The Epstein Files Fight, a Military Predator Exposed, and a Murder Case Unraveling

A major shift in the Epstein saga: Trump now wants the Epstein files released, survivors are preparing another Capitol Hill push, and pressure is mounting on investigators. Then, Chelsea Tersavich joins us to discuss the Army Major Jonathan Batt case and the network of women who helped expose his abuse. Tune in for all the details.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
its affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
crime all the time. It's Monday, November seventeenth, and we
have a mega stack knight of headlines. Will the Epstein
files finally be released? Tomorrow? Allegedly is the day. Congress
votes tomorrow, as dozens of Epstein survivors gather on Capitol Hill,

(00:42):
and in a major reversal, President Trump says Republicans should
vote for the release of all documents and that he
will in fact sign off on any legislation compelling the
Department of Justice to do so, which is major. So
tomorrow is the day, so buckle up, everybody. And also

(01:03):
later in the show, we have a very special guest
with us Chelsea Terseovich. She's actually a listener of the show,
and she reached out and shared her personal story of
abuse and really encouraged us to look into a case
that ends up being one of the most significant military
cases and frankly cover ups in recent years. And she

(01:25):
lives to tell the tale and is joining us tonight
to do so. And listen. This is one of those
nights that the questions should keep on coming. So jump
in join the conversation eight eight eight three one Crime
again eight eight eight three one Crime, or you can
always leave us a talk back on the iHeartRadio app.

Speaker 3 (01:45):
Listen.

Speaker 2 (01:45):
We are on the brink. It is the eve of
potentially one of the most significant times for victims in
modern history.

Speaker 3 (01:56):
I'll go that far as to say it's so.

Speaker 2 (01:58):
This is a criminal investigation that just needs to be
seen through. So here's to transparency. I feel confident and
hopeful that it's coming.

Speaker 3 (02:09):
I do, I do.

Speaker 2 (02:10):
I'm gonna air on the side of pure hope, and
as I do that, just as a heads up, I'm
Stephanie Leidecker here, of course with my favorite too True crime. Ladies,
Courtney Armstrong and Body move in and as always we
have Taha, Sam and Adam in the control room keeping
us all in check and they are waiting to hear
from you.

Speaker 3 (02:31):
Hi, ladies, how do you think?

Speaker 2 (02:32):
What do you think?

Speaker 3 (02:33):
Girl?

Speaker 4 (02:34):
I love your optimism, I mean I love your optimism,
but you know me, you know negative Nancy.

Speaker 3 (02:42):
Bad mood.

Speaker 5 (02:43):
Body.

Speaker 6 (02:44):
You know.

Speaker 3 (02:46):
You are not in a bad mood. You're just the realist.

Speaker 4 (02:48):
I just, I just I just know that you know
the Trump is saying, go ahead, and you know, vote yes, right,
And I do predict that the Republicans will vote yes
tomorrow along with the Democrats.

Speaker 3 (02:59):
But then it'll be like, oh, wait a minute.

Speaker 4 (03:01):
Can't do it because of this now, can't release them,
can't do it even though.

Speaker 3 (03:05):
We want to, even though if only I could.

Speaker 2 (03:08):
If I were right, That's what I That's what I
kind of think, in Courtney, what do you think, well,
pragmatic Patsy here and are both very.

Speaker 6 (03:19):
Unopeful and slightly unfair. I mean, I think I love
what you're saying. And if wishing made it true, then
I really I hope it is.

Speaker 3 (03:28):
It would be the right thing.

Speaker 6 (03:29):
I think that a hundred percent, this new investigation, which
we'll get into into Bill Clinton, will now be an
active investigation. Nothing will be released, and that will be it.
And this dog and pony show. Trump said, I'm telling
Republicans to vote now.

Speaker 3 (03:45):
Guess what.

Speaker 6 (03:46):
They all already went ahead and said they were going
to vote anyway. So it's a big dog and pony show.
In my estimation.

Speaker 2 (03:52):
So you think that was an optics play, meaning yes,
President Trump realized that maybe many of the Republics that
he felt would not vote for the release of those
files had indicated that they would, and therefore, to air
quotes save face, he is saying, oh, he go for it,
Go for it, go for it.

Speaker 3 (04:12):
I give you my permission. And then look, you know.

Speaker 2 (04:15):
Like there are others involved. And let's just remember I
think a really key thing here. This is a criminal investigation.
This is not a political one, right, So let's not
get confused by the noise of Republican democrat. Republican democrat
like down the middle is where reason begins, and we're
just looking for justice for something and also for it

(04:37):
to stop, because if what is being described as accurate,
it is likely still happening real time. This is a
world wide operation allegedly, allegedly, allegedly, the likes of which
we have not seen, and maybe justice will finally see
its day, and I predict that that might be tomorrow.

Speaker 3 (04:58):
I hope you're right. I would love to be wrong
about this.

Speaker 2 (05:01):
Okay, so let's do it. Like listen, by the way,
we have to talk about coming in right now. Let's
go to that.

Speaker 7 (05:06):
Hello, ladies, just getting caught up from being away for
a while, and I'm listening to the show, and I
just I don't understand why, you know, Trump is releasing records.
We've just had a big record.

Speaker 8 (05:18):
Dump, and nobody seems to be outraged by the Obama,
Bush and Clinton administrations when they could have released all
this information too, And I just don't understand the double standard.

Speaker 3 (05:30):
By the way, don't get it twisted.

Speaker 2 (05:32):
I'm outraged, am outraged for anyone in any party who
has participated.

Speaker 3 (05:38):
Or cocks on both their houses, cocks on both their houses.

Speaker 2 (05:41):
Yes, if anyone had knowledge or assisted in a cover
up or even worse participated, yes, of course, justice should
be done. And I think that's a big piece of it,
right we were just talking about it. Trump has now
suggested or ordered the DOJ to really look into Bill Clinton,

(06:01):
saying that there were some you know, real heavy dealings
between Epstein and Clinton, and then that should be the
focus of the investigation. By the way, high five, if
that's the case, and if Bill Clinton's in the thick
of it, he too should be brought to justice. This
is a nonpartisan clean wash of anybody who has been
a part of something so disgusting, who has bought thousands

(06:25):
of women so much heartache and would continue to do so.

Speaker 4 (06:29):
But we have to we have to be real too.
The House Committee released the files, not Trump. That's number one, fair, right,
number two? You know Trump campaigned on this. This was
like he riled everybody up. And you know, I had
forgotten about the Epstein files until Trump's are running, do
you know what I mean?

Speaker 5 (06:47):
Like it?

Speaker 4 (06:47):
It faded into obscurity and he brought He's the one
who brought it up.

Speaker 3 (06:51):
So let's go.

Speaker 6 (06:53):
And that's I mean, that's why, that's why. Yeah, And
you ask a fair point. But Obama actually wasn't president
once Jeffrey Ebstein was arrested on a federal level, So
the question can be asked about Biden. Is a fair
is one hundred percent fair? But anyway, you asked specifically
about all But I think that's the answer to He
was arrested when Obama was president, wasn't he? But the

(07:15):
I mean, it was an open investigation at that point.
You can't release stuff when it's an open investigation. Excuse me,
the excuse or restues tomorrow.

Speaker 4 (07:22):
Right.

Speaker 3 (07:22):
He was arrested in July of twenty nineteen. And yeah, so.

Speaker 4 (07:27):
Obama wouldn't have been able to release the files even
if he wanted to because it was an open investigation
at that time. And then tomorrow after they vote yes,
which I predict they will to you know, release these files.
We're going to hear. Oh, sorry, you know, we're looking
into Bill Clinton's activities with the you know, Epstein.

Speaker 3 (07:42):
We can't release files. So let's discuss that.

Speaker 2 (07:44):
Can we pause on that point for one quick second
because I think it's such a good one. Two things
that I think we're not talking enough about. Number One,
you go back in time, yes, Obama, great question. Right,
So chargers were in fact being filed even back when
Bush was present, and the state charges against Jeffrey Epstein happened.
And yeah, exactly in two thousand and seven, two thousand

(08:06):
and eight.

Speaker 3 (08:07):
That's up for debate. He got a sweetheart deal. Why.

Speaker 2 (08:10):
I think the fact is we're saying that because of
the Glaine Maxwell investigation, that case was open, and oftentimes
in open investigations we get told this A lot files
are therefore not released because there it's an open investigation.
This happens in a lot of our current cases that
we're working on. So cut to this past Saturday, when

(08:33):
Trump orders the Department of Justice to look at Bill Clinton.
Does that mean he has now opened an investigation and
therefore it is ongoing and therefore files cannot be released because.

Speaker 3 (08:48):
It's an open investigation.

Speaker 2 (08:50):
Do you follow?

Speaker 3 (08:51):
Is that like a loophole in the making.

Speaker 6 (08:53):
Yeah, so the US attorney, so our girl, Pam Bondi,
she was ordered to launch an federal investigation. So it
is an investigation into Epstein's associates and specifically Clinton. A
lot of critics what they're saying is that the potential
implications are under US law, ongoing federal investigations can provide

(09:15):
legal grounds for the DOJ Department of Justice to withhold
certain documents from public disclosure.

Speaker 2 (09:21):
So on the one hand, Scots say, yes, release it,
I'll sign anything, and on the other you'll say, oh,
and at the same time, in a parallel universe, I've
also ordered an investigation that would make it an open investigation,
and therefore those files would have to be blocked even
if I'm giving the order to release them. So welcome

(09:42):
to the loop. Right, and by the way, let's take
a pause on Bill Clinton. A little walk down Memory Lane.
So it has been always talked about that. In Jeffrey
Epstein's one of his many lavish homes, there was a
painting kind of like a as you would imagine in
like a palace, like an oil painting of someone, and
that painting was of Bill Clinton wearing a blue dress

(10:06):
and heels in that blue dress being kind of a nod,
a disgusting nod to Monica Lewinsky in the incident with
her giving him oral sex in the Oval office. So
that was something that was always kind of known. And
now there's also been some emails that seem to imply

(10:26):
about a person named Bubba and the conspiracy chatter. Maybe
it's not even conspiracy. The chatter online on all sides is, oh,
that's President Clinton or former President Clinton. We don't know.
Epstein's brother came out and said, no, no, Bubba's a horse. Okay,
But the email basically says that doesn't make it any better.

(10:46):
With the email, the direct quote, Courtney, I know you
have this probably more in front of you than I do.

Speaker 3 (10:51):
Oh the direct yea quote.

Speaker 6 (10:52):
The email was from Mark to Jeffrey, so brother to
Jeffrey Epstein saying, ask him if putin has the photos
of Trump blowing bubba, so that is what the words were.

Speaker 3 (11:05):
Could it be hubba bubba, bubble gum?

Speaker 5 (11:07):
I don't know, Oh, like the gum is listen.

Speaker 4 (11:10):
Both options seem absurd, Yeah, absolutely absurd to me. That
you know it could be Clinton or horse like that
is ridiculous to me.

Speaker 2 (11:20):
But it doesn't disprove the fact that Clinton may have
been involved, right, we don't know. That's why we need
to release these files again. Let it rip whoever has
been either participating and I guess that's a bigger question,
whether you participated versus covered it up, versus had knowledge
of it and chose to look the other way?

Speaker 3 (11:41):
Is that a crime?

Speaker 2 (11:43):
Okay, I guess the overarching question.

Speaker 4 (11:46):
I do think that knowledge of the crime necessarily isn't
a crime, but covering it up, actively covering it up
is a crime.

Speaker 3 (11:55):
Like if you.

Speaker 4 (11:56):
Have not right, if you know something and just you
just be quiet about it. I don't know if that's
a crime, but if you're actively covering something up, then yeah,
that would be like obstruction of justice.

Speaker 2 (12:05):
And if you know about something that's happening that is
affecting thousands of young women and it's with somebody who
you have some association with, whether it's an ex best
friend or a current friend, or a loose person that
you do business with. And you also know that there
may be upward of a billion dollars in transactions being

(12:28):
flagged by various banks that may in fact involve this
person that you know about. You're not participating in it,
but you know about it. And that also involves potentially
world leaders, and that potentially involves policy that affects the
United States.

Speaker 3 (12:49):
What that he I don't know. I don't know if
that's crime. I mean, would I don't know. Is it
a morality? Is I don't know, Yeah, I'd be kidous.

Speaker 6 (12:56):
Honestly, we should put this on the list for Jared
Faar And because I don't know if government officials are
mandated reporters in a capacity. So in general, if I
knew of but did not, I was not covering up
a crime, but I was aware of a crime.

Speaker 3 (13:13):
Even the one you mentioned.

Speaker 6 (13:15):
I don't believe that I did anything that's not easy.

Speaker 3 (13:19):
Unless I'm questioned and lie about it right right, then
it's flying. Then it's a obstruction of justice? Or is it?

Speaker 2 (13:25):
If you're calling it straight up a hoax or if
you're accepting money or financial gain or any influence politically speaking,
in the world, whether that's from who now, whoever, And
again we're not world leaders and we're not politicians, so
I don't know. But what's the end game. I have
to assume knowing all the players, whether it's Clinton, whether

(13:48):
it's you know, I don't even want to say it,
but whether you know it's President Trump had knowledge, whether
whoever the people are that whoever knew about it, and
that therefore affects policy that we're living real time.

Speaker 3 (14:02):
I think that's really major.

Speaker 2 (14:04):
And if we also know that that is happening on
a world scale with young women real time, that is
something that is also a crime of we have to
stop it from happening. In continuing. This isn't just ending.
You know, we've heard Gailey Maxwell just got to transfer
into a cushy situation and into the dark of night.

(14:25):
Why if there is nothing there, why is she getting
preferential treatment? Why has there been so much hush money
given up by everyone and everyone, including JP Morgan, including
a Bank of America, Deutsche Bank, you name it, the list,
it's twenty banks. How is that not a smoking gun
to something. I don't think there's like a fancy list

(14:46):
of pedophiles, let's be clear. But if there is knowledge
of a larger ring and people that are currently in
office are a part of that or previously were, that's
a problem.

Speaker 9 (14:58):
It is.

Speaker 4 (14:58):
Well, we're going to continue this conversation about it obscene,
because we're not done. And what host Meghan Kelly recently
said about Jeffrey Epstein and later a military officer accused
of terrorizing.

Speaker 10 (15:08):
Women for years, one of the victims is here with us.
Keep it right here, True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (15:24):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with
Courtney Armstrong and body move in on the eve of
what could be one of the most significant watershed moments
for victims everywhere, and I remain really hopeful that that's
the case. We definitely want to hear from you if

(15:44):
you want to jump in and leave us at talkback
or hit us up on our socials at True Crime
Tonight's show on Instagram and TikTok, or at True Crime
Tonight on Facebook. We have another talkback right now.

Speaker 11 (15:56):
Hi, this is Brenda from Alabama. I am really enjoying
the show, but I'm just really confused the victims from
the stupid, horrible epsteine. Why can they not just start
viewing the names of the violators. I don't know, maybe
there's some weird legal things, but anyway, that's it. Thanks all.

Speaker 3 (16:15):
Great question, A really good question. We all think.

Speaker 2 (16:18):
We all asked the exact same question multiple times. I
think I can jump in, Yeah, the number one, please
go please, it's deadly. I think it is really really dangerous.
Number one First and foremost. I think in this particular case,
given the high profile names in world, leaders and influencers
that have maybe the deepest pockets in all the land,

(16:41):
there could be a hit on your back first and foremost,
so danger being the first one. And then body, I
know you had a few more.

Speaker 3 (16:49):
Yeah, you know, I think also too.

Speaker 4 (16:51):
Yeah, they can go ahead and name names of people
they know, right, but it goes so much deeper, right,
and they might not know the financier of this person,
and who provide this yacht, and who you know scratched
this guy's back to get the plane ride, and you know,
things like that that just go a lot deeper and
number three, they might get sued too, right, like information,
and it needs to come from an official source, like

(17:14):
an unimpeachable source. And that currently right now is the
Department of Justice and all the court records and the FBI.
Right those are the houses the house, yep, right exactly.
So I think that's why the totality of everything, when
you add it all up, it is why they're not
releasing names. But I think they might threaten to. I

(17:37):
think they have threatened to talk, yeah, to talk about
the names they do know, yes, and those are the
people that they interacted with, and you know, things like that.
But we're not going to get, you know, the nitty
gritty details of the bigger picture unless this comes from
those agencies.

Speaker 2 (17:55):
And keep in mind, the amount of hush money that's
been pushed out usually is created for a non disclosure form,
So we say this all the time. It's called an NBA,
and those non disclosure forms basically say, hey, you sign
here in exchange for some cash and you hush. You
can never speak about this. It didn't happen, right. So

(18:16):
we've seen this play out many many times, specifically to Trump.
For example, Stormy Daniels back in the day. Remember there
was you know, Michael Cohen, his personal attorney. He ended
up going to jail because he paid hush money to
Stormy Daniels that allegedly Trump reimbursed him for.

Speaker 3 (18:34):
So that's a big piece of it.

Speaker 2 (18:35):
Having a non disclosure release and then you talk, you
could be legally, you know, liable for a lot of
money that many of these survivors frankly don't have.

Speaker 3 (18:47):
That's the first thing.

Speaker 2 (18:48):
Secondly, they've been saying it for decades and no one
believes them.

Speaker 3 (18:51):
That's the second piece of it.

Speaker 2 (18:52):
How about the fact that nobody ever listens anyways. So
why would you put your family and your friends, your children,
your significant other on the front line and name big names,
which the names even we're talking about tonight are pretty real,
that is midgor And why would you put a target
on your back if no one's going to believe you anyway.

(19:13):
So I think the hope is that some of these
names that are appearing, and it's not just like there's
not like a weird list. By the way, let's just
be clear, there's not like a grocery list with fancy
names on it. And that's going to be the end
of it. This is a dump of information that's bang transactions, emails,
flight logs, things that we're not even thinking about, just
drives testimony that's been given at.

Speaker 3 (19:35):
Various trials, and Perick's surveillance footage.

Speaker 2 (19:38):
Remember, Epstein was said to have had cameras on every
inch of that island and as a result, he was
taking you know, footage, video footage of any of the ongoings.
And we all saw it when that place was busted,
they were all members, all the FBI was walking out
with all.

Speaker 3 (19:56):
The paper crates.

Speaker 2 (19:58):
With like all this stuff in it. It's the stuff
that's in that We always were told that that was
was like surveillance footage, that he had had the whole
place rigged and therefore was using that rigged material as
like a spy, as blackmail against world leaders. You know,
Prince Andrew taking the most recent hit and being absolved

(20:19):
of any of his duties in the royal family. And
there's been a call for a conviction or at least
some criminal charges to be brought up against Prince Andrew
in the wake of this new information. He's one of many,
and I think we're all just saying enough is enough.
Whoever has been involved whoever knows about this, whoever's been
pushing it aside, whether it was this administration, the last administration,

(20:42):
the last five administrations, right, bring it.

Speaker 4 (20:46):
Like I've been saying, this is mutually a short destruction, right, correct? Well,
how is that term? A lot and a man? Like
you know, there's one thing about like Russia has nukes
and we have nukes? Right, why aren't we know during
the Cold War? Like why we just take each other out? Well,
because it's mutually short destruction, and it's the same concept
with this. I think I think that we're going to

(21:06):
find that, you know, Democrats over here and Republicans over
here and independent libertarians over here, you know, like I
don't think party lines matter, no.

Speaker 3 (21:14):
Because it's an exile. It's a crime, period.

Speaker 2 (21:17):
And I find it's so assuring and reassuring that regardless
of what side of the aisle you're on, even if
you know it seemed as though maybe some Republicans were
not going to vote in favor of the release of
the files, except for say Marjorie Taylor Green and you
know a handful of others. It does seem like there's
going to be a pretty strong showing tomorrow because this
is legacy stuff. You're not voting for politics. You're voting

(21:40):
for justice and inhumane treatment against young women. Anybody who
has a sister or daughter, or a mother, or any
woman who.

Speaker 6 (21:48):
Loves or a conscience, and anyone who wants to be
on the right side of history. Yeah right, I mean, well,
they're all going to be on the right side of history.

Speaker 4 (21:57):
They're all going to look great. They're all going to say, well,
we try, we tried, you know, we all voted yes.
So they're going to look like they were on the
right side of history.

Speaker 6 (22:04):
I think, I think, But that darn recently opened investigation
into former.

Speaker 3 (22:10):
President looking into Bill Clinton.

Speaker 6 (22:13):
If only, if only, But again, we'll see and listen
to Stephanie.

Speaker 2 (22:17):
I hope you're very stormy Daniels right now. Where she
We haven't seen her, and I haven't Where's Bill Clinton?
I haven't seen him yet, popping into the conversation.

Speaker 5 (22:27):
Away for a while.

Speaker 12 (22:27):
But I need someone to talk some sense into me
because there's one thing I always worry about, and maybe
that's possible for it to happen, But is there a
chance that some of the files or documents, like there's
no chance that something could disappear or things could sort
of I don't know, of course.

Speaker 2 (22:43):
Of course they can sure, and lots of things being redacted,
of course they can. And listen, we had mentioned this earlier.
By the way, Lisa Bryant, who's been on the show,
she directed the Filthy Rich documentary on Netflix that basically
exposes the Epstein case, as well as the one that
was a follow up about Guiley Maxwell. She's a friend

(23:04):
and a colleague and we worked together. She was on
the show speaking about her experience, even trying to go
to the island. And remember the front runner, the mean voice,
Virginia Gufrey. She took her own life by suicide back
in April of this year, so interesting timing in the
big scheme of it all. She directed this PSA, this

(23:26):
public service announcement, sorry for the acronym that you know.
It's getting distributed everywhere if you haven't seen it. It's
basically of many of the victims, including Haley who we
had on the show, Hailey Robson who was with us
last week, basically holding a photo of themselves at a
younger age when they were in fact targeted by Epstein himself.
And it's really touching and extremely powerful, and we love you,

(23:49):
Lisa for the work that you're putting forward. And she's
going to Capitol Hill tonight, as is Hailey Robinson who
we've had on the show, and all of the girls,
and they claim that, yeah, yeah, if push comes to shove,
as my mother would say, we're going to release our
list like this is not there is no getting out
of this. The walls are caving in, and that's pretty real, right,

(24:12):
So imagine forty plus women that are adults now who
are now going to Capitol Hill and are saying, despite
the fact that I'm putting my life in jeopardy, despite
the fact that I might lose my job, despite that
I might be sued for everything I have, I am
willing to say it out loud if in fact, Congress

(24:33):
doesn't approve whatever said bill needs to happen for the
release of the files, or ultimately it goes to Trump
to sign off on. And I feel assured and encouraged
that he will for all the same reasons he claims
there's nothing in it, and okay, let's.

Speaker 6 (24:49):
Go well, talking about being on the right side of
history of those survivors.

Speaker 3 (24:55):
Standing up and doing that, that's where.

Speaker 12 (24:59):
Yeah, powerful that it's I mean, it's just the way
it shot everything. But then I just when I saw
one of them saying fourteen years old, it just was
so triggering. And of course we mentioned Megan Kelly recently, but.

Speaker 3 (25:13):
Oh my gosh, did you see this, Meghan Kelly?

Speaker 5 (25:15):
Oh about that?

Speaker 3 (25:17):
Yes, And we also want to hear you just took
over glasses. It's very serious. She is ready, she's rolling
up sleeves.

Speaker 6 (25:25):
Listen, we'd love to hear your thoughts were at eighty
eight three one crime. This is true Crimestonight, I'm Courtney
Armstrong here as always with Stephanie Leidecker and with Buddy Moven,
and we're talking about the Epstein sexual assault and trafficking case.

Speaker 3 (25:38):
Tell us what you think, Megan Kelly, she told us
what she thinks.

Speaker 6 (25:42):
So she on her Serious XM podcast she questioned whether
Jeffrey Epstein qualifies as a pedophile, and her rationale was
he targets teens and not the really, really young children.
And this was said on the twelfth of November, five
days ago. Quote, he was into the barely legal type,
like he liked fifteen year old girls. And I realized

(26:05):
this is disgusting. I'm definitely not trying to make an
excuse for him. I'm just giving you facts. He wasn't
into like eight year olds. So she and what we
had said is split in hairs that should not be split.
It's insane, barely legal. Is illegal. They are children under
the age of eighteen, and the age of consent it

(26:26):
varies by state. It's a little bit complicated, but federally
it is eighteen. So I mean to say, are you
jumping into the.

Speaker 12 (26:33):
Comment, why are you even saying that? And Lord and
body pointsed earlier we were talking about it. She did
remind me that Megan was saying, this is something she
heard someone else.

Speaker 5 (26:42):
Say, so this wasn't necessarily what she was saying.

Speaker 4 (26:46):
She started it with, you know, I know a guy
or I know someone who's in all this, and he
says and then she, you know.

Speaker 5 (26:54):
She goes on to it. And what I kept waiting
at the end for her disgusting like I wanted her to.

Speaker 3 (27:00):
I did too. I kept waiting waiting you.

Speaker 12 (27:01):
Wouldn't say, like how horrific that this would happen, or
or I disagree, But she didn't, And I think that's
what made it. I mean, everything about what she said
was ridiculous and horrible, but not to even explain the
logic of why what this person is saying is horrible.

Speaker 2 (27:15):
Well, she's just in case somebody didn't see it, Yeah,
and in case you didn't hear it. It was basically
on her show. Yeah, she was making that distinction. And
let me ask you this question if in fact, it
was only eight year olds being discussed, If forty eight
year olds were going to Capitol Hill tomorrow and a
thousand eight year olds had been swept up into this ring,

(27:37):
would the cover up still exist? Does it actually make
a difference whether they're eight fourteen. By the way, let's
call them all thirty years old. Let's say thirty year
old women that were in the exact same situation we're
talking about victims. Does that mean the gymnastics coach who
was molesting a fifteen sixteen gymnasts year old?

Speaker 3 (27:59):
I should?

Speaker 2 (28:00):
I mean the lives much longer than that. And again
I'm just jumping paraphrasing top of head. Forgive me if
the numbers are wrong, but they were young girls that
were of teen age. You can't tell me that that
is a distinction worth making. It makes every victim across
the land in any universe, I think a little bit mad.
And yeah, I guess there's being some kickback, but it's

(28:22):
dangerous because Meghan Kelly has you know, four million followers
or something like. That's a lot of influence. And what
is the distinction. What's the point that it makes it
a little bit more?

Speaker 3 (28:33):
Okay?

Speaker 12 (28:34):
Yeah, there unless it's start us trying to maybe get
the public to think, okay.

Speaker 5 (28:40):
Maybe if we perspect to this number, it's not as bad.
I don't know what the logic is. It doesn't make
n don't either.

Speaker 3 (28:45):
But they're all children.

Speaker 4 (28:47):
It doesn't matter that they're children minors. So you're seventeen,
you're you're a child.

Speaker 3 (28:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (28:53):
What Megan Kelly did say was I think there is
a difference. There's a difference between a fifteen year old
and a five year old.

Speaker 2 (29:00):
So that was and I don't think there's a different
I mean, I think I understand the difference, and I
understand the point she's making. But whether you're five, fifteen,
or twenty five, you can still be the victim of abuse.

Speaker 3 (29:13):
By the way, you could be forty five, you can
be sixty five.

Speaker 2 (29:17):
It's circumstance and opportunity and brainwashing and grooming and all
of the things. And I think that's why tomorrow was
so significant, because it might be the moment, a watershed
moment that gets recognized once and for all.

Speaker 4 (29:31):
I feel like like this is like Watergate. We're on
that absolute water gate or something. Yes, yes, the nation.

Speaker 3 (29:38):
Collectively is in a parking lot. Correct. Oh my god, Yes,
you're right.

Speaker 2 (29:44):
That's a good way of putting it.

Speaker 9 (29:46):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (29:46):
Yeah, I feel really confident and well, I just feel
like I think we're all better than it, and I
think we can band together and make really good things happen.
And that's where I want to put my energy for
this exact moment of time.

Speaker 4 (29:58):
Okay, well, I hope your energy contagious and that it
moves on to me because I have doubts, but I
hope you're right.

Speaker 2 (30:04):
Listen, this is a busy b night, so we want
to hear your opinions. Prieze, sound off, We want to
hear all of it, help us understand and unpack. We're
in this together, So pull up your proverbial chair to
our proverbial kitchen table, because there's a lot to discuss,
and it's kind of divine timing in my humble opinion.

(30:26):
We have Chelsea Tersovich here with us now. Chelsea, she
reached out to us via DM as a listener many
months ago. We were just kind of kicking off the
show frankly, and you know, it was one of those
DMS that we received early on and we're like oof.
And she alerted us a to her experience but also
to a larger crime that had happened within the military

(30:49):
and kind of asked us to dig in and we've
been doing so. Courtney like jumped in head first, as
she always does, and it's one of those beautiful moments
that we get to be with you, Chelsea. It's so
wonderful to see you in person and see your face finally,
and you know, it's a really revealing thing to have

(31:09):
our community come together to say, Hey, I have a
story to share. And not only do I have a
story to share, but it's a really big one. Then
it's I have a story to share, and it's a
really big one that we've been digging into. And she's here.
And by the way, the night that you're here happens
to be a crazy night on the eve of what
could be one of the biggest nights prior to real

(31:34):
victim advocacy. The world can change, and I think the
world the kills just now for really we can do better,
and I think we can do better together. You know,
so as a as a centrist, as somebody who's right
down the millow who loves and really respects the military
so so much, we all do. Chelsea represents and Chelsea,

(31:54):
I won't say anymore. You know, Court, you can kind
of set up the backstory, but it really speak to
the true crime tonight community. And thank you for me.

Speaker 9 (32:05):
Oh, thank you.

Speaker 6 (32:06):
Yeah, sincerely, Chelsea, Are you comfortable if we read part
of the message you sent that started this whole thing?

Speaker 5 (32:13):
Okay?

Speaker 6 (32:14):
So here's fine, Okay, perfect, here's the DM. Did you
guys ever hear about the recent conviction of Army Major
John Batt. He was only convicted of recent assaults and rapes,
but this behavior has been occurring for more than a decade.
I know because I was a victim who didn't say
anything and I had my run in with him around

(32:35):
twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen. I know of at least four
other women at the same time as me as well.
His behavior is an example of what military women have
to deal with and usually in silence, sadly. So obviously
again we had to dig in because this is an issue.
And once we did started looking at the statistic, Chelsea,

(32:57):
you really opened up a world I was unaware of,
which makes me embarrassed.

Speaker 3 (33:03):
But listen now.

Speaker 2 (33:04):
Were same here. Thanks to you, Chelsea, we're learning.

Speaker 9 (33:09):
Well, thank you guys. Yeah, it's timely too, because as
I mentioned Tataha the other day, there's actually a whole
new thing coming out right now where there's an Army
obg y N who is being charged with recording and
filming his patients for a long time. At least eighty
five so far have come forward. There's potentially for one
thousand over a thousand though potentially.

Speaker 2 (33:32):
Oh my gosh, can you imagine? Can you imagine?

Speaker 3 (33:37):
Yes? I guess yes, Chelsea.

Speaker 9 (33:40):
Yeah. So yeah, it is sad to think about it,
and it is more common than people realized. So where
would you guys like to start?

Speaker 6 (33:50):
Honestly, so I'd love I'm just going to lay out
for anyone who is in conversant to think taste that you.

Speaker 3 (33:56):
I'd like to set the table.

Speaker 6 (33:59):
So Jonathan Batt, he's decorated, he was a US Army
major West Point graduate, and he was accused by numerous
women of really violent sexual assaults. And this dates back
well in this instance, this case to twenty nineteen.

Speaker 3 (34:16):
Of course, we know it dates back further.

Speaker 6 (34:19):
After a multi year investigation, and it was sparked in
part by post in a Facebook group called Army Dating
the Same Guy.

Speaker 3 (34:29):
So Via hosts so via post from that.

Speaker 6 (34:34):
Bat was court martialed at Fort Meade and Maryland and
then June of this year he was convicted on twenty
counts involving eight victims. He was sentenced to fifty three
years in prison. And this has been one of the
most significant sexual assault prosecutions that have been brought under
the military's new independent Office of Special Trial Counsel. So

(34:56):
that is the broad strokes of what happened, and without
going into too much more, I just want to underline
that it was it was violent, it was awful what
he's been accused of, and it was many multiple women.
I don't know, why don't we start what I guess

(35:17):
what prompted you to reach out and tell us that
we're so grateful that you did.

Speaker 9 (35:22):
Yeah, just all of the advocacy you guys do for
victims and like really bring attention to it. I thought
you guys would be a great platform to kind of
look into this and talk about it because it is
so common in the military to have sexual harassment, sexual assault,
mostly women, but men too, and there's just not enough

(35:44):
awareness outside of the military because we're kind of an
insular community, right, Like a lot of people know people
in the military, but don't know about the military until
you kind of meet one of us.

Speaker 3 (35:55):
True true, so and can we start, oh, Glen step No.

Speaker 2 (35:58):
I was just going to say, that's part of the culture, right,
Like you have to really be insulated, and that's kind
of what you're trained to do, is to to keep
it quiet because you're you know, you're doing very important
things quietly.

Speaker 4 (36:14):
And that's I guess part of the problem, right it
is how did you meet him? And like, were there
any in like what stood that right away?

Speaker 9 (36:23):
Sure? So I met him either on bumble or hinge
I can't remember, or not hinge a hinder back then,
one of those, right, And I wasn't looking for anything serious.
I had just gotten out of a relationship. I had
also been through a divorce where a very abusive ex
partner who was also sexually abusive. So I was actually

(36:44):
dealing with my own PTSD at the time and not
looking for anything, kind of reckless behavior on my part,
and so I met him with purely like I'm looking
for nothing. I don't want anything from you, and went
over to his house in time and started to see
things like there were tampons in the bathroom, and I
was like, do you have a girlfriend or something? No, No, No,

(37:06):
I have a roommate.

Speaker 5 (37:06):
She's a roommate.

Speaker 9 (37:07):
She's out of town. And over time he actually he
was so arrogant. He would bring us all together. He'd
take us out on his boat, so it wouldn't just
be me and the actual girlfriend who'd been with for
a while, it'd be other women too, and so we
all would start talking and we kind of all figured
it out. I picked up on his manipulation a lot quicker,

(37:29):
probably because of my fighting senses on full alert with
my own trauma resngs going on, but I stuck around
longer than I should have. He was never physically abusive
to me, but definitely put all of us in situations
that we wouldn't have gone to otherwise. Right, He was
very manipulative and coercive in that respect, So I do
think he's escalated over the years.

Speaker 4 (37:51):
So this was this was prior to the things that
he was convicted for, right, So it's almost like it
kind of sounds like he was like building him self up,
like when he was you know, in the in your presence,
like he was platforming himself getting ready, like do you
know what I mean, like.

Speaker 9 (38:07):
The build up, Oh, escalation, Yes, I thank you.

Speaker 3 (38:10):
I couldn't think of a word.

Speaker 2 (38:12):
True.

Speaker 3 (38:13):
Wow.

Speaker 4 (38:13):
Ok.

Speaker 9 (38:14):
I found out much later that this is kind of
behavior he's had since West Point. He was always kind
of creepy at West Point, but couldn't put the finger
on it. The people who knew him, and then I
am friends with a physician assistant who was part of
his unit at one point, was like, oh yeah, no,
everyone knew he was kind of broady and creepy and

(38:35):
was doing like weird things, but we didn't know the
extent of it until this came out, So it was
kind of like known but not known, right, Like that
was there was a vibe and he's been escalating that
over the.

Speaker 2 (38:47):
Years, which is interesting because again people are seeing it.
By the way, who hasn't been there Raise your hand
if you've ever been in a situation that you stayed
too long with something that you had all the red
flags for, like trust your gut, but you know, we
want to explain things away, right, and especially if you're
just coming out of a traumatic relationship, you know you're
a little frankly desensitized and it emotionally exhausted and wiped out.

(39:11):
So you know, this is like tier one stuff that
you know, you could see how it can get past
the goal line pretty quickly, even for the smartest of
smart yep.

Speaker 5 (39:23):
And that's the thing.

Speaker 9 (39:23):
He went for very intelligent women, Like all of the
women that I met through him are very smart women.
But he was able to kind of manipulate the situation
in our responses and gaslight us. So, yeah, this is.

Speaker 4 (39:40):
True crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking to crime all
the time. I'm body Moven and I'm here with Courtney
and Stephanie, and we are also lucky enough to be
joined by Chelsea, who is a victim, well a survivor.
Let's say of this as major a survivor.

Speaker 3 (39:55):
Let's say, yep, yes, can I ask you a question?

Speaker 4 (39:58):
Let me Okay, you said that you would go on
these boats or whatever, and there would be other women.

Speaker 3 (40:03):
What kind of things would you guys talk about?

Speaker 4 (40:05):
Like didn't like if listen, if I was like dating
somebody and I showed up to our date or our
outing and there were like four other women there, I'd
be like, what's going on? Like did you guys like
figure out like what was going on?

Speaker 9 (40:18):
Like I mean pretty quickly, he didn't really hide that
he was with other people, And for some of us
that wasn't an issue, like I didn't care that I
wasn't looking for anything right, but other were thinking it
was more one on one like him and them, And
so it kind of evolved, like our conversations at first
were kind of tentative and kind of feeling things out,

(40:40):
and then the more time you spent around each other,
it was like, oh, oh, so that's the kind of
relationship you have, Oh okay, And then over time, like
some of the other behaviors that he would have towards
us would start to be shared. So it took a
little while, and he think that was part of it,
but over time you can kind of be like, oh,
he's manipulating you in a similar way to me, but

(41:03):
just at a different time.

Speaker 6 (41:05):
So so Chelsea, when the investigation became public, How did
did that change how you understood your own experience with
him or what was that like for you personally?

Speaker 3 (41:18):
Chelsea.

Speaker 9 (41:20):
So, I actually didn't know about it until one of
the women I knew through John here in Savannah where
we met, she reached out and shared it with me,
And it was actually after he had been found guilty,
So I didn't even know any of this was happening
till after the fact. But it didn't surprise me. And
same thing for that woman when she sent me the article,
she was like, no surprise here, always a cree kind

(41:42):
of thing. So it definitely validated our experiences, but it
also it made me sad because to read the stories
of some of the women because he got very violent
with some of these people, and like, it breaks my
heart that it got to that point with them, and
that they didn't have anywhere to go other than to
the police, right they were they didn't have any other options.

Speaker 2 (42:04):
Really, And by the way, we talked about this a
bit last night too, So just imagine you're in the military,
and by the way, there's listen there, it's always debated,
like should even women be in the military, Like you
want to like you have to be. You have to
be tough as nails, right, you have to you have
to show up and put out and do what you
are told to do. So nobody really wants to hear

(42:25):
whining and complaining and reporting and stuff, right, whether that's
ever said or is that an undercunch.

Speaker 3 (42:32):
Listen, we've seen a few good men back in the day.

Speaker 6 (42:34):
You know.

Speaker 2 (42:35):
That is like a little bit of the air quotes culture,
which is important stuff. Right, you have to be with
your unit. So it's hard for anyone male or female
sometimes at a job to speak out because you don't
want to lose it. Imagine now you're in the military
or there's some association, it's it's like so frowned upon

(42:55):
and that is a real tough wall to stand up against,
and therefore it goes unsaid and escalates and then yeah,
now there's women who he's being violent with and maybe
you know that. Thank goodness, he's been brought to justice,
I guess to some extent.

Speaker 3 (43:12):
Fifty years in prison, and that's not that's not nothing.

Speaker 9 (43:16):
That's not military prison as well.

Speaker 2 (43:19):
It's also not nothing.

Speaker 9 (43:21):
Yeah, yeah, it's military prison that he's going to be
at for fifty three years.

Speaker 3 (43:25):
The Gulag, Isn't that what it's called? The Gulag?

Speaker 5 (43:28):
Isn't that what I mean?

Speaker 9 (43:30):
It's not pleasant, that's for sure.

Speaker 3 (43:32):
It's not pleasant.

Speaker 2 (43:33):
And that's not to the military to not messing around
with that, right. I think that's also a real cue
to women and you know survivors slash victims anywhere that
you know, Look, they're not messing around either. It's not
as black and white. And thank goodness, that's also your quotes.

Speaker 3 (43:51):
A little hopeful.

Speaker 4 (43:52):
I just was in formed the Gulag is actually Russian,
but okay, listen, it doesn't matter. It's just as bad, right,
military prison. I'm gonna call to go, and that's what
we're going to go with, because I just want to
I want to imagine that it's just terrible and awful
and he's suffering greatly in there and eating way.

Speaker 9 (44:07):
I mean it's it's there's hard labor usually incorporated into
it as well. I only know this from a distance
because I haven't been there. I was an everstation there,
but yeah, it's not a very easy prison to be
a part of. And one other thing I wanted to
mention it wasn't just military women that were victims or survivors.
It's actually a bunch of people that weren't associated with

(44:29):
the military, civilian women as we call it, right, And
for them, they're going up against this officer in the
military who has all this seniority and cloud and all
these things, and these in DC doing these jobs right,
and so that in itself is also scary, Like it's
one thing being in it, but it's also one thing
to be on the outside, and like what do you do, right?

(44:50):
Who do you go to if you're not even a
part of the military?

Speaker 10 (44:53):
Wow?

Speaker 4 (44:54):
Right?

Speaker 2 (44:55):
And by the way, sometimes it's just like you know what,
I'm just going to like eat it and just be
and go about my life and pick up the pieces
on my own and save my dreams for when I sleep.
But that's not how it works, right, Like trauma works
itself out in some way.

Speaker 4 (45:12):
Right, Well, coming up at the top of the hour,
Chelsea thankfully is not going anywhere and coming up the
powerful work she's doing now to support other military women
and later, Brian Walsh's murder trial is finally moving ahead,
but his attorney's wantcher shielded from super key details about
his wife Keep her here.

Speaker 3 (45:29):
True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (45:41):
Welcome back to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with
Courtney Armstrong, Body move in, Taha, Adam and Sam in
the control room on a really significant night. Happy Monday, everybody,
and listen. If you've missed any of the first hour
of the show, No Sweat, you could always catch us

(46:01):
right after as a podcast. Big Day Tomorrow and all
things Epstein related, and really at its core, it's really
a look at influence and power and you know, things
being made quiet because of powerful places and and you
know the Epstein case. It's all things government, right, and

(46:25):
how do you really go up against something so huge?
And we have with us such a special person, Chelsea
Tersovich is with us. She's been a listener of the
show and reached out via DM sharing her story of
survival and really busting open a case for us that
we hadn't heard about in the military, where the accused

(46:47):
is now looking at fifty years behind bars. Military. By
the way, it's a military sentence, not easy. Yes, what
is it called a gulag?

Speaker 4 (46:59):
Is that that's what when I when I was a
little girl and I was really bad because I was
a bad little girl.

Speaker 3 (47:05):
My mom would always say, I'm sending you to the Gulag, and.

Speaker 4 (47:08):
I would, and I realized that I came to find
out it was prison, so I just I just called
bad prisons the Gulag.

Speaker 3 (47:14):
That's fair, my mother used to make. Yeah, and listen.

Speaker 2 (47:22):
This is a really oddly divinely timed night because again,
the military is a place that we so value, right.
These are people who are putting their lives on the
line to defend us, and yet sometimes the inner circle
of that can also have some some issues because it's
hard to speak out right. So I think that's kind
of the theme of the night, and we don't have

(47:45):
all the answers. We're all kind of navigating it together
as a community. And that's why Chelsea being here is
so significant, because you know, she's just we're opening the convo.
So if you have a story you want to share
or something to add eight eight A to three one crime,
please join us or leave us a talkback or a
dm us. We do get them, and we genuinely care

(48:06):
and we're glad you're here in court. You can maybe
set the table for us as only you would say
yes so table, baby, that's right.

Speaker 6 (48:15):
So the case again that Chelsea brought to us is
Jonathan Batt, and he was an or.

Speaker 3 (48:24):
No, I guess he is not anymore. I'm sure he
was stripped. Yeah, he was a.

Speaker 6 (48:29):
Decorated US Army major. He was a West Point graduate,
and he was also accused by numerous women of violent
sexual assaults. And this particular case encompasses the time from
twenty nineteen moving forward. The investigation lasted for many years,
and it was brought by women in a Facebook group,

(48:52):
some of it through posing are we dating the same guy?
Was the group and Bat was ultimately court martialed at
Fort Meade and convicted on twenty counts. It involved eight victims.
He was sentenced to fifty three years in prison. As
I like to say, mayor reputch or so. And some
of the details, and this goes back to a lot

(49:14):
of the mo that Chelsea was describing was that met
allegedly a bunch of these women through different dating apps
or social circles in and around DC. Ultimately, the victims
described patterns of strangulation for sex and escalating violence and body.

(49:35):
You had a couple of more details to share, so
we get the scope of the crime.

Speaker 4 (49:39):
Right, So you just talked about from twenty nineteen to
twenty twenty three. But in early twenty twenty three, there
were multiple women that posted warning about him, about Jonathan
Batt in this Facebook group, Are we dating the same guy?
Their stories all matched, and that pushed the Army to
launch a formal investigation. So to have gotten back to,

(50:02):
you know, the powers that be in the Army that hey,
there's this Facebook group and they're posting about one of
our majors. Oh my gosh, this is terrible, and they
opened up an investigation. What happened next?

Speaker 3 (50:13):
Gor God bless, God bless.

Speaker 6 (50:17):
And then so the CID, which stands for the Army,
it's the Criminal Investigation Division. So the CID interviewed victims,
they reviewed text messages and the dating app logs, they
did medical forensic exams, and as more women continued to
go forward, the case ultimately grew into one of the

(50:37):
largest sexual assault investigations in recent Army history. So it
was really brown ground breaking.

Speaker 4 (50:43):
The Army was going through the logs of these dating
apps that he must have his sign on, and going
through all the women he must have messaged, maybe even
contacting them. Hey, you know, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (50:54):
I'm so grateful that they did, though, you know, heads
off to the army.

Speaker 4 (50:58):
That's off to the army for protect protect You ever
heard of this before internally as well? And that's important stuff, right.
So in twenty twenty four, after the Army did all
this and whatnot, that was charged with dozens of offenses
involving up to twenty women. Twenty women. The charges later

(51:22):
were narrowed for the trial. Wow, yeah, women, it's unbelievable.

Speaker 6 (51:27):
In the trial itself took, it took several weeks, and
this happened at Fort Meade, and the victims testified it
was kind of staggering stuff. They were being choked, unconscious, restrained,
assaulted after saying no, they were. They suffered bruising, they
suffered neck injuries. The defense's claim was that everything was consensual,

(51:51):
but the prosecutors argued that, you know, it was not consensual,
and I guess there. The defense's argument was that there
was some continued contact with the women's after the assault,
which of course can be very common in trauma cases
for sure, for sure. And then ultimately, yeah, is that

(52:13):
anything you care to speak to Chelsea?

Speaker 9 (52:18):
Sure? Yeah, I mean just in my own personal experience, right,
I was married to someone who sexually assaulted me. I
was in that marriage for five years, right, and then
I left that marriage. And John wasn't the next person,
but he was part of my experience. And like we
talked about earlier, I stuck around even though there were
flags towards the end. I stuck around to try and

(52:40):
help some of the other women to also kind of
see it and get out of it. But still way
longer than I should have. It's so common, like, so
so common. You guys talk so much about survivors of
domestic abuse and sexual assault. If you haven't watched it,
I know you guys watch a lot of stuff. But
The Maid on Netflix goes into a really, really good

(53:03):
So it was hard for me to watch. Honestly, it
was like re traumatizing it. It took me a long time
to watch it because it felt so true to my experience.

Speaker 2 (53:10):
We just talked about this the other night. Sometimes somebody
who's the victim of domestic abuse or abusive in any way,
but sometimes in a relationship, a marriage, you might go
back seven times is the average. Yeah, So just like
and by the way, this goes both ways. This is
not just women, by the way, men are the greatest.
There's we're talking about the portion that stink on all sides.

(53:34):
So this is not us against men and vice versa.
But we're just talking about an abusive relationship that somebody
might not allow grace to themselves because they've gone back before,
or because they've allowed the you know, perpetrator back in
their homes. You almost want to convince yourself that it's
not true. Therefore you maybe allow it back in, because

(53:57):
that would mean that you didn't make a terrible mistake
in the first place.

Speaker 4 (54:02):
Right.

Speaker 9 (54:03):
Also, there's guilt around just allowing it happened in the
first place. I know that was part of my problem
and being able to talk about it, because I really
didn't acknowledge most of what happened to me for almost
a decade. Right it was even with John, like I
honestly odd a sight out of mind, didn't even think
about it until someone brought it to my attention again,

(54:23):
and I was like, oh, yeah, that guy, and so
it's it just your brain protects itself in different ways,
and so for me, mine was just like, we're just
not going to think about it anymore. It's fine, but
the reality is to move forward and to heal, you
got to talk about it and work through it and
hopefully help other people not get into this position.

Speaker 4 (54:44):
I have a question, So when, so this this all
happened after you like broke up like date, stop seeing him?
When you when you saw all this in the headlines
and whatnot, were you shocked or were you like, oh
that tracks now.

Speaker 9 (54:58):
No, I wasn't, and either was the other person who
brought it to my attention. It was kind of like, yeah,
that's things about right, based on kind of the behaviors
I saw that they had experienced.

Speaker 5 (55:10):
It was some of.

Speaker 9 (55:11):
Those early stages of very like aggressive kind of sexual
encounters like choking but not to the point of passing out,
being kind of coercive, being rough right and intimidating, you know,
like did I, yeah, did I think that? I don't
feel like I did agree to that. So it didn't
surprise me.

Speaker 4 (55:30):
Oh, I've been those kinds of relationships to where they
make you question yourself like.

Speaker 3 (55:34):
Oh did I did I say that was okay? Or
it just makes me crazy? It just makes me crazy. Wow.

Speaker 2 (55:41):
So, by the way, if you're just joining us, please
or me deep in a conversation just about you know,
the abuse of power that could potentially happen in any place.
And in this one, the army and the army really
fought back, right, they weren't taking it, and the now
found guilty fifty years that's a real sentence. And again

(56:01):
we're just talking about like trauma responses. And again you
can push it under the carpet. You might have a
negative experience or something traumatic, whether you're male or female,
be like, listen, this is not worth a headache. This
who knows, I'm just going to push this aside. You
know what happens, like your body takes it right, that
comes out in other ways. Suddenly you're you know, you

(56:22):
get sickly, or something might happen physically for you, because
trauma has to work its way through. So whether you're
it's so much easier hopefully to talk it out, but
not everybody feels like they have a place where they
can do so safely, and that's a really isolating people. Yeah,
because the shame game is so shame, it's so real,

(56:42):
it's such a big deal, and it's so embarrassing to
admit that, Hey, as a smart human, I walked into
a tough situation.

Speaker 3 (56:53):
Join the club. Yeah, really.

Speaker 2 (56:58):
So aching light.

Speaker 6 (56:59):
But Chelsea, you we understand are no longer in the
military but are working on a doctorate.

Speaker 2 (57:08):
We would love to hear a little about it.

Speaker 9 (57:11):
Sure.

Speaker 6 (57:11):
So.

Speaker 9 (57:12):
I have been out with military since twenty nineteen and
I've been a practicing physician assistant physician associate depending on
what state you're in, for over a decade now. When
I got out, I fell into psychiatric medicine and I
have worked with a lot of people with particularly trauma
over the last five years. Decided to go for my
doctorate as a PA, and part of my capsin project

(57:34):
is doing a paper looking at the research steps out
there on female veterans suicide screening in like primary care
and like what is out there And I will tell
you it is not much. And so my goal is
to identify like the gap in research and what we're
doing for women because it is a big problem. There
is a lot of suicide ideation, there's a lot of

(57:54):
high rate of suicide in this population, higher than civilian women,
like two times higher than some billion. It's rapidly increasing.
So how do we help these women get through this?
How do we catch it earlier to support them earlier
so they don't feel like they have to end their lives.

Speaker 3 (58:10):
That's an important gap analysis.

Speaker 9 (58:13):
Yeah, I was holorified at how that is if.

Speaker 6 (58:16):
I remember this is again way back when we first
connected just on the phone. Did I remember correctly that
really even the questionnaire was kind of all geared towards men.

Speaker 9 (58:29):
So the ZA the Veteran Affairs has a analytical prediction
model that is predominantly geared towards the highest population the
people that have committed suicide, which is like white, older men,
and it's not geared towards women. It's not necessarily geared
towards subpopulations of different ethnicities. It is improving slowly, but

(58:54):
that's one tool. The tools that we traditionally use are
gender neutrals. They've been tested in just like general populations
and aren't necessarily specifically designed for women. Right, it's not
going into and definitely not female veterans because there are
some unique things we deal with, like military sexual trauma
or you know, access to firearms at higher rates than

(59:15):
the general population. There's all these things that we just
don't think about that that population deals with.

Speaker 4 (59:21):
So what is the biggest message you want other women
to take away from what you went through.

Speaker 3 (59:27):
You know.

Speaker 9 (59:28):
One of the things that I always felt like was
I was alone right all through going through my PTSD.
Was I felt so alone that no one was out
there for me. And the reality is there's lots of people.
It's just being able to open up and start talking
about it. My husband now is fabulous. He knows everything.
He knows. The mom was called a night even though

(59:48):
he's asleep for work tomorrow. My best friend, my sisters,
they all know right because I had towards art communicating
if I was going to heal. So you're not alone,
even though it feels that way, you're not.

Speaker 3 (01:00:00):
And that is true.

Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
So you have to feel it to heal it, right, and
like you have to talk about some talking.

Speaker 3 (01:00:05):
Is like it's real cheap, right.

Speaker 2 (01:00:07):
We talk every night because I do think it's the
greatest healer of all time. And people think that, like, oh,
I'm saying something that's never been said before, and then
they say it and you're like, well, okay, you're fine.
Like you can heal probably from anything once you kind
of get it.

Speaker 3 (01:00:26):
Off your chest.

Speaker 2 (01:00:26):
But like the weight of it, as I wear my
weighted vest sometimes that's far greater than it needs to
be right, and we hear that here even Melanie the
other night, Like sometimes people just have to say it
out loud takes all the power away, it really does.

Speaker 9 (01:00:41):
Absolutely I agree. And yeah, I just wanted to say
thank you ladies so much for having me and Taha
and the guy. I appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (01:00:48):
We absolutely love you and anybody listening. We're not alone.
You are in a community. We support you. And and Chelsea,
you are the.

Speaker 4 (01:00:57):
Smarty bands smoking the world so much better, smarty pants.

Speaker 13 (01:01:01):
I know.

Speaker 6 (01:01:04):
Well, we'll have to come back to celebrate, no kidding, Chelsea,
thank you for joining us, and everybody stick around because
we are going to get into Brian Walsh who prepares
to face a jury. Attorneys are doing some real surprising stuff.
We've got that more true crime tonight. We're talking true
crime all the time.

Speaker 2 (01:01:33):
Welcome back to true crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We've been
talking true crime all the time. Stephanie here with Courtney
and Body and man, is Chelsea so inspiring.

Speaker 3 (01:01:44):
I'm so grateful that she was here.

Speaker 2 (01:01:46):
And again it harkens us back to when this is
somebody who she reached out pretty early on when we
first launched, and I don't know, it just feels very
full circle. It seems very appropriately timed, even if not
is it wasn't No, it certainly wasn't intentional.

Speaker 3 (01:02:04):
It just happened to play out that way.

Speaker 2 (01:02:05):
And boy, talk about talking about moving your message forward.
She's getting her PhD. She's going to be a doctor.

Speaker 3 (01:02:13):
Doctor smarty pants.

Speaker 2 (01:02:14):
That's why doctor smarty Pants is going to help everybody,
and maybe we can just keep having her back to
maybe answer questions or help anybody else who might find
themselves in a similar circumstance because again, in the military,
the stuff that is a very specific lane that might
be hard to navigate. So what an incredible resource she

(01:02:35):
is and will continue to be. It's so it's so extraordinary.
So high five to Chelsea emotion five.

Speaker 12 (01:02:43):
Yeah, she was fantastic and I really was. You could
just feel her energy on the phone and in person
right now. But she's definitely someone we're going to keep
in touch with. So case that she was talking about,
oh yeah, she started to foreshadow that one a little
bit and I was like, this is crazy, but that's
definitely one we're going to be doing again.

Speaker 5 (01:03:03):
But I'm just going to say.

Speaker 12 (01:03:04):
It just shows the power of our listeners out there
that what they send in to us is something that
we definitely respond to. So please everyone keeps sending in
your suggestions and your dms, and we go through them all.
As a matter of fact, guys, we've got a couple
of talkbacks that I wanted to do.

Speaker 5 (01:03:20):
Away hit it. Let's do it.

Speaker 14 (01:03:24):
Hi, everyone, this is Deanna from Georgia. I was listening
to the podcast where you were talking about the nexium
cult and it kind of reminded me of Leah Remeni's
documentary series on Scientology. It came out a while ago,
but there were three seasons of it and it was

(01:03:46):
fascinating and horrifying all at the same time.

Speaker 3 (01:03:50):
Listen, listen, Deanna. I'm not to talk to you. You
and me. By the way, my name is my real
name is Deana.

Speaker 2 (01:03:59):
Oh boy, and Deanna gets me.

Speaker 3 (01:04:04):
Deanna feels me. I'm kind of obsessed with scientology. I'm
not gonna lie. I know we're terrified to.

Speaker 15 (01:04:11):
Talk about it. Where is Shelley Muscar Where is Shelley?
Answer that question? By the way, I have a immed
It's actually on Wednesday. I shouldn't really say this. It's
just like a general meeting with the person who made
the show, the Scientology show. So I'm hoping that they'll

(01:04:33):
come on and discuss.

Speaker 4 (01:04:35):
Yes, that would be great because I that was such
a good such her documentary, the series was so good.
And by the way, Mike, I think it's I think
his name was Renner. He's the guy that does that
that documentary with her. He passed away just recently. Yeah, yeah,

(01:04:56):
but really good, Deanna, I mean so good. And if
you haven't seen it yet, watch Going Clear on HBO.
It's also a fantastic documentary, so good, and of course
both Mike and Leah are also in.

Speaker 2 (01:05:12):
That as well.

Speaker 6 (01:05:13):
And it's Going Clear. Is that from a while ago,
like twenty thirteen? It's from pre COVID.

Speaker 4 (01:05:20):
It's pre COVID, but I don't maybe like twenty sixteen,
twenty fifteen.

Speaker 3 (01:05:25):
Yeah, okay, that one closed.

Speaker 12 (01:05:28):
A little bit because I remember learning a lot more
about scientology and that's the only way I think it
would have.

Speaker 6 (01:05:33):
But oh, director Alec Gibney, that's right, of course, just fat.

Speaker 4 (01:05:40):
And yeah, three seasons and there's like eight episodes a
season for the one of Leelam the Lea remeny one
and it's it's just fabulous.

Speaker 3 (01:05:48):
It's absolutely so good. Dana, thank you for that recommendation.
And way if you don't know what this is about.

Speaker 2 (01:05:54):
Leah Remedy famous actress, remember her from what was the
show called Queens Queens And she's like an extraordinary actress.
Also like BFFs with j Lo in the real world.
And she's pretty too, so pretty, so cool. I somehow
watch her reality show on the one with her husband
and her child. Yeah, I'm really into her. And she

(01:06:17):
deflected basically from scientology.

Speaker 3 (01:06:20):
She's now a suppressive person.

Speaker 2 (01:06:22):
Exactly, and scientology being a very big air quotes church obviously,
Tom Cruise being at the helm of it and miscotch
of it, Davids Damage. David Miskevitch is like the leader and.

Speaker 4 (01:06:38):
His wife was but he died right the Scavige. She
has a wife named Shelley Miskevitch and she's been missing
for gosh ten years or so. Wow, nobody knows where
she's at and nobody l a p D you want
to like nothing, It's it's like a big conspiracy. And

(01:07:00):
anybody who talked about stalk you, Yeah, they do that. Yeah,
I have two stories on that front, I.

Speaker 5 (01:07:07):
Do took with those just for.

Speaker 6 (01:07:10):
People who don't know, like me, she's been missing since
two thousand and seven, eighteen years, so.

Speaker 3 (01:07:17):
Yeah, anyway longer than ten. Longer than ten then my bad,
my bad, eighteen just for yeah. And here's the thing.

Speaker 2 (01:07:23):
Leader's white.

Speaker 4 (01:07:25):
They they they use like really, they have like operation
manuals for you know, suppressing people who they label suppressive people. Okay,
and it's law fair, it's stalking, it's listen. I'm terrified
for what I even just said.

Speaker 2 (01:07:42):
I I know same.

Speaker 3 (01:07:43):
I'm afraid to talk about it too.

Speaker 5 (01:07:45):
But I'm the kids.

Speaker 2 (01:07:47):
Anybody that I know who tried to do a project
about where is Shelley? It got shut down because they
come in hot with the lawsuits. And by the way,
where is Shelley? So the leader's wife has just vanished
for so many years. That's interesting and suspicious and scary,
and everybody just wants to know where she's at. Meanwhile,

(01:08:09):
Leah Remedie, the actress, she just goes rogue. She gets out,
maybe the best way to stay alive is to do
a show about what happens in scientology. Right, I'll be
and center smart back in the day, I used to
work at a place. Know, I used to live in
an apartment, and my neighbor in this apartment was this

(01:08:31):
beautiful young woman. She was a single mom, and her
like behaviors were very strange. Her days were nights. She
would kind of like sneak into her place. She would
have like odd behaviors. She was escaping scientology, I later
find out, and was being straight up stock and people
were harassing her, following her, and she was so paranoid

(01:08:55):
that she was like literally going to her apartment and
she was like a young I was a young single mom,
so like I recognized sort of that harrowing look on
her face. She was like trying to escape and they
were following her day and day out, and how horrifying.
And you know, we can get into the Tom Cruise

(01:09:16):
thing at a later date. But what the.

Speaker 4 (01:09:20):
Had a million year contract? Oh my goodness, it's great, dude,
this is the whole show. This.

Speaker 12 (01:09:32):
I couldn't tell if people were joking and they were like,
I'm scared to cover it.

Speaker 2 (01:09:35):
Yes, no, no, no, we're genuinely scared to cover it.

Speaker 6 (01:09:40):
As Stephanie had referenced, there were people who produced obviously
the doc and we had reason to be at the
office several different times and security and like it's it's.

Speaker 3 (01:09:52):
For serious, it's for serious.

Speaker 6 (01:09:54):
I remember hearing there was one famous woman I had
heard a doc and it was similar to what you
were saying, Stephanie. She tried to leave and her stories
were I mean, it was just insane the lengths, and
all she wanted to do was break free.

Speaker 2 (01:10:13):
Free, And by breaking free, you're not allowed to speak
to your immediate family, your mother, your father, your sister,
your brother in her case, in this you know, nameless
person's case, she was raised in scientology, she was born
into it. Her mother was a high ranking Scientology official.
Her father was also in scientology. She was on the
sea ORG, which is like this boat that for your

(01:10:36):
teen years you go, you separate from your parents and
you go on this like ship for an extended period
of time to really learn the exactly you learn about
the key tenants of society of scientology and.

Speaker 3 (01:10:52):
Kind of the stick is you break away.

Speaker 2 (01:10:54):
From your familial of your family basically, and so by
leaving you have to literally leave every single person you know,
your childhood, et cetera.

Speaker 3 (01:11:06):
You're not allowed to have contact.

Speaker 2 (01:11:08):
And if you're on the other side of it, somebody
you love leaves scientology. For example, my old neighbor's parents,
they are not allowed to have contact with her, So
you have to just discommunicate your considered That's.

Speaker 3 (01:11:22):
Why Nicole Kidman doesn't have contact.

Speaker 2 (01:11:24):
With her correct kid Yeah, allegedly, allegedly allegedly.

Speaker 3 (01:11:30):
Prepare ourselves for this.

Speaker 4 (01:11:31):
I used to date someone. I used to date a
PI like a private investigator, and all of their clients
right up your alley, and it was like fifteen years ago,
like a really long time ago, but all of their
clients were scientology, right.

Speaker 2 (01:11:48):
So yeah, to the point, so she would she was
trying to get out of it, as they would basically
hire people to follow her to intimidate her. So everywhere
she went there would be a black car behind her,
and then when she would get out, there would be
like a scary.

Speaker 3 (01:12:02):
Man staring at her taking photographs.

Speaker 2 (01:12:05):
Then they would follow her to the grocery store and
like bump into her as she was carrying groceries.

Speaker 3 (01:12:10):
This would have happen all day, all night.

Speaker 2 (01:12:12):
This was like a person will signed to bully you
twenty four hours a day just to make you either
a come back and zip it, or if you were
going to deflect to make sure that you weren't actually
speaking to anybody who would report on it.

Speaker 5 (01:12:27):
That's crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:12:28):
Well I guess that's a real thing too, Like that's
not even like a pretend thing.

Speaker 3 (01:12:32):
No, and it's crazy making.

Speaker 6 (01:12:34):
Can you imagine the stress no of being did you
guys seem not to switch topic too much, but did
you guys see Baby Reindeer?

Speaker 5 (01:12:44):
Yes, no, very great, Yes I did.

Speaker 3 (01:12:47):
It's like a depressing watch, but yes I did.

Speaker 5 (01:12:49):
But she's basically like Holidays the last following.

Speaker 6 (01:12:53):
Yeah, it was just it was I thought it was
a very good insight into someone who's sort of who's
being stalked.

Speaker 3 (01:12:59):
And it'll make you go crazy.

Speaker 4 (01:13:02):
Yeah, you question yourself, right, you're questioning everything and everything.

Speaker 2 (01:13:07):
Yeah, by the way, you know it, if you're being
stalked and somebody has their eyes on you, you're really
well aware of it.

Speaker 3 (01:13:16):
And that's the goal.

Speaker 5 (01:13:17):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:13:17):
So stalkers have the intention of making you aware they're there.
It's not a secret thing. They want you to know
that they have either assigned somebody to follow you everywhere
so that you never feel alone. And that's like accountability
in some weird messed up way they want their presence known.
It's not like they're sninking in a bush and you're

(01:13:38):
not aware of it.

Speaker 3 (01:13:39):
It's almost as though.

Speaker 2 (01:13:40):
They want you to be aware of it. And in
the case of scientology, that would track bybe reindeer, that
would track. It's not anonymous and like, hey, I'm like
curious and you would never know it. No a true stalker. Well,
I don't know how you say true stalker. Well, there's
so many shapes.

Speaker 4 (01:13:58):
Do you remember when we were wondering if Brian Coberger
was stalking in the girls? So I went in and
there was one of the pre trial hearings where Bill
Thompson got up and he said, Brian Coberger was not
There's no connection, there's no connection, he wasn't stalking the girls.
I went and looked up the law, like what's the
stalking law? And in Idaho, and I think in a

(01:14:20):
lot of places you have to you have to in
order to be declared a stalker.

Speaker 3 (01:14:25):
Your victim has to know you're stalking them.

Speaker 4 (01:14:27):
So it made me think, like there are cases I
think where the victim doesn't know they're being stalked.

Speaker 2 (01:14:34):
True, and they're being cased also, which is a thing
or just somebody is just like watching you, which is
also you'reusing from horrifying horrifying on every level, and stalking
also could imply somebody's being hired to be following you
around so that you also know that you're not alone.

Speaker 3 (01:14:54):
Yeah, like that exactly right. We only can anybody who's.

Speaker 2 (01:14:57):
Had experience and that kind of you can probably you
kind of know it's there, but nobody who trust their gut.

Speaker 3 (01:15:04):
It's so hard. It's so hard to trust your gut.

Speaker 2 (01:15:08):
And I guess that's the Chelsea takeaway, even from the
last segment or even in any of the things we've
talked about tonight.

Speaker 3 (01:15:15):
You have to trust your gut.

Speaker 2 (01:15:16):
It's louder than you may think, and people will believe you.

Speaker 4 (01:15:21):
My gut likes cheeseburgers, trusted, trusted double double animal style.

Speaker 2 (01:15:28):
Boy, do I miss in and out? That's one of
the many things I missed out, La. I'll bring it
to you when I come and myself. Yes, you're invited tomorrow.
Anything no, no, no, By the way, they do really good.

Speaker 3 (01:15:44):
To move somewhere without in and out. That's it's apparently
apparently coming.

Speaker 2 (01:15:49):
Six lots of chatter about it do they take to
celiact disease very seriously?

Speaker 3 (01:15:54):
Also depends yeah, oh yeah, they very much done.

Speaker 11 (01:15:57):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:15:58):
Do you have Trader Joe's.

Speaker 2 (01:16:00):
We do have Trader Joe's, But you know, the parking
lot of Trader Joe's, no matter where you live.

Speaker 5 (01:16:05):
Is everywhere.

Speaker 3 (01:16:06):
Why is that the case?

Speaker 2 (01:16:07):
Can we clear?

Speaker 9 (01:16:08):
Then?

Speaker 3 (01:16:08):
Is lovely?

Speaker 6 (01:16:09):
It's at the place where Stephanie used to It's the
parking lot was their favorite place because it also has
home goods at the.

Speaker 4 (01:16:19):
Note that Joe's is always an amazing, amazing shopping center.

Speaker 2 (01:16:25):
It's always everywhere it's goods to I know, I ever
goes to the home Goods next to the Trader Joe's.
She shops at Trader Joe's, and then she refuses to
go to TJ. Max don't have the best candles. I honestly,
when I close my eyes and I'm like, what's her

(01:16:46):
happy place, it's in the middle of a dance floor
or home goods TJ home.

Speaker 4 (01:16:52):
I will be in there for hours, and I probably
believe like one thing, but I'm in there for hours.

Speaker 3 (01:16:59):
Oh my god.

Speaker 6 (01:17:00):
We all have our own happy places, but listen, keep
it here, because after the break we are going to
finally get to Brian Walsh and the preparation that's going
into him facing a jury and what his lawyers are
up to.

Speaker 3 (01:17:14):
It's interesting.

Speaker 6 (01:17:16):
Keep it here True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (01:17:28):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We've been
talking true crime all the time. I'm Steph here with
Courtney and Body and just as a reminder, tomorrow is
Talkback Tuesday. Talkback Tuesdays are our most favorite because you
guys get to sound off and tell us what you're thinking.
So keep those talkbacks coming. All you have to do
is number one, you can download the iHeartRadio app, and

(01:17:52):
then in your top right hand corner there's this like
little microphone icon. You literally just push that leave a
message and then we get the message and we'll play
it on the show. Or you could also you could
also leave us a message after hours at eight eight
eight three one crime, kind of like an old school voicemail.
Or you could always dm us at True Crime Tonight

(01:18:13):
show on Instagram and TikTok or at True Crime Tonight
on Facebook. So there's no excuse to not share your thoughts.
We want to hear them. And Boddy, what do you
have for us? Okay, fine, are you going to talk
about a murder case? Bring my sister.

Speaker 4 (01:18:33):
So Brian Walsh, you know, he has been declared competent.
We talked about this last week. He has been declared
competent to stand trial following his evaluation at the Bridgewater
State Hospital. And guess what, you guys, dry selection begins tomorrow.

Speaker 3 (01:18:48):
You know, we're talking about a big day.

Speaker 4 (01:18:50):
And you know, we were talking about this big day
stuff and I was like, oh, yes, the bride and
the Brian.

Speaker 3 (01:18:54):
Walsh jury start. Then you were like no, the epstein.
I was like, oh no, no, but yeah, the big day,
big day. Yeah, a jury selection starts tomorrow.

Speaker 4 (01:19:03):
They pulled about seventy people, the judges looking to see
about sixteen or so, you know, because they need alternates
and whatnot. Sure, and opening statements are tentatively scheduled to
start for December first. And this is all happening in
Norfolk County, Massachusetts. So meanwhile, the defense is moving to
block character evidence about his missing wife, and they have

(01:19:26):
concerns are mounting over the former trooper Michael Proctor's role
in this investigation. And I remember Michael Proctor is the
infamous let's say I'll say he's the villain in the
Karen Reid story, right, would that be an accurate I
think he's the villain in the Karen Reid story, and
you know he he had was also in this investigation

(01:19:50):
as well, so of course the defense is looking into
his everything. Michael Proctor via Brian Walsh. So today the
judge said that opening statements like I said, are scheduled
to start summer. First, the defense requests the court bar
testimony that describe Anna the victim, as a loving mother

(01:20:14):
or a dedicated employee, arguing such statements are prejudicial. So
they don't want, like, you know, any of Anna's friends
or coworkers or whatnot.

Speaker 3 (01:20:24):
To get a stand yeah and say she was just
a great mom.

Speaker 2 (01:20:27):
No, she was a wonderful person and didn't just start
to die. Why would the defense want anyone saying of.

Speaker 6 (01:20:32):
Course right, I've never I've never heard of such a thing.

Speaker 2 (01:20:36):
I know, have you guys, no like memory I'm thinking
of I'm spacing one. It's Connecticut, that horrible murder with
Jennifer where her husband was like lying in wait in Greenwich,
Connecticut in her garage when she came home from drop off,

(01:20:57):
and then he murdered her and dismembered her and put
her in all the various trash cans throughout even like
to New Haven. We covered this, we know this. My
point is in that what was his name, Michael something?
Forgive me, yeah, but I remember that sort of being
something that like, well, we don't want to hear how

(01:21:19):
great she was, Okay, great, the most loving mother of
four children. Really we don't get to hear that. That's insane.

Speaker 3 (01:21:28):
It's it is insane.

Speaker 4 (01:21:28):
And you know, the defense is going to continue to investigate,
of course, the role of Michael Proctor in this case.
They're raising questions about the credibility of evidence and the
chain of custody and this remains an developing component. Wow, yeah,
it's kind of nuts. And also we learned that they
have this video of Anna and her kids and Brian's
kids there. You know, they share kids in like their

(01:21:52):
living room on this rug. Okay, and guess what he
wrapped her in because they found that rug in a
dumpster by his mom's house, and in that dumpster was
the identical rug and like a bone fragment and a saw.
And so the defense doesn't want the video admitted, obviously,

(01:22:17):
but the judge said, we're going to admit at least
a screenshot of the video, so a picture will be
added to the evidence, which is great because they needed that.

Speaker 13 (01:22:28):
So wait, this psychopath actually rolled his wife up that
he killed allegedly, allegedly, allegedly in a rug that was
in his home that there's photographed proof of that.

Speaker 2 (01:22:39):
His kids know this rug. They've laid on that rug
watching television and hanging out as a family, right, and
then he brought it to the mother's dumpster by his
mom's house. Can you imagine me and his mom?

Speaker 4 (01:22:54):
Well, guess what his mom was in court today and
the judge had maker leave because you know she's well
she's not on the witness list, but because you know
it could happen. He he made the the his mom leave.

Speaker 2 (01:23:09):
Because because she didn't he the judge made her leave
because she was too emotional.

Speaker 4 (01:23:15):
Or if you're going to be a witness at a
crime or a criminal trial, you can't like watch you know.

Speaker 2 (01:23:21):
It did's my witness. The county people who testified, they.

Speaker 3 (01:23:29):
Can sit after they've testified. But yeah, it was after it.

Speaker 6 (01:23:33):
Was after yeah, yeah, yeah, you can't hear it because
you could be influenced.

Speaker 3 (01:23:37):
You can be influenced, so you can't, you know, for
all these things. So yeah, he made her leave.

Speaker 4 (01:23:42):
The defense tried to move the venue by the way too,
and the judge said, now was the reason for media
to move the media coverage and they were concerned about
the Karen Reid demonstrators.

Speaker 3 (01:23:57):
So but you know, because of Michael Procter.

Speaker 2 (01:24:00):
And can we just like sum up, Michael Proctor in
case you're just joining us. So Karen Reid very infamously
this I think it was last summer. This whole six
months has been a bit of an exciting blur. Karen
Reid was retried for the second time in the death
of her then boyfriend. She was found innocent and there

(01:24:22):
was a lead investigator, and that lead investigator was also
present the night of the Karen Reid incident where she
allegedly or was being accused of hitting her boyfriend at
the time with a.

Speaker 3 (01:24:36):
Car after a party.

Speaker 2 (01:24:38):
At the party was Michael Proctor and a bunch of
other cops in this Boston town. And then Michael Proctor,
who's now heading up the investigation of his buddy who
allegedly Karen Reid hit with her car, was not a
great investigator, and it came out that there was like

(01:24:58):
a lot of really bad behavior under Michael Proctor's watch.
So he gets booted after kind of a tyranny of shame, frankly,
lots of embarrassing things inappropriate text. It seemed as though
maybe Karen Reid had been targeted and was being essentially
framed for this murder, and Michael Proctor gets booted. Now,

(01:25:23):
Michael Proctor, any case that he worked on prior is
basically up for conversation because he's behaved like a dirty cop,
which nobody likes, including the cops. That's a bad thing.
So anything from Karen Reid bror is like up for
a discussion, which is really scary because in cases maybe

(01:25:45):
like this one allegedly that this guy offs his wife
and is looking to get away with it allegedly, he
can point to Michael Proctor and be like, oh, yeah, right,
it's that dirty cop again. At it pushing me into
a corner. I should be relinquished of all issues. That's
how important law enforcement is at every stage of the game. Quentin,

(01:26:10):
you're giving me a look. You seem like you want
to throw in something right now.

Speaker 6 (01:26:14):
I have just I have been trying to my mind
has been elsewhere. A little bit about the murder in Greenwich, Connecticut.
You're talking about Andrew Kissel.

Speaker 2 (01:26:26):
No, no, no real estate devent. Jennifer is oh, Jennifer Dulos.
Jennifer Dulos. May she rest in peace. Jennifer Dulos. Let's
hear about Jennifer Dulos. Not to distract, but yes, Jennifer
Dulos is such a tragic case.

Speaker 5 (01:26:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:26:44):
She was a mother of five. She disappeared in New Canaan, Connecticut.
This is in May of twenty nineteen. And her strange husband,
Fotus Dulas, that's what yep, was the main suspect after
he was seen on surveillance foot disposing of evidence in
trash bags and rolled up heart for carpet in Hartford, Connecticut.

(01:27:06):
These similarities are insane. Wow to the case we're talking about.

Speaker 2 (01:27:11):
Yeah, so that case in Connecticut, we covered it a
bit with Nancy Grayce back in the day. This guy
was having an affair, he had fallen in love elsewhere.
He had five kids with Jennifer. Yea at beautiful house,
fancy life, all the things. She's the dream. If you
look at a photograph of her. She's like the most
perfect beautiful Hetorage scene and devoted mother, all the things

(01:27:34):
she comes home, gets into her garage. This guy is
waiting in wait, like he's waiting to murder her. Yeah,
and then attacks her, murders her, and then I think
rolls her up in something, maybe the rug for the
living room. Similarly, I may be wrong about that, but
he rolls her up and then dismembers her, puts her

(01:27:55):
in garbage bags. And then he's seen by the way
with the girlfriend in the car, driving throughout, gallivanting through
all of Connecticut far far and wide, disposing of her
body in different trash cans and bags.

Speaker 3 (01:28:07):
Very similar, and he like killed.

Speaker 6 (01:28:09):
So similar and heart for Connecticut. I can tell you
that's about a seventy five to ninety minute drive because
I yeah, you drive.

Speaker 2 (01:28:15):
A lot with had dead body, dismembered bodies in various
bags in the backseat.

Speaker 3 (01:28:20):
It's crazy white.

Speaker 6 (01:28:22):
So the murderer fotus he died by suicide before the trial.

Speaker 3 (01:28:28):
But the girlfriend, Michelle.

Speaker 6 (01:28:31):
Traconis she was convicted of being a co conspirator and
got fourteen and a half years.

Speaker 2 (01:28:38):
Yeah, well deserved. She was in the car if I'm
not mistaken, while these body parts were being disposed of
and she maybe knew about it, and blah blah, like
not great, not great, correct me if I'm wrong, if
she was not in the car. This is my memory
serving me. This whole case is great memory served. Remember
five young, beautiful children, New Canaan, Connecticut, very affluent, beautiful

(01:29:01):
place in the world's terrible and this guy, good looking family,
they have the whole world ahead of them, They're living
the best lives. He wants to cheat on her, and
this is the decision.

Speaker 3 (01:29:10):
So his motive was the he wanted to be with
this girl. Yeah, he wants to be.

Speaker 2 (01:29:14):
With the girl. And by the way, Jennifer's sister was
not having it in the family. Her family was like, uhh,
you're not playing and they went hard on justice and
it worked. He ultimately took his life and then yeah,
of course the girlfriend took the head, but she had
a come in fourteen years she deserved fifty.

Speaker 4 (01:29:31):
Well, I think that they're alluding to the fact that
they think so the defense doesn't want the text messages
with this guy that Anna was texting to be admitted
in court, and the defense is like, no, we don't
want these text messages and the judges like, well why

(01:29:51):
and they're like, well, doesn't prove she had an affair.
And I think they're trying to say, or the state
is going to say, the motive for bri In is that,
you know, he he had this big art fraud thing happening.
He was he was right, okay, And I think they're
trying to say the motive for Brian was to get

(01:30:12):
rid of Anna, his wife and the mother of his children,
so that when he was going for sentencing for this
art fraud, the judge would have leniency on him and say, well,
he's the only caregiver for the kids and not right,
right and not. You know, this a fair motive type situation.

Speaker 3 (01:30:34):
So so she.

Speaker 2 (01:30:35):
Wanted out right, so she wants out of the relationship.
Maybe maybe can you imagine why she's married to a
guy that's going to kill her.

Speaker 4 (01:30:45):
For Brian to serve his time and choose life is
the quote that a friend used. She wanted him to
service time so they could move forward with her life.
Whether or not she was going to leave.

Speaker 2 (01:30:54):
Him or not, I don't know, but yeah, because he
was being brought up on charges because he was he
was like faking like banks Andy war real paintings really,
so he was like a cron artist, right, So he
was under the arrest because of this art fraud strain
that he pled guilty to at the time of her disappearance.

Speaker 3 (01:31:15):
Right, Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:31:17):
So the so it's it's kind of a wild case.
So yeah, the jury selection starts tomorrow. Trial should begin
December first, and we're definitely I'm definitely going to be falling,
like I watched it this morning.

Speaker 2 (01:31:29):
So no, we were all, this is okase, that's very
close to your heart that you're going to be filling
us and every day for sure, every day, every day. No,
the first thing this morning, body had been following in time.

Speaker 3 (01:31:40):
So yeah, we like at the bit. By the way,
I had my own court case.

Speaker 4 (01:31:47):
Today, my traffic ticket, my criminal status, d I'm clean yourself.

Speaker 2 (01:31:55):
Did you get up there and say I deject You're
like I said object.

Speaker 3 (01:31:59):
Judge said why did you let your registration lapse?

Speaker 4 (01:32:02):
And I was like I did and he was like okay,
and he's like, he said, are you guilty? Said I'm
very guilty, and he's a girl account. He said, okay,
here's your discount. Because you know I was guilty registration.

Speaker 3 (01:32:15):
I owned it. He paid one hundred dollars. I'm not
a criminal anymore. On the right side.

Speaker 2 (01:32:22):
We loved you either way, Buttrofile that was a little
word and Adam were concerned.

Speaker 4 (01:32:31):
I was like, what's going to happen if they held
me off to jail like my dogs? So how are
the how's the team gonna know?

Speaker 2 (01:32:38):
We're gonna look, we have to Courtney here, she's the
bank heister.

Speaker 3 (01:32:45):
She'll get you clear.

Speaker 6 (01:32:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:32:49):
I was there at seven o'clock this morning, my little love.

Speaker 2 (01:32:55):
Well, listen, guys, big day tomorrow, a confusing day tomorrow,
an interesting day to tomorrow, an important day tomorrow. So
let's all pay attention. We want to hear your talkbacks,
so appropriate talkback Tuesday. Anything you want to share, we
want to hear. We love you, be safe, true crime tonight.
We will talk to you tomorrow.

Speaker 3 (01:33:13):
Bye.