you know, where he
was supposed to where you know, everything was falling to place.
I'm like, holy crap, I said, remember this, and then
like I was just ever putting everything together and so
like giving it to y'all.
Speaker 7 (22:51):
It's like I figured that, you know, I didn't think that,
but I mean, that's information that's important.
Speaker 10 (22:56):
I said to you, as possibility is like whether I
had read it or not, even if she told me
that she read.
Speaker 7 (23:04):
That's not how it was. That's not how it was
reported to us. Exactly it was reported to us.
Speaker 4 (23:08):
As you know, this is a factual thing.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
I know for a.
Speaker 4 (23:13):
Fact that that's that the website and you didn't know
what the website was, but I've seen it on the
website that it said.
Speaker 7 (23:20):
This, and that's what would use.
Speaker 4 (23:22):
Then we go back up on the website and actually
find a website, pull up the profile and it says
do you get along with your parents? And it said
something like you know, yes, yes, really I love them, Okay,
And then we get a call we didn't make contact
with you, You make contact with us saying that's been changed.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
That has been changed.
Speaker 10 (23:46):
That's whenever I got on the website and I was like,
it's not on there. I talked to the hole and
she goes, no, she goes, either it's been changed or
it's been misread.
Speaker 7 (23:54):
She goes, I must have just misread it. Then, and
I was like Nicole, and I was like, I told
them that.
Speaker 4 (23:58):
All right, Mike, it would have been a whole lot
better if we had him in contacted and told he
it was misread.
Speaker 7 (24:03):
That's just a miss, you know. But the fact that
it was that was changed. Yeah, that was changed on
that website.
Speaker 10 (24:10):
And for all I know, she may have read it
for the right way and it was changed.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
He's just been busted for lying. They're tiptoeing around it,
but he basically lied. And then he's saying, oh, well,
I just didn't say And the cop is so mad.
You have to know. Racher Collins visually in this is
so agitated. You can hear him bang on the table.
He takes his big ten gallon cowboy hat off and
on again. At one point he says, I'm going to
(24:37):
just need to leave the room for a minute. I'm
so upset about need.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
To regain my composer, I need.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
To regain my composure. He is very agitated. He's also
covering his own ass because he's saying, you know, this
looks really bad for you. I based all this on
what you said, and I stand by that. He's not saying,
how f did I not go and make sure what
you were saying.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Was true in the time.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
And it sounds from it too, like it's Mike who said, oh,
he changed it, when they probably came back and said
we're not finding it. Why is Mike suddenly saying, oh,
he must have changed it.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
There were time stamps all over Brandon's MySpace page where
you could see him logging in and logging off, and
my Space could tell whether or not any of his
posts had been edited, and my Space said nothing was edited.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
And then he's trying to say it was misread. I mean,
you can't misread really, I love them Loel. You can't
misread that into f and hate my parents. There's not
a way to misread that. But then he comes up
even while being accused of lying.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
They absolutely should have done this before they arrested Brandon.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
I want to say something too quickly to go back
to Bonnie saying something about this arrest. She said they
just wanted to make an arrest because it looked bad
and people were scared, and I'm sure thought they had
the right guy. But the rush to the arrest without
even verifying one of the main things that you're using
as probable cause rush. I mean, clearly the pressure is
(26:02):
on these nice couple have been murdered in their home,
in a quiet, safe place, and we need somebody behind bars,
We need action, we need to show that we know
what's happening. That's a lot of pressure.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
It's a ton and.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
The rush it feels rushed. It does feel rushed.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
So here's my question for you. Then, had this interview
with Mike Etherington happened before the arrest warrant, Andrew, do
you think they would have moved forward with the arrest
warrant learning everything they learned in this interview.
Speaker 8 (26:33):
I don't believe they would have, or they could have.
I mean, how can they there's nothing you know. This
is akin to saying I have intent to kill my parents.
I wish they were dead. And without that, what evidence
do we have that he intended to kill his parents?
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Right access to a missing gun is only important when
you don't have the gun and you don't have any
proof that he's the one who took it because he
said I wish my parents were dead.
Speaker 8 (27:05):
I interpret Colin's excitement at the beginning there and as
a sort of a cya moment. Cover your asses. My
high school principal used to say, Andrew, cover your ass.
Remember that was actually the last thing he told me
every time I saw it.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Colin certainly realized he didn't cover his ass as far
as the my space. So he's arrested and then they
immediately find out it's not true, which means they rushed
it and bungled it. They're protecting themselves, and as soon
as he's arrested, then everyone's looking at him as for
sure the guy his own sister leading that charge.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
Okay, so law enforcement doesn't have the evidence from my
space of Brandon saying that he hated his parents. So
what are some of the motives they float as to
why Brandon would kill them?
Speaker 11 (28:08):
They kind of had a hodgepodge of different theories of
why Brandon might have killed his parents. The first one
in the primary one was that Brandon had just come
out to his parents and told them that he was gay,
and that there may have been some sort of conflict
between him and his parents about that.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
We know from Dennis's sister Cathy, who was interviewed after
Brandon's arrest, that she knew that Brandon had come out
to his dad and that his dad didn't have a
problem with it and wasn't going to cut him off.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
And also that Dennis had a best friend from college
who was a gay man, not necessarily during college, but
was living as an out gay man at that time.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
So that motive is thin. Now do you think that
that is law enforcement assigning their own feelings as a
parent to the situation. It's like they theorize, well in
my church, in my family, I would be upset about this.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
No one made a very clear statement about how there
was an assumption made by multiple law enforcement that were
stated out loud that the parents wouldn't have approved of
his lifestyle.
Speaker 12 (29:24):
You know, in this case at all, the evidence is
kind of overwhelmingly pointing to one individual, an individual being Brandon,
the son of the victim, of the victims, He had
access to a weapon, He was the last one to
see mom and dad alive. He had issues that he
(29:47):
was trying to hide from mom and dad. He was
afraid that they were going to cut off his college
money if they found out what he was doing Dad
would certainly not agree with his lifestyles due to the
fact that they were extremely religious. Uh, the just everything
(30:13):
overwhelmingly points to one individual and one individual only when
you look at everything.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
And this was a team of investigators working on this is.
Speaker 12 (30:24):
Many many hours of investigation, many many hours of crime
scene processing. The only thing we could find, the only
individual who had opportunity, motive and a reason to do this,
which would be motive, was Brandon.
Speaker 13 (30:47):
And tell me about you were saying his father most
certainly wouldn't have proved to his life. So can you
tell me a little bit about that? I meanweciness.
Speaker 12 (30:58):
It's basically all on them that they were religious.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
I don't want to generalize, but I mean it.
Speaker 12 (31:04):
You know, it's kind of touchy subject.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
I know that's what I'm sort of wondering.
Speaker 13 (31:08):
But it certainly back in two thousand and five, it
would it wouldn't have been I mean it was what
was the attitude like on if somebody came out side
a day it's not in this rural county.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
I mean, can you just talk them a little bit
about that?
Speaker 12 (31:19):
Back in two thousand and five when this crime occurred,
coming out is gay or living alternate lifestyles in this
area of the country was not widely accepted or tolerated.
For lack of a better term, that would be something
that would break up families. Calls trouble could be motive
(31:43):
for even murder, and in this case, I believe it was.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
It has been made clear to us that in that
community and in that area of the world, especially at
that time, homosexuality was considered a sin. They run into
that very issue when they're getting ready for with jury selection, and.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
We will definitely dive into that more in upcoming episodes.
Speaker 8 (32:05):
I could see that as a projection of the culture
that they could. You know that law enforcement could think
of it as an angry event full of conflict where
the parents reject Brandon. Certainly, However, I think it's a
big leap to go from anger and rejection to murderous rage.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Like it's not just bang bang, my parents are gone.
It's bang bang bang bang bang stab stab stab stabs.
I mean, it is gruesome and aggressive.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
And also it's not a spontaneous event. It's not like
Brandon had a gun. There's no account that Brandon had
a gun. His parents had a gun.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
But that's not the murder weapon.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
It's not the murder weapon.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
So what we gather from that is the only way
this crime could have been committed is with premeditation. Right,
someone would have had to go out and get a gun.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
Well, if the person who did it isn't Brandon, they
may have had the gun. But if it was Brandon,
he would have had to premeditate it.
Speaker 11 (33:04):
Okay, but you would have had to bring a large gun,
a large pistol, and a knife with you to commit
this crime, right, like post saying, it's not a spontaneous
act of anger. You know for sure you bring these
weapons with you. And there's no indication that Brandon was
walking around with a large gun on his side.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Right, But the point being, what's the evidence. The evidence
is proximity. It's circumstantial evidence based on proximity. And then
also the other big evidence that they talk about in
all those interviews and that everybody talks about is that
he's leading a double life. He's lying about who he
is in ways that the assumption is made.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
What were some of the other motives.
Speaker 11 (33:43):
One of them was that Brandon was flunking out of school.
This was his first semester at Abilene Christian university and
he had been accepted to the college on academic probation,
meaning that he had to pass his classes to be
able to continue to attend. And at this point, Brandon
got to school and was not doing that well in
(34:04):
his classes. He didn't attend, he started skipping classes and
wasn't doing well. And there are some accounts where Brandon's
parents were saying, you know, we will pay for you
for one semester, but you need to prove yourself and
if you're not going to then we're going to no
longer pay for you to go to school. So that's
one of the motives that law enforcement said was that
(34:26):
Brandon's parents were going to cut him off and he
would have to move back home. And there were a
couple different accounts where Brandon didn't like his parent's new house.
He kind of felt, you know that this is a
double wide and it seems a little low brow for him,
and he didn't like staying there.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
Right.
Speaker 11 (34:43):
This is actually part of what the argument was that
if his parents cut him off, he would have to
move back home and he did not want to do that.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
What's interesting about that theory to me is that if
Brandon's being caught off financially and killing his parents is
going to the problem for him, is he anticipating some
sort of payout, because the entire reason the family was
downsizing to this smaller house in Royce City is that
(35:12):
they had about three hundred thousand dollars in debt and
they were really trying to be smart and get a
much smaller house, less materials, you know, like fewer cars,
fewer barns, fewer all.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Of that cut their cost of living.
Speaker 11 (35:29):
Brandon himself had credit card debt that he had been
sort of living beyond his means. Several people had said
that Brandon liked to project that he was wealthy, like
he liked to walk around with the fancy clothes and
to sort of have an air about him as coming
from money, right, So he spent a lot of money
and he himself was in debt and that's you know.
They argue that the same financial mode of tying into it.
(35:52):
There was a life insurance policy. So there is some
discussion that maybe he could have gotten a life insurance payout,
but whatever it was, I don't think it was terribly significant.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
So in summary, law enforcement believes that Brandon killed his
parents because he was gay and his parents wouldn't approve
of his lifestyle, which we know isn't true based on
what Aunt Cathy shared in her interview with law enforcement.
There's also the idea that he was flunking out of school,
as well as a financial motive that his parents were
(36:22):
either going to cut him off or that he had
debt and could possibly receive some money after his parent's death. Now,
what I think is important is that there were many
times for law enforcement to examine other options, just to
look and see if there was anyone else with a
possible motive, But instead they zeroed in and they remained
(36:42):
focused on Brandon. And it isn't until nearly two years
after the death of Denis Norma that the trial is
scheduled to begin. We will cover that on our next episode.
That's it for this week's episode of True Crime Story.
It couldn't happen here, but be sure to join us
(37:04):
next week as we dive deeper into the Brandon Woodriff case.
Speaker 14 (37:08):
This is the first time they were caught, and it
was the first time I think, in Texas that any
DA's office had been actually found to violate the sixth Amendment.
Even the most guilty. Human being on earth has a
right to confer in confidence with their attorney and not
have the state hovering over and listening in on it.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Join us next week as we continue to roll up
our sleeves and dig in. Thank you so much for
joining us. If you haven't watched Sundance TV's True Crime
Story It Couldn't Happen Here, you can catch all of
our episodes streaming on AMC Plus. For more information about
this and other cases we've covered, follow at ice HH
(37:55):
stories on Instagram. True Crime Story It Couldn't Happen Here
was produced by Mischief Farm in association with Bungalow Media
and Entertainment, Authentic Management Productions, and Figdonia in partnership with
Sundance TV. Executive producers are me Hillary Burton, Morgan Liz Deccessor,
(38:15):
Robert Friedman, Mike Powers, and Meg Mortimer. Producers are Maggie
Robinson Katz and Libby Siegel. Our audio engineer is Brendan Dalton,
with original music by Philip Radiotis. We want to say
a special thank you to everyone who participated, but especially
the families impacted by our cases.
Hi guys, it's Hillary here. Just a quick note. This
series does deal with a lot of tough subject matter
that may be difficult for some listeners, so please keep
this in mind when and where you choose to listen
to these episodes. Ranger Collins is irate. He slams his
(00:22):
hands down on the table in the cramped, windowless interrogation
room somewhere just outside of Dallas. Mike Etherington, a former
friend of Brandon Woodruff and fellowshitkicker, may have given him
inaccurate information and this could not only compromise Ranger Collins's reputation,
but put the whole investigation in jeopardy. Last episode, we
(00:44):
dove into the timeline of Brandon's whereabouts the night his
parents were murdered. In this episode, we'll dive into Charla's
second interview with law enforcement, as well as a surprising
interview with Mike Etherington. I'm Hillary Burton Morgan and this
is true crime story. It couldn't happen here. Welcome back
(01:16):
to another episode of It Couldn't Happen Here. You guys
know the crew by now I am with Dan Hoe
and Andrew. You guys, Charla visits Ranger Collins for another interview.
How did that all happen?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
She went to visit Brandon after he's been arrested in
the jail and then comes down voluntarily to speak with
the ranger and the police about Brandon.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Okay, Now, we.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
Have already done a very extensive interview with you, and
I think it lasted two and a half three hours
or something, okay, And I know that we got lots
of lots of information from you. Okay, But again, you
contacted us and said that there were some other stuff
that you wanted to tell us that you kind of
(02:03):
thought was maybe strange or something that your brother was doing.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
And let me ask you, do you suspect your brother?
Speaker 5 (02:13):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (02:14):
Okay, And it's because of some of the things you
weren't withholding anything from us the other day. You just
really didn't. It wasn't as suspicious to you at that time.
Speaker 5 (02:23):
No, it was no, I mean it wasn't.
Speaker 6 (02:31):
Good, all right, they it wasn't just visically or whenever
they brought my brother back here. My aunt said, Charlotte,
do you think that he could have done? And I said,
I would like to tell you now, but if you
asked me if my parents would have been murdered.
Speaker 5 (02:53):
I would have told her now, and that's just you.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
You would have told her, Yeah, I'm going to have
told you no, oh no, that he could.
Speaker 7 (03:01):
Well.
Speaker 5 (03:01):
If you asked me a month ago, are your parents
gonna be murdered?
Speaker 7 (03:04):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (03:05):
You were said no.
Speaker 5 (03:07):
Okay, So if you're asking me if my brother would
have done it, I.
Speaker 7 (03:10):
Would have normally said no, sure, you.
Speaker 6 (03:13):
Know, I mean, but obviously my parents are murdered, So
I mean, things are happening that I would have normally
guess no, you know, normally.
Speaker 5 (03:23):
Naturally would not happened.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
She's only just saying the behavior that I wasn't thinking
was bad now I'm thinking it's bad because everything's changed.
But she came down there with something to say. I mean,
she runs down to the police after she's confronted her brother.
It sounds like she's saying she decided he has done
it before she went up and confronted him. It's really weird.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Charla is playing detective. She has taken it upon herself
to go visit her brother in jail, not.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
To commiserate or give him support, but to confront him.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
She has apparently looked at a webs sight and seen
pictures of him with a firefighter with other gay men.
So she's done some investigative work. I don't know if
someone else showed it to her or she found it
on her own, but she confronts her brother with that.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
You don't want to.
Speaker 5 (04:14):
I said, Brandon, are you gay? He said no. I
said are you gay?
Speaker 7 (04:21):
And he said no.
Speaker 6 (04:23):
Well, honey, there's this website that I looked at and
who was this firefighter?
Speaker 5 (04:32):
Because y'all have an awful good time. He wants to
make sure you had fun last.
Speaker 6 (04:36):
Weekend and another weekend and uh, he said, that's my.
Speaker 5 (04:40):
Friend from Florida. He lives in Florida.
Speaker 6 (04:43):
I said, okay, said there's a lot of guys on there, Brandon,
a lot of guys. He's well, I have a lot
of gay friends. I was like, well, that's great, that's
good for you. Who's Alex? No, I said no, before that,
before I've said who's Alex?
Speaker 7 (05:01):
I said.
Speaker 6 (05:01):
Thing is, they're keying in on a lot of weird things,
a lot of weird things, and a lot of people
are saying you're gay.
Speaker 5 (05:08):
And if you lie, I know the VEASKI if you're gay?
Speaker 6 (05:12):
If you lie about little things, Brandon even if you
think they're upsetting about family.
Speaker 5 (05:16):
If you lie about little things.
Speaker 6 (05:19):
But you're telling the truth about the big things, they're
going to know you're a liar and they're not going.
Speaker 5 (05:23):
To believe you.
Speaker 6 (05:25):
I said, so you need to fly out tell them
the truth about everything. And he's like, I'm not good.
I'm not gay, I said, Brandon, who's Alex. Well, Alex
is my best friend. I said to Brandon, who is Alex.
He's like, Alex is gay, But I'm not gay.
Speaker 5 (05:42):
I said, And I just stared.
Speaker 6 (05:45):
At him, and I was like, well, you need to
tell the truth.
Speaker 5 (05:51):
Honestly, you need to tell the truth, because.
Speaker 6 (05:57):
You know, if you lie about these little bitty things,
then if you tell the truth about the big thing
they've already wanted, he is a liar and you're a
liar to them, and they don't care.
Speaker 5 (06:11):
And I said, Brain, I'm scared for you. They have
evidence against you, and you're screwed.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
You have have no doubt in my mind that.
Speaker 5 (06:21):
You did it.
Speaker 4 (06:23):
You told your brother that that there's no doubt in
your mind that he did it or you had.
Speaker 7 (06:27):
Something to do with it.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
God, I can't imagine for him being arrested for your parents,
arrested for your parents' murder, and then being outed in
this way. You know, people's coming out stories can be really, really,
really traumatic, and to be outed in this way, have
it on tape, have it be with law enforcement. Like
(06:49):
all of these factors, we can't downplay. That is a
horror show. Texas in two thousand and five is a
life for death situation, and here she is gathering evidence
against her brother and laughing as she relays it. So
I can't make a character judgment on that. All I
can say is that it is heavy.
Speaker 8 (07:11):
In this interview, Actually, Charla is the one that presents
the moral argument as to why Brandon is guilty.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Yeah, she lays out the map.
Speaker 8 (07:21):
The map is he's gay, he's hiding it, he's lying
about it. And if you can lie about this thing
about your life, then certainly you must be lying about
the big thing, which is murdering your parents.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Why is that tagline that she gives in this interview
so important?
Speaker 8 (07:38):
I think she I mean, as far as we know,
this is the first time we actually hear this tagline.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
But we hear it again and again. I mean, she
says it this first time, and then later we even
hear Ranger Collins use this line in another interview, so
it's almost as if Charla provided the log line for
the case against brand.
Speaker 8 (08:00):
Okay, that's what he told me.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
Well, and then now that's something too, because he's he's
telling us that now I'm straight, I've got a girlfriend
and all that.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
But we're hearing from friends you know that he is gay.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
Which I mean, we don't care one way or another,
but I mean, if you're gonna lie about something little
like that, then you know, are you gonna lie.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
About something big?
Speaker 4 (08:20):
I mean, if you can lie something about your sexual orientation,
then you ought to be able to lie about something big.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
But again, let's go back after the bodies are discovered.
It's Norma and Mike Etherington who are saying you need
to look at Brandon because he's not who he seems,
and that is already saying he's leading a double life.
So there's something suspicious and wrong about him. He's a liar.
I mean, if that's his sister's response.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Of course he kept it secret. We found a video
of Charla from two thousand and four on the internet
from college, and we don't know much about her. Obviously,
her family is protective of her. She's a mother. Now
she's moved on. I can't imagine what it's like to
lose your entire family, your parents and your sibling. But
in this interview, Charlotte talks about her attraction to law enforcement.
Speaker 5 (09:11):
Welcome to this edition of the Essay Report. I'm Casey.
Speaker 9 (09:14):
Body with me today is Charlie Woodrow, a co founder
of Swick.
Speaker 5 (09:19):
Charlotte.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Thank you for being with us today.
Speaker 9 (09:21):
Charlie, what is.
Speaker 5 (09:22):
Your major here at Essay you.
Speaker 9 (09:24):
I'm currently a criminal justice major, and I chose this
major because ever since I was young, I imagine being a cop.
And I don't know if it's a fascination with guns
or if it was the authority or you know, just
the power. It's like, yeah, but I really want to
have a chance to get back to the community and
(09:44):
offer a community a feel of protection and security where
they live. This university offers now is an advanced topic,
and they have a class called Victimology that gets really
in depth with thevictims and after they're dead and going
through like that.
Speaker 10 (10:05):
Have you taken that question?
Speaker 5 (10:06):
No, I haven't.
Speaker 9 (10:07):
I'm very excited that I'm going to take it in
this spring along with a class called corrections.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
So again, this was about a year before the murders
of Dennis and Norma Woodruff. And what I find interesting
is that it almost seems like Charla is taking what
she learned in this class, you know, something she says
she's been interested in since she was a child, and
she's applying it to her own family in this line
of investigation that she's conducting against her own brother.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Yeah, she's jumping in with the cops against family, which
is an unusual thing to do.
Speaker 11 (10:40):
I mean, I think one thing to think about and
lettas she'd mentioned, the course that she was excited about
was victimology, right, and in this case of she's a
victim her parents were murdered, you know, she's a survivor
of a murder, right, And I think she's identifying as
a victim in this case. And I think once the
seed is planted that her brother may have killed her parents,
(11:02):
she's going to be angry with him, right, I mean,
if she really thinks that might be the case, you.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Know, Right, Well, her first interview is about how angry
she is at her parents, and her second interview less
than a week later, you can see how angry she
is about her brother.
Speaker 11 (11:16):
Yeah, I don't think, but I don't think there was
anything even in the first interview that she said that
she didn't love her parents or that she wasn't you
know what I mean, it was like she wanted them
dead in any way.
Speaker 8 (11:25):
I think Dan's giving her credit for being thoughtful. She's
being thoughtful in a way that we don't expect, and
perhaps it's counter to sort of our thinking as well.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
I mean, thoughtful would be forensic evidence, right, not your
brother's sexual orientation.
Speaker 8 (11:41):
I mean, you're saying that she's changed position, and she
seems different when she comes in for the second interview.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Now I'm saying she seems the same. She seems angry
both times at targets that are kind of unusual in
the circumstances. And I mean, she's already thought about what
you're saying. In the beginning, she says when they're asking her, well,
I didn't say anything about thinking he did it before.
And my rationale is I just would have never thought
(12:08):
of my parents getting murdered, so I would have never
thought of my brother doing it. But now that they
have been murdered, I am thinking about I mean, she's
like trying to give a reason that she wouldn't have
immediately come to them with that conclusion, and how she
could have flipped so quickly.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
They're leading her a bit. At the beginning of this
second interview, they are setting her up with, well, you
didn't tell us before cuz you didn't really think about it,
but you went home, and what she's like, Well, I
went home and I thought about things. I did some
research on my brother. Yeah, I did some research. Okay,
Well tell us what you found. You know, like there's
(12:46):
a leading element.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
I didn't see it as leading as much as you're
putting out. Maybe it was. I wasn't thinking about that.
Feels like she's just got the whole plan and she
is arriving to be their ally and to be a cop.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
She's wanting to be a cop. It's almost like this
opportunity is a chance for her to prove herself, like,
look at all I've learned at college, I can do
this too. I'm going to be a helper in this situation.
(13:19):
So a day before Charlie came to law enforcement and
gave her new insights on her brother Brandon, Mike Etherington,
who is Norma Etherington's son, came in for his interview
with law enforcement. Now, just as a reminder to listeners,
Mike did speak to law enforcement on the phone, and
that is when he told investigators about MySpace and Brandon
(13:40):
saying he hated his parents.
Speaker 11 (13:42):
So this is the first time that I know of
that he came into the station and spoke on camera
with the investigators. They went through a lot, They covered
a lot of ground with Mike at that time. A
lot of it was about Brandon and Mike's relationship, with
Brandon growing up together, a lot about how their friendship
started to come apart and had a falling out. Mike
talked about how Brand had started to change, going from
(14:05):
the Shitkicker group blue jeans, cowboy boots, cowboy hats, to
Armani shirts and expensive clothes.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
He got fancy. He starts talking about how he was
modeling now and then he's got these fancy clothes and
he's really differentiating himself from his childhood friends.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Let's listen to a little bit of that clip.
Speaker 10 (14:26):
What Brand had against Joe, And that's the thing is
I've learned I've been having to put together thinking about it,
is that he has to have an enemy because all
he ever says to to his enemy, is how much
better Brandon and how much.
Speaker 7 (14:40):
How much better he is than the other person.
Speaker 10 (14:42):
Like Joe, he didn't have, you know, the parents that
would buy him all this stuff, you know, you know,
and stuff like that. So Brandon was always like, well know,
you're just poor, you're you know, you're poor, white trash
and you're fat and blah blah blah, you know.
Speaker 7 (14:54):
Stuff like that.
Speaker 10 (14:55):
And it was always, you know, something that Brandon had
to be better than the other person.
Speaker 7 (14:59):
You know, he had to have an enemy.
Speaker 10 (15:01):
And that's why it seemed that he was either against
Dustin and the day that they become friends, it was
against Joe.
Speaker 7 (15:07):
You see. It was back and forth, back and forth.
Speaker 10 (15:09):
And it was funny because me and this kid Alan
at school, we're just like, you know, it's so funny
that you and I stay out of all this crap
because you know, we've never been anybody's enemy. And so anyways,
back to Joe. The tables turned on Joe now and
they like, in class, we'd all have ad class.
Speaker 7 (15:23):
Together, me, Joe and Brandon.
Speaker 10 (15:25):
They stopped sitting together everything like that, and and just
you know a bunch of just trash being said and
Brandon started that's never now. See this is when never
brand had already started changing quite a bit, started wearing
the Cowgary year, started wearing all these preppy clothes, you know,
like Armandi and this and.
Speaker 7 (15:41):
That, and trying to look real good for the girls.
And we'd always just kind of.
Speaker 10 (15:45):
You know, give a little like, Brandon, what are you
wearing and stuff like that, I can't believe what you're
wearing stuff?
Speaker 7 (15:50):
And he's like, oh, yeah, well, all the girls like you.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
What do you think, Andrew, you were a teenage boy.
Speaker 8 (15:54):
Once jilted to teenage boyfriendships for sure.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
See.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
I mean he's saying Brandon's picking fights with them, and
then he's downplaying that they're making fun of Brandon's clothes.
Speaker 8 (16:06):
Yeah, it's pretty normal.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
It's totally normal and very petty. Is that enough of
a behavioral change that law enforcement can say, Wow, this
boy's at risk here for some violent behavior.
Speaker 8 (16:18):
I would say that if you're looking for a character flaw,
you're going to find it in a teenage boy in
high school. And they will fight and they will say
mean things to each other, and you know, we're kind
of discovering here, at least maybe from a one side
point of view that maybe Brandon wasn't a saint, and
(16:39):
maybe that's what I want to hear as an investigator
and is helpful to me to frame my picture of
Brandon as a suspect.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
The thing that got our attention is the gate he's
not who he seems is like the first thing that's
ever said day one to the police about Brandon, and
that becomes their only suspect, and that is scary.
Speaker 11 (17:01):
They asked Mike straight up, do you have a problem
with that? And he says, no, I don't have a
problem with that. I don't have a problem with gay people,
you know, And he.
Speaker 10 (17:08):
Was just that, you know, we're just kind of, you know, passing,
and we didn't like come up to him and talk
to him about it, but just you know, between me.
Speaker 7 (17:14):
And Joe and Perry would kind of be like, was
just really screwed up? Is he gay or something? Doing that?
Speaker 10 (17:19):
And and people we just kind of talk about, like,
you know, we don't think.
Speaker 7 (17:22):
We don't, you know, have any doubt he's going to
be gay once high school was over, you know, because
why would he having any to hide? So do you
have a problem with him if he's gay?
Speaker 9 (17:29):
No?
Speaker 7 (17:30):
That's what I said. I mean, I talked.
Speaker 10 (17:31):
I mean the kids that are argue, I mean, I
never had any problem with them.
Speaker 7 (17:36):
Know, the rule goes for me. If you're gay, you
state yourself. We talked, it's fine. You know. The kid Offen,
my junior years, sat behind me in physics class. He
you know, we took chat just fine.
Speaker 10 (17:46):
But whenever he started, you know, giving me food and
candy every day, and I started hearing from his friends
that were you know, his little girlfriends whatever, that he
had a little thing for me.
Speaker 7 (17:53):
It's kind of so, you know, I straight up told him.
I was just like, you know, dude, just keep your
visions on me.
Speaker 9 (17:58):
You know.
Speaker 7 (17:58):
I was just like, and I made it really hear
about my girlfriend stuff.
Speaker 10 (18:01):
I show the pictures of my girlfriend and tell them
about like a date we had to you know, the
previous evening.
Speaker 7 (18:05):
Well, but Brandon's got a girlfriend. Brand is a girlfriend.
Speaker 10 (18:09):
Now I've been doing research and on now not because
of the Brand issue, but because I in my you know, classes,
I have to do a speech on gay marriage, like
you know, opposing.
Speaker 7 (18:18):
It to debate speech. And I find out my.
Speaker 10 (18:20):
Partner's actually she's a lesbian. And I was because that's what.
I'm totally against gay marriage. It's just wrong, you know,
I said, it's you know, it's totally wrong. It's a
big sin and stuff I said. And she goes, well,
I'm totally for it, and I'm like, she said, along gay,
you know, I said, well, I said, no, offention.
Speaker 7 (18:34):
I don't have anything problem with you being gay.
Speaker 10 (18:35):
It's just if you're going to go around, you know,
flapping it in front of me or something like that,
it just makes me uncomfortable. I won't do anything I said,
So don't take anything that I say offensive.
Speaker 7 (18:44):
You know, it's a debate speech.
Speaker 10 (18:45):
There's going to be harsh words said, probably, so just
leave it at that. I said, I don't know probaly
gay people. I said, a friend of mine once he graduated,
he came out of his show.
Speaker 7 (18:53):
And stuff like that. And I said, you know, just
stuff like that. I said, there's a gay kid my
physics class all junior year.
Speaker 10 (18:59):
I talked to him every time I see him aout
Walmart because he worked at Walmart.
Speaker 7 (19:02):
And anyway, so Aliver.
Speaker 11 (19:05):
Probably gave people he's downplaying his own prejudices. But I
think the takeaway the investigators took from it is this
sort of falling out and the fights that Brandon was
having with his friends.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Let's talk about Mike Gatherington's second half of this interview,
because Dan he is the person that brings up this
whole MySpace situation, and it isn't until after Brandon's arrest
that law enforcement actually sits down with this kid and
digs into it.
Speaker 11 (19:35):
Mike initially gives them the information about MySpace. They immediately
look at the MySpace and don't see what supposedly there.
They don't see anything that says that Brandon wants to
see his parents dead. So there's some talk about was
that MySpace page changed, had Brandon gone in there afterwards
and changed it deleted any incriminating evidence. Now, definitely, they
(19:57):
show that Brandon had logged in, but when they went
back back to MySpace and said, can we check to
see what's been changed, they didn't find any evidence that
Brandon had changed this. So it turns out that when
they dug into this, they did not see that Brandon
was making these statements that he hated his parents.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Mike provided the MySpace log in of a friend so
that law enforcement could go log into MySpace and look
for themselves right, And they went to his page to
find out about this survey that Mike was referring to,
and it asks do you get along with your parents?
And Brandon's response was actually all the time in capital letters? Lol, No, really,
(20:39):
I love them.
Speaker 11 (20:40):
So when they bring Mike in they ask him about it.
They say, okay, so tell me again about this MySpace page.
And at this point Mike's like, well, supposedly, it said,
and they're like, wait a second, what do you mean supposedly?
I thought you said you saw it. He says, no,
I didn't see it. I was told by a good
friend of mine that she saw it. So now becomes
(21:00):
secondhand information.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Oh and the ranger starts getting so irate.
Speaker 7 (21:07):
Instead of water.
Speaker 4 (21:07):
I got him coming in brands Coke, his coaches.
Speaker 10 (21:10):
Are you no, I really am sorry about the whole dale.
Speaker 7 (21:14):
Well, that's a little josh, remember mine.
Speaker 4 (21:16):
Here's the thing though, that you got to understand, because
you're on the telephone and I was. I was in
the room on the speakerphone listening to you give out
that information, and that information was very matter of fact,
exactly firsthand knowledge, and that's not what you're telling me
right now, exactly and you have to understand that, you know,
(21:37):
documents were prepared that I swear to that this information came.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
Across to us.
Speaker 7 (21:44):
Yeah, you know, And I mean, there's nothing I can
do about that now, you know.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
I swore to the fact that that's what I believed
was true and correct. And I stand beside that because
at that time I believe that it was true and correct.
Speaker 7 (21:57):
You don't understand what kind of bind you.
Speaker 4 (22:01):
Know, that really puts you in now for providing that information.
I mean, I'm glad that we're getting this out of
the way now now it's but it's not this is.
Speaker 7 (22:11):
Not a good thing.
Speaker 4 (22:13):
Yeah, okay, and and it uh, I'm sorry, I'm giving
a little excited.
Speaker 10 (22:19):
It's I don't I mean, just telling that one now,
it's like, you know, I thought that as giving it
to you, I was, I was, like, you know, she
told me that months ago, and I even recall her
told me because that's what stuck in my mind.
Speaker 7 (22:32):
And that's one of the first thing that triggered in
my mind, is.
Speaker 10 (22:34):
What she'd read off to me or months ago whenever
the first thing I heard of his parents were killed
and where he was that day, you know, where he
was supposed to where you know, everything was falling to place.
I'm like, holy crap, I said, remember this, and then
like I was just ever putting everything together and so
like giving it to y'all.
Speaker 7 (22:51):
It's like I figured that, you know, I didn't think that,
but I mean, that's information that's important.
Speaker 10 (22:56):
I said to you, as possibility is like whether I
had read it or not, even if she told me
that she read.
Speaker 7 (23:04):
That's not how it was. That's not how it was
reported to us. Exactly it was reported to us.
Speaker 4 (23:08):
As you know, this is a factual thing.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
I know for a.
Speaker 4 (23:13):
Fact that that's that the website and you didn't know
what the website was, but I've seen it on the
website that it said.
Speaker 7 (23:20):
This, and that's what would use.
Speaker 4 (23:22):
Then we go back up on the website and actually
find a website, pull up the profile and it says
do you get along with your parents? And it said
something like you know, yes, yes, really I love them, Okay,
And then we get a call we didn't make contact
with you, You make contact with us saying that's been changed.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
That has been changed.
Speaker 10 (23:46):
That's whenever I got on the website and I was like,
it's not on there. I talked to the hole and
she goes, no, she goes, either it's been changed or
it's been misread.
Speaker 7 (23:54):
She goes, I must have just misread it. Then, and
I was like Nicole, and I was like, I told
them that.
Speaker 4 (23:58):
All right, Mike, it would have been a whole lot
better if we had him in contacted and told he
it was misread.
Speaker 7 (24:03):
That's just a miss, you know. But the fact that
it was that was changed. Yeah, that was changed on
that website.
Speaker 10 (24:10):
And for all I know, she may have read it
for the right way and it was changed.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
He's just been busted for lying. They're tiptoeing around it,
but he basically lied. And then he's saying, oh, well,
I just didn't say And the cop is so mad.
You have to know. Racher Collins visually in this is
so agitated. You can hear him bang on the table.
He takes his big ten gallon cowboy hat off and
on again. At one point he says, I'm going to
(24:37):
just need to leave the room for a minute. I'm
so upset about need.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
To regain my composer, I need.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
To regain my composure. He is very agitated. He's also
covering his own ass because he's saying, you know, this
looks really bad for you. I based all this on
what you said, and I stand by that. He's not saying,
how f did I not go and make sure what
you were saying.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Was true in the time.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
And it sounds from it too, like it's Mike who said, oh,
he changed it, when they probably came back and said
we're not finding it. Why is Mike suddenly saying, oh,
he must have changed it.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
There were time stamps all over Brandon's MySpace page where
you could see him logging in and logging off, and
my Space could tell whether or not any of his
posts had been edited, and my Space said nothing was edited.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
And then he's trying to say it was misread. I mean,
you can't misread really, I love them Loel. You can't
misread that into f and hate my parents. There's not
a way to misread that. But then he comes up
even while being accused of lying.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
They absolutely should have done this before they arrested Brandon.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
I want to say something too quickly to go back
to Bonnie saying something about this arrest. She said they
just wanted to make an arrest because it looked bad
and people were scared, and I'm sure thought they had
the right guy. But the rush to the arrest without
even verifying one of the main things that you're using
as probable cause rush. I mean, clearly the pressure is
(26:02):
on these nice couple have been murdered in their home,
in a quiet, safe place, and we need somebody behind bars,
We need action, we need to show that we know
what's happening. That's a lot of pressure.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
It's a ton and.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
The rush it feels rushed. It does feel rushed.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
So here's my question for you. Then, had this interview
with Mike Etherington happened before the arrest warrant, Andrew, do
you think they would have moved forward with the arrest
warrant learning everything they learned in this interview.
Speaker 8 (26:33):
I don't believe they would have, or they could have.
I mean, how can they there's nothing you know. This
is akin to saying I have intent to kill my parents.
I wish they were dead. And without that, what evidence
do we have that he intended to kill his parents?
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Right access to a missing gun is only important when
you don't have the gun and you don't have any
proof that he's the one who took it because he
said I wish my parents were dead.
Speaker 8 (27:05):
I interpret Colin's excitement at the beginning there and as
a sort of a cya moment. Cover your asses. My
high school principal used to say, Andrew, cover your ass.
Remember that was actually the last thing he told me
every time I saw it.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Colin certainly realized he didn't cover his ass as far
as the my space. So he's arrested and then they
immediately find out it's not true, which means they rushed
it and bungled it. They're protecting themselves, and as soon
as he's arrested, then everyone's looking at him as for
sure the guy his own sister leading that charge.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
Okay, so law enforcement doesn't have the evidence from my
space of Brandon saying that he hated his parents. So
what are some of the motives they float as to
why Brandon would kill them?
Speaker 11 (28:08):
They kind of had a hodgepodge of different theories of
why Brandon might have killed his parents. The first one
in the primary one was that Brandon had just come
out to his parents and told them that he was gay,
and that there may have been some sort of conflict
between him and his parents about that.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
We know from Dennis's sister Cathy, who was interviewed after
Brandon's arrest, that she knew that Brandon had come out
to his dad and that his dad didn't have a
problem with it and wasn't going to cut him off.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
And also that Dennis had a best friend from college
who was a gay man, not necessarily during college, but
was living as an out gay man at that time.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
So that motive is thin. Now do you think that
that is law enforcement assigning their own feelings as a
parent to the situation. It's like they theorize, well in
my church, in my family, I would be upset about this.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
No one made a very clear statement about how there
was an assumption made by multiple law enforcement that were
stated out loud that the parents wouldn't have approved of
his lifestyle.
Speaker 12 (29:24):
You know, in this case at all, the evidence is
kind of overwhelmingly pointing to one individual, an individual being Brandon,
the son of the victim, of the victims, He had
access to a weapon, He was the last one to
see mom and dad alive. He had issues that he
(29:47):
was trying to hide from mom and dad. He was
afraid that they were going to cut off his college
money if they found out what he was doing Dad
would certainly not agree with his lifestyles due to the
fact that they were extremely religious. Uh, the just everything
(30:13):
overwhelmingly points to one individual and one individual only when
you look at everything.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
And this was a team of investigators working on this is.
Speaker 12 (30:24):
Many many hours of investigation, many many hours of crime
scene processing. The only thing we could find, the only
individual who had opportunity, motive and a reason to do this,
which would be motive, was Brandon.
Speaker 13 (30:47):
And tell me about you were saying his father most
certainly wouldn't have proved to his life. So can you
tell me a little bit about that? I meanweciness.
Speaker 12 (30:58):
It's basically all on them that they were religious.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
I don't want to generalize, but I mean it.
Speaker 12 (31:04):
You know, it's kind of touchy subject.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
I know that's what I'm sort of wondering.
Speaker 13 (31:08):
But it certainly back in two thousand and five, it
would it wouldn't have been I mean it was what
was the attitude like on if somebody came out side
a day it's not in this rural county.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
I mean, can you just talk them a little bit
about that?
Speaker 12 (31:19):
Back in two thousand and five when this crime occurred,
coming out is gay or living alternate lifestyles in this
area of the country was not widely accepted or tolerated.
For lack of a better term, that would be something
that would break up families. Calls trouble could be motive
(31:43):
for even murder, and in this case, I believe it was.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
It has been made clear to us that in that
community and in that area of the world, especially at
that time, homosexuality was considered a sin. They run into
that very issue when they're getting ready for with jury selection, and.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
We will definitely dive into that more in upcoming episodes.
Speaker 8 (32:05):
I could see that as a projection of the culture
that they could. You know that law enforcement could think
of it as an angry event full of conflict where
the parents reject Brandon. Certainly, However, I think it's a
big leap to go from anger and rejection to murderous rage.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Like it's not just bang bang, my parents are gone.
It's bang bang bang bang bang stab stab stab stabs.
I mean, it is gruesome and aggressive.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
And also it's not a spontaneous event. It's not like
Brandon had a gun. There's no account that Brandon had
a gun. His parents had a gun.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
But that's not the murder weapon.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
It's not the murder weapon.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
So what we gather from that is the only way
this crime could have been committed is with premeditation. Right,
someone would have had to go out and get a gun.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
Well, if the person who did it isn't Brandon, they
may have had the gun. But if it was Brandon,
he would have had to premeditate it.
Speaker 11 (33:04):
Okay, but you would have had to bring a large gun,
a large pistol, and a knife with you to commit
this crime, right, like post saying, it's not a spontaneous
act of anger. You know for sure you bring these
weapons with you. And there's no indication that Brandon was
walking around with a large gun on his side.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Right, But the point being, what's the evidence. The evidence
is proximity. It's circumstantial evidence based on proximity. And then
also the other big evidence that they talk about in
all those interviews and that everybody talks about is that
he's leading a double life. He's lying about who he
is in ways that the assumption is made.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
What were some of the other motives.
Speaker 11 (33:43):
One of them was that Brandon was flunking out of school.
This was his first semester at Abilene Christian university and
he had been accepted to the college on academic probation,
meaning that he had to pass his classes to be
able to continue to attend. And at this point, Brandon
got to school and was not doing that well in
(34:04):
his classes. He didn't attend, he started skipping classes and
wasn't doing well. And there are some accounts where Brandon's
parents were saying, you know, we will pay for you
for one semester, but you need to prove yourself and
if you're not going to then we're going to no
longer pay for you to go to school. So that's
one of the motives that law enforcement said was that
(34:26):
Brandon's parents were going to cut him off and he
would have to move back home. And there were a
couple different accounts where Brandon didn't like his parent's new house.
He kind of felt, you know that this is a
double wide and it seems a little low brow for him,
and he didn't like staying there.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
Right.
Speaker 11 (34:43):
This is actually part of what the argument was that
if his parents cut him off, he would have to
move back home and he did not want to do that.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
What's interesting about that theory to me is that if
Brandon's being caught off financially and killing his parents is
going to the problem for him, is he anticipating some
sort of payout, because the entire reason the family was
downsizing to this smaller house in Royce City is that
(35:12):
they had about three hundred thousand dollars in debt and
they were really trying to be smart and get a
much smaller house, less materials, you know, like fewer cars,
fewer barns, fewer all.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Of that cut their cost of living.
Speaker 11 (35:29):
Brandon himself had credit card debt that he had been
sort of living beyond his means. Several people had said
that Brandon liked to project that he was wealthy, like
he liked to walk around with the fancy clothes and
to sort of have an air about him as coming
from money, right, So he spent a lot of money
and he himself was in debt and that's you know.
They argue that the same financial mode of tying into it.
(35:52):
There was a life insurance policy. So there is some
discussion that maybe he could have gotten a life insurance payout,
but whatever it was, I don't think it was terribly significant.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
So in summary, law enforcement believes that Brandon killed his
parents because he was gay and his parents wouldn't approve
of his lifestyle, which we know isn't true based on
what Aunt Cathy shared in her interview with law enforcement.
There's also the idea that he was flunking out of school,
as well as a financial motive that his parents were
(36:22):
either going to cut him off or that he had
debt and could possibly receive some money after his parent's death. Now,
what I think is important is that there were many
times for law enforcement to examine other options, just to
look and see if there was anyone else with a
possible motive, But instead they zeroed in and they remained
(36:42):
focused on Brandon. And it isn't until nearly two years
after the death of Denis Norma that the trial is
scheduled to begin. We will cover that on our next episode.
That's it for this week's episode of True Crime Story.
It couldn't happen here, but be sure to join us
(37:04):
next week as we dive deeper into the Brandon Woodriff case.
Speaker 14 (37:08):
This is the first time they were caught, and it
was the first time I think, in Texas that any
DA's office had been actually found to violate the sixth Amendment.
Even the most guilty. Human being on earth has a
right to confer in confidence with their attorney and not
have the state hovering over and listening in on it.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Join us next week as we continue to roll up
our sleeves and dig in. Thank you so much for
joining us. If you haven't watched Sundance TV's True Crime
Story It Couldn't Happen Here, you can catch all of
our episodes streaming on AMC Plus. For more information about
this and other cases we've covered, follow at ice HH
(37:55):
stories on Instagram. True Crime Story It Couldn't Happen Here
was produced by Mischief Farm in association with Bungalow Media
and Entertainment, Authentic Management Productions, and Figdonia in partnership with
Sundance TV. Executive producers are me Hillary Burton, Morgan Liz Deccessor,
(38:15):
Robert Friedman, Mike Powers, and Meg Mortimer. Producers are Maggie
Robinson Katz and Libby Siegel. Our audio engineer is Brendan Dalton,
with original music by Philip Radiotis. We want to say
a special thank you to everyone who participated, but especially
the families impacted by our cases.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com