Surviving Epstein: Haley Robson’s Story — Plus the NXIVM Cult

Epstein survivor and victims’ advocate Haley Robson joins us for a conversation about her experience, the intimidation that followed, and her fight for transparency. Former Smallville actress Allison Mack breaks her silence about her role inside Keith Raniere’s NXIVM cult — admitting what she once refused to face. Plus, we dive into newly filed evidence in the Delphi murders. Tune in for all the details.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here, of course,
with my two favorite true crime mates, Courtney Armstrong and Body.
Move in and listen, everybody. It is Thursday, November thirteenth,
and we have a very stacked night of headlines and
a really important guest who are so honored to have

(00:42):
with us tonight. We have Hayley Robson, who we've all
been following very closely here. She's a survivor of Jeffrey
Epstein's sex trafficking ring. If you haven't been following, of course,
he is the convicted pedophile who is everywhere in the
new right now and the outrage over this continues, and

(01:05):
we are hopeful that survivors and any victims anywhere who
have suffered from some sort of abuse have their watershed moment.
And Haley, please, thank you. We're so happy to have
you here. Also, just a jump ahead, we'll be discussing
the Nexium cult. I don't know if you all have
been following that, but the actress Alison Mack, who was

(01:28):
embroiled in this is speaking out for the very first time.
Will also be unpacking that new developments in Delphi body
in the Delphi murderer's case. Richard Island, the accused and
convicted murderer in that case, has filed an appeal and
is bringing forward some never before seen evidence. Will that

(01:49):
make a difference? Obviously we have the person closest to
it right here with us. And also later in the show,
we'll be discussing the last minute clemency of Oklahoma's trem
Main Would He was scheduled to be said to death
today and at the very last minute things change, so
lots to unpack with that as well. We have an

(02:11):
actual stacked night. So first and foremost, Ladies, I love
you when I'm so happy to be with you today,
And Hayley, thank you for joining us at our proverbial
kitchen table. We know you have been really in the
spotlight and in the center of this storm, and the
work you were doing and the fight you were fighting

(02:32):
is so important and we are so grateful that you
were doing it. It is not easy I could imagine,
so having you here with us it frankly means the world.
So we want to hear it all. And if anybody
has any questions eight eight eight three one crime, please
jump in join us live, or you could always leave
us a talkback. Just download the iHeartRadio app and boom,

(02:54):
leave us a message, or hit us up on our
DMS and listen. The hope is that no hush money
can quiet this any longer. There is no secret document,
there is no email. There is nothing at this point
that can stop this from happening. The truth, I believe
will come out, and I think we're all feeling very

(03:15):
hopeful that that's the case. And I turn it to you, Hayley,
where should we begin with all of this? First and foremost,
that was well, let it go for a hot second. Yeah,
you know, there's been so much right I can imagine. Yeah,
how do you feel?

Speaker 3 (03:35):
I feel like the more the time goes by and
the more evidence and documentation and more information that gets
leaked or comes out, I feel more vindicated. It's just
a little bit more closer to the finish line of justice.
So I'm pretty hopeful and anxious, but hopeful.

Speaker 2 (03:53):
I bet, I bet. Did you think this day would
be happening so soon? Are you surprised by the level
of our rage on all sides of this conversation that's
seemingly happening at a fever pitch today more than ever?

Speaker 3 (04:09):
I mean yeah, And the problem is it's so hard
to process everything because literally everything changes day by day,
which it's great, I guess because it means ranking progress,
but it's also stagnant. So it's like, if we can
just you know, light that fire under their butts and
get them going and just release everything that needs to
be released, you know, the faster we can get to

(04:31):
the discovery part. So well, it feels like.

Speaker 4 (04:34):
The momentum right, you know, the momentum is definitely going
right now, and that's definitely moving in the right direction.
And you guys are like powerhouses. You are not stopping
that train right like you're going to keep going. And
you know, I would say ninety nine point nine percent
of America is behind you, I mean one hundred percent
behind you, I know, agree at least Yeah.

Speaker 3 (04:56):
Yeah. I actually just did an interview with Nicole Wallace
for MSNBC. Yeah, yeah, and she brought up the stats,
and it was like eighty one percent of like Americans
are behind us and believe us and support us and
are on board with the whole transparency. Unfortunately, the stagnant

(05:16):
rest of the percentage is in the White House.

Speaker 5 (05:20):
The.

Speaker 2 (05:22):
Powers that be. But even you know, Speaker of the
House Mike Johnson, who seemingly has been you know, a
small piece of maybe some of this hold up, seems
to also be changing the tune today even he is
really recommending that this vote happens next week for full transparency.
That does seem to be a change in in tone,

(05:43):
and even the staunchest supporters of either the administration MAGA supporters. Again,
this is not a political show. We are just trying
to get some answers right, and it seems like one
thing that can unite all of us at a time
that that is needed, probably more than ever, is the
fight for justice for you, and man, it gives me

(06:04):
chills even as I think about it.

Speaker 3 (06:07):
But that's like the frustrating part to all this is
it's such an easy side to choose, Like there's literally
nothing but benefits to all of this for everyone except
for the people that are implicated, which makes it so
confusing to find out who the good guys and who
the bad guys are because everyone's wearing a mask, everybody's
stories are changing. There's so many The government has literally

(06:29):
created chaos and dishonesty throughout this investigation because of their
lack of So it's just it's exhausting.

Speaker 2 (06:38):
It is exhausting, and it's all really tiring.

Speaker 4 (06:40):
It's all politics, and you know, in I think again,
most Americans are tired of that.

Speaker 2 (06:46):
They're tired of the politics.

Speaker 4 (06:47):
Justice is not supposed to come in the form of politics,
like in any capacity. So I think most Americans are
absolutely standing by your side, and we want transparency. We
want people to pay for what they've done to these children,
including yourself. And you're right, this should be an easy
side to pick. Crimes against sholder should never be tolerated,

(07:09):
no matter who's doing them well.

Speaker 3 (07:11):
And that's such a good point that you make, and
just to double down on that. You know, when we
showed up to the Capitol in September, we were not
showing up as our adult self. That was the fourteen, fifteen,
and sixteen year olds that are unhealed within us that
we're trying to now advocate for and so you know,
like I said, I don't understand why I have to

(07:31):
go to the Capitol or try to explain to the
people in power that make the laws how pedophilia should
not be tolerated and neither should trafficking or exploitation. It's
getting tone deaf.

Speaker 4 (07:43):
Yeah, it's crazy making that. That was such a powerful moment.
By the way, if you guys at the Capitol, we
all we talked about it for a long time, how
powerful that was. I mean, your voice definitely was heard.
It made a huge impact because I had never really
paid a ten all that much to the Epstein story

(08:03):
until that day, until I until I was like, oh
my god, these are real people, like oh my gosh,
because it was also abstract prior, but you guys made
it so real and you definitely got you hooked me
in for sure.

Speaker 2 (08:16):
For sure.

Speaker 3 (08:17):
Well, I think that was deliberate. I think the government,
you know, because we don't really hear a lot about
New Mexico. Unfortunately. I hope that changes. Oh, you know,
because you had the Zoro ranch out there, and you
know there are victims that were trafficked there, and even
Theresa Fernandez from the Female Democrat Caucus that's that's that's
you know, she represents New Mexico. Even she mentioned it,

(08:37):
and I said, that's a shame. That should be something
that is highlighted because New Mexico was just as affected
as New York and Florida and the Island. And it's
just asinine that we haven't touched that area yet. But yeah,
I mean, I think that was the point is if
they keep us separated, we're powerless, you know, but together,

(08:57):
you know, power and numbers. And when you get a
group of women that are fut up and have been abused, denied,
justice ran through the mud. I mean, everybody has a
breaking point.

Speaker 5 (09:09):
Everybody has a breaking point, and man, talk about the
power numbers and the power that you guys are putting
forth and the results that are now beginning to come.

Speaker 2 (09:18):
Finally, this is true Crime Tonight.

Speaker 5 (09:20):
We're on iHeartRadio and we are so thrilled to be
talking to the incredible Haley Robson. Not only is Haley
a survivor of convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein, Helly's a powerful
advocate in supporting victims of trafficking and Haley, listen, you've
spoken about your experiences the years of intimidation that followed,

(09:41):
and of course your ongoing mission to educate the public
and support survivors and to push for transparency all of that,
and just once again, we couldn't be more honored to
have you here. If you have a question for Haley,
we're at eighty eight three one crime. Are you comfortable
taking us back to sort of beginning of how your
story unfolded?

Speaker 3 (10:04):
Yeah? Absolutely. I I went to Royal Palm Beach High School.
I'm from Pombach, Florida. You know, I was sixteen years
old and I was recruited by Tony Figueroa, who was
a twenty year old adult male and who, come to
find out, he brought several girls and was dating Virginia Goufrey,

(10:30):
you know. And I was recruited and I picked up
him in La Mancha, which is like a neighborhood. I
picked up another sixteen year old classmate, and when we
drove to Jeffrey's house, I was basically groomed in the car.
What to you know, what to allegedly expect, what I
was supposed to say, what I was supposed to do,
And then of course, you know, when I get there,

(10:51):
that's not like what happened. Clearly, it was obviously a
lot more than what was originally explained to me. And
you know, that was probably one of the most horrific,
probably one of the most horrific hours of my life,
being in that room with Jeffrey and just being fearful

(11:16):
because I had nowhere to go. You know, it was
a room inside of a room, and the door was locked.
All the adults were downstairs, and I was just like mortified, terrified, shocked,
like I it was just like an out of body experience.
It was so difficult to articulate, you know, even as

(11:37):
an adult, it's hard to even articulate. But I ended
up I ended up being abused by him for two years.

Speaker 2 (11:44):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (11:44):
And I was in his orbit for two years, and
I escaped because I moved to Orlando. I moved to Orlando, Florida.

Speaker 2 (11:55):
And thank god you did. And by the way, just
to kind of re emphasize that steen years old, I
mean we're in high school, baby, I mean yeah, I
mean Virginia Goufrey's post, you know, post death memoir, you know,
called Nobody's Girl. It's funny, even as I'm hearing you
speak right now, this could be anybody's girl certainly could

(12:15):
have been It could have been anyone. You know, you're
in high school. You know it's, oh, here's a couple
of bucks are going to do a massage or whatever
the story is. It is so easy to get tilted
in a certain direction and then suddenly you're in way
over your head and what a scary place that must be. Baby.

Speaker 3 (12:37):
I mean, it was probably the most difficult time in
my life because before I met Jeffrey, I had been
raped at fifteen years old. It was my first sexual
experience with a man like ever, and he was twenty
one or twenty two, and that was horrific for me
because it was just brutal. So when I'm at Jeffrey,

(13:00):
I was kind of already not doing so well and
there were things you know, that him and I thought
was like yeah. And I had conversations with him about
my rape and about my health and my family, and
he would always ask how my parents were. And he
was always super charismatic and personable and friendly. And that's

(13:21):
what makes the abuse so difficult, was the grooming and
the way he made you feel about yourself and just
he really played that super hero, but he just wanted
to be everybody superhero.

Speaker 2 (13:36):
And you bring up an interesting point too, just to
touch on that for one second and jump in if
you disagree. It feels like he specifically, and maybe this
is the case for so many abusers, it's like you're
you're the perfect victim. And if in fact, you've already
had a traumatic experience and you're struggling and you're vulnerable,
and your your guard is already you know, conflicted and

(13:58):
you're confused, you just get it's like the perfect storm, right,
And if somebody who's older and sophisticated and influential, I mean,
this was a grown ass man Epstein coming in and
you know, frankly, you know, we think we're so smart
and strong when we're sixteen years old, but you look back,
you were a baby, and this man spotted that on you,

(14:21):
let's be honest, and was like, Oh, that's the perfect
person who won't cry as loud, And I think that's
the cycle that is sort of the blueprint. Yeah, definitely targeted.

Speaker 3 (14:33):
Yeah, definitely, he had a knack, like he was really really,
really calculated and incredibly smart to cater the abuse to
all of us to suit our knees. For example, like
you know some of the girls team from broken homes
where their parents, you know, didn't make the kind of

(14:53):
money and you know, or they were strung out on
drugs or you know, things like that. And he knew,
he knew how to navigate that, he knew how to
make us need him and.

Speaker 5 (15:04):
All as you say, the grooming, and it sounds like
just tailored to each one just to be as insidious
as possible to everyone involved. Well, listen, please stick around.
We're thrilled because Haley Robson is staying with us and
we have.

Speaker 2 (15:19):
A lot more to talk about.

Speaker 5 (15:21):
We're going to talk about a lot of things that
are upcoming and what has been and anything else Haley
wants to And if you want to join eighty eight
three to one Crime True Crime Tonight, We're talking true
crime all the time.

Speaker 2 (15:43):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker and I'm
here with Courtney Armstrong, Body Move in Taha, Sam and
Adam are with us as well. It's an important night
at a really important time in this country. And Hailey
Robson is here. She is a survivor of Jeffrey Epstein's

(16:08):
horrible sex trafficking. Let's call it a ring, right. He's
a convicted, you know, pedophile, And if you haven't been
just paying attention to the news, it is really heating up,
and more and more correspondence that involve very high influential
people is being released from Jeffrey Epstein's estate. It is important,

(16:30):
it seems as though it's being withheld, and the question
is why. And Hailey Robson is living at real time.

Speaker 3 (16:38):
She has.

Speaker 2 (16:41):
Been becoming an advocate now and dedicated her life to
helping others who were in the exact same spot that
she found herself in at sixteen years old, which is,
you know, unfortunately, so so common, and first and foremost,
we want to just take the shame out of anyone
who's listening right now who has a story to share

(17:03):
or who have also been a victim of any kind
of abuse. You're in a really safe space and it
is not your fault. And Haley is a living example
of that. She's heading to Capitol Hill and has now
dedicated her life to better next steps and listen, it's
going to heat up in the next few days and

(17:24):
next week might be very real so we all really
need to be paying attention and Hailey grooming. We talk
about that so much on this show because again, it's
like so easy to get sucked into scams and schemes
and then that escalates to sexual abuse and violence, and
then it perpetuates, and then the cycle continues and all

(17:44):
the things. Can you tell us a little bit about
where grooming fits in all of this for you and
what do we need to know?

Speaker 3 (17:55):
Well, you know, the thing with human traffickers and abusers,
they don't have to use force anymore, you know, because
it's really psychological warfare. It's the cohersive control, it's the threats,
it's the intimidation factors, it's everything else besides the actual

(18:21):
physical violence. But the best way I explain cohersive control
and what grooming looks like, think about domestic violence, and
often the two are very much intact with each other.
They intertwine. But think of it this way for those
who don't understand. In domestic violence, it is said that

(18:41):
the victim goes back seven times. Seven times. In between
those seven times, you're gonna have explosive arguments and you're
going to either be physically abused emotionally abused, verbally abused.
It's all abuse, you know. And then it's having the

(19:04):
person who abused you, which is often your spouse or
your boyfriend, significant other, whatever, apologize to you and keep
coming back every time they call you a bad name
during an argument where they belittle you, or they throw
your trauma in your face, or they degrade you because
of your trauma. That is all abusive behavior. And imagine

(19:27):
doing that for a year on end and then having
the person can come back, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, it
won't happen again. And then it's like the reward, Let's
go to dinner. They take you to dinner, and now
it's turning into trauma bonding with my abuser because now
we're laughing about the fact that he just punched me
in the face and called me a bad word two

(19:48):
days ago. And you don't even realize it's happening because
at that point, your heart is so far in and
your brain through narcissistic abuse domestic violence, I find and
I've read statistics all domestic violent abusers are narcissistic. That
is an actual statistic. I've read that. So it's it's

(20:14):
not realizing that it's happening, and you're so far in
that you don't know how to pull out, and your brain,
the neurons in your brain legitimately get challenged. They the
neurons get destroyed, and it takes two years after narcissistic abuse,

(20:34):
usually domestic violence, where your brain starts to rewire neurons.
Now apply that to Jeffrey Epstein. Apply that to a
human trafficker. Apply that scenario without the force. Remember, because
domestic violence is not always physical. Now apply that to

(20:55):
someone who is sexually abusing you. And then when you
start to pool away because you know something's not right,
then comes the threats. I'm not going to help you
get your green card to be a citizen, or I'm
going to call the art gallery that you're in college

(21:15):
for and I'm going to tell them to take away
their you know, the financial aid, or take away you know,
your scholarship. That is all incorporated with Epstein. He didn't
need to physically abuse us. That is grooming, That is
rooming to its core, and it happens not just with
sexual abuse survivors. It also happens in domestic violence. You

(21:39):
are being groomed to take the abuse. You are being
groomed to normalize that your brain literally rewires. So of
course it takes a while to get out of that environment.
It does not happen overnight. And then the other battle
to all of this is when we do get victims
or survivors out of those situations, we have got to

(22:01):
as a community and as a society, we have to
welcome them. We have to put down our armor and
our judgments and our criticism, and we have to look
at them as human beings and we have to help
them fit into the community and help them to feel belonged.
Whether it's giving them resources, sending them job applications, we

(22:26):
have to help them so they don't go back and
become a statistic. And when you're groomed for years at end,
whether it's in a domestic violent relationship or I was
with Jeffrey for two years, there is no getting out overnight.
It takes years and guts to be able to compute

(22:51):
this is dangerous. I got to get out.

Speaker 2 (22:53):
And on top of all this, you're a child, yes, yeah.

Speaker 4 (22:56):
I mean on top of your bring all your napses
and whatnot are forming still and this is happening to
you as a child, and you have to have somewhere
the strength to get out of it. How do you
even do it? In your case, like you said, you
moved right and.

Speaker 2 (23:14):
The most influential guy in the world, I mean, Jeffrey
Epstein by all accounts, this is like not up for
dispute had more pull and play in the world than
maybe most humans period the end exclamation point. So imagine
trying to It's hard enough to get her own get
away from the Yahoo down the street, who's you know,
a zero. What about when the person is so hyper

(23:38):
connected and let's not forget the honeymoon phase at the beginning,
when they're like, I believe in you, I'm going to
give you a future. You're so bright, you're so smart.
You know, a young person is holding on so tight
to that identity they can feel so good. So the
downfall of that is so scary and wretched, for sure.

Speaker 3 (23:57):
It is. It is definitely probably when when you know,
when you're in it and you're you're on the battlefield
and you're going through the psychological warfare, you're not seeing
it as you should be because you're not thinking of clarity,
you know, and in order to get and in order
to get that clarity, you have to separate. Just like
with the domestic abuse of partner, You're not going to

(24:19):
get the clarity until you get away from that person
and you and you let your body and your nervous system,
you know, regenerate and just chill. And that can take
a very long time, you know. It's it's very it's
a very difficult thing to navigate. And if you haven't
been through something like that or experience that, A, I'm

(24:42):
super envious, and B it's very hard for you to
be sympathetic when you can't understand.

Speaker 2 (24:51):
Very funny, I think more people than we think can understand,
and that's not a good thing. But I think there
are more people listening right now than maybe have even
considered even in their own heads or in their own lives.
And yeah, it's like perspective is very powerful. That's why
it's so important that we're talking about it, because until

(25:11):
you're hearing it from somebody else, sometimes you don't even
see it for yourself. Right, this is your crime.

Speaker 4 (25:17):
Tonight on the radio, I'm Body Movin, And I'm here
with Fortney Armstrong and Stephanie Leidecker, and we are talking
with the fabulous and incredible Hailey Robson, who is a
survivor of sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein, and we want to
hear from you.

Speaker 2 (25:30):
Give us a call eighty to eight thirty one Crime. Hailey.
You know I've been paying attention, I've been following everything.
How does it?

Speaker 4 (25:37):
I wanted to ask you. You are very strong, but
I have to tell you. How does I have to
ask you?

Speaker 2 (25:43):
How does it feel to sit there and listen to
congressmen and senators in the White House and whatnot call
all this a hoax and it's something that you lived through?
How does that feel? Like?

Speaker 4 (25:55):
Yeah, it's a great question because I feel rage and
I'm not even the victim of this, and it gives
me such rage. Say, because I'm looking at you, I
see you like how how how does that feel for you?

Speaker 3 (26:09):
I mean, it's really hard because initially I am very
angry that anybody can look me in my face and
into my eyes and not see the pain that exists
within my body. It's it's a very difficult place to
be at when the one person you want the most

(26:29):
support and the most understanding from is the same person
that turns their back on you and just happens to
be the most powerful person in the world. But he
is a mirror of Jeffrey. I make no bones about it.
He is a mirror of Jeffrey. And I say that
because the abuse that we're enduring right now from our government,
specifically this administration, is no different than what Jeffrey did.

(26:51):
Gas let us, lie to us, made us feel that
he was here to be our superhero. You're going to
help us, You're going to release these files, you can,
you can painted on it, and then to have and
especially because I've been very public about my political stance,
you know, it's it's betrayal, I feel.

Speaker 2 (27:10):
But you're a Republican, you you you've been very forward
about that.

Speaker 4 (27:16):
It's disappointing, right Like, It's just I mean, it's so
hugely disappointing because I too put these people on the
pedestal for some reason, and when they disappoint us, it's so,
you know, heartbreaking.

Speaker 5 (27:27):
But yeah, I gotta say, you use disappointment, which it is.
It's disgusting, it's dismiss it. I mean, that was disgusting
to actually watch that. But a new day dawns. So
what are you doing. You're going back to the Capitol
next week?

Speaker 2 (27:43):
Is that right? What's happening there?

Speaker 3 (27:46):
So Tuesday, November eighteenth, at nine am, there's going to
be a press conference with Rocanna, Thomas Matthew, and Marjorie
Taylor Green. So I fly out Monday, and I think
I'm coming back like like Wednesday afternoon, and it's just
going to be a huge push to release more fought
you know, to you know, heat up the kitchen a

(28:07):
little bit, put that fire in there, add some gasoline
to that. Yeah, and you know they need to put
a little pup in their stuffs. Enough is enough, you know,
let's do this. Let's get the ball rolling now. But
the government's back and intact. That was pointless for those
fifty or forty days, however long it was.

Speaker 2 (28:23):
I think it was all connected. Was that part of this?

Speaker 3 (28:26):
Shut up?

Speaker 2 (28:27):
It was? Can you just I've been listen, don't get
me started. But it's all connected, right, We heard it themselves.
The administration admitted yesterday there are no coincidences in politics,
and what a bummer. And boy doesn't seem as though
that's going to work. Because what happens in the dark,
it comes out in the light.

Speaker 3 (28:50):
Well, I you know, it's like I keep saying, I
don't know what you think is going to happen, but like,
we're not going anywhere, and I'm just going to go
out on a win and say that the last thing
you want is forty more women to pile up at
the Capitol, angry, emotional set up, exhausted with no bathrooms

(29:10):
to offer us. Right, last thing you want and.

Speaker 2 (29:15):
That the truth. And by the way, there's a whole
country supporting you. And I do think if you haven't
felt it, it is palpable right now. I don't care
who you voted for. I mean, we hear it all
day and again we have the benefit of being hearing
all sides of the equation. It's like no one's feeling
it anymore. And the cover up days are done. Yeah,

(29:38):
it does feel like the genie cannot go back in
the bottle any longer.

Speaker 3 (29:42):
Yeah, No, it's too late for all that. There's nowhere
left to go except for up and forward.

Speaker 2 (29:48):
And by the way, the sixteen year old version of
all three of us are just bear hugging the sixteen
year old version of you so deeply, so deeply, all
of us, every one of us in Taha, A lot
of them. I don't know why but no, I'm emotional.

Speaker 5 (30:07):
I know we all are cry but I mean you're
on the prairial You're actually you are you are doing
you are you know, as you said, pouring some gasoline
on this fire that needs to be lit and lit
big and you know it's it really is incredible.

Speaker 2 (30:24):
But you know, the force of the human will can.

Speaker 4 (30:28):
Seeing everybody in the you know, the the those steps
that day at the Capitol and seeing all those women
and by the way Democrats and Republicans standing together, Oh yeah, Maga,
that was like a moment for me, Like I was like,
oh my gosh, the country is healing, Like I can
feel it.

Speaker 2 (30:46):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (30:46):
It was very powerful, Haley, Like, it was very very powerful.
I watched it several times. It was very powerful. I
can't wait to see what happens here.

Speaker 5 (30:56):
We need to thank you so much for joining us, Haley.
Your courage, your advocacy is inspiring beyond. We are grateful
for all of the work you're doing. And anyone who's
interested in supporting Haley Robson, who should be everybody as
well as all the other survivors, can continue to apply
pressure to their political representatives and demand transparency and you

(31:21):
love learning a lot more about Haley's great good work
at the survivors ink dot org.

Speaker 2 (31:29):
We love you go get them kid and wow, yeah,
Hailey Robson what a super stud who is you know,
kind of really light it up. She is making the
change that will hopefully change things generationally. Talk about legacy,
you know, we're talking about making your mess into a message.

(31:50):
And again she is so strong and mighty, and it's
like just again a reminder that you know, just because
someone carries it well doesn't mean it's not heavy.

Speaker 4 (32:02):
Right, And she has the weight of a lot of
us on her shoulders. Yes does she does carry it well,
but yeah, that has got to be heavy. And I mean,
I hope she feels that when she's standing on those
capital steps, she feels you know, the three of us
plus you know everybody else, all the other women out
there with her. I hope she really feels us holding

(32:25):
her up, I.

Speaker 2 (32:26):
Really and holding her hand every step of the way.
Because what a lonesome road this must have been. And
it's a road that many really have also traveled on.
So I feel like this particular case, although worldwide, and
you know the implications are so huge, it is sort
of the quintessential example of what so many experience in

(32:49):
their own personal lives in different ways. And I guess
that's why the outrage is really eating palpable.

Speaker 5 (32:58):
It's palpable real, Yeah, And I have to say, Haley, really,
you know walks the walk in terms of the Survivors
inc Dot Org, which we have so much else talk about,
but it's worth spending just a minute because what an
organization this is. It's a community of survivors who are
helping other survivors, right, and they are offered all kinds

(33:22):
of really actionable things, so from support and empowerment and
life coaching to help get everything back on path a
safe path to healing, to personal growth and just you know,
resilience and helping strength and dignity come back and grow.
So I think that's a really beautiful thing for anyone

(33:45):
who does want to know more.

Speaker 2 (33:46):
Again, the Survivors Inc Dot research. And by the way,
it's not just like a chick thing, right, No, So
many men and you know women suffer from this level
of abuse. But what I find so inspiring is so
many men on all sides of it just jumping in
and saying oh no, solu, Yeah, it's like, and we

(34:09):
experience it here at work and in the studio. Everyone's like,
oh no, no, no, no, that is we have. You know,
the muscle that is now entering the fight is really tremendous.
And I think that does say so much about how
important this particular time is. And listen, it's we have
to all drop the shame. The shame has to be

(34:30):
put aside. You know, think about it. You're a young girl,
it's like, oh, I don't want anyone to know. I
don't want parents to know I'm going to get in trouble.
Or sometimes it's just easier not to discuss something because
you want to move on with your life. So I
have an idea, why don't you bury it for two
decades until it surfaces in some other strange felcocked away?
Little do you know, like so many people around you

(34:52):
have experienced something so similar. But the silence is what's
keeping it alive. And you know, maybe that's the big, big,
the big breakthrough that's maybe happening collectively throughout the country,
is that, like the silence is really the biggest piece
of the puzzle that will not last. We've heard it here,
We've had you know incredible callers who have called in

(35:15):
and shared their toward tale men and women. And it's like, yeah,
when you look back as an adult, you look back
to your whatever thing is, You're like, well, that seems
super obvious that the baseball coach of yesteryear, you know,
told me to do this and some and then they
carry it around. And by the way, I think it's
sometimes even tougher for young boys and men because you know,

(35:38):
it's like it's you know, not macho, and it's silent
and and and and that is just not true. So
if it's not really clear, if you have experienced any
level of abuse, sexual or otherwise, it is not your fault.
Take out the shame and you are not alone, and

(35:59):
there's help. Anybody can heal from anything. I truly believe
that I think we are entering the stage in this world.
I really do. I think the best is upon us.

Speaker 4 (36:09):
I think I think maybe this is the start of
some healing. And and like you said stuff, you said
it so well, silence is what's keeping this you know,
active and going right. And the breaking the silence and
the stigma and the shame and everything that a companies.
That is what's going to help us move forward. So yeah,
I think it's going to be a great point.

Speaker 6 (36:27):
Agree. It's interesting how this country is. We're so divided
amongst you know, everyone, but this is the one issue.

Speaker 2 (36:33):
That seem to be everyone's like.

Speaker 6 (36:35):
Oh, black, white, young, you knowe male, female. This is
like when you're harming children, It's like we all are united, like, okay,
this is a problem.

Speaker 2 (36:43):
I'm not this. Yeah.

Speaker 6 (36:45):
So if anything, maybe it's helping unite forces in a
way that we didn't expect.

Speaker 2 (36:50):
But it's the unexpected, you know, hero's journey, right, and again,
whether you're a child or a grown adult who has
found yourself in a situation that just is eating you
alive inside, we had to let it go. That is,
you know, not helping the cause, you know. And I
think you'd be surprised how many resources there actually are

(37:11):
and how alone you are.

Speaker 7 (37:13):
Not.

Speaker 5 (37:14):
So there's actually one resource I'd like to shout out
and yeah, this is This is actually from the Survivors
Inc Dot org And for anyone listening who needs someone
to speak to, the National Sexual Assault Hotline is a
beautiful thing. It's a hotline and it connects individuals who

(37:34):
have been sexually assaulted with local sexual assault service providers.
They are local, so there are people around the country
who can be connected.

Speaker 2 (37:45):
And you can.

Speaker 5 (37:46):
Call eight hundred six five six four six seven three.
Staff members are trained and they can also help assist
with emergency housing as well. So just to underline what
you're saying, saying, Stephanie.

Speaker 2 (38:01):
That's such a big deal, the emergency house, where do
you go at run? Right? If you're using with somebody
that's doing this to you, what do you Where do
you go? That's or don't you stay? And that's the
problem because you're too afraid and you have nowhere to
go because then you will be holding the purse strings.
Do you have no money? Maybe they're controlling your By
the way, another little tip, you have to stash some cash.

(38:24):
You have to have a little go get go money
you just do. It's so hard to do, even if
it's in fifty cent increments. You have to start putting
those pennies in a jar because you're going to have
to make a run for it and there is some
place to go.

Speaker 4 (38:40):
I did this, uh, this this thing at crime con
where I gave a talk about how animal abuse leads
to more deviant behavior with doctor Chris SOMEHNDI And one
of the things that I learned when I was studying
for this presentation was a lot of the abuse situations
that we're talking about right now.

Speaker 2 (39:00):
Women or men will.

Speaker 4 (39:01):
Stay if they have a dog or a cat because
they can't they can't just leave with their dogs. So
the housing thing, when you said that to me, the
light bulb went off. Right, it's such a big deal.
It is like bigger, It's bigger than you think because
you can't bring your dog to a shelter right right.
They won't leave their cat, They won't leave their dog.

(39:22):
They won't leave you know what I mean. You can
bring your their lifelessly. Yeah, that's their life and they
know that their abuser is going to hurt their beloved
little puppies. Yeah, that is such a big deal. The
housing courtney like huge.

Speaker 5 (39:36):
Wow, So yeah, thank you so that Yeah, help, you know,
help is there and people are ready to jump in.

Speaker 2 (39:43):
Listen, this is true crime tonight.

Speaker 5 (39:45):
We would love to hear your thoughts on everything that
we've been talking about. We're at eighty eight three one
crime and we were just so lucky to have Haley Robson,
survivor of.

Speaker 2 (39:58):
Aed aphile, Jeffrey.

Speaker 5 (40:00):
Epstein and now marching on Congress and making the world
turn the other way. So thank you, Haley. What do
you think?

Speaker 2 (40:11):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (40:11):
Do we go?

Speaker 5 (40:12):
And I'm like, we're a little class.

Speaker 2 (40:17):
A way, and I'm feeling fired up as well, and
I feel pretty intentionally driven to make sure that we're
following this closely. And if anybody has other tips, tricks, resources,
you know, call us anonymously anything like that, because I
do think we're checking on some of the boxes. That's
more common than we think. Where the heck do I

(40:38):
run to? And how do I not let my job
or the people around me find out? It's so embarrassing
when you feel like you're the only one in the
world that's being subjected to this abuse. And by the way,
sometimes you love the person who's doing the abuse, which
is even crazier. And unless you've ever experienced that, it's

(40:58):
really hard to imagine, right. I think that's more common
than we think. Well, as Hally said, average is seven
times yes to leave and come back before many people
are able to, you know, make the final decision to leave.
If you're a kid, you can't leave right kind of

(41:20):
you can run away and by the way, let's also
play the fact that you're with somebody who's potentially very dangerous,
who do you run to? Because you know full well
when you run there, the person whom you've run too
is also in the line of fire. So if you
know you're with a dangerous person, when you land somewhere else,
that person's coming and you know, everyone's like, get a

(41:42):
restraining order like that matters for zero And by the way,
I don't. I'm not suggesting not to get them, but
it's a piece of paper that even can aggravate the situation.
So I think this is more prevalent and common than
people talk about and think. And I think if we
all put our big brains together, which you know anyone listening,
I think we're the smartest audience in the world. I

(42:03):
think we can solve this. And I think part of
it is just openly talking about it without fear and
sha shame. Yeah, shame is the killer of all things.
I think it's the reason for cancer. It could be
it could be changing ourselves, right, Yeah, it starts somewhere
inside and support from others I think makes all the difference.
You just need one friend, so we're there Snowballs. Yeah,

(42:26):
we're in Snowballs. Yeah, we'll be your friend. We are
your friend, right, So there's to have you friends. I'm
glad to have you too.

Speaker 4 (42:33):
So there's another there's another story that I kind of
wanted to get to, and that's a Nixium one.

Speaker 2 (42:38):
Yeah, it kind of so we're talking about over right
goodness is there?

Speaker 4 (42:44):
So there's this cult and they're cult. Well they don't
exist anymore, but they're called Nixium. And Alison Mack she
she's the former small Town or the Smallville actress. She
went to she went to jail for being in this
cult and sex trafficking. And I know that's kind of
like a complicated sentence, but you know this this cult

(43:06):
had had a cult inside of it.

Speaker 2 (43:08):
It was a cult within a cult, okay. And this
cult was.

Speaker 4 (43:11):
Called DOS and Alison Mack was like the you know,
the head recruiter for this cult within the cult, and
she went to goss.

Speaker 2 (43:21):
I'm sorry, I want to make sure I'm here. D
D O S. She was a big deal because she
was an actress on that show. Deal she was I
loved that that wasn't c W back in the day show, right, Ye,
she was she.

Speaker 4 (43:37):
Was like one of the stars on that show. You know,
she was a big deal, and she joined this cult.
You know, she this cult, the president. The reason this
cult existed. They were kind of like a self help
kind of thing, and and you would go to these
seminars and you would buy you know, it's kind of
like a multi level marketing too, right, it's a multi
level marketing slash cult a slash scheme issues.

Speaker 2 (44:00):
Yeah, pretty much.

Speaker 4 (44:02):
Yeah, And so you would go to these you know,
these the self help organization to get professional development and
human potential. And they would offer seminars and they called
these seminars executive success programs. And it drew in a
lot of entrepreneurs, actresses, tons of actresses. I'm a huge
Battlestar Galactica fan, and like the they were like.

Speaker 2 (44:23):
The entire canople. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yeah, it's crazy.

Speaker 4 (44:30):
So you know, it drew all these people, filmmakers, wealthy professionals.
It operated mostly out of Albany, New York, but it
had centers across the United States of Canada. And on
the surface it was just leadership training, empowerment workshops, self
improvement curriculum. But underneath it all, it was a cult
built around Keith Rinier, and Keith Ranier is a con man,

(44:52):
but he is a self proclaimed in the Guinness Book
of World Records for being a genius, had that highest IQ,
and everybody called him Van Guard. If that's not a
sign of a cult, I don't.

Speaker 2 (45:02):
This guy was like narcissistic tendency, already narcissist.

Speaker 4 (45:07):
To start it right, they said he was a world
class problem solver, somebody with this superhuman intellect, and none
of that was true. He fabricated his resume, he exaggerated
his accomplishments. He used Pseudo's intellectual language to maintain control
over all these people that would come to his seminars
and get hooked in by this self improvement. While Alison

(45:28):
mag was one of them, and she created this doss
program per Keith Rinier, the Leader Vanguard, and she was
recruiting women and they would get branded with his initials,
branded with his initials, and it was a humiliation ritual.
He would have sex with these women. She developed this

(45:50):
master slave program. You could only do what Keith wanted. Well,
she just got out of prison and she's talking for
the first time publicly.

Speaker 2 (45:58):
And it's fascinating. By the way. It was fascinating. But wait,
they thought they were getting branded with like an air
symbol or so they did. They didn't realize until after
the facts, until he was brought up on charges when
they were like, oh, I'm out of the colt that
they were he was actually branding them with his initials.

Speaker 4 (46:16):
Uh huh, because it kind of ups like a mountain,
like what the sun set? You know, it's really k R,
which is Keith near scary stuff. Well, she's talking for
the first time. She's got a new podcast.

Speaker 2 (46:28):
Can we continue this after the Let's do it at
my seat? All right, Yeah, we'll stick around. We are
getting right back into this.

Speaker 5 (46:36):
I need to know all about the Battlestar Galactica stars.
And we also have a really stunning last minute clemency
decision out of Oklahoma. We've got that and a whole
lot more true crime Tonight. We're talking true crime all
the time.

Speaker 2 (47:00):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with
Courtney Armstrong and body Move in on a pretty heavy night.
We're talking about some pretty heavy stuff. We have been
unpacking a little bit more about the Nexium cult. If
you guys haven't seen a documentary called The Vow, it's

(47:20):
really really, really good. Yeah, and it follows this Renier
case and there's two seasons.

Speaker 4 (47:26):
There's two seasons and it's really long, so you like
a long watch because I really do I get when
I when I watch something sometimes I want to sink
my teeth into it a little bit. And this gives
you the opportunity. And by the way, it's told from
one of the filmmakers who joined the cult, who escaped,
and he's filming the escape and then but his wife
stays in.

Speaker 2 (47:47):
Oh, the white was still in it for like a
little I had to pair off. Well, the cult leader
is Teeth Ranier. He was like, I think I should
have a camera following me all the time time because
it was so incredibly interesting and important.

Speaker 5 (48:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (48:02):
So this guy had his own little like crew that
he was like somehow, by the way, I don't even
think they were getting paid. He just like somehow had
them following him with a camera all the time, like
this guy making eggs on a walk, Like this guy
was filming himself. That's how interesting he thought, he was, right,
that's how important he thought he was, that he had

(48:24):
a film crew following him all the time, and that
he read ultimately being the.

Speaker 4 (48:29):
Doc he read like The Art of War like once
and thought he was like a genius from it or
something like he just was one of those guys, right,
like this guy and Stephanie's right, he really had a
film crew following him all the time. And the story
of the vow is told through one of the dudes
who was the film crew. So of course he knows
how to film. So he's like, I'm gonna do my

(48:49):
own thing and he makes his own comentary. It's so
good and it's again it's called The Bow and it's
on HBO.

Speaker 2 (48:54):
It's if you're in the cults and stuff like I am.
I love me too. But wait, because it all starts
so normal. That's why I know we get about it.
But well again, hook Line and Synchromere, you know they're
like you empowerment. Oh you want to be an entrepreneur,
I want to be an entrepreneur. Oh you want to
be freak, you want to be smart exactly for Tom

(49:15):
Cruise my Battle Star Galactica. Folks, you know, yes, it's
very enticing and like the baseline tier one intro. All
sounds pretty coosh, it's all pretty kosher until it gets
real weird and now you know everybody and then and
then the door is locked right right.

Speaker 4 (49:35):
And you know Alison Mack who we were just talking
about in the previous segment. She was the you know,
well known TV actress from the show Smallville, and she
joined in two thousand and six during a period where
she knows she was searching for purpose. She was feeling
a little bit lost professionally. She was vulnerable to this
kind of self improvement program right which next Tom offered,

(49:57):
and she joined willingly and full sam ahead. She really
jumped in because at first it gave her purpose, right,
and keith Rynear saw that in her. And by the way,
she's a beautiful woman too on top of it, so
you know, she joined it head first. And again she
was in charge of this doss cult inside the colts.

Speaker 2 (50:19):
She started out.

Speaker 4 (50:20):
She was a you know, she joined up the stripe path.
And you'll learn about this if you if you watch
the show, but it's how you advance within this cult.
You have to wear these little sashes and they're different colors,
kind of like karate.

Speaker 2 (50:32):
Belts, like some of them up stripes like a you
know you're a level yeah, okay.

Speaker 4 (50:39):
But they're like they're like little scarves and they wear
them around so you know who is in charge and
who you got to listen to, who you got to
take orders from. You got to listen to people who
are your coaches, and those are the people above you
in rank, so to speak. And she quickly rose through
the stripe path. She dedicated her life to this Nixium cult.
By twenty fifteen, she was based near second in command

(51:02):
within this doss. Former members describe her as like super manipulative,
completely under Keith Rnar's psychological control, and really jealous about
enforcing obedience to Keith, like she was you know, if
you if you don't listen to what you know, the
Master said, you're going to get a whipping, and that
would happen. People were getting physically abused by by by her.

Speaker 2 (51:26):
By her permission too. It was just you know, complicated stuff. Again,
not making an excuse for that behavior, no, but you
know she was also a victim, right, and this all
falls into the whole grooming thing, and it's kind of
like that very complicated yeah, like you.

Speaker 5 (51:42):
Know, well Maxwell with some accountability, because Alison Mack is
now explicitly stating I don't see myself as innocent. And
for example, on her podcast also she recounts this one
story of coercing a woman into sex with the leader Vernier,

(52:02):
and she describes it now as rape and acknowledges her participation.
So again, accountability is something Gilaene Maxwell does not seem
to have a sash for.

Speaker 2 (52:14):
No and again two other like free things. You know,
this was like you know, air quotes a slightly smaller thing.
You know, Gileien Mac there's thousands and thousands of Epstein victims,
but they say in her case, she was also pretty
young too. She want to know, you're in Hollywood, you're
getting bounced around, you're on a show. Now you're not
on a show, you know, And for you know, this

(52:36):
cult leader, it's the perfect person also to bring into
your web because she was slightly influential because she was young,
and she was pretty, and she was slightly famous, right,
so that made her the perfect recruiter. You know. Sometimes
maybe this is a little bit of where Gileaene Maxwell
may have felt fallen similar. You know, she probably loved
this guy too and thought this is how I'm going

(52:58):
to gain favor. And that's the one only thing I
can say about Galliene Maxwell that I'm so curious about still,
you know, because she seemed to love that Epstein back
in the day, and then he probably discarded her for younger,
younger tail frankly, for fourteen fifteen year old girls. He
liked them real young, and she maybe out aged that

(53:19):
relationship and somehow just like kept the wheels turning and
kept the fuel coming in more girls, more girls, more girls,
and like yet somewhere in that she probably felt validated
by him, which is also so mental. I mean, I'm
not making an excuse for her. I think she stinks
this is for clarity, and I want her to not

(53:40):
have puppies and getting exercise, and I think she should
be serving time in a maximum security prison for twenty
years for being a sex trafficker. I'm not underestimating that.
I'm just trying to unpack how that even happens in
the first place. Well, she, Courtney seems right, now, get
it out.

Speaker 5 (53:56):
Court Come on, I say, you know what today because
there's a picture of her from today and she's sitting
there and she's rubbing Epstein's feet and they're on a
pre chess.

Speaker 2 (54:06):
She's got a chess or cat gran on.

Speaker 5 (54:09):
And I'm sorry because you're like, oh, you know, she
aged out, and I know you're not making an excuses
remote you get it, of course, But however, the cash
and the parties and everything else, she was served very well.

Speaker 2 (54:19):
She was served very well by the way she was.
She was like rubbing his gross feet in that photo.
But I think that also does go to show she's
still sort of like that was her boyfriend at one point.
Those two were dating at some point back in the day,
and then they became like cohorts as opposed to lovers

(54:40):
or who knows, but they weren't girlfriend and boyfriend. Epstein
wasn't marrying Elaine whether no matter what she did. So
when I saw that photo of her rubbing on his
feet as a grown woman and he's just you know,
probably had multiple relations with young women prior to that,
it just showed that she was sort of still under

(55:00):
his spell, this guy. And by the way, I'm just
saying that for anybody who's ever been under a spell, well,
Allison comes definitely under Keith spell. Like he created this
doss basically, how it was It was designed by Keith Rinier,
and it was marketed to other women and when you joined,
and it was exclusively for women. Okay, Keith was the

(55:22):
only man that I realized that I thought there was
some The guy that was the filmmaker was he wasn't.
He didn't even know about it. He didn't, he didn't
know that happened, not until after, not until after.

Speaker 4 (55:35):
So it was marketed for a women only empowerment, like
the sorority kind of thing. And in order to join,
you had to give a police a piece of collateral
to your your recruiter, which in the first level, of
course was Allison. She was the top recruiter. And so
like Steph, say you wanted to join, because you're the
one who would join a colt, right, yes, yes, yes,

(55:56):
If you wanted to join, you would have to take
a naked picture of yourself. Who wants that photo or
something terrible they've already not accepted me in the video.
You would have to video videotape yourself something saying something
terrible about like me or something like somebody close to you,
and then send it and then send it. And that

(56:17):
was what was collateral, because if you ever left, wait.

Speaker 2 (56:21):
So they were blackmailing. This is the signature move. This
is not so non Epstein like, so wait, let me
just make sure I'm tracking this. So this creep rineer,
by the way, if you've seen a photo of him,
you're like nasty girl roadie. So he forces me under
the will of night, like, hey, if you send a
you have to text all of us a naked photo

(56:43):
of you just while saying something really terrible about somebody
that you love, and then because if you get weird
or wayward, we'll release that. It was called one I suppose,
so might have gotten suspicious at this point, Yeah, yeah,
would you maybe I mean naked photo.

Speaker 4 (57:06):
But well, the way they marketed it though, is like
this is your next level.

Speaker 2 (57:10):
This is like you've been in. It's also like freedom,
sexual freedom, and like your body is your gospel and
like go ahead, don't be ashamed. That's also a piece
of this, this particular cult is they were really into
like empowerment of your body. So yeah, get naked, take
some photos. Well everyone did it exactly.

Speaker 4 (57:32):
And your high level coach already you use Alison Mack,
the actress from Smallville that you're like, Okay, she can't
be that bad, right, Yeah, in this way in order.
You know, when you're knee deep in this cult and
you've been in it for years, you know your brainwashed
and you want to please Keith, right, and this is
marketed as a way to please Keith, like, this is

(57:53):
the path to empowerment. This is the high level sisterhood.
This is a secret elite group and you're you're being invited.
Of course you're going to do it. You know, you
have to put yourself in.

Speaker 2 (58:05):
Those sorry, right, that would be red flag too.

Speaker 4 (58:16):
So they would get this collateral and it was a
it was a way to control and then they would
text you you can have you know, three hundred calories.

Speaker 2 (58:24):
Today because they saw your photo and they're like, oh,
she needs to shake a few and super diet, yeah,
super diet.

Speaker 4 (58:32):
And it became whoever your recruiter was was your master
and you are a sleeve. That's what they called it.
This is not my words. And it was a way
to control every woman because you'd have to text your
your master, may I please have a rice cake with
cottage cheese? You may you have permission and then you'd
have to take a picture of like your your food

(58:53):
and she would approve it, it was all control. Well,
finally it all came out. Everyone got arrested. Alison was
one of them, and now she has this podcast and
that's what's going on.

Speaker 2 (59:04):
So I listen. Okay, this is so much to absorb
if you haven't been there, there's a lot. That's a wait.
That was a very good synopsis, high five, well done,
complicated stuff. So my initial instinct in Ava Kaplan and
I were talking about this today when she was prepping this,
I was like, why doesn't she get out of her
prison sentence or her jail sentence and then just be

(59:25):
quiet for a hot minute. We've heard enough from you,
Alison Mack for a second. And why the podcast? I'm
not sure I'm feeling it. And then she was quick
to remind me and I listened a bit to the
podcast that if like she doesn't talk about it and
sort of these grooming tactics, how would we know it. So,
and to Courtney's point, she is taking full accountability. She

(59:46):
is straight up saying this was real, weird. It's very
bad that I was a part of this, you know,
I because of me, this person was actually raped. She
got such a low sentence because you know, she pled guilty,
and there was probably some plea deals, et cetera in
order for that to happen. And it really did change
my opinion because in reality, yeah, I have to kind

(01:00:08):
of give her credit. She did think that she is
actually saying what she did and what she should have done,
and that's how we know how to keep ourselves safe. Well,
listen to her charges.

Speaker 4 (01:00:19):
Okay, it was sex trafficking, forced labor, racketeering, identity theft, extortion,
forced labor, and documented servitude. She pled guilty to racketeering.
She admitted, you know, recruiting all the women collecting collateral,
manipulating and coursing them using threats of the blackmail. She
admitted everything. She expressed remorse, which the judge found credible.

(01:00:43):
She cooperated with prosecutors, although not as seeply as others
would like. You know, there were other people that cooperated
more fully. But she was sentenced to three years in
federal prison. Wow, which is significantly lower, you know, than
what she could have gotten. But it's because she had
the you know, expressions of guilt she felt. According to
the judge, he believed that she was you know, she

(01:01:06):
was out of it. She was also manipulated by Keith Rnier.
He recognized that she's also although she was a perpetrator,
she's also a victim, which I think you can be both.

Speaker 2 (01:01:15):
Of course, And I think that's why it's so important
that we're talking about this.

Speaker 4 (01:01:19):
And well, one thing that's super important I want to
get in really quickly. Some of her victims submitted letters
asking for leniency to the judge. So I think the
judge really took that into into play when he was
giving her.

Speaker 6 (01:01:32):
Even the victims, Ye that okay if they said that,
because I was about to say earlier, Well, she is
an actress, so she can probably you know, that's true.

Speaker 2 (01:01:39):
She can probably cry and command, right.

Speaker 6 (01:01:41):
Right, So, but you know, not to delittle her.

Speaker 2 (01:01:45):
Yeah, no, no, it's so it's so it's so nuanced.
And again, unless you've been in that situation, how are
you to say? So it is important that she's talking
about it. Can we finish this a little bit when
we come back? Yeah, before going into another do it? Sure?
Much good stuff?

Speaker 5 (01:02:00):
Yeah, keep it here. We are going to continue this
true crime tonight.

Speaker 2 (01:02:14):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with
Courtney armstrong body movement and if ever there was a
night for our weighted vests, let's pop it on. Courtney's
popping hers on, I'm popping mine on.

Speaker 5 (01:02:28):
I can't is mine my chest books, I'm standing on
my shoulders desk.

Speaker 2 (01:02:35):
Yeah, I'm all about the pop. She's taken names, she's
taken names. She looks like she's about to, frankly, go
to war. You are it's on you? Have you been drafted?
Honestly one of those Viking shield means yes.

Speaker 5 (01:02:52):
King so inspired by Haley Robson earlier, I just want to.

Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
Just give me the power. I'm still fired up from her.

Speaker 4 (01:03:04):
So he's still fired up, Like, I don't know, she's
very inspiring and I don't. I don't you know, I'm
not one of those people.

Speaker 2 (01:03:10):
I don't know. She just really inspired me. I am a
little bit. Yeah, I love it. I love it. I
love it. I love it too. Yeah, listen, I guess
it just speaks to the fact that there is a community, right,
There's there are voices, and there are people that touch
our hearts that we just aren't necessarily expecting. And again,
if you haven't joined the convo, please do eight eight
eight three one crime. Uh you know Sam and Adam

(01:03:34):
are waiting by the phone literally, or you could always
leave us a talk bag, please do so Yeah, back
to this nexium. Okay, So did I say it wrong?
I'm like the shampoo. It's like n x v I
M is something they use like weird. They use like weird,
like yeah, Roman numbers or something like it. Right, it's

(01:03:55):
all very well, that's how Yeah, it's n x v
I M. I think is it is? It's just very weird. Well,
I think cults and abuse in general have similar it's
a similar blueprint, and I think, honestly, Haley said it
so well, it's really not until you step away from
it entirely. Well, and you've had some distance from it,

(01:04:17):
can you actually see what right just happened?

Speaker 3 (01:04:20):
Right?

Speaker 7 (01:04:21):
You know? I don't.

Speaker 4 (01:04:21):
I don't think you realize until you're out of it,
Like Haley said, like you you know, the course of control,
Like I'm gonna call your parents and tell them you're
doing this. Well, Nixion was doing the same thing with
this collateral. Yes, like I'm gonna you're gonna you're gonna
make this video or write a letter saying all these
terrible things about like your mother, let's say, right, like
God forbid, and if you talk, you know, if you

(01:04:44):
talk crap or you want to leave, I'm going to
send this to her. Your mother is going to know
everything that happened, that you've done, and that you're doing
these terrible things.

Speaker 2 (01:04:54):
And by the way, that happened, I think that happened
to Cat, I said Catherine Oxenberg. Yeah, she was a
dynasty she was one of the Dynasty stars and her
daughter in this cult. Yeah. Part of like the interesting
part of her story was that, you know, this was
a mother who was trying to get her daughter out
of the cult.

Speaker 3 (01:05:13):
She had.

Speaker 2 (01:05:13):
You know, she had a big career, she had a big,
you know, affluent life, and yet her daughter has somehow
found herself in this dumb cult with you know, this
clown who's claiming to be this you know, super god
and having sex with all of these young women and
branding his initials on their thighs. And now Alison Mack,
who had a very big career as an actress, who

(01:05:36):
has now served her time. And it's funny, it's like,
you know, we that is the thing about grooming that
I think is cyclical, right, but I think I think
this is the conversation, right, So it is, and we
hear this even with Haley. Suddenly you're in the beehive.
It's terrible. You acclimate, you get used to it, and
now you're sort of hanging on your abusers every word.

(01:05:58):
And then he says, hey, bring us a few more,
bring us a little bit more, and then that makes sense,
and then you bring a little more, and little do
you know, suddenly you're the groomer. Unintentionally you're also the victim.
So it's like because you're totally proplicated of course, right. So,
Katherine Oxenberg, you mentioned that, I'm so glad you Dix.
I had forgotten about that her She and her daughter

(01:06:19):
went to one of these self help seminars. Oh, and
they were both kind of into it for a hot minute.
But Catherine was like, eh, not for me. But India,
her daughter was like, I kind of like this. So
what happened was because Catherine was like, it's not for
me and never really kind of signed up for like
the whole thing. India, her daughter, lovely by the way,

(01:06:40):
has to cut her mom off and like stops talking
to her, and there's a documentary. It's called Seduced Inside
the Nixium Cult, and it came out like right during
it came out during COVID.

Speaker 4 (01:06:52):
I think it's very good. I feel like it's very good.
And that's her story. That's Catherine's story trying to get
her daughter. And the filmmaker who made the vow, who
was also in the cult, like we were talking about earlier. Yes,
he is in Seduced because he's you know, they're working
together to get everybody out, the victims out of the cult.

Speaker 2 (01:07:13):
It's very good. So even though I've seen all of
these somehow somewhere forgetting a part, this is the part
that I didn't totally get. So the filmmaker who's a male, Yes,
what was his involvement? He didn't know his wife was
in the cult? No, well he thought she was not
in the cult. No, well no, they're all in the cult.
But the women that we're talking about are in doss

(01:07:37):
the cult, within the cult, oh, the subcult. That's it's
a secret. It's a secret.

Speaker 4 (01:07:42):
Oh I didn't realize that, right, right, But he gets
like wind of it, he gets like wind of it.
He's like, uh, he like tries he leaves, but he
wants his wife to come with him, and she's like,
you're being crazy, You're not you know, she's like still brainwashed.
But he leaves. He's like, I got to get out
of here. I can't do this, you know, And she
eventually follows it, like very shortly after, very shortly after,

(01:08:03):
didn't didn't stay in Wow. So they they made the
vow and he filmed all this while while it was happening,
like while it was happening. And then they go to
Catherine Oxenberg's house because you know, she's powerful and whatnot,
and she's.

Speaker 2 (01:08:17):
Like living in Malibu if I remember correctly, right, And
then they try to get India out in India's like no,
I'm happy, No, I can't talk to real and cuts
off communication with her mother. But anyway, I don't want
to give too much way.

Speaker 4 (01:08:32):
You watch it.

Speaker 2 (01:08:33):
You have to go watch it. It's also reminding me
of that other dock with the TikTok star who's in
like the dance house. I have seen this one. I
haven't seen that. Like it's apparently like you know, you
see the dancers on TikTok or on Instagram that are
doing all the choreographed cool dancing, and little do you know,
they're all in a house living together. That in the
house has like a million different looks, so it looks

(01:08:53):
like they're in a million different places, but they're actually
in the same mansion, and that mansion is owned and
run someone who's in a cult, who's taking all their money,
and the families are like, my daughter is like a
ballerina and an incredible hip hop dancer, and she's somehow
trapped in this weird dance house. We are out and

(01:09:15):
she's coming out.

Speaker 5 (01:09:16):
Is it Dancing for the Devil the seven million Dolt?

Speaker 2 (01:09:20):
Yeah, Yeah, that's actually an interesting watch. I don't think
that they've gotten out. I think that one daughter is
still dancing for the Devil a legendly.

Speaker 4 (01:09:28):
Allegendly well, one thing that's really common you know, through
our whole themes tonight actually, but with the Vow and Seduced,
the Katherine Oxenberg documentary one, it really highlights and provides
like a really unique and personal perspective on the grooming
and control mechanisms that are being used on these young people.

Speaker 2 (01:09:48):
And I think it's.

Speaker 4 (01:09:49):
Important to watch all, especially when we're talking about these themes, right, Yes,
And it's so it's so so good, so good, So
please go watch it and then and then.

Speaker 2 (01:09:57):
We can talk me doctor Jess can come on and
talk to us a little bit about this too, because
it's so complicated. But I think it's really easy to
be victim too. Oh I do too.

Speaker 4 (01:10:08):
I absolutely agree. And like you said, I mean any
one of us could happen to any one of us,
and the isolation and also just the family. Remember if
you're feeling a little like lost in the sauce in
your soul and you're not feeling whole, by the way,
raise your hand, how many times has anybody been there?

Speaker 2 (01:10:24):
How many times? If you're in that space and somebody
rolls in really gently and they see you and they
think you're amazing and they totally get you and see
your potential and recognize your highest and best self, that
is a great feeling. And then that suddenly you realize

(01:10:45):
is a form of entrapment as opposed to real sight,
and that can be tier one. So I think that
tier one version for everybody to hear is, you know,
care for ourselves, right, everybody needs self care, pride in oneself,
take care of yourself, feel good to yourself, be kind
to yourself, because man, it's tough out there. It really is.

(01:11:05):
It truly is. And not that a face mask is
going to cure any of this, but you know, just
like being nice to yourself when you're feeling down on
yourself and beating yourself up, it's almost like that's the
perfect time for someone to swoop in and say, no, no, no,
don't be down on yourself. You're amazing. And then that's
some weirdo named Keith who's like, and come join my

(01:11:27):
weird sex colt and I'm going to put your my
initials in your thigh.

Speaker 4 (01:11:31):
Yeah, And it was like a ceremony. They'd have to
strip naked in front of all the other women and
literally get branded. And one of the women was describing
like she could smell it. She could smell it, and
it looked like a little it was like a circle,
and it looked like a mountain with like a sun.

Speaker 2 (01:11:47):
But it was really k R. Oh my god.

Speaker 4 (01:11:49):
But it was like sideways. You have to look at
it sideways, And so it literally says KR for Keith Vernier.
He was branding these women, branding them.

Speaker 2 (01:11:57):
Yeah, he just like tilted his initials and it was
always like right above like your pubic bone. Yeah, and
now they can't get rid of it. And now they
can't get rid of it, which is really also an
added tear right, terrible, terrible, terrible quinny. You're just giving
a very strange look right now. What's the look now?

Speaker 5 (01:12:15):
Just thinking about grooming and really and being branded and
all of the above.

Speaker 2 (01:12:22):
It does it like suddenly you look like either you
were super mad or about to ask a question, but
you were feeling mad as hell.

Speaker 5 (01:12:29):
Absolutely, And if you are feeling mad as hell, we're
at eight to eight three one crime.

Speaker 2 (01:12:33):
Give us a call.

Speaker 5 (01:12:34):
We have been talking about the Nexium cult and Jeffrey
Ebstein and we'd love to hear your thoughts on any
of it. And now we'd let's turn our attention to
Delphi bo.

Speaker 2 (01:12:44):
Yeah, another one of my things. Night is very heavy.
There's a lot to talk about it, yes, but this one.
As soon as we were all talking about it, I
was like, oh, well, the good news is we have
body to discuss this with. Because you're such on the
frontline of this case, it's so close to your heart,
it's rough.

Speaker 4 (01:13:02):
So Richard Allen's appellate team has filed Richard Allen of
is the convicted man responsible for killing Abby and Libby
in Delphi, Indiana in twenty seventeen, and his appellate team
have filed twelve hunderd pages of previously unseen evidence in
an effort to challenge his conviction.

Speaker 2 (01:13:23):
In the twenty seventeen.

Speaker 4 (01:13:24):
Delphi murders, Abby Williams and Liberty German were murdered near
a hiking trail in Delphi, Indiana, and the killer remained
unidentified until Allen's twenty twenty two arrest, and he was.

Speaker 2 (01:13:37):
Convicted a year ago this week.

Speaker 4 (01:13:41):
Actually, Allen's defense had planned to argue that practitioners of
odinism were responsible, but the judge barred evidence pointing to
any third party suspects during the trial because there was
a lack of nexus. They didn't meet the bar of
evidence that's required to propose was this third party culpability. Well,

(01:14:05):
now they're appealing it based on that. They're they're appealing
it based on that because the FBI and a couple
of members of the Indiana State Police basically thought that
initially when this crime was committed, they they said that
it looked like the bodies were moved and staged and
were part of this odonist.

Speaker 2 (01:14:25):
Ritual.

Speaker 4 (01:14:26):
Okay, it just so happens that Abby, one of the
victims in this case, beautiful twelve year old girl, was
friends with this guy's son. His name is Brad Holder,
while brad Holder is a self proclaimed odinist.

Speaker 2 (01:14:45):
Okay, so you got to.

Speaker 4 (01:14:47):
Follow the train here, ye, all right, it looks like
the bodies are staged, and the FBI and the Indiana
States some people of the Indiana State Police are like,
this looks like a ritual. And then Abby's friends and
kind of semi dating Bradholder's son, and Bradholder as a
self proclaimed odonist. And by the way, he had a
really weird photo that he posted to his Facebook of

(01:15:09):
a drawing that looks exactly like the crime scene and
how the girls were posed. Who so uh yeah, And
this was all in the Frank's Memorandum that came out
in like the summer of twenty twenty three, and they
had a hearing. And if you guys know what a
Frank's hearing is, it's when the defense is accusing the

(01:15:30):
sheriff's department or authorities of lying in order to procure
a search warrant. So then anything procured from the search
warrant is like the fruit of the poisonous tree. Right,
So they're basically saying the sheriff lied, and I agree
the sheriff did lie to get the search warrant because
they altered some of the witness statements.

Speaker 2 (01:15:50):
Wow, it's very complicated. This is a very that's major show.
It is major.

Speaker 4 (01:15:54):
So now it a loophole or is that it's not
a lejor it's a major thing.

Speaker 2 (01:15:59):
Well, they had they had the Frank's hearing. It was
a three day hearing in September.

Speaker 4 (01:16:02):
I think it was twenty twenty three, and the judge said, no,
you can't present this because you haven't met the threshold
that I require this nexus to present third party culpability.
While they're basing their appeal on that denial, the defense
and the appellate team is saying, this should have been
granted and we should have been able to present this
alternative suspect theory, but it was denied wrongly.

Speaker 2 (01:16:26):
Basically got it. Yeah, And by the way, just like
hearing it again, this is not the case that I
know nearly as well as you do and as many well, honestly,
because the girls are so perfect and beautiful, it's actually
hard for me. I think about for Libyan Abbey and
their family's hearts go out. It's one of those cases
that I actually am like slightly allergic to because it's

(01:16:46):
just I don't know where the line my head is,
but it's actually too devastating.

Speaker 3 (01:16:51):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:16:52):
But what I have seen, and I have the benefit of,
you know, working with you every day and being my friend,
it does see there's something there is there's something there.

Speaker 4 (01:17:02):
You know, there's the people on one side that think
he's totally guilty, one hundred percent, and then there's people
on the other that think he's totally innocent. I'm on
the innocent side, but not all the way right.

Speaker 2 (01:17:13):
It's so complicated. It's very complicated, and like, how do
you put somebody away for not all the way right?
Speaking of I mean, let's talk come from clemency and
the next break because can we finish on this though,
because I think we have a few more questions to
get to and then obviously this very unique case where
somebody dipped death. Today, welcome back to True Crime tonight

(01:17:46):
on iHeartRadio. We're talking true crime all the time. I'm
Stephanie Leidecker here with Courtney Armstrong. Body move in and
we have a caller on the phone. Hi, Melanie. We're
so happy that you've called and yeah, welcome to the show.

Speaker 3 (01:18:03):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:18:04):
Tell us everything. How are you? Yeah, what's your question
or do you have a share?

Speaker 7 (01:18:10):
Well, my name's Melanie. I'm a survivor at molestation and
this still with Epstein files and stuff. I don't feel
like it's right for the survivors to have to keep
telling their story over and over because each time that

(01:18:30):
it's time that we do, it just keeps getting harder
for us.

Speaker 2 (01:18:34):
And it's triggering, you know what too. It's funny. We
were talking during the break and we even asked her,
we're like, Haley, even seeing your you know, the person
who's done this to you his photo everywhere, that must
be so triggering, And of course the answer is yes.
But it's also pretty powerful because like the more you share,

(01:18:59):
the more the more you share, and we're so grateful
that you're sharing with us.

Speaker 7 (01:19:04):
Well, thank you. My heart goes up to the family
of the one that yeah, lot I think her life
due to what happened.

Speaker 2 (01:19:14):
Yeah, Virginia Gouffrey, who's you know. She committed suicide in
April and by the way. You know, people are like, well,
she took her life. I'm like, yeah, because of a
very long history of abuse and that's sort of the
tough result. And again because people aren't allowed to speak
of it because it's so hard. Even just you calling

(01:19:37):
right now takes a lot of courage and we're so
grateful for it. Thank you, Melanie. We love you Melanie too.

Speaker 7 (01:19:46):
Thank you my napping back when before they even registered
sex offenders.

Speaker 2 (01:19:58):
With us for a long time. Yeah, yeah, like you've
been living with that for so long.

Speaker 7 (01:20:03):
Yeah, never get over it.

Speaker 2 (01:20:06):
You never get over it. Is there anything you can share,
like just what we have you And if the answer
is no, that's totally fine too. But just like knowing
where you are now, is there something to share to
other young women who maybe are just a little stuck
in their heads about what to do if they've had
that level of experience? Is there any advice to share?

Speaker 7 (01:20:29):
Know that it wasn't just know that it wasn't their fault,
and to try to reach out to somebody and let
them know that what's going on and if it's happening
to them, you know, go to you know, tell a

(01:20:49):
place counselor or somebody.

Speaker 2 (01:20:54):
That's right. I think that's great.

Speaker 5 (01:20:56):
Great advice, Melanie is to tell someone in the secret
isn't yours?

Speaker 2 (01:21:01):
To keep? Yeah, like it exactly.

Speaker 5 (01:21:05):
Yeah, thank you very very much. Is great advice, and
we really appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (01:21:09):
And stay strong and stay brave.

Speaker 4 (01:21:11):
You're not alone, right, you're not alone, and you've been
living with us for a long time.

Speaker 2 (01:21:15):
So thank you for the call. We really really really
do appreciate it. And think about how special, even since
Melanie's experience, that there actually is something being done, that
there actually are predators being identified right, that there's a
you know, you don't want to do this, but there
is like a little map thing you can check for,
like you know, sexual predators that have been registered in

(01:21:37):
your area, depending upon where you live. You may be
surprised how many like notifications there are. Gosh, it is
not the fun, it's not a fun look, but it's
important because again, like at least there's some conversations about it,
there's something actionable. Imagine sweet Melody Melanie when she was

(01:21:57):
coming up, like there was nowhere there, there was no
list of offenders, there was no recourse. So I do
think we're I think we're all scratching at it. I
feel very hopeful and I want to be really clear
about this, and I know I live in a little
bit of a bubble happiness wise, but it's not true.
It's a choice. I choose to try to really like

(01:22:19):
see the happy in it all things. I believe in
my heart of hearts that there is a most hopeful
day is upon us where people are going to be
more together than ever before, and transparency will be the
name of the game. Period. I think we're like here now.

(01:22:39):
It's not like in a million years. It's not two
years from now, not y two k like tomorrow is
the possibility for that. It's very hopeful. I hope, So
I hope. So, Okay, should we sing.

Speaker 5 (01:22:56):
No, No, nobody needs that, but what we should acknowledge? Yeah,
I'll speak for myself. Nobody needs to hear me. Nobody
think that's a crime in and of itself. But today
is actually a special day on a lot of different levels.

Speaker 2 (01:23:14):
So it has been. It has been three years today.

Speaker 5 (01:23:21):
Since the tragedy in Idaho happened, and Kayla Gonsolvas and
Madison Mogan, Ethan Shapen and Xana kernodle Right three years wow,
And I know you both have thoughts about that. But

(01:23:41):
the other uh side of that heavy coin is it
also is National Kindness Day, Oh yeah, which actually ties
in somewhat to Maddie may Day, which I think body
you wanted to yeah, and.

Speaker 4 (01:23:59):
You know, we had a call earlier and about what
we're going to talk about tonight, and you had mentioned
that it's National Kindness Day, and I was like, oh
my gosh, well that's really interesting because you know, each
of the victims kind of has their own special day,
and so instead of you know, talking about.

Speaker 2 (01:24:16):
You know, the murder in this on this day.

Speaker 4 (01:24:19):
We thought it would be a good idea to talk
about them and their special day since it is National
Kindness Day.

Speaker 2 (01:24:25):
So it has been three years since.

Speaker 4 (01:24:27):
Idaho and on every May twenty fifth it's Mattie may Day.
And what Maddie may Day is is random acts of kindness.
And what I have done on Mattie may Day is
I'll pay for the coffee of somebody behind me in
the morning on my work.

Speaker 2 (01:24:47):
So that's what I do, and it always works. That's
such a suggestion.

Speaker 4 (01:24:52):
It's an easy thing to do, you know, and it
just pays respect because Maddie was just such a kind soul.

Speaker 2 (01:24:59):
But everyone that knew her so that she was just
such a kind soul. That is so.

Speaker 4 (01:25:02):
That is May twenty fifth. Okay, June eighth is Kayleie
Jade Day. And what the Gonsalva's family is asking is
that you do more of what you love, whether it's
eating spaghetti.

Speaker 2 (01:25:17):
Or now having all the pot scream yeah, ice scream.
If you like to play soccer, go play soccer, Go
do things, go watch the sunrise right, yeah, things that
you love, do them more.

Speaker 4 (01:25:30):
And Xana Carenodle Day, it's also known by this is
like one of my favorite things. Xana Cernodle Day is
also known as Xanna Palooza. I love that Xanna Palooza.
That is July fifth, and her family encourages people to
celebrate by being silly and goofy and getting out of
your comfort zone, push your boundaries, and making more memories.

Speaker 2 (01:25:53):
Just as Xanna did. I every time I see a
video of Xanna, she's just.

Speaker 4 (01:25:57):
Being silly and goofy and just having fun and and
and that's how her family wants you to remember her.
So when you celebrate Xana's Day, Xanna Palooza on July fifth,
make a silly video, send it to your family, post
it to TikTok, just you know, make a fool of yourself,
but have fun.

Speaker 2 (01:26:13):
We'll celebrate these days too. Specific I think we should.
We should add them to our personal calendars, but also
to this calendar is yeah, let's do that. Let's do that.

Speaker 4 (01:26:23):
And then Ethan Chaffin, he doesn't have like a day
specifically that I know of.

Speaker 2 (01:26:28):
He is a triplet.

Speaker 4 (01:26:30):
And so what their family has done, the Chapin family
is they've created this amazing foundation. It's called Ethan Smile,
and they they raise money and send kids to school.
They've already spent They've already sent a bunch of kids
to college amazing through scholarships and whatnot. So you can

(01:26:53):
look that up. It's the Ethan Ethan Smile. And they
also sell tulips and candles and all I had literally.

Speaker 2 (01:27:01):
My girlfriend came to visit with some friends this weekend
and they gifted me this candle, which was from Ethan
Chapin's foundation. It's this beautiful, beautiful candle. By the way,
I don't know if there's only this color, but they
chose this color because it has the colors of sprite.
It's like this beautiful green in it, and like I

(01:27:24):
have a little beautiful white votive candle in it and
I'm going to light it every night with the show.
And you know, we're always thinking of them and their
memories are not lost and in such a big way,
like globally, these are angels that are looking upon all
of us.

Speaker 5 (01:27:44):
And yeah, and that actually you asked if that was
the only color I'm looking because it's so exquisite. I
wanted to and I love the Yeah, exactly. So that
candle is called hunder Bear and it completes the triplet sets,
so they're indeed are three options. There is a pink
one called Maisie's Pugga, and the gift for the holidays

(01:28:07):
is a blue one called Ethan's Smile.

Speaker 2 (01:28:11):
By the way, that's a boy beautiful. I'm going to
tell you, I'm literally have it in my hand. You
guys are looking at it. It's so beautiful, it's like
a it's this was a tremendous, beautiful gift. What a
great gift to give somebody for the holidays. That and
again we're not promoting anything, but yeah, I mean all
of help send kids to school and it helps send

(01:28:33):
you can't go wrong, and it's a really substantial, gorgeous
candle and ah that like rips my heart open. And
by the way, just the fact that Ethan as a triplet.
Triplets are so unusually interesting to all of us, right,
like who doesn't want to be a twin two boys
and a girl, Like it sounds perfect until your heart

(01:28:55):
is ripped in pieces because one of the three of
you is missing. So again, to the siblings, it's just
a very unique piece of Ethan's story and for his
sister and brother to continue on continue his legacy is major.
And of course for the Gonzalvez family and their Carenodle
family and Madison Mogan's family, we love you and we

(01:29:19):
are not alone in that. We all aere crazy in
love with you and send you so much love. Yeah.
I thought about them all day.

Speaker 4 (01:29:28):
Yeah, my social media has been bombarded with videos of
there's so many people making like memory videos of the
four of them, and in every single one they're all
dancing and smiling and you know.

Speaker 2 (01:29:43):
Just being it's their life worth living. It's funny, as
you say, social media, and I guess the one takeaway
from that case and having just obviously the podcast is
now final episode out now please check it out, and
some silver line in a very you know, dark, difficult tail.

(01:30:03):
And then we made a documentary on Peacock. I really
have suffered from being on social media that their case
has pretty much made me absent on social media. Wow,
I guess, I guess being in the trenches in it.
My fear was that because they were so alive and

(01:30:27):
happy and living their lives so fully and fun, and
you would see the interior of their houses and it
almost allowed a level of access to you know, you
think just your buds, but it allowed a level of
access that maybe was dangerous that somebody who wanted to
do harm, or had envy or wanted something different for

(01:30:50):
their ending of their lives had more access to them.
I thought they knew them, maybe a little bit better
than they actually did. That's a really good point. And
it became again, this is not anything that they did
wrong in any way or form, God knows, but I
think I also probably did that. Who doesn't like we
were like, oh this is a happy moment or a
goofy moment or a silly moment. I don't think social

(01:31:12):
media needs to be curated. I think it just needs
to be honest in the moment. So sometimes it's like
a weird day. But you're like taking a photo in
your in your house and like there's no entrance in.
There is the exit, and that's the window. There's stare there,
don't yeah, step up and just working on the documentary especially,
it's sort of it kind of got me scared. Yeah,

(01:31:34):
And I was like, I love social media, by the way.
I get a kick out of seeing everybody's photos and
their babies and their weddings and their engagements and their graduations.
Like I get a I get a high five out
of it big time. But it did sort of take
the fun out of it for me, Like now I'm
sort of like, not that anyone's looking at my windows
and doors. I'm not suggesting that, nor am I particularly

(01:31:55):
that interesting in any way. Yes you are, but it
just put me like a It just made me stop.
It just made me like, I'm like, I never post
anything anymore? Wow, how nyvy I should Maybe I should
start doing it? No, no, or I should lighten up.
I don't know one of the two. Maybe what should
meet in the middle. How donut we only post with

(01:32:15):
outdoors and windows. I'm constantly oversharing. But like license plates,
I don't know. I just don't even know. I just
started seeing the world differently, differently, yeah, and which is
a bad thing. It's not the way you should live.

Speaker 5 (01:32:28):
Well.

Speaker 2 (01:32:28):
But there's a lot of bad people, but there's more good.
There's way more good. I think the bad or isolated.
And again, in the spirit of hopefulness, I think there
is so much more good than these clowns that are
bad and I don't know. Post your little hearts out.
Go ahead, share those smiling faces. Let this Thursday night

(01:32:50):
rip with happiness, and if you're having a great one,
to share it with all of us. Please do. By
the way, we're not here tomorrow, but we are back
on Sunday. Joseph scot More game here for a crime lab.
Courtney Armstrong, body moving. I love you to pieces and everybody,
stay safe, have a great night.