Trick or Treat Scandal, the Twilight Murders, and the Black Witch Trials

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
crime all the time. It's Thursday, October thirtieth. It is
almost Halloween.

Speaker 3 (00:28):
Everybody.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
We have a stacked night of headlines and lots of
Halloween twists. I might add, I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with
my true Crime mates Courtney Armstrong, Say hi, court Hello, Hello,
And of course body move in. Who is supposed to
be in a costume right now? Are you, ladies not
in costumes?

Speaker 3 (00:47):
It's Devil's Night mission from Detroit. It's Devil's if you're
from them. If you're Detroit, you know it's Devil's Night.
Be good out there, you guys. It's mischief night everywhere else.

Speaker 2 (00:55):
Oh no, nothing but trouble tonight. Oh why am I
the only dumb dumb wearing costume right now? I thought
that was the plan. I don't even like Halloween, and
somehow I'm the only one iman Oh.

Speaker 4 (01:06):
Dah, there you go, there you go.

Speaker 3 (01:09):
Ta.

Speaker 2 (01:09):
I's like giving us a little Phantom of the Opera
mask right now, which is tray scary. So rest assured,
and I I'm the dope. Well listen, not to switch gears,
but we do. We do have some breaking headlines to discuss.
So yeah, Prince Andrew no longer a prince. He's also
been evicted from his royal residence, so we will be
unpacking that a bit today but also throughout the week

(01:32):
as well. Diddy has officially been transferred to his low
security prison will he will spend the next months and
months fifty specifically unless he is pardoned and back in
the news. Big request for Trump to pardon him from
Ditty's legal team. Also later in the show, Riley Whitson

(01:53):
you remember her from Murder one oh one, also a
summer staffer here at KAT Studios. She's joining us to
give us a very scary and chilling tale that she's
been working on around the Twilight Murders, a little bit
based on the Twilight movies, which I don't know about
you guys, but I love it. And we also have
the host of this great podcast. If you haven't listened,

(02:15):
please do Black people don't do ghosts. That's the name
of it, and it's posted and also produced and created
by Cassilla Jones. She's joining us to tell us a
little bit about her own supernatural encounters, which seems a
little appropriate on the eve a little Goosebump Central. Obviously,
we have Taha, Sam and Adam with us as well.

(02:38):
We hope you've had a great Thursday. Thank you for
sharing some space with us, did I, just like.

Speaker 3 (02:42):
Slur I did?

Speaker 2 (02:43):
Thank you for sharing some space with us? Say that
six times faces Why I dare you, I dare you,
I dare you? And listen, we have some kind of
tragic updates as well, So shifting gears a little bit
in the this horrible case of you know, missing nine
year old Ashley Buzzard. You know we've all been Melanie Buzzard.
Her mother has been literally seen and this is breaking

(03:04):
right now. We saw this a bit last night. It's
being reported on Ashley Banfield Show that she's been taking
down some of the missing posters, even from her front
lawn that's right where her daughter's posters, I mean, come
on yeah, And that it's being asserted that she was
escorted from her property, assuming that means law enforcement could

(03:26):
therefore do a proper search. And again this is a
case we've been getting so much feedback about. Our hearts
are with obviously anybody connected to this case, and we
really want to find Melody safe and sound. She is
just nine years old. If you have not seen her photograph,
please look it up. She is an angel face if
ever there was one. Our prayers are with her and body.

(03:47):
I know you've been following this closely, So what is
this update?

Speaker 3 (03:51):
So the authorities have expanded their search and the disappearance
of nine year old Melody Buzzard. She is again the
California girl missing since early October. She's nine years old.
Detectives today served additional warrants at the home for the
home and an undisclosed like storage locker, plus the rental
car she was driving. And this is the kind of

(04:14):
strange thing. Her mom, Ashley, was escorted away from the
home and she was carrying an overnight bag. So I
don't think she's in custody. I don't think you bring
an overnight bag to jail. But she is not going
to be at the home while investigators searched the property
because they said they could be there for an extended

(04:35):
period of time. So we're gonna, you know, see what's
going on there. But she was last seen in October seventh,
Melody Buzzard, but she wasn't reported missing until a week
later October fourteenth, after the Lompoc school officials noticed her
you know, continued absence and according to the Santa Barbarie
County Santa Barbara County Sheriff's Office, Ashley Buzzard has been

(04:59):
uncooperative thus far with the investigation into her daughter's disappearance.
Officials say that Ashley was taken to an undisclosed location
that would quote unquote not interfere with their ability to
perform a thorough search. So maybe she was given them
the vibes that she was going to be interrupting their search,
you know, and they wanted her to leave the property.

(05:19):
So then they did say they expect that it could
take an extended period of time and by late afternoon,
because this happened this morning, and by late afternoon, a
stretch of Mars Avenue in front of the home was
sealed off with crime scene tape as both local and
federal investigators converged on the scene. Also today, video obtained

(05:41):
by News Nations Ashley Banfield, it looks like the neighbor
was filming the outside of Ashley's home. Not Ashley Banfield,
but Ashley Buzzard filled with like an iPhone, like their phone.
And you can see Mom yesterday plucking the missing person
posters from the mailbox and down the line of her property.

(06:02):
She's just picking them up like trash and getting rid
of them.

Speaker 2 (06:05):
I will jump through the screen.

Speaker 3 (06:07):
I know.

Speaker 2 (06:08):
I can't even handle the fact that a mother is
not full alert trying to help us find where her
daughter is. Isn't that in and of itself an a
restable offense At this point, she's offering no real just investigation.
Of course, that's an obstruction of justice times a bajillion.
You have a child within your care, you were therefore

(06:31):
in charge of their care, and if you were not
filling up to that, you know, what does that mean?
How is she not a person of interest at the
bare minimum? Or being officially brought into custody. It's not great.
This is a very terrible thing.

Speaker 3 (06:45):
Yeah, it's not a good update, right, But I mean
we talked about this last night. I was like, they're
going to have to serve additional search warrants to get
electronics to I think what they're going to need to
do is to figure out who she was talking to
in Nebraska, Like, who does she know? Why did she
go to Nebraska?

Speaker 5 (07:00):
I go all the way from southern California twenty plus
hours at a straight shot and do that trip and
come back within three days, but without your daughter, Like, Yeah,
what in thes went on?

Speaker 3 (07:13):
What sickening?

Speaker 2 (07:15):
And maybe she's off visiting a friend, or maybe there
is some reason. Let's put her hope there for a
hobby in.

Speaker 3 (07:21):
That's what we have to do.

Speaker 2 (07:22):
We have to keep our hope there, and we're not
looking to condemn mom. What we can condemn mom for
is not aiding the investigation. If we can even put aside,
even obstructing it to some degree, you would imagine you
would be screaming from the rooftops, begging people to be
looking and to be searching. So the idea that she's
actually pulling missing papers and signs down from her own

(07:44):
property is it's maddening. Frankly, it is.

Speaker 5 (07:47):
There's no information on this, We'll have to see it
as it comes out, but that behavior is so far
outside of what's comprehensible. I certainly have to wonder if
there's not something disturbing going on with mom herself.

Speaker 3 (08:01):
Right, well, her family did say that she did suffer
some you know, mental health issues after the death of
Melody's father when Melody was six months old, and that
she's kind of declined since then and she would go
on and off medication and be fine and well and
then not. So I don't know if there's anything at play.

(08:22):
And again, you know, we're just talking. We don't we're
not saying that, you know, she's insane or anything like that.
But of course, you know, the family has said that
there are some issues, yeah, for sure, you know, and
you know she was not taking care of her home
and you know that can be depression and that could
lead to so many other different and more serious things.

(08:43):
Right so, we will definitely be following this, you know,
moving forward, and hopefully we can come to you Sunday
and when we're back on the air with a promising
update hopefully, you know, hopefully they'd find some answers and
they locate little Melody, yeah, on.

Speaker 2 (08:59):
A storage for facility either like hearing that there's a
storage facility. All of that just in and of itself
always gives me a chill down. My boy.

Speaker 3 (09:08):
And it could be that she just you know, has
a storage facility and they just want to look at it.
It could be very very innocent, you know, they just
want to check everything. A receipt maybe of a store
she was at in Nebraska, you know, something, anything they
could be looking for. So let's not you know, I
always try not to like jump overboard, but I always
do in my head, do you know what I mean?
Like I'm always like going to the whole worst thing imaginable,

(09:30):
but in you know, let's try to be positive. Let's
do we have a talkback ready, Let's there a talk
about Yes.

Speaker 6 (09:37):
Hi, guys, my name is Ruth and I'm a huge
fan and I just thought that I would call and
let you know you guys are magic. I had to
call right before Halloween and let you know that because
I have listened from the very first episode and congratulations
on over one hundred shows.

Speaker 2 (09:59):
Oh thank you, that is the nice message. A mat
with the Witches of Eastwick? Are we we love that?
Oh my goodness?

Speaker 3 (10:06):
Are we around a cauldron doing magic spells?

Speaker 5 (10:10):
No?

Speaker 2 (10:10):
We're not, because I'm the only dumb dumb wearing an
actual costume right now.

Speaker 3 (10:14):
We're not around anything.

Speaker 2 (10:15):
I feel like I got invited to a costume party
just to get sort of out. Yeah, I'm like, I
never have a costume. Suddenly I'm literally wearing a costume
because I didn't want to be the guy out. So, Ruth,
you're a rock star. Thank you for saying certainly, thank
you for listening to one hundred plus episodes. You know,
if we could toss you a S whatshirt, I swear
they're coming. The hoodies are coming. Big, big ticket operation

(10:41):
happening here. So thank you so much for that beautiful top.
Back right back at you.

Speaker 4 (10:45):
Yes, thank you.

Speaker 5 (10:45):
This is True Crime tonight, and tonight we are going
to switch gears and we're going to go into all
things Halloween. If you have anything you want to say
around the holiday, give us a call. We're at eighty
to eighty three one Crime and body. You have something
to share.

Speaker 3 (11:02):
So this story, it's a true story, but I'm gonna
tell it like a story, okay, because it's Halloween and
we're all sitting around the campfire with any ashmallows and
hot apple cider, and then we're going to tell you
a scary story that happened on Halloween. So this one
is called the Last Trick or Treater. Okay, Oh no,
We're going to journey back to nineteen fifty seven to

(11:23):
a suburban neighborhood in Sun Valley, California, and it's Halloween
night and all the kids are outside trick or treating.
Okay again October thirty first, nineteen fifty seven. The streets
of Sun Valley come with the usual Halloween excitement. There's
ghosts and goblins and witches roaming from house to house
clutching their bags of candy. Peter and Betty Fabiano, married

(11:48):
for two years, spent the evening happily handing out treats.
Peter was a successful beauty salon owner and he loves Halloween. Okay,
So the doorbell rings. Oh no, wait, I skip dead.
It's eleven o'clock. Nope, they're shutting the lights off. No more,
no more trick. It's too late. It's a love The

(12:09):
trick traders have faded away. The porch lights are flickering off,
and the Fabiano's they're going to bed. Suddenly it's the
doorbell rings and Peter he's slightly annoyed, but he's still
in the Hollywood spirit. Holly Hollywood Halloween's spirit. He grabs
the candy bowl and goes to the door, and Betty,
his wife, stays upstairs in bed. As he opens the door,

(12:32):
she hears him laugh and say, isn't it a little
late for this?

Speaker 6 (12:37):
Well?

Speaker 3 (12:37):
The voice that answers is not a child's, it's low
and Betty later tells police that it sounds like a
man trying to sound like a woman, and the voice
simply says no, and then suddenly Boo echoes through the
cryet house. Betty rushes downstairs to find Peter. Poor Peter
lying in a pool of blood, clutching his chest. He's

(12:57):
been shot at point blank range. The killer has left
and vanished into the night. At first, the murder seems senseless.
Who would want to kill a well like slawn owner
and decorated World War Two veteran investigators initially suspect a
random attack or a gang hit, but there's no evident
support these series. The case takes a turn when detectives
interview Betty. She reluctantly tells them about her recent friendship

(13:20):
with Joan Rabel, a freelance photographer who sometimes worked for
Peter at the salon. Betty admits that her close relationship
with Joan had strained her marriage, and that Peter insisted
she's severed eyes with Joan.

Speaker 2 (13:33):
He did not like Joan. He didn't sure. The husband
is like, no, Joan, this friendship's gone way too far
and I'm not into it.

Speaker 3 (13:41):
He's not into it, Like can you can you guess.

Speaker 2 (13:43):
Why because he has eyes for Joan.

Speaker 3 (13:46):
Nope?

Speaker 4 (13:46):
No, I think Betty has eyes for Joe.

Speaker 2 (13:49):
Betty has ding ding ding Ding scandal centralizes.

Speaker 3 (13:53):
A love tryanghen. So she tries to sever her relationship
with Joan, or with Joan to cut off. You know,
she wants to save her marriage. Joan is not having it.
She just rid of Peter. Oh, Joan, Peter, I know,
Halloween Night, beloved husband. Yeah. So a shocking confession changes everything.

(14:17):
Another woman, Goldan Pfiser, turns herself in. Pfiser is a
medical clerk and she's very timid, but she's a friend
of Jon's and she said she was manipulated into the
murderer by Joan.

Speaker 2 (14:29):
So this is like yes man.

Speaker 3 (14:34):
On Halloween Night. So this confession sends a chill through
the whole community. Joan the mastermind used another person as
a pawn in her deadly game. Both women eventually plead
guilty to second degree murder and are set into five
years to life in prison. Five years. It was a cold,
calculated murder born from jealousy and obsession and disguised by

(14:55):
the playful mask.

Speaker 4 (14:56):
Following oh body well told? Goodness, listen stick around when
we come back.

Speaker 5 (15:03):
Riley, who is part of our KT Studios family, is
taking us inside the Twilight Murders. Later we have Casia Jones.
She is the host of Black People Don't Do Ghosts.

Speaker 3 (15:13):
I love that.

Speaker 5 (15:14):
More True Crime tonight.

Speaker 2 (15:26):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. Oh we
are talking true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker
here with Courtney Armstrong. Body move in And what is
happening with this thirty one at list? This comment I
said is coming straight to us or it's going to
the sun.

Speaker 3 (15:42):
Right, So just to feel this up, but it is
on every.

Speaker 2 (15:45):
Channel, including all the news networks, and I feel like
I feel like I watch them all all sides, and
it does seem like there's something there.

Speaker 3 (15:55):
So I dare Okay, So I just got on my watch.
We were in the commercial right and you guys, I
told you I'm terrified of aliens. Okay, like alien movies
scare me. Although I love aliens, I'm scared of the
scary movies. Well, it's just the breaking news says that
Harvard scientist Amy Loeb said that he knows NASA is

(16:17):
sitting on the clearest picture of this thirty one atlas
and that it's of alien origin.

Speaker 5 (16:25):
Well we should break this. I mean, I don't know
if it's aliens. Attack is a crime, but we should
break it down because there's some crazy stuff about the
composition has like never existed before, the way that the
trails are coming.

Speaker 4 (16:39):
There are some really crazy things going on.

Speaker 3 (16:41):
I'm really scared, like for no.

Speaker 2 (16:43):
So it's also it could be a positive thing, right,
Maybe they're happy alien. Maybe they're going to help us,
you know something, you know, regain the reins.

Speaker 3 (16:51):
A little bit. But it's so scary.

Speaker 2 (16:55):
So I've been yapping about this for a couple of
days now and it's like always met with a bit
of an eye roll, and I'm like, I think it's coming.
I don't know what this is in like the veil,
the heat, the sun, something, anyone feeling it. No, but
it is possible that this is there's two sides to this,
by the way, and I think this is going to
be an ongoing conversation, certainly given that some of this

(17:17):
is breaking real time and we haven't had a chance
to discuss it yet. If you have any feedback, by
the way, or if you work at NASA, please jump
in eight eight eight three one crime. We want the scoop.
But it could be two things. One, there's two sides. One,
this is a normal occurrence. It's a it's a happening.
It's very exciting. It's only happened three times. It would

(17:39):
be considered an interstellar event, right, so that's a big deal.
And it's circling the Sun and that somehow maybe affects us,
and I don't know, God knows. I don't know the flip.

Speaker 4 (17:50):
Of that is.

Speaker 2 (17:51):
Is this just a scary tale to freak us all
out on social media?

Speaker 3 (17:57):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (17:58):
So I've been really tracking it for a while because
you know, I'm impressionable, and it's been everywhere from the BBC,
I've seen it. It's everywhere, all front it's everywhere. So
I don't have the answer. But if anybody listening, does.

Speaker 3 (18:12):
Listen, If you work at NASA, and you're just not
working because of the government shut down. Right now.

Speaker 2 (18:16):
The government is shut down, so nobody is really working
at NASA right now.

Speaker 3 (18:20):
Am I accurate about this? They took a photo of
this thirty one at LIST on October second, and this
is supposed to be like the clearest photo yet of
this object. And I want them to call us and
let us know what the heck it is.

Speaker 2 (18:32):
So you're looking, so call them, leave us stop that
the government's down. I do think there's there has to
be people working any NASA. I don't know that the
two of those are connected. I don't know tell us
if that's the case. We do know that we're gearing
up some nuclear testing. Weird timing and you know, apparently

(18:53):
it's happening. It's here, it's around us. I don't like
the timing of it.

Speaker 3 (18:57):
Have anxiety.

Speaker 2 (19:01):
Well, listen, if an asteroid or a commet is going
to hit right now, I'm just really happy to be
with you guys.

Speaker 3 (19:07):
So it's all huddle and everybody.

Speaker 2 (19:09):
We are all around the very same kitchen table, and
we're going to keep each other sane and safe. And
in the meantime, we're also going to have Riley it's
in Riley. You guys remember Riley, of course from Murder
one oh one, the podcast that Kat Studios makes and iHeartRadio.
If you haven't heard it, please download. It's on your

(19:29):
iHeartRadio app. It's beautiful. Riley is the star. She's also
been our summer staffer who's been working with us while
she's tackling school in the whole world because we're all
going to be working for Riley because she's a star,
and she's coming back because she's been following this case
about the Twilight murders based on the Twilight movies kind

(19:50):
of So Riley, welcome back. Welcome back to your show.

Speaker 7 (19:55):
Goblin Eve. I'm so happy to be with you guys.

Speaker 3 (20:01):
We love you every day, all.

Speaker 7 (20:05):
Right, So I have too. I'm going to apologize in
advance to kind of bring the mood down because this
case is truly chilling. We're going across the pond a
little bit, so we're going to Spaldon, Lincolnshire, which is
in the United Kingdom. I apologize if I'm saying that wrong,
but our story starts with our two teenagers and they're
in a little bit of a young puppy love couple

(20:26):
fourteen year old Lucas Markham and Kim Edwards. So these two,
as most young relationships go, they are very codependent and
it slowly spirals into a toxic relationship to its Both families,
Lucases and Kim's, are extremely opposed to Kim lives with
her mother and her thirteen year old sister, Elizabeth and Katie.

(20:49):
Her father is not in the picture, but from the outside,
you know, they can see some tension between Kim and
her mother, but it's nothing really of note, and it's
been pretty odd that Elizabeth is trying to make a
better connection with her daughter.

Speaker 4 (21:04):
Well.

Speaker 7 (21:05):
On April thirteenth, twenty sixteen, the bodies of forty nine
year old Elizabeth Edwards and thirteen year old Katie, which
was Kim's younger sister, were discovered stabbed and brutally smothered
in their beds in their home, and the scene that
the police came upon was truly disturbing and confusing. Well,

(21:28):
alarm bells were ranging whenever the four people did not
show up to school, Lucas, Kim, Katie, and then Elizabeth,
who also worked for the school. The police decide to
go and knock on their doors to check on everything
at the request of some friends and family. And when
they break down the door, they find Kim and Lucas
sitting on a mattress in the family's living room watching

(21:51):
Twilight movies, surrounded by alcohol and ice cream. And this
is the part where I want you to cueue up
the Alfred Hitchcock.

Speaker 3 (22:01):
Yes, listen, I'm hearing that.

Speaker 8 (22:05):
It is chilling.

Speaker 7 (22:06):
They walk in, they say, you know, where is Kim
or where is Katie and Elizabeth? Where are your mother
and sister? And Kim looks at them, she says, they're upstairs.
They look and they say what are they doing upstairs?

Speaker 8 (22:18):
Like are they sick? What's going on?

Speaker 7 (22:19):
And Lucas says, why don't you go upstairs and see?

Speaker 8 (22:23):
In mind these are two fourteen year olds.

Speaker 7 (22:25):
Oh my, imagine that's eighth grade.

Speaker 8 (22:28):
The absolutely just bone chilling podcast.

Speaker 7 (22:33):
Let me give him to the crime a little bit exactly, so,
Lucas he a little bit of backst around him.

Speaker 8 (22:40):
He's a troubled child.

Speaker 7 (22:41):
He caused trouble in school and this is a quality
that drew Kim to him.

Speaker 5 (22:46):
Well.

Speaker 7 (22:47):
He lives with his aunt because his mother had tragically
drowned when he was younger, and his father wasn't in
the picture, so his life was pretty tumultuous to say
the least.

Speaker 8 (22:55):
Well.

Speaker 7 (22:56):
AnyWho, these two had devised a plan because Kim's mother
had allegedly been trying to keep them apart, allegedly allegedly,
allegedly according to Kim, who we know, we cannot trust,
he had been trying to keep the two apart.

Speaker 8 (23:09):
And these two sit.

Speaker 7 (23:10):
Down in a McDonald's, probably eating happy meals because they're
literally children, and devise a plan to kill Elizabeth Katie
or Kim and Katie's mother. So on the night of
April thirteenth, Lucas walks the thirty minutes to Kim and
Elizabeth and Katie's residence. He knocks on the door three times,

(23:32):
or knocks on I'm sorry, knocks on Kim's window three times,
which is the signal they had previously come up with
in the McDonald's dining room. And keep in mind they
had tried this twice before, but Katie Kim I'm sorry,
had actually fallen asleep. So you're knowing that you're going
to murder your mother and likely your sister, but you
just fall asleep.

Speaker 2 (23:52):
Wait, so they had their edious attempts that were thwarted
by her inability to stay awake. That's how casual they like.
She was like, yeah, come on by, but she fell
asleep instead of murdering her mother and her sister.

Speaker 7 (24:06):
Oh my goodness, you will see how truly callous. The depravity,
especially in Kim, is just mind blowing. So Lucas goes,
he knocks on the window, enters through Kim's bedroom window.
He goes to Elizabeth's bedroom first, and he stabs her
with an eight inch butcher's knife that he stole from
his aunt's house and then brutally smothers her. Then they

(24:27):
move to the younger sister, thirteen year old Katie's bedroom,
where they do the same thing to her. Absolutely tragic
and unfortunately this is not quick death for either of them.
In the after Kim's arrest, she was actually telling that
her mother reached out to her, and when she realized
it was her mother's hand and not Lucas's, she flinched

(24:48):
away because she didn't want her mother to touch her.

Speaker 8 (24:51):
Like this girl is just.

Speaker 7 (24:53):
Beyond, absolutely beyond sure. So after the two murders, they
get Sam's mattress. They take it downstairs they take a
bath together. Who knows what else they were doing. I
don't want to think about it. And then they turn
on the Twilight movies and rewatch the entire Twilight franchise
for the next thirty six hours, and they eat ice

(25:16):
cream and drink alcohol.

Speaker 8 (25:17):
Now, this is one more chilling.

Speaker 7 (25:19):
Fact of this case. The only bathroom in the house
was located upstairs, so they had to walk by Katie
and Elizabeth's bodies laying in their beds deceased for over
twenty four hours to use the bathroom. They abided in
this house together, probably imagining themselves as Bella and Edward,
probably romanticizing this entire thing, while Kim's mothers and younger

(25:42):
sister lay upstairs absolutely brutalized. So they go on this
three day just living in the house together, absolutely disgusting, romanticizing,
and you will see Kim was extremely proud of what
they'd done, with no remorse. So the two get arrested.
They're taken in for questioning. Lucas refuses to speak to

(26:05):
the police first, but Kim, on the other hand, was
extremely forthcoming. She had absolutely no remorse for what was done.
She did not try to deflect at all she said quote,
I did not feel anything for my mother. She deserved
it and I'm glad she's dead.

Speaker 5 (26:20):
Oh.

Speaker 7 (26:21):
I was not killing my sister out of anger and
I miss her, But I was excited about killing my
mother and I.

Speaker 8 (26:26):
Was looking forward to it.

Speaker 3 (26:27):
Oh my god.

Speaker 7 (26:29):
Absolutely crazy. And keep in mind these are fourteen year old.
As I'm reading this and researching this case, I had
to continue to remind myself these people are in eighth grade,
and I know that we all go through angsty teen phases.
I mean, I'm just now coming out of it myself.

Speaker 8 (26:43):
Right, It's just a whole other level.

Speaker 2 (26:46):
You know, this is insane, No, this is incredibly dark.
I'm looking at photos of them right now, like he
literally has like you know, fourteen year old preteen acne.
They look like really beautiful all American young kids, right,
and this is shocking. Oh yeah.

Speaker 7 (27:02):
And when you look at Elizabeth and Katie, the two
that were murdered, when you look at their pictures, I
don't know what it is, just their smiles and their eyes.
There's something they have the same eyes. You can tell
that they were just kind people in my opinion, and Kim,
she claimed after the murders that she did it because
there was a resentment that she'd felt towards her mother,
which stemmed from her favoritism towards her sister.

Speaker 8 (27:24):
Katie and all of the family.

Speaker 7 (27:27):
Totally disputed this and said this was incorrect. They just
said that Kim and her mother did not really get along.
And I think that that's the case of many people. Yes,
you and your parents may not.

Speaker 8 (27:38):
Be as close as especially when you're fourtun no.

Speaker 7 (27:41):
Reason exactly exactly now, I think that this is an
important note. In two thousand and eight, whenever Kim was
only six years old, there was an incident where Elizabeth
allegedly struck her in the face. And don't get me wrong,
there is never any circumstance where it is appropriate for
someone to strike a six year old. But it is

(28:02):
very interesting to note Elizabeth reported herself to social services.

Speaker 3 (28:06):
Oh, she turned.

Speaker 7 (28:07):
Herself in and she lost custody of the girls for
roughly six months.

Speaker 8 (28:11):
Oh, they were returned to her care.

Speaker 7 (28:13):
So there may have been some domestic issues. We are
not really sure. But at the end of the day,
I mean just the gravity and the I don't the
lack of humanity.

Speaker 8 (28:25):
It is just gut turning.

Speaker 4 (28:27):
That's year old sister. And then because.

Speaker 3 (28:32):
There was a favoritism between siblings, like the firstborn my mom,
I was the firstborn, and my mom always told me
because I always said, you like Eric more than me,
and my mom would always say, I love you. I
just made all my mistakes on you. That was the
first born, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (28:49):
I think that's accurate. By the way, that's so accurate.
But talk about being a wicked combo too. You know,
we've seen this in many cases before, and Riley, you know,
we've talked about this in the other cases. Sometimes it's
the combination of two people. In this case, it's you know,
Lucas and Kim. Maybe had they not met, you know,

(29:10):
maybe Kim would not have retaliated on her mom Elizabeth
or her sister Katie. Right, it seems like, yeah, maybe
they were the perfect storm and love. I mean with
the heck, now there's no love. They're separated for life.
There I assume both serving death sentences. Likes what happens
to them?

Speaker 3 (29:30):
What happened.

Speaker 7 (29:31):
They were both convicted of murder, and this is super interesting.
Individuals over the age of ten in Great Britain are
considered criminally responsible for their actions. So they were both
convicted of murder and given licenses with a minimum term
of twenty years, which was reduced to seventeen and a
half years later on appeal. But at the time they
are still serving their sentences. And back to what you said, Stephanie,

(29:53):
something very interesting. I'm glad you brought that up. Graham Green,
who was actually elizabeth partner at the time, but he
was away on work when the murders took place, he
said that Kim and Lucas reminded him of Myra. Hanley
and and Brady.

Speaker 3 (30:05):
Had just talked about them last night.

Speaker 7 (30:07):
Well, I know that body, body, I know you know
so much about these two, and this is I think
it reminds me so much. I would have to totally
agree with mister Green on that assertion.

Speaker 2 (30:18):
Oh my, how great is Riley's wonderful Scott, Yeah, great,
Riley is, like she is such a Riley. We're just
so crazy for you. We miss you, We are so
crazy for you. Thanks for sharing that traumatically horrible tail
of you know, traumatized humans. I'm glad they're behind bars,

(30:38):
but it's complicated, you know, over the age of ten
in Britain, that's another unpack for a different day. You know,
what's what's the deal there? Do you get rehabilitated or
do we just throw away the key? Oh no, Oh,
now Taha is suddenly wearing some sort of a costume,
so don't try to do a last licks. Oh he's
wearing the Michael Myers mask right now. Wait, it is

(31:00):
a little scary. That is always scary, but it's not
gonna You told me to wear a costume and you
are wearing a collared shirt, so let the record show
that that did not happen. So no mask is getting
you out of this midway, but technically it's not helping,
so it's totally fine.

Speaker 3 (31:19):
I just felt for it.

Speaker 2 (31:20):
I fell for it, took the serious costumes. I went
out to the Max to get this can to go
get a costume today?

Speaker 9 (31:27):
You bought that today.

Speaker 3 (31:29):
I think I have costumes lying around. I don't have anything.

Speaker 2 (31:35):
I don't even do well in a good day, let
alone anyway, So I didn't want to let you guys down.
By the way, if the costume is so hot too,
that i'm i'm i'm I'm zipping as we speak. So anyway,
God bless Riley. We're so happy happy, happy as she
was here again. We miss her and she is such
a rising superstar. And yes, thank you for mp in.

(32:00):
We wanted to have you join the Conversation live if
you want eight eight eight three one crime, or you
could always leave us a talk back. You do that
so so well. In fact, let's go to one. Now.

Speaker 9 (32:10):
Girls, it's me Andy from Oakland.

Speaker 4 (32:12):
Welcome back, ya.

Speaker 10 (32:13):
But I want to know if you guys have heard
about this Kira Cousin's case where she allegedly, I don't
know how alleged it is, but allegedly she faked a pregnancy,
then bought a realistic baby and took the realistic baby
to the dad's house and they thought that the baby
was cold. They basically didn't even realize it was a
damn fake baby. And yeah, now she's being charged with
donations and gifts from the Gender Risual party and it's insane.

(32:36):
So yeah, I want to know if you guys have
heard about it.

Speaker 3 (32:38):
We were following that close.

Speaker 5 (32:40):
Yes, yeah, I have such a fascination with people who
fake pregnancies because my thought is.

Speaker 3 (32:48):
Where do you think it end?

Speaker 4 (32:49):
Like there?

Speaker 3 (32:49):
Do you think in this case a fake? Some point
this is going to go south right right, She had
a gender reveal party. She posted photos of this like
it's one of those real dolls, like the silicone kind of.

Speaker 2 (33:06):
Like yeah, I mean they almost have like a gel
like if you push their sin. It actually doesn't really
feel like a doll. It's actually sort of creepy, as
I say it, like you feel a little pudge in
like the little baby arm. So it does have a
realistic way about it. But yeah, people who are you know,
air quotes baby crazy, right. They want to have the

(33:27):
they want to have the attention the experience of everybody
they come across. You know, oh no, no, you sit
down because you're pregnant, or let's do a gender reveal.
But at some point the gig is up, right, you know,
it's unless unless I think there's this next crazy level.

Speaker 3 (33:45):
I think there's some psychological problems here. I think she
wanted attention that she wasn't getting. Of course, I think,
you know, there's there's a lot and I think this
probably happens in most of these cases where these you know,
people are faking these pregnancies. But apparently has started to
un ravel because the baby never cried, right, Like, it
never opened its eyes. It never cried, it never moved,

(34:06):
it never so as.

Speaker 2 (34:09):
Yeah, it just so absurdly scary and weird. Yeah, I'm
not she told people it died, that the baby died,
and now everybody's mourning for the dead baby.

Speaker 3 (34:20):
What It's crazy. But I think she's being charged now
with like fraud or something. This is in Scotland. It's
happening in Scotland, so gotcha. I'm not really like familiar
with brown law or whatever, but there's some sort of fraud.

Speaker 5 (34:35):
I think it was the fraud because of the go
fund me that it was. Oh, that's right, premises, that's right,
quote chricking people out of money.

Speaker 2 (34:44):
Right, it's a little bit Munchhausen's by proxy adjacent. Right,
So again, maybe if there was I'm not a therapist,
but I would imagine this is somewhere in there where
you're sort of creating a circumstance and by the way,
a very sad circumstance at some point as well. You know,
you can only imagine how difficult it must be to
lose a child. So now here you are faking it

(35:04):
for all of that affection and attention, but also the
glee and the happiness of having a baby. It's all
very heartbreaking at its core. You know, not somebody who's
feeling very settled in theirselves and in their lives would
do this. But there has to be some sort of
real accountability for that for sure.

Speaker 3 (35:24):
Indy, thank you for the talkback. And by the way,
side note, I'm a little upset with you for not
talking to me about this before the talkback because I
am very interested in this case and we have never
talked about it.

Speaker 2 (35:36):
There, So there, Indy, there, so there you have it.
We miss you, Indy, when we're so glad that you called. Yes,
we have another talkback.

Speaker 11 (35:44):
Hi, True Crime tonight.

Speaker 12 (35:45):
This is Erica from upstate New York.

Speaker 13 (35:47):
You guys were talking about Halloween movies that traumatized you,
and mine is Signs with Mel Gibson and Woquin Phoenix Boddy.
You would not like it because there is a moment
when Walking Season and Alien on the TV and if
you were watching that movie and did not jump and
scream in that moment, you basically were not breathing.

Speaker 14 (36:09):
But love you guys.

Speaker 3 (36:10):
Happy Halloween.

Speaker 2 (36:13):
We love you too, by the way. But Signs is
that the one with like the corn Maize. Yes, I've
seen it. And here's scary for me.

Speaker 3 (36:21):
This is where I get this is where I have
to tap out. It's so scary. It's probably right.

Speaker 2 (36:27):
Now though, according to NASA, the four people that were
in NASA right.

Speaker 3 (36:31):
Now I listen. I Alien movies scare me so badly,
but I also love watching them. Okay, I like to
be scared for some reason. I don't know why, but
I like it, so I kind of watch it with
like my hands, you know, covering my eyes with a
little slit. I've seen that movie like six times. That's

(36:53):
how much I like that movie. It is terrifying. That
movie is so.

Speaker 9 (36:56):
Scary she's talking about.

Speaker 3 (36:58):
I don't remember that scene in particular, but I do remember.
I'm really bad at remembering details about movies, like I
don't know why, but I can like Breakfast Club. I've
seen Breakfast Club one hundred times, and I cannot tell
you a single detail about that movie. By the way,
it still holds up. I just rewatched it.

Speaker 5 (37:16):
I love that's well, thank you for that talk back,
and now I want to see it because oh it's
not the not the alien part of the Joaquin Phoenix part.

Speaker 4 (37:26):
It's really good.

Speaker 3 (37:27):
It's pretty scary. I love m Night Shamalan. He's one
of my favorites, and he did that. I see one
that he's done. It's fantastic.

Speaker 2 (37:35):
I love I don't like any of the movies he's done.
They're too scary.

Speaker 4 (37:38):
Really, I love his work.

Speaker 2 (37:40):
He's an extraordinary director that is not a stain. But
like I have had to leave a few, I don't.
I actually get so. I get too scared, which is
ironic that we make through crime all days, very garful.
I'm more of a justice person, right, I don't like
I get shared that much.

Speaker 5 (37:56):
Is Ron Howard's daughter, Yeah, Bryce, was she in that movie?

Speaker 3 (38:02):
I want to say that maybe she.

Speaker 15 (38:03):
Is is because there was a time she was doing
a lot of his films in particular like she did Yeah.

Speaker 2 (38:08):
Which is why she is like a slightly scary actress
to me, even though she was so good in The Help.

Speaker 3 (38:13):
Oh how great was that movie?

Speaker 9 (38:15):
We have another talkbo since.

Speaker 11 (38:19):
This is Mila from Scottsdale, Arizona and talking about people
being in the attic or the basement flowers in the
attic that movie, the mom moved home, the kids went
up to the attic and she fed them poison because
they didn't live up the family's standard.

Speaker 3 (38:38):
Mm hm this I mean I remember this book, do
you guys when we were little? I think we're all
around the same age I was in. I remember sitting
in the bunk bed. I was in sixth grade and
I was reading this book obsessively. We had just moved
to California from Detroit. I had no friends. I spent
the entire summer reading VC Andrews books and came back.

(39:01):
I can't believe my mom let me read these books.

Speaker 2 (39:03):
So your mom allowed you to have the inside of
the crime Scene books, That's true.

Speaker 3 (39:08):
I could buy it and my mom did too.

Speaker 2 (39:10):
I guess we all had this similar summer where that's
where we read and apparently didn't go outside and we're supernoes.

Speaker 3 (39:17):
Which is great.

Speaker 2 (39:19):
But yeah, remember they held all that like they had
that like platinum blonde hair brother and they were in
the attic was again yes, ever heard of incestret hit
and they only had each other and then got real
fired in the attic.

Speaker 3 (39:36):
I got very, very weird.

Speaker 4 (39:38):
But that was a great book, and all of VC Andrews.

Speaker 2 (39:41):
I just I love that one of the movies were
all that good, right, Like there was a million kickoff
movies that I was sort of excited about. I can't
remember any of them offhand, but it's a great point,
great talk back, because yes, I guess that is the
equivalent of having people in your walls, would be storing
your kids.

Speaker 3 (40:01):
In the attic. I can't believe you knew about this
when I mean, this froggying thing is so scary to me,
and you knew about it.

Speaker 2 (40:08):
Oh scary, yikes.

Speaker 3 (40:10):
I know, I know. This is true crime tonight on iHeartRadio.
We're talking true crime all the time. I'm body and
I'm here with Steph and Courtney and we're here on
Mischief Night. Or if you live in Detroit, it's Devil's Night. Yeah, Oh,
we used to go toilet. This is a night when
people go toilet papering. And when we were little in Detroit,
Devil's Night is a big thing, okay, And we were little,

(40:32):
so we would just go outside of bang pots and
pans together and that the whole neighborhood was in on
it too, the whole I mean, everyone was doing it
like toilet papering. It was just a really fun fun time.
I missed that I missed. But if you want to
weigh in, if you have a fun traditional Halloween. Give
us a call eighty eight thirty one crime. We want
to hear it. Let's go to a talk.

Speaker 16 (40:54):
Hi, ladies, Sarah from Michigan, and I just wanted to
commend you guys for shouting out Officers Farley in the
Sonia Massy case. Because the convicted officer, I don't even care.

Speaker 4 (41:05):
To know his name.

Speaker 16 (41:06):
He doesn't matter in this. He is shedding a bad
light on Caps and Officer Farley is doing the right
thing and he was told the truth and that's so
important to be brave, like you said, so I'm glad
we can all remember his name instead.

Speaker 2 (41:21):
Yeah, not an easy spot, you know, if you're if
you're in law enforcement again, I haven't been, but you know,
we watch the movies. We know people in love, people
that work daily in law enforcement. You know, you don't
turn on your partner. You guys spend so much time together.
So yeah, that took a level of courage and bravery.

(41:41):
That's really to be commended. And that is not an
easy spot to be in.

Speaker 3 (41:46):
Yeah, that took a lot of bravery. I mean you
would think, like telling the truth, you don't have to
be brave to tell the truth. But this guy has
to walk into sometimes you do and some other police officers,
and I think it was very brave of him to be,
you know, telling the truth.

Speaker 2 (42:03):
I just think it's important and we do such a mentality. Yeah,
we saw that in the Carritade case. You know, we
talk a lot about the Boston you know, the Canton
Police Department and sort of, you know, one bad person
could really spoil it for everybody because you're sort of
there's you know, chain of command and you know who's

(42:24):
been there longer, and and and and.

Speaker 3 (42:26):
To break that takes a really a.

Speaker 2 (42:30):
Really strong person strength of character, the strength of character,
which I think is more often the case than not.
And I'm glad we're at least celebrating that lack for sure.
Do we have another talk Sarah, who left that last
talkback loft to follow up talk back that I think
you guys might like to hear here.

Speaker 3 (42:51):
Okay, love it.

Speaker 16 (42:53):
I'm true crime and chilling all by myself with my
glass of wine, and it is too easy to leave
talk back.

Speaker 2 (43:00):
I need to.

Speaker 16 (43:01):
Stop with the wine and I need to stop sending talkbacks.

Speaker 4 (43:04):
But I'm watching true Cray Oh come in.

Speaker 3 (43:11):
Well, I mean I remember, like drink. I don't drink,
but I used to, and I would, you know, drink,
and I would call people and text people, and I'd
make up in the morning and be like, oh my god,
we need to give you a breathalyzer for your phone, Sarah.
That way, in my head, I don't.

Speaker 2 (43:27):
I want to cleanse right now.

Speaker 3 (43:28):
So I haven't been either. I will say.

Speaker 2 (43:30):
Though, in my head, we are all around the same
kitchen table having a glass of proverbial wine and toasting
each other and having giggles to the cows come home.

Speaker 3 (43:41):
But it is easy to leave a talkback, Sarah, and
we're so glad that you were able to do it
with your glass of wine.

Speaker 2 (43:46):
If you could do it with a glass of wine,
you could do it without it. So Sarah, keep them
coming and have a glass for us as well.

Speaker 3 (43:54):
I like a Brenet I like. I like it too,
and I like prosecco. I like tequila. I can't just
I get too I get too tired the next day,
like and I wake up with like a headache. I
feel like, you know, I ate an ashtray, and it's

(44:15):
you know, like I just sometimes feeling that's feeling.

Speaker 2 (44:19):
But yeah, in my head, if I were to close
my eyes, my happy place is in the middle of
a dance floor?

Speaker 3 (44:24):
Is it really in a nightclub?

Speaker 2 (44:27):
I was somewhere, and I mean, and this goes decade,
It's been a really long time since that's been the case.
But if I had to close my eyes and cent
her up, that's actually where I find myself.

Speaker 5 (44:37):
See, I'm in an old dan bar in my happy
place club and I was, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (44:43):
A good dive bar with some mozzarella sticks. I'm good
to go.

Speaker 2 (44:49):
That's like I'll have a mazzarella stick on the dance floor.

Speaker 3 (44:52):
Yeah, I like, you know, like some music. Here's the thing.
I don't like to yell and scream and when I'm
trying to talk to somebody, So give me some like
tone down music.

Speaker 5 (45:04):
I like in a bar that ends with like sweet
Caroline everything.

Speaker 2 (45:09):
I like it. That's where they're irish at all of us,
where it comes in a very big way. I like
both of those scenarios very much. So I don't disinvite
me to your happy place. But when many times I
have been in a pickle and I've just like centered
and like imagined being in the middle of a dance did.

Speaker 3 (45:27):
You guys imagine the worst.

Speaker 9 (45:32):
Let's do it.

Speaker 5 (45:33):
Let's do it. I'm gallus, I'm a really good wing woman.
I am I am too actually okay, by the way,
and you'll love the scene here and it's fun and
people are lovely and it is like everybody's sort of
up for it's really nice.

Speaker 2 (45:49):
I would love it. I would love that more than anything.

Speaker 5 (45:51):
Actually really good and has some ribs. Well listen, keep
it here. Coming up at the top of the hour,
Casia Jones. She's the host of Black People Don't Do Ghosts,
and she will be joining us to talk about the
Black Witch Trials, the little education here, and share some

(46:13):
other terrifying encounters with the supernatural. Don't forget You should
give us a call eight eight eight three one Crime.
We'd love to hear from you on this Halloween Eve,
True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (46:33):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with
Courtney Armstrong, Body move in, Taha, Sam and Adam in
the house. If you've missed any of the first hour,
please do nutstress. You could always catch us as a
podcast right after. You could also join us live by
calling eight eight eight three one crime. Or you could

(46:55):
always leave us a talk back, which you guys are
doing so well and we're so proud. Just go to
your heart radio app and kind of in the top
right hand corner there's this little microphone push that leave
a message and then boom, we will play that message
on the show. Or if you don't want to be heard,
you could always leave us a DM. But they're not
nearly as fun even though they are so good, So

(47:17):
keep them coming, keep them coming.

Speaker 5 (47:19):
And as Sarah approved, you can do talkbacks with or
without wine.

Speaker 4 (47:23):
It is your option.

Speaker 2 (47:24):
Listen, this is a judgment free zone. Bring on the wine,
bring on the cocktails. Party with us. Pull up a
chair because we have an extraordinary host and creator of
the podcast Black People Don't Do Ghosts, And of course
Casia Jones is with us, who's going to share her
own personal supernatural encounter. And you know she has this

(47:47):
great way of saying sears right, so see dash ers
is kind of how I see it, right.

Speaker 3 (47:56):
So we're so happy to have you here.

Speaker 2 (47:59):
Thank you for joining us on the eve of Halloween
and for sharing your tale.

Speaker 3 (48:04):
Welcome to the show.

Speaker 8 (48:05):
Yay, thank you so much. I'm so happy to be
here with all of you.

Speaker 2 (48:09):
Right back at you. So tell us everything. Where should
we begin?

Speaker 8 (48:13):
Oh my gosh, so well. Yeah, I am just like
a weirdo kid that grew up on horror. We were
very much a family that went to church every single Sunday,
went to Bible study, sing in the choir, played the piano.
But my mom and I were obsessed with horror. So
even in like the third grade, when we were going
to get like tapes from the video store, my brother

(48:36):
and sister and my dad would get like Hulk Hogan movies.
They would get WWE Wrestling, and my mom would get
like hell Raiser, Pumpkinhead Pet Cemetery. And I was in
like third grade at private school watching this with my
mom and going to school and telling stories. Yeah, she

(48:56):
got called into the office once or twice, but I
was just a weird o kid that wasn't scared by it.
I was incredibly intrigued by it and just became obsessed
with it, and it has carried me into my adulthood.

Speaker 5 (49:11):
That's amazing, amazing and also a very good company. We're
all talking about watching all these scary things that grossly
inappropriate ages and all of us did. But I have
to ask, how what inspired you to create Black people
Don't Do Ghosts? And sort of what's your biggest hope
that people take away from it?

Speaker 8 (49:31):
Well, what inspired me to create Black people Don't Do
Ghosts is I'm an actor and writer like everybody in
LA and because I'm so obsessed with horror and the paranormal,
you don't get many black people in that genre. Even
when you watch like true paranormal series, which there are
five million of them. Even the guests that they're interviewing

(49:55):
are always like these like super sweet white people that
live in like Wisconsin a farm and like their horse
was haunted and it's like, yeah, it's where. Yeah, I'm like,
we are here, we.

Speaker 17 (50:10):
Love it just as much.

Speaker 8 (50:12):
But I feel like we're so underrepresented in that area,
and you know, we're always like the you know, the
running joke is like black people don't do ghosts. We're
the first ones to die in every single horror film
if we're in it, right, and or we're running away
from stuff, right. The joke, the running joke is like
that me and my especially my neighbor upstairs who is

(50:34):
she's white, and something will happen outside, and she'll text
me and she's like, I'm going out there.

Speaker 2 (50:40):
Of course we're going out there the movie just for clarity, right,
you know. Baby, She's always like.

Speaker 3 (50:50):
I want to go out in the in the in
the woods and check it out. You guys wait here immediately.

Speaker 8 (50:56):
And I'm like, girl, you know, black people don't do ghosts,
and then saying that to her over and over. And
we were hiking, We hike Griffith all the time. We
were hiking, and I was like, what do you think
do you think I should do like a podcast about
how like I'm just this weird black girl in paranormal
because there's so many of us, but you never hear
from us. And what if I put like a spin

(51:17):
on it kind of add some jokes and some comedy
in with it. It's a way for me to like
write because everything is like shut down, and it's a
way for me to represent us in the genre in
a different sort of way.

Speaker 17 (51:31):
So that's what inspired it.

Speaker 3 (51:33):
I love it, love it, I s love it. So
tell us about these Black Witch Trials of sixteen twenty
because I've never heard of this.

Speaker 8 (51:44):
Before, girl, you and me both because like, yeah, never
heard of it. We're not taught this in school. What
are we taught in school?

Speaker 4 (51:52):
The same trials?

Speaker 17 (51:54):
Right, and that's it.

Speaker 3 (51:56):
Right.

Speaker 8 (51:57):
So Salem happened about seventy ish years after the Black
witch trial that happened in Cartagenia, which I'm probably pronouncing
wrong for all my people, I'm so far okay. So
there were five black there were more than five, because

(52:18):
that was a huge port also for.

Speaker 17 (52:20):
The slave trade. Right, that's how we have Acro Caribbean people.

Speaker 3 (52:23):
Right modern day Columbia.

Speaker 8 (52:26):
Right, Right, So that was a huge port. There were
an insane amount of slaves in that port. There were
also trials that happened after that because there was a
community of like free slaves women who were black and
who were also on trial as well, which also happened
before the Salem witch trials. But I was trying to

(52:49):
come up with a way of showing what happened to
black women who were deemed witches because it's completely rooted
in racism, right, we know that the same lan which
trials were rooted in patriarchy, and but they were not
put on trial because they were white women. And yes,

(53:11):
there were a few black women that were in there,
but they were in play black women who were just
like homegirls with those white women that just you know.

Speaker 17 (53:20):
Happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Speaker 8 (53:23):
So there were five African slaves. There were four females
and one man. Now the man got to quit it, Okay,
the man was like, hey, yo, didn't do it, not
confessing to anything.

Speaker 17 (53:37):
They let him go.

Speaker 8 (53:39):
Very surprising, right, because not only was he still a
black person, but they were also like, well, you're a dude,
so we're going to believe you.

Speaker 2 (53:47):
Right, you transferred to a low security prison nearby.

Speaker 4 (53:53):
And caught on video. Yeah, yeah, fair.

Speaker 8 (53:59):
Right, So he was still protected even though he was
a black dude. So yes, he initially got caught up
with them. So I will try to pronounce their names again,
sorry my amazing Latino community. But cos Mae Negro was
the black man. Leonor g Omar, Polonia and Maria Linda

(54:21):
were the four black women.

Speaker 17 (54:23):
So they were slaves.

Speaker 8 (54:24):
And there was a pastor preach called Father Sandival. So
he wrote all these works in which he described like
all the African people were doing these horrible rituals. The
rituals were singing, dancing, speaking their language. Right, those were
the horrible rituals.

Speaker 17 (54:43):
Because what did y'all do? Y'all wait and.

Speaker 8 (54:45):
Got these people from their country, kind at them, enslaved them.

Speaker 3 (54:49):
Oh my god, they're doing their traditions.

Speaker 8 (54:52):
The traditions exactly. So this guy is like, listen, I'm
a pastor, I'm a preacher. I of course I'm telling
you the truth. You know, I have seen these things.
So he stated that he saw them eating human flesh
and that the women would perform sexual acts with a devil.

(55:13):
Oh boy, oh, I mean my question is right right,
Like that's well, what have you been doing, Like where
have you been hanging out? Because why how did you
witness these acts that were supposedly being done with this devil?

Speaker 3 (55:27):
Exactly?

Speaker 2 (55:28):
This is pre bodycam and instagram, right, this is like
straight up had to be there to know exactly.

Speaker 5 (55:35):
Right, this is true crime. Tonight, we're on iHeartRadio. I'm Courtney.
I'm here with Stephanie and Body and Taha and Adam
and Sam in the control room and we are so
lucky because tonight Cassia Jones has joined us and she
is the host of Black People Don't Do Ghosts, an amazing,
amazing podcast, and Cassia is filling us in on the

(55:57):
up until now unknown to me, Black Witch Trials of
sixteen twenty. So if you have any questions for Cassia,
give us a call eight at eight three one crime.

Speaker 4 (56:07):
So Casilla. What happens then?

Speaker 8 (56:11):
So the four women are accused of participating in all
these demonic acts, right.

Speaker 17 (56:15):
So they're like, okay, what are we.

Speaker 5 (56:17):
Going to do?

Speaker 8 (56:18):
We need to break these women down because we're letting
Homeboy go. Homeboy's like, I wasn't a part of it,
it's just them. I'm out of here. And they're like, yo,
do a fine, go, we're going to let you go.
So the four women are on their own, and they're like, okay,
how are we going to get out of this? Not
only are we slaves, let's start there. We've been kidnapped, right,
We've been taken. We've been told that we can't speak

(56:41):
our language, we can't communicate with one another because how
do we know what language we're even supposed to be
speaking here? We are not from this place, right, We
got thrown here and now we've just got to figure
stuff out on our own. So they start pressuring them.
So the position was very much like, okay, let's do

(57:02):
everything we can to torture them and break them down
to get them to confess, still happens to this day.
Just think of like the Central Park five, right, they
were all taken, get basically tortured mentally and emotionally and confess.

Speaker 17 (57:18):
To something that they didn't do.

Speaker 8 (57:21):
Thinking that this was going to help them.

Speaker 2 (57:23):
So it happens more than we thinking that the way
that actually happened, more than we think, more.

Speaker 17 (57:28):
Than you think.

Speaker 8 (57:30):
And it happens, I will say, it doesn't just happen. Yes,
doesn't happen to black people in extraordinary numbers. Yes, but
you could turn on line and you can see so many,
you know, white kids and white men who have confessed
to crimes they never did as well.

Speaker 2 (57:45):
So true.

Speaker 8 (57:46):
So the first one to confess and break down is Leonora.
Leonora's like, okay, listen, yes, me and my girls. You
know we were up in there. We were hanging out
with this black devil and we were just like doing stuff.
But she's like, hold on, I'm not the leader. The
person who brought me into it was Geomar, which I'm
probably pronouncing correctly, and Marie Linde. She's like, listen, those

(58:07):
two are who you really wants, right, She's like, listen,
we were girls, but also I got to protect myself, right,
like do whatever you're do the worst to them and
and let me try and save myself, because what are
you going to do. She tells them that they initiated
her into it and that she was terrified, and basically

(58:30):
the girl just didn't want to die alone because they're
all like, we're all going to die, So I got
to take I'm gonna take my girls with me because
death is better than whatever it is that we're going
through here.

Speaker 2 (58:41):
A little, but what they are going through.

Speaker 8 (58:47):
The exactly death would be better. I mean, think about
you know, you've been taken on this shift, you're in place,
what what what?

Speaker 17 (58:55):
What else?

Speaker 3 (58:57):
I don't even know? Right, Yeah, you're right, death is
is likely.

Speaker 17 (59:03):
Death is better. Death is better.

Speaker 8 (59:06):
And so hysteria, much like in The Sane Witch Child,
rises quickly, right, but it's rising within the community very fast.
And they're like, listen, we.

Speaker 17 (59:15):
Got to get these girls.

Speaker 8 (59:16):
Not only are they black and not only are they plays,
but they're witches and they're hanging out with.

Speaker 17 (59:20):
The Devil in the woods.

Speaker 8 (59:23):
So they're cue and they had to appear before the
Holy office in Cartagenia, and Geomar is like, you know, wait,
hold on, I got somebody else's name, but I can
drop right now. And then that's when she drops Polonio
polonia excuse me. And that's how Cosmo Negro gets in it.
Oh and he's like, hold on, I don't even hang
out with them like that.

Speaker 3 (59:43):
I don't even know them, right, lose my number?

Speaker 2 (59:47):
Yeah, I don't know these cats, right yeah?

Speaker 3 (59:49):
No, no, well I.

Speaker 8 (59:50):
Don't know girls like I don't hang out with them
like that, Like we're not chilling. So they're all taken, right,
they're kidnapped, they're enslaved, they're in Saane, they don't speak
perfect Spanish. They're just learning, you know, whatever they could
learn at the time, which keep in mind, people are
telling them the things that they should be saying and doing,
so they don't even know if they're learning the exactly

(01:00:15):
they're just repeating because how would they know, right. Yeah,
So they're all accused and the things that they're also
one of the things that really got to me is
that they were accused of flying to secret meetings with
the devil.

Speaker 3 (01:00:33):
Oh okay, so.

Speaker 8 (01:00:36):
You're telling me these women who were enslaved instead of
flying out over there and flying away forever, decided to
just fly around the woods with the devil, hangout.

Speaker 17 (01:00:47):
And then come back and be slaved.

Speaker 3 (01:00:49):
Sounds yeah, that sounds about right right wild.

Speaker 17 (01:00:55):
Impossible.

Speaker 8 (01:00:56):
So that's what they were being accused of, and that
it just got worse and worse. So GMR confesses that
she was baptized as a Christian. But they're like, okay, fine,
start saying some prayers and she's like, I don't know
any prayers. And she's like, I hang out in the
mind because I'm a slave and I didn't learn prayers.

(01:01:19):
That was her excuse. So they start trying to come
up with different stories and outdo each other on their stories, right,
because they're all trying to save themselves at this point,
or just say, hey, we're.

Speaker 17 (01:01:34):
All going to die anyways. We don't want to be.

Speaker 8 (01:01:36):
Slaves, we don't want to be here, so let's just
tell the most fantastical things. Confess to everything, because these
men are not going to let us go. So Leonor
is under pressure from the Spanish inquisition. She confesses first GMR, next,
then Maria Linda and Polonia. Now Polonia had been tortured,

(01:01:59):
so her confess.

Speaker 5 (01:02:00):
Oh my god, I'm gonna pause you right there because
music's coming in. But listen, stick around because after the
commercial break, Cassia is going to finish what is happening
with these Black Witch Trials of sixteen twenty. We have that,
and we have more paranormal stories coming up later. True
Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (01:02:30):
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with
my pre Halloween true crime mates Courtney Armstrong, who has
just had her hands live in the air big time,
and of course our body move in and listen.

Speaker 3 (01:02:48):
We've been talking about.

Speaker 2 (01:02:49):
Some scary things like the Black Witch Trials from yesteryear.
We have Casia Jones here with us. She hosts and
created the podcasts People Don't Do Ghosts, which is probably
slightly accurate because well, we know that I would be
the first to die in whatever said ghost movie is.
We already know that that's not even the movie, that's

(01:03:10):
like the opening credits, but just that you know, these
stories that you share are harrowing, and also then we'll
get to your personal one as well. So we were
knee deep in these free Salem witch trials. This is
seventy years prior, so going back in time, edge of
our seat, Sorry that we had to cut you off

(01:03:30):
with the commercial, but we are back and ready to
hear more.

Speaker 8 (01:03:35):
Yeah. So towards the end, right, they all describe all
these things that they've been doing, like they've been fucking
blood from the navel of children. They say that the
devil told them. Then one of them, Leonora's like no, no, no,
hold up, no, remember the devil told us don't harm children,
but actually harmed Christians. And then the Spaniards wanted to

(01:03:58):
portray these black witches and their leader, which is the
Black Devil as you know, children murdering, you know, Christian
sacrificing cannibals, and none of that was going over going
on in that country until they got there, right, Like,
nobody's murdering anybody, nobody was hurting anybody. It was these

(01:04:18):
black slaves, black witches, who made all this happen. And
so the Spaniards got them to confess, you know. So,
but before the which trial ends, they're like, okay, we're
actually not going to kill you, because keep in mind
these are also their slaves. They are helping them right,

(01:04:40):
they are property. So they're like, well, listen, we went
through all this because we need people to fear you.
We need you to be the fear that we all see.
We need your skin to be feared. We need your
hair to be feared. We need your voice to be feared,
because your songs are feared. We need you're dancing to

(01:05:02):
be feared. We need any rituals that you've been doing
from Africa that you brought here. We need everything about
you to be the booby Nan talk about yeah, talk
about evil, and that's exactly what they did. And they
don't kill them, right, So they make them confess to
all these things, and they're like, all right, you can

(01:05:26):
confess and we will not kill you, but you have
to say that you all did this on your own,
that this actually is the black Devil didn't make you
do it. You decided to do all this on your own. Well,
then here comes patriarchy again, right, because they let Cosmo
Negro go and they're like, you know what, yo, there
is a black devil, but hey, he's not he's not
the actual root of this. That man gets to go

(01:05:50):
get get off too, right.

Speaker 3 (01:05:53):
Right, it was all.

Speaker 8 (01:05:56):
It was all the black women.

Speaker 17 (01:05:57):
It was just them. So Maria Linda comply and she says, you.

Speaker 8 (01:06:01):
Know, I adored the demon and I am the witch.

Speaker 17 (01:06:05):
Polonia complies, and.

Speaker 8 (01:06:07):
It was said that she said that she did this
of her own free will. And all four of the
enslaved black wishes, which is, they petitioned for pardon and mercy.
The court agrees to use mercy, and the women were
sentenced to wear basically like a scarlet letter, right, like
a pentitular garb forever. And so just think of it
like the scarlet letter. And it was a robe of

(01:06:29):
clothing that lets the world know that they practiced in
religious hearsay. So they had to be enslaved, right, they
had to be feared, and then they had to wear
this robe. So not only is it like okay, we
hate your song, we d your voice, we ate your skin,
and we hit your dance at your hair. Let's make
it even worse, and let's put this robond so everybody

(01:06:50):
knows that this is what you did forever.

Speaker 3 (01:06:55):
Wow.

Speaker 8 (01:06:55):
So they're sentenced to jail, right, they're sentenced to jail,
but Leon gets one year because remember she sold out
everybody else. She's like, hey, these are the hobbies, but
I don't know like that. So she sells them out.

Speaker 17 (01:07:08):
She gets a year.

Speaker 8 (01:07:09):
The other ones get jailed, but then they are sentenced
to perpetual jail in the inquisition prison. But I mean
they're already in jail, they're already, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:07:19):
They're already slaves. Like, oh my gosh, these women trial,
what ending is it?

Speaker 8 (01:07:28):
They're like the perpetual perpetual in the road that they
have to wear.

Speaker 2 (01:07:34):
Oh my goodness, right, like a million degrees.

Speaker 8 (01:07:41):
Yeah, it's a million degrees, okay, And you know they
still made them work in the jail, chilling all day
in these No they're not.

Speaker 3 (01:07:50):
Yeah, they're not relaxing.

Speaker 8 (01:07:52):
Spots right right, And so witchcraft was the primary charge
against them and against mostly women are actually in that
jurisdiction and surrounding cities, and it would what it does
is just that's how the cultural practices of Africans became

(01:08:13):
seeing you know, they're they're singing, the dancing. I'm gonna
say our our singing, our dancing, our just ceremony. Right,
they were deemed as inherently demonic in nature. So it's like,
how do you make everybody hate somebody even if you're
not religious. You tell somebody they're with the devil.

Speaker 3 (01:08:34):
And I wonder how long that story was told generation
to generation to generation of Colombians after that, and if
they were like, oh, though, remember those black women they're
evil you know what I mean? Like, I wonder how
long that perpetuated? So interesting and what it's.

Speaker 8 (01:08:50):
Been sun into, right, because now it's very much like, oh,
black people feel exactly a people that you know the
right where we're angry, where you know we've pacticedo.

Speaker 4 (01:09:05):
That's the big.

Speaker 17 (01:09:05):
One, right right?

Speaker 3 (01:09:07):
Wow, this is this is really fascinating. This is true
Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true crime all the time.
I'm here with Stephanie. This is Body Courtney, and we
have a wonderful special guest. This is Cassia Jones. She's
the creator and producer of Black People Don't Do Ghosts.
It's a podcast exploring real paranormal encounters and the cultural

(01:09:29):
side of the supernatural in the black community. Now, Casilla,
let's talk about you. Now, I understand you're a seer.
What is that like? And it runs in your family
through your grandmother who you call nanny? Is that right?
How does that ability manifest?

Speaker 17 (01:09:44):
What does it mean, Well, it's all.

Speaker 8 (01:09:48):
It could be very subjective because some people who feel
that they are fears of see spirits, they see people
or as they see you know, they some people feel
that they are pike. You can they can see the future.
For me, my nanny, which is grandma, we say nanny
for grandmother. On my mom's side, my nanny could see spirits.

(01:10:11):
She could talk to spirits, and so could her mother,
my great grandmother, my great nanny, which I never met.

Speaker 17 (01:10:17):
She passed away.

Speaker 8 (01:10:19):
My mom could too, but she was terrified of it,
and so she didn't even allow me to talk to
her about it.

Speaker 17 (01:10:25):
I had to call nanny and talk to Nanny about.

Speaker 8 (01:10:28):
It because my mom felt like if you even talked
to her, she might see something and she didn't want
to go there.

Speaker 3 (01:10:34):
Interesting, Yeah, she was scared.

Speaker 4 (01:10:36):
The first thing.

Speaker 2 (01:10:37):
I love it. I'm so interested.

Speaker 3 (01:10:39):
Stephanie's all in.

Speaker 2 (01:10:41):
I want to be a seer.

Speaker 4 (01:10:43):
She does.

Speaker 2 (01:10:43):
I'm not. I don't have any seeing ability, but I
like the idea of it, and.

Speaker 3 (01:10:47):
I believe I would be too scared. I'm not scared.
I'm scared to ask a question.

Speaker 2 (01:10:53):
That's something I'm not scared about anything.

Speaker 5 (01:10:55):
Okay, So I by the way, I was so excited
when I had seen that you were coming on the
show and the title of your podcast black people don't
do ghosts.

Speaker 4 (01:11:04):
So I did, as Stephanie knows, about.

Speaker 2 (01:11:07):
A million, maybe a million, three thousand, Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:11:11):
Literally years of a show called My ghost Story. And
I was laughing to myself, Oh my god, I love
that show.

Speaker 2 (01:11:19):
Recordy did every episode, every episode eighty thousand, five hundred
million episodes before I met her, and so we met.

Speaker 8 (01:11:28):
Actually, there's no black people on this show.

Speaker 4 (01:11:30):
Well that's okay, So this is where I'm leaning.

Speaker 3 (01:11:32):
I was laughing to my just this.

Speaker 5 (01:11:34):
Yeah, I was laughing when you said, it's all these
white people and on their farms, and I'm thinking, like
in the Eda Bay, how many snowy farm scenes with
these white people from Kansas And there were so much
no black people on our show. That a guy I
worked with, Mike O. Dare, who's fabulous. Yeah, he went
on to create a show called Ghosts in the Hood,

(01:11:58):
which was the opp yeah, to rectify. But anyway, I
just I love, I love that you are doing this
because you are so right.

Speaker 3 (01:12:11):
Yeah, it's interesting and it's even in your hyme. There's
not a lot of black women in your crime. It's
not apathetic.

Speaker 2 (01:12:18):
There's also you know, listen, there's a lot of white
male killers.

Speaker 3 (01:12:23):
For whatever that's worth. For whatever that's worth, we're going
to go in like.

Speaker 2 (01:12:27):
Status instead, you know, like stats. That's not a great one.
That is not a great Yeah. By the way, a
thousand years ago, I used to work in dating shows,
in dating shows, like blind dating type shows, and it
was always the white girl that was like, and by
the way, I speak for myself, this would be me
on that dating show. Really, yeah, that sounds great, like

(01:12:48):
the Last Man Standing in Dumb Police. But it was
always it was always the black girl that was like,
I call bullshit right away, I call BS right now,
this is BS. I can call it instead. And it
was laugh out loud because like it was always just
something about this doesn't feel right, if it was a
ruse or like some sort of like a gag, and

(01:13:11):
it was the greatest reaction. So you know, I don't
know what that says, but saying it out loud.

Speaker 4 (01:13:18):
Okay, I'm dying.

Speaker 5 (01:13:20):
I taha mentioned but didn't give any details.

Speaker 4 (01:13:23):
What happened in college.

Speaker 5 (01:13:24):
There was an experience something an object moved am I
getting any details right.

Speaker 17 (01:13:30):
Yes, yes, So.

Speaker 8 (01:13:35):
To anyone if you have somebody in your life who
was a negative, you know negative. In this instance, it
was a very horrible boyfriend that I had that was
abusive in college, and everything in my life started just
going downhill. As soon as that guy entered my life,
I was like failing every class. I was barely eating,

(01:13:57):
like it was just not me. Everything was just bad.
It's like very bad. And anyways, so lock story short,
my mom used to give us these gag Christmas gifts
in our stockings, even when we were adults, and she
would put little kid toys in there. And that was
the time around where like the movie The Bugs Life
was out and all those cool animated films that come

(01:14:20):
out that were supposed to be for kids, but we were.

Speaker 17 (01:14:22):
Totally into them.

Speaker 8 (01:14:24):
And she bought me a bunch of those little Bugs
Life figurine and one figurine every single day for like
a week when I would come back to my apartment.
My apartment, we all had locks on our doors. So
I shared an apartment on campus, not a dorm room
and apartment, so it was a three bedroom apartment and

(01:14:45):
all of us would lock our doors whenever we left
because I mean, I don't know you, right. Whenever I
would come back after I was when I was dating
this like psychopath, one of my figurines would always be
knocked down. Keep in mind this was a like Calse Domingaz.
They were building the stadium that they have now, so
there was like field mice everywhere, and so I'm just thinking,

(01:15:09):
oh gross, I'd probably have a mouth in here. And
no one night, I was very just like again, didn't
go to class, crying, just horrible, trying to think of
how I can get away from this person. And all
of a sudden, I just started. The room got even

(01:15:29):
darker than it already was. I sleep in complete darkness.

Speaker 17 (01:15:32):
Like black.

Speaker 8 (01:15:33):
I don't have a light on anywhere, okay, so it
was so dark in my room, nothing was on. And
then all of a sudden, the room got hot, and
I mean my hot, like a sauna, and I started
dripping sweat down my skin, and I knew something was
in the room. So I got very quiet, and I

(01:15:56):
looked from underneath the cover because I was so that
did actually put a little bit of fear into me.
So I did put the cover just a little bit
over my eyes because I wanted to see what was there,
but I was also kind of terrified. Anyways, I see it.
It's this huge figure. It's almost to the ceiling of
my room, and it has a huge, a long case

(01:16:20):
with a big collar.

Speaker 2 (01:16:21):
I gotta god, the collar is so scary.

Speaker 3 (01:16:25):
And the big figure wait, yeah.

Speaker 7 (01:16:27):
This is.

Speaker 8 (01:16:29):
And the figure is facing all those little figuring and
picking them up and letting them fall back down.

Speaker 11 (01:16:36):
Oh.

Speaker 8 (01:16:36):
And I did like a little whimper, and it turns
its head just, you know, to the side to look
at me to see if I'm looking.

Speaker 17 (01:16:46):
And I knew I couldn't let it.

Speaker 8 (01:16:48):
Know that I see it, and tears were just falling,
and I was terrified. But my nanny told me a
prayer to pray when an evil and tea is near you,
and I just was saying it in my head and
just barely whispering it over and over and over, and
I just closed my eyes.

Speaker 17 (01:17:08):
And that was that.

Speaker 3 (01:17:09):
What's the prayer? I mean, what's the Can you give
the fastest prayer ever?

Speaker 8 (01:17:15):
I use this prayer every single night everything night.

Speaker 2 (01:17:17):
Oh my goodness, I want the prayer.

Speaker 3 (01:17:20):
I'm scared. I lost my way. I don't know where
I'm at. I don't know what I'm supposed to say. Now,
I do, I do, but I have to, like, I
have to say thank you to her. I don't even
know what to say. I'm so scared. Yeah, I'm so great.
Can you please text us the prayer and I'll say
it up.

Speaker 4 (01:17:36):
We're going to text the prayer. I will can't come back.

Speaker 6 (01:17:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:17:40):
When I was thought see her, I didn't know it
was like demonically scary. I like I was thinking, like,
I haven't crossed over to the afterlife quite yet.

Speaker 5 (01:17:48):
Yes, and listen, anyone who wants to hear, and everyone
should be hearing.

Speaker 4 (01:17:52):
Black people don't do ghosts.

Speaker 5 (01:17:54):
Streaming on Spotify, Apple Music, everywhere you get your podcasts.

Speaker 4 (01:17:58):
Casilla Jones, we really hope you're going to be.

Speaker 5 (01:18:00):
Back because this was awesome and a little bit terrifying.

Speaker 4 (01:18:04):
And stick around.

Speaker 5 (01:18:05):
We have more sugarun tonight.

Speaker 2 (01:18:17):
true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker and I'm
here with Courtney Armstrong and body move in and we're.

Speaker 3 (01:18:28):
All a little scared.

Speaker 2 (01:18:29):
So Halloween is upon us, and by the way, we
are wishing you a great one. Tomorrow, so please double down,
have some fun, please be safe. But all these scary
stories are getting the best of me. I don't know
that I'm on board, so big huge things. Of course,
to Cassia Jones for telling us for scary tales. Have
either of you had a ghost experience personally?

Speaker 3 (01:18:53):
No?

Speaker 2 (01:18:54):
No, no, I have not either me.

Speaker 4 (01:18:57):
But I believe.

Speaker 2 (01:18:59):
I totally imagine that that's accurate and true. And I
have several people that I love deeply that have had experiences,
so I have no reason not to believe. But I
personally have not had that experience, although I wish I would.
Would you right now? Not tonight?

Speaker 3 (01:19:16):
Not whatever?

Speaker 10 (01:19:17):
You're weird?

Speaker 2 (01:19:18):
Detroit Knight is what is it called again? Devils tomorrow?

Speaker 5 (01:19:24):
But I do have to say I never have personally,
But on that show which talking about my ghost story,
all of them have video or audio quote evidence, and
it was it was compelling, And this would be even people.

Speaker 4 (01:19:40):
Not like I'm out to be a ghost ghost hunter.

Speaker 5 (01:19:43):
It's like I thought I had squirrels in my yard,
so I set up this camera and w.

Speaker 4 (01:19:49):
Tf is that?

Speaker 5 (01:19:51):
So people who had like incredibly believable this was absolutely
their truth.

Speaker 4 (01:19:57):
But anyway, interesting, maybe big world out there there truth too.

Speaker 2 (01:20:01):
That's a key difference, right, whether it is true or
is their truth. I guess that is forever the line.
I haven't personally had an experience, but I am a believer.
I'm a non seer believer in seers.

Speaker 9 (01:20:15):
Yeah that I believe it. I would.

Speaker 15 (01:20:18):
I would believe what she told me and the details
that she went into, but yeah, I don't. Luckily, when
she mentioned this, I'm like, thank God I don't see
these things, because I don't think I could have sat
in that bed quietly if I see some sort of
weird demon things.

Speaker 3 (01:20:31):
No way I would. I would Stephanie scream.

Speaker 2 (01:20:38):
That any intention you have to read to immediately reach
for your cell phone and goal nine one one because
that that scream is not going nowhere. You're left for
dead baby under that cover in a very real way,
and even having the fortitude to know to look away,
I'd be like, let's look I to eye and suddenly
your soul is stolen.

Speaker 9 (01:20:58):
Ouch.

Speaker 2 (01:20:59):
I don't necessarily know that I believe in all of it,
but I do believe. I mean, I believe her story obviously,
but it's so scary.

Speaker 3 (01:21:09):
Let's go to a chalk.

Speaker 12 (01:21:12):
Hi I'm a life from Pennsylvania again, so sorry about
the earlier call of my two year old, but in
honor of Halloween, I'm calling with my own ghost story
since we're sharing scary stories this week. Sam and Adam,
I'm sorry this will hi be wrong. I'll try to
keep it short.

Speaker 17 (01:21:26):
You'll have to edit, I'm sure.

Speaker 12 (01:21:27):
But I grew up in Cashtown, which is a tiny
little town outside of Gettysburg, Pennsylvania. My childhood home was
a Civil warhouse and it was about a mile from
the Cashtown Inn, which is where generally and the Confederates
had their home base leading up to before they marched
into Gettysburg for the war. So we had a lot

(01:21:48):
of supernatural experiences growing up. We would have lights turn
on and off on their own. One in particular, we
had a ghost in the attic and he would make
his appearance whenever my dad would travel for work. So
my parents were connected to the room with the attic door,
and my mom would be in bed and hear bootsteps

(01:22:09):
coming down the attic and this light in the room
the attic door opened into a turn on. So there's
one particular time it just kept going on all night.
She'd get up, turn it off. Well, a while later,
I'd come back on, get up, turn it off, et cetera.
So after probably four or five times of this, she
finally got tired of it and said, would you please
turn that light off? The light turned itself off and

(01:22:31):
she heard bootsteps going back up the attic. So when
I was off in college, my little brother took over
what we called the haunted room. But when you're in
a family of six kids and there are not six bedrooms,
you take whatever room you can get to have your
own room. So he had an exercise bike in his
room and he woke up one night and the pedals
were just going all by themselves. Flash forward a few years.
My boyfriend at the time husband now, came to my parents'

(01:22:53):
house with me for the first time. For believe it
was Thanksgiving our Christmas, and we're telling him all these
ghost stories, all the stuff that happened over the year,
and he was skeptical, like, I don't know. I'm not
saying I don't believe you, but I'm just not so
sure about this. Out of nowhere, a mason jar flew
off the top of a cover. It was not sitting
on the edge, No one was up around walking. There's

(01:23:13):
no reason that Mason Jar should have fallen, flew off
the cover, smashed the floor where he was sitting. We
all looked at each other and he goes, Okay, I
think I'd believe you.

Speaker 17 (01:23:23):
Now.

Speaker 12 (01:23:23):
We have friendly ghosts. Nothing really bad ever happened, just
kind of cool experiences that we had in this old
Civil War house growing up Chaugh. There is my Halloween
ghost story for everyone.

Speaker 2 (01:23:35):
Mom high five on the story, and that was like
a really good one story.

Speaker 3 (01:23:40):
She said it was a friendly ghost. He's throwing mason
jars around. I don't know, Joy.

Speaker 2 (01:23:45):
He was trying to communicate because he had a non
believer around the table, and he's like not going to
stand for that. He needed to, you know, shout from
the rooftops. You think that was a Mason Jar ghost
could possibly be bad?

Speaker 3 (01:23:59):
I would have.

Speaker 2 (01:24:00):
I think most ghosts, if not all ghosts, are probably
just happy and want to be in some sort of connection.

Speaker 3 (01:24:07):
I want to go home. I was raised Catholic, and
the way that we kind of my mom would tell
us is that ghosts were in purgatory, so they're in
between you know, the living in the heaven, right, Yeah,
and they're angry. Why are they angry?

Speaker 2 (01:24:24):
Maybe they wanted to.

Speaker 9 (01:24:25):
Go They want to go to They're not.

Speaker 3 (01:24:27):
Resting yet, that's all. They're not that fired yet.

Speaker 5 (01:24:30):
That's very that's very purgatory, which is also how I
grew up. But yeah, it is, you know. The my
husband so he and they will. Both of his parents
are doctors, like ones in psychology and the other is physics.
They're very serious folks. And they had a ghost and

(01:24:51):
they have no reason to like put on a show.
They're like, oh, yeah, the ghosts that lived there in Baltimore,
this old house and it was in their living room only,
and the ghost liked boys and not men. So wait,
my husband Wade when he was little and nothing, but
then it was dark, ominous, terrible feeling and weird stuff

(01:25:14):
even when he grew into a man, and always my
father in law.

Speaker 3 (01:25:17):
And they did not move, No way. I didn't know this.

Speaker 2 (01:25:22):
So they stayed and lived in a house had an
angry ghost in it.

Speaker 4 (01:25:26):
Yeah I didn't.

Speaker 11 (01:25:27):
I don't know.

Speaker 9 (01:25:28):
If I would, that's where I would.

Speaker 2 (01:25:30):
You would lose me if it was a helpful ghost
that maybe like tended to my launch and made my
bed like saran wrap in the re freezer.

Speaker 3 (01:25:38):
I totally so. I don't like men either, so it's welcoming.

Speaker 2 (01:25:45):
You know, I grew up in Lake ron Kankama, and
you know there's a The lure of Lake ron Konkoma,
Long Island is that there's a lake and that Princess
ron Konkoma. She she died and every year she basically
takes another young boy, and a young boy drowns in

(01:26:06):
the lake. This is the folklord that we kind of
grew up with. But there is a pretty steady track
of info to support that.

Speaker 4 (01:26:15):
Lakes are so scary in general.

Speaker 5 (01:26:16):
I actually I love them, but they are They're so
glassy and always waiting for hand to come out of it.

Speaker 4 (01:26:22):
I don't know, Jason, that's.

Speaker 3 (01:26:27):
Why you're scared of it. Because of that, Jason, the
water and at the lake Crystal Lake Camp scary.

Speaker 9 (01:26:35):
So scary.

Speaker 15 (01:26:37):
How far were you from Amityville? Did you ever see
the Amityville Horror?

Speaker 7 (01:26:40):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (01:26:40):
Yeah, we used to be there in Amityville. It was
a little bit further. It's like thirty five minutes away
from where I grew up. But yeah, we would drive
by to see the weird windows that look like the
eyes of the house. And by the way, that was
based on a true story of Mayhem and even Mary's
graves that I.

Speaker 3 (01:26:55):
Was tell that FOD guys about. Apparently Mary like slaughtered
her family.

Speaker 2 (01:27:00):
My brother actually texted me this today, my brother Rich
because they used to go party at Mary's grave. He
actually stole the grave, don't tell Yeah, like everybody did.
It was like a long island like Ronkonkoma thing. Carrie
apparently assassinated her family and with a butcher knife, and
then she lures over the area and anybody who goes
to her grave, they're like, all of a sudden, they

(01:27:23):
see blinking lights like almost a car lights, but there's
no car there, and that means Mary's coming for you.

Speaker 9 (01:27:30):
No, okay, this is not a good episode.

Speaker 2 (01:27:34):
For Yeah, can I go up my way in best?

Speaker 9 (01:27:42):
Okay?

Speaker 14 (01:27:42):
All right, anything, Hi guys, this is Ava. I wanted
to also share my favorite scary movie, and well, this
one isn't my favorite, but it's definitely the scariest movie
I've ever seen. It's called Her Hereditary Arioster and I
saw it when I was a senior in high school.
I was seventeen, and even at that age, I was.

Speaker 12 (01:28:01):
So scared that when I got home from.

Speaker 14 (01:28:03):
The theater at night, I had to sleep in bed
with my mom.

Speaker 17 (01:28:06):
Because I was scared below in my bed.

Speaker 14 (01:28:08):
So highly recommend if you want that feeling.

Speaker 3 (01:28:12):
That's so sweet though she had to get in bed
with mom and seven would that?

Speaker 2 (01:28:17):
Would?

Speaker 3 (01:28:18):
I get it too? That movie is very weary.

Speaker 15 (01:28:21):
I'm trying to remember the details of that one. I
saw it so long and don't ask me. I just
told you I don't remember because I remember, like Sam
and Adam both know this one pretty well. But Tony
Collette was in it.

Speaker 3 (01:28:31):
Yeah, it sounds horrible, is I remember the music. I
didn't like the music. It was like too loud or something.
But it was scared.

Speaker 2 (01:28:37):
Okay, Like, have you guys watched Blair Witch anytime recently?
That one still holds them to a little at the end.
That was like a petrifying tale. Also, Mber reading that while.

Speaker 9 (01:28:49):
With the footage and it's so funny.

Speaker 15 (01:28:51):
I thought about yesterday when you were talking about our
True Crime and Chill Pick, because there it's all body
cam footage and I was like, Oh, that's the other
film that kind of was all done there, which yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:29:01):
Which was actually pretty sohead of its time.

Speaker 3 (01:29:03):
We should remind people about true Griman Chif. Yeah, I
wasn't here that night.

Speaker 2 (01:29:06):
I had that tall because we're going to do arrowing
this doc Yeah, we're going to do.

Speaker 3 (01:29:12):
A Perfect Neighbor on Netflix. And it's all it's like
an hour and a half. It's not very long.

Speaker 2 (01:29:18):
I've seen it.

Speaker 3 (01:29:19):
I've seen it last Weekend Indian and I watch it
and it's all bodycam footage and it tells the tale
of kind of like a Karen neighbor who is like
upset by the kids, you know, playing around her house,
and she just keeps calling the cops over and over
and over again. And so the whole documentary is told

(01:29:40):
through this bodycam footage, and it's very well done. But
I'm telling you how sad it is and infuriating it
is because because it's all body cam footage, it's not
some abstract like idea of what happened, right, You're actually
seeing like raw emotion and and a horrific tragedy played

(01:30:02):
out like right before your eyes. And then I'm not
going to tell you, but then at the end you
just get so mad and it just rows you up
a little bit. It's infuriating. I'm not going to eat
a little bit infuriating and it's really good and I
can't wait to discuss the details with everybody. And if
you have seen it, give us a call eight at

(01:30:23):
eight thirty one crime When we do our trym when
are what day are we going to do it Toahan?
You know the dates? I'm like lost in the sauce
in my head with the dates.

Speaker 2 (01:30:30):
We're going to do this.

Speaker 15 (01:30:32):
No, no, no, but we're going to do it on
Wednesday of next week, so we'll whack.

Speaker 3 (01:30:39):
Get your thoughts together, write down your notes as you're
watching the documentary, leave us a talk back and give
us a call whatever you want to do. I really
want to hear what you guys have to say about
this documentary because it is harrowing and it is crime really.

Speaker 9 (01:30:53):
One yeah, definitely crime related. And I saw it.

Speaker 15 (01:30:57):
I watched it last night and I told body a
little bit, but I'm not gonna give anything away, but
it was so heavy and so emotional I had to stop.
It's rare that I have to like stop them, like
I can't watch this, I need to stop for a minute.

Speaker 9 (01:31:08):
And then of course I went down the.

Speaker 15 (01:31:09):
Road of looking at Frogger videos or equally it's scary,
but I went back to it, but it's really it's
a it's excellent, but it's really hard to watch some
of it, So just be.

Speaker 3 (01:31:21):
Prepared surprising how well the story is pulled through this
bodycam footage because you really understand what's going on as
you're watching it. There's no narrator, there's no like ten
years ago, you know, I was on Facebook and you know, I'm.

Speaker 4 (01:31:35):
So excited to watch this, Courtney.

Speaker 3 (01:31:37):
It's so it's so interesting. And I know you you
and you like body cam footage, don't you, Courtney love it?

Speaker 5 (01:31:45):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:31:45):
Yeah, so you're really going to enjoy this. I can't
wait to hear what you have to say about it.
So yeah, that's going to be on Wednesday for our
true Crimin Chill segment, A Perfect Neighbor on Netflix. Please
watch it.

Speaker 9 (01:31:55):
It's very good.

Speaker 15 (01:31:56):
Yeah, okay, perfect, Yeah, between Halloween and Trickishry with everyone
tomorrow and then.

Speaker 3 (01:32:01):
If you want to be scared tonight, watch the Frogging.

Speaker 5 (01:32:04):
Watch go look about No look frogging.

Speaker 3 (01:32:09):
Your atticts and your walls.

Speaker 15 (01:32:11):
And I seriously hadn't seen I didn't realize how popular
it was and how many cases there are, but there's.

Speaker 2 (01:32:17):
So many cases, more than you would ever imagine when.

Speaker 15 (01:32:20):
You see how they're living. Like I literally did like
a check around my home. I started looking. I'm like, okay,
can someone go there? Can they look here? It's it's
really freaky and scary but.

Speaker 5 (01:32:29):
Interesting for my dogs today, Like you know, dogs look
at things or perk their ears and I'm like, what's
up rover like is now?

Speaker 4 (01:32:37):
I think there's someone in that in my walls that
they're reacting to.

Speaker 9 (01:32:41):
Oh god, I don't know what's worse having someone living in.

Speaker 15 (01:32:43):
My walls, like the Frogger situation or what Casia was
telling us, wake up to see like a demon with
a French coat with yeah there was one Oh yeah,
what would you pick the human because I can at
least call the police and they can get it out.

Speaker 9 (01:32:57):
The spirit things, Yeah, out of our troll.

Speaker 3 (01:33:03):
It there was one frogor you have like night visions
like green like you know, I'm terrifying. And this arm
came out of a kitchen cabinet and yes, and it
was a girl, was a woman and she like hopped
out of this kitchen cabinet on the drounter you did, I.

Speaker 15 (01:33:20):
Saw that and then she goes in the refrigerator and
gets something out.

Speaker 3 (01:33:26):
Crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:33:27):
It's so scary you have to talk about, like a
crock pot or something. We're going to start to hot
cooking segments starting next week. Courtney's very good at them.
I need some come her food in Sandy. All I
want to do is eat my low fat cottage cheese
and rice cakes. My mouth hurts from eating so many
of those this week. But listen, we're going to be

(01:33:47):
back on Sunday. First of all, have a great Halloween,
go home, but please be safe. And then on Sunday,
Joseph Scott Morgan talking all things forensics with us.

Speaker 3 (01:33:57):
This is true crime tonight. We love you, Be safe
and happy Halloween. Bye bro,

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