Three Executions, a Jailhouse Death, and the Science Behind Bruises

Three executions carried out in three very different ways — including a last-second commutation in Oklahoma, a rare firing squad in South Carolina, and a record-setting year in Florida. We also break down the horrifying jail-cell death of Tony Mitchell with forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan, who explains what really happened inside his cell. Tune in for all the details.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker and I'm here
with my two favorite ladies on this beautiful Sunday night.
Body move in, Courtney Armstrong. I hope you has a
wonderful weekend. Absolutely, I partey had a little bit of rain.

Speaker 3 (00:38):
Yeah that's of rain for you, but it was absolutely wonderful.
Living in southern California, rain is not frequent, and this
was the actual first weekend since August where there wasn't
things to do both Saturday and Sunday.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
So it was a weekend at home and it was fabulous.

Speaker 4 (00:58):
I love it.

Speaker 2 (00:59):
I like that.

Speaker 3 (00:59):
Yeah, cabinets are organized, bills are paid.

Speaker 2 (01:02):
I'm ready to go. Let's got Christmas tree up? Yay.
I know I suddenly crossed over to that person. I
know it. That's the annoying person who's bringing in the
holidays way too soon. But you know what I'm calling
it this year, it's time let's bring on the cheer, cheer,
cheer times. You know, I'm bringing in holiday festivities no

(01:23):
matter what. And yeah, Boddy, you had a good weekend.

Speaker 4 (01:26):
I did it rained heres all weekend as well. All
weekend it was rainy, rainy, rainy, and I put together
some furniture. I got a new bookshelf. I yeah, I
was doing I was doing a lot of housework stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:39):
These little nesters, both of you, little busy bees doing
all this, you know, these home improvements about you. I
was gallivanting the entire weekend. And yes, and it was
beautiful weather in Nashville, and I feel like I've been
fancying and free just bringing in some holiday cheer, come
hell or high water. I normally hate that person and
find it you're super annoying for the holidays to begin

(02:01):
a second before Thanksgiving, like not even a second even
that's a little bit rushing it. I love it. I
love Christmas is my favorite. Bring it on, bring it on. Yeah,
So here we are and listen. It's Sunday, November sixteenth,
and we have a stack Night of Forensics. Because it
is scientific Sunday, everybody. We have Joseph Scott Morgan, our

(02:22):
most favorite forensics expert and host of the true crime
podcast Body Bags with us to unpack a lot of
different things. We're going to be doing a deep dive
into sort of prisons executions. There's been quite a few
of them up for discussion in the last few days alone.
Not so many executions, but the discussion of rather and listen,

(02:44):
we are not living under a rock. Obviously, It's been
a very big news weekend surrounding all things Epstein. It
feels like this is not the night to really do
the deep dive. So tomorrow and likely a lot of
this week will be heavy on the Epstein front. So
we are of course tracking that very closely, and we'll

(03:06):
have so much to talk about tomorrow. But we felt
as though Sundays should remain a little forensically sacred. What
do you think, raise your hand if you absolutely, absolutely
is right. And also there have been some other new
developments too. That Las Vegas pornstar who beheaded her ex
she's been found guilty, so we're going to dig into

(03:28):
the forensics of that. Also an inmate. This is a
story very close to Joseph Scott Morgan's heart ours as well,
who died of hypothermia behind bars. We're going to dig
into some of the forensics to that so complicated night,
important night, busy night. We are so glad that you
are here and hope that you too had a beautiful weekend.

(03:51):
And if you are dreading Monday, no no, no, no,
do not, because it's going to be an excellent week
ahead and we're so happy to get to spend this
evening with you prior so, if you want to jump
in and join the convo eight eight eight three one
crime or leave us a talk back. You guys have
been doing great with those. We'll play some of them tonight,

(04:12):
or you can always hit us up on our socials
at True Crime Tonight's show on Instagram or TikTok or
at True Crime Tonight on Facebook. Ladies, Courtney, where should
we begin? We will put all of the merry aside
and buckle up for some real talk about all things executions.

Speaker 3 (04:34):
Yeah, there's a lot of important stuff going on. In
the last week alone, there were three scheduled executions and
they all came to really distinct ends that highlight sort
of national trends regarding capital punishment. It's a lot of
information and here we go, so in Oklahoma, Tremaine Wood

(04:54):
was spared execution. This was just minutes before his lethal injection,
and that happened because the sentence was commuted from death
to life without parole, so we have a commutation. And
then in South Carolina Stephen Bryant, who was convicted of
a triple murder back in two thousand and four on
a killing spree, he was executed by a pretty rare

(05:18):
firing squad. And thirdly, Florida executed Brian Frederick Jennings by
lethal injection. And that marks the state's sixteenth execution in
this year alone.

Speaker 2 (05:30):
Which is a pretty big uptick, right, that's you know,
probably a very large number compared to the previous years.

Speaker 3 (05:37):
Yeah, So here's some of the trends which was very interesting,
and the research on this was great.

Speaker 2 (05:42):
Produce ev everybody else.

Speaker 3 (05:45):
So twenty twenty five, it marks the highest use of
capital punishment in the United States over a decade. So
you are totally correct, Stephanie. Forty three people have been
executed since January. But across the country, states are moving
in really radically different directions on the penalty. There's been
over one hundred bills introduced this year alone. Some are

(06:06):
looking to expand the scope, right, and they want to
expand it to crimes like killing police officers, to sexual
offenses against children and offenses by undocumented immigrants. Other states, however,
are attempting to abolish or suspend executions. So it's really
running the gamut.

Speaker 4 (06:25):
I mean, it's such an expensive thing to do. I mean,
imagine how expensive it is to put on a death
penalty trial, and again you have to pay for appeal
after appeal after appeal, and now you want to expand it.
That is going to be incredibly costly. I cannot imagine
that it's going to happen.

Speaker 3 (06:41):
Yeah, and those appeals typically do go for literal decades
and decades.

Speaker 2 (06:46):
I think the argument probably prior to working in true
crime as closely as we now do, I think back
in the day, I always thought, well, you know, and
again this is not my personal opinion, but you would
think finances came into play. You have to house somebody
for life that's committed atrocious crimes that they've confessed to
you know, is it just less expensive, more humane to

(07:09):
just put an end to it and move on. And
in reality, it's much more expensive to actually put somebody
to death. The numbers are really pretty glaringly different where
it's it's far more expensive to your point A, because
of the special circumstances required legally to have a death sentenced,
you know, trial, and then additionally, just the act of

(07:31):
executing somebody has also become very controversial, even the three
that you just listed, one of them being by firing squad. Obviously,
this was brought up in the Brian Coburger case. Had
he been put to death, firing squad was kind of
the first option on his particular list in Idaho. Obviously,
he pled guilty to the murder of four college students

(07:53):
and that never came to play. We thought that was
very barbaric, and it seems like what are we talking about?
This is like from the teen oh one and in reality,
And we'll talk to Joseph Scott Morgan later about this.
That's considered one of the more humane versions of execution
by many, including Joseph himself. Not to put words in
his mouth for reasons he can explain. So I don't

(08:16):
know how I feel about it. I will say, until
a family member is taken an a vicious way, it's
like that's when your vote really starts to kick in, right.
I don't know. I've never been in that scenario, but
I definitely have covered enough cases to know that innocent
people have been put on death row and execute you.

Speaker 5 (08:35):
Know, JEF, I was just going to chime in really
quick because I'm one of those people that was always
a bit confused with the cost. I always assumed it
would have been cheaper to execute someone, but I had
to kind of before this. I started looking at up
myself because it never made sense and everyone has always
said it, but some states have documented that a single
death penalty case can cost between three and five million dollars,

(08:58):
while life without parole may cost one to two million
dollars over an entire lifetime. And then I had to
break it down so I could fully understand, because I
really didn't get why it was so much more expensive,
but things like longer, more complex trials when it's a
death penalty, which all these Again, you guys probably already
knew all of this, but some of this was new
to me, and maybe some of our listeners may not

(09:19):
be aware. But often mandatory appeals often take decades, which
is also an added expend and I didn't realize this,
but you need specialized lawyers on both sides, which also
can make the cost much higher. And additionally, extra security
and housing on death row. So those things in conjunction
with you know, higher costs for expert testimony and investigations

(09:43):
all make it a much more costly expense.

Speaker 6 (09:46):
So for me, that was a light bulb.

Speaker 5 (09:48):
That I didn't you know, I've always heard it, but
it never really broke it down.

Speaker 2 (09:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (09:52):
Same, And you know when we talk about you know,
the lawyers, you remember and was like one of the
only lawyers in Northern Idea in Idaho at the time
that could be Brian Coberger's lawyer because she was the
only death penalty qualified attorney available.

Speaker 2 (10:08):
And think about it, the stakes for that are extremely hard.
So and just you know, to break it down in
Layman's term, we'll use Brian Coberger's example, just since we
all know that case at the Idaho student murders. Yes,
and Taylor, the defense attorney has special provisions. She's a
death sentence attorney. That's a rare provision to have. So

(10:29):
you know, those lawyers are very hard to find. They're
also extremely expensive and by the way, for a good reason.
They are spooning through life and death scenarios, and listen,
if you don't have the right lawyer and you find
yourself on death row, it's possible you might see death
because no one's really gone through your case very carefully.

(10:50):
Those are the two sides to it, right, I'm not
saying either or Frankly, I think we've seen both. I mean, Cortney,
not to put words in your mouth, but we've covered
multiple cases that we've felt very strongly that the person
that was looking at death row was in fact innocent.

Speaker 3 (11:06):
Yeah, you can, absolutely, and there's facts to back it up.
If you want to join in the conversation on all
these changes that are happening with death sentence penalties, give
us a call. We're at eighty eight three one crime,
so you know a couple of risks or factors. Black
inmates are way more likely to experience botched executions. Over

(11:29):
two hundred prisoners have been exonerated from death row since
the seventies. It's a lot of people who, you know,
a mistake of death could have been made. And this
one's staggering. For every eight point two people who have
been executed in the era, you know, today's modern era,
one person has been exonerated, so one in eight.

Speaker 2 (11:54):
That actually indeed so they they've done.

Speaker 4 (11:56):
Sixteen in Florida this year already, so true of those
people may have statistically, statistically speaking, may have been innocent.

Speaker 2 (12:07):
And by the way, you don't have the representation. So
if you look at the math, I mean, listen, it
is wildly disproportionate in terms of white versus people of
color who are experiencing these issues on death row. I
mean that's a fact. Let alone you find yourself there.
God forbid, you don't have resources or money to pay
for the greatest lawyer of all time. Like we said,

(12:29):
having a proper death sentence lawyer is very, very expensive.
Imagine you're accused of a crime you didn't commit and
you're getting railroaded and you can afford a good lawyer.
Guess what, you don't get to play again. I don't
want to say specific names because I know these are
things that are happening in real time. Courtney and I
worked on a case a while back. It was devastating,

(12:51):
and it was so hard to be in the behive
of it, and you really saw things differently from the
inside versus the outside. And at the time it's the
Rodney reed case. I can say that we were working
on this. He is a black man who was sentenced
to death and by the way he was and we
thought he was innocent of the crimes he was being

(13:12):
accused of and still do. Maybe not the perfect person
by the way, so that became layered and complicated. But
for the crime that he was being accused of, there
was actual DNA that wasn't being tested by the then judge,
and Kim Kardashian tweeded about it right before his execution
was supposed to happen, and guess what, he got a
stay of execution. It pushed his death date. He remains

(13:35):
alive to this day because of Kim Kardashian's tweet. Yep,
wow and by the way, say what you want. That
was a beautiful thing because we were actually working on
that case real time and cried and we're so grateful
that his life was spared until there was more information
gathered and he had the opportunity to defend himself properly.
But it shouldn't require Kim Kardashian to tweet for justice

(13:59):
to happen. That in and of itself, by the way,
she did the right thing and It was a beautiful thing.
But like that's you shouldn't require a documentary or celebrity
to make noise for the justice system to work in
your favor. And oftentimes it's whoever has the most cash
who can pay for a lawyer wins. Right, Most people
with money don't end up on death row. That's right.

Speaker 3 (14:20):
We are racing to the break, but I wanted to
get two more things out that kind of rocked my world.
Some states that are broadening eligibility are including abortion related
offenses that had not previously been on the table. Other
states who are restricting it include Georgia, who are now
prohibiting executions for those with intellectual disabilities.

Speaker 4 (14:41):
Wow. Wow, When we come back, Joseph Scott Morgan is
going to join us and he's going to break down
what really happened inside of freezing Alabama jail cell where
an inmate diet. Keep it right here, True Printment.

Speaker 2 (15:01):
Welcome back to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. Happy Sunday, everybody. We hope
you had a beautiful weekend. It's Scientific Sunday and we
are so happy to have Joseph Scartt Morgan our very
favorite forensics expert and host of the hit podcast Body
Bags backed with us as always on Sundays, I'm Stephanie

(15:24):
Lai Decker here with Courtney Armstrong, Body move In. Sam
and Adam and Taha are here as well. We are
all thinking science and forensics. Listen. It has been a
heavy weekend, so there's plenty of breaking news to get
to tomorrow. But in this exact moment, we are breaking
down forensics, which I think is like slightly comforting, although

(15:47):
this first case, Joseph, that I know is so close
to your heart, is frankly the opposite of comforting, maybe
the saddest thing I've ever heard. So Courtney, why don't
you set the table for us a little bit?

Speaker 3 (16:00):
Yeah, Stephanie doesn't exaggerate. This is incredibly sad and incredibly important.
We felt it was very important to cover, and Joseph
really championed it, just to know that this kind of
stuff goes on, because it hasn't been getting much attention.
So a man named Tony Mitchell, he was mentally ill.
He was arrested. This was during a welfare check back

(16:21):
in January of twenty twenty three. He then was brought
to jail, was held for two weeks in an extremely cold,
extremely unsanitary concrete cell.

Speaker 2 (16:32):
And this was in an Alabama jail.

Speaker 3 (16:35):
While he was there for those two weeks, officers of
medical staff they repeatedly denied the very most basic of care.
Tony Mitchell died of hypothermia and sepsis, and this was
after woefully belatedly he was finally transported to a hospital.
It has prompted a massive federal investigation into abuse and

(16:58):
corruption within the jail, and as of the most recent updates,
twenty five people, including corrections officers, deputies, and medical staff,
they have been indicted or have pleaded guilty in connection
with Mitchell's death and related civil rights violations. It was
in my estimation this man was portrayed to death. But Joseph,

(17:18):
we're going to let you go ahead and speak a
little more about the details.

Speaker 7 (17:22):
Yeah, yeah, you know, you know, guys, Hey, it's great
to be welcome justice. Yeah, well, thank you. Love being
with my friends here. Yeah, this case, really, you know,
just broke my heart. It's in my home state and
we've been hearing about it around here, you know, ever

(17:43):
since this went down, and it was just absolutely I
don't know, it was a real punch and a gut
because you don't think that that your neighbors could treat
anybody this way. And it's in a rural county that's
on the other side, on the west side of Birmingham,
so headed out. If you've ever driven down I twenty

(18:05):
go through Birmingham, you're headed westbound, you're going to pass
adjacent to it. So the Chudwin was in mental health crisis.
Tony was and his family had summoned the local police
to the house for a mental health check because he
was just he had become unhinged. And I still don't
have the full story as to whether or not he

(18:27):
was either non medicated or undermedicated or whatever the case
might have been. At any rate, he had taken black
paint put it all over his body, and when the
police arrived, he was actually saying that he was seeing
portals to Hell. And this is in the backyard, so
off he flees. You know, they're trying to stop him,

(18:48):
and he has a weapon, fires it at them, doesn't
strike anybody, and they subdue him and it's at this
point in time that they take him to the county jail,
and that's where the true horror begins and it was
the beginning of the end of Tony's life. And I
don't know, I've cover a lot of cases, guys, And

(19:11):
you know, even back the same year, actually we had
another case over in Atlanta where a guy was eaten
a live by bed bucks and in a jail cell. Yeah,
at the Rice Street jail where I've worked Deak before.
So this sort of thing does go on Tony's case
in particular, is it really tugs at your heartstrings because

(19:33):
you've got a guy that's really helpless and hopeless. The
cell that they put him in give you, guys, a
real insight into this. The staff called the cell get
ready for this freezer. Well they called it that because
there was a natural hold that existed in this environment
even during the summertime. No table, no chairs, no bed.

(19:57):
He's on bear concrete and there's a drain in the
center of the floor and there's no toilet, there's no sink.
So just imagine being in that environment and you're in
this crisis where you think you're being chased by demons.
It's one of the most cruel things I've heard of.

Speaker 4 (20:13):
And you said he was covered in black paint when
he was arrested and they didn't take him at the hospital.

Speaker 2 (20:20):
Isn't that I mean?

Speaker 7 (20:20):
I think, no, no, no, hey, listen, no, sorry, step on you.
I got to tell you that was my first reaction. Jesus,
Let's get this guy, you know, at least get him
calm down, you know, you know, a bulus of adavan
or something. Get him calm down, you know, take down
the tone here, do what you got to do. Find
out what his mental health history is and is he
currently on medication. And you never know what's going on

(20:43):
with somebody. He may have mingled alcohol with his drugs,
he might be taking these drugs, might be non compliant,
or some psychiatrists may have prescribed him something that he's
got fifteen different substances in his system, and that turns
out to be you know, a horrible cocktail as well.
And you never know when somebody's going to go off,
particularly if they're very fragile. Wow.

Speaker 4 (21:03):
So they didn't recognize that this talk about demons and
portals and whatnot was a mental health situation, and they
classified him as combative to justify withholding treatment.

Speaker 2 (21:17):
I just looked it up.

Speaker 4 (21:18):
That's very very sad. You phrased that more.

Speaker 2 (21:25):
Than I say it.

Speaker 3 (21:25):
Yeah, I'm trying to be I do not believe they
were confused. Tony Mitchell, upon arrival, was completely disoriented. He
was unable to walk. So how combative are you going
to be? He was unable to walk, and as Joseph said,
speaking about demons and portals, he was a terrified man.

(21:49):
And there's more details, but over the next two weeks
he was left naked, wet and covered in feces. This
is all on a concrete floor. He had no we
had very little access to food, water, sanitation, or of
course mental health care. So I don't think they were confused.

Speaker 7 (22:09):
Let me let me throw one more nugget in here.
If you don't mind, that will really chill your blood.
It has been said that the staff would taunt him
and say, that's what you get for shooting at a
cop let that sink in just for a second, and
how horrible that is. And I don't even know, you know,

(22:29):
in the mental state that he was in, I don't
even know if that wretched with him, But I think
it says more about their mental state. You know that
you could you could disengage from a fellow human being
do this to them. See some guy living in a
squalid environment while you're by the way, your clothes, you
have access to three hot meals and you know you're

(22:51):
sitting in a you know, they were in a jail.
They got a cushioned seat to sit in. Oh and
by the way, they get to go home at night
or when the shift is done. I know a lot
of really good correctional people. But it's a sacred duty, man.
I mean, when someone is arrested, they are and this
is I know lawyers will argue with me for saying this,
but I view them. I view inmates many times as

(23:14):
the facto awards of the state. The state is saying,
by arresting you, you're in into a contract with them.
By arresting you, we're going to provide for your basic
welfare you know Maslov's hierarchy coverage or feed you, will
clothe you, will keep you warm, Okay, just as basic
needs you know that we talk about. But you know,
because of this exposure, it led to this progression, and

(23:37):
it fascinating. We always talk about homicides, and people think
about homicides in the sense of, well, a pistol was
involved or a rifle was involved, or a knife or
a stick or whatever the case might be. This is
a case of them taking an environmental condition and weaponizing

(23:57):
it and using it as a weapon. This is say it.
I'm not ashamed. No, you're right, this is a murder man. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (24:04):
Well they've been indicted, right, they've been But if they've
been indicted for I.

Speaker 7 (24:07):
Mean, well, cruelty. I think one of the charges is death.
You know, the way we define homicide, it's very simply
put death at the hand of another. That's the clinical
way to divide homicide. And in my world, we don't
use the term murder. That's a lawyer's word. We say

(24:28):
homicide because it breaks it down into a clinical element.

Speaker 4 (24:31):
Right, This is True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we're
talking true crime all the time. I'm body Moving and
I'm here with Courtney Armstrong and Stephanie Leidecker and we
are joined by Joseph Scott Morgan, and we are talking
about the really tragic, let's say, murder of Tony Mitchell,
who was a mentally ill man arrested during a welfare
check in Alabama and they put him in this quote

(24:51):
unquote freezer of a cell and basically viewed him as
a non human. I would think at this point, you know,
you can't could somebody suffering like that and walk away
unless you view them as non human?

Speaker 7 (25:03):
In my opinion, No, in his chest is still rising
and falling, Okay, I mean, he's in the land of
the living, and I'm just thinking, what kind of constitution
does guy have, you know, to be able to live
this long under these conditions. There's actually a great CCTV
photo that's floating around out there of two deputies and
it's so rife with irony. He's laying on a floor

(25:24):
in their office and they've got padded chairs that they
sit in. They're fully clothed, and this guy has his
hands over his genitals like this. He's completely nude, he's
got wild hair. He's laid on the floor and you
can't you know, it looks like he's probably deceased at
this point. There was actually one nurse that said, y'all

(25:45):
have got to the hospital, and even when that call
went out, they still delayed another three hours before the
jail facilitated him getting there, and then when he rolled
in the emergency room, his core body temperature was seventy six.

Speaker 4 (26:04):
Oh my god. Wow.

Speaker 7 (26:05):
Yeah, and there's no way you can You're beyond you know,
once you get down like I've had several hypothermia cases
with the homeless, particularly in Atlanta, not so much in
New Orleans. But you know, once you get south of
like eighty six, essentially you're in danger zone here. And
this guy had been living like this. And my impression

(26:28):
is because there's a drain in the center of the floor,
they're kind of hosing him down like an animal. As
a matter of fact, you know, Kimmy and I are
renowned for, you know, rescuing dogs. That's one of the
things that we do. We'd love to rescue, particularly from
kill shelters and guys I go to kill shelters where
the animals are treated better than you know, And so

(26:51):
that's one of the reasons that really it really struck
a chord with me because you know, just look, people
do things to get put in jailer stand that, all right,
I don't like it when people fire at police officers. No,
that's it's some reasonable you shouldn't do that. However, again,
going back to this, who made you judge and jury?

(27:12):
You know, and you know it's it's just and it
has wrecked this community for years. And let me ask
you something. If you lived there, would you want to
call nine one one if you're you know, brother was
in distress. I wouldn't. I wouldn't sober handle it. However,
I can handle it.

Speaker 3 (27:30):
You know, body you earlier had asked about some of
the specifics on the indictments, so there are different because
again there's twenty five people up but six employees, including
the jail captain and supervisor. They were charged with numerous
federal deprivation of rights and conspiracy. And the allegation is

(27:52):
that the officers unlawfully punished detainees in the jail for
the detainees perceived misbehavehavior and at least one please states
that at the time of Tony Mitchell's death, officers intentionally
kept the conditions in the jail as filthy as possible.
That's a quote, and that's to convince the counting commissioners

(28:13):
to increase salaries and jail bres.

Speaker 2 (28:16):
It's jail budget. Let's not think in I mean really
hear that. I mean staggering. That's that's pretty staggering. It's,
by the way, it's not even that common. Yeah, I
was just going to.

Speaker 4 (28:28):
Say, it's really concerning that there were so many people involved.
It means that the whole system was involved in this.
Right at this particular jail in Alabama that we're talking about,
the entire staff was in on it. This is the
culture of this jail. Where else does this culture exist?
How many other jails does this culture exist? Like, you
guys know how I feel about this. We live in

(28:50):
a civilized society. And if we say that we're going
to put you in a cell and you know, take
care of you, we need to take care of you.
That's just my opinion.

Speaker 2 (28:58):
And by the way, I have always kind of gone
of you know, this is behind the scenes body, and
I talk about this regularly where I'm like, well, yeah,
I don't know if my immediate family was murdered by
somebody and they and again like I am a pacifist,
I am like make love that war kind of cat.
But if that were to happen in my life, god forbid,

(29:20):
I don't know. My vote might be different. If somebody
confess to harming my child or my loved one. You know,
who knows. So I really do see all sides of this,
But the truth of the matter is, that's not the decision.
The decision is we live in a civilized society and
this is how we're supposed to handle things appropriately. And frankly,

(29:41):
I really have learned that through you body. It's really
easy to say like, oh, you know and let them
you know, let them die behind bars and you know,
let them be executed, until you really go a deeper
level through that, and you're like, well that doesn't totally
make sense either. What's the solve, I guess is the
larger question.

Speaker 4 (30:02):
I don't know what to solve a business. But we
do know though from the reports here, that the entire
jail was basically in on this, and when people brought
it to people's attentions, like hey, we need to take
this out of the hospital, they were shot down.

Speaker 7 (30:15):
I got to tell you, you know, one of the
disturbing things is if you've got a group of people,
Let's say you got top of twenty five people, Okay,
some of you are going to be appt in the
soul hit a home run. Here, you got twenty five
of you that can't attend to a person. I will,
what spiritual state are you in? I have no idea.

Speaker 2 (30:33):
First of all, before we go any further, Joseph, we
have to think of like a jingle or some sort
of I don't know what is this. What is the
sound of a smoke machine? You know, something like when
you come on, it's like we know it and like
it's the King of Forensics. Because Crime Lab you get

(30:55):
the rights to that. Can we please?

Speaker 4 (30:57):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (30:57):
Can we please? When we were logging on earlier, they
were like, who's playing music? And I was like, and
they're like, it's Stephanie. I'm like, I'm telling you, I'm
not playing music. Like it's meat loaf, it's Stephanie. Turns
out it was Joseph. It was not me. I'm like,
I think the meat loaf alone eliminated me. Although we
don't know it was meatff.

Speaker 4 (31:15):
It sounded like it sounded like I can do anything from.

Speaker 2 (31:26):
You were listening to Paradise at the dashboard light. Okay, fine,
So like I think when we're concocting some sort of
theme for you, it should have those undertones the grateful Dead.
There you go. So we're entering Crime Lad. Cue the
music and Joseph. You know, we talk a lot about bruising,

(31:49):
and obviously bruises are a really big tell when it
comes to forensics. They tell a story, right, there's timeline involved,
there's how close to the victim and the assailant maybe
were cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And sometimes words and
lingo gets thrown around very casually. And you know, Joseph,
we have the benefit of working with him on the
daily so he can correct us along the way. But

(32:11):
we thought this would be a great time to pull
out our pencils and pens and have a proper crime
lab to understand the basics of bruising and what that
means in forensics, because a lot of the cases that
we're covering right now, I mean, obviously Ellen Greenberg, we
talk about this so much. What's the other one top
of head that's like so brew Oh well, even David

(32:31):
the pop star where you know Epstein even yeah, when
are we going to find justice for Celeste Revis? So anyway,
I digress, but bruising is a big deal and nobody
better to unpack it than Joseph himself.

Speaker 7 (32:47):
Well thanks for having me, guys. Yeah, So with bruising
and we hear that term, you hear it, you know
kind of you get a grocery store and somebody will say, hey,
that piece of fruit is bruise, right, so they don't
say contoosed. Are these hematoma? But all three of those
terms essentially mean the same thing I used to work with.
It's really old forensic pathologist. He's real folksy had been

(33:11):
a general practition before he ever went into forensics, and
he used to refer to them as hematomatoes. So it's
kind of a dad joke thing. And the more, yes,
we do have humor, uh so for big Yeah, you
got to keep it light man. So but you know,
to harken back to doctor Parker, God rest his soul,

(33:32):
you know he knew and he taught me how to
essentially grade uh, contusions if you will. So if you
think about kind of we have to think about how
one occurs. Contusions occur as a result of some type
of impact. Now, either the person their body can be

(33:53):
in motion. Okay, say if you're understrained in a car
and you fly forward and he strike to dash or
strike the back, see wherever it is. If you fall
down a hill, you know you'll get abrasions as well,
but you're going to get contusions, you know, kind of
bouncing off gravity pulling you downward. And then you can
have events where an object flies through the air and

(34:14):
it strikes your person. Now a lot of people have
experienced this. I've got this beautiful photograph that I use
in my medical legal death investigation class. And person's not dead.
But it's a college college softball pitcher. This young lady
got struck by a hotline, the most dangerous position on

(34:35):
the field. I would never pitch in softball. And she
gets stung on the thigh with this thing. And so
the image is they actually have the ball, and the
physician took a picture of the contusion adjacent to it.
You can even make out the laces you know, on
her skin. But the thing about it is the diameter
of the contusion is generally larger than the object. So

(34:59):
I'll get give you a good example if you want
to know how the skin reacts to impact. If you've
ever ever seen the old clip, and I urge anybody
you go see it on YouTube of the guy like
on the Jersey boardwalk back in the thirties and he
catches the cannon ball. Have you gouty seen this?

Speaker 2 (35:17):
Oh?

Speaker 7 (35:17):
Yes, slow motion he's got the big elastic band. Go
watch that it's in super low slow mode and the
cannonball you can see it exit the muzzle it strikes him. Now,
pay very close attention when the ball actually strikes his
chest or strikes his abdomen, nice chest, his abdomen, you
can see his his stomach and the tissue around it

(35:40):
enveloped the ball for a second and then it snaps back.
Skin's got a lot of elasticity, so as you can imagine,
you've got more of a surface area that will be
contoosed and it won't necessarily marry up with the object. Okay,
So and it depends on where where you where you
are can choosed. You know, the scalp. You think about

(36:01):
your skull, it's very firm.

Speaker 4 (36:02):
Yeah, it's not a lot of bounce back with that.

Speaker 7 (36:05):
Right your abdomen and your thighs. You know that's got
you know you've got so that you know, the tissue
kind of envelops it at that point in time. You
can also and that's where lacerations eventually come through them
because the friction as the impact, the skin will rip. Now,

(36:26):
one of the major ways we use contusions to grade
things or to try to understand time. Remember we talked
about post mortemnival, right, and so we try to and
we do this even with the living, particularly child abuse investigators.
If a child has multiple bruises all over their body,

(36:49):
some of those bruises will be in various stages of healing, okay.
And so the trick is if you're interviewing somebody and
they say, well, kid fell down the staircase, Well, how
many damn times did he fall down the staircase? Because
you've got multiple bruises or contusions in various stages. And
here's the word you need to remember, resolve. So when

(37:12):
that child or or victim, if we've got a homicide
is impacted by something, the little capillary beds underneath the skin, okay,
we'll actually rupture at that point in time and it forms,
it forms this kind of hemorrhage into this what's called
interstitial tissue, okay, and it kind of rests right there,
and you can get a really deep bruise that goes

(37:33):
down into the muscle, say like on the thigh, and
you'll get a concurrent hematoma there as well. So when
we grade it, if you think about it within the
first few hours when you have that strike, okay, it's
going to be kind of red. It'll be irritated looking.
But then within the next few hours, that red area

(37:58):
will then take on what or more commonly used to
and that's blue to black. Okay. Now that's you're going
to be, you know, like probably about two to three
hours after that. Now that bruise in that configuration will
remain that way for maybe about two to three days.

(38:18):
We get beyond that and we go to that kind
of disgusting green color that all of us have seen
struck and that's going to stay with you for maybe
just shy of a week. The next shade, okay, is
going to be that really disgusting yellow. Okay. So when
you get into that yellow range, you can be you

(38:39):
can look at the scene and a lot of it
depends on the person's physiology. It can go from one
to three weeks at that point in time, and then
you have resolved. So if you've got multiple layers or
multiple insults to the body, you can you know, you'll
see it demonstrated all over. If you have like a
domestic abuse case and finally the victim is finally killed,

(39:02):
you'll see you know, bruises all over the totality. Probably
the worst one I ever saw was a lady that
was that was killed by her boyfriend with a broken
dryer belt, and he had been beaten her for probably
about two or three years, and I counted close to
one hundred and sixty six linear contusions on her body

(39:22):
in various stages of a resolve. Oh my gosh, Yeah,
it told a horrible story, really good.

Speaker 4 (39:28):
Can I ask a question about bruising a lot of
the times in true crime we're talking about bruises found
on a body of a victim that's been is now deceased. Yeah,
and so your body when you when you pass, you're
no longer healing, right like you know, your your your
the bruises that you may have are basically going to
are they going to stay?

Speaker 7 (39:49):
The scene for asking that, Okay, now you live a
thousand years, Thank you for asking that. Yeah, yes, that's a.

Speaker 2 (39:56):
Gold star in the Do I get teachers, Yes, you
are for sure teacher's past.

Speaker 7 (40:01):
Okay. The thing about it is with that, with that,
you know, essentially metabolic activity is completely ceased. So even
those capitalary bits they don't have the ability to heal.
And also you do not have at a cellular level,
you don't have cellular respiration. You don't have this kind
of circulation that is going on through healing where your
body can diffuse that even further. So at that moment,

(40:26):
I've actually don ad stations on people that had multiple contusions.
You can still appreciate the degree to which they You know,
this is you.

Speaker 2 (40:37):
Sound a little modulated, Yeah, hould that thought? Well, just
we had to do a mid segment reset. Anyway. By
the way, you're listening to True Crime tonight, join us
eight eight eight three one crime. We're here with Joseph
Scott Morgan on Scientific Sunday, Deep inside the crime Lab,
talking about bruising and better understanding how to tell if

(41:01):
you know bruising can happen, Well, we know that it
can after death because the body stops metabolizing at that point.

Speaker 7 (41:09):
Yeah right, yeah, you're not going to have the result
resolve of the of the contusion. And so you know
once that person and you know, for us in forensics,
that's a real benefit. I mean that is a true.

Speaker 4 (41:22):
Yes, it's a snapshot in time.

Speaker 7 (41:24):
Right, yeah, and it was. That's the beauty of it.

Speaker 4 (41:29):
Now, let me let me ask you a question. Say
say that I somebody attacks me and they're punching me
in my chest and my stomach or whatever, and then
I passed like they stab me. The bruce hasn't been
God forbid, but the bruce hasn't performed yet. Right, Are
you able to tell that I was punched even though

(41:50):
the bruise hasn't had time to form.

Speaker 7 (41:53):
Well, A lot of it depends on resolve the amount
of force that was utilized, because you can have underlying damage,
little lacerations and underlying organs. But here's the thing with
that said, you're also and this is something we've never
talked about, I don't think on the show, is called
perry mortem state where you're in that kind of floating

(42:13):
area between life and death. You've got anti mortem before death,
post mortem after death, and then there's that pery mortem
phase and you can still get reaction cellular reaction okay, response,
trauma response from the cells, and you'll see evidence of it.
It just won't have quite the length of tom to develop, okay,

(42:35):
once death obviously sets in.

Speaker 2 (42:38):
And when it comes to say, you brought up the
example earlier with somebody who is maybe experiencing physical abuse
or domestic violence, which you know we see a lot
in many of the cases that we work on, and
I'm sure many people listening had their own personal experience
with this as well. That's a real specific thing. A
person can only fall down air quotes a ster case

(43:00):
so many times, right, And you know, if you're the
victim of abuse, you know Tier one is covering that up, right.
We If you're a woman, you can put makeup on
or you wear certain clothing to cover any repetitive bruising.
Are you able to tell forensicsly, forensically, very quickly if
a person is covering if somebody has been hit in

(43:23):
the face more than once, and you can tell it's
a black eye by impact versus a fall. Is that
something that behind the scenes forensics experts like yourself have
a certain eye for or is it just the narrative
being told from.

Speaker 7 (43:40):
The fostential data is very important? You know what's their history,
the domestic history. But there are certain cues you can
pick up on with trauma response in the body, if
they've been in a healing stage, for instance, and you can,
like when you actually do the autopsy. I won't go
into a lot of graphics here, but when you go
and do the autops you can see previously damaged tissue

(44:02):
in there that's in the progress of healing. You can
actually there's sometimes you can actually find an old scar
tissue that's beneath the skin. And I've actually seen that
happen as well. And here's an interesting little sidebar here.
People that are adept at abusing people and they know
what they do because a lot of these people will

(44:23):
abuse multiple people. They never go for the face, the head,
they never go for the arms, They go for the
abdomen in the back because they know the or the
thighs because they know the person's going to be closed
and so points to them for that. And the other
thing that we look for in abusers is also and
I know you guys have heard the forest doctor shopping
where they'll go to like some dock in a box

(44:46):
because yeah, my kid's arm is hanging and he won't
move it. Oh gee, come here, Jimmy, let's take a
look at it. Well, kid's got a fractured collar bone.
Well he didn't go to the other dock in a
box he had been to last month, you know where
the kids headache. Yeah, because they'll move around because you know,
you don't want to give away your your mouth fees

(45:08):
and at this point in time, you're evil as it was.

Speaker 2 (45:10):
Right And oftentimes somebody who's being victimized is trying to
run away, so you know the back, somebody's grabbing on
them to stay or throw them down.

Speaker 4 (45:20):
That seven years that becomes a real tell.

Speaker 3 (45:23):
Seven times before is the average before most people believe
a domestic violence.

Speaker 2 (45:28):
That's so sad.

Speaker 4 (45:29):
And these people that are doing these abuses know exactly
what to do to hide those things. So that's a
good thing to point out there.

Speaker 2 (45:35):
Joseph, thank you, and we thank you for all of
that information.

Speaker 7 (45:39):
As always everybody, I hope it helps somebody.

Speaker 3 (45:41):
I really absolutely, and listen, stick around this Scientific Sunday
because coming up we have the latest on the brutal
Vegas decapitation case and we'd love to hear from you.

Speaker 2 (45:52):
AED eight three one Crime. Welcome back to true Crime
tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true crime all the time. Listen.
If you've missed the first hour of the show, please
do nuts it for a second. You can catch us

(46:15):
right after. Also as a podcast, I'm Stephanie here with
Body and Courtney and the Gentleman in the studio, Taha,
Sam and Adam and of course Joseph Scott Morgan, host
of the hit podcast Body Bags, back with us for
Scientific Sunday breaking down all kinds of forensics. By the way, Joseph,
thank you for breaking down bruising in general, because it

(46:36):
is something that is so important for every case that
we cover, certainly from a forensics standpoint. And also just
to cap off to what we spoke about before the break,
if anybody out there is seeking help, please do raise
your hands. We will leave an eight hundred number or
where to call. By the end of the show. We

(46:56):
are searching real time for it now because bruising should
not happen in a healthy relationship period the end, speaking
of so body, you've been covering this sc story in
Las Vegas, very tragic former porn star has been found
guilty for beheading her ex and this is fresh off

(47:19):
the press, is and seems incredibly appropriate to discuss some
other forensics with this, and Joseph, so why don't you
set it up for us?

Speaker 4 (47:28):
Yeah, so I'll set the table, as Courtney would say. So,
the jury has convicted Nevada's Devin Michaels of murdering and
decapitating her ex husband Jonathan in August of twenty twenty three.
So Devin is she's a former adult film actress. She
killed her ex husband. They were divorced at his Henderson home,

(47:49):
which is like a suburb of Vegas. It's just on
the street. A miid disputes over custody and living arrangements
for their kids. The case drew national attention due to
the brutal nature the crime, the fact that neither the
missing murder weapon or the victim's head have yet they've
not been recovered yet, and you know the complex family dynamics,

(48:11):
including Devin. The lady who killed her husband married her
husband's son, her ex husband's son. What is this some
sort of convenience situation?

Speaker 2 (48:23):
Like, wait, she she was married to a man who
had a son.

Speaker 4 (48:27):
Let me her a timeline, Yeah, let me go. I'll
go through the timeline. It's very very simple. So in
twenty twelve, Devin Michaels, she's the convicted woman. She married
Jonathan Willette. He's the victim. Okay, they have two daughters together,
all right. In twenty eighteen they got divorced. So they
were married for six years. Okay, in twenty eighteen they

(48:47):
get a divorce, and she starts a relationship with her
ex husband's son, not her son, it's a previous son
from another relationship.

Speaker 2 (48:57):
And Jonathan came into the relationship.

Speaker 4 (48:59):
With right right, and the marriage has been described as
a marriage of convenience for insurance purposes. So somebody must
have needed insurance. Listen, I've considered it points in my life.
You know, somebody must have needed insurance or something. And
so they get married. They get married. Well, in twenty

(49:20):
twenty three, Jonathan the victim, he decides that he wants
to co parent with Devin, his ex right, so he
moves into her house to co parent their two daughters
that they've got. Sometime between August sixth and August seventh
of that year, she kills him, and Devin strikes Jonathan

(49:42):
on the head with a candlestick like object while he's
lying on his stomach. According to her confession, now again,
we don't have his head, and you know, so we
don't know if this is just true or not. But Joseph,
if we did have his head, would there be some
kind of bruising to his head with the in some

(50:06):
sort of shape of a candlelight object?

Speaker 2 (50:08):
Wait, there is his head, his head is just missing.

Speaker 7 (50:11):
Yeah, oh yeah, and you know there's u I had
a case a few years ago down in Florida where
a guy was a retired judge and he and his
son were doing coke together and the sun dismembered the
judge's body and they've never found his head. So yeah,
it does happen. Uh, And yeah, yeah it did, didn't it.

(50:32):
So it's yeah, don't you don't you wish that we
could all still be shocked? Uh, you know when I'm
still shocked. Yeah, yeah, it's We'll do an entire sun
Sunday on dismemberment sometime. But in this particular case body, Yeah,

(50:55):
I think that there still would be, you know, a
contusion perhaps, like we talked about if if what she's
saying is accurate. Also, here's another thing from an evidentiary standpoint,
dig this. I don't know if you guys agree with
this or not. We you know, this is one of
those cases of what the physician calls non specific homicidal
trauma and the call in the manner of death is

(51:16):
ruled as a homicide. Well, they know the answer rests
in the head, but they can't give you a specific
cause of death. So did the head contain evidence that
could have been linkage back to her. Is there a gunshot? One?
I don't know, you know, you know, we just don't know.
And so you know, now she's the head. Yeah, if
you've got a projectile and the head, it's gone, man,

(51:39):
and you don't know, you know, And listen, body, you
know that area you know where this occurred, there's a
whole lot of nothing out there, you know, so you
never know, you never know where where it was placed
or you know what she did.

Speaker 4 (51:51):
With right, Yeah, we have a huge late two that's
kind of infamous. And I don't know if you remember this.
When those barrels started, oh yeah, supposed need you know,
it was rumored that the mafia would throw all their
you know, evidence basically in like need right. So yeah,
it's it's entirely possible. But the evidence indicates that the victim, Jonathan,

(52:16):
was decapitated using a knife and saw in the exact
weapon has never been recovered police never, we've never recovered
the victim's head, Jonathan's head, and that really complicated forensic
reconstruction because they couldn't they couldn't verify, you know, the confession,
just that these you know, because people do false confess, right, like, oh,

(52:37):
and the cops aren't just going to be like okay,
okase closed. They you know, they really like to tie
the ribbon, right they do.

Speaker 7 (52:44):
But I got to tell you, we do have some
very specific forensic information. If if I am understanding this correctly,
and I've seen an image of the mattress and also
the carpet that's there, Yeah, that blood deposition that they
have there looks like kind of a slow, poor drainage

(53:06):
that wound up. There's not a lot of dynaicism to it.
If you were asking me if I walked in and
somebody said, hey, Morgan, can you tell me if this
is even possible? Does this give off the appearance that
somebody could have been decapitated here? Well, other than the
fact I've got a body that's appsent ahead if I
didn't have the body, Yeah, because it's supersaturated, a term

(53:28):
we use in forensics forensics that the pathologists use. They'll
say that there is so much blood that it's incompatible
with life. But there's no way to measure that volume
of blood because there's people think that we can measure
blood at the scene, like the amount. But when you
get into carpeting and you have that sub you know,
like the padding that's beneath it, it supersaturates that the

(53:52):
mattress is supersaturated. You can only say this is a
copious amount of blood and it probably is incompatible with life.
Ode that this happened right there?

Speaker 2 (54:02):
Mm hm and same. She hasn't been compelled to give
more information as to where this head is, you know again,
like when someone's like, you know, been found guilty. I
feel like that should be pieces of the puzzle that
must be answered.

Speaker 7 (54:18):
Yeah, no, I think she initially and correct me, I'm wrong.
She initially confessed to this guilty and she retracted.

Speaker 2 (54:27):
She tried when she did counsel right, yeah, yi guilty.

Speaker 7 (54:34):
And there's no way you can you know, because it's
in an allocution you know, like b okay, where you
can force them to elocute if you want this sentence.
You know, she's maintaining innocence that sort of thing, not guilty,
you know, So what are you going to do? I mean,
but you know, sometimes people will get on the inside,
they've been on the inside so long, and say, hey,

(54:54):
what can I get for the head? Think about how
horrible that is, you know, so the head becomes leverage
if they've been convicted. Let's say, I'll give you the
position of it if you'll give me a privilege. I
don't know if she'll ever get out.

Speaker 4 (55:06):
Of jail, I don't know. But the jury did review
all the forensics evidence. They listened to witness testimony and
crime scene photos for over two weeks and they deliberated for.

Speaker 2 (55:17):
Just two hours. Yeah, it was pretty dark. Was pretty quick.

Speaker 4 (55:20):
Yeah, So the verdict was Devin was found guilty of
murder with the use of a deadly weapon. Sentencing is
scheduled for January eighth, with fifty one years to life
in prison on the table. So we'll see what happens there.

Speaker 2 (55:35):
Well, it seems well deserved. This is true crime tonight.

Speaker 3 (55:38):
We are on iHeartRadio and we've been talking about the
conviction of Nevada's Devin Brian excuse me, Devin Michaels for
murdering and decapitating her husband. We'd love to hear your thoughts.
We're at eighty to eight three to one crime. And also,
if you have any scientific questions to ask a forensic expert,
Joseph Scott Morgan.

Speaker 2 (55:58):
You also should call because he is here to answer it.

Speaker 3 (56:01):
We only have a couple of minutes, but I wanted
to very quickly talk about another story. I think it's
going to relate back to bruising as well. So this
is a jury update. The jury in Lake Trusdale's trial
is in the process of deliberation and this is for
a June twenty twenty four quadruple homicide. So they are

(56:22):
now deliberating and they will resume on Monday. Back in
June of twenty twenty four, four people, Amanda Parker, Ramanda's cooper,
Keona Ryan, and Brent Brown. They were bludgeoned to death
with a metal pipe in a rural town in Iowa.
Three died at the scene, one died three days later. Now,

(56:43):
the suspect, Luke Truesdale, has been charged with four counts
of first degree murder and it's very confusing. Allegedly, he
told investigators that he the suspect quote wanted to be
in a movie. And this is according to multiple reports
covering his confession, and prosecutors also alleged that the accused

(57:06):
Luke fantasized about being in the center of his own
true crime story.

Speaker 4 (57:10):
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 (57:11):
Yes. And then last detail.

Speaker 3 (57:14):
He said he had done meth amphetamine on the day
of the killings, so of course investigators say that could
have contributed. But murder with a pipe is not something
you hear about very often.

Speaker 7 (57:30):
No violence, Yeah, it really is. I've had a couple. Uh,
it's not the standard bludgeoning weapons. You know. Most of
the time we come across hatchets, and particularly hammers, hammers
of real, real popular and bats like baseball bats. Oh yeah,
so you know, and that does happen. But most of

(57:51):
the time we refer to them as particularly in bludgeonings.
You excited about stabling too, but I refer to them
as weapons of convenience. You know, something you can grab
real quick. But you know, you've got a pipe. This
is kind of a garage area where these people are found.
I got a real interesting insight into this the state
troopers first rolled up to the scene. Guys, they're not

(58:15):
thinking pipe. The first thing they're thinking is carbon monoxide poisoning.
Because there's a vehicle inside of this dwelling. One person
lives in the dwelling inside of a I think inside
of a tent in the dwelling. If I'm not mistaken,
it's kind of a convoluted you know, kind of menagerie
of these these characters that inhabit the spot. But state

(58:38):
troopers rolled up. They thought it was a carbon monoxide
poison case until state troopers approached the bodies and there's
these gigantic pools of blood and they actually found one
of the victims still clinging to life, and they were
medflighted out of there, and of course they they you know,
they succumb later. And you know, I think one of

(59:03):
the troopers was questioned and said, when did you determine?
When did you determine that this was not carbon monoxide?
He said, carbon monoxide does not cause your head to
come apart, And because as he approached, he began to
see these huge, gaping lacerations, underlying fractures and this sort

(59:24):
of thing. Through this attack and with contusions, I'm so
glad we cover this tonight. When you see someone struck
by pipe, if you think about the shape of a pipe, cylindrical, right,
And here's an interesting thing. If the pipe is threaded
on one end, like a piece of galvanized pipe, you
can actually see those those markings translate onto the body.

(59:50):
What does that mean? It's okay, just say we've got
Plato in our hand, and we take something like a
threaded screw and we place it down. And this is
what tool mark examiners kind of what they do. You
compare the threading, you know, like on a screw front.
You pull it out and you look at the play though,
and you can actually see the detail of the screw.
So it's part of this for us in the morgue

(01:00:13):
and at the scene, we're looking, we're scanning for a weapon.
What could generate this, you know, this kind of insult
because you know, like you guys said, this is a
very very violent, personal case, very personal, very personal.

Speaker 2 (01:00:29):
And very rare. Decapitation is a very rare thing, all
things considered, right, Joseph we were talking about earlier.

Speaker 7 (01:00:37):
Yeah, yeah, decapitation is in fact a very rare thing. However,
I have my own theories. It seems like dismemberments are
increasing in number, just all the cases I'm tracking right now,
I've never seen so many. And mutilation, mutilation of remains,
that's that's on the uptick and that's just my insight.

(01:01:00):
But I see there's concurrence there. I think, I think,
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:01:03):
It seems that there's been so many cases, and not
just on Sundays with.

Speaker 2 (01:01:08):
You, Joseph, but where we said, what is happening?

Speaker 3 (01:01:11):
People are using swords to decapitate mother in laws and there.
I mean, it really does seem like we're in this
very strange moment in time.

Speaker 7 (01:01:21):
Person.

Speaker 3 (01:01:22):
Yeah, but listen, if you are anyone with an earshot,
is in any need of any help, we just wanted
to give you the National Domestic Violence Hotline is one
eight hundred seven nine to nine safe.

Speaker 2 (01:01:36):
That's safe. So just so you know that, keep it here.

Speaker 3 (01:01:41):
We are going to unpack the branch Davidians out of Waco.
That more true crime tonight.

Speaker 2 (01:01:57):
Welcome back to true crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with
Courtney Armstrong, who is dancing. He is Bookie. Go ahead, bow, yeah,
nothing needs to There's no better way to shake off
some decapitation checks, right than a little boogie dance. And

(01:02:19):
of course body move in and Joseph Scott Morgan here
with us on Scientific Sunday. Also the host of the
hit podcast body Bags. If you haven't listened to it,
please do three new episodes a week and he's been
breaking down a lot of things about dismemberment, et cetera.
In fact, we have a talkback right now here we go.

Speaker 6 (01:02:40):
Hi, ladies love the show, So for true crime and
chill for something a little less heavy. I wanted to
recommend rom KHN on Prime only three episodes, so easy, compelling.
Thank Tim, for Swindler and for Joseph SBK. I perpetually

(01:03:01):
wonder if he was aiming to create a murder house
scenario so that the professors that he admired would use
it for their students. Okay, thanks, keep up the good work.

Speaker 7 (01:03:13):
Yeah. Was that? Was that? Because we use it at
Jack State? I mean, I've got a I've got an
eight room Crumson house, So yeah, I mean, and it's
something that he would have been in the program. At
the sales, they've utilized this and there were actually articles
written about this program relatives that work that were out

(01:03:35):
and it's a real you know, it's a real tool,
So he would have had had that. I think one
of my questions would be was he taking the knowledge,
perhaps as twisted as it was, and that he had
gleaned from there and then trying to apply it there
and understanding it, but please I beg you to keep
in mind you a forensic scientist. He wasn't trained to

(01:03:57):
be a forensic scientist. And he's in a criminology.

Speaker 4 (01:04:00):
Program, right, and totally different.

Speaker 7 (01:04:03):
Completely different. Yeah, it's you know, it's completely different. Criminology
is a subset of sociology.

Speaker 8 (01:04:11):
World.

Speaker 4 (01:04:13):
He was particularly interested in sexual burglary in his criminology program,
so yeah, he was in a totally kind of different
He did study cloud forensics and whatnot, and he had
I would say, an expertise in that, but as far
as like forensics forensics go, so he wasn't studying that yet.

Speaker 7 (01:04:32):
Yeah, so a little bit of knowledge, you know, sometimes
can can really Eddie Murphy. One of my favorite quotes is,
you know, give an inch to take a mile, give
them a rope. They think they're a cowboy, right, and
you know, and that really, you know, that really applause.
You know when you think about it. You know, some
people think they're an expert. Yeah, ain't.

Speaker 2 (01:04:51):
Okay, Right, there's a couple of things on that case
that I'll never understand. The phone, like why would you
ever bring your phone around? In general? That was you know,
we interviewed a student who his student who said that
was like the first thing they learned in that class. Yeah,
that was his first like mistake, and thank god he
made it. So I'm not suggesting otherwise. By the way,

(01:05:16):
rom On the suggested true crime and chill, I ate
it up. I ate it up, like, don't get me started.
I ate it up. And it's a great suggestion because
it's crime. It is a crime. It's by the way,
crimes of the heart count and boy o boy oh boy.

(01:05:37):
And you know, it sort of looks at just being
bamboozled in the spirit of love and belonging and intimacy
and connection. By the way, not so different to what
you know, body you've been preparing for is tonight too
talking about a cult? You know again, Tier one to
getting involved in a cult is connection, Right, That's what
everybody's craving until it gets weird, That's right.

Speaker 4 (01:06:00):
And when I was preparing for this tonight, you know,
was proposed to me, Hey, let's talk about the branch
Davidians and I have like a hyper interest in colts.
I think they're really fascinating. So I was like, okay,
so we have like all the details, like you know,
laid out or whatever. Fine, but there's like a story
within the story that I really wanted to tell to
how salacious and it's interesting, and that this is the

(01:06:21):
kind of the angle I wanted to take. So we're
gonna go into totally different directions. That's okay, love it,
so Vernon Howell. Vernon Howell is David Crush.

Speaker 2 (01:06:29):
Okay.

Speaker 4 (01:06:30):
But when Vernon Howell first arrived at Mount Carmel in
the early eighties, he wasn't yet David Krush. He was
Vernon Howell. He's a twenty one year old. He was
a skinny kid, and he was drifting into a community
of older believers, you know, elderly people, led by a
woman who had been preaching this prophecy since before he

(01:06:51):
was born.

Speaker 2 (01:06:52):
Okay.

Speaker 4 (01:06:53):
Her name was Lois Rodin, and she was the reigning
matriarch of the Branch Davidians.

Speaker 2 (01:06:59):
Okay.

Speaker 4 (01:07:00):
And the Branch Davidians are like an offshoot from the
Seventh Day Adventists. They have their own They were all
bran Seventh Day Advatists, but they branched out and they
formed their own thing, and they're called the Branch Davidians.
So Lois, she's in her sixties, Okay. Vernon was barely
twenty one, and what happened would set off a chain

(01:07:20):
reaction that ultimately helped lead to one of the most
infamous standoffs in American history. Lois had inherited leadership of
the group after her husband Ben died. She taught unique theology,
including the idea that the Holy Spirit was feminine. The
doctrine made her somewhat of a visionary, right, like this

(01:07:41):
is kind of you know, oh my goodness, this is different, right,
even controversial inside her own movement. But when Vernon arrived again,
that's David Krush when he was in his twenties. When
Vernon arrived, Lois saw something in him, Okay, a spark,
a charisma, whatever you want to call it. He had
a fluency was scripture that seemed almost unnatural, and a

(01:08:02):
lot of people that you know survived Waco said that
David just had a way with scripture. Okay, So he
was naturally talented in this, okay, But she saw something
in him, and guess what, they started a sexual relationship.
He's twenty, she's in her sixties, okay, and they both

(01:08:24):
saw it as divinely ordered, like this is from God.
We have to be in this relationship. But to Vernon
it was destiny, all right. To him, it was destiny.
He claimed God had chosen him to father a child
with Lois, a child who would embody the feminine holy
spirit that she preached about. And to Lois it seemed

(01:08:45):
like confirmation of everything that she had been preaching. So
they formed this relationship.

Speaker 2 (01:08:50):
Well, stand by, she's in it, did I hear you? Correctly?

Speaker 4 (01:08:53):
She's in her sixties, correct, and he's in his twenty's.

Speaker 3 (01:08:57):
He's not even twenty one year Okay, that if we're
talking about conception though, that's right.

Speaker 2 (01:09:02):
I'm getting old right now.

Speaker 4 (01:09:03):
It's yeah, I know. But when you you know, are
in this, you know spiritual psychosis that they're in, right,
you know, it's divinely ordered, right, your body can do anything,
it will overcome.

Speaker 2 (01:09:14):
Right.

Speaker 4 (01:09:15):
But there's a there's a problem. Standing just off stage
of all this nonsense is George Roden. Now he's Lois's son,
and he's her expected successor, right, he's the hair to
the throne of this branch Davidians, and he saw Vernon
as an opportunist, a threat, and an insult to the

(01:09:38):
family line. The idea that this young man half is
more than half his mother's age was now her chosen
spiritual and physical partner was just more than he could tolerate.
And it wasn't just jealousy. It was fight for the
control of this religious empire. Okay, this is a massive
empire they're building.

Speaker 2 (01:09:56):
Wow.

Speaker 4 (01:09:57):
As Lois grew older and weaker, Vernon influence only and testified.
It's almost like he was a parasite, like sucking the
life out of Lois, and the weaker she got, the
stronger he got, right, like a parasite. I'm using that,
but anyway, Okay, so he started preaching with more authority,
and he positioned himself as the true interpreter of the prophecy.

(01:10:19):
All right, And when Lois died, she died in nineteen
eighty six, the question of who's going to rule erupted
into open war, like open war where George took over
naturally because he's the air. But Vernon he had gathered
all these people that believed him, so he moved, you know,

(01:10:39):
down down the road, down the road with all his
little disciples. So now the branch Davidians has split into two. Okay, well,
this is where it gets kind of wacky. So George
guess what he does in order to send a message
that he's the real prophet, He's the real you know
one He digs up a body from one of his

(01:11:03):
disciples that had passed away and basically hangs a sign
on this body and says, if Vernon is the real prophet,
he will bring this person back to life. Well, Vernon
was not having that right. He's like, okay, he got
all his guns and his disciples that were with him,

(01:11:23):
and there was a literal gunfight at Mount Carmel over
the the.

Speaker 2 (01:11:31):
Leadership. Sorry, I lost my I lost my I lost.

Speaker 3 (01:11:35):
This is unbelieved. I had no idea that all of this.
I mean, it's honestly, it's it's like a weird.

Speaker 2 (01:11:44):
It is a good grief. Well, listen, this is true
crime tonight.

Speaker 3 (01:11:47):
We are not a soap opera, but we are getting
to the bottom of the Branch Davidians, and we are
also talking true crime all the time. I'm Courtney with
Stephanie and Body movin. And of course it's scientific Sunday,
so we are here with Joseph of Scott Morgan. If
you want to join our conversation about these Branch Davidians
or have a friends of question, give us a call
eighty eight to three one crime, Joseph, what's your what's

(01:12:11):
your take or thoughts on the branch?

Speaker 7 (01:12:13):
Davidians Well, from a forensic standpoint, it was a it
was a hellish nightmare. I knew, I knew a couple
of the folks that that were out at that scene.
Oh yeah, And I'll put it through this way that
one of the nightmare scenarios that you have. First off,

(01:12:35):
they were you know, leading up, you know, when you
had the siege going on, there was a sphere that
people were being killed in the wake of the initial
raid and that people inside the building were going to
be killed. And you know, over a period of time
with the negotiation, they were releasing some people along the way.

(01:12:57):
But you know, when it all came down and you
saw that do you remember the armored vehicle again that
went through the wall and the muzzle of the tank
or the armored vehicle that muscle was not firing rounds.
It was actually distributing that were pumping tear gas, you know,
into the building. And there was some question initially some

(01:13:18):
people thought a gas line had been clipped and that
maybe a spark something that sparked off. I mean, you've
got an armored vehicle going through a wall. Okay, So
they never were really clear at first, but you know,
they it came to find out that there were several
evidences of accelerants being used inside of this inside of

(01:13:41):
this place. And this place is not like incredibly well built,
it's vast, it's really big, but the whole thing's a
damn tinder box. You know. It's made out of like
press board, plywood, the walls, you know, and it was
just and so any kind of fire that would have
initiated and seen and you can see evidence of this

(01:14:03):
if you go back and you watch that footage that's
pulled back I think it famously from ABC that were there,
and you just see this. It's not billows of smoke,
it's rolling flame that's coming out and just coughing out
this black smoke. And so it creates a nightmare inside
of this environment because you'll have bodies that are clustered together.

(01:14:26):
And I've seen this in house fires before, where you'll
have a group of people that will die in one location,
so you'll get like commingling of burned remains and there's
still there. There have been questions for years, are there
still people that are unaccounted for out of all of
this because everything was kind of you know, things carved

(01:14:46):
in on top of on one another. Then if you
one things you want to do is try to establish
if people were executed prior to this or if they
died as a result of smoke inholation. So anytime you
have a building collapse like this, you'll get screws, bolts,
you'll get nails, and some of these things will travel

(01:15:07):
with the body. So you get the body X rayed
and you'll see something that's radio opaque, and it's confusing.
You don't know if it's an actual projectile or if
it's a screw. I've seen score rings, I've seen springs
that have wound up inside of bodies, all kinds of things.
So it was a hellish nightmare you know, that was
created inside of that environment.

Speaker 4 (01:15:28):
Yeah, a lot of people died, seventy six people including
Koresh and twenty five children, twenty five Can you.

Speaker 2 (01:15:34):
Imagine just for the experts and the you know Joseph
like yourself, who's law enforcement, and you know, death investigators
in medical examiners who are arriving on this scene It's
the kind of thing you don't come back from, right
emotionally speaking. And you know, Joseph and I have talked

(01:15:55):
about this offline. He's helped me so much too, Just like,
what are the tools? What are the tool There are
no tools that could prepare a human body, no matter
how trained you are, to walk into a scene where
seventy plus humans are dead, twenty plus children is it's unfathomable. Like,
thank goodness we're talking about it because you know, again,

(01:16:18):
I think that prevents this kind of thing from happening again.

Speaker 4 (01:16:21):
Yeah, this was. This lasted fifty one days, and I
remember I was living in Orange County, California at the time,
and I watched it on the news every day. Every
day we all did, right, like we all watched it.
It was It was horrific. Yeah, seventy six people and
twenty five kids. I just there's so many.

Speaker 2 (01:16:40):
I ever really understood.

Speaker 6 (01:16:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:16:42):
I think it was the first time I understood the
word cult.

Speaker 4 (01:16:46):
Oh okay, And it.

Speaker 3 (01:16:47):
Seems like martyrdom was really a driving force to keep
them from even you know, wanting to save themselves.

Speaker 9 (01:16:54):
They wanted to be they were driven by apocalyptic beliefs,
they were day believed that what was happening to them
was basically ordained and was the apocalypse right like, so
they welcomed it.

Speaker 2 (01:17:06):
Well.

Speaker 3 (01:17:07):
Listen, I was a slightly different note, but we are
all very informed.

Speaker 2 (01:17:11):
Can you do a little more dancing right the t Yeah,
go ahead, Joseph.

Speaker 3 (01:17:18):
As always, we thank you, We're so grateful, we are smarter,
we are more filled with scientific knowledge. Scientific Sunday and
anyone who wants more Joseph, Let's be honest, that's everyone
every podcast. Body Bags and stick around because after the
break we have more to dig into True crime tonight.

Speaker 2 (01:17:48):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight and iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie here with Courtney
and Body and we already miss Joseph. Joseph Scogin. Boy
is he's just not the best of the best. He's
so nice. I have learned so much from working with him,
I can't even tell you. And by the way, many
of those things are how to be a great human.

Speaker 3 (01:18:11):
I was going to say, learned a lot of things,
including just like good humor, good kindness, good people.

Speaker 2 (01:18:18):
He is good kindness, like yeah, his he approaches every
case with such a clear kind mind, which you have
to do. Is that Joseph calling hello, wish hello, I
wish kindness, I'm kindness, police call thanks.

Speaker 10 (01:18:44):
But I do agree with is that wasn't him. But
he is phenomenal and he's such a gentleman. And I
was just going to add the Crime Labs is very
popular with the audience. People have creating. Well, yeah, so it's.

Speaker 2 (01:18:58):
Good questions, humming everybody. And by the way, Boddy, you're
breaking down the David koresh cult story. By the way,
and I know this story very very well. And the
story in the story, yeah, I'm leaning in in a
way I can't describe.

Speaker 4 (01:19:15):
Listen, I call it the making of a Messiah. Oh,
I like that, like that of Messiah. So where I
left off you guys, was Lois had just died, her
son George had taken power. He began publicly haunting Vernon
at the time, right, David krush that was his real name, Vernon,

(01:19:37):
mocking his claims of a divine authority. And then he
dug up that body, right, he dug up a corpse,
and it was the body of a woman, one of
his disciples, that was buried at Mount Carmel and he
placed the corpse in that you know area and put
a sign around it. If Vernon Howell thinks he's the
real prophet, let him raise her from the dead. And
it wasn't a metaphor, it wasn't alligatory. This was George

(01:20:00):
spiraling into delusion because he really thought he was the prophet. Well,
Vernon's not going to take this slaying down. He gathered
up his branch you know, that broke off and they
marched on Mount Carmel and there was a literal gun fight.

Speaker 2 (01:20:19):
A firefight broke out.

Speaker 4 (01:20:20):
Shocks, you know, basically cracked across the Texas Prairie. Bullets
are flying everywhere, and it was the gun battle for
control of this religion. And nobody was killed. But the
shootout ended with the police arresting Vernon and all of
his disciples off to jail on attempted murder charges. But
here's the twist. It should have ended there, right, like, okay,

(01:20:42):
this is over. But George was so crazy in court,
like he was screaming and he was rambling, he was
referencing biblical warfare that the jury found Vernon not guilty
of attempted murder, and George was committed to a psychiatric hospital.

Speaker 2 (01:21:02):
Wow, so this gets been avoided.

Speaker 4 (01:21:04):
Yes, So what did David Vernon at the time is
why did.

Speaker 2 (01:21:09):
He change his name? It's making me crazy with the
Vernon to the David whatever.

Speaker 4 (01:21:14):
It's yes, but this is this is when he sees power.
He took the property, he claimed the followers, he moved in,
and then he changed his name to David Koresh. That's
when he changed his name to David krew and we
know the rest of the story from there.

Speaker 2 (01:21:29):
That's honestly, that's so interesting.

Speaker 3 (01:21:32):
If this were talk about an origin story like this
is I have to imagine that the masterminding of his
just competence to make the sun look so crazy, he
gets committed and then Vernon to be David palms out
the Messiah. It's kind of amazing the king. Yeah, diabolical.

(01:21:53):
What is the what's your favorite?

Speaker 2 (01:21:55):
Courtney? I mean, I love, I love.

Speaker 3 (01:21:59):
He is a megalomaniac for sure, and what he did
and orchestrated was macabre.

Speaker 2 (01:22:04):
A couple of yemes in this.

Speaker 4 (01:22:05):
Whole double the whole thing made him look so important
to his followers because look at he survived the shootout, right,
he beat the charges and his rival was institutionalized like
this guy must be the messiah, like he's beating everything.
It really like put him in charge, like spiritually, for real,

(01:22:28):
in every way possible in his because listen, you really
have to have the belief of your disciples, right like
I really do. And they they really did. They were like, Okay,
this is the guy. This he's the prophet. He just
needs a new name. So David is the biblical king
he believed he descended from. And Koresh It's a Hebrew
form of Cyrus, the Persian ruler who, in scripture, was

(01:22:51):
chosen by God to liberate his people. This was David
Korush's declaration.

Speaker 8 (01:22:57):
Oh, I never know how the last name came about.

Speaker 4 (01:23:00):
I didn't know how.

Speaker 2 (01:23:03):
That was like a little topper at the end there,
But how is that origin story not a movie? I
was just thinking, she was telling you, I don't know
my story, and it's been told so many times for
obvious reasons.

Speaker 4 (01:23:17):
This cult leader, Doris right, the older woman, the lowest.
I'm sorry, she's in her sixties, she's a cult leader.
She got ousted by another cult leader. Like it's it's
mind blowing, it's mind blowing.

Speaker 2 (01:23:30):
It's so timely too. It's is that would that be
considered grooming if you're a young te controversial question, I know,
but I'm just curious. Oh my goodness, so much conversation
about grooming and yeah, wow, yeah, crazy this weekend stuff

(01:23:52):
like I know so much ketchup tomorrow. I know so
much to ketch.

Speaker 4 (01:23:55):
Up on, Like I feel, I feel like something in
the air. You guys, like, I don't know if you've
been watching the news, but I've been glued to the
news all weekend. I've just been kind of like over
obsessing a little bit, and maybe that's why I feel.
But the tension, I can feel it.

Speaker 2 (01:24:12):
It's building. Yeah, even I'm surprised how much it's building,
I think for this week specifically. So I think we
all just need to be paying attention right now. Not
anything scary. This is not like dread sharing, but it
does feel like things are going to heat up in
the next coming days, and if they don't, it's because

(01:24:36):
of something else that might be heating up, you know
what I mean, Like the art of distraction. Yeah, I
just spell all the things, all the things, you know.
I wish, I wish, I wish, I could say otherwise.
So I want to just like throw out positive thoughts
and you know, the truth and good will prevail. You know.

Speaker 4 (01:24:57):
I really recommend people watching that wag Bog movie.

Speaker 2 (01:25:00):
Especially I'm going to watch it tonight. Actually, I was thinking.

Speaker 8 (01:25:02):
About it this whole week and it was a rainy week,
and I was like, I should watch that.

Speaker 4 (01:25:05):
But it's really good.

Speaker 2 (01:25:07):
It's a good movie.

Speaker 4 (01:25:08):
And it's got like a lot of funny moments too,
Like it's not like all serious, it's like a funny movie,
but it's it's like this crisis that's happening in the
presidency and he hires like a PR I'm I haven't
seen it in like in decades. I'm remembering from my memory,
which is terrible. And he basically hires like this PR
firm and they invent this war to distract the American public.

Speaker 7 (01:25:32):
It's very good.

Speaker 3 (01:25:33):
And yeah, Justin Hoffman and Roberts Naro. So there's got
some really such a good cast.

Speaker 2 (01:25:40):
Maybe even now the phone's a ring, we have a
talk back. Let's go to a talkback right now.

Speaker 11 (01:25:44):
All right, let's do it, Hi, ladies. I love your show,
listening and listening to it from day one. My name
is Monica. I live in Naples, Florida. I work for
the Naples the Shelter for Abuse Men and Children in Naples, Unamlockily.
I want you to know that our shelter is one
of the only ones that we accept b the divestic

(01:26:05):
violence victims, human trafficking victims, with children and with pets
in our culture. We have a tag kennel and a
dog kennel and all of the victims are welcome in
our shelter to be safe and sound. So love your show.
Thank you so much. Hope to hear from you soon.

Speaker 4 (01:26:25):
Monica, you are an angel like covered and got unbelievable.

Speaker 2 (01:26:33):
That was Thank you for sharing that you. Thank you.
We're all like a little choke.

Speaker 1 (01:26:37):
That was so weird.

Speaker 2 (01:26:37):
We all went from smiles for miles to just like
full tears. What a beautiful voice of reason and sanity.
Do you know how hard it is to dedicate your
life like Monica is doing to a shelter that allows
for that much grace?

Speaker 4 (01:26:55):
Yeah, I think I mentioned I did that that I
did that talk about animal abuse and and this is
not about me or animal abuse, but a lot of
the times men and women who are in domestic violent situations. Obviously,
when they leave, they're taking their children. The shelter will
you know, let them in with their children, of course,
but many times men and women won't leave if they

(01:27:17):
have a pet a againity because they don't want to
leave the pet and you know, in the hands of
an abuser obviously, and many shelters won't allow pets, so
they just don't leave. It's very sad. So Monica, what
you're doing, I can't tell you how important it is,
but the ripple effect will be felt for generations on it. Literally,

(01:27:38):
think about the generations because every man or woman that
she's saving by doing this, operating the shelter, they're breaking
the generational trauma, right, it is.

Speaker 2 (01:27:48):
A trauma breaker. In fact, it's to put that on
the website too, just so we have clear access to
Monica's information and her shelter, and think about it. Sometimes
if you're in abuse, and again, if anybody hearing us
right now is in an abusive situation, we will also
be posting a place where you can get twenty four

(01:28:08):
to seven at least access to care on the phone
instantly if you yeah, and sometimes you're lost, your pet
is all you have. Yeah, they don't leave your side.
So when you're healing and being re traumatized, sometimes it's
your pet that becomes your best ally. So you can

(01:28:29):
imagine that crossroads when it's time to leave. Monica, that
was beautiful. It's also work you do.

Speaker 4 (01:28:36):
Pets are also something abusers hold over your head too. Yeah,
for sure, Like you know, I'll if you don't do X,
I'm going to harmor the good I'm not going to
say my dog's name because I or Moti or anything,
but yeah, you know, like yeah, it's just it's so
Offering the pets is just it's life saver for many people.

(01:28:59):
So bless you, Monica, thank.

Speaker 8 (01:29:00):
You appreciate that. And Stephanie to your point, well, make
sure we post that info.

Speaker 5 (01:29:04):
But for sorry about all the background noise, but we'll
post that info. And for anyone who wants to contact
the National Domestic Violence Hotline, that number is one eight
hundred seventy nine to nine safe and it's confidential and
available twenty four to seven. And you can also text
if that's an option that makes it easier for you
to do it in a safe, discreet way. And also

(01:29:26):
because Monica brought that up, the National Human trafficking hotline.
That number is one eight eight three seven three seven
eight eight eight. So there's help out there. There people
that are waiting for your calls.

Speaker 2 (01:29:41):
And by the way, they're also brained. This is such
a sensitive thing, but we really want to say it
loud because you know, we talk about all kinds of
stuff on this show, and you know, even sometimes we'll
have a giggle or something, but at its core, it's
really a safety show, adjust a show, a victim forward show.
So if any scenario, if you're feeling a little unsure,

(01:30:01):
you're not sure, you're not clear, they're really trained to
take your call anonymously. It doesn't you don't have to
sound like you know, sometimes if you're in the home
with an abuser, the idea of even making a call
can be very scary. Right that you're you're talking in
the closet. You know, this is what happened sometimes, So

(01:30:22):
they are trained to get your call and slightly talk
in air quotes, code or you know, you're not alone
number one, and there really are resources and you know
tomorrow's a new day.

Speaker 4 (01:30:38):
Gosh, and you know it just I know it's so
hard to make that call too, I know it is,
And I feel like after after you make a call,
you don't have to do anything. Just make the call.
And once you've broken that ice, like you've done it
one time, you do it again, you know what I mean?
Like yep, but making that call is brave in and

(01:30:59):
of itself, right, And again, you don't have to you
don't have to do anything, you don't have to leave,
you don't have to you know, pick up your have
it all figured out, you don't have to have it
all figured out. But once you break the ice and
make that first call, because that's the hardest thing, make
that first call, Just do it. Just make the call.

Speaker 2 (01:31:16):
And by the way, having it all figured out also,
like the plan and the this and the that and
what to do with this and finances and all the
things like that, can be so overwhelming and sometimes the
thing that makes you stay the most, Oh sure, right,
because just like all of the ads and ands and
ands and and let me give it to you straight,
your life is the only thing that matters, period the end.

(01:31:36):
Nothing else matters past that your safety. Everything else and
fall into place and will with the right support. So
not to oversimplify a very complicated thing, but just know
that you know there are resources and that it's tougher
than you thing.

Speaker 4 (01:31:56):
Oh yeah, I saw a video that a lot of
the Epstein victims made. It was put on I saw
it on Twitter. I don't know who made it.

Speaker 2 (01:32:05):
It's wildly powerful.

Speaker 4 (01:32:06):
It's so good.

Speaker 2 (01:32:07):
It is so maybe we could talk about it tomorrow. Yeah, tomorrow,
I feel like we have a full if you have.

Speaker 3 (01:32:15):
A lot to talk about tomorrow and next week. I
mean it's as of Friday, it's a really good fire
hose of information and important videos coming out, and.

Speaker 2 (01:32:27):
It's it's really good.

Speaker 4 (01:32:29):
It's I mean, it teared me up, and you know,
I don't know, it's just please go.

Speaker 2 (01:32:33):
Check it out.

Speaker 4 (01:32:34):
All you have to do is look for Epstein Survivor video.

Speaker 8 (01:32:36):
You'll what was the guest from Thursday In the video,
she is amazing, she speaks in it.

Speaker 2 (01:32:42):
Yeah, she's really a front.

Speaker 4 (01:32:45):
Yeah, she's really good.

Speaker 2 (01:32:46):
And again, this is a case that speaks to anybody
who's been victimized. Right, So, yes, there are forty plus
women who are coming forward to putting together their voice
in this particular never ending saga surrounding Epstein. And yes,
you know, most would say that it might heat up
a bit this week. We'll be paying close attention, but

(01:33:08):
again it's like anyone who's been on the wrong side
of it. We band together and you are enough and
you are heard and listen. Thank you for a great week.
We're going to start tomorrow strong. So despite how you
may or may not be feeling tonight, tomorrow we are
going to shimmy into it. We love you, Stay safe,
Thank you for listening tonight, and Joseph Scott Morgan, we'll

(01:33:32):
see you next week.