Unraveling the Evidence: Two Decapitation Cases and the Kohberger Forensic Dump

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,
and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 3 (00:20):
We are on iHeartRadio and we are talking true crime
all the time. It's Sunday, November ninth, and Stephanie is out,
but luckily it is Scientific Sunday, so we are joined
by our absolute favorite forensic investigator who at this point
needs no introduction but deserves the biggest one. We have

(00:41):
hosts of the hit podcast Bodybags, Professor Joseph Scott Morgan.

Speaker 2 (00:46):
How are you this evening?

Speaker 4 (00:49):
Hi there, it's going to be with you guys. Tonight
my favorite night of the week because it is Scientific
Sunday and I am with me pals. Good to be
here with you.

Speaker 5 (01:00):
We are so glad that you are here and we
can hear you and you sound good.

Speaker 2 (01:05):
Yes, absolutely, there we go. Well, listen, we have a modern.

Speaker 3 (01:12):
Modern electronics are are quite an amazing thing. Also amazing
is tonight we have an absolutely stacked night of headlines.
So listen, We're going to be getting into more of
the news that happened over the weekend in detail tomorrow,
but we want to take a moment.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
To update just a couple of things.

Speaker 3 (01:31):
All of the reported missing victims in the ups plane
crash that happened near Louisville Airport they have been found.
The total number of fatalities is fourteen people. Oh yeah,
and we'll some more details.

Speaker 5 (01:46):
I saw some you know, alternate views of the crash
that were posted, you know, like different people that had
filmed it. Man, I'm surprised it's not more. I mean,
this it's tragic what happened. But man, this was a
fireball and it took out buildings like hangars and stuff
you know that people were in.

Speaker 3 (02:04):
Yeah, very soon. It was really really intense. So we
will have more details on that tomorrow. Plus Sean de
dey Coombs. He was allegedly spotted drinking homemade prison alcohol,
little thing called hooch, and we will get into those
details this week as well. But tonight we have an

(02:24):
awful lot on our plate. We're going to be unpacking
the It's pretty wild. This murder child that's going on
in Las Vegas. Okay, get this. A man has allegedly
been decapitated by his ex girlfriend who is now married
to his son.

Speaker 2 (02:40):
So we'll have the.

Speaker 3 (02:41):
Details of that and there must be a little something
in the water, I'm not sure, because we have a
second decapitation story this evening, and that took place in Staten,
Alan last month, and Joseph Scott Morgan will be breaking
down the forensics of that scene.

Speaker 2 (02:56):
They're a little.

Speaker 3 (02:57):
Intense understatement, and later in the show, Joseph Scott Morgan
Professor Morgan Professor will use his title and will be
teaching us all about how forensic investigators analyzed blood spatter
and will break down how it applies to a new
massive forensic dump in the Idaho student murder case.

Speaker 2 (03:19):
Right, So it's a full it's a full.

Speaker 3 (03:21):
Dog at tonight. Body, why don't you start us off
with what's going on in Las Vegas?

Speaker 5 (03:26):
Yeah, my little area of the country. You know, we
got this trial going on. It's and it's making a
lot of headlines. It's making it's pretty insane. So this
is the murder trial of forty seven year old Las
Vegas person Devin Michaels. She's the accused person. She's she's
accused of decapitating her forty six year old boyfriend, Jonathan

(03:47):
will Lett. All right, and the trial has started and
entering its second week. Prosecutors alleged Devin killed Jonathan, the
father of her two biological children, by the way, so
she's got two kids with this guy and twenty nine
year old Devier will Let so she could continue a
life with Devier, the son, the son of devil of God.

(04:12):
There's so many names in this, the son of Jonathan. Okay,
So she's she's secretly dating basically her son's boyfriend, and
she kills her boyfriend so that her and the son
can live a life. And it's it's pretty crazy. So
she initially she pled guilty to this crime. Oh and
then she started kind of saying, no, I didn't do this,

(04:32):
it wasn't me, and the judge kind of like took
pity on her let her withdraw her plea. So now
she's entered. So now she's entered this not guilty plea
because she recanted and she claims her innocence, and her
defense argues that Devier, her now her step son now
turned husband, could have done the murder. So she's turning
her back on her new husband, which is the son

(04:56):
of the acute the victim, and now her husband and
saying he us have done it. It's kind of a
why she was crying in court. It was it was wild.
It was wild.

Speaker 6 (05:07):
Let me clarify because it's absolutely insane. This woman started
dating and Jonathan Jonathan is her peer. While she was
dating Jonathan, he had a nineteen year old son from
a previous relationship. And while this nineteen year old son
was just like around her his father's relationship, she started

(05:28):
dating him and they started having an intimate relationship while
she was in a relationship with his father, and this
was completely secret. He didn't like, the father didn't know
right cut to now more recently they get married.

Speaker 5 (05:41):
Yep, but he they're.

Speaker 6 (05:43):
Claiming that this relationship between Devin, who's the accused, and
the son was for like medical insurance purposes, tax reasons whatever.
But everyone's kind of like, well, we saw the receipts.
We saw that you guys were like sending intimate photos
to each other when he was nineteen and you were
years older than him.

Speaker 5 (06:01):
So it's just a whole it is a whole bidness.
So they alleged Devon she's the accused of killing Jonathan
on the seventh of August, and then They arrested her
one week later on August fifteenth, after discovering evidence that
leaned her to the scene. Prosecutors are claiming that Devlin
beat Jonathan with a wooden stick, decapitated him, and poured
bleach and ammonia on his body to destroy evidence. Jonathan's

(06:26):
head has not been recovered and is believed to have
been thrown in like a trash bin and picked up
by garbage services like, oh my gosh, terrible. So she
shared two daughters under the age of thirteen with this victory.
By the way, so she has two kids with this guy.
But again, as you pointed out, she later married Jonathan's son, Debiere.

(06:50):
It's and now she's saying he did it. And now
she's saying he did it. But when investigators arrived on scene,
they said that the body of our of the victim here, Jonathan,
was like smoking. And since we have Joseph here, it
would be very remiss of me not to ask him.
Have you ever seen anything like this, Joseph, where a
body was smoking from these chemicals?

Speaker 4 (07:12):
Well, let's see, have I ever seen it smoking? Well?
Spoken as a result, no, no, no, Now being in
all serious, where you have an application to the body
of a chemical mixture. Now we'll tell you this. From
what I'm understanding, the mixture base is essentially bleach chlorine, okay,

(07:33):
as as well as ammonia. Now that in and of itself,
just so that people understand, if you've ever heard of
chlorine gas, yes, chloramine. Chloramine is what this creates. H
and it does burn within the body. So the gas

(07:55):
itself when you this mixture, when you you will, like
I've seen people that have been around this event. We've
done dissections of the airway and you can see these
changes on the meucoid surfaces of the lungs the airway.
It's a horrible way to die. My suspicion is is

(08:18):
that she was throwing a bunch of stuff against the
wall here. I would like if there were other well, yeah,
what other elements we're in here other than what we're
hearing about the chlorine and the ammonia, And to find
out there was something else. I've never seen it. I've
actually been exposed to the gas actually in an accident

(08:38):
of laboratory years ago, and it's horrible. But I would
like to know if there's another element here that's generating
what they're referring to as smokes coming off of the body,
just to kind of understand that. I'm hoping that during
the course of the trial that we might hear from

(08:59):
maybe an arson person or at least somebody in drug
chemistry to give us a tider picture. I'm hoping they
sampled all of this out there and took those samples,
because that's one of the most important things we do.

Speaker 5 (09:10):
At to seem sure that's right.

Speaker 3 (09:13):
This is true crime tonight, We're on iHeartRadio. I'm Courtney Armstrong,
so lucky to be here with my buddy Boddy move
In and forensic death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan. And I
forgot to say earlier that producer Taha is also oh yeah,
how hard yes, And so in his place is associate

(09:34):
producer Avia Kaplan, who weighed in with some of the
details earlier.

Speaker 2 (09:38):
So that is that is the lay of the land here.

Speaker 3 (09:40):
But Joseph, speaking of the lay of the land, it's
obviously so important, as you said, to gather everything in
the immediacy of the crime scene, because once it's gone,
it's gone. Do people in your experience have you witnessed
people trying to use sort of a hodgepodge of whatever
they have in the house, and this case lags pneumonia

(10:01):
to try and think we'll get rid of it or
what would cross process?

Speaker 5 (10:05):
Really good question.

Speaker 4 (10:06):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. People will and it's that's
a very and I think that goes without saying. Anybody's
got a brain in their head knows that it's not
safe some of these some of these, some of these
elements just stand alone are not safe to have. But
when proportionally, when you start mixing these things together, you're
going to get a very nasty stew perhaps. So yeah,

(10:30):
I've seen this happen before. I've seen people try to
dissolve bodies with acid, and of course people use lime
when they're burying bodies many times because they think that
that speeds the process of breaking a body down. They
also think that it retards the smell as well, and
so you will see that. So yeah, I've seen any

(10:52):
number of these cases where people try to essentially make
the body vanish everything from chemicals to uh, the train
saws to you know, to fire. So yeah, and people
want to finish much distance as they can. They the
problem is because they just they come ill prepared they
don't understand well where we really catch them.

Speaker 5 (11:14):
This is kind of a weird coincidence, but when I
was a senior in high school, a chlorine like somebody
one of the students built like a chlorine bomb. This
happened in nineteen ninety one at Dane Hills High School
where I went to high school. And if you're out
there listening, you remember this. And everyone got evacuated and
the whole mech teacher, I'll never forget. She permanently ruined

(11:37):
her vocal cords. Like this is no joke, Like her
vocal cords were permanently ruined. She took like a whole
semester off because it was terrible, And when she came back,
she had to have a little microphone so that her
students could hear her. She came back, that's it's terrible,
absolutely terrible. So I know exactly what you're talking about,
this smoke, because I experienced it, Like thank god, I
you know, I wasn't around, but I mean I was

(11:59):
at school when it happen, So I mean, it is
very dangerous to mix these chemicals together, as you know,
And apparently she thought it would we dispose of the body.

Speaker 4 (12:09):
Somehow chlorine itself is just the gas alone is the
basis for some chemical weapons. I think that it's even
loosely associated with mustard gas from not mistake God Real,
And there's certainly chlorine gas out there that has been
used as a chemical agent and war. That's how dangerous
this stuff is. And if she's just kind of, you know,

(12:32):
blindly going through this thing and trying to get rid
of the but there's no telling what she grabbed from
under the counter and there was.

Speaker 6 (12:40):
Yeah, I mean, in that spirit, it's not even just
the chemicals where she's just like taking whatever she has
and throwing them at this poor.

Speaker 7 (12:47):
Man allegedly because not only.

Speaker 6 (12:51):
Is he decapitated, but the medical examiner testified in court
that he suffered injuries from two distinct cutting tools. So
she thinks in niche there was a knife involved and
then a power saw, So she's using chemical the knife
of power saw. And interestingly, the police crimes scene analysts
testified that the investigators photographed two swords living lying on

(13:15):
Devin's living room floor, So this is the accused woman
two swords lying on her floor, but they never tested
them for DNA or blood.

Speaker 7 (13:21):
Resident is using.

Speaker 5 (13:24):
Okay, So there's a decapitated man all right in the closet,
wrapped in a blanket, and there's two swords. Who has swords?
By the way, there's two swords laying in the living
room floor of this woman's house, and they photographed them,
but they did not test them for blood for real. Interesting, Okay,

(13:45):
So of course the defense is hopping right on that.
If I get murdered in Las Vegas, I want somebody
else to do my investigation. Please, Joseph, I need somebody
that you have my back.

Speaker 4 (13:55):
Working on the remains out in the desert as well.
Go out.

Speaker 5 (14:01):
Oh, we have got to talk about that at some point.

Speaker 4 (14:05):
That's insane. Yeah, there's a lot happening in Vegas.

Speaker 2 (14:08):
What's going on?

Speaker 5 (14:10):
Somebody come help me? Like, I can't. I can't be
the I got here on my own. I can't be
raw dogging it out here by myself, like, I need
some help. So, but the head has not been recovered,
and the doctor Yagi, he's the medical examiner. He said
the coroner's office could only rule this death as a homicide,
not specifically the exact manner or sequence of fatal injuries

(14:30):
because they're missing maybe the piece that will tell them
exactly what happened to this victim. And his name is Jonathan.
The attorney for her Devlin Devin.

Speaker 2 (14:41):
Sorry.

Speaker 5 (14:42):
She questioned whether Devon could have physically moved one hundred
and seventy pound body all by herself. Prosecutors countered that
with female staff in the corner's office routinely handled bodies
of similar weights on their own, right, right, Joseph, that's true, right, yeah,
especially if you just done, you're adrenaline pumping.

Speaker 4 (15:03):
Absolute one hundred and seventy pounds is a walk in
the park when when your adrenals are firing and you're motivated.
Now your survivor literally survival has kicked in because look,
she's already demonstrating she's trying to rendered down the Skuy's body, right,
a guy that she allegedly loved and cared for at
one time. She's willing to desecrate his remains with not

(15:25):
only edge weapons but also chemicals. Trust me, she can
move one hundred and seventy pound body. I don't think
that that's that that's beyond reason.

Speaker 3 (15:34):
And you have all of our trust and listen, when
we come back, we have if you believe it, another
decapitation case in the headlines.

Speaker 2 (15:43):
This is out of Staten Island. Keep here True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 5 (15:56):
Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we're
talking true crime all the time. I'm Boddy move And and
I'm here with Courtney Armstrong. And tonight we have a
very special guest because it is Forensic Sunday. We have
Joseph Scott Morgan. Welcome Joseph, thank you for being here.
And tonight we have a diva, we have Ava, we
have is enjoying himself. So let's go to a talkback.

Speaker 8 (16:20):
This is Dawn, my first time calling in, but I've
been listening since the first episode and i love it.
I am from Staten Island and I am calling in
about that horrific decounitation case that happened here. They are
saying that Damien Herstel has a whole host of psychiatric issues,

(16:40):
including schizophrenia. Nothing that makes any difference, but that is
what you're hearing.

Speaker 5 (16:45):
Not surprising.

Speaker 3 (16:47):
Well, this is the case. I'm so glad you brought
it up, and thank you for calling in, Dawn. This
is something that Joseph actually knows a lot about. So
we are going to dig right in all right, So, yeah,
what you're referring to is damietl He's a nineteen year
old man, as you said, from Staten Island, and he's
accused of decapitating his stepfather.

Speaker 2 (17:08):
However, he has pleaded.

Speaker 3 (17:10):
Not guilty to murder and this was during an in
person court appearance. He does remain under psychiatric supervision as
well as a suicide watch. So here's what happened. On
October sixth, so just about a little over a month ago,
police discovered forty five year old Anthony casa loaspro and

(17:32):
he is the victim who was indeed decapitated. He was
found inside the West Brighton home that he was sharing
with his step son, the accused, Damien Herstel. Damien was
taken into custody very sadly at the scene after his
sixteen year old sister found the body of Anthony Coslabro's

(17:53):
stepfather and she then alerted their mother that then prompted
a homicide investigation.

Speaker 2 (18:00):
Right, so sad.

Speaker 5 (18:01):
Another another kid being exposed to this kind of Another
Another another girl, another little girl.

Speaker 3 (18:07):
Another little girl seeing unconscionable violence. At the at the hearing,
seven families did attend and they did so quietly. This
must be so difficult for them. Families, family, seven family members.
I'm like, okay, gotcha.

Speaker 2 (18:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (18:29):
And but here's what's interesting is that law enforcement said
that Damien, the accused, that he what they're alleging is
that he planned to dismember and dispose of his stepfather
Anthony's body, including premeditation, despite his mental health issues.

Speaker 5 (18:46):
Oh so we'll see how them.

Speaker 3 (18:49):
Yeah, we'll see how that plays out in court. And
in fact, the accused, Damien, his next scheduled court appearance
is November twentieth, very briefly, the day of and then
I have a ton of questions for Joseph Scott Morgan.
So police initially thought that they were coming in they

(19:11):
got a call that they there was a stabbing only however,
Anthony was found. He was stabbed. However, he also was decapitated.
He was found in his bathrobe, in his bathtub, excuse me,
And there was a knife still lodged in his body.
And in one of the crime scene photos you see

(19:32):
the victim severed head that was lying next to his
corpse inside of this tub shower, and there was a
bowl and a saw on the floor nearby. So Joseph,
please hop in tell us what to think.

Speaker 4 (19:48):
I gotta tell you. Yeah, I wouldn't presume to tell
you what to think, but I'll lay it out from
my thoughts. You know, what's really heartbreaking about this case
is that Anthony was this disabled sanitation worker. He couldn't
get around any longer. This guy's helpless, and this kid

(20:09):
just attacks him, attacks him and then begins to desecrate
his body with the sixteen year old sister in the house,
and he went so far. This is why I'm not
buying into the whole reasoning with the psychiatric angle on this.
He had a self preservation. He went to the top

(20:33):
with the body in order to clean to clean up, right,
because this is a real bloody affair. He's trying to
literally take apart the body in order to hide it.
And I think probably, and forgive me for talking about this,
because this is probably one of the more ghastly elements
to this whole thing, is the fact that, according to

(20:55):
I think initially the sister who he tried to show
the contents to head, you don't just have stab ones here,
You've got bludgeoning to the cranial vault has been opened
and allegedly this poor man's brain that it extruded from
the skull was placed into a blender.

Speaker 5 (21:17):
Oh my god.

Speaker 4 (21:18):
And that's what's so heartbreaking. Well, there's much of this.
It's heartbreaking. But you know, when you now we're this
is something we're into another level here now, because we're
talking about somebody's trying to liquify a body, not just
this member of body clean up after themselves, trying to
liquified body I guess, to flush it down into the
sewer system or whatever the base might be. So that's

(21:41):
what they're dealing with in this particular case. And yeah,
I mean, you can say all you want that he's
mentally imbalanced, but as far as I'm concerned, when I
that was me on the scene, I would say that
this is just pure unadulterated evil. Y'all.

Speaker 5 (21:57):
Well, you can still be like found competent and still
have issues as well, Like you can be both. Yeah,
you know, the level.

Speaker 4 (22:05):
Of planning that is a great example of that.

Speaker 5 (22:08):
I'm sorry.

Speaker 4 (22:10):
Ed Dean is a great advent.

Speaker 5 (22:12):
Yeah he was.

Speaker 4 (22:13):
He was incompetent beforehand, and they put him, you know,
the institutionalized him and got him well and brought him
back and had a trial for him a decade later,
if not longer, you know, and he could stand trial then, right, Hm.

Speaker 5 (22:27):
Wow. So there was a spoon also sticking out of
the dismembered skull along with the plastic sauce label. So
there was he was literally trying to dispose of this
body through through this blender.

Speaker 2 (22:43):
Yeah situation.

Speaker 4 (22:44):
Yeah, he was trying to the spoon itself had been
inserted into the eye socket.

Speaker 5 (22:49):
Oh my god.

Speaker 4 (22:49):
So he was making an attempt to Yeah, he was
making an attempt to remove or extricate the eye from
the orbit, again getting to the saw of areas that
he could penetrate with the tools that he had at hand.
This is certainly you know, we go back to this
earlier comment that we made about the woman that was
trying to dissolve the body or whatever the case might

(23:11):
have been. They're using those things. These are called instruments
of opportunity. Okay. It's not like you've gone down to
the local slaughterhouse and you employed somebody there that has
the tools, or somebody that works in the morgue that
has too. You're talking about somebody that's going out to
the shed or in this case, beneath, you know, into
the kitchen cabinet in order to you know, provide themselves

(23:34):
with tools, bring a saw into the house and then
you know, of course dragging this poor man's remains into
the tub to try to wash all the evidence down
the journey.

Speaker 5 (23:43):
Oh my goodness. This is true crime tonight on iHeartRadio
where we're talking true crime all the time. I'mbody moving
and I'm here with Courtney Armstrong and forensics death investigator
Joseph Scott Morgan. And right now we're right in the
middle of talking about a recent decapitation case and you know,
for quite frankly body utilizing and utilization case out of
Stanton Island, and we want to hear from you. Give

(24:03):
us a call at eight eight to thirty one crime
or hit us on the talkbacks on the iHeartRadio app. Joseph,
You've been doing this very long, right, have you ever
seen any anything like this? Is this something unique? I mean,
I know decapitations are rare, right, but something like this
will then trained to expose of the body in this manner.

Speaker 4 (24:24):
Yeah, yeah, And I've worked a couple over the years.
And again I go back and you guys, can you
guys can say I'm nutty, but I have to tell
you I feel as though that there's been an increase
of these.

Speaker 9 (24:36):
I do too.

Speaker 4 (24:36):
We just talked about one. Yeah, yeah, exactly, And as
a matter of fact, my partner and I own body bags.
We did a special episode Takes a Lot before an
audience two years ago at Crome Con.

Speaker 6 (24:51):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (24:51):
Where was that? I think it maybe me Chrome Con, Orlando.
I can't remember anyway specifically focusing on this because we
were seeing so many any of these trends relative to
desecration of human remains. It's almost like it's not enough
just to merely kill somebody. Now people do things with
bodies now. Afterwards that over the course of my career,

(25:15):
I was an invest scare for over twenty years, and
you know, and now I've taught for twenty years. Never
never have I seen it at this pitch. If this
is seak that we're experiencing right now, I remember.

Speaker 7 (25:30):
You saying that on shows before.

Speaker 6 (25:32):
So I did a little research because I was curious, like,
if there's any evidence that it has increased, and why
that could be and the most recent reliable study I
could find, and if you have a more reliable recent
study please send us a talkbacker give.

Speaker 7 (25:47):
Us a call.

Speaker 6 (25:48):
But it's that according to a twenty twelve study, capitation
of bodies is only approximately zero point one percent of
medimal lingual autopsy. So that's zero point one percent, and
that includes homicides, accidents, suicides, if that's impossible, so it's
even less than zero point one percent of homicides. And

(26:08):
because it's so rare, there's so little research about, for example,
how frequent it is, if that has increased or did decrease.

Speaker 7 (26:16):
And I was.

Speaker 6 (26:16):
Particularly interested in like cultural factors like if For example,
I saw one statistic that said, in countries where decapitation
is a form of like execution, like the death penalty,
it's more common in terms of just like civilian homicides.

Speaker 7 (26:31):
So I was really trying to find out.

Speaker 5 (26:32):
Like a guillotine or something, right, like, Yes, so in
countries where there's that kind of thing, it is that
isn't more.

Speaker 7 (26:39):
Prevalent because it's maybe more it's more.

Speaker 5 (26:41):
Naturalized, it's more natural, more accepted.

Speaker 6 (26:44):
There's so little research about it. So I'm just really
curious about that.

Speaker 5 (26:48):
No, I am too. And you know, the case that
brings me to this is was Luca. You know, and
Luca decapitated Junelyn, and you know, it is a very
rare and it's a Luca did it because he was
he wanted to be as disgusting as possible, and he
wanted to be as outlandish as possible, so he did
everything to Jelen. I mean, he rests in peace that

(27:09):
he could just to get reactions out of people. So,
you know, but in these situations that we're talking about recently,
they seem sort of not that they seem mentally unbalanced
in some way. Wow, I wonder.

Speaker 4 (27:24):
I don't know. I've often thought about. I've really been
thinking about because twenty twelve from a research standpoint, now,
it's kind of in our rear view mirror. That's true,
you know, that's some distance back. So for me, I
think there's a level of desensitization. Yeah, we're seeing and
I think that that might be translatable. Now Listen, I've

(27:46):
got a very small piece of high relative to what
I'm seeing. So some of this I don't think it's
necessarily anecdotal. I think that that there's something there because
these cases are being and maybe it's being a bias
relative to you know, if it bleeds leads and so
the more horrific the trial, the case is, the more
that it kind of gets into the system. However, it

(28:10):
seems to me, it seems to me that there are more,
it's more and more prevalent, just the things that people
want to do with human remains and people that you
would not normally. You know, a lot of stuff with
this memberment. That sort of thing is stuff that for
many years was associated, as you mentioned, in capital punishment

(28:30):
countries you said, at wartime and in organized crime, in
order to facilitate the you know, to get rid of
the body. But now you know, and I'll cite this
case again that I've mentioned before, the mother and the
daughter in Maryland, I think a year and a half ago,
that dismembered the grandmother and tried to render her down

(28:51):
on the gas girl in the backyard like that. Yeah, yeah,
and that you know again, you know, who, who in
the world, who would ever think that that could even
possibly happen. You know, it's beyond the pale.

Speaker 3 (29:07):
It is, it's beyond the pale. And so is what
seems like just torture upon torture. So Damien, the accused,
I had not quite realized that he actually showed the
body to his sixteen year old sister, and when the
sixteen year old called mom, Mom recolects phone calls saying

(29:30):
Damien killed Anthony and he doesn't have a head. So that,
I mean, I feel like that goes a little bit
in concert with what you're talking about, Joseph, of just
ratcheting up sort of how.

Speaker 2 (29:44):
Evil you can be for Lafe.

Speaker 5 (29:48):
Yeah, And I think it's important to point out too
that you know, Alicia, the mom, Damien's mom, she was
the wife of the victim. She testified and said that,
you know, Anthony Salapo, that's the victim. Anthony was a
good man. He was a city sanitation mechanic who really
stepped up big to help raise her children. And this now,

(30:09):
this poor man has been paid back by being decapitated
by the very boy he helped raise.

Speaker 7 (30:16):
That is so tragic.

Speaker 5 (30:18):
It's so sad, like, you know, this guy's just doing
his job raising his kids, you know. And Damian, you know,
he the accused in this case. He has a history
of psychia treatment, including hospitalization and the use of antipsychotic
and bipolar medication. So it is clear that he has
some kind of diagnosis, right that there are some mental

(30:39):
stability problems, but is that going to make him not
culpable for this. I don't know.

Speaker 4 (30:44):
That's going to be one of the interesting things. One
of the interesting things for me, and this is a
scary thought. I'm really wondering if there's any corollary between
some of the drug cocktails people are own now relative
to the distensive stations, not just media related. It can be.
You know, you never know, because you've gotten many practitioners

(31:05):
out there that again, they like to throw pharmaceuticals at
people here, take this and we'll get you leveled out.
And these people stale this for a protracted period of time,
and the slice adjustment in chemistry I think can set
some people off.

Speaker 5 (31:18):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (31:19):
Now, We're going to go straight to a.

Speaker 10 (31:20):
Talkback Michelle with oneel here and exciting news out of Florida.
Jennifer Keyes case is no longer considered a cold case,
and apparently there is untested evidence that they're going to
DNA test and we here in Florida really hope the
family can get some answers and she can get some justice.

Speaker 3 (31:42):
That's a great talk back and this has been absolutely
on our radar. We were speaking very recently with Joseph
Scott Morgan, so we should speak more about it now.
So the case which I as you know you in Friends,
has been big in Florida's hearts and minds. Nearly twenty
years ago, Jennifer Kessey disappeared and Florida investigators have uncovered

(32:06):
previously untested DNA evidence. This has dramatically narrowed the list
of potential suspects. They are also using advanced AYE tools
to reanalyze the case and now officially reclassify it as
active rather than cold, which to your point is great
news for the family. So Jennifer Kessey was just twenty

(32:28):
four years old. She was a finance professional in Orlando,
and she vanished January twenty third of two thousand and six,
and this was after returning home from a trip with
her boyfriend. Her car later was found about a mile away,
and there was some surveillance footage that showed an identified

(32:49):
person parking it, but no trace of her has ever
been found. And unfortunately it was a very it was
a poor angle and poor quality of that video itself.
But it's really it's great news that it is now
an active case.

Speaker 2 (33:07):
So previously this untested DNA evidence.

Speaker 3 (33:12):
It had been located, and it's undergoing modern rat exape
re examination that's expanding from nineteen to twenty six genetic markers,
and what that will do is give increased accuracy. So, Joseph,
what are your thoughts on this?

Speaker 4 (33:28):
Yeah, I might be mistaken. There was There's been a
couple of these cases now in Florida. And if I'm
remembering correctly, this car that was hers, it seems like
the family had it and it was sold or something
like this. I can't remember. I think one of the
and they had wanted to get it back at one

(33:49):
point in time. I might be misremembering, So forgive me,
forgive me as I am. I would hope that at
that point toime that the interior of the car had
been thoroughly, thoroughly examined in any samples that were there
could have been re examined. I think that there may
have been something in that car that could have been degraded,

(34:12):
perhaps could have been degraded perhaps from an evidentry standpoint.

Speaker 11 (34:18):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (34:19):
And the tools that we had back during that period
of time, again, we've you know, we're many years moved
on down the line. Now we believe it or not
we require less sample now and better sensitivity. Isn't that something?
And so yeah, and so with and that's one of

(34:41):
the reasons you're seeing advancements in a lot of these cases.
A lot of people hummed back and forth over the
Ramsey case. You know, back then, you know, you would
have to have a gigantic spot of blood in order
to reference that in order to do DNA, And now
you know, you can look at some thing besides the
you know, the head of a pen, and it will

(35:05):
it will, it will have more sensitivity the instrumentation. I'm
wondering if that's what they're looking at now, something that
they had previously collected and they're like, I can't get
enough off of this. But now that you is going
back and they can, they can amplify perhaps, And that's
what I'm going to be very interested in seeing here.

Speaker 5 (35:25):
So I did the calculation, and so they expanded from
nineteen in two thousand and six to twenty six genetic
markers for increased accuracy in the span of nineteen years. Right,
So because it's two thousand and five in two thousand
and six, that's a thirty six percent increase or almost
thirty seven percent increase in You know, this is a

(35:46):
big advancement for the scientific community. Hats off to them.
That's a big deal. Just might help a lot of case.

Speaker 4 (35:51):
Yeah, prediction within the decade, it's even going to become
more sensitive. You can bet your bottom dollar on it
that will happen. And that's why I have great hope
that a lot of cases like Jennifer we're gonna be
able to get clear off the books. Got I mean,
how as tragic as her death is, of course are missing,

(36:15):
but just how exciting this the fact that we'll be
able to get these cases off the books and give
these families some resolution, right, Yeah, that's the beauty of
the science, I think absolutely.

Speaker 3 (36:28):
And Joseph, you had earlier mentioned the car, which was
a black two thousand and four Chevy Malibu, and it
was discovered two days after she went missing. It was
about a mile from her condo, and you were right
about there being a little bit of evidence, so it
appeared to have been wiped clean of evidence, with the

(36:49):
exception of one latent print and a small DNA fiber.
And as you were just saying, with these advancements, what
you know, maybe it was so small back then maybe
as much more meaningful.

Speaker 2 (37:01):
Now.

Speaker 4 (37:03):
Wow, Yeah, I'm wondering the fingerprint is interesting now too.
I'm wondering if they might have some touch DNA, you
know where you've got these dit dit skin cells that
have slopped off because we lose you know, I don't know,
somebody throw out a number at one point time, like
one hundred thousand these things for day uh you know,
I mean Jurgons has made a ton of money off

(37:23):
of us, right guys for dry skin and that's you know,
that's what you're talking about, and so you're leaving these
things behind you're not aware of it. I wonder if
that those points of contact, because you can never clear everything.
You watch some movie and everybody's wiping everything down, it's
almost sent empirical and possibility to hit every single point.

(37:44):
And if they did a thorough job at that particular time,
maybe just maybe they've also they've also can bolster this
with some touch DNA that you know, they hadn't thought
about in the past.

Speaker 2 (37:56):
Interesting.

Speaker 3 (37:57):
So yeah, it seems like really possibilities are opening up,
and we wish nothing but the best for Jennifer Kesse's
family to get some closure on this. This is shueground.
Tonight we're on iHeartRadio. I'm Courtney Armstrong. I'm here with
Body Move In and of course Joseph Scott Morgan, everybody's

(38:17):
favorite forensic expert. If you have any questions for Joseph,
give us a call. We're at eighty to eighty three
to one Crime or as always, hit us on the talkbacks.
Open up the app, the iHeartRadio app. It's in the
upper right hand corner. It's a little red microphone button.
You press it, you leave basically a voicemail, and then
you are on the air. And in fact, we are

(38:40):
now going to go to a talk back.

Speaker 12 (38:42):
Hey y'all, it's Samantha Jersey's in the house. Jerseys about
organ donation on your license, if you guys can contact
like a doctor or something, because I heard if you
and your friend are in a terrible car accident, doctors
will perform more care on the person that is not
an organ donor because they figured if you are an

(39:04):
organ donor, you can save multiple lives.

Speaker 10 (39:07):
I doubt it's true, but I don't know.

Speaker 12 (39:10):
That's just what I've heard.

Speaker 5 (39:12):
I've heard. I've heard that my entire life, Like, don't
don't put organ donor on your driver's license, because then
people know and they won't take care of you at
the hospital. I have heard that, like my entire life.
I'm still an organ doner by the way, but yeah,
I have heard that.

Speaker 3 (39:27):
Joseph, can you speak a little bit too medical ethics, Well.

Speaker 4 (39:34):
I don't know. I think that if there's any medical
professional out there that actually engages in that kind of behavior,
they should be summarily drummed out of the profession and
probably criminally charged, just in you know, my humble opinion,
because every life has value, and so if you know,
if I were to ever hear about that, I'd be shocked.

(39:56):
I'm not saying that it hasn't happened, and I don't know.
It's it's rather cynical on one level to think of it. Yeah,
you know, you know, I guess, I guess. Yeah. Well,
you're seeing that people are thinking about it. So the thought,
the fact that this is out there and floating about

(40:18):
is interesting. Now. I've had some really good experiences with
organization elements in the past, because they actually have to come.
If you have somebody that is a victim of violence, okay,
that has brought about their death or is about to
bring about their death and they're on event. For instance,
they the people that want to harvest the organs in

(40:40):
a case of violence, it could be a homicide or whatever.
They have to call us first at the emmy end
corner and say, look, we want to do our organ
hards station. Will you go ahead and give us permission.
We'll give the surgeon specific instructions about what we need.
First off, we're going to be their surgical notes. If
there's a bullet our projectile trajectory, we have to understand

(41:03):
that because when they go in, they're not thinking forensics,
they're thinking actual. They're thinking actual of what do we
do to make this a successful harvestation. So you have
to work hand in hand with them, and we're still
going to do an autopsy on the body even afterwards.
I participated in many of those over the years.

Speaker 2 (41:25):
Oh, this is very interesting.

Speaker 3 (41:28):
I had no idea that this was an avenue of
your ware of the work of medical examiners.

Speaker 4 (41:36):
Yeah. And on the side, I used to do eye
in nucleations as well. I would go out for the
I bank and take corneus of the dead. Yeah, sure
it is. So, I've been involved with it for a
protracted period of time over the years, and I'm a
big fan of it. Obviously, I've seen it, you know,
I've seen the end game, and these people and their

(41:57):
families make tremendous sacrifices by what they're doing. Oh, you're right,
you know. Uh Oh, I'm sorry, Ada, I think made
a comment, and right you are, because for for everybody
that that offers up a part of themselves. You know,
you've got two kidneys that could go and save two
people's lives, a couple of lungs, You've got a heart,

(42:19):
you know, liver, these sorts of things that if they're
healthy enough and you know they can, they're going to
be viable. Boy, what a blessing that could be.

Speaker 2 (42:27):
You know, absolutely, Why don't we go to another talk back?

Speaker 11 (42:32):
Let's do it, Hey, chikus, It's Mary Kay in Cincinnati, Ohio.
I wanted to throw out there that I am one
of those people that is donating their body to science.
So I am aware that I might end up in
a field or am I to end up being dissected,
but I figure I am helping either cure cancer or

(42:52):
catch the next serial killer.

Speaker 7 (42:54):
Thanks love you, guys.

Speaker 5 (42:55):
Oh Mary Kay, You're an angel. That's great, and it
really does help a lot of people, right like you
might you might be the one person or a contributor
of one person that you know helps eradicate some disease
that hasn't even been released yet, you know what I mean?
Like you just don't know, and uh, you know, I don't.

Speaker 4 (43:19):
Right now? What the beauty of what what she's mentioning
Right now? In jack State where I teach, I'm the
uh the gross anatomy lab manager, and we have three
cantaverse right now that our undergraduate forensic students are having
exposure to. We're doing dissections throughout the semester and the
beauty of that is that these kids that finish up

(43:42):
in our program will have the experiences having been around
the dead before they were actually going to the field,
and they'll understand form and function. Right. We can talk
about trauma, we can talk about injuries that sort of things,
but uh, my wife, who's a PE teacher by trade,
she loves to term sthetic learning where you're touching something,

(44:02):
you're feeling it, and you see it in action. That
sorts of things, and it's amazing. I've actually seen light
bulbs go off, you know, I can do some boring
lecture on death investigation or some particular area. But if
you have, if you have human remains to demonstrate that with,
it's a very very powerful tool, right.

Speaker 5 (44:22):
Yeah, hands on, I mean I learned.

Speaker 7 (44:24):
Okay, I have a question because I saw a post
and I don't know if it's misinformation in Joseph. Maybe
you can debunk that.

Speaker 6 (44:34):
If you donate your body, it could go to the
military and they might use it to test explosives and
your body's going to get blown up online?

Speaker 7 (44:41):
Is that true?

Speaker 4 (44:42):
Yeah? Yeah, the army, Well that was army. You heard
that many many years ago, I have, but that was
from back in the fifties. Our post just for post
World War two, if I'm remembering correctly, and there were
some sometimes they did that to the to my knowledge,
you know, I say it's military is not participating in

(45:04):
those activities. I'm sure there's people with temple hats out
there that will say that it is still going on. However,
to the best of my knowledge, I don't know about
that happening, and it would violate so so so many
you know, yeah, things that are acceptable, you know, relative
to know how we treat our dead and at the

(45:26):
end of the day. You know, that's kind of where
I dance. I'm an advocate for the dead. Sometimes the
dead certainly don't have a voice, and many times they
don't have a family around. And I've heard of some
horrible experiment experimentation that has gone on in the past
that I can verify. But to the best my knowledge,
US military is is no longer participating in it.

Speaker 5 (45:48):
That you can that you've heard other things that you can,
We're going to have to We're going to put a
pin in that and get back. We're going to have
a discussion about that, because I want to know what
things you were saying. Oh, you could verify that's very interesting.

Speaker 3 (46:01):
But hopefully Eva your mind is put at ease with
what hasn't been going on for a cool seventy five.

Speaker 4 (46:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (46:06):
I just love a vision of my body getting blown
up in a field and it's like I'm surrounded by
like US military.

Speaker 7 (46:15):
That's definitely helpful.

Speaker 3 (46:17):
Well, we are going to put that fear unfounded as
it is to rest and hopefully everyone will be sticking
around because coming up at the top of the hour,
class is in session. Professor Joseph Scott Morgan himself will
be giving us a crime lab on all things blood spatter.
I know body you have questions written up and teed

(46:38):
up and if you do, give us call eight a
eight three one crime True Crime Tonight.

Speaker 5 (46:54):
This is your Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio where we talk
true crime all the time. I'm Boddy Moving and I'm
here with producer Courtney Armstrong and Ava and Death investigator
Joseph Scott Morgan. Don't forget if you miss any part
of this show, you can always catch the podcast. We
also want to hear from you, so please give us
a call it eight eight eight three one crime or
get with us on our socials at True Crime Tonight's

(47:16):
show on TikTok and Instagram and True Crime Tonight on
Facebook Now. Classes in session, we have professor Joseph Scott Morgan.
It's time for crime Lab today. Today this is a
special one. He's going to be talking and teaching us
a little bit about the world of blood spatter and

(47:36):
how investigators use it to put together the puzzle, put
together the pieces of events that took place at a
crime scene. And later in the show we're going to
be using what we learned to talk about this new
forensics information that's come out about the Idaho student murder,
So stay tuned for that. That's going to be in
our next segment. Joseph classes in session. I brought you
an apple. I brought you an apple. I am teacher's

(47:57):
pet right now.

Speaker 2 (47:58):
Kiss, I don't know.

Speaker 5 (48:02):
Listen, here's a whisky. Here's a little whiskey. I don't
know what what you drink.

Speaker 4 (48:06):
Let's get drink so there, Okay, yeah, it's not really nothing. Yeah,
you know the beauty I've got to tell you the
beauty of uh. And people think that's odd when you
use or beauty, but the idea of when you walk
into a scene and you have blood deposition in various forms,

(48:30):
you know, throughout a space, it's it. You know, people
think that they do things in secret, right in a homicide,
for instance, where you've got a shooting, a stabbing or bludgeoning,
and you know what, guys, not everything happens happens in
secret because you can walk into a room someone that

(48:50):
really really knows what they're doing, and you can track
the movements of the victim. You can track the movements
of the perpetrator. You can even track the movement of
an instrument. Okay, how it's utilized. Was it used in
a beating for instance, or do you have a knife
where somebody is just kind of standing static in one

(49:13):
spot where blood is passively dripping off the tip of
that knife and dropping on the floor. They gives you
an indication that that blood was in a static position.
So there's a lot to learn. It goes back to
what doctor Maguci said all those years ago in his
book Corner Corner at Large. He said, the thing that
I do, I'm no longer to look at bodies when

(49:35):
I walk into a scene. I look up at the
ceiling and then I work my way down to the
body because you keep in context everything within that scene,
and blood is one of the most important things. So
for us, we essentially have three types of blood blood deposition.
So we will have blood that is passive, that kind

(49:57):
of drips away, you know, somebody perhaps has it on
their hand a weapon. Maybe you're moving a body and
you've got a blood a bloody head that is saturated,
the hair is and the blood is free falling through
the air like that. We have a blood that is projected.
And everybody loves to talk about that kind of blood

(50:19):
deposition because they think they can learn a lot about
the type of weapon that was used, and you can.
But we measure that in velocity. We have low velocity.
So if you think about low velocity blood deposition or statter,
that kind of energy is generated by somebody that's using
their hands to beat somebody with. Okay, you can't generate

(50:44):
a lot of energy that way, kicking, punching, hitting. Then
you move up to medium velocity. All right, So now
we're in the realm of like a hammer, a baseball bat,
where we're actually taking an instrument and beating somebody with it.
We just talked about this young man just a moment

(51:04):
ago that you know that that penetrated this guy's skull. Well,
that would take you know, perhaps multiple strikes to get
in there, and a lot of energy over and over
and over again. And then of course we have high velocity.
And I'm going to give you a little experiment to
do actually as part of my class, to if you

(51:26):
if you want a demonstration of high velocity or what
it looks like high velocity blood deposition. If anyone at
home has a can of aerosol hairspray, go into go
into your bathroom and take the hairspray and hold it
about I don't know, maybe about five to six inches
away from your mirror and just one pump, one sprit

(51:50):
like that, and then obliquely, which means stand to the side. Okay,
stand to the side, and you will actually be able
to see this deposition on that smooth surface, which is
the best kind of surface to have if you're trying
to do an interpretation of blood deposition, and what you
will see are these little particulated pieces or bits of

(52:11):
this hairspray. Blood does the same thing. That's an indication
of high velocity, so you'll actually see blood that's driven
by a high velocity instrument, so like a handgun round
or rifle round, a shotgun round, and it is there
is a mist that is created, and we call it

(52:33):
it's like a histamine mist, and it just kind of
blows in. It adheres to any kind of surface, and
you can see that real well, real well on a
mirror if you stand to the side. And standing to
the side of observing something obliquely is actually something we
do at the scene because your eyes will to see
you if you're looking straight on. If we can get

(52:54):
a flashlight and stand to the side of an area
and look at it and obliquely light it and bounce
light off of it. And that applies with photography. To
flash photography, you can get sometimes you can get a
better area of How how how how extensively the distribution
of that blood is?

Speaker 2 (53:12):
Joseph, I ask you a question, Professor Moore.

Speaker 3 (53:17):
Yes, so you mentioned that the ideal surface is flat,
you know, like a mirror. How does how does the
investigation change if we're talking about blood spatter not on
say a flat wall, but on some sort of bed
duvet or shag carpet.

Speaker 2 (53:36):
How does the interpretation change?

Speaker 4 (53:38):
Very difficult? You add another level because that's a non
that is a porous surface, very poor thing with Yeah,
with unpolished wood, you'll get that on the dashboard of
a car where it's kind of you don't really think
of it being traditionally dimpled, but it is dimpled. It's textured.
So any kind of textured surface, just think of it

(54:00):
this way. According without giving too much away about your
personal life. You live in California, right, You've got those
beautiful beaches the further north. You go up on those
beaches up toward Carmel in that area, you've got those
beautiful rocks and the stones that kind of line the
walls there. Well, that's a very if you think about
on microscopic cross section, there are many items like a

(54:22):
wooden table that if you cut them, it'll look like
those stones on the beach. It's very uneven. And just
think about a tiny droplet flying through the air and
maybe topping topping the hill or the rise on that
surface and then going down into a valley and then
tumbling over. It's going to change the dynamic of that
blood distribution. Okay, So whereas with a smooth surface, you

(54:46):
might have one droplet, but if you're on kind of
a non smooth surface, as it strips it, it very
well might particulate that blood even further and that can
kind of throw some of your estimates off.

Speaker 5 (55:00):
Tonight on iHeartRadio, I'm Buddy move in here with Courtney
Armstrong and Jessice M Morgan, and we're right in the
middle of talking about how forensic investigators analyze blood spatter
and how that helps them put together the pieces of
the puzzle of what happened at the crime scene. And
we want to hear from you, so hit us up
on the talk past Joseph. We were talking about these
porous materials and how it affects the analysis that these

(55:22):
crime scene investigators will look at. And we mentioned a
duvet and whatnot. What about leather? This is going to
play into.

Speaker 4 (55:30):
My next Okay, I gotcha. Yeah, leather depended upon how
how refined the leather is. Okay, Like if you have
if you have a belt, for instance, and it's the
leather belt, one side of the belt is going to
be rather refined, right, you know, that's the pretty side,

(55:51):
the side that you want to display all.

Speaker 5 (55:53):
Right, outside of the jacket you have it, okay.

Speaker 4 (55:56):
Yeah, yeah, exactly, and it's flipping over and you've got
that it almost looks like swede, you know, it's rough
more rough. Yeah, And so that's that is the poorous surface,
a true poor surface. Now, the outer portion of the
of the dependent upon how the belt is treated in
the factory, and the outer portion is still going to

(56:18):
be poors. It's not like glass or even a stone.
Like if people have h marble countertops or a beautiful,
beautiful area to distribute blood on because they're so very smooth.
But if you've got wooden cabinets that are adjacent to
it that are kind of rough hewn, perhaps that's going

(56:39):
to affect it. And even a painted surface is not
as preferable as like a mirror, which is definitely non porous,
or certainly stone marble, that sort of thing.

Speaker 6 (56:49):
Definitely, I've been thinking about just the Ellen Greenberg case always.

Speaker 7 (56:55):
I think test stuck with all of us.

Speaker 6 (56:56):
And she was the school teacher in Philadelphia who it's
very controversial whether she was murdered or it was a suicide.
And I remember there was a detail about the direction
of blood droplets on her and how they could tell
that maybe her body was moved posthumously based on the
direction of the blood.

Speaker 7 (57:14):
What can you tell me about that.

Speaker 4 (57:17):
I'm glad you brought that out, area, because that is
that's a marker that we look to. This called gravitational
blood flow. Let me give you a brief prom er
on that and then we'll talk about Ellen. So you've
got if you've got gravitational blood flow, just think about
a large bit of blood that has been deposited on

(57:37):
a wall. Okay, if you just think about a big
droplet that strikes the wall, well over a period of time,
that blood doesn't instantaneously dry up, right, it kind of pulls.
You've seen it with other substances. It's just that blood
is red and it's viscous, which means kind of thick
compared to water, and so you get this gravitational pull

(58:00):
on that droplet that will drain it down. It's going
to seek just like water, It's going to seek the
lowest point of gravity. Okay. Well, in Ellen's case, one
of the things that we have is the horizontal blood flow,
all right, that when she seated up and I can't
remember now, I think it's on the right aspect of

(58:22):
her cheek. You have a blood stream that is going
parallel to her shoulders, over her ear, Okay. And so
what they believe is that at one point time she
was probably in a soupine or a modified supine position,

(58:42):
which means on her back are kind of on her side,
blood leached out and it was seeking. Like we said,
here we go the lowest point of gravity, and so
or you know that that bottom portion is going gravity
is pulling it down, and at some point in time
she was repositioned, so she's leaning against the cabintry at
that point, and it's really striking. I'll go ahead and

(59:05):
tell you guys, I've actually seen the real image of this,
not some computer generated things. And so when you see this,
you appreciate directionality here, the directionality of you know, it
really is a head scratcher, because some bright person that
saw this initially said, this just doesn't make sense relatives

(59:27):
to what we know about the nature of blood, how
it's deposited, and what happens afterwards, because it's not just
the flight and the impact. You know, blood just like
any other watery substance, said, you know, it takes on
a life of its own after a period of time
until it dries in place, and that can change. It

(59:48):
can change either by body positionality. It can change because
people move bodies around, which is a transfer pattern, people
dragging bodies, people rolling bodies over. Uh, you know, you're
you're going to get these various presentations that are that
can in fact mask the initial traumatic event like an

(01:00:10):
impact on somebody, where you get that initial blast of
blood and deposition. But after a period of time, certain
things can happen with the body depending upon how the
body is either treated in nature or how the body
is either treated by one of our fellow human beings.

Speaker 5 (01:00:28):
Wow.

Speaker 6 (01:00:29):
So the wow I didn't realize that about the Ellen case,
that it was parallel to the ground.

Speaker 5 (01:00:35):
That's insane, that that would imply she was right like
down like.

Speaker 4 (01:00:40):
Or modified modified in some way. Yeah. You know. Another
thing about blood as well is that uh and this
is this is something that will kill everybody to the bone.
It always did for me for some reason. And that
that handprints in blood and because you know, I've got

(01:01:04):
a bit of the philosopher in men, and it goes
beyond science with me. When I see handprints and blood,
it gives you an idea of that person's last moments
in life or what the perpetrator was doing at that
moment in time, whether you have that evidence that kind
of is frozen in time. All right. So if you

(01:01:27):
see if you see, for instance, you know, somebody that
places their hand on something, or they're trying to open
a door, you know, actually in a door knob or
flipping a white switch, and that handprint is there, or
somebody has grabbed their throat to try to stem bleeding,
for instance, you can literally see their handprints. One thing

(01:01:50):
in closing, something that will always stick with me is
that there was this poor little lady that was that
was being abused by her husband. He would whip her
with a belt every day. And he came home and
passed out. After he got drunk. She had had enough.
He whipped her right before that, hit her with a
buckle of the belt, and after he had passed out,
And so she went and got a steak knife and

(01:02:13):
she drove it into his back multiple times as he
was passed out. And as he's passed out there you
could see where she had placed her hand to hold
him in place, in his own blood, and she had
driven the knife over and over and she broke the
blade off in his body.

Speaker 5 (01:02:29):
Oh my goodness. Well, coming up, we're going to be
putting our new knowledge to the test. What can we
learn from the blood found at the Idaho student murders
Romcy keep it here for drunking.

Speaker 2 (01:02:48):
This is true crime today.

Speaker 3 (01:02:49):
We are on iHeart Radio and we are talking true
crime all the time.

Speaker 2 (01:02:53):
I'm Courtney Armstrong.

Speaker 3 (01:02:55):
I'm here with my buddy Boddy Move in and it
is Scientific Sunday and we're so thrilled to be here
with forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan.

Speaker 2 (01:03:04):
Don't forget if you missed any part.

Speaker 3 (01:03:06):
Of the show, you can always get the podcast and
always we want to hear from you. You can always
call us eight eight eight three to one. Crime Joseph
is ready here for any of your forensic questions, or
get with us on socials. We are at True Crime
Tonight's show on TikTok and Instagram and True Crime Tonight
on Facebook. Later in the show we will be hearing

(01:03:28):
a lot more from you. But right now we are
putting our new knowledge of blood deposition that we just
learned in our crime lab from Joseph Scott Morgan.

Speaker 2 (01:03:37):
We're putting it to use. Body.

Speaker 3 (01:03:40):
What have you learned from the recent dump of forensic
inspiration about the Idaho student murders. I know you've been
chomping at the bit to talk to Joseph.

Speaker 5 (01:03:49):
I have, and I'm so excited, Joseph that you're here.
And I'm about to either make myself look really smart
or very stupid in front of a man I respect.
So keep that in mind that I'm going on the law. Yeah. So,
over twenty three hundred pages of new forensic information regarding
the Idaho student murders has been released to the public,

(01:04:10):
and it covers topics from DNA testing to blood spatter
it's called the Idaho State Police Forensic Services case jacket.
As a reminder, on November thirteenth, twenty twenty two, four
University of students were fatally stabbed in an off campus
house in Moscow, Idaho. Six weeks later, then twenty eight
year old Brian Coberger, a Washington State University PhD student,

(01:04:35):
was arrested and charged with their murders. After pleading guilty
on July second of this year, to avoid the death penalty,
he was sentenced to three weeks later to four consecutive
life terms without role plus ten years for burglary. Now
here's the information on the case jacket. In the case
jacket that was released, there's photos of the knife sheath,

(01:04:58):
and this the laboratory. The laboratory tech that took these
photos and made the notes, I think did an excellent
job of noting everything that she did and outlining the
areas that she swamped and if they were orthrotoltin positive
or not. And it's a very interesting area of this

(01:05:18):
document if you want to go look at I think
it starts around page seven hundred or so of this
document if you want to just jump to it. The sheath.
This is the first time we're seeing it, right, I mean,
we haven't seen the sheath until now. And the sheath
was initially found on the bed closer to under Maddie's
like I want to say, torso area like above her
hip is from what I'm understanding, kind of down by

(01:05:41):
her hip, I would say. And we can see from
some of the photos that you know, there's not a
lot of blood spatter on this knife sheath, okay. And
we can also tell from other crime scene photos of
Madison Mogan's room the bed wasn't like covered in blood, okay.
So there's areas of the bed that look completely clean, okay,

(01:06:05):
And that's going to happen. So all the blood spatter
on the sheath that we can see is focused on
the back part of the sheath, not the front part.
Is what I'm going to be calling where you deposit
the sheath and where the button snap is. The back
part of the sheath is the area that we can
see some of the blood spattered, and that implies that
the sheath was laying face down on the bed when

(01:06:27):
attacks may have occurred. Okay. And you can see I'm
looking at the picture right now, it's very very tiny,
tiny drops. Ok These are very very small, I would
say pinhead size, Okay, and there's maybe, I don't know,
fifteen of them. I haven't counted them. I'm gonna say
maybe fifteen of them. And looking closely at the bloodstains,

(01:06:50):
we can see how small they are. And so in
order for this blood to travel as far as it
would have had to, okay, it can't, it has to
be have some force behind it, right, it has to
have pressure of some kind. And so what I'm guessing,
and this is a complete guess, is that this is

(01:07:11):
expirated blood. And we know from the laboratory notes and
the you know, the the kind of things that have
come out, that it was primarily Kaylee consolvast blood. She
was the major contributor and Madison Mogan was the secondary contributor,
a minor contributor.

Speaker 13 (01:07:32):
So I'm expiated means, yeah, it's maybe uh you you
maybe if you get stabbed in your lung, let's say,
and you have blood bleeding into your lung and you
are coughing, or or maybe uh, you get.

Speaker 5 (01:07:49):
Hit in the nose and you blow and this could
this could happen in an attack I'm being I mean,
this is very nitty gritty stuff, right, and you blow
or you you cough, That would be expiated blood. Is
that correct?

Speaker 7 (01:08:03):
It's being expelled from your body.

Speaker 5 (01:08:06):
Yeah, it's being expelled.

Speaker 4 (01:08:09):
Just like an expelled Yeah. Yeah, yeah, as opposed to
uh we we hear the term aspirated many atoms and
uh for medical professionals out there, and I know we've
we've got a lot of listeners and friends out there
that are in medicine. You guys are very familiar with aspiration.
There's actually a condition called aspiration pneumonia that the elderly developed.

(01:08:32):
You'll have people that will you know, kind of uh,
aspirate food. You'll take it in, okay, and I'll get
into their their airway. But yeah, right to our body.
About the the expirated uh if the airway I'm.

Speaker 5 (01:08:48):
Sorry, I'm seizing, Please go, please continue?

Speaker 4 (01:08:51):
Oh okay, no, all right, the if the airway is
compromised in any way and you've got this kind of
you've got this kind of regurgitation in the airway that
goes on where the blood is actually projected, that's expiration.
Fascinating thing about expiated blood, Unlike like arterial arterial spray.

(01:09:15):
You know that you hear that in conjunction with like
clipping a karate it in the neck or the brachial
in the in the arm, is that this has got
a tremendous amount of force to it, and you'll get
these kind of tiny little satellite droplets, you know, that
will impact an area. Guys, I've actually seen expiated blood

(01:09:36):
that looks like well, first off, it looks like sometimes
it can look like high velocity blood deposition, okay, from
a rifle or a pangun, but you know now seen
it before on a wall where it actually looks like
a grape juice stain. The reason that looks that way
is that the droplets are so tiny they will kind

(01:09:57):
of converge and it's like watching it. It's like looking
there's that famous kind of impressionist painting that's done with
the dots. Have you ever seen that? Yeah? Yeah, and
just thousands of these dots. It would have driven me
crazy pain something like that. I can't pay that. That
would have really driven me craze. So you'll get those

(01:10:19):
concentrations like that, and that's that's kind of fascinating. But
you bring up an interesting point body about the sheath,
because you've got these little satellite droplets. And one thing
I didn't mention, one thing I did not mention in
our little lecture that we did tonight, is that when
you have projected blood many times, you will have a

(01:10:43):
tail on the blood so it does not come down perfectly,
and the tail always points in the direction of flight. Okay,
when I see these droplets, and again, this is a
I don't know if this is considered to be a
first generation photograph that I'm looking at, but that is released,
and this this tranche of documents that came out. When

(01:11:04):
I'm looking at this body, I don't know how you
feel that. I'd love to hear your thoughts about it.
These dropolets don't have tails on them. They look like
tiny little droplets that almost like you know, you talked
about the head of a pin and it looks like it
has dripped. It's the tip of a pin and they're
that and they're sparse, they're all over the place.

Speaker 5 (01:11:25):
They are.

Speaker 4 (01:11:25):
It could be expirated blood, but the dynamics of how
this would have had to have happened would be fascinating
to understand.

Speaker 5 (01:11:31):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it's still I mean, it still
could be an impact, right, like it still could be
from an impact, but the way it was positioned and
the you know, it was positioned face up, I'm assuming
you know, I'm making a big assumption that it was
found face down. I'm sorry, face down down right, and
this aspiration or I'm sorry, expiration had occurred, uh and

(01:11:56):
primarily from Kayley with a minor And I have a
feeling that this is the the satellite, like you said,
like if if you imagine the center of the gall
the Solar system being the Sun where it's really big,
and then as it gets out, you know, the planets
get smaller and smaller until you hit you better, really
and then they get smaller. Way these are those satellite planets.

(01:12:16):
They're very small and sparse. I have a feeling that
when the sheath was removed from the bed there was
kind of an outline, very very sparse outline of the sheath.

Speaker 4 (01:12:28):
And that I'll tell you what if we could and
I don't think these documents have been released, but that
would be of note. Okay, I don't know that we'll
ever get to see that the actual descriptor of the
crime sam itself, because we don't know how many of
these dumps there's going to be I don't know how
you guys feel about it. I was surprised. I was

(01:12:50):
absolutely surprised, not necessarily that there was a document release,
it's just the volume. All of us sat around, Oh
my lord, how are we going to go through all
of this? There's certain people going up, Oh.

Speaker 3 (01:13:03):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean there's yeah, you know, over two
thousand pages. This is true crime tonight, and we are
talking true crime all the time. We've been talking about
the forensics of the Idaho student murder crime scene. If
you would like to weigh in with your thoughts, give
us a call eight at eight to three to one
crime or hit us on the talk pack message. And

(01:13:24):
right now Joseph Scott Morgan is going through the details
of this document. Dumb body, Did you have anything up
next that you wanted to get into.

Speaker 5 (01:13:35):
One thing I thought that was interesting was just how
great of notes that this lab tech took. I thought
she did a great job. When when you see it
the picture of the knife face up, okay, you can
see the button snap okay, And this button snap is
so critically important to this entire case, like it all
comes fielded this button snap, right, that's where they found

(01:13:57):
this unknown male DNA and the lab tech if you
look at the photos, she says, okay, these are areas
that I swabbed, and she polar codes them. So, for instance,
the button snap is item one dot one and she
outlines it in purple. Okay, so and she calls this
to handle portion and then uh, and then she swabs

(01:14:20):
and then she starts swabbing the edge, all the edges,
and everything's polar coded. So she makes just great notes.
And I kind of wanted to read what, uh the
lab results were for item one dot one, which was
the button snap and what eventually ended up being Brian
Coberger's DNA if that was a So what it says
is item one dot one. Again, this is a swab

(01:14:42):
of the front strap, the button snap area. There was
no blood. The DNA from one dot one. The DNA
profile obtained from item one dot one was determined to
be from an unknown male Ethan Chapin. And then and
then there's an area blacked out and and another area
blacked out. I'm guessing those are two other names that

(01:15:03):
they excluded. It says Ethan Chapin redacted redacted are not
the source of DNA. And this item. This DNA profile
was entered into the Combined DNA Index System CODIS to
be routinely searched against this against the database, the case
agency will be notified in the event of a profile match. Well, again,

(01:15:24):
Brian Coberger didn't really have a criminal history, so he
wasn't in Cotis, so there was no match. But it
clearly says there that Ethan and two other men that
probably they suspected were excluded. And then it goes on
to explain the other either the other swab areas, and
those are the edges on the handle portion of the
knife sheath. And then one dot three is the edges

(01:15:48):
on the blade portion of the knife sheath. And then
item one dot four are the stains, the bloodstains on
the back of the knife sheath. Okay, And I wanted
to read that because this has been a thing that's
been coming up and I I want to be clear
about it. The DNA profile attained from item one dot four. Again,
this is the blood on the back of the sheath. Okay.
One dot four indicates a mixture of DNA with a

(01:16:11):
major profile which matches that obtained from the known reference
sample of Hailey consolves Madison Mogan is a potential contributor
to the minor component of this mixture. Ethan Chapin, Xana Kernodle,
and then there's redacted information are excluded as contributors to

(01:16:31):
this DNA mixture. So to be clear, the only two
victims had that had DNA on this knife sheath were,
in fact Kaylee and Maddie. Xana and Ethan are excluded
from this. So there's no blood from Xana or Ethan
or any other DNA on this knife sheet that belonging
to anybody else.

Speaker 6 (01:16:51):
So what's the implication there?

Speaker 5 (01:16:54):
There is no implication, but there has been things that
have people have said that all four victims were.

Speaker 4 (01:17:03):
Yeah, it does go to exclusion, and that's the most important.
You can't say, okay, we cannot sit here and say,
based upon the n I sheet that the n I
sheet did not move, okay, But what we can say
is that because of the absence of those profiles that
were excluded, we can assume Ethan was excluded, and we

(01:17:27):
have Xenna that was excluded, and we're talking about the
sheet itself right there. You know, the idea was that
somebody had foisted this idea that you know, those those
elements were on there and they weren't. They weren't there,
So that means that that sheep may very well have
been in a static position out there in that room

(01:17:49):
and it never moved from there.

Speaker 10 (01:17:51):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:17:51):
Thank you, Joseph, Yeah, thank you so much for helping
clarify and shed light and really just pinpoint what all
of this information means in actual terms we can understand.

Speaker 2 (01:18:03):
We thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:18:03):
As always, Sunday is our collective favorite night and we
are so happy to share it with.

Speaker 2 (01:18:08):
You and listen.

Speaker 3 (01:18:12):
If you like getting into the forensic nitty gritty of
true crime cases, please check out Joseph's amazing podcast, Body Bags,
and also you can find Joseph at Joseph Scott Morgan
on Instagram and give us a call if you want
to chat. In the next segment, eight to day through
on Crime, we are talking True crime all the time

(01:18:34):
by Joseph. This is True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We
are talking true crime all the time. I'm Courtney Armstrong
here with Body Boot. Joseph Scott Morgan has left the building.

Speaker 2 (01:18:58):
But he will be back on Sunday.

Speaker 3 (01:19:01):
Don't forget if you missed any part of the show,
just catch the podcast, and we want to hear from you.
We're at eight of eight three one crime and let's
actually go right to a talkback.

Speaker 14 (01:19:12):
Okay, this is Drey and Newtag again. You guys. Now
you're on to talking about a talk back where how
did you get into true crime or whatnot? And Courtney
brought up, Hey, scar Putto, which is the character in
Prituia Cornwell books. Love them, Love them, love them. But
a little fun fact. Unless I'm wrong, and I could
be remembering this wrong, but I don't think I am.

(01:19:33):
If I remember right, Patricia Cornwell was a medical examiner.
So I'm going to look it up. You guys can
go look it up. Reconvene tomorrow.

Speaker 5 (01:19:42):
Okay, you're going to have to talk to me about
who this is Patricia Cornwall.

Speaker 3 (01:19:46):
Okay, I she's an author, Okay, and she wrote these
books and they actually were like her main character was
Case Scarpetta, who was a medical examiner, as our girl
just said in the talk back, and she was not
actually AVA can double check me, but to my knowledge

(01:20:06):
she was not, in fact a medical examiner.

Speaker 2 (01:20:10):
Herself is a Cornwell.

Speaker 3 (01:20:11):
But she wrote these books, these novels that are so
scientifically saturated. You'd actually, I think you'd really enjoy body.
Oh they started. I used to gobble them up. And
they were originally inspired by the series of really sensational
murders that happened in Richmond, Virginia. Most of her stories

(01:20:33):
are set there. She's the chief medical examiner, but you
also get deeply into the investigation of these crimes. Oh,
I'd love that for Yeah. First one is post mortem.
Second one's body of evidence, top of my head. And
there's a bunch and they're all rich and fabulous.

Speaker 5 (01:20:49):
And I used to love to read. I would read
all the time, and then I don't know what happened.
But I barely have time anymore, and so I'm like, well,
I'll listen to audiobooks. Well, you know, I live of
like ten minutes for my write work, so I don't
really have like a commute, right, so I don't really
have the opportunity to listen to an audiobook or read.
So it's like, maybe while I'm just sitting there at

(01:21:11):
work and whatnot, I can maybe listen to an audible
or something, because that sounds right at my alley.

Speaker 2 (01:21:16):
It's really it's excellent.

Speaker 15 (01:21:19):
And she herself was not a medical examiner. Okay, she
studied English, she was a writer, but I guess she
just had an amazing knowledge of forensic science.

Speaker 3 (01:21:33):
And yeah, well what I just pulled up, which I'm
not sure this is right, but I'm seeing that she
actually did work at the Virginia Medical Examiner's office, and
it was as a technical writer and a computer analyst
for those six years.

Speaker 5 (01:21:47):
So it's kind of like me, I'm an analyst for
a casino, and while I don't operate the games, you know,
I know a lot about gaming. So she might have
learned a lot about medical being in a medical examiner
by doing the data analysis and writing these reports.

Speaker 3 (01:22:02):
Yeah, and it seems like that part of her experience
was observing some autopsies. But the character that she I
don't have to do that created. Do you with the gaming?
Do you watch video I'm not being physicatious. Do you
watch videos of people playing poker?

Speaker 2 (01:22:20):
Or no?

Speaker 5 (01:22:21):
Okay, I just analyzed the data that comes from like
the game, the slot machines and like got it. Like
if you're if you're playing a blackjack, let's say how
many bets per hand? You you do? Your average bet?
And things like yeah, where you live and then you
correlate that with public big data to say how much
you're worth.

Speaker 7 (01:22:41):
Wow, so interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:22:43):
That's not well dress.

Speaker 5 (01:22:47):
To me, this is interesting. Okay, So yeah, let's.

Speaker 3 (01:22:50):
Well, Drey, thank you so much, thank you, thank you.

Speaker 5 (01:22:56):
Let's do it.

Speaker 16 (01:22:57):
Hello, it's a Leah. Just to follow up, and yes,
I was talking about coburger with the diet in jail comment.

Speaker 2 (01:23:06):
I more mean, like.

Speaker 16 (01:23:08):
If it's an eating disorder, you do need to treat it,
but you're not just going to treat it by only
catering to what they want to eat. You need to
treat it psychologically and basically give them a much limited
choice of foods that they can have. One more clarification
to add to my opinion on the coburger eating in
jail situation. I was listening to the color and about

(01:23:30):
our fit and her having a son. Now, when I
was raised, they didn't diagnose girls with things like autism
and ar fin and all this stuff. But I'm pretty
sure I have something like that, or I know I
have severe, severe food anxiety, to the point where I
could actually end up in complete tears and not eating

(01:23:52):
at all if I can't decide on something to eat
or the options that I have aren't appetizing to me
or I don't want them. And it was a constant
fight with my parents to make me eat food when
I was a kid. So I totally get it, and
I still have the opinion that I have. Thanks you, guys,
I love you so much.

Speaker 2 (01:24:12):
Alia.

Speaker 5 (01:24:12):
I'm so sorry that you're struggling with the food though.
And you know what's interesting is I have a little
bit of knowledge about this, Alia, is that women, you
know you were talking about, they don't really diagnose women
with these things. You know, well back then they were
observing us as women and putting on how you know
men react, Well, guess what, women react differently? Women? We

(01:24:37):
present differently with these things, like if the autism and
maybe even are fit. I'm not sure, but I know
for autism in ADHD for sure, because when she told
me fifteen years ago that I had aspergers, I was like,
a pardon me what? Because alls I could think of
was rain man. You know what I mean? Women present
differently Now. It's called autism spectrum disorder because the asper

(01:25:00):
is a really bad connotation. So it's autism spectrum disorder.
And you could have knocked me over with a like
a feather. I was like, what are you talking about.
It's because women present differently, So make sure that if
you think that you have something that you press your doctors,
because they're judging you based on how men present. Very
interesting to know that I had no idea anyway. Yes,

(01:25:23):
you're right, I'm just going on a tangent. You're right.
It is going to be important for Brian Coberg to
have some kind of exposure therapy, right, Like, he's got
this this eating disorder, and I do think exposing him
to the foods that, you know, maybe he's adverse to
would help. But I think just putting in a tray
of food that he won't eat is just not going

(01:25:45):
to help. That's just my opinion though, but I do
respect your opinion.

Speaker 3 (01:25:50):
Yeah, and thanks for calling in and sharing that information.
We really appreciate it. Shelly Hear another talk back.

Speaker 9 (01:25:57):
Yeah, Hi True Crime tonight. This is Christine Grand Alberta, Canada.
I am not wearing my hot dog costume today. Listening
to your most recent podcast, I have somehow adopted bodies
terms of willy nilly and any who. And my year

(01:26:17):
old son said, where are you getting this term willy
nilly from? Why are you saying it all the time?
I had to laugh.

Speaker 5 (01:26:25):
Oh my gosh. You know what that reminds me of?

Speaker 2 (01:26:26):
That's a riot? Yes, what are you guys?

Speaker 5 (01:26:28):
Did any of you guys watch Seinfeld?

Speaker 2 (01:26:30):
Yes?

Speaker 5 (01:26:31):
Yes, Okay, so there's an episode. There's an episode where
George breaks up with his girlfriend because she YadA yada's sex. Okay,
what that means is she she said, you know, I
was talking to Joe and then YadA YadA. I woke
up the next morning. Anyway, it irritated him, so he
broke up with her. And Elaine was like, oh, I've
done that before. YadA YadA is something. Anyway, I picked

(01:26:53):
that up from Seinfeld, and so I've done that too,
where people say things and I just get just I
don't know, whatever tickles my fancy and I pick it up. Anyway.
Welcome to the club of the crazy sayings.

Speaker 2 (01:27:05):
That's adorable and AnyWho.

Speaker 5 (01:27:10):
I'm sorry, I'm sorry your kids that you've you've got
onto mind.

Speaker 2 (01:27:15):
No, it's a riot.

Speaker 4 (01:27:16):
There.

Speaker 2 (01:27:16):
There are worse things to pick up, that is for sure.
Let's grab another one.

Speaker 17 (01:27:21):
Right, Okay, guys, I just heard your response to the
cheese saga that continues. This is Julia from South Carolina,
and I think you are extremely mixed up.

Speaker 14 (01:27:37):
I think you're thinking.

Speaker 17 (01:27:38):
Of cheese whizz and not cheese. It's really impossible to
have an initial stable format. But anyways, try cheese from
the cold section.

Speaker 5 (01:27:56):
And here we go again.

Speaker 17 (01:27:58):
Take care.

Speaker 5 (01:28:00):
Oh gosh, no, you know, here's the thing. The pimento
cheese that I'm talking about was not in the refrigerator. Okay.
It was in a glass jar with a blue lid,
and it was pimento cheese. Now it's pub cheese and
it's not the same, okay, And I understand what you're saying.
This it's not shelf stable. But guess what. It was
full of chemicals. It wasn't real pimento cheese, right, you

(01:28:20):
know what I mean. This isn't real stuff. It's like
the the coffee creamer you get that you don't have
to keep in the refrigerator. It's not real, you know
what I mean? And so you know what I'm going
to ask if we can post a picture of the
pimento cheese jar that I'm talking about on our Instagram.
Follow us on our Instagram. At True Crime Tonight's show,
I'm going to beg Gabe to post a picture of

(01:28:42):
the pimento cheese. I'm talking, that's a blueto exactly what
is a glass jars? It says pimento cheese on.

Speaker 2 (01:28:51):
It, right, CARDI absolutely I didn't like.

Speaker 5 (01:28:55):
I didn't make it up. And listen, it's not shelf
stable because it's not real. It's all artificial. But it
just tastes so delicious and they don't make Maybe it
was like maybe there's something in there that causes cancer
or something. That's why they don't make it anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:29:07):
Oh my goodness, delicious.

Speaker 5 (01:29:08):
It was delicious.

Speaker 3 (01:29:09):
Well, I mean, this pimento cheese is like the the
unfurling mystery that we can really is.

Speaker 5 (01:29:16):
The people that I'm making it up. I'm telling you this.

Speaker 2 (01:29:19):
Isn't some cheese.

Speaker 5 (01:29:23):
Oh my goodness, stop there there's one more.

Speaker 2 (01:29:25):
Let's hear it.

Speaker 5 (01:29:25):
Let's hear it.

Speaker 7 (01:29:26):
Let's just put this to rest.

Speaker 5 (01:29:27):
Let's let's do it.

Speaker 10 (01:29:29):
Well.

Speaker 2 (01:29:29):
I don't watch you.

Speaker 18 (01:29:30):
I listened to you every single day at work with
my headphones, and all this pimento cheese talk made me
want to try pimento cheese because I've never had it,
but I found it. I found it by the cream
cheese in the refrigerated section, and I a still got
the chicken biscuit crackers, and I can't wait to get

(01:29:52):
home and try it.

Speaker 2 (01:29:53):
Love you guys. Bye?

Speaker 5 (01:29:55):
Did she did she leave us another one to see
if she liked it? This is my this is what
I'm looking for. Swiman's lip, your dreams Ione was living
my dream. I listen, if did you try it? Call
us back and let us know. Eight at eight thirty
one crime. I'm dying to know if you liked it.
This is this is what I'm craving. The pimento cheese
in the She didn't get the one I'm looking for

(01:30:15):
because my stuff in the fridge, my stuff's on a shelf,
and the potato chip okay, but they don't make it
no more. But that's what I want so bad, the
pimento cheese, the artificial stuff on the chicken, and the
biscuit cracker there it's so delicious. Oh my god, it's
so good.

Speaker 3 (01:30:30):
I love that you just heard us talking and how
pimento cheese has become this, you know, juggernaut is it's
truly escape to my imagination.

Speaker 2 (01:30:40):
Yet here we are have.

Speaker 5 (01:30:41):
The weighted best on the compression bag. Yeah, you just
you never know what you're going to talk about. That
taste off. It just do strange thing.

Speaker 3 (01:30:47):
But I love so much that you heard bodies passion
and went out And yeah, we really do want to
hear what else you got?

Speaker 2 (01:30:56):
Talk back? Tuesday is coming up. We have two days
until it. We take yours.

Speaker 3 (01:31:00):
Obviously, we want to hear from you every day of
the week, but particularly Tuesdays, and yeah, we keep them coming.

Speaker 5 (01:31:06):
And yeah, what do you watch and what do you like?
Is there a new show that you're watching that we
need to know about? Is there a case you want
us to look at? Did you find the pimento cheese
with the blue top and the glass jar and the
potato chip aisle? Let us know, give us a talkback.
We want to hear from it. We're going to be
going over all of them on Tuesday.

Speaker 2 (01:31:22):
Do you know what I watched a part of this weekend?
Is All Her Fault? Have you guys heard about that?

Speaker 4 (01:31:31):
No?

Speaker 2 (01:31:32):
So it's scripted, and where the heck is it on?

Speaker 3 (01:31:36):
I'm watching it on Peacock, but I'm sure it's on
something else. And it's a really interesting upper class picture
anything Nicole Kidman is in sort of if anyone has
seen Big Little Eyes, which is fun.

Speaker 5 (01:31:53):
I believe it.

Speaker 3 (01:31:53):
Okay, that's the pinnacle. All Her Fault is very good.
But it's really that's the genre, and it's the actors
are phenomenal. It's the redhead from Succession.

Speaker 2 (01:32:06):
It's love.

Speaker 3 (01:32:08):
I want to say Elle Fanning, but I got sucked in. Yeah,
Sarah Shook, she's the one from Succession. It's Dakota Fanning.
Excuse me, Michael.

Speaker 5 (01:32:19):
Pen Oh, oh really, I didn't know that Dakota Fanning.

Speaker 6 (01:32:27):
They were producers on the Ellen Greenberg documentary that we
watched for True Crime and chill.

Speaker 5 (01:32:32):
Oh wow, I didn't know that. They did a good job.

Speaker 7 (01:32:34):
So wow, they're amazing.

Speaker 5 (01:32:36):
Yeah, really good.

Speaker 7 (01:32:39):
I thought that was.

Speaker 2 (01:32:42):
But anyway, it was. It was a good watch I got.
I did not expect to get sucked in.

Speaker 3 (01:32:46):
They popped to the top, and I honestly immediately was oh.
And actually Abby Elliott, who plays an important sister in
this who also plays a sister on The Bear. So
I got sucked in when I saw the people and
I'm like, okay, let's find it.

Speaker 5 (01:32:59):
Andy and I Indian and I started watching Pluribus on
Apple TV. I can't get in there's only two episodes
so far, but basically everyone on the planet except for
like twelve people become a hive mind. We've been invaded.

Speaker 2 (01:33:11):
Yes, I watched this last night.

Speaker 5 (01:33:13):
Yeah, it's good.

Speaker 2 (01:33:13):
Right, it's the first episode.

Speaker 5 (01:33:16):
Totally freaked me out.

Speaker 2 (01:33:18):
It's so good.

Speaker 5 (01:33:19):
I watched both of them. It was really good, but
it made me feel.

Speaker 7 (01:33:23):
Guy right.

Speaker 5 (01:33:24):
Yes, it's vibe breaking back. It takes place, it stops
off in New Mexico. It's very breaking that. It is
so good. I definitely recommend it. But there is a
horn is that she's so good. She's so good. Better
calls all and oh yeah, it's excellent. You guys like
it's really good. It's called Pluribus on Apple TV. But
it's a little sci fi, little drama, a little fatalistic,

(01:33:46):
but it's interesting. It's very interesting. I love it.

Speaker 3 (01:33:50):
Yeah, okay, that's a that's yeah, no no, because Eva,
it is time, my darling, to say good night. And
we were so glad to have you here and be
a little drunk with power in producer taha, see if
you did a fine.

Speaker 7 (01:34:10):
Taha say, and palm springs.

Speaker 2 (01:34:12):
I like it here, Oh my goodness, she's gone for you.

Speaker 3 (01:34:15):
Well, listen everybody, goodnight, thanks for joining us. And tomorrow
we're going to be talking about the mother of nine
year old Melody Buzzard and her arrest.

Speaker 2 (01:34:25):
That and much more.

Speaker 3 (01:34:26):
We've got some Prince Andrew that more true crime tonight,
Happy Sunday.

Speaker 2 (01:34:29):
Goodnight,

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