August 13, 2024 • 33 mins
After a big reveal on the RHONJ finale, Jackie shares why her and Teresa have decided to forgive each other and move forward in their friendship.
Plus, she is joined by therapist Melissa Reich, M.A. to get a clinical perspective on why forgiveness is so hard for so many people, including some cast mates.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hey guys, I'm Jackie Goldschneider and welcome to my new podcast.
It's a limited series where we are talking about what's
really going to let you live your best life in
middle age. So we're talking from beauty products to procedures,
to the diet industry, health trends. We're going to discuss
what anyone can do to make themselves feel good in
middle age. And I'm not a doctor, I'm not a yogi.
(00:23):
I'm just a middle aged woman trying to live a good,
happy life and I have tried it all and I
wonder about it all. But part of living your best
life involves mental health, of course also, and that's where
we're going to start this first episode with a topic
that's been really central to my life for the past year,
and that's forgiveness. So let's talk about the elephant in
(00:46):
the room, right. The Real Housewives of New Jersey finale
aired recently, and among the many other fights, there's a
revelation that back when Teresa and I were at war,
I spoke to Louis X. So I will not deny that.
Of course I did it. I take ownership of it.
His ex came to me, she said I have information
about him that you could use to fight back. At
(01:09):
that time, I was shattered. I needed something to fight
back with aside from crying, like all I had was tears,
and I met with his ex less than an hour.
The information that she gave me was not much of anything. Now,
there were other cast members speaking to her as well,
and whether they'd like to admit it or not, they
(01:29):
know what they were doing. But it doesn't take away
from the fact that I also did it. So I
own that now. Teresa, for her part, she did about
a terrible rumor about my husband, and at that time
that was devastating to me. It was devastating to Evan,
it was devastating to our family. So to hurt each
other instead, Teresa and I hurt each other's husbands. So
(01:51):
fast forward to this season. Teresa says she's using me
for dirt on Margaret, which was hurtful. She was told
that I was using her to sell my book, which
was also hurtful. And we have just both heard each
other so many times. We've been vicious to each other
for so many years, and yet we chose to forgive
(02:11):
each other and to move forward. And a lot of
people are really really uncomfortable with that. My castmates social media.
There are so many people that are so uncomfortable with
the fact that we are willing to forgive each other
and move forward. And yet, to me, and I can
only speak for myself, it felt right. It felt like
(02:34):
letting go of all of that pain and that hurt
and that want for revenge, that looking to destroy it
felt like by letting go of that, it felt like
I was adding a lot of peace to my life
and moving past all of that. Now, we weren't just
pretending it didn't happen. Theresa and I got together with
our husbands, we talked about it off camera. We apologize
(02:57):
to each other for it, we apologize to each other's
husban bins, and we decided to move forward. And you know,
the byproduct of that is a really nice friendship that
continues to grow off camera. But I do have a
million questions based on the premise of forgiveness. And you know,
we're middle aged, right, we're on the back seven and
(03:19):
I see the value in a peaceful life.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
But the biggest.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Question that I have now is are we kidding ourselves? Like?
Can you really move past so many years of hatred?
And strife without resentment just bubbling under the surface. Can
you truly forgive and move past all of that history
(03:44):
after so many years of hate? So now, guys, these
shows are supposed to be about, you know, moving forward
and starting over and forgiving and refresh and I've always
tried to do that, but you know, we're hitting a
lot of resistance. So I'm going to bring in the best.
Not only is she the best therapist, but she knows
(04:06):
every single thing about Bravo. My guest today is Melissa Reich.
She's a therapist, She's a Brava holic. She earned a
BA in psychology from Penn State and an EME in
clinical psychology from LaSalle University. Her favorite area of practice
is working with trauma survivors and chronic health issues. She
has survived ovarian cancer, She's currently managing chronic lymphoma lekemia,
(04:30):
along with several other major chronic health conditions. But she
is she just has you know, the best advice always
and season three of Your Bitch Therapists podcast just launch,
where she's recapping right now. She's recapping rhoc and she
in her podcast, she talks about clinical interpretations of the
(04:50):
drama happening on real high swives. So who's better to
bring in for today? So let's bring in Melissa and
we will. I have a million questions for her. Hi Melissa, Hi, Honeyway,
It's so good to see you again. Thank you for
joining me today.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Of course, thank you for having me. I'm honored to
be back. It's good to see you. Good to see
you too.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
So I just gave a little spiel where I told
the listeners that, you know, this season, obviously it came
out that I spoke to Louis's X. I did that
at a time when I was really shattered. I needed
something to come back at Teresa with besides my tears,
and you know, at this season, and then fast forward
(05:36):
to this season, she said she was using me, she
was told I was using her. There's just been a
really long history of heart and hatred and revenge, and
for me letting go of all of that and moving
forward and us choosing to forgive each other, it felt
very much like I was adding a lot of peace
to my life. But we were also met with a
(05:57):
lot of resistance from my cast, from social media, from
a lot of people were really uncomfortable with the concept
of us moving forward. So my breggest question, and I
have so many questions, but my biggest question about forgiveness
is this, are we kidding ourselves or can you truly
move forward forgive and move forward from a past filled
(06:17):
with so much strife?
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Yeah, the short answer is yes, and I will share
you know. So, in preparation for this podcast, I did
a lot of research on There's something called forgiveness psychology.
There's a whole psychology behind what is forgiveness, and so forgiveness,
you know, there's an APA definition that it's a voluntary
(06:43):
transformations of your thoughts, feelings, attitudes, and behaviors. Because there's
a saying in the program of AA I worked in
impatient treatment for a long time and holding onto anger
and resentment is like drinking poison and wanting somebody else
to die. Right, So there is a lot of research
to support the fact that true forgiveness is possible. It
(07:08):
does require a couple of things to happen though, But
in reality, forgiveness is really for us. It's not for
the other person. It's not for your cast members, it's
not for social media. It's for Jackie, right, Because research
shows that when we hold on to anger and resentment.
(07:32):
There are physical and mental health components to that where
it can lead to heart disease and all these other things.
All this research is telling us that holding onto this
is so unhealthy for us. So for you to say
that you felt peace letting it go, that jives with
exactly what the research says. And I think that a
(07:54):
lot of folks doubted whether it was sincere. However, that
doesn't really matter because forgiveness is for you, So if
it's sincere for you, it doesn't matter what the rest
of the world thinks, right, because it's about your health
and your peace and your mental health and wellness, if
that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
I love that because it's true, and I did it
did bother me when people doubted it because I knew
it was real. But yeah, I mean the way that
it made me feel was so much more relaxed when
I was in a room with Teresa, to not have
that hatred even at the beginning. But how do you
get to a point where there is not going to
(08:37):
be resentment bubbling under the surface, where you're not always
thinking about it or waiting for the next shoe to drop,
or waiting for something bad to happen.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Yeah, that's a great question, because you know, forgiveness is
something that it's such a it's a topic that a
lot of folks bristle at because the true transformation happened
here and here, so in our hearts and in our minds.
But there's a couple of pieces to this that I'll
(09:07):
explain from a psychological perspective that has to be present
to really feel that forgiveness in your soul. So number
one is definitely gaining a more balanced view towards the
person who hurt us and the event right. Second is
decreasing negative thoughts or feelings towards the person by increasing
(09:30):
compassion and empathy. And the third is giving up the
right to punish. I think that's the biggest thing is
sometimes when people have wronged us, we want to punish them.
We want restitution, we want i'm sorries, we want all
these things. But the beauty of forgiveness is that, regardless
of what the other person is doing that's hurt us,
(09:51):
this is possible within our selves. One thing I will
say is that before you can genuinely forgive or reconcile,
because by the way, those are two different things, forgiveness
doesn't mean reconciliation, and reconciliation doesn't mean forgiveness. That's a
whole other complex topic. But I do want to say
(10:11):
that safety is required to really feel this transformative sense
of forgiveness, because you can't our brain and our bodies
prioritize survival at basic levels physiologically speaking. So before we forgive,
we do have to feel that. And so I'm hearing
(10:32):
that you felt a sense of peace and safety and understanding,
and that led you to a place with her. We
can't speak for her because she's not here, but for you,
that led you to a place of Okay, we can
move past this.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
What you said about seeing another side to the person.
For me, for many years, I only saw this cast
member as somebody who was my nemesis, right, and then
once forgiveness started to happen, I saw her more as
a mother. And only speaking for myself, I'm not saying
(11:17):
what she feels towards me. I'm saying what I felt
towards her was I saw her as a mother. I
saw her as a wife, as somebody just trying to
also make a living and raise her children. And I
think that helped me go a long way towards really
seeing the situation differently and having empathy. Something else I've
wondered about is, you know, I'm a people pleaser. I
(11:40):
have been for a long time, and I sometimes have wondered,
and I really like this new friendship. I think it's great.
That being said, I wondered at times whether this need
to or this desire to make up with her was
part of the people pleaser in me, just wanting people
to like me, and how much of it was really
(12:02):
because I wanted to see if there was a friendship there. Right.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
That's such a great question. And one thing that I
can appreciate about what you're doing right now is the
self reflection tells me from a psychological standpoint that you
really are working truly on forgiveness at a basic level,
because everything that I hear you saying, it's about you,
(12:30):
and you know, there is nothing bad that can happen
when we really take a good, hard look at ourselves.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Right.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
I'm a reform people pleaser too. Hi, nice to meet you,
And I think that that is a question that you
know you only you, and only you can answer. But
it's a really valid one because the thing that I
love about being a therapist is that you know, I've
watched people when you get aware into something that's been
(13:02):
a really significant issue for you throughout your life, it
stops becoming such an issue because you're aware of it
and you're working on it. And so in my estimation
for you, Jackie, that's all you can do. All you
can do is say what was this about for me?
How is this serving me now? And you reserve the
(13:22):
right to process and feel and change your mind as
you need to. But one of the things I wanted
to say is that you just described one of the
really important pieces of forgiveness, which is, you know, accepting
your role in you know, am I being a people pleaser?
(13:44):
Or you know, do I really genuinely want to do this?
Shifting perspectives and empathy and compassion. Right, So, those are
some really important parts of forgiveness. But the one thing
Shanna Shapiro, she wrote a book it's called Rewire Your Mind,
Discover the Science and Practice of Mindfulness from twenty twenty
(14:06):
and so there's something called radical responsibility that I feel
like I hear you getting to. So I'll explain that
radical responsibility is recognizing when our behaviors may be unhealthy
without self judgment and taking accountability and saying, okay, so
what was my role in this? How did I participate
(14:29):
in this toxicity? And I hear you, I legitimately hear
you doing all that, and in my estimation, that's kind
of all that you can do.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Great. I love that. Another big question that I have,
I have so many How can you forgive let go
of anger and hatred towards somebody who you know is
still projecting anger and hatred toward you. So let's say
I have a cast member who hates me, and I
(15:02):
feel that very strongly their hatred towards me. I have
stopped speaking negatively about this person, and I would like
to in the same way that it happened with Teresa.
I would like to let go of that anger and
hatred that I have towards this person. But I know
that on the flip side, they're still bad mouthing me
(15:22):
all the time. It's doing whatever they can to try
to make me look bad. How do I do it
on my end without knowing that the other person is
giving it back, because it makes it so much harder.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
It does you know that this is the hardest part
of forgiveness when the other party not only isn't sorry,
but they're doubling down or they're you know, really continuing
with the same types of behaviors. And so this is
where the toughest part of forgiveness comes in. But I
promise you it's possible, and once you start to kind
(15:57):
of work on it, you're gonna feel a piece or
what that other person is doing. So my honest thoughts
and feelings about that are like if if you know,
you're not my client, this is not therapy. But when
people come in and they have those similar questions, my
role is to have them examine where like we mentioned
(16:19):
the radical responsibility, So what is your part in that?
And then whatever your part is, that's all that you
can work on. Right when other people are choosing to
you know, make comments or denegrde us or whatever, we
can't control that. So number one part of this is
accepting that we can't control other people. And acceptance of
(16:42):
not having control is really difficult, and especially for right
that's a huge part of disordered eating right control and
so and for me, you know, I'm just mentioning that
because I would see a lot of people in recovery
from disordered eating struggle afterwards with this specific topic because
(17:02):
giving up control, and I'm going to be honest, I
struggle with that too. I have weekly therapy and I
talk about that all the time. So in the program
of AA, they talk about keeping your side of the
street clean. And so when it comes to forgiveness with
somebody who's not who's not engaging in that process you,
(17:25):
I would recommend feeling your feelings number one, because we
can't just move past something. We can't just say, oh,
I want to get over this, so let me forgive.
That's false forgiveness and that never ends well. So you
might just need to take your time to be mad,
to be frustrated, to feel grief over the loss of
that relationship as you knew it. Feel that, and then
(17:47):
work on keeping your side of the street clean. Like
you said, you're not doing any I don't want to curse,
you don't want to do any trash talking, right, You're
keeping your side of the street clean. That's kind of
all that you can do. And the rest I would
say to process, you know, in therapy, because you know,
(18:07):
and I'm not assuming you have a therapist, but if
you do, oh, I do Okay, I yes, you know,
they know you a lot better than I. But for me,
that's a process that happens in therapy, coming to terms
with it, grieving the because I think I hear some
feelings there. You know, you're you're not a robot, You're
a human being and you're hurt. So forgiving now it
(18:29):
might need some time and space, some self compassion, some
self care, accepting that you don't have control, and just
keeping your side of the street clean.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Yeah. So on that note, when you choose to forgive somebody,
whether or not it's reciprocal, why do you tell if
it's the type of French of forgiveness that you should
then try to work on growing the relationship, or whether
you should just forgive and move on. So, like Teresa
(18:58):
and I chose to forgive and try to be friends
and it worked, you know, and our husbands are good friends,
which helps. But like we get together, we go to dinner,
we talk on the phone, like it's a nice friendship.
We're not best friends, but we have a nice friendship.
And other people that I've chosen to forgive, my instinct
(19:18):
is like, oh I forgave, now let's be friends. But
I don't always think that's the best idea is And
how do you know is there a way to know
which kind of relationship it should be?
Speaker 2 (19:28):
That is such a great question and a really hard
one because, as I talked about before, there's a difference
between forgiveness and reconciliation and forgiveness and not reconciling. That's
essentially what we're talking about, right, So both are possible,
and it really truly depends on the people involved. I
(19:51):
always believe as a therapist that we have the answers
in our gut. We know what's best for ourselves, and
our gu is never wrong. The question is do we
listen to that? And you know, how do we how
how do we manage our boundaries? And you know me
(20:15):
and you know this whole it's just very complicated. So
I think my answer is, as long as you are
maintaining your dignity, respect, self compassion in your boundaries, you
can try reconciliation and if it doesn't feel right, then
it's not permanent, right you always we have to remember
(20:37):
that there's no decision we make that's permanent. We have
the right as humans to do what's best for us
and our sense of safety. So the long answer is
that it's hard to know, but I would say listen
to your gut. And the second part is outlining if
I'm trying this, how does this feel for me? I'm
(20:58):
a big feel girl, Like I'm a big you know,
if you're doing something, just notice how do you feel
when you're doing it? How does your body feel? Are
you tense? Do you feel nauseous? Like a tend to
those physiological warning signs that are telling you this is
how I'm feeling.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
Why are so many people and we can go right
specifically to this situation not on board with this reconciliation.
Is it because they don't think it's sincere or because
they just don't think that it's possible, Like I know
it's sincere. I don't need to do it for the camera.
(21:45):
I certainly the cameras have stopped rolling for a very
long time now. I don't need to fake anything. I
have a lot of really good friends in my life.
But is that what it is that they don't think
it's sincere or is there more to it? Why are
people so uncomfortable with people making up and moving forward?
Speaker 2 (22:02):
So this is a funny question for me because I'm
a fan of the show, right, and I know you.
I've been on the show before, and so I guess
I want to answer. So my therapist answer is that
I think exactly what you said that people just don't
buy it. But like you said, that's not for people
to buy because the one thing about being on reality
(22:24):
TV is that all the fans can guesstimate what you
all are feeling and experiencing. But only you know, only
you and Teresa know how you feel. So who the
heck is anyone else to tell you that? But so
that's my kind of therapist answer. My answer is a
fan is I think that people who've watched you for
a long time look at you and Teresa, I think
(22:50):
very differently, and so when people for me to see
that reconciliation and forgiveness when things had been so Tomas,
I think it lends itself to how real is this?
But at the same time, hearing what you're saying, which
(23:10):
I would have never gotten the opportunity to do just
as a fan, I feel completely different talking to you,
and I can say that right, I'm seeing you, I'm
hearing you, and that's something that the fans don't really
get to do because we all know reality TV isn't
really real. There's snippets, there's editing, there's this, and there's that.
So being able for you to use your voice and
(23:32):
to say this is real, I'm doing this for me.
You know, you're healing and you're in a place of recovery,
and if I'm being honest, I think that is par
for the course. When you're trying to heal and recover,
you're also trying to get rid of some of those
things in your life that create havoc. So that's kind
(23:54):
of my answer for that, and I just think you can't.
You have to do what's best for Jackie, because at
the end of the day, when you lay your head
on the pillow, it's you right. And I do fight this.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
I feel compelled sometimes to prove to people that it's real,
and I don't want to feel that because that's not
I know inside. That's not my job. And as long
as I'm okay and I feel it, that's what matters.
But you know, part of me still feels like I
don't like people second guessing me. But again that goes
(24:34):
back to the people please a part, and I think
what was difficult for me in all of this was
that for a long time, I just wanted the public
to see me as nice as a mom, as a writer,
as somebody who recovered from an eating disorder. And I
think this season, there's a part of me that I
try to keep hidden, which was this part that seeks revenge,
(24:57):
this part that does get really angry sometimes times and
can be a little shady and sneaky, And that came
out and I was really really embarrassed about it. But
I've had a lot of time to process it, and
I think that it's okay to be a layered person.
It's okay to be a flawed person. And I never
(25:18):
wanted to be seen as flawed, and I am seen
as flawed. So in the same vein as me giving
up that control of what my persona was to the public,
I have to give up that need to make people
believe that it's real. As long as I am okay
with it's and and Thereesa's okay on her end, I
don't need to convince anybody that's right.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
So, since this is a mental health podcast and not
mental health podcast, this podcast is about This is my
own limited series about what's going to lead you to
live your best life in middle age. And it's also
about like the diet industry, the health industry, beauty wellness,
but part of it is mental health. So what, just
(26:02):
really quickly, what does holding on to hatred and anger
due to you physiologically? And what is the benefit of
getting rid of it?
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Okay, I have lots of info on that. So forgiveness
has been shown to elevate mood, enhance optimism, and guard
against anger, stress, anxiety, and depression. Harboring anger and resentment
leads the body to release stress hormones such as cortisol
and adrenaline even when you're thinking of the person, which
that's pretty significant. That's what this research says. Even if
(26:35):
you're bringing up that person who you were talking about before, right,
even when you think is your heart beating a little faster?
You're getting all the Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
I have times when I'm taking a shower and I'm like, God,
I just spent the last ten minutes with the water running,
like having a fake fight in my head.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Well it's crazy. Well it's not crazy, it's just you're human, right,
and we do this because you know what you talked
about before, essentially was impression and management right, we want
people to like us and to you know, all these
other things. So I think your first step in forgiveness
is something we haven't talked about, which is self forgiveness
and self compassion. Because what you're talking about is part
(27:17):
of being human.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Right.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
We all have good and bad parts. We all have
parts to us that are you know, shady and vengeful
and all these things. That's just part of being human.
But what happens is a steady stream of those chemicals
that I just mentioned leads to long term nervous systems smoldering,
(27:39):
which can lead to long term you know, autoimmune issues,
skin issues, ration, you know, unexplained things that you know,
if you go to a doctor as a woman, they'll
tell you that you're crazy, but you're not, because there's
there's a book called The Body Keeps the Score, and
(27:59):
what how weapons is our bodies are in our mental health.
They're not two separate entities, they're one being. So when
we're holding onto anger and resentment, we're legitimately having this
physiological response which then impacts mental health and physical health
and spiritual health. If I'm being honest, you know, it
(28:20):
starts to shift your perspective of being more vengeful versus
being self compassionate. Right, you know firsthand how it can
lead you down a dark path. So I think that
for you, Jackie, and for a lot of folks listening,
self compassion is really important because what you're talking about
there's shame and guilt. Sometimes that's appropriate, right, we need
(28:42):
to sometimes feel shame and guilt for stuff that we've
done wrong. However, what I think you're getting into is
toxic shame and guilt, which is it's not helpful because,
like you said, it becomes you self flagellate. You know,
there's anger, there's frustrating, it's coming from a different spot.
(29:02):
Whereas if you were to be more self compassionate and say, okay, listen,
I messed up. Now what am I going to do
about it? Because what I'm hearing you say is Okay,
I messed up, So what am I going to do
about it? I'm going to do this podcast. I'm going
to admit my wrongdoings. I'm going to accept radical responsibility,
and I'm going to work on compassion and empathy. And
(29:24):
so for me, I'm not joking and this. You know,
people listening to this are probably going to be like, oh, she's,
you know, just trying to make Jackie feel better. But
everything that I have written.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
I feel okay, good exactly not a while. Do accept
this and to live with it and let it oh
right right? Right?
Speaker 2 (29:41):
So? But I mean you really are psychologically speaking, you're
doing the work. You're walking the walk to do that
hard work for you and the betterment of your family
and like you said, for your peace, because with the
health issues that you've had, you got to be really
careful that toxic shame and guilt doesn't bring you back
to a dark place because it's so easy and how
(30:04):
quickly that can happen, right.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Yeah, And I just want more piece in my life.
I don't I don't want to the degree I can
get rid of the toxicity. I want to. Melissa, you
are so brilliant. I wish I had you on speedl
Please tell everybody where they can find you and your podcast.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Thank you. I am you can find me your Bish
therapist podcast. Bish. You can find that podcast anywhere you
listen to pods at new episodes every week. My season
three premiere is actually on Tuesday, so I'm not sure
when this is airing, but I'm going to have a
whole bunch of new more episodes for everybody, and you
(30:45):
can also find me on Instagram at your bish Therapist
and on YouTube same name your bish Therapist.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Fabulous. Thank you so much. This was so great.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
This was great. Thank you for having me, Jackie. I
appreciate it. Thanks Melissa, talk to you soon. Take care, Okay,
boy bye. That was so good.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Because you know, I did have this this comfort inside
that people didn't believe me, that people thought that we
were just doing this for camera, and I didn't. I
knew that that wasn't true. And you know, giving I
think having permission to not worry about that, and having
permission to do what feels good for me without having
to explain it or justify it to other people that
(31:26):
it it just it makes me feel better about everything
as long as I'm okay with it. Listen, you can
only do you can only speak for yourself. You can
only do what makes you feel good. You can control
how other people react to you, and I think letting
go of that control has been really central to my
(31:47):
life for the past few years. You know, eating disorders
are all about control, and I've had to let go
of a lot of control over my body over my
eating habits and over what people think of me, and
all of that's been difficult. But I think having you know,
hearing her perspective and having that permission today was really great.
(32:08):
And also, you know, I know that there are still
people who hate me that I'd like to let go
of the hate for them. And I'm sure that everybody
has somebody like that in their life that they know
doesn't like them, and they they don't want to live
with that kind of hatred in their heart for the
other person, even if that is not going to be
a mutual decision. So knowing also that I have permission
(32:30):
to stop hating somebody else and to forgive somebody else
who is not going to stop hating me or not
going to you know, follow the same path as me,
that also feels good. So I am leaving today feeling
better than when I came into it, and I hope.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Everybody else is too.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
And I will see you for our next episode by now,
Hey guys, I'm Jackie Goldschneider and welcome to my new podcast.
It's a limited series where we are talking about what's
really going to let you live your best life in
middle age. So we're talking from beauty products to procedures,
to the diet industry, health trends. We're going to discuss
what anyone can do to make themselves feel good in
middle age. And I'm not a doctor, I'm not a yogi.
(00:23):
I'm just a middle aged woman trying to live a good,
happy life and I have tried it all and I
wonder about it all. But part of living your best
life involves mental health, of course also, and that's where
we're going to start this first episode with a topic
that's been really central to my life for the past year,
and that's forgiveness. So let's talk about the elephant in
(00:46):
the room, right. The Real Housewives of New Jersey finale
aired recently, and among the many other fights, there's a
revelation that back when Teresa and I were at war,
I spoke to Louis X. So I will not deny that.
Of course I did it. I take ownership of it.
His ex came to me, she said I have information
about him that you could use to fight back. At
(01:09):
that time, I was shattered. I needed something to fight
back with aside from crying, like all I had was tears,
and I met with his ex less than an hour.
The information that she gave me was not much of anything. Now,
there were other cast members speaking to her as well,
and whether they'd like to admit it or not, they
(01:29):
know what they were doing. But it doesn't take away
from the fact that I also did it. So I
own that now. Teresa, for her part, she did about
a terrible rumor about my husband, and at that time
that was devastating to me. It was devastating to Evan,
it was devastating to our family. So to hurt each
other instead, Teresa and I hurt each other's husbands. So
(01:51):
fast forward to this season. Teresa says she's using me
for dirt on Margaret, which was hurtful. She was told
that I was using her to sell my book, which
was also hurtful. And we have just both heard each
other so many times. We've been vicious to each other
for so many years, and yet we chose to forgive
(02:11):
each other and to move forward. And a lot of
people are really really uncomfortable with that. My castmates social media.
There are so many people that are so uncomfortable with
the fact that we are willing to forgive each other
and move forward. And yet, to me, and I can
only speak for myself, it felt right. It felt like
(02:34):
letting go of all of that pain and that hurt
and that want for revenge, that looking to destroy it
felt like by letting go of that, it felt like
I was adding a lot of peace to my life
and moving past all of that. Now, we weren't just
pretending it didn't happen. Theresa and I got together with
our husbands, we talked about it off camera. We apologize
(02:57):
to each other for it, we apologize to each other's
husban bins, and we decided to move forward. And you know,
the byproduct of that is a really nice friendship that
continues to grow off camera. But I do have a
million questions based on the premise of forgiveness. And you know,
we're middle aged, right, we're on the back seven and
(03:19):
I see the value in a peaceful life.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
But the biggest.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Question that I have now is are we kidding ourselves? Like?
Can you really move past so many years of hatred?
And strife without resentment just bubbling under the surface. Can
you truly forgive and move past all of that history
(03:44):
after so many years of hate? So now, guys, these
shows are supposed to be about, you know, moving forward
and starting over and forgiving and refresh and I've always
tried to do that, but you know, we're hitting a
lot of resistance. So I'm going to bring in the best.
Not only is she the best therapist, but she knows
(04:06):
every single thing about Bravo. My guest today is Melissa Reich.
She's a therapist, She's a Brava holic. She earned a
BA in psychology from Penn State and an EME in
clinical psychology from LaSalle University. Her favorite area of practice
is working with trauma survivors and chronic health issues. She
has survived ovarian cancer, She's currently managing chronic lymphoma lekemia,
(04:30):
along with several other major chronic health conditions. But she
is she just has you know, the best advice always
and season three of Your Bitch Therapists podcast just launch,
where she's recapping right now. She's recapping rhoc and she
in her podcast, she talks about clinical interpretations of the
(04:50):
drama happening on real high swives. So who's better to
bring in for today? So let's bring in Melissa and
we will. I have a million questions for her. Hi Melissa, Hi, Honeyway,
It's so good to see you again. Thank you for
joining me today.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Of course, thank you for having me. I'm honored to
be back. It's good to see you. Good to see
you too.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
So I just gave a little spiel where I told
the listeners that, you know, this season, obviously it came
out that I spoke to Louis's X. I did that
at a time when I was really shattered. I needed
something to come back at Teresa with besides my tears,
and you know, at this season, and then fast forward
(05:36):
to this season, she said she was using me, she
was told I was using her. There's just been a
really long history of heart and hatred and revenge, and
for me letting go of all of that and moving
forward and us choosing to forgive each other, it felt
very much like I was adding a lot of peace
to my life. But we were also met with a
(05:57):
lot of resistance from my cast, from social media, from
a lot of people were really uncomfortable with the concept
of us moving forward. So my breggest question, and I
have so many questions, but my biggest question about forgiveness
is this, are we kidding ourselves or can you truly
move forward forgive and move forward from a past filled
(06:17):
with so much strife?
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Yeah, the short answer is yes, and I will share
you know. So, in preparation for this podcast, I did
a lot of research on There's something called forgiveness psychology.
There's a whole psychology behind what is forgiveness, and so forgiveness,
you know, there's an APA definition that it's a voluntary
(06:43):
transformations of your thoughts, feelings, attitudes, and behaviors. Because there's
a saying in the program of AA I worked in
impatient treatment for a long time and holding onto anger
and resentment is like drinking poison and wanting somebody else
to die. Right, So there is a lot of research
to support the fact that true forgiveness is possible. It
(07:08):
does require a couple of things to happen though, But
in reality, forgiveness is really for us. It's not for
the other person. It's not for your cast members, it's
not for social media. It's for Jackie, right, Because research
shows that when we hold on to anger and resentment.
(07:32):
There are physical and mental health components to that where
it can lead to heart disease and all these other things.
All this research is telling us that holding onto this
is so unhealthy for us. So for you to say
that you felt peace letting it go, that jives with
exactly what the research says. And I think that a
(07:54):
lot of folks doubted whether it was sincere. However, that
doesn't really matter because forgiveness is for you, So if
it's sincere for you, it doesn't matter what the rest
of the world thinks, right, because it's about your health
and your peace and your mental health and wellness, if
that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
I love that because it's true, and I did it
did bother me when people doubted it because I knew
it was real. But yeah, I mean the way that
it made me feel was so much more relaxed when
I was in a room with Teresa, to not have
that hatred even at the beginning. But how do you
get to a point where there is not going to
(08:37):
be resentment bubbling under the surface, where you're not always
thinking about it or waiting for the next shoe to drop,
or waiting for something bad to happen.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Yeah, that's a great question, because you know, forgiveness is
something that it's such a it's a topic that a
lot of folks bristle at because the true transformation happened
here and here, so in our hearts and in our minds.
But there's a couple of pieces to this that I'll
(09:07):
explain from a psychological perspective that has to be present
to really feel that forgiveness in your soul. So number
one is definitely gaining a more balanced view towards the
person who hurt us and the event right. Second is
decreasing negative thoughts or feelings towards the person by increasing
(09:30):
compassion and empathy. And the third is giving up the
right to punish. I think that's the biggest thing is
sometimes when people have wronged us, we want to punish them.
We want restitution, we want i'm sorries, we want all
these things. But the beauty of forgiveness is that, regardless
of what the other person is doing that's hurt us,
(09:51):
this is possible within our selves. One thing I will
say is that before you can genuinely forgive or reconcile,
because by the way, those are two different things, forgiveness
doesn't mean reconciliation, and reconciliation doesn't mean forgiveness. That's a
whole other complex topic. But I do want to say
(10:11):
that safety is required to really feel this transformative sense
of forgiveness, because you can't our brain and our bodies
prioritize survival at basic levels physiologically speaking. So before we forgive,
we do have to feel that. And so I'm hearing
(10:32):
that you felt a sense of peace and safety and understanding,
and that led you to a place with her. We
can't speak for her because she's not here, but for you,
that led you to a place of Okay, we can
move past this.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
What you said about seeing another side to the person.
For me, for many years, I only saw this cast
member as somebody who was my nemesis, right, and then
once forgiveness started to happen, I saw her more as
a mother. And only speaking for myself, I'm not saying
(11:17):
what she feels towards me. I'm saying what I felt
towards her was I saw her as a mother. I
saw her as a wife, as somebody just trying to
also make a living and raise her children. And I
think that helped me go a long way towards really
seeing the situation differently and having empathy. Something else I've
wondered about is, you know, I'm a people pleaser. I
(11:40):
have been for a long time, and I sometimes have wondered,
and I really like this new friendship. I think it's great.
That being said, I wondered at times whether this need
to or this desire to make up with her was
part of the people pleaser in me, just wanting people
to like me, and how much of it was really
(12:02):
because I wanted to see if there was a friendship there. Right.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
That's such a great question. And one thing that I
can appreciate about what you're doing right now is the
self reflection tells me from a psychological standpoint that you
really are working truly on forgiveness at a basic level,
because everything that I hear you saying, it's about you,
(12:30):
and you know, there is nothing bad that can happen
when we really take a good, hard look at ourselves.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Right.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
I'm a reform people pleaser too. Hi, nice to meet you,
And I think that that is a question that you
know you only you, and only you can answer. But
it's a really valid one because the thing that I
love about being a therapist is that you know, I've
watched people when you get aware into something that's been
(13:02):
a really significant issue for you throughout your life, it
stops becoming such an issue because you're aware of it
and you're working on it. And so in my estimation
for you, Jackie, that's all you can do. All you
can do is say what was this about for me?
How is this serving me now? And you reserve the
(13:22):
right to process and feel and change your mind as
you need to. But one of the things I wanted
to say is that you just described one of the
really important pieces of forgiveness, which is, you know, accepting
your role in you know, am I being a people pleaser?
(13:44):
Or you know, do I really genuinely want to do this?
Shifting perspectives and empathy and compassion. Right, So, those are
some really important parts of forgiveness. But the one thing
Shanna Shapiro, she wrote a book it's called Rewire Your Mind,
Discover the Science and Practice of Mindfulness from twenty twenty
(14:06):
and so there's something called radical responsibility that I feel
like I hear you getting to. So I'll explain that
radical responsibility is recognizing when our behaviors may be unhealthy
without self judgment and taking accountability and saying, okay, so
what was my role in this? How did I participate
(14:29):
in this toxicity? And I hear you, I legitimately hear
you doing all that, and in my estimation, that's kind
of all that you can do.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Great. I love that. Another big question that I have,
I have so many How can you forgive let go
of anger and hatred towards somebody who you know is
still projecting anger and hatred toward you. So let's say
I have a cast member who hates me, and I
(15:02):
feel that very strongly their hatred towards me. I have
stopped speaking negatively about this person, and I would like
to in the same way that it happened with Teresa.
I would like to let go of that anger and
hatred that I have towards this person. But I know
that on the flip side, they're still bad mouthing me
(15:22):
all the time. It's doing whatever they can to try
to make me look bad. How do I do it
on my end without knowing that the other person is
giving it back, because it makes it so much harder.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
It does you know that this is the hardest part
of forgiveness when the other party not only isn't sorry,
but they're doubling down or they're you know, really continuing
with the same types of behaviors. And so this is
where the toughest part of forgiveness comes in. But I
promise you it's possible, and once you start to kind
(15:57):
of work on it, you're gonna feel a piece or
what that other person is doing. So my honest thoughts
and feelings about that are like if if you know,
you're not my client, this is not therapy. But when
people come in and they have those similar questions, my
role is to have them examine where like we mentioned
(16:19):
the radical responsibility, So what is your part in that?
And then whatever your part is, that's all that you
can work on. Right when other people are choosing to
you know, make comments or denegrde us or whatever, we
can't control that. So number one part of this is
accepting that we can't control other people. And acceptance of
(16:42):
not having control is really difficult, and especially for right
that's a huge part of disordered eating right control and
so and for me, you know, I'm just mentioning that
because I would see a lot of people in recovery
from disordered eating struggle afterwards with this specific topic because
(17:02):
giving up control, and I'm going to be honest, I
struggle with that too. I have weekly therapy and I
talk about that all the time. So in the program
of AA, they talk about keeping your side of the
street clean. And so when it comes to forgiveness with
somebody who's not who's not engaging in that process you,
(17:25):
I would recommend feeling your feelings number one, because we
can't just move past something. We can't just say, oh,
I want to get over this, so let me forgive.
That's false forgiveness and that never ends well. So you
might just need to take your time to be mad,
to be frustrated, to feel grief over the loss of
that relationship as you knew it. Feel that, and then
(17:47):
work on keeping your side of the street clean. Like
you said, you're not doing any I don't want to curse,
you don't want to do any trash talking, right, You're
keeping your side of the street clean. That's kind of
all that you can do. And the rest I would
say to process, you know, in therapy, because you know,
(18:07):
and I'm not assuming you have a therapist, but if
you do, oh, I do Okay, I yes, you know,
they know you a lot better than I. But for me,
that's a process that happens in therapy, coming to terms
with it, grieving the because I think I hear some
feelings there. You know, you're you're not a robot, You're
a human being and you're hurt. So forgiving now it
(18:29):
might need some time and space, some self compassion, some
self care, accepting that you don't have control, and just
keeping your side of the street clean.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Yeah. So on that note, when you choose to forgive somebody,
whether or not it's reciprocal, why do you tell if
it's the type of French of forgiveness that you should
then try to work on growing the relationship, or whether
you should just forgive and move on. So, like Teresa
(18:58):
and I chose to forgive and try to be friends
and it worked, you know, and our husbands are good friends,
which helps. But like we get together, we go to dinner,
we talk on the phone, like it's a nice friendship.
We're not best friends, but we have a nice friendship.
And other people that I've chosen to forgive, my instinct
(19:18):
is like, oh I forgave, now let's be friends. But
I don't always think that's the best idea is And
how do you know is there a way to know
which kind of relationship it should be?
Speaker 2 (19:28):
That is such a great question and a really hard
one because, as I talked about before, there's a difference
between forgiveness and reconciliation and forgiveness and not reconciling. That's
essentially what we're talking about, right, So both are possible,
and it really truly depends on the people involved. I
(19:51):
always believe as a therapist that we have the answers
in our gut. We know what's best for ourselves, and
our gu is never wrong. The question is do we
listen to that? And you know, how do we how
how do we manage our boundaries? And you know me
(20:15):
and you know this whole it's just very complicated. So
I think my answer is, as long as you are
maintaining your dignity, respect, self compassion in your boundaries, you
can try reconciliation and if it doesn't feel right, then
it's not permanent, right you always we have to remember
(20:37):
that there's no decision we make that's permanent. We have
the right as humans to do what's best for us
and our sense of safety. So the long answer is
that it's hard to know, but I would say listen
to your gut. And the second part is outlining if
I'm trying this, how does this feel for me? I'm
(20:58):
a big feel girl, Like I'm a big you know,
if you're doing something, just notice how do you feel
when you're doing it? How does your body feel? Are
you tense? Do you feel nauseous? Like a tend to
those physiological warning signs that are telling you this is
how I'm feeling.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
Why are so many people and we can go right
specifically to this situation not on board with this reconciliation.
Is it because they don't think it's sincere or because
they just don't think that it's possible, Like I know
it's sincere. I don't need to do it for the camera.
(21:45):
I certainly the cameras have stopped rolling for a very
long time now. I don't need to fake anything. I
have a lot of really good friends in my life.
But is that what it is that they don't think
it's sincere or is there more to it? Why are
people so uncomfortable with people making up and moving forward?
Speaker 2 (22:02):
So this is a funny question for me because I'm
a fan of the show, right, and I know you.
I've been on the show before, and so I guess
I want to answer. So my therapist answer is that
I think exactly what you said that people just don't
buy it. But like you said, that's not for people
to buy because the one thing about being on reality
(22:24):
TV is that all the fans can guesstimate what you
all are feeling and experiencing. But only you know, only
you and Teresa know how you feel. So who the
heck is anyone else to tell you that? But so
that's my kind of therapist answer. My answer is a
fan is I think that people who've watched you for
a long time look at you and Teresa, I think
(22:50):
very differently, and so when people for me to see
that reconciliation and forgiveness when things had been so Tomas,
I think it lends itself to how real is this?
But at the same time, hearing what you're saying, which
(23:10):
I would have never gotten the opportunity to do just
as a fan, I feel completely different talking to you,
and I can say that right, I'm seeing you, I'm
hearing you, and that's something that the fans don't really
get to do because we all know reality TV isn't
really real. There's snippets, there's editing, there's this, and there's that.
So being able for you to use your voice and
(23:32):
to say this is real, I'm doing this for me.
You know, you're healing and you're in a place of recovery,
and if I'm being honest, I think that is par
for the course. When you're trying to heal and recover,
you're also trying to get rid of some of those
things in your life that create havoc. So that's kind
(23:54):
of my answer for that, and I just think you can't.
You have to do what's best for Jackie, because at
the end of the day, when you lay your head
on the pillow, it's you right. And I do fight this.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
I feel compelled sometimes to prove to people that it's real,
and I don't want to feel that because that's not
I know inside. That's not my job. And as long
as I'm okay and I feel it, that's what matters.
But you know, part of me still feels like I
don't like people second guessing me. But again that goes
(24:34):
back to the people please a part, and I think
what was difficult for me in all of this was
that for a long time, I just wanted the public
to see me as nice as a mom, as a writer,
as somebody who recovered from an eating disorder. And I
think this season, there's a part of me that I
try to keep hidden, which was this part that seeks revenge,
(24:57):
this part that does get really angry sometimes times and
can be a little shady and sneaky, And that came
out and I was really really embarrassed about it. But
I've had a lot of time to process it, and
I think that it's okay to be a layered person.
It's okay to be a flawed person. And I never
(25:18):
wanted to be seen as flawed, and I am seen
as flawed. So in the same vein as me giving
up that control of what my persona was to the public,
I have to give up that need to make people
believe that it's real. As long as I am okay
with it's and and Thereesa's okay on her end, I
don't need to convince anybody that's right.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
So, since this is a mental health podcast and not
mental health podcast, this podcast is about This is my
own limited series about what's going to lead you to
live your best life in middle age. And it's also
about like the diet industry, the health industry, beauty wellness,
but part of it is mental health. So what, just
(26:02):
really quickly, what does holding on to hatred and anger
due to you physiologically? And what is the benefit of
getting rid of it?
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Okay, I have lots of info on that. So forgiveness
has been shown to elevate mood, enhance optimism, and guard
against anger, stress, anxiety, and depression. Harboring anger and resentment
leads the body to release stress hormones such as cortisol
and adrenaline even when you're thinking of the person, which
that's pretty significant. That's what this research says. Even if
(26:35):
you're bringing up that person who you were talking about before, right,
even when you think is your heart beating a little faster?
You're getting all the Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
I have times when I'm taking a shower and I'm like, God,
I just spent the last ten minutes with the water running,
like having a fake fight in my head.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Well it's crazy. Well it's not crazy, it's just you're human, right,
and we do this because you know what you talked
about before, essentially was impression and management right, we want
people to like us and to you know, all these
other things. So I think your first step in forgiveness
is something we haven't talked about, which is self forgiveness
and self compassion. Because what you're talking about is part
(27:17):
of being human.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Right.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
We all have good and bad parts. We all have
parts to us that are you know, shady and vengeful
and all these things. That's just part of being human.
But what happens is a steady stream of those chemicals
that I just mentioned leads to long term nervous systems smoldering,
(27:39):
which can lead to long term you know, autoimmune issues,
skin issues, ration, you know, unexplained things that you know,
if you go to a doctor as a woman, they'll
tell you that you're crazy, but you're not, because there's
there's a book called The Body Keeps the Score, and
(27:59):
what how weapons is our bodies are in our mental health.
They're not two separate entities, they're one being. So when
we're holding onto anger and resentment, we're legitimately having this
physiological response which then impacts mental health and physical health
and spiritual health. If I'm being honest, you know, it
(28:20):
starts to shift your perspective of being more vengeful versus
being self compassionate. Right, you know firsthand how it can
lead you down a dark path. So I think that
for you, Jackie, and for a lot of folks listening,
self compassion is really important because what you're talking about
there's shame and guilt. Sometimes that's appropriate, right, we need
(28:42):
to sometimes feel shame and guilt for stuff that we've
done wrong. However, what I think you're getting into is
toxic shame and guilt, which is it's not helpful because,
like you said, it becomes you self flagellate. You know,
there's anger, there's frustrating, it's coming from a different spot.
(29:02):
Whereas if you were to be more self compassionate and say, okay, listen,
I messed up. Now what am I going to do
about it? Because what I'm hearing you say is Okay,
I messed up, So what am I going to do
about it? I'm going to do this podcast. I'm going
to admit my wrongdoings. I'm going to accept radical responsibility,
and I'm going to work on compassion and empathy. And
(29:24):
so for me, I'm not joking and this. You know,
people listening to this are probably going to be like, oh, she's,
you know, just trying to make Jackie feel better. But
everything that I have written.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
I feel okay, good exactly not a while. Do accept
this and to live with it and let it oh
right right? Right?
Speaker 2 (29:41):
So? But I mean you really are psychologically speaking, you're
doing the work. You're walking the walk to do that
hard work for you and the betterment of your family
and like you said, for your peace, because with the
health issues that you've had, you got to be really
careful that toxic shame and guilt doesn't bring you back
to a dark place because it's so easy and how
(30:04):
quickly that can happen, right.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Yeah, And I just want more piece in my life.
I don't I don't want to the degree I can
get rid of the toxicity. I want to. Melissa, you
are so brilliant. I wish I had you on speedl
Please tell everybody where they can find you and your podcast.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Thank you. I am you can find me your Bish
therapist podcast. Bish. You can find that podcast anywhere you
listen to pods at new episodes every week. My season
three premiere is actually on Tuesday, so I'm not sure
when this is airing, but I'm going to have a
whole bunch of new more episodes for everybody, and you
(30:45):
can also find me on Instagram at your bish Therapist
and on YouTube same name your bish Therapist.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Fabulous. Thank you so much. This was so great.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
This was great. Thank you for having me, Jackie. I
appreciate it. Thanks Melissa, talk to you soon. Take care, Okay,
boy bye. That was so good.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Because you know, I did have this this comfort inside
that people didn't believe me, that people thought that we
were just doing this for camera, and I didn't. I
knew that that wasn't true. And you know, giving I
think having permission to not worry about that, and having
permission to do what feels good for me without having
to explain it or justify it to other people that
(31:26):
it it just it makes me feel better about everything
as long as I'm okay with it. Listen, you can
only do you can only speak for yourself. You can
only do what makes you feel good. You can control
how other people react to you, and I think letting
go of that control has been really central to my
(31:47):
life for the past few years. You know, eating disorders
are all about control, and I've had to let go
of a lot of control over my body over my
eating habits and over what people think of me, and
all of that's been difficult. But I think having you know,
hearing her perspective and having that permission today was really great.
(32:08):
And also, you know, I know that there are still
people who hate me that I'd like to let go
of the hate for them. And I'm sure that everybody
has somebody like that in their life that they know
doesn't like them, and they they don't want to live
with that kind of hatred in their heart for the
other person, even if that is not going to be
a mutual decision. So knowing also that I have permission
(32:30):
to stop hating somebody else and to forgive somebody else
who is not going to stop hating me or not
going to you know, follow the same path as me,
that also feels good. So I am leaving today feeling
better than when I came into it, and I hope.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Everybody else is too.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
And I will see you for our next episode by now,
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