Bryan Kohberger Investigation Forensics Released, Houston Serial Killer Debate

Death investigator, forensic expert, and host of the hit podcast Body Bags, Professor Joseph Scott Morgan joins for Scientific Sunday — discussing the massive new document release in the 2022 Idaho student murders, rising fears of a potential serial killer in Houston, and a Staten Island case in which a teen has pleaded not guilty in the gruesome murder of his stepfather. Tune in for all the details.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
crime all the time. It's Sunday, November two, and we
hope you had a fantastic Halloween weekend. Happy Sunday everybody.
Hopefully your your time off. Hopefully you had that and
if you did, I hope it was exceptional.

Speaker 3 (00:38):
Because we have a big night tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:40):
Remember it is Scientific Sunday, and yes, we have a
stacked night of forensics. By the way, there has been
this massive dump of documents in the Idaho student murders case.

Speaker 4 (00:51):
Lots of technical stuff.

Speaker 2 (00:53):
We have just gotten through a sumage of it, given
that it's you know, frankly over one thousand page is plus.
But all that to be said, we're going to be
dissecting it with a fine toothcomb over the coming days
and definitely have some highlights to break down with Joseph
Scott Morgan tonight because he is with us, the host

(01:14):
of Body Bags and our favorite forensics expert is here
to kind of break down the forensics in Idaho, and
also the speculation about a potential serial killer in Houston
is intensifying.

Speaker 4 (01:29):
Guys. There's been yet more more bodies.

Speaker 2 (01:32):
I mean, the totality of this is actually getting kind
of incredible, and again forensics to unpack. And then also
this Staten Island teenager who has pled not guilty to
the very gruesome murder of his stepfather.

Speaker 3 (01:47):
We talked about this very very briefly.

Speaker 2 (01:49):
This happened back in October, but again the details are
coming in in Trigger Alert.

Speaker 3 (01:54):
They're pretty intense.

Speaker 2 (01:56):
I'm Stephanie Laidecker and I head of Katie's Studios, where
we make true podcasts like in Cells out now on
iHeartRadio just downloaded on your iHeart Radio app, or The
Idaho Massacre season three, and I get to be here
nightly with my my favorite true crime babes, Courtney Armstrong.

Speaker 4 (02:17):
And Body move In.

Speaker 2 (02:19):
Guys, did you have a fantastic holiday weekend?

Speaker 4 (02:22):
I did?

Speaker 2 (02:23):
It was It was great. Not long enough but not
long enough. Right, everybody seems to be a little hurting today.
Did you get dressed up?

Speaker 3 (02:32):
No?

Speaker 4 (02:32):
I had the document. I thought for sure you were
going to be a la boo boo.

Speaker 3 (02:35):
It would have been so perfect.

Speaker 2 (02:37):
And even I wanted to be a la boo boo,
that would have been I would not do that.

Speaker 5 (02:41):
Well.

Speaker 4 (02:41):
I had the document dump Friday night.

Speaker 2 (02:43):
I emailed you guys, like at ten o'clock at night, like,
I know that's what I was doing.

Speaker 4 (02:47):
But that was that was Halloween.

Speaker 2 (02:49):
But you know, I know, houckly there were a few
moments there after, Courtney.

Speaker 4 (02:54):
How about you?

Speaker 6 (02:55):
Yeah, it was good. I mean I love an extra hour.
I really in my mind, I'm like, now you're on vacation,
so I try and milk that extra hour. So I
had a lot of lavender steam going for myself, So
that's what I used to celebrate the hour.

Speaker 4 (03:13):
Having your steam.

Speaker 2 (03:14):
That sounds so that sounds so beautiful, and that's so
perfect for a little like self care Sunday as well.

Speaker 3 (03:21):
Do you ever miss simmer pots, like the simmer pots
with like oranges and apples and cranberries and cinnamon and
cranberries and you just put it in the pot on
your stove and little boil.

Speaker 4 (03:33):
It's fabulous and then it smells.

Speaker 3 (03:35):
Like the holidays.

Speaker 2 (03:36):
Yes, it's such a great tip. It's like homemade Pope
bri if you wonderful.

Speaker 4 (03:41):
Yeah, I love it.

Speaker 3 (03:42):
That's kind of whattle bit and that's what I great
state of Tennessee.

Speaker 2 (03:46):
And Taha, I assume you you and the gentleman we have,
you know, Sam and Adam with a little bit of
a makeover.

Speaker 3 (03:54):
There's less facial hair in the rooms.

Speaker 2 (03:57):
I will let you speak for yourself, but I think
it looks fantastic.

Speaker 7 (04:01):
Thank you.

Speaker 8 (04:01):
I'm kind of regretting it right now because I'm not
crazy about my.

Speaker 4 (04:05):
Face six years younger.

Speaker 2 (04:09):
Yeah, it's about facial hair. Everybody who likes to not
see their face. I think it's great to have your
face back.

Speaker 7 (04:17):
Well, thank you.

Speaker 8 (04:18):
That makes me the pain of it so much better.

Speaker 7 (04:21):
And think about that for the next two weeks.

Speaker 2 (04:25):
Did you do that for a costume or was this
just a spontaneous haircut?

Speaker 7 (04:29):
I did.

Speaker 8 (04:30):
I did it because I dressed up as Robert Smith.

Speaker 3 (04:35):
Love it.

Speaker 4 (04:38):
I can't wait to see pictures.

Speaker 8 (04:40):
Yeah, I'll totally send that. So I even bought like,
you know, makeup and lipstick and everything.

Speaker 3 (04:45):
I love it.

Speaker 4 (04:46):
Woman, we will proof.

Speaker 2 (04:48):
We would love some photoproof and Taha, Adam, what do
we think? How was your holiday weekends?

Speaker 7 (04:54):
Mine was good.

Speaker 5 (04:55):
I I went down to the West Hollywood area. I
dressed up as a as a dem and I had
these big horns that went out.

Speaker 4 (05:02):
He stuck up in the air, complete opposite of Yeah.

Speaker 5 (05:04):
I tried to hear the opposite, but but that was fine.
It was There were a lot of people I was
telling some people earlier. I saw a lot of Luigi's
this year. A lot of people dressed as Luigi, A
lot of couple of people dressed as the Epstein files.

Speaker 7 (05:19):
I saw a lot of just a.

Speaker 5 (05:21):
Lot of people who put a lot of time and
effort into costumes.

Speaker 4 (05:24):
So I saw a lot of Luigi's online. I was
really surprised by that.

Speaker 7 (05:28):
Actually, yeah, yeah, I'm not.

Speaker 4 (05:30):
Surprised at all.

Speaker 2 (05:31):
You know, apparently he's been getting so much mail in
the prison he's staying at, or the jail he's staying at,
i should say, And apparently he's listening to a ton
of Taylor Swift.

Speaker 7 (05:41):
Oh really interesting.

Speaker 3 (05:42):
He's a Swift was like knee deep.

Speaker 2 (05:44):
He's been apparently corresponding with one of his like weird
super fans who he told via letter, and then she,
of course, you know, shared that with the press that
he was really doubling down on listening to Taylor Swift
while he did his walks on the upper level whatever
that means. And also he got a little slack for that,

(06:04):
you know, from his little cohorts behind bars.

Speaker 7 (06:09):
Interesting, okay, wouldn't but the.

Speaker 2 (06:11):
Fact that there were so many costumes, I find that
interesting and is interesting.

Speaker 7 (06:15):
Yeah, I find it interesting too unusual, so I don't
like it.

Speaker 4 (06:18):
And Adam will get to you in the next one.

Speaker 2 (06:20):
But we have a talk back coming in live aticas.

Speaker 9 (06:25):
This is Marta again from Atlanta, and I wanted to
share my experience in Idaho. I recently went there for
work and decided, after a few moments of hesitation, to
scream by Marco and uh the one one, two two
King Roads And there's like a very cute and and.

Speaker 10 (06:48):
Understated a shrine in.

Speaker 11 (06:50):
Front of it.

Speaker 9 (06:51):
And the one thing that was so surprising to me is,
and I still can't fathom, is how a person can
actually speed out of that area without crashing into anything.
And then the only thing that I was thinking too
the other day is after a pretty softing run, I

(07:12):
was I just thought that I couldn't even see anything,
you know, like my vision all of a sudden, but
a little blurt, So I thought that maybe co workers
didn't see what the dealering by one of the surviving
surviving roommates on a good way out because of how
exhausted he was after what he did. So keep it up.

(07:34):
I love hearing your show. It sounds like you guys
are having a lot of fun at work. But because
it shows so much in the product that you're putting
out byeos.

Speaker 2 (07:53):
In the background, do you think I thank you for
the top back. We so appreciate it. That was Yeah,
what do we think was that a baby?

Speaker 4 (08:02):
A puppy?

Speaker 3 (08:02):
I don't know that.

Speaker 2 (08:07):
Have your cat as well, And thank you for the
thoughtful talk back. Go ahead, buddy, you were going to say, oh, no,
it's fine.

Speaker 3 (08:13):
I was going to say yeah, when you know he
when Brian Colberger left the home and he sped out,
he does kind of turn right there and almost crash
into the trash cans. So yeah, that it's very narrow
and there's cars parked along the street right, so it
makes it even worse, Like, yeah, I'm surprised he didn't

(08:34):
crush into something too.

Speaker 6 (08:36):
Well, let's keep it in mind, he had what two
dozen or more practice friends as referenced by his GPS
leading near.

Speaker 2 (08:46):
I'm strong to that point though, And by the way,
it's very astute of you having you know, once you
go there, you sort of have a very similar interpretation.
It is so small, right, so it's it's surprisingly close
to fraternity homes for example, in other places. Sometimes we
think these things happen in real isolated places, which of

(09:08):
course they do, but in this case it was not
that it was actually a very active area. Yes, it's
a cultsat kind of a dead end, so you would
have to be very intentional to go there. But imagine
it's a college town, so there's cars here and there
and everywhere. And yeah, and to your point, he had
a trial run or many for that matter, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 6 (09:33):
But lots of good points. Well, you are listening to
True Crime tonight on this Sunday evening, and hopefully you
are enjoying fall being here. We are just getting started.
But now we would love to introduce Joseph Scott Morgan
who is joining us a forensic expert on this scientific Sunday,
and I think we're going to dive into some of

(09:56):
that new forensics that you mentioned earlier, Stephanie that more
than two thousand pages worth of information in the Idaho
student college murders case.

Speaker 4 (10:06):
Right.

Speaker 3 (10:06):
So it's it's twenty three hundred and fifty six pages,
and it dropped Friday, and it's new forensics information regarding
the Idaho student murders which we were just talking about.
And it's called the Idaho State Police Forensics Services Case Jacket,
and it contains things from you know, the receival ship

(10:29):
of evidence to the crime lab and who dropped it
off and how it was you know, sealed, and all
the way to DNA testing and the results of different
things that they found at the house up to and
including Brian Coberger's home in Pennsylvania. You know, it's it's
twenty three hundred pages of evidence. There's photos in this,

(10:53):
there's it's just a lot. It's a lot to process,
and you know, it's it's it's the weekend and we
haven't had a ton of time to process it all.
So I kind of went through it this weekend and
I pulled out some things that I thought maybe those
of us who were in the weeds a little bit
and I'm a little bit in the weeds, right, those
of us who are in the weeds a little bit

(11:14):
might want to talk about. And the biggest thing that
I think was that was in this this document was
we finally get to see a picture of the knife sheath,
and that was the one item, of course that you know,
physically tied Brian Coberger, who has been convicted of this
murder because he pled guilty back in July, and it's

(11:36):
the one thing that basically ties his DNA to this
crime scene, and we got a picture of it. So
I thought, you know, it would be a good idea
to maybe talk about it. And since we have Joseph
that you know, there's it's.

Speaker 4 (11:50):
Perfect right, Hi Joseph, Hi Joseph.

Speaker 2 (11:52):
And by the way, Joseph is coming for I promise
we'll let you speak, Joseph. But just to like preface,
also going to do a crime l Joseph Scott Morgan
about blood splatters. So it does seem particularly relevant because
you were talking about the shape and it doesn't appear
to just be the snap that we've always been talking about.

(12:13):
There's like speckles of blood. So yeah, let's do Joseph welcome.

Speaker 12 (12:18):
Well, that terms I love, I love that, I love
that term speckles. Yeah, in the in the laboratory a lot.
But it's it's highly descriptive because if you think about
something that's speckled, uh, it gives you dimensionally, it gives
you an idea of the size of these these this

(12:38):
this blood deposition, these droplets, because it's not I think
that for people have not seen the image of the sheathe,
I'm saying that it's just super specated and that ain't
the case, all right. They're these tiny little bits of
deposition on multiple surfaces of the seeing. And back to

(13:01):
a comment that you had made just a moment ago,
Steph relative to the DNA that was found his DNA,
I think a lot of people were in the impression
that the sheath was pristine other than that bit of
DNA that is on the snap and that's just not
the case. I'd often wondered about the surfaces. And of

(13:24):
course we didn't really hear anything, right, because we didn't
have a trial, you didn't have evidence presentation. The fact
that now you can physically observe this and draw these conclusions.
And the one thing I have to preface this just
so that people understand, and this is from a practitioner standpoint,
when you talk about something that looks like blood.

Speaker 7 (13:47):
We understand that just looks.

Speaker 12 (13:51):
Like doesn't mean that it is blood. You have to
test it to confirm that it is blood. Then you
have to delineate as to whether or not it's human
blood or animal blood, and then we get into the
area of typing, and then DNA comes after that. So

(14:11):
it's a multi, multi step process that has to take place.
That's why, if you'll remember back, I never ever said
that that was blood seeping out of the house and
those images because I couldn't confirm it. And you know,
I had visions of Professor as old Professor slapping me
on the back of the hand if I had made

(14:32):
that statement on air, because just because it looks like blood,
I've been fooled by rust. I've been fooled by you know,
melted chocolate, yeah or yeah. So there's a number of
things that can kind of give you this presentation, right.

Speaker 3 (14:48):
And there is these small speckles of blood on the
back of the sheeth, So the sheath was obviously faced
down at some point right on this on the bed,
and I did look up whose DNA that was on
the sheath of the blood, and it's the major contributor

(15:09):
was Kaylee Gonsalvez and the minor contributor was Madison Mogan.
DNA on the sheath belonged to Brian Coberger.

Speaker 6 (15:17):
On the button snap well a lot more as we
unpack these thousands of pages of information. But listen, when
we come back, we're going to continue unpacking the document
dump and we are also going to get into what
is happening in Houston's bious We have that we have
more true crime tonight.

Speaker 2 (15:44):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. You're talking
true crime all the time. Welcome to the show. We
are so happy to have you here on this like
host to Halloween Free almost holiday week. Are we entering
Thanksgiving season. We're all also going to get to hear
some of your Halloween tales, So thank you for the
weekend talkbacks because we'll definitely get to some of those

(16:07):
as well. I want to hear some trickery and some
wild times, Like give me some wild Halloween stories.

Speaker 6 (16:13):
Okay, Well, I got a little sneak peek from Adam earlier.
We're going to hear from some listener. It involves a
hot dog costume and some form of an appointment. So
that's all I know. But I'm very excited about.

Speaker 2 (16:28):
Treatment for a hot dog. I'm into that, right, I
would make that appointment.

Speaker 3 (16:32):
I'm into that appointment actually, And Joseph Scott Morgan of course,
because it's scientific Sunday and we're going to do a
little crime lab later and we're unpacking basically this this
really big info dump from the Idaho massacre student murders.

Speaker 2 (16:49):
Lots of information forensically speaking, I mean, it's very intensive.
Some of the information we know. Some of it I
wish we didn't know. I don't know why it's being dumped,
and I actually find it odd.

Speaker 4 (17:02):
Why are we getting all of.

Speaker 2 (17:03):
These massive, massive, well jumps of information. You know, he's
pled guilty. By the way, I feel a little better
about it. Every time I see more information, I'm like, well,
the right person is behind bars. It appears based on
the evidence, not just all the stuff we were you know,
hoping or thinking or pontificating or theorizing. And by the way,

(17:27):
all of those theories that everybody here on this show
has put forth has been accurate, you know, it really
has been. But it is it's a little gory, and
it's it's sad and It reminds us, of course that
Santa Crnodle and Ethan Chapin and Kaylee Gonzalvez and Madison
Mogan lost their lives that night, and as we dig

(17:48):
into the forensics, it's important to keep that in context, right, Like,
these were real lives and they have real families that
are coping still to this day. So these these details
and things that perhaps they would have seen at trial
or heard at trial, which what they were kind of
bracing for. Right, I would have to assume that when
you were going to trial, you're putting on your armor.

(18:12):
But on a random Sunday after Halloween, you know, you
don't really want to think about it. It was it
was Halloween night when this, you know, came came out.
So it's hard stuff and it's sensitive stuff, and I
would say, trigger alert. We're going to try to get
through it as quickly as possible ourselves in the coming days,
just to kind of steer you in the right place

(18:33):
and give you the the synopsis to the best that
we can. Joseph being here talking about the Night's sheath
at this moment, so Joseph's had a little bit of
audio issues. So if that if that happens again. No sweat,
He'll call right back in.

Speaker 12 (18:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 13 (18:49):
Hey, let me point out one more thing relative to
chronology here. I don't know if you guys are aware
of we're coming up on the three yearniversary of Ataho.
We're just you know, we're just a couple of weeks away.
Now we're in November, and uh, I don't know about
you guys. I'll still never forget where I was, you know,

(19:12):
when the news came in, uh, the initial attack, and
you know, still, you know, my mind wanders back to that,
to that point in time, you know, because I can
see in my student's eyes right now they're excited about Thanksgiving.
You know, already they're over the semester. Those kids then
were over that semester. By the time you get to
that point in the academic school year, you've had enough.

(19:36):
You know, you want you want it to end. It
doesn't seem like it ever will. But you know, back
to this this dump of data that has come out.
It is fascinating that we're getting these huge tranches and
I don't I don't really know. Uh, maybe they're just
you know, keeping their word. They said that they would

(19:58):
release information, and boy, I got to tell you this
has been a tidal way. I was shocked at the
size the volume of this trank that came out.

Speaker 4 (20:09):
It's pretty a fact.

Speaker 2 (20:10):
We were making the documentary and Joseph, you and I
did this together, and this was not information that we
had period the end, and therefore we were really careful
because we didn't want to speculate on the dock and
make sure that everything was accounted for and legally vetted.
This does fill in a lot of blanks period the
end exclamation point, but it is really a lot of

(20:33):
detail and I don't see this in all cases. I
don't know if you guys do, but speaking for myself,
you know, we're all begging for the Epstein files to
be released like this, I suppose, but this was sort
of an unexpected I don't want to say overshare, because
everybody's asking for this information, but it is pretty granular
and it's also really detailed for families to have such

(20:58):
immediate access to. And one thing too, to keep in
mind is that we would have learned all this in trial,
but there was no trial. So while is you know
a little in the weeds, there are people like trial
watchers that you know, like me, and whatnot that that
are into learning this kind of stuff. And the one
thing that that is the downside for me is that

(21:21):
you know, at a trial, you would have like a
professional explain, Yeah, you would have driven contact, somebody would
be guiding us through the expert opinion of what we
are hearing and seeing. Otherwise we're left to our minds.
And to your point, yes, everyone is interested, but we
want to be.

Speaker 4 (21:37):
Thoughtful about how it's being interpreted.

Speaker 2 (21:39):
And sometimes an expert or someone who's brained in this
particular field is the one.

Speaker 4 (21:45):
So it's not just clipbait, right, Yeah, my sanitized that's right.

Speaker 6 (21:50):
And on the clickbait front, I struggle a little bit because, yes,
the court promised that as that everything would be revealed
and reverse chronological order that would have come out in trial. However,
for me, in a trial, there's a purpose to the trial.
There's a purpose to airing every granular detail, and that
purpose is to find the right person who committed the

(22:15):
crime and put them away. In my mind, body has
her finger up, but I feel a little bit of
I am lacking that purpose and it makes me feel uneasy. Stephanie,
back to what you said about the family members, and
how anyone I can read page nine hundred and seventy
six of this with no context form some crazy opinion concern.

Speaker 3 (22:38):
Yeah, no, and I think that's very valid. But nobody
is convicted in the dark. That's the issue. The trial
would have been public, and in this one would have
been aired, but I would have been able or anybody
would have been able to walk into that courtroom and
sit and listen to it. And when it's if it's
not released, you have to shed light on the stuff,

(22:59):
you know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (23:00):
Otherwise the conspiracies are just going to keep going and
going and going and going and going.

Speaker 14 (23:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (23:04):
I hear that too. And that's the issue. It's just
so grizzly. It's it's so.

Speaker 2 (23:12):
I mean, even in Spot talking through it, it is
it's kind of triggering, and I don't you know, And yeah,
I think we're all a little close to it. But
I wonder without context if it's dangerous in some ways too.
It's also giving light for an appeal.

Speaker 4 (23:27):
Well, that's why we have Joseph.

Speaker 2 (23:28):
And you know that's why you know, do we have Joseph?
Can he hear us?

Speaker 3 (23:32):
Okay? Oh yeah, okay, great, Joseph, what are you, because
Joseph does have a way to sanitize this in a sense, right,
like make it palatable. This is a really unpalatable document
and he has the way to kind of make it
palatable because it's very scientific.

Speaker 13 (23:49):
Yeah, well, thank you for that. And I think that
the only way And uh, court, I got I gotta
tell you, I completely understand where you're coming from relative
to this, and you lose that that courtroom context. I

(24:10):
think you know form and function. And here's the rub.
I think if you want to try to understand the
nature of this case, you have to look at the
science of it. And really that's all that we have.
The trick to that is is that how is the
science or these results, how are they going to be?
How do you vet the process because you know that

(24:34):
this data that is being given to us by the
state is not passing through the fire of a court
with validating how you came to these conclusions. That's one
of the big things you do in forensics, right because
when you you know, you go as an expert witness
through vor Dyer, you know, they ask you about your background,
what kind of experience do you have? Why should essentially

(24:56):
asking the question why should we assigned validity to anything
you have to say on the stand. So therein laves
the problem when you get this raw data, you don't
have the defense holding your feet to the fire here.
I'm not saying that it's invalid. I'm just saying that
that's kind of the crucible that it that it all

(25:16):
flows through in chord.

Speaker 3 (25:18):
No, it's a good point, yeah, because the defense is
he's convicted, hep had guilty. So the defense isn't going
to be raising objections to things presented in this in
this document, and we're not going to be able to
hear why those objections might have been valid, right, like
you know, and I don't know what they would have
objected to. I'm probably I'm going to say probably everything.

(25:38):
But yeah, the DNA on the sheath belonged to Brian Coberger.
And not only did it belong to Brian Coberger, but
it says the DNA profile previously obtained from item one
dot one, which is the sheath matches that obtained from
the known reference sample of Brian Coberger. This DNA profile
is at least five point three seven octillion times more

(26:01):
to be seen if Brian Kolberger is the source. So
I mean the statistics behind it.

Speaker 13 (26:06):
Oh, that that number is so astronomical, you know, and
you know, keep in mind with DNA nowadays, we've moved
way past uh you know. Our other frame of reference
used to be blood typing, right prior to the days
of DNA, And I think that with ab neg, which
is the rarest blood type in the world, those numbers

(26:29):
are like you said, octilian right just a second ago.
So with like ab neg, you're talking about one. I
think I'm probably going to get this wrong, but I
think it's like roughly one in every one hundred and
sixty people have. And so you take that number, that ratio,
and you compare it to numbers that are in the octilions,

(26:53):
and it's mind blowing, absolutely mind blowing.

Speaker 3 (26:57):
Joseph, your your audio is getting a little stature, gonna
We're gonna hold on for one moment. This is your
crime tonight on iHeartRadio. I'm body Movin and I'm here
with Stephanie Leidecker and Courtney Armstrong and Joseph Scott Morgan.
We're right kind of in the weeds of the DNA
on the sheath, but we're going to kind of go
to another story Courtney, what do we.

Speaker 6 (27:15):
Have, Well, hm, pardon me, it's an update in Houston.
The number of bodies that have been recovered from Houston's BYUS,
it's gone past two dozen at this point. And within
all of those many victims and bodies, there have been
conflicting forensic reports, there have been undetermined autopsies, and some

(27:37):
of the digital evidence has been unexamined. So all of
these factors are fueling a renewed scrutiny of the officials,
and they're saying, hey, they being the public, Hey is
there a serial killer involved? And this has been happening
for two years. We've talked about this before, yes, yeah, wow, So.

Speaker 4 (28:00):
I'm sorry.

Speaker 6 (28:00):
City officials and police have repeatedly said that there is
no evidence of foul play, and again, some people just
question the inconsistent autopsy findings, the degraded evidence, because of
course bayous include water exposure. And also what people are
raising a flag about is what they are seeing as
potential premature dismissals of homicide. So maybe that the officials

(28:25):
are too quickly saying this was an accident, perhaps it was.

Speaker 2 (28:32):
Drugs, or it was suicide or or but bodies aren't
just winding up in the bayou. That's number one, number two,
and Joseph will weigh in on this. Yeah, when you're
submerged in water for extended periods of time, from a
forensics experts perspective, that changes things, decomposition, all of the above.
So are the forensics being changed in a way that

(28:57):
is making authorities make the suggestion that there's nothing to
see here.

Speaker 4 (29:01):
That's a lot of bodies and a.

Speaker 2 (29:04):
Fairly insignificant amount of time in the big scheme of things.
This is rare, And Yeah, we'll definitely have to hit
Joseph up for some of those answers about the decomposition.

Speaker 6 (29:16):
That's right, and part of it, I think, you know,
when we have Joseph backnext segment, we'll get into those
details and see what clarity we can bring. But this
also came into play because the deceased family, the family
members of deceased twenty two year old Kenneth Cutting, hired
an investigator and they have to Yeah, and they contend

(29:39):
that the authorities are too quickly dismissing the potential of
the serial killer. His autopsy was ruled undetermined with a
negative toxicology, and that left a lot of open questions
on his case and manner of death. So families are
just saying things are being quote washed away too quickly,
and fl members are coming out.

Speaker 2 (30:01):
And by the way, I think we have Joseph back
that we've seen this in a lot of cases, where
individual people are basically hiring their own person to do
a deeper investigation. We're seeing this obviously in the David case.
We were just talking about this and during the break
pop Star David, what is happening with you know Celeste Revas.

Speaker 3 (30:19):
They've had to you know.

Speaker 2 (30:21):
Go out and outsource for information Montalk you know that investigation.
Family members have hired an investigation into their daughter's death.
The Australian you know fashion designer that we talked about
about it years ago. So anyway, this is becoming less
and less uncommon, talk about costly and unbelievable. Joseph Scott Morgan,

(30:41):
our forensics expert, is having a little bit of a
tech issue in this exact moment. So whatever we don't
get to with him tonight, he of course will come
back to unpack with us, which is a lot of stuff.
So we don't want to we don't want to make
it not perfect. So everyone's kind of sorting it out
behind the scenes right now. But in the meantime, let's

(31:01):
go to a talk back because we have a lot
of those to get through too, and I would like
to hear some about Halloween in some point, so let's
hear it.

Speaker 15 (31:08):
Taha, Happy Halloween. This is Christine from Alberta, Canada. I'm
on my way to the chiropractor's office in the next
town over, about forty five minutes away, and I'm dressed.

Speaker 6 (31:19):
Up as a hot dog. Life is too short not
to dress up for Halloween.

Speaker 15 (31:24):
I love putting smiles on people's faces. As a gen xer,
my parents allowed me to watch Boltergeist and American Werewolf
in London at eight years old.

Speaker 3 (31:35):
Yes, yep, yep, we are watching.

Speaker 4 (31:40):
Jaws in the movies.

Speaker 6 (31:42):
Like she is our people.

Speaker 4 (31:44):
Oh wait, so what is so waity? Go ahead, let's
she's driving down the street.

Speaker 3 (31:49):
Can you imagine looking over at your chiropractice office, I'm
seeing a woman and a hot dog costume driving car
twice twice.

Speaker 4 (31:58):
Hilarious awesome. Yes, by the way, that is so random.

Speaker 3 (32:02):
Like I'm going to call through crime tonight and tell
them I'm dressed as a hot doog going to chiropractor.

Speaker 4 (32:06):
And by the way, those are the kinds of things
I love.

Speaker 6 (32:08):
To hear me too.

Speaker 4 (32:09):
By the way, that's why you have a bad back.

Speaker 2 (32:11):
It's because you're dressed in this an awkward, you know,
hot dog costume and have to drive in it that
is not easy to pull off. By the way, I
was dressed as a cat in a hat which was
just a zip up and I could barely survive even
that in a chair. So I hear your sister, But
a great call, and I hope your chiropractor appreciates you.

Speaker 4 (32:30):
I'm sure it made him smile. Right, let's go to
another talk.

Speaker 15 (32:34):
Hey, y'all, this is Jackie from North Carolina. Not sure
if my left talkback went through, but the mental cheese
is very easy to make. Google a recipe. Pology has
an excellent one.

Speaker 3 (32:45):
Thak girl where there is pology. I don't think she
knows who she's talking to. Okay, I burn water.

Speaker 4 (32:52):
I'm the one.

Speaker 3 (32:52):
This is body. I'm the one who wanted the potental cheese.
I burn water like I cannot cook. You need to
to to be able. I have a crockpot.

Speaker 4 (33:01):
Do you know that.

Speaker 2 (33:03):
All fall where it's crock pot season and let's do it.

Speaker 4 (33:07):
I think Courtney's going to.

Speaker 2 (33:08):
Teach us because I made crockpott in skills. Just make
it will smell good. Frankly, I kind of taste like
a stew.

Speaker 6 (33:16):
I love.

Speaker 4 (33:17):
What is the pomented cheese situation?

Speaker 7 (33:19):
So yeah, what is the recipe?

Speaker 3 (33:21):
Well, I'm not sure, but I was saying I don't.
I was saying that the jars of pimento cheese that
used to be able to buy at the grocery store,
it had the blue cap and it was the little
glass jar. I love pimento cheese and I would always
get like crackers and the pimento cheese and I would
have a little snack. You can't buy them anymore. No
stores where I live carry it anymore.

Speaker 6 (33:41):
And I was it looks like our listener is exactly right,
and it's three ingredients, is what I'm looking at as.

Speaker 2 (33:48):
The general Pauladin's recipe would suggest. Well, I didn't specifically
said Pauladine. By the way, where is Pauladine? I haven't
seen I haven't heard that name in a hot minute.

Speaker 4 (34:00):
Us to love that Pauladine.

Speaker 6 (34:01):
Where's she at? She had some troubles? Is where she lived.
Where is Rachel Ray?

Speaker 2 (34:06):
I want to know about this palmetto cheese situation. I'm
and I'm also ready for a cross recipe if anybody
has them.

Speaker 6 (34:14):
Oh and pauladines is not three three ingredients, by the way,
it's many multiple.

Speaker 7 (34:20):
It's no, we want it easier.

Speaker 4 (34:22):
Whatever is easy.

Speaker 3 (34:23):
As people say ingredients, I five.

Speaker 4 (34:26):
Ingredients are less? Can we do that?

Speaker 7 (34:29):
I like five? I think that's it seems.

Speaker 16 (34:31):
Reasonable counting all the spices, well, spices, like not everybody
has like a bajillion spices, right, Like we have like
a little spice kit that you get at home Goods Tjmax.

Speaker 3 (34:42):
Right, So do we need more spices than that?

Speaker 2 (34:45):
If it's calling for something that's like extra chilled, I
think we're getting off the simple, simple spices.

Speaker 5 (34:51):
I think five is an easy number for people to
work with, and we won't count the spices.

Speaker 7 (34:56):
Spice to your choice, whatever you want. But I think
it's five.

Speaker 2 (35:00):
I had got five basic ingredients plus any spice there after.

Speaker 7 (35:04):
You like, I think that's a good way.

Speaker 5 (35:06):
Okay, I'm gonna we might make that a question for
our audience to listen to and get back to us about.

Speaker 7 (35:12):
So.

Speaker 6 (35:12):
So I made a chili this weekend, and I have
to say, chili is so good. It was so simple.
And Stephanie knows my husband Wade very well. You guys
know him a little bit because he comes into the
studio every now and again. But he has been trying
to perfect chili and he makes it very complicated. And
I jumped dumped a whole bunch of easy stuff out

(35:34):
of cans, brown some meat, and he literally called it
the platonic ideal of chili.

Speaker 2 (35:39):
Wow very much, Oh my god, is actually extraordinarily delicious.
I'm not gonna I have not tasted Wades, your incredibly
wonderful husband, but like I can't speak to his, so
this is not a dig, but yours is the best.

Speaker 6 (35:53):
It's just Leary.

Speaker 2 (35:54):
No, I don't know who's going to stand in competition
except for Andrey Andres. Remember we had that chili one
time and she put the fritos.

Speaker 6 (36:01):
With it, the best, the best. No, I was chasing
that for a while. I would make that, so Stephanie's
referring to it delicious, and then she gave us the
recipe and I would actually remake it. We would have
like development meetings while I stirred.

Speaker 2 (36:14):
Thes are a fun little add on to your chili.

Speaker 3 (36:19):
Delicious miser if you guys ever been to Missouri, because
they sell Freeto pies in gas stations and it's chili
and fritos.

Speaker 5 (36:27):
Oh it's delicious crust and then the yeah.

Speaker 3 (36:31):
It's like a free doo crust with chili. It's really good.
I was scared. But my friend, my friend Shelley rest
in peace. I would miss you very much. But she
was like, just try it, just you'll you'll you know,
you'll love it. And I was like, okay, all right,
and I did. She was right, she knew me.

Speaker 6 (36:48):
Yeah, she said, very smart.

Speaker 5 (36:50):
Yes, I'm open to it. Anything with food I'm open.

Speaker 4 (36:55):
To so chili sounds like she had great taste. She
really did.

Speaker 6 (37:00):
Oh well, listen, everybody, this is true crime tonight. Let's
in this moment think really good thoughts of all the
loved ones that we loved enough to bring a tear
to our eye, because if we have that, then we're
actually are Yeah right, we're lucky. It's the truth. I
always say, it's love leaking out of my eyes. So
hopefully you are filled with love. I'm Courtney, I'm here,

(37:22):
and I am so happy. To be here with Stephanie
Leideker and body move in, and we are taking all
of your talk back, so let's go to another one.

Speaker 3 (37:31):
Hey, ladies, Happy Halloween.

Speaker 14 (37:33):
I just heard the talk back about flowers in the attic,
and I was not allowed to watch scary movies in
my house as a kid, and so I am absolutely terrified.
The one that scared me the most when I was
young was children under the stairs. So instead of attics,
think the basement. I was terrified. I hope you guys
had a great Halloween, and I can't wait to hear

(37:54):
your episode.

Speaker 2 (37:56):
By the way, I never say yeah, I was were
children on the story there were children under the stairs?

Speaker 3 (38:02):
I think in real life.

Speaker 2 (38:04):
Oh, I'm gonna this is seperate now, but yeah, what
she is referring to is horrifying. And by the way,
a great talk back, great recall. Now I have the chills.
I want to say that was based on true events, even.

Speaker 6 (38:18):
You're one hundred percent right. So it's a nineteen ninety
one film, and it was inspired. It was inspired by
an actual news story from nineteen seventy eight. Oh my goodness,
someone came and burgled the house and discovered that children
were being held captive there.

Speaker 7 (38:36):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (38:37):
Yet they found the house only because they were doing
bad things to the house.

Speaker 4 (38:41):
Imagine go with that thought process.

Speaker 2 (38:43):
So here you are, you're breaking and entering, looking to steal,
and then you discover the lost children who have been
hidden under the stairs.

Speaker 7 (38:53):
Wow ooh that's crazy.

Speaker 4 (38:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (38:57):
Can we go to a face mask one or something?

Speaker 3 (39:02):
That's a scary thought right? Between that and the people
in the walls. Come on, let's go straight to.

Speaker 4 (39:07):
Another talk back.

Speaker 10 (39:09):
Hi. This is Stella from Albaquerque, New Mexico, and talking
about speaky Halloween movies. I'm not sure if any of
you guys have seen Dragged Me to Hell, but yeah,
that one's pretty scary. Happy Halloween. Bye.

Speaker 4 (39:29):
Have you not seen it? Have you guys seen it?
I haven't seen Drag Me to Hell.

Speaker 3 (39:33):
I'm shaking my head like people can hear me. No,
I haven't seen it.

Speaker 4 (39:36):
Always that's so scary. It's so scary.

Speaker 6 (39:39):
It's so so so scary.

Speaker 4 (39:41):
It's actually almost too scary. If you're not, Yeah, it's
almost too scary.

Speaker 3 (39:45):
Do not watch it at night.

Speaker 2 (39:46):
Watch it in the morning while eating rice crispies in
the lightest, brightest house.

Speaker 4 (39:51):
Yeah, exactly like.

Speaker 2 (39:53):
In the like the Brightest Sun, imaginable because it's a
scary one. You know what else is scary? Have you
guys seen The m Night Chalamagne Devil? Yes, in the Elevator.
I loved it. It was so good.

Speaker 3 (40:07):
I love all of his movies. All of his movies
are so like, what is going on?

Speaker 4 (40:12):
I love this?

Speaker 2 (40:12):
A little high concept, very simple. I'll give you the premise.
I don't think I'm talking off script. Body cut me
off if I am. It's basically like five or six
people unexpected, as happens to all of us all the time, gathering,
you know, or in an elevator. We're just every you know,
random people in an elevator that gets stuck. And then

(40:34):
those random people you start learning about, and little do
you know that they're all brought together. You know, it's
it's a fate if you will. And amongst them, one
of them is the Devil.

Speaker 6 (40:48):
Oh my word.

Speaker 3 (40:51):
And that's the whole movie, right, This is the whole movie.
The premise, It is so good. The whole thing is
in this elevator. It's so it's very tense.

Speaker 4 (41:00):
Yeah, and you start.

Speaker 6 (41:01):
You don't know who's who.

Speaker 2 (41:03):
I'm not giving anything away that's actually in the henter.
I just double checked it. I'm like, God, did I
just spoil that? I don't know, I kind of very
I also knew that going in also, And it's really simple.
I have to assume it was shut during COVID. It's
very simple. There's not a lot of bells and whistles,
which I kind of like because I don't love all
the gory.

Speaker 6 (41:21):
I am so excited to watch that.

Speaker 4 (41:23):
You should, Courtney, You would really like it.

Speaker 6 (41:25):
I think, like especially in the one space, because I
like plays so much that are very soul, and so
it sounds like a play what you're describing.

Speaker 3 (41:35):
And it's very psychological because I can't I can't say
why it's psychological, but it's it's psychological intense the whole time,
and you're like, what's.

Speaker 4 (41:44):
Going to happen next? And oh my god, they're fighting
and it's it's it's.

Speaker 2 (41:47):
It's very good and it's everybody's worst fear or happiest fear.
Right you get on an airplane, you step into an elevator, like,
is this going to be the grouping of humans that
I'm trapped with?

Speaker 4 (41:57):
Right?

Speaker 6 (41:57):
I never do you think your thought?

Speaker 7 (42:00):
I never talking, But now I'm going to think it
every time.

Speaker 2 (42:05):
No, No, when you're like in it, you're like, oh
my god, I'm in a reality movie right now, Like
these are the people, Like who you're going to be
in this movie? Like are you going to be the
one that shrinkson is a nightmare? Are you going to
be the one that is industrious and adds to the
survival team that have been expected?

Speaker 3 (42:21):
I'm going to be the little passengers screaming and crying
and throwing up.

Speaker 2 (42:25):
That's going to be You're going to be emotion I
have a feeling though, in that Ocean eleven.

Speaker 4 (42:31):
Squad we want you in.

Speaker 2 (42:33):
Yeah, but I think everybody should think about that, Like
that is like when you sit on a plane or
get into a train, you don't think he's on a subway.

Speaker 7 (42:41):
I don't think of the train. I never thought in
an elevator. But again, now I'm going to probably judge
the group before I step on, Like you know.

Speaker 2 (42:47):
Oh, I always do like a lap of who's who,
just like who's close to where? This is a crazy thought.
I guess no one else. Everyone's looking at me like
I'm the nut. I guess this is a nutty confession.
Then when I get on an elevator or on a plane,
when I sit down, I or on a train a subway, frankly,
I do a quick little.

Speaker 3 (43:06):
Gaze left, right, straight forward, like who's.

Speaker 4 (43:09):
The one that I'm going to count on? I clock
it real quick, wear the exits. I clocked that real
fast too.

Speaker 6 (43:16):
That is a great thing to do. Where is clocked
the exits, or especially on an airplane to count the
number of seats because think about in an emergency, if
the lights are done, you know how many seats you
can count forward or backward to get to thee.

Speaker 4 (43:31):
When you guys fly, do you dress up or do
you wear like clothes that you can survive in. I
wear clothes you can.

Speaker 2 (43:36):
Survive, clothes that I can survive in. Yes, you would
think I'm going on a mission. Me too, it's closed
to survive.

Speaker 4 (43:45):
Yep.

Speaker 6 (43:45):
Always I wear close.

Speaker 5 (43:47):
I've started doing that. I used to dress up and
criticize why is everyone wearing these sweats? What's wrong with
these people? But now I'm the opposite.

Speaker 4 (43:55):
I layer It takes to the chic, yez know.

Speaker 3 (44:00):
She yeah to survive exactly because if I if we
crash on an island, I like get cold at nights,
so I want to put the flannel on. And maybe
it's hot in the daytime, so like I'll need to
take the flannel off. So I have a tank top.
And I always make sure I have tennis shoes and
socks with me, like for sure, because I work to run.

Speaker 4 (44:19):
Oh my gosh, you know, like.

Speaker 2 (44:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, your basic cosmetics and some medications, everything
in your bag.

Speaker 4 (44:26):
Yeah, that is. I assume it's going to be a
long trip before I do too.

Speaker 3 (44:31):
I do that, but I don't look at people and
like try to like go, okay, that guy can save me.
This girl is going to be a problem. I don't
do that, but maybe I can't. I do a full
five person clock. By the way, I went to two
hotels this weekend doing a little road tripping around Tennessee.
And by the way, I took all of our great listener.

Speaker 2 (44:48):
Advice with yeah, I like wipe down the little remote control.
I was very careful with what I did with what
and it was a generally great experience.

Speaker 4 (45:00):
Did you unpack or no?

Speaker 2 (45:01):
Yeah, of course not no, no, no, I want to. It
was very very quick and I also signature move. I
brought close to nothing so it makes it real easy.

Speaker 5 (45:09):
That helps a lot, though, But say, look, I love
that our listeners are giving us any I know on
how to move forward. And I actually like these topics
for future. If our listeners out there want to weigh
in on how you dress for a flight in the future,
would love to hear about that. And do you look
around at the audience and judge not the audience the
people on the elevator or on the plane. I'm curious

(45:29):
what everyone else thinks about that.

Speaker 3 (45:31):
I'm going to start.

Speaker 4 (45:31):
When you get on that elevator, someone's clocking you. So
who are you? Oh gosh, okay.

Speaker 3 (45:37):
So I'm already afraid of elevators because it's a confined space.
Like I get in and I literally block out. I'm like,
just press the button.

Speaker 12 (45:48):
I love that.

Speaker 3 (45:49):
Well. Coming up at the top of the hour, he's
just sixteen and he's accused of a crime so violent.
Please call the scene unimaginable. Keep it right here, True
friend tonight.

Speaker 2 (46:09):
And welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're
talking true crime hall the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here
with Courtney Armstrong and Body Move in Taha, Sam and
Adam also in the house, and if you've missed any
of the first hour, please do not worry even for
a second. You can catch us right after as a podcast.
By the way, you could also join us live eight

(46:31):
eight eight three. One crime please do having you live
is it's like a secret thrill or leave a talk back.
You just download the iHeartRadio app top right hand corner,
push the button boom. It's like leaving a little voice
memo and then we will play it on the show.
Or of course you could always dm us. So Joseph

(46:52):
Scott Morgan is not going to be with us for
the rest of the evening. We have some tech issues,
so he will be circling back. But Courtney, this case
with this young man who has murdered his stepfather is yes, councionable.

Speaker 6 (47:08):
Yeah, so it's a I'm gonna give a quick trigger warning.
The following segment does have some graphic details, so if,
for example, you are with a child or don't care
to hear them, it's a good time to tune out
for a few minutes. We actually got a dm you guys.
It's from a listener named Michelle and it reads, Hey,
did you guys hear about the Staten Island decapitation case.

(47:31):
He faces several charges including second degree murder and weapons possession.
Apparently there was a blender involved and he allegedly used
a hammer to remove the brain.

Speaker 4 (47:43):
Oh my god.

Speaker 6 (47:45):
Yeah, so this uh sort of the top line is
there's a nineteen year old man named Damien Herstel from
Staten Island and he indeed is accused of decapitating his stepfather.
Damien has pleaded not guilty to murder during an in
person court appearance that happened on Friday. Right now, he

(48:07):
remains under psychiatric supervision as well as suicide watch in
this moment. So, this despicable crime happened back on October sixth,
so about a month ago, and police discovered Damien's forty
five year old stepfather, Anthony Caslapro. He was dead. He

(48:29):
was indeed decapitated inside the home that he shared with
his stepson and at that time her still, Damien her
Still was taken into custody and very very sadly, this
was after his sixteen year old sister had found the
body and alerted their mother.

Speaker 7 (48:49):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (48:50):
Yeah, another sister finding a body of a parent and
while a stepparent. I mean, this is terrible. Oh my god,
I no, I never heard.

Speaker 2 (48:59):
This in your referencing, Sarah Grace Patrick, right, And I
think it's what you're thinking of the young teenager who's
I believe six year old sister happened to find her
deceased mother and stepfather, which is so tragic. What a
grisly tale. Courtney Armstrong, Yeah, it really is. And he

(49:22):
had a hearing on October seventeenth. It was his first
in person arraignment, and again at that point, he pleaded
not guilty. During the hearing, he showed very little emotion.
He stared blankly, and seven family members quietly attended the hearing.
I can't imagine what everyone is going through to have to,

(49:47):
you know, be I mean, oh my gosh, it's kind
of unimaginable.

Speaker 3 (49:52):
I mean, obviously he's getting psych psychiatric help of some kind.
I mean, normally mentally well people don't do something like this.

Speaker 4 (49:59):
Just my opinion, obviously, but oh my goodness.

Speaker 6 (50:02):
Yeah. So, and the details of this, I think we're
going to leave because Joseph Scott Morgan was going to
walk us through it, and I don't think we need
to say them now. I think we understand sort of
the lay of the land. And yeah, his next court
appearance is November twentieth, so we can break down the
forensics when Joseph Scott Morgan is back with us. So

(50:26):
in the meantime, first of all, please give us a
call eighty eight to three one crime. We'd love to
hear from you, whether it's about your Halloween weekend or
any cases you think we should be following, or really
anything crime related or adjacent on your mind. And in
the meantime, body, you were going to fill us in

(50:49):
on just sort of some broad stokes of different categories
of evidence, because there's so many.

Speaker 3 (50:56):
Right, Yeah, when so, you know, we get this forensics
dump in Idaho, and when I was looking at some
of the images of the evidence that they had collected,
like the physical items like the water bottles and you know,
the knife sheath and whatnot, I noticed that, you know,
there were some areas circles and it would say things
like trace material collected. And then you know, on social

(51:21):
media people were talking about, oh, this must be the
DNA or whatever. So I kind of wanted to talk
about the different kinds of evidence and what you know,
what trace evidence is and whatnots just great, you know,
and so I put together very informal Listen, I'm not
you know, Joseph Scott Morgan.

Speaker 4 (51:40):
Okay, So this.

Speaker 6 (51:41):
Is yourn brocking movie.

Speaker 4 (51:46):
So there's there's different categories of evidence.

Speaker 6 (51:49):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (51:49):
So there's physical evidence, which is you know, like a
tangible item, and that would be like a gun or
a knife. It's something you know, larger clothing things, prints,
it's something tangible, all right. Then there's biological evidence, and
that is something from living sources, and that would be
like hair, right, saliva, some sort of bodily fluid. Blood

(52:14):
would be semen, sweat, right, that's biological wet sometimes sweat. Sure, absolutely,
that's a great one. Yeah. And then there's trace trace
evidence okay. And trace evidence is microscopic transfers. Okay, so
it usually would be something like soil for instance, Uh,

(52:36):
tool I almost said tool marks, don't know what that.
I'm thinking fibers, like you know, the the microscopic fibers
from a shirt or a sweat.

Speaker 2 (52:47):
Word with a knife in my hand, so as I'm
you know, taking a swing the sweater, you know, little
fibers might jump on and like leave some markings. Maybe
on the harp, maybe on my victim in this you know,
weird horrible example. But like that's a trace that's like little, yeah,

(53:08):
almost like particles.

Speaker 3 (53:10):
Yeah, And tray sevens is important because it usually connects
a suspect to correct the particular item. Okay, so that's
why it's tray s evenus is very important, but it's
microscope okay. And what's interesting is DNA touch DNA, which
was left on the sheath of the Brian Coberg case,

(53:30):
which is why I'm talking about this trace.

Speaker 4 (53:32):
What do you think? Let me ask you guys, let's.

Speaker 6 (53:34):
Do pop quiz.

Speaker 3 (53:35):
Okay, yes, DN, is touch DNA biological or is it trace.

Speaker 2 (53:45):
Biological because the biology it's biological. However, in the case
of Idaho, it's a sort of tricky question because because
of the snap, there's like some layering of traceeness that
couldn't be there. But it was only a droplet, which
would mean I think biological.

Speaker 17 (54:08):
Ding ding ding taha, Oh my gosh, taha of like
bodies school of this is bodies bodies, you know, prime lab,
crime lab. Like, So yeah, it's both and and it's

(54:29):
it's because it's so minute, but it's still biological.

Speaker 4 (54:33):
So it's it's but it's core biological.

Speaker 3 (54:36):
At its core, it's biological, but it's also trace because
it's minute. Okay, so yeah, Now, if it was blood,
let's say, and because you can get DNA from blood, right,
if it was blood, let's say, that would be strictly biological.
But in this, in this instance touch DNA, it only
leaves behind, you know, a couple hundred skin cells. Let's
say that's it's so minute that it is also traced.

(54:59):
And I I did. I did make sure of that too,
by the way, because I wanted to do a pop quiz.

Speaker 7 (55:04):
Oh, I love it.

Speaker 2 (55:05):
I thought the question add on question, I think I
know the answer. But if it is trace evidence, like
for example, on the sheath. So there are some photographs
that have been released in the Cobroger recent data release
and dumb and we see the sheath for the very
first time, and yes, it's confirming what we know about

(55:26):
the DNA droplet. But also there does seem to be
some speckles of blood. So because there's speckles, the assertion
is that it's active. It's active splatter or even stink
saying this, it's so slight, it's like little you know
slight side side slide slide. If you picture paint right,
like if you were having the smallest little hint of

(55:49):
paint on a wall, if you flicked at it, it's
like that small would that be considered trace dna uh No,
that would be by a logical it's because it's not microscopic.

Speaker 4 (56:02):
You can actually see it with.

Speaker 3 (56:03):
The human eye, right like when you look at a
photo of it, you can see right. So that's all biological,
and it is important to know you bring that up,
that was you know, good, It's important to know that
the speckles are mainly I think we said this in
segment one, but for those who just joining us, the
speckles are. The primary contributor was Kaylee Gonsolvus and the

(56:23):
minor contributor was Madison Mgan.

Speaker 2 (56:26):
And also the sheath was ultimately found slightly under Madison
Mogan and her.

Speaker 4 (56:31):
And the comforter right.

Speaker 2 (56:32):
Yes, so it was I found that so disturbing, particularly,
you know, I can't quite explain why that really hit me.

Speaker 4 (56:38):
But you're not alone.

Speaker 3 (56:40):
So we've gone over physical which are the tangible items,
Biological which are those living sources like sweat and whatnot. Trace,
which We just kind of went through pattern pattern are
like shoe prints, tire marks, things like that, tool marks
even right, we talked about tool marks quite a bit,

(57:02):
you know in some of the cases that we've covered
on the show.

Speaker 4 (57:04):
Or a body like leaning on a wall. I'm not sure, actually,
Bonnie Leading, if.

Speaker 2 (57:10):
A person was leaning on a wall, this actually has
happened where their sweater takes into the wall and some
of the particles from that creates a print.

Speaker 4 (57:20):
So oh, I've never heard of that.

Speaker 3 (57:21):
That's interesting, don't I think that would be more trace
with the fiber. Well maybe I don't know. I've never
heard of that, but that's interesting. But another lettern.

Speaker 6 (57:31):
I just want to say that that is such an
interesting area to me because in different crimes so piked
in for example, there was such a dearth, so little, little,
little evidence that one shoe print became very important and
people make their whole careers like one of the or

(57:52):
the top shoe print expert of the FBI, for example,
was really important in that. And you know, other people
tires like it's an amazing science it is.

Speaker 3 (58:03):
And you know, in the nine stalker case out of California,
Richard Ramirez, the shoe pattern was so important. It was
such a well guarded secret and it got out and
it almost ruined the case.

Speaker 4 (58:15):
I can. I can talk about that for a really long.

Speaker 3 (58:17):
Time if we ever need, because you know, of course,
you guys know Gil Correa was my family friend. He
was the detective on that case, right, And Dianne Feinstein,
who was the mayor of San Francisco, accidentally, without realizing
how important it was, released the shoe print. Anyway, I
can get into the weeds on that, but it's very interesting.

(58:38):
So pattern is so important, and again it's the shoe prints,
tool marks, things like that. Digital digital evidence, right, this
is a new thing. GPS logs, emails, pictures, text messages, pings,
things like that. That's digital evidence and that's kind of,
you know, simple. And then there's testimonial evidence, witness testimony,

(59:00):
eyewitness testimony. And you know, I saw Stephanie Leidecker go
into Courtney's room and yell at her. That's witness testimony.
I saw it happened, okay.

Speaker 6 (59:13):
Or ear witness. That's another I'm trying to There was Stephanie.
I don't know if you recall there was one case
from Crazy and Love. So it was one of fifty
two cases, but everything revolved around ear witnesses.

Speaker 4 (59:27):
Yeah, which is trouble is it here is?

Speaker 2 (59:29):
Yeah, yes, it's a and yeah we you know, listen
to human brain can also play tricks. So and I
wish is what a valid important piece of the equation.
We all saw those movies and shows. Hey, let's line
up a bunch of people who look similar to the
description and then the eyewitness will decide. But you know,
remember eyewitness with glasses, without glasses, in the dark, not

(59:53):
in the dark in a corner.

Speaker 4 (59:55):
Were they afraid? Were they not afraid?

Speaker 2 (59:57):
That's why Joseph Scott Morgan and forensics and what you're
describing right now. Biological trace evidence things that are indisputable.
They cannot be wrong. It's science, right, So when you're
seeing a digital footprint added by trace evidence, added by
biological evidence, that's a narrative that's hard to dispute in

(01:00:19):
the courtroom, whereas sometimes an eyewitness or an audio witness
really can get a lot of cross examination.

Speaker 4 (01:00:28):
Yeah, they can be cross pretty hard, right.

Speaker 3 (01:00:30):
And so then we're going to round it up here
with documentary evidence, which is like recorded info like on paper,
like contracts, journals, diaries, letters, you know, if you know,
because sometimes those things can be admitted in the documentary. Yeah,
the letters, perfect example. That's a great example. And then

(01:00:53):
finally I'm rounding it out at the very end, the
visual aids, like, for instance, they did a dollhouse of
the Moscow the King wrote home. That would be a
visual aid to assist in describing the layout of the
home and whatnot. And that is demonstrative evidence. And that
is bodies crime lab. Such a crime.

Speaker 6 (01:01:14):
You did, such a great job. You you crushed it.

Speaker 4 (01:01:19):
I have a feeling you're going to crush a crop
pot just as much. Yes, the sky is bright, as
is your future.

Speaker 3 (01:01:29):
My friends, if we want ever, if we ever lose
Joseph again, I'll explain how all this can be collected.

Speaker 6 (01:01:38):
Stand by and listen. Keep standing by for after the
commercial break, because coming up we have more talkbacks and guys,
we received one from our youngest listener yet. Oh yeah,
let's just say we were called a little off guard.
Keep it here. True Crime Tonight, True talking to true
crime all the time.

Speaker 2 (01:02:06):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeart Radio. We're
talking true crime all the time. Happy Sunday, everybody.

Speaker 3 (01:02:12):
We made it. We are.

Speaker 2 (01:02:14):
We are going to have an exceptional week. I'm claiming
it right now. Who's with me?

Speaker 3 (01:02:18):
Raise your hand? All double yeah? Look at that. And
I haven't got a couple of thumbs up. So let's
do it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:26):
We're going to have an amazing week. The talkbacks are awesome,
by the way. I'm Stephanie here with Courtney and Body
and the crew, and we are jamming through some of
your talkbacks. Let's go to one right now.

Speaker 10 (01:02:38):
Okay, this is very from Utah, and I'm kind of
like you're your talkback earlier that talked about wine and
it's easy to call back. Well, I'm costing in the morning.
It needs you to call back putting my tenu wise
face on for my costume. You're talking about you've got
done talking to the black people don't like ghosts podcaster,

(01:02:59):
and then you're done to ghost And if you've ever
had a ghost, Okay, So, like quite a while ago,
I actually thought I had a ghost at my house.
And you know what, it was like super friendly like
stuff would be moved, pictures would be off walls and
then against the floor below and just all this fun
on the thing. So I thought it was a ghost

(01:03:20):
just having all this fun. Well, turns out because it
was actually the neighbor directly behind me, breaking into my
house when I wasn't there and going wine. He was
actually taught in the neighbor's house like in the morning,
because they thought that he thought that everybody was gone
and one of the kids was actually homesick. But yeah,

(01:03:41):
there's a thought he always learned breaking into my house
going through I that's it. Way better a friendly ghost.

Speaker 3 (01:03:49):
Oh my god.

Speaker 4 (01:03:50):
Stop. So somebody said she thought it was a ghost.
Somebody's moving things around in her house. Do you know
what that makes me think of?

Speaker 7 (01:03:56):
What?

Speaker 3 (01:03:56):
No?

Speaker 2 (01:03:57):
Cornd Oh, he was forever like snaking in a glass
door at a neighbor's house.

Speaker 3 (01:04:03):
Yeah, b the way, remember the dateline episode the lady
said the lady said that she you know, uh her,
her toiletries were all lined up differently, and then the
the he was looking at her medicine cabinet and like
spreading rumors about her at school, and like, oh my god,
how scary. I would I would rather have Casper the

(01:04:24):
friendly ghost than the neighbor breaking in and moving the
things around.

Speaker 6 (01:04:30):
Maybe, So glad you're okay, Yeah, I'm sorry that happened.
We're so glad you're okay. I hope this guy is
caught very tightly.

Speaker 5 (01:04:41):
I don't know if I live alone, and I'm not
sure if I would jump to the ghost conclusion immediately though,
like things were shifted, I would say, oh, it must
be a ghost.

Speaker 4 (01:04:49):
I think I would think it.

Speaker 6 (01:04:50):
Was just my memory.

Speaker 4 (01:04:51):
I'd be like, oh, I probably I would assume I
was not able to find my glasses.

Speaker 2 (01:04:55):
Which is always always we could get better eyeglasses.

Speaker 7 (01:04:59):
I blame on myself.

Speaker 6 (01:05:00):
I'm going to get you those.

Speaker 3 (01:05:02):
I need.

Speaker 2 (01:05:04):
No, I just ned to like wear like a headband
or something with my glasses like stuck in it, you know,
like webbands or something a little bit more obvious where
I can maybe tie it to my wrist.

Speaker 3 (01:05:15):
We'll get you a fancy necklace, a fancy necklace that
you can, you know, look at like jewels that I
can buy eyeglasses to get.

Speaker 6 (01:05:24):
Sophia, I'm like somewhere else. No, we're not. We're finding
a different solution.

Speaker 7 (01:05:29):
I don't think. I don't like at all.

Speaker 4 (01:05:32):
No, No, we're gonna get on that table. Stat let's
go to a talk back.

Speaker 18 (01:05:39):
So I was just gonna talk about the by passion controls.
I want shed an experience where I saw somebody and
what they would do? You cook so quick on Google
Match and then they would go to I delaying the

(01:06:02):
good to see flights on Google and then they were
able to and then it went to the website and
they were able to chart. You'll whatever they want, YouTube
or anything. Yeah, the show five.

Speaker 4 (01:06:17):
Okay, first of all, we cannot have little kids listening
to this show. It's not appropriate.

Speaker 2 (01:06:22):
First off, there's no judgment, no shame. But who is
this nugget calling in with a very good tip by
the way, the greatest tip we've had yet. So yeah,
but I don't know high or low.

Speaker 14 (01:06:33):
Five.

Speaker 7 (01:06:33):
But yeah, I have mixed feel I have really mixed.

Speaker 3 (01:06:36):
Emotions right now. But does he say he was nine
years old?

Speaker 6 (01:06:40):
He sounded yeah. I didn't say anything, But this show
is I would say PG thirteen, PG fourteen.

Speaker 2 (01:06:48):
It's maybe an R minus sometimes yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:06:52):
Yeah, sotimes.

Speaker 4 (01:06:54):
But you know, I don't know what to say.

Speaker 3 (01:06:57):
Okay, So he's saying, he's saying that he saw somebody
one time bypass the parental controls through the map software
on your on your phone, and it's so valid because
you know when let's say you open it up and
you would like, oh, let's look at Hawaii, and you
go to the maps, you go to Hawaii, and then

(01:07:17):
it pops up search for flights on Hawaiian and you
click it and it opens, you know, the Google pricing
for Hawaii. And then now all of a sudden you're
on the internet right now, All of a sudden, you
have a browser open and you can start searching for something.
So it's a very valid Oh.

Speaker 7 (01:07:30):
Now, I'm concerned that we gave that info away to.

Speaker 4 (01:07:37):
Tips from the mouths of babes like one. That was
the point.

Speaker 6 (01:07:43):
That's just what the Internet expert Kati told us is
that that's right, whatever complex block comes on, there's some
adorable cherubic child saying how to get around it. The
body in this instance is searching for a flight specific
or literally opening any I just do you know if
there's a correlation or is it just deafening.

Speaker 4 (01:08:05):
I actually don't know. I really don't. I'm not I'm
not familiar with this. I'm looking right now. Okay, so yeah,
it's very interesting.

Speaker 6 (01:08:15):
Yeah, Stephanie's over there investigating what do.

Speaker 2 (01:08:18):
You I mean, Well, he's while he's doing right while
you look when you when you click on any location
on a map, it's like a map. I'm looking for
a certain street or a certain town. In my case,
it's like Coopertown, whatever this is, and I just clicked
on it, and yeah, suddenly you get to a browser

(01:08:39):
and it has recommendations in that area, and then you
bypass that and just put in whatever you want into browsing.

Speaker 4 (01:08:49):
Very tip, I know, but but you shouldst even.

Speaker 7 (01:08:54):
Thank you for the tip.

Speaker 4 (01:08:55):
This is a double sided. But respond how sweet? How sweet?

Speaker 3 (01:09:00):
See at the end, do you think you love the show?

Speaker 4 (01:09:02):
I was like, oh my gosh, that is so adorable.
I want to eat him for lunch.

Speaker 3 (01:09:05):
I know.

Speaker 4 (01:09:06):
By the way, for president, let's like, let's this one
for president.

Speaker 3 (01:09:09):
Let's give him a job like with you know, at
NASA or something exactly.

Speaker 4 (01:09:14):
Because that was very smart, right, very very smart. Thank
you so much for the talk back.

Speaker 6 (01:09:18):
Do we have an age appropriate talkback?

Speaker 7 (01:09:20):
Yeah, let's get a good one an adult please.

Speaker 6 (01:09:23):
Hi.

Speaker 19 (01:09:24):
This is Andrea from Indiana and I just finished Virginia
to phrase, I just finished her autobiography, and you guys
need to keep talking about Epstein.

Speaker 2 (01:09:34):
I think it's so great.

Speaker 19 (01:09:35):
That you talk about him, and we need to keep
asking where the files are, and we need not bat
down until they tell us who these bad people are,
so they need help them accountable.

Speaker 4 (01:09:46):
It's pretty sickening.

Speaker 2 (01:09:47):
Yeah, I mean, obviously, don't get me started, but I
have a sinking suspicion something's going to pop up this week,
you do idea? Yeah, I listen, and I'm not sure
jump in. This is not based on any like secret information,
but I will say the recent announcement of Prince Andrew
being evicted and stripped of any and every possible title

(01:10:10):
he's ever had. And by the way, there's like a
very substantial list of titles that Prince Andrew has, and
in certain parts of the world there's you know, streets
and monuments in Andrew way. All of these things are
being up for discussion. It seems as though this happened
again weeks after this book. Don't forget we had gotten

(01:10:31):
excerpts of this book. Then he personally decided to withdraw
his title. Then frankly, his brother was like not having
it this past week and stripped him of everything and
evicted him and his ex wife Sarah Ferguson. By the way,
the daughters are free and clear, their titles remain untouched.

(01:10:54):
But it does seem to be a real big fall
from grace. He is literally no longer a royal in
any way. You know, he was born a prince and
into the royal family, but he is none of those
things any longer. And many people in the UK there's
a lot of chatter about.

Speaker 3 (01:11:13):
People wanting real.

Speaker 2 (01:11:16):
Wanting some like real arrests, and they want justice for
him to be a little bit more criminal, not just
entitle or a change of residents or the inconvenience of
having to be you know, publicly humiliated to some extent.
I mean, this has been going on for so long.

(01:11:37):
This is not super new information though, right, so it's
really only after Virginia Guffrey, the original victim's death. Is
are people leaning in? But why has Andrew taking the
hit so big and hot? Is he the fall guy?

Speaker 3 (01:11:51):
Do you think?

Speaker 7 (01:11:51):
Like?

Speaker 3 (01:11:51):
Is he probably was mentioned like.

Speaker 4 (01:11:54):
Eighty times in the book, right, so is he the
most mentioned?

Speaker 3 (01:11:57):
Do you think?

Speaker 2 (01:11:59):
I think he's he is up there, But it paints
a pretty grisly picture of many and I have to
assume that there's a little bit more coming in order
for Andrew's brother, you know.

Speaker 4 (01:12:14):
The king.

Speaker 2 (01:12:16):
Yeah, really to sort of say, we're going to actually
make this a little bit harsher and a little bit
harsher and a little bit harsher, because people are really
asking for a criminal investigation and some real accountability there.
If these things are true, this guy's a straight up pedophile,
and if this were anyone else other than a prince,

(01:12:36):
you know, the accolades of a prince, they would be
serving some real hard time.

Speaker 3 (01:12:41):
And if any of the.

Speaker 2 (01:12:42):
People in the book are being covered for. There was
also these new allegations regarding multiple banks that are now
really being brought into the conversation in a very meaningful way.
That is where we all should be looking right now.
I think we should get our brains out of a
list names really and start really following the money, because

(01:13:05):
if the allegations are accurate, and millions and millions of
dollars were in fact approved and looked upon, knowing full
well that Epstein was attached to these air quotes trades,
that is a very serious thing. So who was allowing
for that, especially post his original conviction. We're dealing with

(01:13:26):
somebody who was guilty of piphelia and you know, sex
offense large. You know, that is undeniable. So you know
Andrew's downfall also comes because he was so like, oh yeah, I.

Speaker 4 (01:13:38):
Never spoke to the guy.

Speaker 3 (01:13:39):
Again, well you.

Speaker 2 (01:13:40):
Kind of did, and oh well, here's the video of
you walking with him, and oh, here's that phone call.

Speaker 4 (01:13:45):
Oh where here's the email? Like where no one's playing
that game anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:13:49):
So you can't deny that you were unaware of the allegations.
Then you can't deny that you were unaware of the conviction.
Then you can't deny that you were unaware of the
magnitude of this. And I think it's the air quotes
magnitude that we all had to be really paying close
attention to right now. I think Prince Andrew is getting

(01:14:10):
the most attention right now. And I think there's a
lot of covering up happening elsewhere.

Speaker 6 (01:14:16):
I don't even think a lot of the stuff with
the banks that I do not have any of my
facts and figures. But if we circle back, yeah, the
allegations aren't even allegations. I mean, there is.

Speaker 4 (01:14:26):
No it's fact.

Speaker 2 (01:14:27):
It is I don't want to.

Speaker 4 (01:14:29):
Y for tomorrow, but it's fact.

Speaker 2 (01:14:32):
And we're talking about the level of money that was
being exchanged from a person who has no financial background
Jeffrey Epstein. How that is happening period from the banks
that we all bank at myself specifically, I mean everybody's
been mentioned somehow. Okay, these are major financial institutions. How

(01:14:56):
is it possible that we are allowing that level of
financial trading and sharing to happen amongst a set of
scenarios that is around sex trafficking of young women throughout
the world. How does that happen? And I think there's
a lot of accounts disguised to something else or something

(01:15:18):
or no, it might appear that it wasn't disguised as
much else. It was under Epstein and through Epstein, JP
Morgan BAA. It has now been brought into it Deutsche Bank.
The list is extremely harrowing. So why, I guess, is
the question. Why are all these people involved with shady
banking and shady transactions around one of the largest air quotes.

(01:15:42):
Sex offenders who may have been operating a honey potting
luring scheme meaning when I say honey potting, meaning luring
influential people to a place to put them on video,
to use that said video against them in large worldly
and financial matters that affect us on a day to

(01:16:04):
day basis. It's less about the original person. It's the
fact that it could be happening, and likely is real time.
The players are still playing that like the pieces are
still on the board.

Speaker 4 (01:16:18):
No one's taking the pieces off.

Speaker 2 (01:16:19):
We're going to take off Prince Andrew, who, frankly, who
cares about his damn titles?

Speaker 4 (01:16:24):
I love the Royals.

Speaker 2 (01:16:25):
I'm a big fan of the Royals. I study the Royals.
I respect the Royals. Who cares if Prince is this
of Prince of that? Do we care about? Does Andrew
bring him that much to the party?

Speaker 3 (01:16:35):
No?

Speaker 4 (01:16:36):
So, okay?

Speaker 2 (01:16:37):
So and he gets kicked out of this big house
to a less big house?

Speaker 3 (01:16:41):
Do we care? You know? King Charles is going to
still give him a stipend.

Speaker 2 (01:16:46):
Not much is going to change other than the public
humiliation of it all, which, by the way, I feel
for his daughters. That I do, I genuinely do. That's
who's getting humiliated. Andrew will keep going on doing his thing,
I would assume. But what about everybody else who allowed
these things to take place?

Speaker 4 (01:17:05):
Why and how are we stopping it from happening? Right now?

Speaker 3 (01:17:09):
You've given us a lot to I mean, that was
a lot of that was like an information dump.

Speaker 4 (01:17:13):
I was unexpected. I'm talking about an informent. No, it
was great. I mean I didn't know anything about this stuff.
But it's all fairly recent.

Speaker 3 (01:17:20):
I know.

Speaker 2 (01:17:20):
We were not meant to cover this. We'll cover it
tomorrow though. More okay, but these are the things I'm
thinking about.

Speaker 4 (01:17:25):
Well I'm thinking about them now too, So you give
me a lot to think about.

Speaker 3 (01:17:29):
Well, keep it right here. We're going to do some
more talkbacks. We can't wait to dig in together. Keep
it right here. True Crime Tonight, We're talking true crime
all the time.

Speaker 2 (01:17:47):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Lydecker here with
Courtney Armstrong and Body Move in.

Speaker 4 (01:17:56):
Courtney is bringing in the hot moves right now on
the Sunday night. That was like you are fully standing
right now by the way. She's wearing a hoodie with
the hood up and doing.

Speaker 2 (01:18:06):
A full body dance, which is awesome. Yeah, so good,
It is so good. So yeah, we were just talking
about the Royals. We'll put that to bed for a
hot second. I promise we did. We got a little
caught up in the Megan Markle Harry of it all
during the break. I'm so curious what you guys think
before we taint the waters. But Courtney and I have earned.

Speaker 4 (01:18:29):
Yeah, I'm not earned to what direction.

Speaker 2 (01:18:32):
You'll have to ask yourselves and then give us a
talk back and then we'll follow back.

Speaker 4 (01:18:37):
But speaking of, let's go to a talkback right now.

Speaker 11 (01:18:41):
A two Crimes nineteen Ainsley calling from Canada. I tried
to be earlier, totally muddled up my words. Will here's
take two? Yes, First off, I wanted to say thank
you for this week's episode on in Cells. Send it
to all my friends, teachers or whoever app kids. I
think it's such an important topic to bring to light.

(01:19:02):
This issue actually really hits close home for me. I
actually worked in the office building where the Toronto van
attacked when Alex Menassian and Incel, who was later charged
with Harrisman, drove down Young Street and killed eleven people
and also injured fifteen others. I followed that case ever since,
and I also hope that the judge who presided over
it refused.

Speaker 12 (01:19:21):
To say his name.

Speaker 11 (01:19:23):
I totally admired that. Anyways, my question is is that
I'm part of the online gaming community and I noticed
a lot of misogynistic or maybe insul tight comments floating around,
and as a woman and someone who's seen the consequences
of that kind of ideology firsthand, I'm really concerned about
how easily people, especially young men, can get drawn in

(01:19:43):
and radicalize.

Speaker 15 (01:19:45):
So I just.

Speaker 11 (01:19:46):
Wanted to ask if you have any advice for someone
like me, someone who's gaming and might occasionally be interacting
with these people who hold those kind of youth What
can I do or say in these moments that might
actually help, even in a small way, both for them
and for society. Anyway, thank you again for signing the
light on this. It really means a lot to me.

Speaker 4 (01:20:06):
Thanks Bi Wow Ainsley.

Speaker 3 (01:20:10):
That was a great love you.

Speaker 6 (01:20:12):
Thank you so much.

Speaker 4 (01:20:13):
Thoughtful.

Speaker 6 (01:20:14):
Yeah, you know, the gaming world, we and and body
will speak from personal experience, because I don't game. I
bout out it, you know, I never bout it in
actually really but yeah, but honestly, it's unbelievable the amount
of of you know, just atrocities that women face online,

(01:20:37):
particularly gamers, and really just hate against women. So all
I can say is I've been shocked at the statistics
of it and body can speak to the personal.

Speaker 11 (01:20:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:20:47):
And the issue too is that, you know, in a
lot of these games, you have to communicate with the
other players, and you usually do those things over a
voice chat of some kind, whether it's discord or in
game communications.

Speaker 4 (01:21:01):
We used to use team speak back.

Speaker 6 (01:21:03):
Of the day.

Speaker 3 (01:21:04):
Ventrilo was another one that people use. And you know,
like I said, you have to communicate like I need
a heel heel me now, you know, or I'm gonna
shoot that fireball that I've been saving up. You know,
those kinds of things, or you know, call of duty
or something. Oh, you know, go flank the side. You know,
you have to communicate, and so you can't just hide

(01:21:24):
that you're a woman in a lot of these In
a lot of these cases, they know as soon as
you open your mouth, and once that happens, it's.

Speaker 4 (01:21:31):
All hands on deck.

Speaker 3 (01:21:32):
You know. If there is those kinds of people in
the game with you at the time, you're going to
hear about it. And there's only a couple things I
can recommend. Number one, the ignore, ignore or block, you know,
and the games that I played slash ignore and then
the player name you can block those people and literally
never play with them again.

Speaker 4 (01:21:51):
Are they aware when you do that? Yeah, they're a
little signal like I just blocked you.

Speaker 3 (01:21:57):
Well, they just they'll get a whisper back saying you
can't communicate with this player because she's blocked you or
they've blocked you.

Speaker 4 (01:22:05):
Another thing you can do is.

Speaker 3 (01:22:07):
Uh, in some cases, they'll be like a white knight
in the chat and they'll usually stand up for you
as a woman. It'll be another man, but then they
get picked on for being a white knight, so to speak.

Speaker 4 (01:22:20):
It's a really it's a really tough situation.

Speaker 3 (01:22:22):
But another thing you can do, uh, you know, besides
ignore is ignore it, you know, and and show them
with your skill and your gameplay that you're not to
be messed with, you know what I mean. It's kind
of a it's really kind of just a tough situation.
And I hate to say it, but move to another game,

(01:22:43):
you know, or another the answer, well, another one into
the bar.

Speaker 4 (01:22:48):
Don't walk down no, I know, I know.

Speaker 3 (01:22:50):
But one thing you can do though is instead of
playing with strangers like some sometimes you go into a
lobby and you play the game with whoever comes in.
In other cases, you you're in a guild, and you
always play with the same people over and over and
over again. And that's what I do. I play with
a guild and so or when I was, I don't
play anymore. But when I did, I play with the
guild and it's.

Speaker 4 (01:23:09):
Always the same people anymore.

Speaker 7 (01:23:10):
I don't have the time.

Speaker 4 (01:23:11):
Too busy. I'm too busy. Yeah, but is very upset
right now.

Speaker 3 (01:23:19):
He can sense my voice and my frustration, you know.

Speaker 4 (01:23:26):
But yeah, I a guild is a good way.

Speaker 3 (01:23:28):
And like I'm the kind of person that's just like,
I can't you know what, I'm just gonna go to
a different server. I don't want to deal with this guy,
So I just leave the server. So when I say
play another game, I just mean go to another server,
go to another game, instance, check another.

Speaker 4 (01:23:41):
Group out, check because you're getting a new sample of people.
Most of the time.

Speaker 3 (01:23:45):
What I do is when I do play in lobbies
and whatnot, is I just ignore that person.

Speaker 4 (01:23:50):
I just don't.

Speaker 3 (01:23:51):
They're not allowed to communicate with me anymore. But which
affects the whole team, you know, But.

Speaker 2 (01:23:55):
Which is interesting because even making in cells, one thing
that we learned kind of the hard way. I would say,
in the early stages of the podcast in Cells is
that we had a female, a female producer who was
leaving a lot of messages and doing reaching out to
either certain members or people who are identified as an

(01:24:16):
in cell and it was a real crickets. Nobody was responding,
literally crickets until a man stepped in and started doing
the exact same thing, and they got instant by the way,
great man, Like they were both an extraordinary team. But
it was so wild, like we never took that into
account that a female producer would get zero response and

(01:24:40):
then to the exact same people with an equally efficient,
extraordinary male producer, it would be instant, Yeah, instant response,
Yeah how about you.

Speaker 4 (01:24:54):
And it's so, you know, I'm a little.

Speaker 3 (01:24:57):
I'm feeling a little like I'm giving the like excuses
like just leave the server just you know whatever. No,
but I mean the idea that it's better to stay
and fight, like and show them, like as a woman,
what you're capable of, right, Like that's the ideal.

Speaker 4 (01:25:14):
But in situations where you're playing a game and you
just want to have fun, no, you're.

Speaker 2 (01:25:17):
Not there to like be fighting break up say in
the real world and having I want people to think that.

Speaker 3 (01:25:24):
I don't want people to think that the answer is
to back down. That's all I'm saying. Like it's just
you know, in a game situation, you know, it's just like,
come on, I don't want anyone like.

Speaker 6 (01:25:32):
Kis, nor should anybody have to stand in the game.
I mean, that's what it's been infuriating is multitude of
just you know, listening to interviews or you know, speaking
to some people, girls are saying, you know, I stopped
gaming because I would get rape threats every time I
went online.

Speaker 3 (01:25:54):
But what are you supposed to do? Like that's that's
the choice right there?

Speaker 2 (01:25:58):
Which body is putting such a perfect spot like on
are you supposed to say, Well, you know, I'm going
to stand my you know, stand up for myself here
publicly and on my only free time where I'm choosing
to have you know, a little gaming space to have
a little fun in my life. I'm going to go
toe to toe with this guy who's threatening to rape
me online. Or is it smarter and more efficient to

(01:26:21):
just like put a pin in that guy and like
go to a different server with a different sample of people.

Speaker 4 (01:26:26):
Yeah, obviously that makes more sense.

Speaker 2 (01:26:28):
Like it's a but again, like it's such a small
example of what happens on the daily right, there's no
clear answer, and that's a tough one. And body you're
certainly not giving the advice to, like don't stand up
for yourself.

Speaker 4 (01:26:43):
This is like it's a game.

Speaker 6 (01:26:44):
Yeah, we're talking about it.

Speaker 4 (01:26:45):
Yeah, this is not like in the real world.

Speaker 2 (01:26:47):
We're talking about gaming, and like, if you're leaning in
to have a gaming fun time, you don't need to
have to be thinking about this huge filter that you know,
we have to think about in the real world.

Speaker 3 (01:26:59):
Right, It's it's why everybody's in the gaming world.

Speaker 4 (01:27:02):
Yeah, you kind of go there to escape. And then you're.

Speaker 3 (01:27:03):
Exactly you called the dumb bee and a stupid bee
and a ce you know, see today and you know,
you get threats of you know, the R word and
what you know, it's just waw, Yeah it's.

Speaker 7 (01:27:18):
Quickness.

Speaker 5 (01:27:18):
Not that I'm suggesting this, but are there any sort
of female groups that like, you know, all the women
like banding together and this sort of I mean not
I think.

Speaker 3 (01:27:26):
I'm sure there is, I'm and but a lot of
those things where you know it's it's you know, specialized,
those players are pretty really really really good, and they're
not gonna wantlet to like play with me, you know
what I mean? Like, okay, but but maybe maybe there
is I don't know, but you know there's there's there's
a lot of female gamers.

Speaker 4 (01:27:47):
But you know they just keep their mouth shuts a
lot of time too.

Speaker 7 (01:27:50):
It sucks.

Speaker 4 (01:27:52):
It just sucks. Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:27:53):
Well, Annesley, we can't thank you enough. Yeah, let's go
to another talk pack.

Speaker 7 (01:28:02):
Yeah were you sure? Did?

Speaker 14 (01:28:03):
Hey, ladies, Stephanely from Ohio, I just had a quick
question for a body. I am planning my best friend's
fortieth birthday for Vegas in the spring, and I wanted
to know what you suggested for you know, some ladies
that are not quite into the clubbing scene and we're
not twenty one anymore. I would just love to hear

(01:28:25):
your thoughts and as to what we should spend.

Speaker 4 (01:28:28):
Our time on and what would be fun.

Speaker 14 (01:28:29):
Thanks, ladies, love you bite.

Speaker 4 (01:28:32):
You know it's so funny.

Speaker 3 (01:28:33):
People ask me all the time, what do you do
in Vegas? I'm like, I don't do anything.

Speaker 4 (01:28:36):
You know, you're a spa.

Speaker 3 (01:28:38):
But you know that's a good place is It's an
area it's called Area fifteen and it's it's you know set,
it's close to the strip we'd probably be staying. And
it's kind of like an immersive experience. It's kind of
it's not attached to a casino. It's a standalone building.
It's easy to get to, and it's they have a
thing called uh was it nyell Wolf, and it's like

(01:28:59):
a supermarket. It's all brazy and like that. It's kind
of like an escape room. There's a bunch of hidden
rooms and you have to like look at certain things
in a certain order and to open the door. And
also they serve they have a full bar. Oh, and
so it's still it's still an adult experience, and they

(01:29:21):
have other stuff too. It's it's a whole building of
like immersive art, but it's fun. It's not like art
that you go and you stand and you look at
and go, oh, that's really beautiful.

Speaker 4 (01:29:30):
It's like art. It's art that touches like.

Speaker 5 (01:29:32):
It's almost like I think I've seen videos. It's almost like, yeah,
already kind of feel Yeah, it's very bright and colorful,
and it's very bright.

Speaker 3 (01:29:39):
Colorful, very very like SOUF like a lot of selfie opportunities,
you know, like really cool backgrounds and things like that,
And usually when people come in from out of town
to Las Vegas, because when you live in Las Vegas,
you don't.

Speaker 4 (01:29:53):
Go to the Las Vegas Strip and like walk, you
just don't go.

Speaker 3 (01:29:56):
It costs like forty five dollars to park, Like nobody's
doing that that lives here, you know, So when people
come into town, that's where that's where I usually take
people as Area fifteen only because it has nothing to
do with gambling. You can still get margarita if you want.
You can still you know, maybe garden if you know
what I'm talking about. You know, you can still do
all the things that let you have fun and and

(01:30:18):
have and have joy.

Speaker 4 (01:30:19):
And also it's.

Speaker 7 (01:30:20):
Just it's really cool because escape.

Speaker 3 (01:30:24):
It's a really nice escape and there's all kinds of
different things to different experiences.

Speaker 14 (01:30:28):
You know.

Speaker 4 (01:30:29):
It's Area fifteen. I would I would definitely check it
out and if they want, they can.

Speaker 3 (01:30:33):
Give me some free tickets that i'd be great to.

Speaker 4 (01:30:37):
The Sphere is probably fun.

Speaker 3 (01:30:39):
Oh oh my god, I saw the Wizard of Oz
at the Sphere, you guys.

Speaker 4 (01:30:43):
It was so amazing.

Speaker 3 (01:30:45):
Oh my god, it was so cool. Yes, definitely check
out the Sphere. I think no doubt is doing. Oh
residents see there starting really soon.

Speaker 4 (01:30:55):
And that would be a fun thing.

Speaker 3 (01:30:56):
Fun what an experience at the Sphere though, if you
could see Wizard of Oz, I definitely recommend it is
so cool.

Speaker 5 (01:31:03):
It's on my bucket list. But I hear the tickets
are not that low price.

Speaker 3 (01:31:08):
So I had like nosebleed seats and our tickets were
like eighty bucks. I mean, it's expensive for a movie,
but you're paying for the experience.

Speaker 4 (01:31:15):
It's such a cool place and I loved it. It
was so cool. But I would Yeah, the Sphere would
be a great a great recommendation.

Speaker 2 (01:31:22):
And then get a massage, go to one of those
Grecian spas there. They have the best spas in Vegas. Yeah,
you can get a massage and a soak in a
hot tub, oh juvenation, and.

Speaker 7 (01:31:33):
A free cocktail at the casino. Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:31:35):
I doubled down on the spas part Stephanie, So all
of the you know, engaging and interesting and actually newsworthy
stuff that body just shared. And a massage and also
just you know, when I've gone and had you know,
more adult Vegas not a dirt bag. I've had plenty
of all experiences, but adult. It's just like pick a place,

(01:31:57):
pick a spa, decide what kind of food you want.
You will find the most excellent of your kind. And
just I just lean into the luxury.

Speaker 3 (01:32:06):
And if you if you go to the Paris, go
yes for me, mon amigabe. It's where the Eiffel towers
and the sight seeing as we like the window area,
the sight seeing, the people watching, and you get to
see the fountains from the The food is it's French, it's.

Speaker 2 (01:32:27):
The Eiffel Tower. Is that the recommendation. I want to
do this.

Speaker 7 (01:32:30):
I want to do this.

Speaker 3 (01:32:32):
You can have you can have brunch and you can
have croissants and like brunch pastries and then you get
and the French press coffee and sit outside and can
you go on a gondolier.

Speaker 4 (01:32:43):
You can do that the Venetian that's a different casino.

Speaker 2 (01:32:46):
But yeah, but the at the Venetian is sort of
like while everybody is shining, you're like in the go.

Speaker 3 (01:32:54):
Very small world.

Speaker 20 (01:32:55):
After all, you're kind of in it, but like nobody
else is there. You're all a little annoyed that you're selfie,
and even the gondolier is like, I know, this is
sort of weird, but.

Speaker 3 (01:33:13):
I'm from Detroit, you know, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:33:15):
Right, Niees, It's already ending. Oh my goodness, this is
the wrap up music listen. Thank you for the beautiful
Sunday night ladies. I love you to our original talk back. Yes,
it is a joy. Working here is a joy. We
will see you tomorrow on Monday. Oh, nothing but trouble
stay sayd bye