March 25, 2024 • 52 mins
What are the main issues that tear a marriage apart?
Who cheats more, men or women? The answer may surprise you.
Plus, Jen shares how infidelity changed her marriage.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi guys, Hi everyone. I'm Jen Fessler, I'm Jackie Goldschneider.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
And together we are two Jersey Jays and here we are.
How you doing there, jack I'm good. Everything is good.
It's beautiful out. It is beautiful out.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Finally, finally spring has sprung and everything's good. No complaints.
Kids are healthy. Aiden's walking again. You know, he broke
his knee. He's on the night we were at Madonna horrible.
He is almost fully back and we're just getting ready.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
We're going to Europe.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Nice, very nice, very excited and just happy to be
here recording another pod with my best Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
So we Jackie and I. When we were going over
what to talk about for this episode. This past week,
we had the pleasure of going to a live podcast. Uh.
TJ Holmes and Amy Roeboch did their first live podcast
after I don't know what to call it, a scandal
(01:03):
types well, it was really a scandalal type situation, but
it was if you guys don't know, it was very scandalous,
and so if you don't know, Amy and TJ were
hosts on Good Morning America for hours, yes not just
the third hour. Amy hosted throughout and TJ was also
like the sports oh okay, right, reporter throughout and he
did a lot of like filling in, so so I mean,
(01:25):
like you know, I would think like one of the
most coveted broadcasting positions that one could have, right, They
are big deals, and they had an affair, although they yeah,
they get very upset with that. They call it a relationship,
not just that, but they there were reasons they didn't
call it an affair. TJ was already I guess, had
(01:46):
already been separated from his life.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
I mean, they said that they were not in good relationships.
They were in relationships that were crumbling at the time
that they started their relationship.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
So they didn't really talk about their previous marriages, but
they talked a lot about shame. They talked a lot
about scandal, about getting fired. I mean, the news, the
paparazzi reported on it, and like days later they were
both fired from these really really high profile jobs and
(02:17):
what it was like and you know, sort of trying
to figure out they didn't even want to leave the house,
but where to go from there. So they were really
really honest and I love them both. And it's funny
because we posted about this and I got some comments
and some DM saying you had a great night with
(02:38):
Amy and tj oh you enjoy spending time with cheaters,
or because I think I said something to the effect of, like,
you know, I admire them, and so I got some
blowback for that, which kind of pisses me off in
the sense that you know, all of these high standards
that everybody is so perfect, everybody more perfect, right, And listen,
(03:03):
I'm not saying that they didn't make mistakes, and they
actually talked about that. Their worst mistake was probably keeping
it a secret for so long that they should have
taken control of the narrative. But anyway, listen, you're also
talking about a situation that I've you know, participated in
terms of infidelity, and my husband and I have both
(03:23):
experienced it, and shit happens and nobody gets away without either,
you know, being the culprit. I'm not saying just a cheating,
just there was so much judgment around what I had posted.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Yeah, so the thing that got me and I love
the podcast and I love listening to them, and I
find them both to be warm and adorable and very
in love with each other. But what I wish that
they touched on just for a second, was what happened?
Speaker 2 (03:55):
What was happening in their relationships at the time, right, you.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Know, because then you're left to one or what I
found myself wondering And I'm not second guessing them. I
don't know them, you know, but like, was the other
person blindsided?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Did they know how unhappy? Well you in TJ's I know,
in Tech's case, he had already moved out. I know.
You know, Amy talked about a photo that she had
taken in Greece and that it was just felt like
such a lie. We don't know. And again they probably
were being respectful of their you know, ex or soon
to be ex spouses. It was a podcast, It wasn't
(04:29):
a discussion with, you know, a therapist.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
But what I was left with was wondering, like, well,
what happened what happens in your old marriage?
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Like to get to that point, to get to that.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Point where you I remember one thing they said was
and because they had been friends for quite a while,
and then they said that like one day, like a
look just turns into a gaze, and like what happens
to get you to that point where the friend with
a friendship crosses over?
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Right, you know, and then the affair starts and what
happens in the marriage that you're even open to it,
which is what.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Is happening at home that you're open to it. So
today we want to talk to an expert. Yees, we'll
tell you.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Who she is about what goes on.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
In a marriage that can get you to that breaking
point and what can you do about it so that
you don't get there.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Not just not just in terms of like having an affair,
but you know, the disintegration of marriage and how to
get back from a place you know that's that's really
bad and maybe you know, get your marriage back on
track or not, when do you call it quits? So
(05:45):
you guys, today we have a very very special guest.
It's someone that I know pretty well. I've known this
person for years. She is a therapist. She has been
in the business for what thirty years. She was the
(06:06):
executive director of rehabilitation centers in Florida. She worked a lot,
has worked a lot with addiction. She is currently running
a practice here in Northern Jersey and she is beyond
booked and there's a lot of focus for her right
now on marriage counseling. I know all of this about
(06:27):
her because I've known her for fifty four years, since
she is my sister. Hi Robbie, Hi Ram introducing Robin Gutterman.
You guys, we're so excited to have you.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Here because I know that you know all about this
topic that we are going to discuss what causes the
end of a marriage, because you tell her.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Well, you know we have been We've discussed before you
hopped on, Robin that Jackie and I recently attended a
live podcast with TJ Holmes and Amy Robock. I don't
know if you know them. I think we've discussed it,
but anyway, so the two of them, they had an affair.
They were fired from Good Morning America like two days
after the word was out. It was a huge scandal,
(07:13):
and they recently, for the first time sort of shared
the story. What they really didn't do is talk too
much about their previous marriages. They didn't talk at all. Yeah, yeah,
they really were more focused on the shame that came
from the scandal, about how the affairs started, how they
became best friends. They both know TJ struggled with a
lot of depression in terms of the job he was doing.
(07:35):
So Jackie and I have just you know, been talking
a lot about them, and you know, a lot of
our listeners, I am pretty sure, struggle with these issues.
And even if it's not marriage, it could be long
term relationships. I know that. You actually just attended a
conference in Orlando, right, I.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
Did a Marriage and Family Center conference from a really
brilliant guy who is one of the top like gurus
of marriage, of marriage and family counseling.
Speaker 4 (08:05):
So I mean, you.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Take you take it people like Amy and TJ who
seem very together, they have their shit together, their beautiful, loving,
warm and you wonder what could have gone so wrong
in their previous relationships.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
That yeah, right, yeah, well, I mean they the affair
the way they've represented it, and again they didn't really
talk too much about previous marriages, but it was sort
of more about the way that they fell in love.
So we're but for our purposes, you know, I would
love to talk about what is happening in the marriage
and how does a marriage disintegrate, And I'm sure there's
(08:44):
all different ways, but to the point where an affair happens,
a divorce happens, how do you robin get people back
on track? Can you always get people back on track.
So one of the biggest issues. Yeah, let's start at
the start. What's the what's the number one thing that
tears people apart?
Speaker 3 (09:00):
Communication, I would say, or an inability to manage conflict at.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
House of what I say, is that something because we're
you know, as you know rob our podcast, we're focused
on women of a certain age, not necessarily newlyweds. But still,
I don't know, maybe these problems run, you know, in
terms of they run with newlyweds and then people have
been married for years and years. But right, tell us, like,
what is I guess communication is sort of the most
(09:31):
common issue. Does that happen at the beginning of a marriage?
Does the marriage disintegrate our kids the reason? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Does that mean you just don't talk or you don't
know how to resolve your issues?
Speaker 3 (09:41):
I mean yeah, I think there are a lot of
things that end up being the struggle for people in marriage.
One of them, I mean, things do change after you
have children, for sure, that becomes a big piece. Finances
intimacy or lack of intimacy emotionallyhysically, sexually over time, especially
(10:03):
in older women, I think that starts to decrease over
time from what I'm seeing a lot of But you know,
the things that people really focus on are the things
that keep.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
The marriage together.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
And there are three things, right, So it starts with
friendship being allies and partners in a relationship, putting each
other first, making each other a priority above anyone and
everything else is even the kids, even the kids, without
a doubt, the marriage comes before the children.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Robbie, what does that look like on like in a
practical can you give us like an example of that,
like a practical example when for people that are dealing
with the juggling the kids and the marriage.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Yeah, I think it's you know, on a daily basis,
we talk about you're either turning towards or turning away
from your partner.
Speaker 4 (10:49):
And everything that you do on a daily basis.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
So for example, you're sitting at the table, right and
you're with your partner and one if you picks up
the phone and is reading your text messages, that would
be considered a turnway. Right, you're having a conversation, you're
not giving eye contact, that would be a turnarway. One
text the other throughout the day, the other one doesn't answer,
that would be considered a turn away. There's many things
(11:13):
that we do on a daily basis that we're either
nurturing our relationship or we're doing things that set it up.
Little things all the time, all throughout the day that's
set it up for resentment over time, and it's things
that we don't think about and we don't catch. But
if the marriage isn't where it needs to be and
it's not the priority, then everything that comes underneath that
(11:34):
umbrella becomes an issue.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
But don't you have to prioritize your kids. They're needy,
they need you.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
It's not that your children aren't a priority. Of course,
your children are priority, but they're not the biggest priority.
I like to say, shit runs downhill. So if the
marriage relationship is strong, there's friendship, there's support, there's affection,
there's love, there's togetherness, there's unity and parenting all of
those things or what you're role modeling for your children. Right,
(12:03):
So if that's what we're focusing on a lot a
lot of the time, is making sure that relationship is
the most healthy, then what your kids begin to see
is what does it look like, right? What does it
look like when we have a fight as partners, Well,
it looks like we scream maybe, and we resolve it
and our kids get to see how we deal with life,
(12:24):
even though it's not perfect, how we deal with it together.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Right, So you're not saying like, if your kids have
something they need to be at, like you choose a
date night instead.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
That's not what you're saying.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
Okay, No, absolutely not. I'm just saying that the way
that you connect in your relationship needs to be the
priority over anything and everything else in your life.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
I love otherwise other therewise there's holes over time.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Yeah, you said there were three things, and the first
thing is friendship, which I love, which only in the
sense that you know this is old news ready, but
Jeff and I have had after twenty five years in April,
we've certainly had our ups and our downs and separated
for a year and a half, and there were infidelities,
and there have been lots there's lots of stuff, right
(13:09):
that's packed into that twenty five years. The thing that
I can say now is that and that I cherish
the most is the friendship is the and I think
you said like that feeling of I don't know how
you said it, but but we're such a team. All
the other stuff and I don't know what comes after
the friendship, but to me, that's for me, that's the
most important part of my relationship. That's the part that
(13:32):
I really treasure the most.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
Yeah, it's being allies, being partners, making sure the other
person knows on a daily basis that they're meaningful, that
they're important, that they're a priority, right in the little ways,
not in grand gestures, just in the little things that
we do that let the other person know that we're
leaning towards them, you know, throughout the day.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
What was the next thing?
Speaker 3 (13:55):
So the next thing is managing conflict hence communication, learning
how to fight fairly.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Right.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
I think we don't know how to listen to each other.
I think we hear each other, but we don't know
how to actively listen. And that's a skill, right, learning
how to talk to someone so they can hear you.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Okay, But when you get in a fight and it's
heated a lot of Evan and I get along great,
but there are times when we just have to walk
away from each other.
Speaker 4 (14:22):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
So what do you do in those kinds of circumstances?
Speaker 3 (14:26):
I mean, I think it's it's learning how to do
things that are going to promote healthy you know, healthy
fighting and healthy communication. So the way that you talk
to somebody you never you know, the way the.
Speaker 4 (14:40):
Choice of words that you use are a big thing.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
We don't think that they are, but all day, every day,
the choices that we use make people defensive.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Give us an example.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Yeah, so if you want to say something along the
lines of why didn't you take out the garbage? You
never take it out. I always have to do it,
and you're sitting in my office, I would say to you, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:03):
No, that's not a good way to start, right.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
Using a sentence that starts with you is going to
be me talking about somebody else's behavior and a negative capacity.
Speaker 4 (15:13):
You is the worst word on the planet to ever use.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
Instead, I'm going to say, you know, it's upsetting for
me when I feel like, you know, we both walk
by the garbage and it seems like I'm the only
one that's taking it out, and when that happens, I
feel frustrated, right as opposed to why don't you ever
do it? You never take it out? It's so annoying. Yeah,
very different way of dealing. So it's the way that
you're speaking, right that helps a conversation and it's also,
(15:41):
as you said, Jackie, taking those moments where one person
becomes flooded emotionally in a fight, which means emotionally and
physically at their fill. Right, So if the other person
says one more thing to me, I'm going to cut
runneth over, I'm going to lose my mind. Right, I'm
gonna scream, I'm gonna walk away, I'm going to do
whatever they're is. So it's important when one person is
(16:02):
flooded emotionally to be able to say, hey, I'm at
my fill. How about we take a twenty minute break
and go in the other room and calm down, and
I say, read a magazine because that's the best way
to get your body chemistry back down to normals. To
read some piece of crap that means.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Nothing online or does it have to be like us Weekly?
Did it be anything?
Speaker 3 (16:25):
It can be anything, but it can't be from a phone.
It needs to be something that you can pick up.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Interesting.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
Yeah, And it's the number one intervention for emotionally de escalating.
Speaker 4 (16:36):
You.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Wow, so interesting. I got to buy in the other room. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
You go in the other room for twenty minutes and
then you come back together and you try to start
again with an ice statement instead of a youth statement,
which will immediately begin to change just how the tone
is of the conversation.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Yeah, it does. What is the third thing? So we've
got friendship and communications.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
Conflict, managing conflict.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
Yeah, and the most important one to me after friendship, well,
all of them are important is shared meaning?
Speaker 2 (17:09):
What is that?
Speaker 3 (17:09):
So as a couple, it's how do you dump yourself
into somebody else's subjective reality. So the things that are
important to them, their hopes, their dreams, their wishes, they're
the things that make them.
Speaker 4 (17:25):
Who they are.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
How do you put yourself in that so you can
create shared meaning together. An example would be one of
my clients was talking about how she wanted to climb
on Mount Everest and the husband and was scared of heights.
So she's like, well, I've been wanting to do this
my bucket list, it's my dream. So he's petrified, but
(17:50):
he made a decision to go with her to do
this as scared as he was, and he did the
best he could and then stopped.
Speaker 4 (17:56):
They went with a guide.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
And she climbed up higher, so they oienced it something
that was her dream together and created shared meaning.
Speaker 4 (18:05):
And I think.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
That's the biggest The things that you do on a
daily basis, the rituals, right, even little things like my
husband brings me coffee Jeff for you too every morning.
What are the things that the two of you can
jump into in each other subjective reality meaning the dreams,
the hope, the wishes, the things that are important and
(18:26):
become part of it.
Speaker 4 (18:28):
So funny the growth and sake of the relationship.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
I don't ever ask Jeff what are your Well, that's
not true. I probably do, and he doesn't answer because
he's like, I'm working, but when whenever, But he's like, like,
what do you want? Like moving forward? Like what are
your We want to do different things when we travel,
so I personally know and so does See. We push because,
for instance, Jeff could spend all day long. We're about
to go to Vietnam. He's going to want to tour
(18:52):
every historical site, and I more want to see the
people in the I mean he wants to We want
to do both, but like I will, I will push myself.
I don't always, you know, want to see want to
go to every museum or want to go to every
monument and that's important him. Sometimes don't. I probably don't
push hard enough. But I feel like that's what you're saying,
(19:13):
like to actually, you know, and I and I'm trying
to think of like do you have anything real life?
Speaker 1 (19:18):
Well, I just wanted to ask so, But it's not
always an instance like it would be okay if that
husband said, you know, I'm really scared, I don't want
to do this.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
I'm like, I hope that you have fun on your own,
Like is that okay?
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Because there's oftentimes where things that I want to do
that Evan is just so uninterested in, and I say,
it's okay, I'll go do it, I'll grab a girlfriend,
I'll do it, and like we'll do something else together.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Is that okay to still?
Speaker 4 (19:45):
I mean, I think I think that it's okay.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
I think that you know, we have to compromise and
pick and shoes. We can't always just do the things
that we want to do. Sometimes we have to jump
into somebody else's love or interest because we love them
and more not about it being about them, but us
trying to understand who they are right as humans, Like
what is it about this that's so exciting for you?
(20:09):
It's like Jennifer learning football right her husband loves football.
Finally making a decision to say, all right, I've been
sitting on the couch with be bored on my phone
for the last twenty years, Right, what can I do?
What can I do different? Well, huh, maybe someone can
teach me about football. I might not like it as
much as Jeff Bessler, but now I actually might be
(20:29):
able to say, you know what a down is, you know,
and I might be able to have a conversation about
a certain correct, there are things things like that, right,
So not even all the way sharing what we can
share to become part of the other person's dream and
subjective reality, the things that are important as part of
(20:51):
their truth.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
So people, you know, a couple walks through the door
and launching it to this at the point that they're
at may not help. Like they're in the midst of
you know, one of them has had an affair, they've
been discovered, there's no intimacy left. How do you guide
people that have grown so far apart? Yeah, like don't you? Oh?
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Like so one part of me is like, of course
you try to save any way that you can.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
But the other part is like you live once life
is sure.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
You owe it to yourself to be with a partner
who really makes you happy.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Where's the line?
Speaker 4 (21:32):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
So I think that when people come in, there's two
things that I try to really teach them. One is,
are you here unconditionally meaning we got married for better
or for worse, come what may, and no mat matter
what happens, that's.
Speaker 4 (21:50):
Our goal to figure it out.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
Or I married you and it's conditional, meaning that if
I'd a part in my life where I'm different, I've
grown out of it, I'm unsure.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
Then I need to figure out, you know, kind of
where I am.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
So if two people come in and they're both unconditional, great,
they're both conditional I can still work with because it
means there's hope there. If one's unconditional and one's conditional,
I tell them they need to go home and have
a conversation.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
So like, what do you mean? So like if they
both come in and one says, no, matter what you do, asshole,
I'm sticking by you. I want to stay married to you,
and I want this, you know, until the end of time,
and the other says, well, I don't really feel it,
and if things don't change, I'm out. That's when you
know it's over. Is that what you're saying that?
Speaker 3 (22:35):
And then the other thing is if I say to
one one of the clients, tell me something good about
your significant other, tell me something good. If you can't
tell me anything good about your significant other, then you
need to go home and have a conversation, because that
means we're at the time where there's just contempt. And
if we're at a place of contempt, then we really
(22:57):
need to reevaluate.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
And you can't help at that point.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
If someone says to me that if they can't find
something good about their partner, then I'm not one of
those people that's going to try to create something where
there's nothing left.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
Okay, so other therapist, cool.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Here's a question. If you have all of those things,
you have what seems to you to be a great marriage,
the friendship, the intimacy, all of it communication, Is it
possible that one person just falls for someone else? Can
that still happen even with everything?
Speaker 4 (23:35):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (23:35):
I think, Look, it depends on how much we're nurturing
the relationship.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Right.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
We can have a good relationship just day in day
out and we're just not fighting, and we would just
have you know we have a good marriage. There's another part,
are we nurturing it or are we not and nurturing
it is more about the things that I'm talking about
with the shared meaning. People do end up having affairs
for many different reasons, which also makes a couples count
(24:00):
think very difficult. Right, So there's two things that make
it difficult, and an abusive relationship and an affair.
Speaker 4 (24:06):
Those are the two things that are very very difficult
to do with well.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
In abusive relationship, I would never advocate anybody going back
to but an affair, and I think Jen and I
sit very differently on this because I have no experience
with it.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
But can you ever.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Fully get the trust back? Like do you fully fully
trust your partner?
Speaker 2 (24:23):
Listen, I don't know. I can't answer that in a
global sense. Do I trust Jeffessler one hundred percent? Yes,
I do? And more than that, Like it's so I
don't even think about it. It's just the last thing
on my mind, you know, I don't. It's not like
I'm maybe back in the day it happened. The infidelities
(24:45):
both of ours have been so long ago, and I
guess for years afterwards, I was, you know, suspicious looking
at the phone or questioning, and I just know I
don't ever even think about it.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
I don't, but I think what Jackie said, I think
there are people that can't let it go for sure.
So you know, in counseling, I'll take a look at
I'll have an individual session. If there was an affair
and the person who had the affair, I'm going to
ask them straight out if you need to tell the
truth right there cannot be any more secrets end of it.
So if you're not willing to tell the truth to
(25:21):
the partner, I mean to your partner, to me and
to the partner, but I meet it individually, so this person,
you know, the partner will know where I stand on this,
that the truth has to happen and the secrets have
to be finished, and that the things that are discussed
in terms of an affair are discussed. Everything that that
(25:43):
the person who was this was done to, Everything is
asked except the specifics of what happened in the bedroom.
We all know what happens in the bedroom, right, We
don't need to have a conversation in therapy about what
happens in the bedroom. We know out side of that
that person engaged in this behavior and the person who
(26:05):
has been devastated deserves The answer is without secrets.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
So is it a different counseling session if there was
an emotional attachment versus just more about the sex.
Speaker 3 (26:18):
No, I think it's the same thing in terms of
what in terms of being the truth?
Speaker 4 (26:23):
Right, what's the truth?
Speaker 3 (26:24):
We're not going to have secrets in our marriage and
it's going to continue to come up over time, right
until there is trust that's built back, and trust is
built back by acting remorsefully and understanding what the other
person needs. And remorse is an action. It's not something
we say, it's something we do and how we behave.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Am I an enigma? Rob? Do you think, like how
many of the people that you counsel that where there's infidelity,
how many of them do make the marriage last and
you know, fix it?
Speaker 3 (26:53):
I mean I don't really have you know, a percentage.
It's really about what's reported and who continue used to
come back.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
You're not because Jennifer Aiden's marriage is fine? No, I
don't mean. The only one I'm just saying is it rare?
Is it really rare to be able to come back
from infidelity? I mean, I can say, like, I have
a lot a lot of friends who are divorced and
who have you know been either you know, the cheaer
or the one that was cheated on, and so it's
(27:23):
I don't see that much although maybe nobody, not a
lot of people tell me, but there's not often that
bounce back of Okay, we survived it, we're back together at.
Speaker 4 (27:31):
Least, you know what I actually do.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
I think people that are committed because of the reasons
that I said before, all the other things Jackie you
brought up, I think that if people are committed, I
think there is and invested in doing the work outside
of therapy as well, because that's where most of the
work happens. Right you're with a therapist for an hour,
and you're both committed to coming and doing what's suggested.
Speaker 4 (27:54):
I do think I have.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
I can think of, just off the top of my head,
five or six couples that had eat their emotional affairs
Jackie asked, or affairs, and they're together, two of whom
have had children since they started coming to me.
Speaker 4 (28:08):
So I do.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
I think it's really more about how invested are we
and how are we working on the things in the
marriage that help us to get to that place of
earning back the trust right and in the relationship over time,
and it's.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Got to be I don't know if this is this
is the truth or just the way. I don't really know,
but it feels to me like if we hadn't been
through that and it was a long time ago, I
don't know that we would be where we are today.
I would not recommend I'm not advocating for infidelity, really
I'm not, but I just think to myself, I still
(28:46):
have this like there's this pervasive feeling that I'm lucky,
you know, not just because I got we got back together.
There are a lot of reasons why I feel blessed
and that I have so much gratitude, But I feel
like we don't take each other for granted like we
did at the beginning of our marriage. It's not, you know,
(29:08):
it's it's not a given.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Yep, that's not Can I ask you a question just
some other things that in doing our research, we saw
that it said finances, we're the biggest cause of stress
in a relationship.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
So but what can you do about that?
Speaker 1 (29:25):
I mean, and do you advise women to have their
own money and their own bank accounts.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
I really think it just it depends on the dynamic
of the relationship. What I've actually found is most people
that are married first marriage, they have joint.
Speaker 4 (29:39):
Accounts, interestingly enough, and then.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
Most people that are on their second, third, eighteenth marriage,
they usually have their own right. So now they've figured
out for household expenses they usually have shared and for
everything else they keep separate. And that's what I've seen
the majority. I'm not sure why, Jackie. I don't know
if it's just the first time around, maybe it's just
do I think.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
It's because they maybe want to protect if they have kids,
they want to protect the kids right.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
Right, if they have divorce, if they get divorced second
time around, whatever, they have separate accounts.
Speaker 4 (30:11):
Whatever it might be. But I don't think there's anything
wrong with it. I think everything is worthy of a discussion.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Okay, a discussion.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Yeah, what about relatives? Like extended families cause a lot
of problems. What do you do about that? Because you
can't just cut off your family, Like, what do you
do about like mother in laws. I have a wonderful
mother in law, but what do you do with a
mother in law that like just won't stop interfering or
in laws in generating.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
I think it's important to first talk it out together.
What are the things that are important, you know, husband
and wife in terms of are boundaries and interference right,
what is the most upsetting? Are we listening to each
other about the things that we really need and the
things that upset us or get disrupted by family? And
(30:55):
a lot of the time it's an inability based on
a history to set boundaries right with our parents, whether
it's due to guilt, whether it's because they've been there
for us our whole lives, whether it's because there's a
dynamic that's happened since childhood that prevents them from setting
up boundaries. So I think again, it's always going to
be about a conversation. It's always going to be about
(31:16):
how do we compromise on the things that are important
to each of us when it comes to family members,
So how do we stick up a boundary. Maybe it's
a family that walks in without knocking, right, they just
come over, Then there needs to be a conversation. If
that's very disruptive to me and not to my husband,
then I need to have a conversation. And the hope
would be that depending on the dynamic, that one of
(31:39):
us would have a conversation and start with validating and
supporting the family. We love you so much, you know,
we love having you come to our house, the kids.
It makes the kids so happy, It makes us so happy.
But sometimes it's hard for us when there's just a
drop in because we have a lot of things going
on and as much you know, we love, love, love
having here. But we would so appreciate if you were,
(32:02):
you know, to get a phone call before you come,
just so we can make sure we're dressed and the
kids are you know, we're ready or whatever it might be.
Speaker 4 (32:10):
It just it makes it easier for us.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
So again, talking for you, Jackie, about what you need
instead of what the extended family or the you know,
the family members are doing to you anything, y Right,
it's what do we need to make.
Speaker 4 (32:26):
Us feel okay?
Speaker 3 (32:27):
And how can we validate and support the people that
we love while trying to put up the boundary that says, hey,
it's important to me that we get knocks on the
door before people come over because it just kind of
freaks me out.
Speaker 4 (32:39):
So we'd really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Right, So instead of attacking the other person, or what
other people are doing.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
You make it more about your needs. I love that. Yeah,
also Rob women around our age, Jackie, not you yet,
but Robin, you and me? So the empty nest thing, right, So,
I'm sure a lot of couples that you work with,
probably the kids leave and what's left now? Right when
when they've devoted so much time and effort to the kids,
(33:08):
And is it do you find a lot of that
couple struggling to reconnect after the kids are gone?
Speaker 4 (33:16):
You know?
Speaker 3 (33:17):
I think it really depends on the dynamic throughout in
the relationship.
Speaker 4 (33:22):
You know, I don't.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
I do see it, but I don't know it's interesting enough.
I don't know if I see it as much as
I thought I would see it. I think there's a
rekindling a lot of the time, or maybe that's the
time where couples do come in and want to work
on their relationship because they feel like they they put
it on the back burner.
Speaker 4 (33:43):
Yeah, I hear that, right, that they put their.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
Relationship on the back burner as secondary to the children.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
Right.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
And that's where I try to change the dynamic. Like
I said at the beginning, Oh no, no, no, no, no,
you need to be as much of a priority as
as your children. Otherwise you do end up with that. Now,
where are we after the kids are gone?
Speaker 2 (34:10):
So this is just a little funny anecdote. But years
and years ago, Rachel, my daughter was I don't know
how she was. She's a little girl, not little little,
but little whatever. Maybe she was twelve, I don't know.
But she said to me, who do you love the
most in the world? And maybe she was younger, I
(34:31):
can't whatever. I don't remember anything anymore, but but I
remember she said it to me. And I was very
conscious when I said to her, I want because I
thought I want her to feel safe, right, And I
said I love Daddy the most, which is a big Obviously,
I think I made a big mistake. But I did it.
I did it very I did. I made it. I
(34:53):
made it very like purposely because I thought for I
don't know why I would think that that that would
just make her feel like mommy and Daddy. You know,
I don't know what secure right. Anyway, she had a fit.
She bitched, such a fit, the screaming exact Zack, do
you do that? Oh my god, you see Rachel doing that?
(35:13):
You know what, Mab We just said, she said he
loves daddy bust. It was insane, and then I'm like
trying to backtrack. I'm like, no, I just said that.
I don't really mean it, Rach. I love you guys
the most.
Speaker 4 (35:25):
There's some good role modeling, Jenny, right, yes.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Exactly, but like you know that sort of like prioritizing
the kids, I would think should see you prioritize you
know your partner absolutely to be more than even not
more than that.
Speaker 4 (35:40):
What do you want them to learn? What do you
want them to learn? I want them to learn love.
You want them to learn partnership. You want them to
learn friendship, you want them to learn togetheredness. Everything that
I started with this at the beginning is what you're
role modeling on a daily basis.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
And we did not always do a great job of that.
But you know, well, now they're out of the house,
we're doing a really good job of it.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Well my kids are, and they don't love when we
go out, and I like to go out fairly often,
and I think it's a good thing, yeah, for them
to watch us, because I don't want them to grow
up and think that you have to devote your entire
life to just staying home with your kids. I mean,
of course you have to prioritize your children, but I
don't want them to just sit.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
Home, yeah with their kids. Yeah, No, I mean I
think of.
Speaker 4 (36:21):
I was just going to say.
Speaker 3 (36:21):
The other thing is I hear literally daily, I hear
when there's our problems in the marriage and people are
at the verge of divorcing or feeling that they want
to do something different.
Speaker 4 (36:32):
To staying in the marriage for the children. I hear
every day all day.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
And when do you think if.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
They're older, when the kids are older, right when they
go to college, then we'll reevaluate. But right now, we
don't want to do that to the kids. We don't
want to separate from the kids.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
What do you think of that?
Speaker 3 (36:51):
I mean, I always tell people that you can't be
in a marriage for your children. You're wasting a lot
of years. You got to look at your own happiness
and you stay in a marriage for the things that
you get from it. You don't stay in a marriage
for the things that you're fearful of losing.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Wow, I love that. I mean, I I just picturing
scenarios where it is, you know, unhealthy for the kids
to separate. I would think that is you have to
prioritize that at some level, like even if you can coexist,
then isn't that better for the kids then you know,
(37:31):
a separated household.
Speaker 4 (37:33):
But I don't. I mean, again, I don't agree. Where's
the role modeling? Then? What role modeling are you teaching
your children at that point?
Speaker 1 (37:40):
I mean a lot of friends in unhappy marriages that
just stay because the whole idea of being single again
and living alone and honestly not seeing your kids all
the time is completely overwhelming, and staying together in an
unhappy relationship is just so much easier.
Speaker 4 (37:58):
People.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
I've heard quite often people say all men cheap. I
happen to not think that's true, but realistically.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
Not everyone gets caught. How many relationships do you think
that there is adultery?
Speaker 3 (38:12):
I mean, you know, I think that there is a
big percentage. I wish I had my my notes on
me because I get asked this question all the time,
and a fifty four I can't ever remember anything. So
I mean, I definitely think there's a percentage that's you know,
maybe twenty percent, but I think I don't think it's half.
I think there are many men in this world that
(38:34):
are committed and loving and kind and respectful and want
the same thing as you know. But I also don't
think it's the end all be all either, Right, So
it happens, and if it happens, what are we going
to do. We're going to go and we're going to
make our relationship hopefully, we're going to nurture it, do
the things I'm talking about, and we're going to move
(38:55):
forward healthier, right, and happier, and we won't be the
old US, but we'll.
Speaker 4 (38:59):
Be a new, anew US.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
That's that's you know, well and improved, and that's what
we're looking for. So I don't know, I don't agree
with that all men cheat, absolutely not meither thine.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
More men cheat than women. No, really really interesting, maybe
not misdaining. Maybe back in the day it was different.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
But I can tell you if I think of my
caseload right now, it's probably fifty to fifty.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Wowly sally, Yeah, interesting.
Speaker 4 (39:27):
And that's my caseload.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
I don't know what it is, you know, with other people,
but with what I what I see, I would say
it's pretty equal. Okay, maybe maybe a slight tilt to
the men, but not really that much, not that significantly.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
I have we have like we could go on and on,
like I have questions that are like not even we
haven't even touched upon, like women that I know that
would never like Jeff walks into this house and I
am Jackie. I think you're different. Like you've said to
me that like he walks in, I don't think there's
a day that he walks in that I'm not in sweat,
that's my hair in a frizzy ponytail, no makeup, like
(40:05):
in usually in bed with food on the crumbs on
the And you said you don't. I remember you said
this man don't matter when that you do always like
to look put together with them.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
Yeah, I like to look put I mean not obviously,
not when I'm going to bed, but yeah I'm not.
I've just never been the type that walks around with
like a scraggly pony in sweats.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
But that doesn't have to do with Evan, or doesn't.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
I mean, I also want to look attractive for him.
I don't know, I like looking good for him, and
he usually doesn't like bum around looking gross either.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Well do you think that matters, Rob?
Speaker 3 (40:38):
I think it's it's it's yes, I mean I think
that it's if we're looking sexually and we're looking.
Speaker 4 (40:44):
Physically, we need to get into sex.
Speaker 3 (40:47):
No, we did, and we missed the intimacy piece with
women that are you know our age.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Yeah, listen, I have a healthy sex life, but like
for a lot of women, they are between the child
responsibilities and work and every else in life.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
Like it's just not doesn't happen. Well, Jack, we had
a podcast about sex and we talked about the fact
that there are you know, women not just on reality TV,
but in general that's claimed they have sex, you know,
not only multiple times a week, multiple times a night,
and there's you know this a lot of sex talk.
And it certainly at my age, Jack, maybe not as
much as yours, but it is not a priority. Only
(41:23):
after twenty years of marriages, there's just not a priority
like it used to be. But you know, as you
get to be our age, I know that for men
at least, this is what I know. For my friends,
this is not I'm not saying I know this for
a fact, but they want Most of my friends, the
husbands or the partners want sex a lot more than
the women do. And how to kind of reconcile that, right,
(41:46):
And how much does that affect a marriage if there's
you know, as women get older physically you become it
becomes less enjoyable, like period, right, unless you use hormones
and all of that. But the cravings I think for women,
the women that I know, definitely go down, right, And
how to navigate that in a marriage or in a
(42:07):
partnership too, I.
Speaker 4 (42:09):
Mean, I think it definitely women.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
Menopause definitely changes things a lot, but so does children, right, So,
and so I think Jackie, you had asked this, I
think ahead of time or someone asked me this about
you know, scheduling sex, right, So sometimes it's not as
much about how often.
Speaker 4 (42:30):
It's about making sure that it.
Speaker 3 (42:32):
Is a priority and fitting in as a balance with
the other things that are important in our lives. And
at different ages, there's different things that are priorities, right,
So I think it just depends. But scheduling sex, to me,
when you have crazy life and you have children, and
you have activities and jobs and all those things, I
don't care if you put it on the calendar. I
(42:52):
think it's a healthy thing to do.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Good because we quite often have to schedule sex, and
I would absolutely. I've always wondered if that just just
joys the intimacy that that part of it, Like we're
like Thursday, nine thirty, can you we call it a
conference call so that my kids, I hope my kids
listen to.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
This, so that they don't, you know, die of embarrassment.
But we do know.
Speaker 4 (43:14):
I think, yes, I think it's I think.
Speaker 2 (43:17):
And what do you do in the marriages where where
the one of the partners wants it and so much
more than the other. What, Just like.
Speaker 3 (43:28):
Everything else, I guess it's it's about we have to
make sure that we're nurturing the other parts that create intimacy,
the emotional, the physical, the affection, the conversation, the things
that may be additionally fuel us in terms of how
we feel, and with sex as well, and partners aren't
(43:48):
going to be on the same page. So, like everything else,
success in marriage is based on compromise, and it's based
on an ability to vent our needs and our wants.
That's the other main thing that keeps a marriage together
is ability to vent and making sure that again we're
putting ourselves in each other's subjective reality, right, shared meaning,
(44:09):
and if something's more important to one person than the other.
Then we need to find a compromise. So it's not
all the time, it's a compromise.
Speaker 2 (44:15):
So is that saying because I would I hear like
women in the back of my head saying you should
never have sex if you don't feel like it, Like,
I'm sure that a lot of that's probably a pretty
I don't know. I don't want to get myself in
trouble here, but a little bit of a fit, right right? Yeah?
And is it healthy to have sex because your partner
(44:40):
really wants it and you want to make them happy physically,
even if you're not in the mood.
Speaker 4 (44:49):
Yeah, I do think it's okay.
Speaker 3 (44:51):
So I might get about a backlash on this too,
based on the world we live in today. But if
I'm going from the perspective of shared meaning, and I'm
going from a place of real love and a desire
for connection, and I'm not saying all the time, but yes,
if there is this a night and I'm absolutely exhausted
or I had a terrible day and I'm in a
(45:11):
terrible mood, am I then gonna force myself to do something?
Probably not. But if it's just it's one of those
nights and I just, you know, rather go to bed
and my husband is into it. There's other things we
can do to be intimate, right, we don't have to
have sex. There are other things we can do physically
and sexually without having intercourse.
Speaker 4 (45:31):
Other things that we can do.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
Yeah, that's a whole lot of conversation with you, sister.
I love this.
Speaker 1 (45:43):
I thought it was so good too. It makes me
feel very fortunate. But I do recognize things that you know,
Evan wants that I tell him to go do on
his own, that I could probably give more of myself too.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
But also, like I don't like we have when we
there are things like the football thing, Rob, that my
husband is obsessed with football. Like I was never going
to become a football wife. I wasn't gonna sit down,
you know and watch football games on Sundays, but Robin
mentioned that. Yes, Like more recently, I had a friend
(46:18):
kind of explained to me. I was like, it just
became a little more enjoyable that I could share that
with him. But he also was never like he never
gave me shit about it. Like Jeff. In his family,
there have been Giant season Giants season tickets for since
Jeff was a little boy. Right, there were eight of
them and I went to one game. Now that maybe
is a marriage counselor that wasn't ideal, But I don't
(46:40):
really think he gave a shit. I think he almost
would rather have me not there, like annoying him during it.
But there are other things, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (46:48):
If you have to figure out what are those things?
Speaker 2 (46:51):
One the things he really wants me to do with him, right,
there are things, And I think the travel thing is
a good example, because he doesn't want to go see, uh,
whatever the historical sites are if we're both traveling to
a different country on his own and I want to
see some of them of course, but so trying to
find some compromise there. Yeah, right, well we've solved all
(47:13):
the marriage problems in the world. Who our listeners must
be so happy, everybody, go forth and have go geta yes,
exactly exactly. Thank you, this is amazing. You're amazing.
Speaker 4 (47:27):
Good lung with you, guys. Thank you so much for
having me.
Speaker 3 (47:30):
I appreciate it and love you, Robbie, love you so much, Bye, honey.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
So a few things.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
First of all, you know Tiki Barber was on the
show for one season, yes, like right before you guys,
came along. Yeah, Jeff would have liked that.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Jeff would have died he We
were at Melissa Gorgo's for a Christmas Eve, I don't
know how many years ago, and then not many, No
Melissa for ten years but whatever, And there were these
two football players and I don't even remember what those
who are those football players at the Gorgas that Christmas?
(48:05):
Oh justin talk? Oh you were there. No, I wasn't there,
but I know that they were friendly with them. I
think John John, Pierre Paul. Anyway, whatever, the point is that.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
The guy who he's the guy who blew off his
finger with a firecracker.
Speaker 2 (48:20):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, see I do know football. Yeah whatever,
oh on the Jets doesn't matter, It doesn't matter for
our purposes. The point is that, I mean, my husband
lit up like a Christmas tree. It was like me
running into I don't know, mad Madonna. It was just
(48:44):
so crazy, like his passion is it runs really really deep.
I don't know what my point in that is other
than he's obsessed and I really haven't been. And but
there are other things like so I compromise on on
what I can. I guess I know he compromises for sure. Yeah,
like I am. I think I'm harder than he is.
For instance, on the weekends, you know, Jeff is working
(49:07):
all week and he likes to go out. I would
rather on any day. I'd rather stay home like any night.
So I won't go out two nights on a weekend
unless we have like real plans.
Speaker 1 (49:18):
That is the exact opposite of my marriage. Yeah, and
Evan likes to only go out like one time a week,
which I respect you.
Speaker 2 (49:27):
I don't even want to go out sometimes once.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
He also coaches my kids basketball like all weekends and
several nights a week. And I like to go out
a lot, at least I don't.
Speaker 2 (49:40):
If you look at my social media, it seems that
I like to go out a lot, but I don't.
I really, I really am a homebody. But I will
make myself get up and either make plans or go
out just because he wants you. That's not even a
great example. But there's so many compromises that I think
that we've you know, learned to make over the years,
and we are not. I don't want to, you know,
(50:02):
represent us as the poster children for an ideal marriage.
We have our we still obviously after all these years.
We have a lot of stuff, like everyone does.
Speaker 1 (50:11):
But it's yeah, but I can tell by the way
that you talk about your husband.
Speaker 2 (50:15):
I can.
Speaker 1 (50:16):
I mean, I've had plenty of conversations with my girlfriends
about their husbands, and I can just sense when there's
just constant frustration or when there's the occasional frustration, but
so much love.
Speaker 2 (50:25):
And you and Jeff love each other so much.
Speaker 1 (50:26):
Which is amazing to me because I always grew up
with this mindset of like, you cheat, it's over right,
you know, And I think young girls are kind of
taught that, like your spouse cheats on you and it's done.
Speaker 2 (50:39):
I feel very lucky about that. And I can't really
explain how we got here. I just feel lucky that
we did. But I would say that more than anything,
And it's the first thing that Robin pointed to. We
are best friends and he we are allies, so not
you know, doesn't mean that we don't have that we
(50:59):
don't fight, but when something happens, you know, big, not
always small. But but he's my always, my first phone
call when I'm upset, when I'm I mean, girlfriends are different, right,
There are things that I can talk to my girlfriends
about that. I wouldn't talk to Jeff about But in general,
like you know, we're just we're a team, and that
(51:22):
is what I hope. I hope, hope, hope for my
kids if they find someone and who can you know,
be on the team with them, and I hope they
have wonderful intimate relationships. But from where I sit, it's
the most important thing is to feel that friendship. You know. Yeah,
I agree with you. I love this. I love it too. Yeah,
(51:44):
so it's good, all right, you guys. We are two
Jersey days now. I was gonna say, I'm gonna go
home and have sex with my husband, but I mean,
I don't know how that led to this. So I'm
gonna go, I'm gonna I'm gonna get off the phone
and uh definitely not have sex with my husband, but
I'll compromise in another way today.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
Okay, So we're two Jersey jays. Thank you for listening,
Thanks guys for showing you.
Speaker 2 (52:05):
Bye mm
Speaker 3 (52:11):
Hm hm
Hi guys, Hi everyone. I'm Jen Fessler, I'm Jackie Goldschneider.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
And together we are two Jersey Jays and here we are.
How you doing there, jack I'm good. Everything is good.
It's beautiful out. It is beautiful out.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Finally, finally spring has sprung and everything's good. No complaints.
Kids are healthy. Aiden's walking again. You know, he broke
his knee. He's on the night we were at Madonna horrible.
He is almost fully back and we're just getting ready.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
We're going to Europe.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Nice, very nice, very excited and just happy to be
here recording another pod with my best Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
So we Jackie and I. When we were going over
what to talk about for this episode. This past week,
we had the pleasure of going to a live podcast. Uh.
TJ Holmes and Amy Roeboch did their first live podcast
after I don't know what to call it, a scandal
(01:03):
types well, it was really a scandalal type situation, but
it was if you guys don't know, it was very scandalous,
and so if you don't know, Amy and TJ were
hosts on Good Morning America for hours, yes not just
the third hour. Amy hosted throughout and TJ was also
like the sports oh okay, right, reporter throughout and he
did a lot of like filling in, so so I mean,
(01:25):
like you know, I would think like one of the
most coveted broadcasting positions that one could have, right, They
are big deals, and they had an affair, although they yeah,
they get very upset with that. They call it a relationship,
not just that, but they there were reasons they didn't
call it an affair. TJ was already I guess, had
(01:46):
already been separated from his life.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
I mean, they said that they were not in good relationships.
They were in relationships that were crumbling at the time
that they started their relationship.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
So they didn't really talk about their previous marriages, but
they talked a lot about shame. They talked a lot
about scandal, about getting fired. I mean, the news, the
paparazzi reported on it, and like days later they were
both fired from these really really high profile jobs and
(02:17):
what it was like and you know, sort of trying
to figure out they didn't even want to leave the house,
but where to go from there. So they were really
really honest and I love them both. And it's funny
because we posted about this and I got some comments
and some DM saying you had a great night with
(02:38):
Amy and tj oh you enjoy spending time with cheaters,
or because I think I said something to the effect of, like,
you know, I admire them, and so I got some
blowback for that, which kind of pisses me off in
the sense that you know, all of these high standards
that everybody is so perfect, everybody more perfect, right, And listen,
(03:03):
I'm not saying that they didn't make mistakes, and they
actually talked about that. Their worst mistake was probably keeping
it a secret for so long that they should have
taken control of the narrative. But anyway, listen, you're also
talking about a situation that I've you know, participated in
terms of infidelity, and my husband and I have both
(03:23):
experienced it, and shit happens and nobody gets away without either,
you know, being the culprit. I'm not saying just a cheating,
just there was so much judgment around what I had posted.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Yeah, so the thing that got me and I love
the podcast and I love listening to them, and I
find them both to be warm and adorable and very
in love with each other. But what I wish that
they touched on just for a second, was what happened?
Speaker 2 (03:55):
What was happening in their relationships at the time, right, you.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Know, because then you're left to one or what I
found myself wondering And I'm not second guessing them. I
don't know them, you know, but like, was the other
person blindsided?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Did they know how unhappy? Well you in TJ's I know,
in Tech's case, he had already moved out. I know.
You know, Amy talked about a photo that she had
taken in Greece and that it was just felt like
such a lie. We don't know. And again they probably
were being respectful of their you know, ex or soon
to be ex spouses. It was a podcast, It wasn't
(04:29):
a discussion with, you know, a therapist.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
But what I was left with was wondering, like, well,
what happened what happens in your old marriage?
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Like to get to that point, to get to that.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Point where you I remember one thing they said was
and because they had been friends for quite a while,
and then they said that like one day, like a
look just turns into a gaze, and like what happens
to get you to that point where the friend with
a friendship crosses over?
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Right, you know, and then the affair starts and what
happens in the marriage that you're even open to it,
which is what.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Is happening at home that you're open to it. So
today we want to talk to an expert. Yees, we'll
tell you.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Who she is about what goes on.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
In a marriage that can get you to that breaking
point and what can you do about it so that
you don't get there.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Not just not just in terms of like having an affair,
but you know, the disintegration of marriage and how to
get back from a place you know that's that's really
bad and maybe you know, get your marriage back on
track or not, when do you call it quits? So
(05:45):
you guys, today we have a very very special guest.
It's someone that I know pretty well. I've known this
person for years. She is a therapist. She has been
in the business for what thirty years. She was the
(06:06):
executive director of rehabilitation centers in Florida. She worked a lot,
has worked a lot with addiction. She is currently running
a practice here in Northern Jersey and she is beyond
booked and there's a lot of focus for her right
now on marriage counseling. I know all of this about
(06:27):
her because I've known her for fifty four years, since
she is my sister. Hi Robbie, Hi Ram introducing Robin Gutterman.
You guys, we're so excited to have you.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Here because I know that you know all about this
topic that we are going to discuss what causes the
end of a marriage, because you tell her.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Well, you know we have been We've discussed before you
hopped on, Robin that Jackie and I recently attended a
live podcast with TJ Holmes and Amy Robock. I don't
know if you know them. I think we've discussed it,
but anyway, so the two of them, they had an affair.
They were fired from Good Morning America like two days
after the word was out. It was a huge scandal,
(07:13):
and they recently, for the first time sort of shared
the story. What they really didn't do is talk too
much about their previous marriages. They didn't talk at all. Yeah, yeah,
they really were more focused on the shame that came
from the scandal, about how the affairs started, how they
became best friends. They both know TJ struggled with a
lot of depression in terms of the job he was doing.
(07:35):
So Jackie and I have just you know, been talking
a lot about them, and you know, a lot of
our listeners, I am pretty sure, struggle with these issues.
And even if it's not marriage, it could be long
term relationships. I know that. You actually just attended a
conference in Orlando, right, I.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
Did a Marriage and Family Center conference from a really
brilliant guy who is one of the top like gurus
of marriage, of marriage and family counseling.
Speaker 4 (08:05):
So I mean, you.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Take you take it people like Amy and TJ who
seem very together, they have their shit together, their beautiful, loving,
warm and you wonder what could have gone so wrong
in their previous relationships.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
That yeah, right, yeah, well, I mean they the affair
the way they've represented it, and again they didn't really
talk too much about previous marriages, but it was sort
of more about the way that they fell in love.
So we're but for our purposes, you know, I would
love to talk about what is happening in the marriage
and how does a marriage disintegrate, And I'm sure there's
(08:44):
all different ways, but to the point where an affair happens,
a divorce happens, how do you robin get people back
on track? Can you always get people back on track.
So one of the biggest issues. Yeah, let's start at
the start. What's the what's the number one thing that
tears people apart?
Speaker 3 (09:00):
Communication, I would say, or an inability to manage conflict at.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
House of what I say, is that something because we're
you know, as you know rob our podcast, we're focused
on women of a certain age, not necessarily newlyweds. But still,
I don't know, maybe these problems run, you know, in
terms of they run with newlyweds and then people have
been married for years and years. But right, tell us, like,
what is I guess communication is sort of the most
(09:31):
common issue. Does that happen at the beginning of a marriage?
Does the marriage disintegrate our kids the reason? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Does that mean you just don't talk or you don't
know how to resolve your issues?
Speaker 3 (09:41):
I mean yeah, I think there are a lot of
things that end up being the struggle for people in marriage.
One of them, I mean, things do change after you
have children, for sure, that becomes a big piece. Finances
intimacy or lack of intimacy emotionallyhysically, sexually over time, especially
(10:03):
in older women, I think that starts to decrease over
time from what I'm seeing a lot of But you know,
the things that people really focus on are the things
that keep.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
The marriage together.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
And there are three things, right, So it starts with
friendship being allies and partners in a relationship, putting each
other first, making each other a priority above anyone and
everything else is even the kids, even the kids, without
a doubt, the marriage comes before the children.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Robbie, what does that look like on like in a
practical can you give us like an example of that,
like a practical example when for people that are dealing
with the juggling the kids and the marriage.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Yeah, I think it's you know, on a daily basis,
we talk about you're either turning towards or turning away
from your partner.
Speaker 4 (10:49):
And everything that you do on a daily basis.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
So for example, you're sitting at the table, right and
you're with your partner and one if you picks up
the phone and is reading your text messages, that would
be considered a turnway. Right, you're having a conversation, you're
not giving eye contact, that would be a turnarway. One
text the other throughout the day, the other one doesn't answer,
that would be considered a turn away. There's many things
(11:13):
that we do on a daily basis that we're either
nurturing our relationship or we're doing things that set it up.
Little things all the time, all throughout the day that's
set it up for resentment over time, and it's things
that we don't think about and we don't catch. But
if the marriage isn't where it needs to be and
it's not the priority, then everything that comes underneath that
(11:34):
umbrella becomes an issue.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
But don't you have to prioritize your kids. They're needy,
they need you.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
It's not that your children aren't a priority. Of course,
your children are priority, but they're not the biggest priority.
I like to say, shit runs downhill. So if the
marriage relationship is strong, there's friendship, there's support, there's affection,
there's love, there's togetherness, there's unity and parenting all of
those things or what you're role modeling for your children. Right,
(12:03):
So if that's what we're focusing on a lot a
lot of the time, is making sure that relationship is
the most healthy, then what your kids begin to see
is what does it look like, right? What does it
look like when we have a fight as partners, Well,
it looks like we scream maybe, and we resolve it
and our kids get to see how we deal with life,
(12:24):
even though it's not perfect, how we deal with it together.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Right, So you're not saying like, if your kids have
something they need to be at, like you choose a
date night instead.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
That's not what you're saying.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
Okay, No, absolutely not. I'm just saying that the way
that you connect in your relationship needs to be the
priority over anything and everything else in your life.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
I love otherwise other therewise there's holes over time.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Yeah, you said there were three things, and the first
thing is friendship, which I love, which only in the
sense that you know this is old news ready, but
Jeff and I have had after twenty five years in April,
we've certainly had our ups and our downs and separated
for a year and a half, and there were infidelities,
and there have been lots there's lots of stuff, right
(13:09):
that's packed into that twenty five years. The thing that
I can say now is that and that I cherish
the most is the friendship is the and I think
you said like that feeling of I don't know how
you said it, but but we're such a team. All
the other stuff and I don't know what comes after
the friendship, but to me, that's for me, that's the
most important part of my relationship. That's the part that
(13:32):
I really treasure the most.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
Yeah, it's being allies, being partners, making sure the other
person knows on a daily basis that they're meaningful, that
they're important, that they're a priority, right in the little ways,
not in grand gestures, just in the little things that
we do that let the other person know that we're
leaning towards them, you know, throughout the day.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
What was the next thing?
Speaker 3 (13:55):
So the next thing is managing conflict hence communication, learning
how to fight fairly.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Right.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
I think we don't know how to listen to each other.
I think we hear each other, but we don't know
how to actively listen. And that's a skill, right, learning
how to talk to someone so they can hear you.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Okay, But when you get in a fight and it's
heated a lot of Evan and I get along great,
but there are times when we just have to walk
away from each other.
Speaker 4 (14:22):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
So what do you do in those kinds of circumstances?
Speaker 3 (14:26):
I mean, I think it's it's learning how to do
things that are going to promote healthy you know, healthy
fighting and healthy communication. So the way that you talk
to somebody you never you know, the way the.
Speaker 4 (14:40):
Choice of words that you use are a big thing.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
We don't think that they are, but all day, every day,
the choices that we use make people defensive.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Give us an example.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Yeah, so if you want to say something along the
lines of why didn't you take out the garbage? You
never take it out. I always have to do it,
and you're sitting in my office, I would say to you, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:03):
No, that's not a good way to start, right.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
Using a sentence that starts with you is going to
be me talking about somebody else's behavior and a negative capacity.
Speaker 4 (15:13):
You is the worst word on the planet to ever use.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
Instead, I'm going to say, you know, it's upsetting for
me when I feel like, you know, we both walk
by the garbage and it seems like I'm the only
one that's taking it out, and when that happens, I
feel frustrated, right as opposed to why don't you ever
do it? You never take it out? It's so annoying. Yeah,
very different way of dealing. So it's the way that
you're speaking, right that helps a conversation and it's also,
(15:41):
as you said, Jackie, taking those moments where one person
becomes flooded emotionally in a fight, which means emotionally and
physically at their fill. Right, So if the other person
says one more thing to me, I'm going to cut
runneth over, I'm going to lose my mind. Right, I'm
gonna scream, I'm gonna walk away, I'm going to do
whatever they're is. So it's important when one person is
(16:02):
flooded emotionally to be able to say, hey, I'm at
my fill. How about we take a twenty minute break
and go in the other room and calm down, and
I say, read a magazine because that's the best way
to get your body chemistry back down to normals. To
read some piece of crap that means.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Nothing online or does it have to be like us Weekly?
Did it be anything?
Speaker 3 (16:25):
It can be anything, but it can't be from a phone.
It needs to be something that you can pick up.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Interesting.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
Yeah, And it's the number one intervention for emotionally de escalating.
Speaker 4 (16:36):
You.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Wow, so interesting. I got to buy in the other room. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
You go in the other room for twenty minutes and
then you come back together and you try to start
again with an ice statement instead of a youth statement,
which will immediately begin to change just how the tone
is of the conversation.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Yeah, it does. What is the third thing? So we've
got friendship and communications.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
Conflict, managing conflict.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
Yeah, and the most important one to me after friendship, well,
all of them are important is shared meaning?
Speaker 2 (17:09):
What is that?
Speaker 3 (17:09):
So as a couple, it's how do you dump yourself
into somebody else's subjective reality. So the things that are
important to them, their hopes, their dreams, their wishes, they're
the things that make them.
Speaker 4 (17:25):
Who they are.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
How do you put yourself in that so you can
create shared meaning together. An example would be one of
my clients was talking about how she wanted to climb
on Mount Everest and the husband and was scared of heights.
So she's like, well, I've been wanting to do this
my bucket list, it's my dream. So he's petrified, but
(17:50):
he made a decision to go with her to do
this as scared as he was, and he did the
best he could and then stopped.
Speaker 4 (17:56):
They went with a guide.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
And she climbed up higher, so they oienced it something
that was her dream together and created shared meaning.
Speaker 4 (18:05):
And I think.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
That's the biggest The things that you do on a
daily basis, the rituals, right, even little things like my
husband brings me coffee Jeff for you too every morning.
What are the things that the two of you can
jump into in each other subjective reality meaning the dreams,
the hope, the wishes, the things that are important and
(18:26):
become part of it.
Speaker 4 (18:28):
So funny the growth and sake of the relationship.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
I don't ever ask Jeff what are your Well, that's
not true. I probably do, and he doesn't answer because
he's like, I'm working, but when whenever, But he's like, like,
what do you want? Like moving forward? Like what are
your We want to do different things when we travel,
so I personally know and so does See. We push because,
for instance, Jeff could spend all day long. We're about
to go to Vietnam. He's going to want to tour
(18:52):
every historical site, and I more want to see the
people in the I mean he wants to We want
to do both, but like I will, I will push myself.
I don't always, you know, want to see want to
go to every museum or want to go to every
monument and that's important him. Sometimes don't. I probably don't
push hard enough. But I feel like that's what you're saying,
(19:13):
like to actually, you know, and I and I'm trying
to think of like do you have anything real life?
Speaker 1 (19:18):
Well, I just wanted to ask so, But it's not
always an instance like it would be okay if that
husband said, you know, I'm really scared, I don't want
to do this.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
I'm like, I hope that you have fun on your own,
Like is that okay?
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Because there's oftentimes where things that I want to do
that Evan is just so uninterested in, and I say,
it's okay, I'll go do it, I'll grab a girlfriend,
I'll do it, and like we'll do something else together.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Is that okay to still?
Speaker 4 (19:45):
I mean, I think I think that it's okay.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
I think that you know, we have to compromise and
pick and shoes. We can't always just do the things
that we want to do. Sometimes we have to jump
into somebody else's love or interest because we love them
and more not about it being about them, but us
trying to understand who they are right as humans, Like
what is it about this that's so exciting for you?
(20:09):
It's like Jennifer learning football right her husband loves football.
Finally making a decision to say, all right, I've been
sitting on the couch with be bored on my phone
for the last twenty years, Right, what can I do?
What can I do different? Well, huh, maybe someone can
teach me about football. I might not like it as
much as Jeff Bessler, but now I actually might be
(20:29):
able to say, you know what a down is, you know,
and I might be able to have a conversation about
a certain correct, there are things things like that, right,
So not even all the way sharing what we can
share to become part of the other person's dream and
subjective reality, the things that are important as part of
(20:51):
their truth.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
So people, you know, a couple walks through the door
and launching it to this at the point that they're
at may not help. Like they're in the midst of
you know, one of them has had an affair, they've
been discovered, there's no intimacy left. How do you guide
people that have grown so far apart? Yeah, like don't you? Oh?
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Like so one part of me is like, of course
you try to save any way that you can.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
But the other part is like you live once life
is sure.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
You owe it to yourself to be with a partner
who really makes you happy.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Where's the line?
Speaker 4 (21:32):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
So I think that when people come in, there's two
things that I try to really teach them. One is,
are you here unconditionally meaning we got married for better
or for worse, come what may, and no mat matter
what happens, that's.
Speaker 4 (21:50):
Our goal to figure it out.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
Or I married you and it's conditional, meaning that if
I'd a part in my life where I'm different, I've
grown out of it, I'm unsure.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
Then I need to figure out, you know, kind of
where I am.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
So if two people come in and they're both unconditional, great,
they're both conditional I can still work with because it
means there's hope there. If one's unconditional and one's conditional,
I tell them they need to go home and have
a conversation.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
So like, what do you mean? So like if they
both come in and one says, no, matter what you do, asshole,
I'm sticking by you. I want to stay married to you,
and I want this, you know, until the end of time,
and the other says, well, I don't really feel it,
and if things don't change, I'm out. That's when you
know it's over. Is that what you're saying that?
Speaker 3 (22:35):
And then the other thing is if I say to
one one of the clients, tell me something good about
your significant other, tell me something good. If you can't
tell me anything good about your significant other, then you
need to go home and have a conversation, because that
means we're at the time where there's just contempt. And
if we're at a place of contempt, then we really
(22:57):
need to reevaluate.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
And you can't help at that point.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
If someone says to me that if they can't find
something good about their partner, then I'm not one of
those people that's going to try to create something where
there's nothing left.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
Okay, so other therapist, cool.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Here's a question. If you have all of those things,
you have what seems to you to be a great marriage,
the friendship, the intimacy, all of it communication, Is it
possible that one person just falls for someone else? Can
that still happen even with everything?
Speaker 4 (23:35):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (23:35):
I think, Look, it depends on how much we're nurturing
the relationship.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Right.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
We can have a good relationship just day in day
out and we're just not fighting, and we would just
have you know we have a good marriage. There's another part,
are we nurturing it or are we not and nurturing
it is more about the things that I'm talking about
with the shared meaning. People do end up having affairs
for many different reasons, which also makes a couples count
(24:00):
think very difficult. Right, So there's two things that make
it difficult, and an abusive relationship and an affair.
Speaker 4 (24:06):
Those are the two things that are very very difficult
to do with well.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
In abusive relationship, I would never advocate anybody going back
to but an affair, and I think Jen and I
sit very differently on this because I have no experience
with it.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
But can you ever.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Fully get the trust back? Like do you fully fully
trust your partner?
Speaker 2 (24:23):
Listen, I don't know. I can't answer that in a
global sense. Do I trust Jeffessler one hundred percent? Yes,
I do? And more than that, Like it's so I
don't even think about it. It's just the last thing
on my mind, you know, I don't. It's not like
I'm maybe back in the day it happened. The infidelities
(24:45):
both of ours have been so long ago, and I
guess for years afterwards, I was, you know, suspicious looking
at the phone or questioning, and I just know I
don't ever even think about it.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
I don't, but I think what Jackie said, I think
there are people that can't let it go for sure.
So you know, in counseling, I'll take a look at
I'll have an individual session. If there was an affair
and the person who had the affair, I'm going to
ask them straight out if you need to tell the
truth right there cannot be any more secrets end of it.
So if you're not willing to tell the truth to
(25:21):
the partner, I mean to your partner, to me and
to the partner, but I meet it individually, so this person,
you know, the partner will know where I stand on this,
that the truth has to happen and the secrets have
to be finished, and that the things that are discussed
in terms of an affair are discussed. Everything that that
(25:43):
the person who was this was done to, Everything is
asked except the specifics of what happened in the bedroom.
We all know what happens in the bedroom, right, We
don't need to have a conversation in therapy about what
happens in the bedroom. We know out side of that
that person engaged in this behavior and the person who
(26:05):
has been devastated deserves The answer is without secrets.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
So is it a different counseling session if there was
an emotional attachment versus just more about the sex.
Speaker 3 (26:18):
No, I think it's the same thing in terms of
what in terms of being the truth?
Speaker 4 (26:23):
Right, what's the truth?
Speaker 3 (26:24):
We're not going to have secrets in our marriage and
it's going to continue to come up over time, right
until there is trust that's built back, and trust is
built back by acting remorsefully and understanding what the other
person needs. And remorse is an action. It's not something
we say, it's something we do and how we behave.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Am I an enigma? Rob? Do you think, like how
many of the people that you counsel that where there's infidelity,
how many of them do make the marriage last and
you know, fix it?
Speaker 3 (26:53):
I mean I don't really have you know, a percentage.
It's really about what's reported and who continue used to
come back.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
You're not because Jennifer Aiden's marriage is fine? No, I
don't mean. The only one I'm just saying is it rare?
Is it really rare to be able to come back
from infidelity? I mean, I can say, like, I have
a lot a lot of friends who are divorced and
who have you know been either you know, the cheaer
or the one that was cheated on, and so it's
(27:23):
I don't see that much although maybe nobody, not a
lot of people tell me, but there's not often that
bounce back of Okay, we survived it, we're back together at.
Speaker 4 (27:31):
Least, you know what I actually do.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
I think people that are committed because of the reasons
that I said before, all the other things Jackie you
brought up, I think that if people are committed, I
think there is and invested in doing the work outside
of therapy as well, because that's where most of the
work happens. Right you're with a therapist for an hour,
and you're both committed to coming and doing what's suggested.
Speaker 4 (27:54):
I do think I have.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
I can think of, just off the top of my head,
five or six couples that had eat their emotional affairs
Jackie asked, or affairs, and they're together, two of whom
have had children since they started coming to me.
Speaker 4 (28:08):
So I do.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
I think it's really more about how invested are we
and how are we working on the things in the
marriage that help us to get to that place of
earning back the trust right and in the relationship over time,
and it's.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Got to be I don't know if this is this
is the truth or just the way. I don't really know,
but it feels to me like if we hadn't been
through that and it was a long time ago, I
don't know that we would be where we are today.
I would not recommend I'm not advocating for infidelity, really
I'm not, but I just think to myself, I still
(28:46):
have this like there's this pervasive feeling that I'm lucky,
you know, not just because I got we got back together.
There are a lot of reasons why I feel blessed
and that I have so much gratitude, But I feel
like we don't take each other for granted like we
did at the beginning of our marriage. It's not, you know,
(29:08):
it's it's not a given.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Yep, that's not Can I ask you a question just
some other things that in doing our research, we saw
that it said finances, we're the biggest cause of stress
in a relationship.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
So but what can you do about that?
Speaker 1 (29:25):
I mean, and do you advise women to have their
own money and their own bank accounts.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
I really think it just it depends on the dynamic
of the relationship. What I've actually found is most people
that are married first marriage, they have joint.
Speaker 4 (29:39):
Accounts, interestingly enough, and then.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
Most people that are on their second, third, eighteenth marriage,
they usually have their own right. So now they've figured
out for household expenses they usually have shared and for
everything else they keep separate. And that's what I've seen
the majority. I'm not sure why, Jackie. I don't know
if it's just the first time around, maybe it's just
do I think.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
It's because they maybe want to protect if they have kids,
they want to protect the kids right.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
Right, if they have divorce, if they get divorced second
time around, whatever, they have separate accounts.
Speaker 4 (30:11):
Whatever it might be. But I don't think there's anything
wrong with it. I think everything is worthy of a discussion.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Okay, a discussion.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Yeah, what about relatives? Like extended families cause a lot
of problems. What do you do about that? Because you
can't just cut off your family, Like, what do you
do about like mother in laws. I have a wonderful
mother in law, but what do you do with a
mother in law that like just won't stop interfering or
in laws in generating.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
I think it's important to first talk it out together.
What are the things that are important, you know, husband
and wife in terms of are boundaries and interference right,
what is the most upsetting? Are we listening to each
other about the things that we really need and the
things that upset us or get disrupted by family? And
(30:55):
a lot of the time it's an inability based on
a history to set boundaries right with our parents, whether
it's due to guilt, whether it's because they've been there
for us our whole lives, whether it's because there's a
dynamic that's happened since childhood that prevents them from setting
up boundaries. So I think again, it's always going to
be about a conversation. It's always going to be about
(31:16):
how do we compromise on the things that are important
to each of us when it comes to family members,
So how do we stick up a boundary. Maybe it's
a family that walks in without knocking, right, they just
come over, Then there needs to be a conversation. If
that's very disruptive to me and not to my husband,
then I need to have a conversation. And the hope
would be that depending on the dynamic, that one of
(31:39):
us would have a conversation and start with validating and
supporting the family. We love you so much, you know,
we love having you come to our house, the kids.
It makes the kids so happy, It makes us so happy.
But sometimes it's hard for us when there's just a
drop in because we have a lot of things going
on and as much you know, we love, love, love
having here. But we would so appreciate if you were,
(32:02):
you know, to get a phone call before you come,
just so we can make sure we're dressed and the
kids are you know, we're ready or whatever it might be.
Speaker 4 (32:10):
It just it makes it easier for us.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
So again, talking for you, Jackie, about what you need
instead of what the extended family or the you know,
the family members are doing to you anything, y Right,
it's what do we need to make.
Speaker 4 (32:26):
Us feel okay?
Speaker 3 (32:27):
And how can we validate and support the people that
we love while trying to put up the boundary that says, hey,
it's important to me that we get knocks on the
door before people come over because it just kind of
freaks me out.
Speaker 4 (32:39):
So we'd really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Right, So instead of attacking the other person, or what
other people are doing.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
You make it more about your needs. I love that. Yeah,
also Rob women around our age, Jackie, not you yet,
but Robin, you and me? So the empty nest thing, right, So,
I'm sure a lot of couples that you work with,
probably the kids leave and what's left now? Right when
when they've devoted so much time and effort to the kids,
(33:08):
And is it do you find a lot of that
couple struggling to reconnect after the kids are gone?
Speaker 4 (33:16):
You know?
Speaker 3 (33:17):
I think it really depends on the dynamic throughout in
the relationship.
Speaker 4 (33:22):
You know, I don't.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
I do see it, but I don't know it's interesting enough.
I don't know if I see it as much as
I thought I would see it. I think there's a
rekindling a lot of the time, or maybe that's the
time where couples do come in and want to work
on their relationship because they feel like they they put
it on the back burner.
Speaker 4 (33:43):
Yeah, I hear that, right, that they put their.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
Relationship on the back burner as secondary to the children.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
Right.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
And that's where I try to change the dynamic. Like
I said at the beginning, Oh no, no, no, no, no,
you need to be as much of a priority as
as your children. Otherwise you do end up with that. Now,
where are we after the kids are gone?
Speaker 2 (34:10):
So this is just a little funny anecdote. But years
and years ago, Rachel, my daughter was I don't know
how she was. She's a little girl, not little little,
but little whatever. Maybe she was twelve, I don't know.
But she said to me, who do you love the
most in the world? And maybe she was younger, I
(34:31):
can't whatever. I don't remember anything anymore, but but I
remember she said it to me. And I was very
conscious when I said to her, I want because I
thought I want her to feel safe, right, And I
said I love Daddy the most, which is a big Obviously,
I think I made a big mistake. But I did it.
I did it very I did. I made it. I
(34:53):
made it very like purposely because I thought for I
don't know why I would think that that that would
just make her feel like mommy and Daddy. You know,
I don't know what secure right. Anyway, she had a fit.
She bitched, such a fit, the screaming exact Zack, do
you do that? Oh my god, you see Rachel doing that?
(35:13):
You know what, Mab We just said, she said he
loves daddy bust. It was insane, and then I'm like
trying to backtrack. I'm like, no, I just said that.
I don't really mean it, Rach. I love you guys
the most.
Speaker 4 (35:25):
There's some good role modeling, Jenny, right, yes.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Exactly, but like you know that sort of like prioritizing
the kids, I would think should see you prioritize you
know your partner absolutely to be more than even not
more than that.
Speaker 4 (35:40):
What do you want them to learn? What do you
want them to learn? I want them to learn love.
You want them to learn partnership. You want them to
learn friendship, you want them to learn togetheredness. Everything that
I started with this at the beginning is what you're
role modeling on a daily basis.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
And we did not always do a great job of that.
But you know, well, now they're out of the house,
we're doing a really good job of it.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Well my kids are, and they don't love when we
go out, and I like to go out fairly often,
and I think it's a good thing, yeah, for them
to watch us, because I don't want them to grow
up and think that you have to devote your entire
life to just staying home with your kids. I mean,
of course you have to prioritize your children, but I
don't want them to just sit.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
Home, yeah with their kids. Yeah, No, I mean I
think of.
Speaker 4 (36:21):
I was just going to say.
Speaker 3 (36:21):
The other thing is I hear literally daily, I hear
when there's our problems in the marriage and people are
at the verge of divorcing or feeling that they want
to do something different.
Speaker 4 (36:32):
To staying in the marriage for the children. I hear
every day all day.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
And when do you think if.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
They're older, when the kids are older, right when they
go to college, then we'll reevaluate. But right now, we
don't want to do that to the kids. We don't
want to separate from the kids.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
What do you think of that?
Speaker 3 (36:51):
I mean, I always tell people that you can't be
in a marriage for your children. You're wasting a lot
of years. You got to look at your own happiness
and you stay in a marriage for the things that
you get from it. You don't stay in a marriage
for the things that you're fearful of losing.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Wow, I love that. I mean, I I just picturing
scenarios where it is, you know, unhealthy for the kids
to separate. I would think that is you have to
prioritize that at some level, like even if you can coexist,
then isn't that better for the kids then you know,
(37:31):
a separated household.
Speaker 4 (37:33):
But I don't. I mean, again, I don't agree. Where's
the role modeling? Then? What role modeling are you teaching
your children at that point?
Speaker 1 (37:40):
I mean a lot of friends in unhappy marriages that
just stay because the whole idea of being single again
and living alone and honestly not seeing your kids all
the time is completely overwhelming, and staying together in an
unhappy relationship is just so much easier.
Speaker 4 (37:58):
People.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
I've heard quite often people say all men cheap. I
happen to not think that's true, but realistically.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
Not everyone gets caught. How many relationships do you think
that there is adultery?
Speaker 3 (38:12):
I mean, you know, I think that there is a
big percentage. I wish I had my my notes on
me because I get asked this question all the time,
and a fifty four I can't ever remember anything. So
I mean, I definitely think there's a percentage that's you know,
maybe twenty percent, but I think I don't think it's half.
I think there are many men in this world that
(38:34):
are committed and loving and kind and respectful and want
the same thing as you know. But I also don't
think it's the end all be all either, Right, So
it happens, and if it happens, what are we going
to do. We're going to go and we're going to
make our relationship hopefully, we're going to nurture it, do
the things I'm talking about, and we're going to move
(38:55):
forward healthier, right, and happier, and we won't be the
old US, but we'll.
Speaker 4 (38:59):
Be a new, anew US.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
That's that's you know, well and improved, and that's what
we're looking for. So I don't know, I don't agree
with that all men cheat, absolutely not meither thine.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
More men cheat than women. No, really really interesting, maybe
not misdaining. Maybe back in the day it was different.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
But I can tell you if I think of my
caseload right now, it's probably fifty to fifty.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Wowly sally, Yeah, interesting.
Speaker 4 (39:27):
And that's my caseload.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
I don't know what it is, you know, with other people,
but with what I what I see, I would say
it's pretty equal. Okay, maybe maybe a slight tilt to
the men, but not really that much, not that significantly.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
I have we have like we could go on and on,
like I have questions that are like not even we
haven't even touched upon, like women that I know that
would never like Jeff walks into this house and I
am Jackie. I think you're different. Like you've said to
me that like he walks in, I don't think there's
a day that he walks in that I'm not in sweat,
that's my hair in a frizzy ponytail, no makeup, like
(40:05):
in usually in bed with food on the crumbs on
the And you said you don't. I remember you said
this man don't matter when that you do always like
to look put together with them.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
Yeah, I like to look put I mean not obviously,
not when I'm going to bed, but yeah I'm not.
I've just never been the type that walks around with
like a scraggly pony in sweats.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
But that doesn't have to do with Evan, or doesn't.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
I mean, I also want to look attractive for him.
I don't know, I like looking good for him, and
he usually doesn't like bum around looking gross either.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Well do you think that matters, Rob?
Speaker 3 (40:38):
I think it's it's it's yes, I mean I think
that it's if we're looking sexually and we're looking.
Speaker 4 (40:44):
Physically, we need to get into sex.
Speaker 3 (40:47):
No, we did, and we missed the intimacy piece with
women that are you know our age.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Yeah, listen, I have a healthy sex life, but like
for a lot of women, they are between the child
responsibilities and work and every else in life.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
Like it's just not doesn't happen. Well, Jack, we had
a podcast about sex and we talked about the fact
that there are you know, women not just on reality TV,
but in general that's claimed they have sex, you know,
not only multiple times a week, multiple times a night,
and there's you know this a lot of sex talk.
And it certainly at my age, Jack, maybe not as
much as yours, but it is not a priority. Only
(41:23):
after twenty years of marriages, there's just not a priority
like it used to be. But you know, as you
get to be our age, I know that for men
at least, this is what I know. For my friends,
this is not I'm not saying I know this for
a fact, but they want Most of my friends, the
husbands or the partners want sex a lot more than
the women do. And how to kind of reconcile that, right,
(41:46):
And how much does that affect a marriage if there's
you know, as women get older physically you become it
becomes less enjoyable, like period, right, unless you use hormones
and all of that. But the cravings I think for women,
the women that I know, definitely go down, right, And
how to navigate that in a marriage or in a
(42:07):
partnership too, I.
Speaker 4 (42:09):
Mean, I think it definitely women.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
Menopause definitely changes things a lot, but so does children, right, So,
and so I think Jackie, you had asked this, I
think ahead of time or someone asked me this about
you know, scheduling sex, right, So sometimes it's not as
much about how often.
Speaker 4 (42:30):
It's about making sure that it.
Speaker 3 (42:32):
Is a priority and fitting in as a balance with
the other things that are important in our lives. And
at different ages, there's different things that are priorities, right,
So I think it just depends. But scheduling sex, to me,
when you have crazy life and you have children, and
you have activities and jobs and all those things, I
don't care if you put it on the calendar. I
(42:52):
think it's a healthy thing to do.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Good because we quite often have to schedule sex, and
I would absolutely. I've always wondered if that just just
joys the intimacy that that part of it, Like we're
like Thursday, nine thirty, can you we call it a
conference call so that my kids, I hope my kids
listen to.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
This, so that they don't, you know, die of embarrassment.
But we do know.
Speaker 4 (43:14):
I think, yes, I think it's I think.
Speaker 2 (43:17):
And what do you do in the marriages where where
the one of the partners wants it and so much
more than the other. What, Just like.
Speaker 3 (43:28):
Everything else, I guess it's it's about we have to
make sure that we're nurturing the other parts that create intimacy,
the emotional, the physical, the affection, the conversation, the things
that may be additionally fuel us in terms of how
we feel, and with sex as well, and partners aren't
(43:48):
going to be on the same page. So, like everything else,
success in marriage is based on compromise, and it's based
on an ability to vent our needs and our wants.
That's the other main thing that keeps a marriage together
is ability to vent and making sure that again we're
putting ourselves in each other's subjective reality, right, shared meaning,
(44:09):
and if something's more important to one person than the other.
Then we need to find a compromise. So it's not
all the time, it's a compromise.
Speaker 2 (44:15):
So is that saying because I would I hear like
women in the back of my head saying you should
never have sex if you don't feel like it, Like,
I'm sure that a lot of that's probably a pretty
I don't know. I don't want to get myself in
trouble here, but a little bit of a fit, right right? Yeah?
And is it healthy to have sex because your partner
(44:40):
really wants it and you want to make them happy physically,
even if you're not in the mood.
Speaker 4 (44:49):
Yeah, I do think it's okay.
Speaker 3 (44:51):
So I might get about a backlash on this too,
based on the world we live in today. But if
I'm going from the perspective of shared meaning, and I'm
going from a place of real love and a desire
for connection, and I'm not saying all the time, but yes,
if there is this a night and I'm absolutely exhausted
or I had a terrible day and I'm in a
(45:11):
terrible mood, am I then gonna force myself to do something?
Probably not. But if it's just it's one of those
nights and I just, you know, rather go to bed
and my husband is into it. There's other things we
can do to be intimate, right, we don't have to
have sex. There are other things we can do physically
and sexually without having intercourse.
Speaker 4 (45:31):
Other things that we can do.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
Yeah, that's a whole lot of conversation with you, sister.
I love this.
Speaker 1 (45:43):
I thought it was so good too. It makes me
feel very fortunate. But I do recognize things that you know,
Evan wants that I tell him to go do on
his own, that I could probably give more of myself too.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
But also, like I don't like we have when we
there are things like the football thing, Rob, that my
husband is obsessed with football. Like I was never going
to become a football wife. I wasn't gonna sit down,
you know and watch football games on Sundays, but Robin
mentioned that. Yes, Like more recently, I had a friend
(46:18):
kind of explained to me. I was like, it just
became a little more enjoyable that I could share that
with him. But he also was never like he never
gave me shit about it. Like Jeff. In his family,
there have been Giant season Giants season tickets for since
Jeff was a little boy. Right, there were eight of
them and I went to one game. Now that maybe
is a marriage counselor that wasn't ideal, But I don't
(46:40):
really think he gave a shit. I think he almost
would rather have me not there, like annoying him during it.
But there are other things, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (46:48):
If you have to figure out what are those things?
Speaker 2 (46:51):
One the things he really wants me to do with him, right,
there are things, And I think the travel thing is
a good example, because he doesn't want to go see, uh,
whatever the historical sites are if we're both traveling to
a different country on his own and I want to
see some of them of course, but so trying to
find some compromise there. Yeah, right, well we've solved all
(47:13):
the marriage problems in the world. Who our listeners must
be so happy, everybody, go forth and have go geta yes,
exactly exactly. Thank you, this is amazing. You're amazing.
Speaker 4 (47:27):
Good lung with you, guys. Thank you so much for
having me.
Speaker 3 (47:30):
I appreciate it and love you, Robbie, love you so much, Bye, honey.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
So a few things.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
First of all, you know Tiki Barber was on the
show for one season, yes, like right before you guys,
came along. Yeah, Jeff would have liked that.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Jeff would have died he We
were at Melissa Gorgo's for a Christmas Eve, I don't
know how many years ago, and then not many, No
Melissa for ten years but whatever, And there were these
two football players and I don't even remember what those
who are those football players at the Gorgas that Christmas?
(48:05):
Oh justin talk? Oh you were there. No, I wasn't there,
but I know that they were friendly with them. I
think John John, Pierre Paul. Anyway, whatever, the point is that.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
The guy who he's the guy who blew off his
finger with a firecracker.
Speaker 2 (48:20):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, see I do know football. Yeah whatever,
oh on the Jets doesn't matter, It doesn't matter for
our purposes. The point is that, I mean, my husband
lit up like a Christmas tree. It was like me
running into I don't know, mad Madonna. It was just
(48:44):
so crazy, like his passion is it runs really really deep.
I don't know what my point in that is other
than he's obsessed and I really haven't been. And but
there are other things like so I compromise on on
what I can. I guess I know he compromises for sure. Yeah,
like I am. I think I'm harder than he is.
For instance, on the weekends, you know, Jeff is working
(49:07):
all week and he likes to go out. I would
rather on any day. I'd rather stay home like any night.
So I won't go out two nights on a weekend
unless we have like real plans.
Speaker 1 (49:18):
That is the exact opposite of my marriage. Yeah, and
Evan likes to only go out like one time a week,
which I respect you.
Speaker 2 (49:27):
I don't even want to go out sometimes once.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
He also coaches my kids basketball like all weekends and
several nights a week. And I like to go out
a lot, at least I don't.
Speaker 2 (49:40):
If you look at my social media, it seems that
I like to go out a lot, but I don't.
I really, I really am a homebody. But I will
make myself get up and either make plans or go
out just because he wants you. That's not even a
great example. But there's so many compromises that I think
that we've you know, learned to make over the years,
and we are not. I don't want to, you know,
(50:02):
represent us as the poster children for an ideal marriage.
We have our we still obviously after all these years.
We have a lot of stuff, like everyone does.
Speaker 1 (50:11):
But it's yeah, but I can tell by the way
that you talk about your husband.
Speaker 2 (50:15):
I can.
Speaker 1 (50:16):
I mean, I've had plenty of conversations with my girlfriends
about their husbands, and I can just sense when there's
just constant frustration or when there's the occasional frustration, but
so much love.
Speaker 2 (50:25):
And you and Jeff love each other so much.
Speaker 1 (50:26):
Which is amazing to me because I always grew up
with this mindset of like, you cheat, it's over right,
you know, And I think young girls are kind of
taught that, like your spouse cheats on you and it's done.
Speaker 2 (50:39):
I feel very lucky about that. And I can't really
explain how we got here. I just feel lucky that
we did. But I would say that more than anything,
And it's the first thing that Robin pointed to. We
are best friends and he we are allies, so not
you know, doesn't mean that we don't have that we
(50:59):
don't fight, but when something happens, you know, big, not
always small. But but he's my always, my first phone
call when I'm upset, when I'm I mean, girlfriends are different, right,
There are things that I can talk to my girlfriends
about that. I wouldn't talk to Jeff about But in general,
like you know, we're just we're a team, and that
(51:22):
is what I hope. I hope, hope, hope for my
kids if they find someone and who can you know,
be on the team with them, and I hope they
have wonderful intimate relationships. But from where I sit, it's
the most important thing is to feel that friendship. You know. Yeah,
I agree with you. I love this. I love it too. Yeah,
(51:44):
so it's good, all right, you guys. We are two
Jersey days now. I was gonna say, I'm gonna go
home and have sex with my husband, but I mean,
I don't know how that led to this. So I'm
gonna go, I'm gonna I'm gonna get off the phone
and uh definitely not have sex with my husband, but
I'll compromise in another way today.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
Okay, So we're two Jersey jays. Thank you for listening,
Thanks guys for showing you.
Speaker 2 (52:05):
Bye mm
Speaker 3 (52:11):
Hm hm
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