January 16, 2025 • 36 mins
Teddi and Erika are joined by psychotherapist, Dr. Nadine Macaluso, the real-life inspiration behind Naomi Belfort's character in "The Wolf of Wall Street."
Dr. Nadine gives us a deep dive into trauma bonds, manipulation tactics, as well as the signs people can look out for from a pathological and narcissistic partner.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:11):
Hi, guys, Welcome to another episode of Diamonds in the
Rough with Me and Erica, and we are bringing on
Doctor Nadine aka Doctor Nay.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
She is known to her patients as Doctor Nay. She
is the real life inspiration behind Naomi Belford's character in
The Wolf of Wall Street. I mean, I think we
all watched that movie with Margot Robbie and Leonardo DiCaprio,
but it wasn't just a movie, it was actually really
She survived a turbulent eight year marriage to Jordan Belfort,
(00:46):
marked by abuse, greed, and trauma. Following her experiences, Doctor Macuso,
which is Doctor Nadine, relocated to California. Her journey of
trauma and healing inspired her to return to school at
the age of thirty nine, where she earned her Masters
in Counseling and a PhD and somatic psychotherapy. She further
specialized with a two year postdoctoral training in the neuro
(01:09):
effective relational model. She also has a book Run Like Hell,
A Therapist Guide to Recognizing, Escaping, and Healing from Trauma bonds.
At age twenty two, she married Jordan the Nefario stockbroker
portrayed in the Hollywood blockbuster the Wolf of Wall Street.
The marriage began as a fairy tale, but once they
were bonded, Jordan's mask began to slip, and acts of infidelity,
(01:32):
narcissistic abuse, and insatiable greed and uncontrollable drug addiction became
Nadine's nightmare. She's here, so I feel like she could
give us more information than I can read off of
her bio.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
So let's talk.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Let's talk. Hey guys, Hi, how are you?
Speaker 5 (01:54):
Oh good, how are you doing?
Speaker 2 (01:57):
We're doing okay, but we would love to hear just
a little bit of like your backstory, and then we'll
start asking questions and doing that kind of stuff, if
that works for.
Speaker 5 (02:06):
You, sures sure. So, well, you know who I was
married to?
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Yeah, yeah, and hold on.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
He's a motivational speaker now, correct.
Speaker 5 (02:19):
Isn't that amazing? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (02:22):
He is.
Speaker 5 (02:23):
And so you know, I met him when I was
twenty two. I was so young and clueless, and this
was thirty years ago before and we was talking about
narcissism or trauma bonds or anything like that, right, And
so then I left him about eight years later and
restarted my life in la. I've lived in Manhattan Beach
for twenty four years. So my heart is broken for
(02:44):
Los Angeles right now. And I went back to school
at thirty nine, got my master's, got my doctorate. And
what was happening in my practice was I saw all
these smart, kind, beautiful women coming in being betrayed, having
financial abuse, being lied to, being coercively controlled. And I
(03:06):
was like, we have a problem. And I went back
to the research and wrote my book and now it's
my specialty.
Speaker 6 (03:14):
For any of us that's our listening, Could you explain
what a trauma bond is? Yeah, I think people look,
I think they have an idea, but from an experts you.
Speaker 5 (03:24):
Know, yeah, sure, sure, So a trauma bond is a toxic,
dysfunctional relationship between two emotionally attached people. There are a
few things that make it different. One of the things
is that the pathological person or perpetrator wants power and
control over their partner. That is their main mission while
(03:46):
they are so much whatever they call in love with
this person. Right, But it has to have two conditions
for it to be a trauma bond. There has to
be a powering balance. One person folds the power and
they exploit the power. Right, they can have it because
they have more resources.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
See financial power. It could be anything. You think that these.
Speaker 6 (04:08):
Personalities know what they are doing or are they just themselves?
Speaker 5 (04:13):
I think it's both. They are just themselves. They have
personality disorders, so they think this is just who I am,
But they totally know what they're doing because they will harm, lie, exploit,
and betray anyone in everyone to get their needs met
for money, power, pleasure, and status. Right, and the second
piece of the trauma bond is the intermit and reinforcement,
(04:35):
where seventy percent of the time they're cruel, they're controlling,
they're betraying, their abusive, but that thirty percent they're kind,
generous and helpful.
Speaker 6 (04:46):
And almost I'm almost like overly kind overly.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Yeah, overly complimentary, like I'm sure.
Speaker 6 (04:54):
That you got all the presence and all the trips
and all the shit right right right comfort and made
you feel loved and made you feel like it's not
that bad. Okay, he doesn't talk to me for two weeks,
but I can stick it out right right because.
Speaker 5 (05:10):
I would get into a fight and then there would
be a horse in my driveway right as about So
there were these very so what happens is the extremity
of these two behaviors that they exhibit toward us is
actually what creates the bonds, because the research shows animal
trainers who use intermate reinforcement the animals bond to them
(05:32):
two hundred and thirty percent more than just straight kindness.
Speaker 6 (05:36):
Wow, are these personalities born or are they made?
Speaker 4 (05:40):
I was going to ask, is this learned or is
this learned?
Speaker 5 (05:44):
It's learned. It's usually learned behavior, or they grow up
too entitled, or they're overly abused.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Even though we think that narcissists have these big egos,
they're actually the most insecure.
Speaker 5 (05:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:59):
Is that accurate?
Speaker 5 (06:00):
Yeah, that can be accurate. And you know, I use
the term pathological lover because I think they're much more
than narcissists. They usually have some psychopathy, right, That's why
sometimes they're criminals. They have sadism, and then they have machiavellianism,
which means they're highly strategic and manipulative as Erica. You know,
(06:23):
I'm not telling you, you don't know, I'm just maybe
giving you names for it, you know.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
Just confirming everything that I've experienced.
Speaker 5 (06:31):
I know, unfortunately they live through.
Speaker 6 (06:34):
Yeah, it's okay, I mean, you know, it's also interesting
to speak to someone who's also basically been through the
same thing, and it's nice that it really says a
lot to your character that you took this experience and really,
you know, went to school and are helping other women.
(06:56):
But it's it's hard when you're living with someone like
this because they're not all bad, but they're great, and
it's they're sort of mercurial in the way that they are,
and they there and I'm sure your ex husband too,
was very bright, and that's very bright, and that's how
they pull the shit off, because if you're a ding dong,
(07:17):
you cannot piculate all of these systems and all of
these people to your advantage.
Speaker 5 (07:23):
That's right, that's right. And you know they're you know,
they're true con artists, right because they wear the mask
and I call the two masks Romeo and Dirty John
or Doctor Jekyl and mister Hyde. But they can wear
that mask and have this amazing public image and trick everybody,
but then behind the scenes, you know, be very manipulative
(07:44):
and cruel to us, which can make it even more
confusing because now we are like gaslighting ourselves like it's
not that bad.
Speaker 6 (07:54):
It's not that bad. I can stick out. It's really okay,
what's wrong with me? I should be grateful. This is
better than it could be. You know, it could always
be worse. Dah da da da. I think that we
as women, or especially women are are a lot more
susceptible to this entire thing. And I don't know about
your ex husband, Jordan, but Tom had some of the
(08:16):
best social skills I've ever seen in my entire life.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Oh yeah, most of the time, there's always an extreme
talent involved with this.
Speaker 5 (08:26):
Correct correct? Correct? You know my ex is a grandiose narcissist, right,
he is the best seller in the world. I mean,
who does what he did and write a book and
then get the best people in the world to make
the book.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
Now, he's a motivational speaker.
Speaker 5 (08:41):
Yea motivational speaker. So yeah, And that's why I wrote
my book because I really wanted to take the stigma
away from the victim, because we're constantly asking like, didn't
she know? Why did she stay? Instead of asking no,
why does he do that?
Speaker 2 (08:56):
I also want to know, like what it is, because
you know, I have a history in my life of
meeting people and thinking that.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
I don't know maybe.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
It's that I'm not enough and that I can make
them better and that I'm going to create this new life,
and then that gives me this whole that I'm feeling
in my heart or whatever it may be. Yes, yes,
what is it that creates us to do that?
Speaker 5 (09:27):
Do we all have deficits? And do we all have
some form of developmental trauma? And do we all have
things that we need to fix about ourselves? Of course,
but that's different than pathology.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
Pathology.
Speaker 6 (09:40):
For anybody that's listening that may may not know, could
you explain pathology?
Speaker 5 (09:44):
Pathology is someone who's mentally on well because they will
use harm and exploit anybody and everybody. You know, we
I went into my relationship with the intention to love
and connect. That didn't mean I didn't have my imperfections,
but it's the motive behind the behavior. I didn't go
in to use exploit, betraying control.
Speaker 6 (10:16):
I'm going to ask you a question you and this
is just I'm asking from a personal point. So okay,
looking back, yes, were you ever confused at what you
were looking at or what you were experiencing? Even post
even looking back now, like, was I really did I
(10:37):
miss something?
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Did I experience that why what is not clicking? What
was true? Really like what was true about my life?
Speaker 5 (10:45):
Yes, that is very common, And there's a symptom that's
only for from a trauma band usually like cognitive dissionpines.
It's called which is the mental confusion that you feel
because you're constantly battling is a good? Is he bad? Am? I?
Is he crazy? Is a relationship? Good? Is a relationship AAD?
And so you have three different layers of cognitive dissonance
(11:07):
about you, him and the relationship that keep you totally
confused jury And it's one hundred percent symptom after trauma
badd Yes, it's a part. Yeah, so you have cognitive dissonance,
loss of self, and complex post traumatic stress disorder afterwards.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
And do you find that it makes people like I
feel like in general, ever since I've been a child,
I've had a very hard time being present, Okay, conversation,
Like if I'm with my kids, that's one thing, but
kind of any other situation, it's like my guard is
always like I'm here always, You're.
Speaker 5 (11:47):
Like you're always being like being feeling hypervigilant.
Speaker 4 (11:50):
And yes, and so is that a sign of that?
Speaker 2 (11:53):
And then like, I guess that's one question, and then
the next question is like, as we're all moving to new.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
Chapters of our life, like what is the difference? There's
trauma bonded.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
And then a word that we hear a lot in
twenty twenty four, twenty twenty five is love bombing. I
don't fully under Yeah, what exactly is that?
Speaker 5 (12:13):
So love bombing is a manipulation tactic, right, So it's
working for somebody to buy flowers and take you to
a nice center. But love bombing is intense, and it's
like constant admiration and adoration and constant texting and where
are you? And we're soulmates after two weeks? Right, And
I have a saying if it feels too good to
be true? And probably.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
Yeah, yeah, I think that. You know, it's interesting.
Speaker 6 (12:40):
I remember when like Tom and I were married, he'd
called me forty times a day.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
There I go normal and when you try for me, right.
Speaker 5 (12:49):
But it's not normal, it's not healthy.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
No.
Speaker 6 (12:52):
But in the when I tell people this, they're like,
that's impossible. I was like, No, that was how I lived,
you know.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
I lived like that.
Speaker 6 (12:58):
For over twenty year, where I could get the most
charming most loving human being, and then there would be
this slight, you know, flick of the eye, and it'd
be completely different, or I mean, or to wash him
twist in front of someone else, like I've seen so
many things. But then and I don't know how you felt,
(13:20):
but I saw him do really generous things for people.
And I'm thinking, okay, let's talk about my Gabellianism or
you know, my abilia.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
What you know?
Speaker 6 (13:32):
What is true? What was true? What was this person's
true true personality? Was any of it real? Why was
I susceptible to that? Why did I buy into all
of that? And why did I defend that? And it's
a very difficult place to be, as you know, And
when you've never dealt with a personality like this, it
(13:52):
almost seems impossible.
Speaker 5 (13:54):
Yeah, And here's the thing, right, is that if you
are a trusting person, we just assume everybody's like us.
We can't even imagine that somebody like this exists until
we experience it. And again, it's those extreme kind, generous
mixed with the extreme crazy, controlling, brutal behaviors that cause
(14:16):
cognitive dissonance, and it keeps you tracked. It's the glue
cognitive dissonance is the glue, and when you see them nice,
you get hopeful. What wait, though, that is really who
they are, and then that's the book.
Speaker 6 (14:30):
It almost even becomes more sweet when you see them like,
It becomes sweeter and they're nicer, and they're far more
loving and generous. And it's the unpredictable element of these
personalities is really what drives or at least drove me
to be like, what the heck am I dealing with? Right?
Speaker 5 (14:50):
Because it's not a psychle because if it was psycho
we could predict it. You never know when the behavior's coming.
Speaker 4 (14:57):
So that's narcissists actually love you.
Speaker 5 (15:01):
Well, you know, narcissism runs on a spectrum, right, So
I think there are some people that have severe rigid
personality disporters, and they're not going to change, and they're
not capable of love the way you and I think
about it, because they can't have empathy, they can't have compassion,
(15:22):
and love has two qualities, quality of connection and giving
someone the space to be who they are, and a
lot of times they can't do that, so often they're
not capable of loving us the way we need to
be loved.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
I think that they're own version of love.
Speaker 6 (15:38):
Like I think that they feel to a point, but
ultimately they're going to put themselves or their business or
their personal persona on their public persona.
Speaker 5 (15:46):
First, right, And yeah, and we're not objects, right, We're like,
we're really more like objects to them. And again they
will use home, exploit and betray us to get their
needs met for money, power, pleasure, and status. And I
just don't think that's love.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Is there a checklist or something equivalent to like the
signs for somebody to look out for?
Speaker 5 (16:11):
Yes, in my book, I have a pathological lover checklist
and I have it on my website And here we go.
If you meet a guy and they're like, my eggs
is crazy, probably a reason why probably made her crazy?
Right away, starts to catch them in lies, right, starts
to be a little disrespectful, belittling you, blames you for everything,
(16:36):
words not matching actions, lacks of more skills or compassion. Right,
So I have sexual promiscuity, extreme substance abuse. Right, So
they all don't have every single thing, but all my
pathological lover checklists, I've forgot how many items there are.
If they score over certain amounts, run like cow don't wait,
(16:59):
because the longer you stay, the more you want to
invest into the relationship. Then you're like, oh god, I
got to stay. I invested.
Speaker 6 (17:08):
I want to ask you. We're talking mostly about men,
but this is also true in women. Yeah, yes, so
men or you know, anyone that any.
Speaker 5 (17:20):
Any sexual orientation, like any you know, any configuration of
our relationship. It can happen between Boston employee. It can
happen between friends, you know, it can happen in different
types of relationships, especially when there's a hierarchical difference right power.
Speaker 6 (17:38):
And balance, whether it be financial or you know, professional,
that's usually the opportunity for these personalities to come in
and get you.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
I mean, not get you, but yeah.
Speaker 7 (17:48):
Yeah, yeah, you become pray for them and and a
lot of times they gain power, Like my ex did
because he was so threatening and dominating and intimidating.
Speaker 5 (18:00):
I fear him, so did I. Oh, I had severe fear. Yeah.
Speaker 6 (18:06):
And when I tell people that, they just kind of
look at me like he was an older man, and
I was like, yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
They're so even. So I have a question.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Do you think that somebody that is potentially raised by
a narcissist is more prone to then want to be
married to one.
Speaker 5 (18:27):
You can be more prone because you had, you know,
a lacking for a father that wasn't there, or you
grew up with some developmental trauma. But in my book,
and this is what the research shows, there's a great
book called Women Who Love Psychopaths where I got a
lot of my research from, and I know it's a
great title. And what the research showed is that women
(18:50):
that score very high in certain personality traits and again
anybody could take it on my website, such as agreeableness
or conscientiousness means they're loyal, intolerance and pro social, or
very determined and disciplined, they are actually perfect prey for
these men. And I score very high in both because
(19:12):
those qualities that are good. But women comes to me
and she's like, I'm organized and I'm loving. I'm not
going to say, oh, we're going to therapize that out
of you. They get weaponized by this personality. They take
advantage of it. So it's not just that dysfunctional women.
You know, of course, yes there is there a reenactment
(19:35):
of relational trauma. Yes, but anyone in everyone in full
prey to these people.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
How long did it take you to recover? Oh? How
about this? Or have you?
Speaker 4 (19:50):
And did you find another person like him right after?
Speaker 5 (19:53):
That's what I know. I dated a lot, I had
a lot of fun, and then I'm married for twenty
three years with my husband twenty five years. It took me,
I would say, a few years, and I've been in
a lot of therapy.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
And what was the final straw?
Speaker 5 (20:11):
Oh for me, Well, he kicked me down the stairs
when I told him I wanted him to get sober,
and so that was beyond scary. And the second straw
was when I told him how when he did get sober,
how hard it all was. He was like, it wasn't
that bad. And that lack of remorse put me over
(20:32):
the edge. And then once he got arrested and got
an ankle wrestlet, I knew I was safe because he
had lost all his power. The power and balance shifted. Yeah,
it's like bye bye. So I had three last straws.
Speaker 4 (20:45):
Yeah, and you guys co parent, right, you have kids?
Speaker 3 (20:48):
Yes? We do?
Speaker 5 (20:48):
We do? We do?
Speaker 2 (20:50):
And how does that work?
Speaker 5 (20:51):
It works great? Because the power and balance shifted, So
I kind of got lucky. I always say that he
got arrested in a strange way. But my kids are great.
My daughter's a therapist, my son's a businessman. Like they're
doing great.
Speaker 6 (21:08):
I'm happy to hear that. I'm happy to hear that,
you you know, are stay happy. Children are wonderful. We
came out the other side. But you know, we did
a lot of work.
Speaker 5 (21:19):
We processed.
Speaker 6 (21:20):
We didn't pretend, you know, having to go through something
like this which is super public, and having people weigh
in not really understanding, uh, you know, where I was
coming from or what I was experiencing.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
And everything sort of filling in the blanks.
Speaker 6 (21:38):
It's very difficult because it oftentimes takes a toll on
what am I really going through?
Speaker 3 (21:44):
What am I seeing? Like how how do I.
Speaker 6 (21:46):
Sift through this this entire blur of a life and
really get down to how do I heal and how
do I pull myself together?
Speaker 3 (21:55):
Because that was the ultimate goal, Like I can roll them.
Speaker 5 (21:58):
Okay, you could have control Tom. Oh my god, I
just got in control. I mean please, I was.
Speaker 6 (22:05):
As good as Jordan, okay, right, Like you weren't controlling
Tom and you were not responsible for his behavior. No,
and I and I and I know that, but knowing
that and feeling that are two completely different things.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
Yeah, like and feeling that from the.
Speaker 6 (22:22):
Inside out and saying, you know what, Erica, these things
happened to you. There was some beautiful experiences, there were
some bad experiences, but ultimately that's over and he's gone
and you know whatever. But now I have to pull
myself together and move forward. And that, I think is
like it's the sweetest thing, but it's also the hardest
(22:44):
thing because you're totally it's almost like a you have
to look back and say what was true about that
life and who and what is this?
Speaker 3 (22:53):
It can be very heavy.
Speaker 5 (22:55):
Well, it is very heavy. It is very heavy. I
mean that's the whole last section my book all about
healing because the research shows though victims of this sort
of abuse, seventy five percent of them go on to
experience post traumatic growth if they do the work. So
you're going to be in that group. You're going to
experience post traumatic growth because you're putting in the work
(23:18):
and it is possible, but yeah, it takes a lot
of work.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
But I also have another question, like there's.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Like we went to like, you know, this whole couple's
therapy thing, and it announced me as an introvert, and
like it was shocking information for everybody, even though I've
been saying this my entire life. I'm like, no, Like,
if I'm being paid to show up and do it,
I can do it. But like I'm naturally an introvert,
(23:47):
so I enjoy my alone time. I need to like
recharge all of these things. But there's moments that I'm
feeling now where I feel really low and I don't
know if those loneliness feelings mean that I've made a
(24:09):
mistake or like this is just something I have to
get used to and this is like the new change
in my life and oh my god, I'm so embarrassing
and getting emotional.
Speaker 5 (24:18):
But like.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
That is such a confusing part of all of this,
Like are you supposed to power through or like are
you supposed to give it? Like I don't know, Oh no, No.
Speaker 5 (24:32):
I think loneliness is that I was very very lonely,
painfully lonely, and I had my kids, you know, and
I was like, why am I so lonely? Same exact
way you're feeling, Yeah, And I found that I think
that's a very normal process of it. I think that
we are built for connection. We're social beings and I
(24:53):
what really really helped me was journaling. That's what helped
me deal with that loneliness. And I think it's a
very normal process of it. And I don't I don't
know your situation well enough, but I don't think it
means that you need to go back. I think it's
something that you're going to learn to develop a deeper
relationship with yourself. Yeah, and you will. But it's very common.
(25:18):
And I'm sorry going through that. I have a lot
of empathy for you.
Speaker 6 (25:21):
Thank you the thick of it right now, you know,
and it's very fresh and very hard, and I feel
for her because none of this is easy and to
pick yourself up and like even be on a podcast
today and talk about it. You know, Teddy, you need
to cut yourself a break. If you didn't say you
felt lonely, I would be worried that you were.
Speaker 5 (25:42):
Like Yeah, and Teddy, I remember the loneliness being like gainful.
I remember like an ink.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
And it's a constant ache that I'm trying to like
fake my way through.
Speaker 5 (26:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
But then it's like and I have talked about this
in therapy. Then it's almost like I'm attracted to like
another chaotic situation.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
You know.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
I don't want to give too much away about my
parents or anything like that, but like, clearly my dad
was a rock star. He met some girl he met
at the Rainbow Room and it was my mom, and
they had babies and he was married already.
Speaker 4 (26:27):
Like everything was a shit show.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
So like clearly there's been a lot of ups and
downs in my life, and I my only goal has
ever been like I just want to give like my
kid's stability. Yeah, And I don't know, I guess I
just I don't know if it's loneliness or I feel scared.
I also don't feel like maybe I'm enough, you know,
(26:51):
like all those things.
Speaker 5 (26:52):
Yeah, I mean, what's your listen, let's think about it.
So there's loneliness, which is really fear and insecurity, right,
But then there is is you know, like reflection, like
trying to figure it all out. And then there's a
degrief right for the life that you're not going to
have anymore. And they're all normal feelings, you know, And
(27:14):
that's why sometimes when you leave this very chaotic experience,
it's good just to hunger down, be with you and
your kids, you know, do what you're doing. But I
implore you not to judge your feelings. They're all okay.
(27:34):
It's like we get so hard on ourselves and they're
shame too. Write you mentioned, yeah, so much shame. So
there's so much shame. And shame is the worst to
deal with because it means like I'm broken, I don't matter,
I can't be fixed. But that's not true. You've just
gone through a relational trauma. I implore you don't judge yourself.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
That he's always been hard on herself.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
Well, the world has always been hard on me.
Speaker 5 (28:00):
Nom we got to fire. You're in a critic don't
internally you know it's so hard. You guys are in
the spotlight. I don't even know how you do it, honestly,
But I don't internalize. Everybody else projects all over you, guys.
That's all it is is projection.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
If you're in a varian retirement and like you're looking
to like expand your life in a relationship, like, how
do you find yourself in a place where you don't
put yourself exactly where you were before?
Speaker 3 (28:28):
Right?
Speaker 5 (28:29):
So that's why I say, go to therapy. Take your
personality trait tests. You have to know your attachment pattern.
You have to know your personality traits. You have to
understand your developmental trauma. You have to understand yourself before
you can really choose effectively. And I have two sayings
about that, if somebody can hear you, they can love you.
(28:50):
And my husband, my current husband, I'll never forget the
first one. We had an argument and I was and
he goes, yeah, I can see that. I was like,
what you can see that you can hear me? And
it's also when you do enough work on yourself, and
the work is never ending. I'm fifty seven and I
still work on myself. You learn to trust yourself, and
(29:14):
you will.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
I believe that.
Speaker 6 (29:16):
I believe that trusting yourself is the true is the
true win in all of this is like being able
to say, you know what, Erica, no, that is not right,
and being sure, like just knowing it from your gut,
like this is not right, that is not okay, or
this is right.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
You know, this feels good.
Speaker 5 (29:38):
That's right? And what's the body? Don't trust the mind
because that's where that you go in all the distortions,
but the body doesn't lie, like you say, when that
gut goes this is right, then you go don't ignore
the uh oh, like I did when my ex asked
me to get engaged and I said, yes, I grabbed
the five carrot diamond. But my gut said, uh oh,
So don't don't the guy.
Speaker 6 (30:01):
It's easy to be distracted by sparkley things.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
So while we're on the topic of some of these relationships,
let's talk about some of the high profile relationships that
have kind of come to an end this year. We've
got Jessica Albat and Cash Warren. They're divorcing after sixteen
years of marriage. She said they didn't always treat each
other the best before they split, and they had become roommates.
Speaker 4 (30:41):
Do you think that's common, especially after having kids or.
Speaker 5 (30:46):
Yeah, that can happen for sure, right that, you know,
to keep your sex life alive, it takes intention. And
if you don't feel emotionally connected, especially women, they're not
turned on, right, So I know exactly what's happening with
their relationship. But I think that that can happen very.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
Readily, Sophie, if you're not actively working on pursuing the
intimacy of your relationship, even if somebody is not a narcissist,
even if there's not these issues like you're going to
have distance.
Speaker 5 (31:22):
You're going to have it ends. Also the emotional intimacy.
You know what's sexy is constantly revealing yourself and getting
vulnerable with more and letting them know you. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
Then we've got Sophie Turner and Joe Jonas have been
an extremely public custody battle. People believe Joe was weaponizing
the press against his ex wife. We know now publicly
that Joe Jonas, Brad Pitt, and some others they've all
used the same pr company, which is I think quite
(32:00):
common in Los Angeles.
Speaker 5 (32:03):
Yeah, I'm not surprised essentially that.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
The question is when you see an ex start weaponizing
their partner as a bad parent or this or that campaign.
Speaker 5 (32:15):
Oh yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 4 (32:18):
So what's like the appropriate response when that happens? From silence?
Speaker 5 (32:23):
I didn't say silence. Yeah I would. I would not
give it airtime because you know your truth, you know
the type of person you are, and it'll die down.
They'll be in your headsline as we know tomorrow, and
I would not waste my breath on that. Like when
the movie came.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
Out, I'm like, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 5 (32:49):
I said nothing, you know what, because I had nothing
to say, Now I use the movie and I exploit
it to help women everywhere.
Speaker 4 (32:56):
That she is the exploit.
Speaker 5 (32:58):
But but I wasn't going to have Ben myself because
I know who I am.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
Yeah, yeah, I tried that. It didn't work out.
Speaker 5 (33:07):
Yours was so different, you know, right, you tried to
exactly there's our point. There's our point. Didn't work out, right,
Like they'll they'll pick some They'll find somebody else to
pick on. Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Our last celebrity couple we need to discuss are and
I don't even know if you know who they are, but.
Speaker 4 (33:25):
It's Jax Taylor and Britney cart right.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Which is the question that so many of our listeners
have is if you are once a cheater.
Speaker 4 (33:33):
Are you always a cheater? Yes?
Speaker 3 (33:36):
Yes, sorry sorry doctor No.
Speaker 5 (33:41):
I love that you answered yes. And I do know
them a little bit because I watch all the crazy
people on YouTube that talk about all the reality shows
because I'm a reality junkie, so this is so much
fun for me. It's my guilty pleasure. So yes, I
have heard about them, and I do think unless you
like listen, here's the thing. Unless someone makes an intentional
(34:04):
decision to change their patterns of behavior you're not going
to change, right.
Speaker 3 (34:09):
And you cannot control them, no, not even for a second.
Speaker 6 (34:13):
Cannot and there's no point in even trying, because that
is the That is the one thing I wish women
understood is that. And I mean, and when you look
at other women going through things, it's like you cannot
control your partner.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
No, And something that he said, like I knew before
we got married and then blah blah blah. I'm like, well,
but then you've married her and then you had kids
with her, like you made this decision repeatedly.
Speaker 5 (34:41):
Yeah. Yeah, Well there's a lot of children running around
in adult bodies.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
This is true. Yeah, I'm one of them.
Speaker 4 (34:50):
Yeah. Same.
Speaker 5 (34:51):
I think I just stopped being one of fifty seven,
So I get it. I get it.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
Yeah, I'll tell you what.
Speaker 6 (34:57):
And entering the dating pool or being seen right, So
after I've been married all of my adult life, my
first husband and now you know, my second husband, and
just getting to a place where I feel like I
can start to go out or be social or maybe
even date someone, which I don't even know how to do,
which is fine, but it's interesting because I feel like
(35:19):
such a toddler, like I am a child running around
in a body. This looks like a teenage dream, meaning
it exploded with clothes like this looks like a little
girl's house over here. But that's really where I'm at.
Like I'm just trying to put it together.
Speaker 5 (35:37):
And that's okay, because you know what the best part
is to know where you are. I know thyself and
that's okay. And by the way, we're all we'reever better
or worse. We're all just suffering human beings, and that's okay,
like the same. I think once we once people realize
that it makes life a lot easier.
Speaker 6 (35:57):
I have so enjoyed this conversation too.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
I'm like, and anyways, when you become my full time
therapist now that you've been on the poden.
Speaker 8 (36:05):
Guys know I love housewives, so I'm so happy to
be here and happy to support and shop me back
whenever you want.
Speaker 6 (36:16):
All right, thanks having because I know that so many
people would benefit from your expertise.
Speaker 3 (36:21):
Thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 5 (36:22):
Thank you, please stay safe okay by sending so much
love to La.
Speaker 4 (36:27):
Thank you all right, bye bye bye
Hi, guys, Welcome to another episode of Diamonds in the
Rough with Me and Erica, and we are bringing on
Doctor Nadine aka Doctor Nay.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
She is known to her patients as Doctor Nay. She
is the real life inspiration behind Naomi Belford's character in
The Wolf of Wall Street. I mean, I think we
all watched that movie with Margot Robbie and Leonardo DiCaprio,
but it wasn't just a movie, it was actually really
She survived a turbulent eight year marriage to Jordan Belfort,
(00:46):
marked by abuse, greed, and trauma. Following her experiences, Doctor Macuso,
which is Doctor Nadine, relocated to California. Her journey of
trauma and healing inspired her to return to school at
the age of thirty nine, where she earned her Masters
in Counseling and a PhD and somatic psychotherapy. She further
specialized with a two year postdoctoral training in the neuro
(01:09):
effective relational model. She also has a book Run Like Hell,
A Therapist Guide to Recognizing, Escaping, and Healing from Trauma bonds.
At age twenty two, she married Jordan the Nefario stockbroker
portrayed in the Hollywood blockbuster the Wolf of Wall Street.
The marriage began as a fairy tale, but once they
were bonded, Jordan's mask began to slip, and acts of infidelity,
(01:32):
narcissistic abuse, and insatiable greed and uncontrollable drug addiction became
Nadine's nightmare. She's here, so I feel like she could
give us more information than I can read off of
her bio.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
So let's talk.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Let's talk. Hey guys, Hi, how are you?
Speaker 5 (01:54):
Oh good, how are you doing?
Speaker 2 (01:57):
We're doing okay, but we would love to hear just
a little bit of like your backstory, and then we'll
start asking questions and doing that kind of stuff, if
that works for.
Speaker 5 (02:06):
You, sures sure. So, well, you know who I was
married to?
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Yeah, yeah, and hold on.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
He's a motivational speaker now, correct.
Speaker 5 (02:19):
Isn't that amazing? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (02:22):
He is.
Speaker 5 (02:23):
And so you know, I met him when I was
twenty two. I was so young and clueless, and this
was thirty years ago before and we was talking about
narcissism or trauma bonds or anything like that, right, And
so then I left him about eight years later and
restarted my life in la. I've lived in Manhattan Beach
for twenty four years. So my heart is broken for
(02:44):
Los Angeles right now. And I went back to school
at thirty nine, got my master's, got my doctorate. And
what was happening in my practice was I saw all
these smart, kind, beautiful women coming in being betrayed, having
financial abuse, being lied to, being coercively controlled. And I
(03:06):
was like, we have a problem. And I went back
to the research and wrote my book and now it's
my specialty.
Speaker 6 (03:14):
For any of us that's our listening, Could you explain
what a trauma bond is? Yeah, I think people look,
I think they have an idea, but from an experts you.
Speaker 5 (03:24):
Know, yeah, sure, sure, So a trauma bond is a toxic,
dysfunctional relationship between two emotionally attached people. There are a
few things that make it different. One of the things
is that the pathological person or perpetrator wants power and
control over their partner. That is their main mission while
(03:46):
they are so much whatever they call in love with
this person. Right, But it has to have two conditions
for it to be a trauma bond. There has to
be a powering balance. One person folds the power and
they exploit the power. Right, they can have it because
they have more resources.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
See financial power. It could be anything. You think that these.
Speaker 6 (04:08):
Personalities know what they are doing or are they just themselves?
Speaker 5 (04:13):
I think it's both. They are just themselves. They have
personality disorders, so they think this is just who I am,
But they totally know what they're doing because they will harm, lie, exploit,
and betray anyone in everyone to get their needs met
for money, power, pleasure, and status. Right, and the second
piece of the trauma bond is the intermit and reinforcement,
(04:35):
where seventy percent of the time they're cruel, they're controlling,
they're betraying, their abusive, but that thirty percent they're kind,
generous and helpful.
Speaker 6 (04:46):
And almost I'm almost like overly kind overly.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Yeah, overly complimentary, like I'm sure.
Speaker 6 (04:54):
That you got all the presence and all the trips
and all the shit right right right comfort and made
you feel loved and made you feel like it's not
that bad. Okay, he doesn't talk to me for two weeks,
but I can stick it out right right because.
Speaker 5 (05:10):
I would get into a fight and then there would
be a horse in my driveway right as about So
there were these very so what happens is the extremity
of these two behaviors that they exhibit toward us is
actually what creates the bonds, because the research shows animal
trainers who use intermate reinforcement the animals bond to them
(05:32):
two hundred and thirty percent more than just straight kindness.
Speaker 6 (05:36):
Wow, are these personalities born or are they made?
Speaker 4 (05:40):
I was going to ask, is this learned or is
this learned?
Speaker 5 (05:44):
It's learned. It's usually learned behavior, or they grow up
too entitled, or they're overly abused.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Even though we think that narcissists have these big egos,
they're actually the most insecure.
Speaker 5 (05:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:59):
Is that accurate?
Speaker 5 (06:00):
Yeah, that can be accurate. And you know, I use
the term pathological lover because I think they're much more
than narcissists. They usually have some psychopathy, right, That's why
sometimes they're criminals. They have sadism, and then they have machiavellianism,
which means they're highly strategic and manipulative as Erica. You know,
(06:23):
I'm not telling you, you don't know, I'm just maybe
giving you names for it, you know.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
Just confirming everything that I've experienced.
Speaker 5 (06:31):
I know, unfortunately they live through.
Speaker 6 (06:34):
Yeah, it's okay, I mean, you know, it's also interesting
to speak to someone who's also basically been through the
same thing, and it's nice that it really says a
lot to your character that you took this experience and really,
you know, went to school and are helping other women.
(06:56):
But it's it's hard when you're living with someone like
this because they're not all bad, but they're great, and
it's they're sort of mercurial in the way that they are,
and they there and I'm sure your ex husband too,
was very bright, and that's very bright, and that's how
they pull the shit off, because if you're a ding dong,
(07:17):
you cannot piculate all of these systems and all of
these people to your advantage.
Speaker 5 (07:23):
That's right, that's right. And you know they're you know,
they're true con artists, right because they wear the mask
and I call the two masks Romeo and Dirty John
or Doctor Jekyl and mister Hyde. But they can wear
that mask and have this amazing public image and trick everybody,
but then behind the scenes, you know, be very manipulative
(07:44):
and cruel to us, which can make it even more
confusing because now we are like gaslighting ourselves like it's
not that bad.
Speaker 6 (07:54):
It's not that bad. I can stick out. It's really okay,
what's wrong with me? I should be grateful. This is
better than it could be. You know, it could always
be worse. Dah da da da. I think that we
as women, or especially women are are a lot more
susceptible to this entire thing. And I don't know about
your ex husband, Jordan, but Tom had some of the
(08:16):
best social skills I've ever seen in my entire life.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Oh yeah, most of the time, there's always an extreme
talent involved with this.
Speaker 5 (08:26):
Correct correct? Correct? You know my ex is a grandiose narcissist, right,
he is the best seller in the world. I mean,
who does what he did and write a book and
then get the best people in the world to make
the book.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
Now, he's a motivational speaker.
Speaker 5 (08:41):
Yea motivational speaker. So yeah, And that's why I wrote
my book because I really wanted to take the stigma
away from the victim, because we're constantly asking like, didn't
she know? Why did she stay? Instead of asking no,
why does he do that?
Speaker 2 (08:56):
I also want to know, like what it is, because
you know, I have a history in my life of
meeting people and thinking that.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
I don't know maybe.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
It's that I'm not enough and that I can make
them better and that I'm going to create this new life,
and then that gives me this whole that I'm feeling
in my heart or whatever it may be. Yes, yes,
what is it that creates us to do that?
Speaker 5 (09:27):
Do we all have deficits? And do we all have
some form of developmental trauma? And do we all have
things that we need to fix about ourselves? Of course,
but that's different than pathology.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
Pathology.
Speaker 6 (09:40):
For anybody that's listening that may may not know, could
you explain pathology?
Speaker 5 (09:44):
Pathology is someone who's mentally on well because they will
use harm and exploit anybody and everybody. You know, we
I went into my relationship with the intention to love
and connect. That didn't mean I didn't have my imperfections,
but it's the motive behind the behavior. I didn't go
in to use exploit, betraying control.
Speaker 6 (10:16):
I'm going to ask you a question you and this
is just I'm asking from a personal point. So okay,
looking back, yes, were you ever confused at what you
were looking at or what you were experiencing? Even post
even looking back now, like, was I really did I
(10:37):
miss something?
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Did I experience that why what is not clicking? What
was true? Really like what was true about my life?
Speaker 5 (10:45):
Yes, that is very common, And there's a symptom that's
only for from a trauma band usually like cognitive dissionpines.
It's called which is the mental confusion that you feel
because you're constantly battling is a good? Is he bad? Am? I?
Is he crazy? Is a relationship? Good? Is a relationship AAD?
And so you have three different layers of cognitive dissonance
(11:07):
about you, him and the relationship that keep you totally
confused jury And it's one hundred percent symptom after trauma
badd Yes, it's a part. Yeah, so you have cognitive dissonance,
loss of self, and complex post traumatic stress disorder afterwards.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
And do you find that it makes people like I
feel like in general, ever since I've been a child,
I've had a very hard time being present, Okay, conversation,
Like if I'm with my kids, that's one thing, but
kind of any other situation, it's like my guard is
always like I'm here always, You're.
Speaker 5 (11:47):
Like you're always being like being feeling hypervigilant.
Speaker 4 (11:50):
And yes, and so is that a sign of that?
Speaker 2 (11:53):
And then like, I guess that's one question, and then
the next question is like, as we're all moving to new.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
Chapters of our life, like what is the difference? There's
trauma bonded.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
And then a word that we hear a lot in
twenty twenty four, twenty twenty five is love bombing. I
don't fully under Yeah, what exactly is that?
Speaker 5 (12:13):
So love bombing is a manipulation tactic, right, So it's
working for somebody to buy flowers and take you to
a nice center. But love bombing is intense, and it's
like constant admiration and adoration and constant texting and where
are you? And we're soulmates after two weeks? Right, And
I have a saying if it feels too good to
be true? And probably.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
Yeah, yeah, I think that. You know, it's interesting.
Speaker 6 (12:40):
I remember when like Tom and I were married, he'd
called me forty times a day.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
There I go normal and when you try for me, right.
Speaker 5 (12:49):
But it's not normal, it's not healthy.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
No.
Speaker 6 (12:52):
But in the when I tell people this, they're like,
that's impossible. I was like, No, that was how I lived,
you know.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
I lived like that.
Speaker 6 (12:58):
For over twenty year, where I could get the most
charming most loving human being, and then there would be
this slight, you know, flick of the eye, and it'd
be completely different, or I mean, or to wash him
twist in front of someone else, like I've seen so
many things. But then and I don't know how you felt,
(13:20):
but I saw him do really generous things for people.
And I'm thinking, okay, let's talk about my Gabellianism or
you know, my abilia.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
What you know?
Speaker 6 (13:32):
What is true? What was true? What was this person's
true true personality? Was any of it real? Why was
I susceptible to that? Why did I buy into all
of that? And why did I defend that? And it's
a very difficult place to be, as you know, And
when you've never dealt with a personality like this, it
(13:52):
almost seems impossible.
Speaker 5 (13:54):
Yeah, And here's the thing, right, is that if you
are a trusting person, we just assume everybody's like us.
We can't even imagine that somebody like this exists until
we experience it. And again, it's those extreme kind, generous
mixed with the extreme crazy, controlling, brutal behaviors that cause
(14:16):
cognitive dissonance, and it keeps you tracked. It's the glue
cognitive dissonance is the glue, and when you see them nice,
you get hopeful. What wait, though, that is really who
they are, and then that's the book.
Speaker 6 (14:30):
It almost even becomes more sweet when you see them like,
It becomes sweeter and they're nicer, and they're far more
loving and generous. And it's the unpredictable element of these
personalities is really what drives or at least drove me
to be like, what the heck am I dealing with? Right?
Speaker 5 (14:50):
Because it's not a psychle because if it was psycho
we could predict it. You never know when the behavior's coming.
Speaker 4 (14:57):
So that's narcissists actually love you.
Speaker 5 (15:01):
Well, you know, narcissism runs on a spectrum, right, So
I think there are some people that have severe rigid
personality disporters, and they're not going to change, and they're
not capable of love the way you and I think
about it, because they can't have empathy, they can't have compassion,
(15:22):
and love has two qualities, quality of connection and giving
someone the space to be who they are, and a
lot of times they can't do that, so often they're
not capable of loving us the way we need to
be loved.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
I think that they're own version of love.
Speaker 6 (15:38):
Like I think that they feel to a point, but
ultimately they're going to put themselves or their business or
their personal persona on their public persona.
Speaker 5 (15:46):
First, right, And yeah, and we're not objects, right, We're like,
we're really more like objects to them. And again they
will use home, exploit and betray us to get their
needs met for money, power, pleasure, and status. And I
just don't think that's love.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Is there a checklist or something equivalent to like the
signs for somebody to look out for?
Speaker 5 (16:11):
Yes, in my book, I have a pathological lover checklist
and I have it on my website And here we go.
If you meet a guy and they're like, my eggs
is crazy, probably a reason why probably made her crazy?
Right away, starts to catch them in lies, right, starts
to be a little disrespectful, belittling you, blames you for everything,
(16:36):
words not matching actions, lacks of more skills or compassion. Right,
So I have sexual promiscuity, extreme substance abuse. Right, So
they all don't have every single thing, but all my
pathological lover checklists, I've forgot how many items there are.
If they score over certain amounts, run like cow don't wait,
(16:59):
because the longer you stay, the more you want to
invest into the relationship. Then you're like, oh god, I
got to stay. I invested.
Speaker 6 (17:08):
I want to ask you. We're talking mostly about men,
but this is also true in women. Yeah, yes, so
men or you know, anyone that any.
Speaker 5 (17:20):
Any sexual orientation, like any you know, any configuration of
our relationship. It can happen between Boston employee. It can
happen between friends, you know, it can happen in different
types of relationships, especially when there's a hierarchical difference right power.
Speaker 6 (17:38):
And balance, whether it be financial or you know, professional,
that's usually the opportunity for these personalities to come in
and get you.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
I mean, not get you, but yeah.
Speaker 7 (17:48):
Yeah, yeah, you become pray for them and and a
lot of times they gain power, Like my ex did
because he was so threatening and dominating and intimidating.
Speaker 5 (18:00):
I fear him, so did I. Oh, I had severe fear. Yeah.
Speaker 6 (18:06):
And when I tell people that, they just kind of
look at me like he was an older man, and
I was like, yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
They're so even. So I have a question.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Do you think that somebody that is potentially raised by
a narcissist is more prone to then want to be
married to one.
Speaker 5 (18:27):
You can be more prone because you had, you know,
a lacking for a father that wasn't there, or you
grew up with some developmental trauma. But in my book,
and this is what the research shows, there's a great
book called Women Who Love Psychopaths where I got a
lot of my research from, and I know it's a
great title. And what the research showed is that women
(18:50):
that score very high in certain personality traits and again
anybody could take it on my website, such as agreeableness
or conscientiousness means they're loyal, intolerance and pro social, or
very determined and disciplined, they are actually perfect prey for
these men. And I score very high in both because
(19:12):
those qualities that are good. But women comes to me
and she's like, I'm organized and I'm loving. I'm not
going to say, oh, we're going to therapize that out
of you. They get weaponized by this personality. They take
advantage of it. So it's not just that dysfunctional women.
You know, of course, yes there is there a reenactment
(19:35):
of relational trauma. Yes, but anyone in everyone in full
prey to these people.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
How long did it take you to recover? Oh? How
about this? Or have you?
Speaker 4 (19:50):
And did you find another person like him right after?
Speaker 5 (19:53):
That's what I know. I dated a lot, I had
a lot of fun, and then I'm married for twenty
three years with my husband twenty five years. It took me,
I would say, a few years, and I've been in
a lot of therapy.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
And what was the final straw?
Speaker 5 (20:11):
Oh for me, Well, he kicked me down the stairs
when I told him I wanted him to get sober,
and so that was beyond scary. And the second straw
was when I told him how when he did get sober,
how hard it all was. He was like, it wasn't
that bad. And that lack of remorse put me over
(20:32):
the edge. And then once he got arrested and got
an ankle wrestlet, I knew I was safe because he
had lost all his power. The power and balance shifted. Yeah,
it's like bye bye. So I had three last straws.
Speaker 4 (20:45):
Yeah, and you guys co parent, right, you have kids?
Speaker 3 (20:48):
Yes? We do?
Speaker 5 (20:48):
We do? We do?
Speaker 2 (20:50):
And how does that work?
Speaker 5 (20:51):
It works great? Because the power and balance shifted, So
I kind of got lucky. I always say that he
got arrested in a strange way. But my kids are great.
My daughter's a therapist, my son's a businessman. Like they're
doing great.
Speaker 6 (21:08):
I'm happy to hear that. I'm happy to hear that,
you you know, are stay happy. Children are wonderful. We
came out the other side. But you know, we did
a lot of work.
Speaker 5 (21:19):
We processed.
Speaker 6 (21:20):
We didn't pretend, you know, having to go through something
like this which is super public, and having people weigh
in not really understanding, uh, you know, where I was
coming from or what I was experiencing.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
And everything sort of filling in the blanks.
Speaker 6 (21:38):
It's very difficult because it oftentimes takes a toll on
what am I really going through?
Speaker 3 (21:44):
What am I seeing? Like how how do I.
Speaker 6 (21:46):
Sift through this this entire blur of a life and
really get down to how do I heal and how
do I pull myself together?
Speaker 3 (21:55):
Because that was the ultimate goal, Like I can roll them.
Speaker 5 (21:58):
Okay, you could have control Tom. Oh my god, I
just got in control. I mean please, I was.
Speaker 6 (22:05):
As good as Jordan, okay, right, Like you weren't controlling
Tom and you were not responsible for his behavior. No,
and I and I and I know that, but knowing
that and feeling that are two completely different things.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
Yeah, like and feeling that from the.
Speaker 6 (22:22):
Inside out and saying, you know what, Erica, these things
happened to you. There was some beautiful experiences, there were
some bad experiences, but ultimately that's over and he's gone
and you know whatever. But now I have to pull
myself together and move forward. And that, I think is
like it's the sweetest thing, but it's also the hardest
(22:44):
thing because you're totally it's almost like a you have
to look back and say what was true about that
life and who and what is this?
Speaker 3 (22:53):
It can be very heavy.
Speaker 5 (22:55):
Well, it is very heavy. It is very heavy. I
mean that's the whole last section my book all about
healing because the research shows though victims of this sort
of abuse, seventy five percent of them go on to
experience post traumatic growth if they do the work. So
you're going to be in that group. You're going to
experience post traumatic growth because you're putting in the work
(23:18):
and it is possible, but yeah, it takes a lot
of work.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
But I also have another question, like there's.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Like we went to like, you know, this whole couple's
therapy thing, and it announced me as an introvert, and
like it was shocking information for everybody, even though I've
been saying this my entire life. I'm like, no, Like,
if I'm being paid to show up and do it,
I can do it. But like I'm naturally an introvert,
(23:47):
so I enjoy my alone time. I need to like
recharge all of these things. But there's moments that I'm
feeling now where I feel really low and I don't
know if those loneliness feelings mean that I've made a
(24:09):
mistake or like this is just something I have to
get used to and this is like the new change
in my life and oh my god, I'm so embarrassing
and getting emotional.
Speaker 5 (24:18):
But like.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
That is such a confusing part of all of this,
Like are you supposed to power through or like are
you supposed to give it? Like I don't know, Oh no, No.
Speaker 5 (24:32):
I think loneliness is that I was very very lonely,
painfully lonely, and I had my kids, you know, and
I was like, why am I so lonely? Same exact
way you're feeling, Yeah, And I found that I think
that's a very normal process of it. I think that
we are built for connection. We're social beings and I
(24:53):
what really really helped me was journaling. That's what helped
me deal with that loneliness. And I think it's a
very normal process of it. And I don't I don't
know your situation well enough, but I don't think it
means that you need to go back. I think it's
something that you're going to learn to develop a deeper
relationship with yourself. Yeah, and you will. But it's very common.
(25:18):
And I'm sorry going through that. I have a lot
of empathy for you.
Speaker 6 (25:21):
Thank you the thick of it right now, you know,
and it's very fresh and very hard, and I feel
for her because none of this is easy and to
pick yourself up and like even be on a podcast
today and talk about it. You know, Teddy, you need
to cut yourself a break. If you didn't say you
felt lonely, I would be worried that you were.
Speaker 5 (25:42):
Like Yeah, and Teddy, I remember the loneliness being like gainful.
I remember like an ink.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
And it's a constant ache that I'm trying to like
fake my way through.
Speaker 5 (26:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
But then it's like and I have talked about this
in therapy. Then it's almost like I'm attracted to like
another chaotic situation.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
You know.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
I don't want to give too much away about my
parents or anything like that, but like, clearly my dad
was a rock star. He met some girl he met
at the Rainbow Room and it was my mom, and
they had babies and he was married already.
Speaker 4 (26:27):
Like everything was a shit show.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
So like clearly there's been a lot of ups and
downs in my life, and I my only goal has
ever been like I just want to give like my
kid's stability. Yeah, And I don't know, I guess I
just I don't know if it's loneliness or I feel scared.
I also don't feel like maybe I'm enough, you know,
(26:51):
like all those things.
Speaker 5 (26:52):
Yeah, I mean, what's your listen, let's think about it.
So there's loneliness, which is really fear and insecurity, right,
But then there is is you know, like reflection, like
trying to figure it all out. And then there's a
degrief right for the life that you're not going to
have anymore. And they're all normal feelings, you know, And
(27:14):
that's why sometimes when you leave this very chaotic experience,
it's good just to hunger down, be with you and
your kids, you know, do what you're doing. But I
implore you not to judge your feelings. They're all okay.
(27:34):
It's like we get so hard on ourselves and they're
shame too. Write you mentioned, yeah, so much shame. So
there's so much shame. And shame is the worst to
deal with because it means like I'm broken, I don't matter,
I can't be fixed. But that's not true. You've just
gone through a relational trauma. I implore you don't judge yourself.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
That he's always been hard on herself.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
Well, the world has always been hard on me.
Speaker 5 (28:00):
Nom we got to fire. You're in a critic don't
internally you know it's so hard. You guys are in
the spotlight. I don't even know how you do it, honestly,
But I don't internalize. Everybody else projects all over you, guys.
That's all it is is projection.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
If you're in a varian retirement and like you're looking
to like expand your life in a relationship, like, how
do you find yourself in a place where you don't
put yourself exactly where you were before?
Speaker 3 (28:28):
Right?
Speaker 5 (28:29):
So that's why I say, go to therapy. Take your
personality trait tests. You have to know your attachment pattern.
You have to know your personality traits. You have to
understand your developmental trauma. You have to understand yourself before
you can really choose effectively. And I have two sayings
about that, if somebody can hear you, they can love you.
(28:50):
And my husband, my current husband, I'll never forget the
first one. We had an argument and I was and
he goes, yeah, I can see that. I was like,
what you can see that you can hear me? And
it's also when you do enough work on yourself, and
the work is never ending. I'm fifty seven and I
still work on myself. You learn to trust yourself, and
(29:14):
you will.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
I believe that.
Speaker 6 (29:16):
I believe that trusting yourself is the true is the
true win in all of this is like being able
to say, you know what, Erica, no, that is not right,
and being sure, like just knowing it from your gut,
like this is not right, that is not okay, or
this is right.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
You know, this feels good.
Speaker 5 (29:38):
That's right? And what's the body? Don't trust the mind
because that's where that you go in all the distortions,
but the body doesn't lie, like you say, when that
gut goes this is right, then you go don't ignore
the uh oh, like I did when my ex asked
me to get engaged and I said, yes, I grabbed
the five carrot diamond. But my gut said, uh oh,
So don't don't the guy.
Speaker 6 (30:01):
It's easy to be distracted by sparkley things.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
So while we're on the topic of some of these relationships,
let's talk about some of the high profile relationships that
have kind of come to an end this year. We've
got Jessica Albat and Cash Warren. They're divorcing after sixteen
years of marriage. She said they didn't always treat each
other the best before they split, and they had become roommates.
Speaker 4 (30:41):
Do you think that's common, especially after having kids or.
Speaker 5 (30:46):
Yeah, that can happen for sure, right that, you know,
to keep your sex life alive, it takes intention. And
if you don't feel emotionally connected, especially women, they're not
turned on, right, So I know exactly what's happening with
their relationship. But I think that that can happen very.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
Readily, Sophie, if you're not actively working on pursuing the
intimacy of your relationship, even if somebody is not a narcissist,
even if there's not these issues like you're going to
have distance.
Speaker 5 (31:22):
You're going to have it ends. Also the emotional intimacy.
You know what's sexy is constantly revealing yourself and getting
vulnerable with more and letting them know you. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
Then we've got Sophie Turner and Joe Jonas have been
an extremely public custody battle. People believe Joe was weaponizing
the press against his ex wife. We know now publicly
that Joe Jonas, Brad Pitt, and some others they've all
used the same pr company, which is I think quite
(32:00):
common in Los Angeles.
Speaker 5 (32:03):
Yeah, I'm not surprised essentially that.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
The question is when you see an ex start weaponizing
their partner as a bad parent or this or that campaign.
Speaker 5 (32:15):
Oh yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 4 (32:18):
So what's like the appropriate response when that happens? From silence?
Speaker 5 (32:23):
I didn't say silence. Yeah I would. I would not
give it airtime because you know your truth, you know
the type of person you are, and it'll die down.
They'll be in your headsline as we know tomorrow, and
I would not waste my breath on that. Like when
the movie came.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
Out, I'm like, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 5 (32:49):
I said nothing, you know what, because I had nothing
to say, Now I use the movie and I exploit
it to help women everywhere.
Speaker 4 (32:56):
That she is the exploit.
Speaker 5 (32:58):
But but I wasn't going to have Ben myself because
I know who I am.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
Yeah, yeah, I tried that. It didn't work out.
Speaker 5 (33:07):
Yours was so different, you know, right, you tried to
exactly there's our point. There's our point. Didn't work out, right,
Like they'll they'll pick some They'll find somebody else to
pick on. Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
Our last celebrity couple we need to discuss are and
I don't even know if you know who they are, but.
Speaker 4 (33:25):
It's Jax Taylor and Britney cart right.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Which is the question that so many of our listeners
have is if you are once a cheater.
Speaker 4 (33:33):
Are you always a cheater? Yes?
Speaker 3 (33:36):
Yes, sorry sorry doctor No.
Speaker 5 (33:41):
I love that you answered yes. And I do know
them a little bit because I watch all the crazy
people on YouTube that talk about all the reality shows
because I'm a reality junkie, so this is so much
fun for me. It's my guilty pleasure. So yes, I
have heard about them, and I do think unless you
like listen, here's the thing. Unless someone makes an intentional
(34:04):
decision to change their patterns of behavior you're not going
to change, right.
Speaker 3 (34:09):
And you cannot control them, no, not even for a second.
Speaker 6 (34:13):
Cannot and there's no point in even trying, because that
is the That is the one thing I wish women
understood is that. And I mean, and when you look
at other women going through things, it's like you cannot
control your partner.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
No, And something that he said, like I knew before
we got married and then blah blah blah. I'm like, well,
but then you've married her and then you had kids
with her, like you made this decision repeatedly.
Speaker 5 (34:41):
Yeah. Yeah, Well there's a lot of children running around
in adult bodies.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
This is true. Yeah, I'm one of them.
Speaker 4 (34:50):
Yeah. Same.
Speaker 5 (34:51):
I think I just stopped being one of fifty seven,
So I get it. I get it.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
Yeah, I'll tell you what.
Speaker 6 (34:57):
And entering the dating pool or being seen right, So
after I've been married all of my adult life, my
first husband and now you know, my second husband, and
just getting to a place where I feel like I
can start to go out or be social or maybe
even date someone, which I don't even know how to do,
which is fine, but it's interesting because I feel like
(35:19):
such a toddler, like I am a child running around
in a body. This looks like a teenage dream, meaning
it exploded with clothes like this looks like a little
girl's house over here. But that's really where I'm at.
Like I'm just trying to put it together.
Speaker 5 (35:37):
And that's okay, because you know what the best part
is to know where you are. I know thyself and
that's okay. And by the way, we're all we'reever better
or worse. We're all just suffering human beings, and that's okay,
like the same. I think once we once people realize
that it makes life a lot easier.
Speaker 6 (35:57):
I have so enjoyed this conversation too.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
I'm like, and anyways, when you become my full time
therapist now that you've been on the poden.
Speaker 8 (36:05):
Guys know I love housewives, so I'm so happy to
be here and happy to support and shop me back
whenever you want.
Speaker 6 (36:16):
All right, thanks having because I know that so many
people would benefit from your expertise.
Speaker 3 (36:21):
Thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 5 (36:22):
Thank you, please stay safe okay by sending so much
love to La.
Speaker 4 (36:27):
Thank you all right, bye bye bye
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Teddi Mellencamp
Tamra Judge
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