October 27, 2025 • 43 mins
On June 5, 1968, the day after winning the California Democratic primary for President, Robert F. Kennedy was shot and killed by a man named Sirhan Sirhan at the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles. The 2006 film Bobby, written and directed by Emilio Estevez, tells the interconnected stories of a group of fictional characters staying at the Ambassador Hotel the day Bobby was shot. The star-studded ensemble cast includes everyone from Anthony Hopkins and Demi Moore to Lindsay Lohan and Nick Cannon. We’re joined by comedian, Crooked Media writer, and Bobby Kennedy aficionado Julia Claire to discuss the highs and lows of one of the most confounding wannabe Oscar movies of the aughts.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
I'm George Severs, and this is United States of Kennedy,
a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty.
Every week we go into one aspect of the Kennedy story,
and today we are talking about the two thousand and
six film Bobby, written and directed by Emilio Estevez and
featuring a star studded ensemble cast, including everyone from Anthony
(00:30):
Hopkins and Sharon Stone to Lindsay Lohan and Nick Cannon.
So On June fifth, nineteen sixty eight, the day after
winning the California Democratic primary for President, Robert F. Kennedy
was shot and killed by a man named Sihan Sirhan
at the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles. It was one
of the four major political assassinations in the US in
the nineteen sixties, along with those of President John F. Kennedy,
(00:54):
Malcolm X, and Martin Luther King Junior, the last of
which happened only two months earlier. The two thousand and
six film tells the interconnected stories of a group of
fictional characters staying at the Ambassador Hotel the day Bobby
was shot. Their stories are meant to reflect the social
and political issues of the time such as racism, the
civil rights movement, the Vietnam War, the popularity of psychedelic drugs,
(01:17):
and changing attitudes around feminism and women's rights. Now that
all sounds good, but unfortunately it is a classic ensemble
movie that doesn't quite add up to more than the
sum of its parts. It was neither a critical nor
a commercial hit, although it was nominated for both a
SAG Award and a Critics Choice Award for Best Ensemble Cast.
So I wanted to discuss the ups and downs of
(01:37):
this movie with someone who truly has a well of
Kennedy knowledge, my good friend Julia Clair. Julia is a
brilliant comedian and currently a writer of all kinds at
Crooked Media. She's also one of the biggest history abuffs
I know. So I can't wait. Julia. Hello, Hi, Thank
you so much for being here to chat about the
incredible two thousand and six film Bobby. This is one
(02:01):
of those movies that is a classic, this had Oscar
Buzz movie. There's a podcast called This had Oscar Buzz
where every week they talk about a movie that was
clearly designed to get awards recognition and then it somehow
never did.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
There has never been a movie that fits that description
more than this.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
It almost feels like famous Oscar nominated actors were walking
by the set and the director was like, do you
want to just come in for one scene? We'll write
you can come in, Come on, we can improv. It'll
be great. So before we get into the movie, I
do want to talk a little bit about your relationship
with the Kennedy's writ large because, of course, when I
(02:39):
texted you last night asking how you enjoyed the movie,
you said to me, I cracked open my Bobby Kennedy
biography for the first time in years, meaning that this
is something you own and consult like one would the
Bible every few years.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Sure, sure, as one does. Yeah, it's Bobby Kennedy by
Larry Tye, longtime Boston Globe reporter. I read the book
ten years ago. You know, I'm from Massachusetts. I think
that even more so than just being an American, I
think there's a Massachusetts specific fascination with the Kennedys that's
not entirely healthy. My grandparents actually hated the Kennedys. Unsurprisingly,
(03:16):
my Boston copp grandfather was not a huge JFK.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Fan.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
I think it was a class thing too. There were
some people for whom the Kennedys were aspirational if they were,
you know, lower middle class or poor, and my grandparents
it was not like that. They just saw them as
spoiled entitled.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Yeah, I think, well, okay, you're from Massachusetts, you're Catholic,
you were a history major, correct, that's right, and I
think like American history, right.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
No, actually it was your European history. But I love history,
the history.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Yeah, So it's a natural fit that you would gravitate
towards the Kennedys, right, and why Bobby in particular.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Bobby is just like more interesting to me than JFK
by long shot. I know you guys have done two
episodes on chap equittic. I'm also much more interested in
Teddy than I am in Jack, But Bobby is. He
was just much more emotional. He's just a fascinating character
to me. He was the least handsome, smallest runt of
(04:21):
the litter and had a notorious terrible temper, just a
little teapot waiting to blow.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Yeah, I completely agree that I find both Bobby and
ted more interesting. Basically, as we do research for each
of these episodes, my actual knowledge gets slightly less spotty
with each week, and I have a depth of knowledge
about one event, but then have no idea what happened
the year after that. And the thing with Ted is,
on the one hand, chap equittic on its own is
(04:48):
such a shocking story that already that hooks you in.
But then he also, just by virtue of living longer,
just had this very long career and you could actually
write a very robust biography of him because he was
in the government for decades. And then Bobby, he was
i think also just smarter than Jack. He was the
(05:09):
brains of the operation when he was in his attorney general.
Would you say that is accurate.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Or initially in their youth that is not how Larry
Tie categorized it. He said that he was not as
naturally smart as Jack, definitely not as naturally charismatic.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
You know what it is. It's like because he didn't
have that natural charisma. My mind goes to, oh, well,
he must have been book smart, and he must have
been the one that was behind the scenes operating everything
because he wasn't good on TV. But in fact that's
also not true because I'm now remembering we did this
whole episode about him taking on organized crime and taking
on Jimmy Hoffa, and in fact, he completely fucked that
(05:46):
up as well, after like years of trying to make
it his signature number one thing. But I think maybe
the propaganda of this movie partly worked on me, and
then I came out being like, wow, he really was
the last hope for America.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
I know, I know. And there's also a lot in
this about him being the last man standing in the
civil rights movement, which he went on the real journey
with that, Like he started his career, his legislative career
as an aid to Senator Joseph McCarthy, and also much
later Obviously we can all be excused for youthful indiscretions
(06:18):
of working with Senator Joseph McCarthy, but everyone forgets that
he personally authorized the FBI wiretapping of Martin Luther King.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Right, And this is a historical spotty memory that somehow
everyone on the center to center left seems to have
about all the Kennedys. Yeah, because people often when I
read things about JFK, people just completely uncritically will refer
to him as a champion for civil rights. That was
something that was very carefully pull tested how much he
(06:47):
can say and how much she can extend on olive
branch to people that were asking for civil rights while
not alienating Southern Democrats, and this and that, and this
movie literally has a line we're jumping ahead. This was
what a my ype, straight thoughts Nick Cannon. Spoiler alert,
Nick Cannon is in this movie. God. Nick Cannon literally says,
now that doctor King is gone, no one left but.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Bobby but Bob. That's right, that's crazy. And that's also
crazy because the other candidate in the primary, this was
after Johnson had dropped out, was Eugene McCarthy, who voted
for the Civil Rights Act of Voting Rights Act. He
actually was a champion for civil rights in a lot
of different ways. But the Nick Cannon of it all
will get to get that. But the one thing that
(07:31):
all these years later stuck in my mind from that
Bobby Kennedy biography was this scene where in nineteen sixty three,
Bobby invited a bunch of civil rights icons to his
house to talk about why black Americans were gravitating towards
more violent black nationalists like Malcolm X and the Nation
(07:54):
of Islam and all that, and Essentially, he was looking
for basically all of them to be like, Wow, you
guys are doing an amazing job. Because he didn't invite
anyone from the NAACP or the Urban League. He didn't
invite Martin Luther King obviously, just authorized just wiretap. So
he had James Baldwin put together a group of artists
and intellectuals and activists, and he was again looking for
(08:17):
them to tell him what a great job the Kennedy
administration was doing. And then there was this one activist
who had been beaten by cops so many times, and
he was just like, you haven't done enough. And that
became the tone of the meeting. And Harry Bellefonte, who
was in Bobby was in that meeting. Oh my god,
and Harry Bellefonte and Bobby were pretty friendly. And after
(08:41):
the meeting, Bobby was like, why didn't you stick up
for me?
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Wow?
Speaker 2 (08:46):
And he was like, I would lose all credibility in
this space if I had done that. But yeah, it
was like Lena Horne, Harry Belafonte, James Baldwin, and a
number of other politically active black celebrities and public figures
who just read him the Riot Act and he was
pissed at the time. He wanted to be celebrated for
(09:08):
being a civil rights champion.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Yeah, well he finally got it all those years later
in two thousand and six. As Bobby, I mean, the
hagiographic tone of the movie, it really cannot be aggresiated.
And I think you're saying Harry Belafonda was a friend
of his, and he's not the only one that has
a clear emotional connection to the Kennedys in the movie.
So Amelia Estevez, who directed the movie, who wrote it
(09:30):
and wrote it, Yes, thank you, and wrote it by himself.
By the way, sometimes when you have one of these
people that's like an actor that became a director, there's
a team of people who are helping. This literally just
s has written and directed by Emelia Estevez.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
And honey, honey, he should have had a team.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
And you know what it shows for anyone who doesn't
you know, any younger listeners. Amelia Estevez, first of all,
son of Martin Sheen, brother of Charlie Sheen, wasn't member
of the brat pack of actors in the eighties who
was in the Breakfast Club, which is a funniest sort
of connection. He asked to Demi Moore, who's also in
this movie, because she was part of that.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
General Yeah, they were in scene almost fire together.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Yeah. So anyway, Emilia Estevez has distinct memories of learning
about Bobby being assassinated on he was a kid, and
Martin she and his father was a huge Kennedy supporter.
So they're just going in with all this love for
the Kennedys, and a movie like this, it would be
very easy to add, just for the sake of pretending
you're being a little more objective, to just add one
(10:24):
storyline that's like slightly critical. But every single storyline, it's
like the arc of the universe bends towards Bobby Kennedy
being the perfect American.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
That's right, that's right. Even the Christian Slater character, he's
supposed to be the racist one, he ultimately comes out
being forever changed.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Changed, and by just the presence of Bobby, it's like
Bobby basically convinces him via his speech not to be
a racist. By the end of the movie, there is
a whole Joshua Jackson plays Bobby's campaign manager, and one
of his subplots is that he doesn't want this Czechoslovakian
journalist to interview Bobby, but then she convinces him that
(11:06):
he should be supportive of other perspectives, and then he says,
of course, you can come, and I'll make sure you
have a spot at the press conference or whatever. Anyway,
so this is a great time to get into the
nitty gritty of the movie. As we mentioned, this is
one of those movies that is just like a giant
ensemble cast. Everyone has ten lines tops and I don't
(11:27):
know if the structure is based on Robert Altman's Nashville,
but it is very similar, and that Robert Altman's Nashville
is also about this giant kind of cast of characters,
and it takes place over the span of I want
to say, a week, and it's leading up to this
big benefit concert for some outsider political candidate, and similarly
with Bobby, they it's set in the Ambassador Hotel the
(11:48):
day of the California primary, and it's all leading to
a victory speech that Bobby is going to make he
wins the California primary, and then of course is shot
and killed right after, and so it follows the lives
of various people staying in that hotel for various reasons,
and very heavy handedly, one could say, explores how their
(12:10):
individual lives intersect with larger political themes of the day.
So I just want to go through all the different
actors and characters very quickly. Anthony Hopkins is a retired
hotel dorman who just hangs around at the hotel because
he loved his job so much when he was a
dorman at the hotel. He's constantly talking to his random
friend played by Harry Belafonte. They're playing chess together, They're
(12:32):
talking about aging. It's two wise old men chatting. Lindsay
Lohan is marrying Elijah Wood with the hope that if
they get married, he will be deployed to Germany instead
of Vietnam, which is something that happened a lot at
that time. People would get married specifically for this purpose.
And also Emilio Esta has in fact met a woman
who had done that, and that is what inspired him
(12:54):
to write the movie. So he built the movie around
that character all right, very quickly. Demi Moore is an
alcoholic singer that is navigating her relationship like a very
cabaret style singer named Virginia Fallon.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
I want to say she does this insane rendition of Lulu.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Louis, which was in fact recorded and released in some
capacity according to Wikipedia, but there is a Demi Moore
cover of Louie Louis. Sharon Stone plays a beautician who
works at the hotel Salon. I would say her class
signifiers are very confusing, because on the one hand, she's
clearly coded as a working class nail technician. On the
(13:31):
other hand, she is married to the manager of the hotel,
who is William H. Macy, who is in this managerial position.
So we had William H. Macy. He's Sharon Stone's husband.
He's having an affair with Heather Graham, who is a
young hot switchboard operator. Christian Slater is a racist food
and beverage manager who is fired by William H. Macy
for being racist. Laurence Fishburn comes in for truly twenty seconds.
(13:55):
He is ano chef that makes a mean blueberry pie. Yes.
Freder Rodriguez one of the two Mexican American bus boys.
His entire storyline is that he has tickets to a
baseball game but can't go because he has to work
a double shift. Shilah buff is a Kennedy campaign volunteer
who buys acid from Get Ready for This Ashton Kutcher
(14:16):
and goes on an acid trip instead of going out
and volunteering for Bobby. Helen Hunt and Martin Sheen play
a married couple who are rich campaign donor. She's a
socialite figure. At one point, he makes fun of her
for purchasing a painting of a Campbell's can of soup,
which is that's right, a warhol. Joshua Jackson, his Bobby's
campaign manager. Nick Cannon, is a staffer who falls for
(14:39):
Joy Bryan, who is Heather Graham's coworker at the switchboard. Then,
of course we have the Czechoslovakian reporter who is determined
to get an interview with Kennedy. And then there's leftover.
David crumbholds Mary Elizabeth Winstead. When I went on letterbox
to look at the cast, I had to click more
just to get to Helen h Now Academy Award winner
Helen Hunt is after and more. Yeah, we're going to
(14:59):
take a sh or break, stay with us, and we're
back with United States of Kennedy.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
The reason why all this happened is because Anthony Hopkins
was the first person to sign on, so we can
blame Anthony Hopkins for this movie.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
I believe might have been the second and they got
the yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
He said that he signed on because Anthony Hopkins was
doing it. And Amelia asked of us, was having such
a hard time getting this movie made. He had written
it right before you guessed it September eleventh, and had
terrible writer's block, which I think is evidenced in their screenplay.
And he was having a really hard time getting this
movie made. He was selling a bunch of his own
(15:50):
stuff to get this movie made. And then Anthony Hopkins,
who has a lot of personal feelings about Bobby, was
the first person to sign on, and then that was
a domino effect. All these other huge name actors signed
on for basically no money.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
M M. Yeah. The story of it really reminds me
of stories you'll hear about a biopic about a forgotten
figure in history and it's someone's passion project and everyone
is just working at scale, except it's about Kennedy. It says,
though they were all passionate about making a film about
a forgotten civil rights activist whose name they wanted to
(16:26):
get out there, except it's about someone everyone knows about
generally respect He already has a generally good reputation in
the public American imagination. But it really seemed to be
a labor of love. I mean, I recently found out
that i'mdb trivia is in no way fact checked and
completely user generated. But one of the things in IMDb
trivia that I read that I was in the middle
(16:47):
of fact check again that we had to record is
that everyone worked as a show of support of the movie.
All these famous actors were at Scale. So you have
Sharon Stone and Demi Moore. Demi Moore, by the way,
famously at one point the most highly actress in America allegedly,
you know, worked for Scale to do this movie.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
I think she and Amelia were once an item. I
think there was. I think there were once engaged. I
think they met on the set of Say Normal's Fire.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Yeah, it's funny, you know, to Reverence a different podcast,
the podcast How Did This Get Made, which is about
movies that are bad. It's like, the answer to How
Did This Get Made is just it's good old fashioned
Hollywood hobnobbing and nepotism and just everyone knowing one another
and people doing favors for one another. And the fact
that all these big actors basically just had five lines.
I am sure that for Sharon Stone, it was one
(17:33):
day on set, like she's there, she's wearing the one
outfitures as a beautician. She has those clip on bangs on,
and she's.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
You know, I love those clip on bangs.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
I mean, okay, well, we will get into bigger issues,
but I do want to ask you, since we're talking
about all these actors, who for you was the MVP
of the movie.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
So I actually I wrote this down that there are
three actors in this movie who are so good that
it is basically like they're acting in a different movie.
And it's Antanie Hopkins, Laurence Smishburn and Sharon Stone, and
all three of them, I'm like, what movie are you in?
Because Anthony Hopkins is pouring so much of himself into
this he is so grounding, and then everything else in
(18:12):
this movie is so incredibly goofy, and even actors who
are normally great are not that good in this movie.
It's not their fault. The script is bad.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
And I just want to say, one such actor, and
it's not her fault at all, is Helen Hunt. The
things that Helen Hunt is given to say, I wrote
down the Helen Hunt's black shoe speech.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
That's I wrote it down to. I wrote it down
to Helen Hunt's monologue about how it's hard to be
a woman because of shoes.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
But the black sheman like there are so you know, again,
every character is completely a symbol representing the social issues
of the sixties. So for some people it's the relationship
to Vietnam and the Draft. For some people it's the
relationship to changing attitudes around women and feminism. For some
people it's about civil rights and racial unrest in America.
(19:01):
Every single person corresponds to some social issue, and so
Helen Hunt, who is a rich social aid it's interesting.
They could have made her storyline somehow about class or
inequality or something, but they really didn't. They want you
to fully be on her side when she gives this
monologue about how difficult it is to be a wealthy woman.
And this is my issue with it, because she can't
(19:22):
find shoes that match her black dress.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
She forgot to pack her black shoes to match her
black dress, and famously.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Black goes with Everything's so shocking, And that's where I
was like, Wow, a man wrote this I know.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
That monologue was so crazy and she was so emotional
duri it. Look, I have to say I'm a Helen
Hunt hater. I do not think she is a good actor,
and I think she also in this case, was given
pretty bad material to work with.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
There was also I think maybe the worst Maybe Nick
Cannon is the worst, worst in terms of material, just
in terms of rating, and I think Helen Hunt is
second worst.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Yeah, and there was something on the IMDb trivia that
we don't know if it's true, I guess, but that
she was given her script the day before and that
would make sense. Yes, that would make a lot of sense.
But she's really bad. Also, I had no idea what
the point of her and Charlie Sheen's little vignettes were.
(20:24):
And also I was like, it's so weird that Emilio
Estevez wrote this kind of horny part for his dad.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Yes, No, it's very strange, and I almost think that
he wanted his dad to be involved and he didn't
have something for him, so he created this on the
spot or something. So you're three mvv I agree, Anthony Hopkins,
Laurence Fishburne and Sharon Stone. I mean, to me, Sharon
Stone was the MVP. She is doing trashy, fake blonde
(20:53):
nail technicians, so well, it's a register she knows she
can do. She also so gets to actually have way
more subplots than most other people because she interacts with
three main characters. She gets to have a nice chat
with Lindsay Lohan, who's doing her nails for her wedding,
(21:13):
and so they have a whole earnest conversation about the
ethics and the larger context of marrying someone in order
to soft dodge the draft basically. Then she has a
sort of intense conversation with Demi Moore where Demi more
drunkenly says one of the most iconic lines, which is
we're all horse, we'se some of us are just paid
(21:35):
for it. And then she also gets to discover that
her husband is having an affair and then confront him.
I mean, she's the closest to being, if not a
fully fledged character, at least a character that is enmeshed
in the network of other characters in the movie rather
than just silo to their own storyline.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Yeah, she feels the closest to a real person.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yes, I think, and you know why, because she's the
only one who basically isn't just a symbol of a
social issue. Like we said, you can't directly draw a
line between Sharon Stone's character and a hot topic. She's
actually just she is a woman who's having difficulties with
her job, her marriage, and her sense of self and
(22:19):
with aging. Who among us I know, No.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
I just think she's so good. And if this movie
had thirty percent more her, Yeah, I think it would
have been a lot better. I just think that in
the hands of a more capable it's particularly a more
capable screen writer, this just would have been. This movie was,
in my opinion, bad, and it didn't have to be
(22:44):
that way. Nineteen sixty eight is one of the most
fascinating years in modern American history. Lyndon Johnson called it,
I think a year of unending nightmare. And this is
one of the most fascinating days in that year. And
the fact that they made a movie that was pretty
boring honestly is crazy. And to me, my favorite parts
(23:05):
of the whole movie were the archival footage and audio.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Yes, I agree, and it actually comparing it to the
writing of the actual movie, I was like, Wow, Bobby
had great speech writers.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Yes, he really does.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
These are actually good writers. It's very Obama like in
the sort of inspirational tone that has just enough sprinkles
of substance to have a plausible deniability that maybe something
actually legitimate is being said. And I'm not above being
emotionally manipulated. And when you show me a montage of
characters that I've met bleeding to an inspirational speech, that's
(23:37):
gonna move me despite myself.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Yeah, And the Sound of Silence and my Simon Garfunkle
is playing.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
And I have to actually admit something really shocking, which
is so. I saw this movie around when it came out.
I think it was playing on TV or something. I
don't think I intentionally rented it. And it is the
first time I had heard that song Wow, And I
literally googled lyrics to learn what song it was. And
then I was like, I love this song, and I actually,
for a while, thankfully I was under agent, was not
(24:04):
able to do this. Wanted a tattoo of some of
the lyrics of the Sound of Silence.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
I mean, I wish you would die.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
I wish I had done it, had done it, and
I could have revealed it on Zoom Live for this episode. Wow.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Yeah, I mean, look, I'm not made of stone. I
was emotional at the end too. Again, the archival footage especially,
and the music. And it's funny because the movie itself is.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Pretty boring, yes, and not affecting.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
And not affecting, and then the last five minutes of it,
I'm getting a lump in myce threat. Yeah, and that's crazy.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Yeah, because at its best, I think its biggest weakness
ends up being a strength briefly at the end, which
is it is so diffuse. It is about so many
different characters that you never actually get to know that
you don't build connections with them, But at the end
you can finally zoom out and it's almost like being like, wow,
America is the land of contrast, Like it really used
(24:59):
zoom and you're able to look at the larger picture
of where the country was at the time. But I
think the film sacrifices depth for breadth, like none of
the characters individually make you feel anything. And I think
what you're saying about how nineteen sixty eight was such
an important year is the trap the film fell into,
(25:21):
and that there's so much they could say that they
wanted to say all of it and ended up having
one sentence about each topic. Like if they just made
the movie about, you know, the Lindsay Lohan and Elijah
Wood characters, that is a really interesting story. The story
there is that they are getting married for dishonest, strategic purposes,
but in the process or falling in love. That's very
(25:43):
interesting and very impactful. And you could make a whole
movie about that, and instead they get two scenes. Yeah, totally,
and I got to say all my love to Lindsay,
and of course Elijah would very little emoting happening.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Sure. Yeah, And they had almost no che mystery. It
was crazy. And the thing that I have to say
really was this movie's moment of jumping the shark.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
Was the LSC trip and say more about that.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Okay, So, as George said, Shila Buff and Actor number
two go to Ashton Kutcher's hotel room to buy a
joint and then Ashton Kutcher wearing the worst wig I've
ever seen in my whole life.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Potentially drawn on facial hair. There was something uncanny Valley
about every single thing about it. It was like spirit
Halloween costume that's called that's called like flower child.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
It's so true it was truly heinous to look at.
And there's a guy who's never disappeared into a role
in his life. It is just like you're looking at
him and you're like, well, that's Ashton Kutcher. So he
sells them LSD and tells them that it's going to
give them a personal relationship with God, which would also
sell me.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Yes, But this.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
Extremely goofy green screen traveling in time and space montage
happens of their trip, and for a movie that takes
itself so seriously otherwise, it is a crazy thing to
put in the middle of this movie.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Well again, they just wanted to be like, you know
what else is happening in the sixties?
Speaker 2 (27:12):
Drugs, drugs, the electric acid tests.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
I mean, as we've said, this movie really hammers home.
These are the events and these are the themes of
the sixties. And one of the most unforgivable parts is
when they are tripping on acid and what they are
hallucinating is archival footage of the Vietnam War. It's so crazy,
they're not. It's like, this is a nineteen year old
stoner guy who has a crush on a waitress who
(27:38):
is volunteering for a political candidate that he found inspirational,
like he's gonna be hallucinating giant mushrooms and colorful rainbows.
He's not gonna be hallucinating archival footage of the Vietnam War.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Yeah, we're gonna be hallucinating Mary Lizbeth Winstone, Yes, exactly,
something like that. But yeah, also, child Boss, he's another
one who is doing much better than the material. And
then you hate to say, you hate to say.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
And this is a movie, of course, speaking of problematic men,
produced by the Weinstein Company, so it's a real millage
of amazing figures.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
But this is also just a really interesting point in
Shila Buk's career because it was a few years after Holes.
He had just gotten out of the Disney rotation, and
then Transformers came out the following year, so he was
on the brink and he was clearly trying to show
his chops in this serious movie, and he does a
good job. It's just that the material is really bad.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Yeah, yeah, and it's that he isn't really allowed to
shine because all of the especially the male character, would say,
they are dragged by the ensemble of it. Shia has
to be in scenes with the two other guys that
are inherently goofy. He's not given a monologue, he's not
given something to do by himself. It's interesting to think
of the young performers in this movie, all of whom
(28:49):
are doing some version of what you're saying, like trying
to be taken seriously. Because that's definitely the case with
Wendsay Lohan. It's definitely the case with Elijah Wood coming
out of Lord of the Rings. It's definitely the case
with Nick Cannon. I'm it's a big deal that he
was cast in this movie after drum Line.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Which also he's doing the drum line face in most
of the movie too, And those who have seen Drumline
will know what I'm talking about. But yeah, he is
doing the drum line straight face. He has the most
unforgivable overacting in the whole movie. It's tough, it's really rough.
It's every line read is dialed to a thirteen. It's crazy.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
I mean, it's also so unfair to have him.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
It's unfair.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
Again, everything he's made to do feels completely unauthentic. But
he's the one who has to stay the line. Now
the Doctor King is dead, Bobby is all we have
and that is the central thesis of his character, so
he has to go around being like, Okay, what is
the inner truth? By character, it's that as a black man,
he thinks the only civil rights figure that is worthy
(29:49):
of praise is Bobby Kennedy. We'll be back with more
United States of Kennedy after this break, and we're back
with United States of Kennedy. I'm very happy I have
(30:11):
someone on the podcast that has read, at least one
time a comprehensive Bobby biography. So obviously the movie is
Actually something I liked about the movie is that no
one has cast as him, and the movie is built
around archival footage.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
I really liked it.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Yeah, And obviously when he's on TV, it's easy to do,
it makes sense. But even when he is shot and
then there is a scene being filmed around him, it's
very interesting because the scene is being filmed normally you
see the various faces, and then you go to him
and it seamlessly switches into archival footage and it's just grainier.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
I really liked that, And again that was one of
those moments where I was like, Wow, a more skilled
filmmaker could have done a version of this that was
actually great, and.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
I even think, as you're saying he's a worse writer
than he is a director. I even think the scene
of spoiler alert, we learn about all these characters, and
then the big climax is that Bobby, after giving a speech,
she goes into the kitchen and as he's sort of
shaking hands with people and celebrating, he is shot. And
then there is this montage of everyone in slow motion
(31:20):
being horrified seeing people they know that have been injured,
blah blah.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
That's also interest placed with real photographs and front because
it was all on film basically, right.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
And we should say the two characters that are ever
so slightly based in reality. One is the Lindsay Lohan
character because the director met someone who had a similar story.
And then the other one is the bus boy because
there was a Mexican American bus boy that was shaking
(31:50):
Bobby's hand as he was shot. So that is a
true fact, but it's not based on his backstory or anything.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
It's not based on his backstory. But he was also
the one who in all the famous photographs was cradling
Bobby's head right when he was on the floor, and
this busboy put his rosary into Bobby's hand and closed it,
which is one of those things. Right now, it's given
me chills, but it is one of those things that
I don't know. Again, I'm not made of stone. I
(32:18):
remember reading the book ten years ago, and obviously you
know how it ends, but I still found myself crying
at the end.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
So, Juliet, what did you think of the portrayal of
Bobby in the film? Because he yes, it is archival footage,
but it is of course, like carefully selected. His impact
on people is really driven into you. We've talked about
how his relationship to civil rights is slightly whitewashed, but otherwise,
(32:47):
what did you think of the portrayal of him as
a public figure during this time.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
I honestly think that, having not been there myself, it
probably was fairly accurate to how he was thought of
in nineteen sixty eight by the people who loved him,
because I think this is like a very aphoristic rendering
of him. Obviously, I think all of the pictures at
the end, all of the real photographs of him all
over the country, that is what people loved about him.
(33:14):
The year before, in nineteen sixty seven, he had gone
to the Mississippi Delta and went out to need people
there and to see like rural poverty for himself, and
it really changed him. And everyone who met him on
that trip said that they didn't want to like him,
and they ended up really falling for him as a person.
(33:35):
And I think that that's the thing about him that
has kind of endured in his legacy is just he
really touched people. He was so emotional himself. He was
such an open wound that he really connected with people
on an interpersonal level. He loved to touch people, he
loved to rustle people's hair, and kids loved him and
he had eleven kids.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
You know.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Everything for him was visceral and tactile. And I think
that part of him really comes through in this. And
a lot of people say Eugene McCarthy is very kind
of academic and withdrawn and wasn't really hanging out with
civil rights leaders, who was hanging out with like poets
and professors. So I think there was something very real
to people about Bobby.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
Yeah. I mean, to die basically at the peak of
your popularity during an old during a primary, even because
he didn't even have a chance to then go head
to head with a Republican This is like when Obama
had momentum against Hillary in two thousand and eight, So
he had no chance to disappoint anyone because he was
(34:36):
never then in office and we never got to see,
like did he follow through on his promises? Was he
being dishonest the whole time? So the reverence really makes
sense in that way, because he died being for people
who voted him, for people who you know, are similar
to the characters in this movie. He died as just
a symbol of hope and change to quote a different politician.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
Yeah, yeah, he was a symbol of what could be yes, exactly.
And also he had clearly gone through a lot of
personal changes within himself in terms of what he believed,
and maybe in that way people in the country felt
reflected in him, because I'm sure that between the MacArthur
era and nineteen sixty eight there were millions of Americans
who felt that their own politics on or their own
(35:19):
views on the issues had changed. It makes sense why
he was so important and why his assassination was cataclysmic
in the way that it was.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
I mean, you get why Miller Estevez put all his
personal fortune into making the movie with every single every
single actor in Hollywood. Well, listen, I'm shocked we haven't
really discussed Demi Moore because Demi Moore is, as you're saying,
there's generally two kinds of acting happening. Some people are
acting like they're in a better movie than they are.
Some people are being really bogged down by the terrible writing.
(35:49):
And I think, to me, Moore is something different. She's like,
I'm here to slay, Like I came here. I came
here to play a drunk cabaret singer, and I do
not even know who's a I don't know who y'all
are voting for. Like I'm literally in a blackout. We're oh,
I'm in a blackout and my job is to hold
in Martini, smoke a cigarette and call Sharon's Stone a
(36:11):
whore and then immediately apologize and break down crying and
be like, sorry, I'm a drunk, and then have the
largest hair I've ever seen in my life. In almost
a visual gag. I felt like I was watching SNL
when she finally comes out and her hair is literally
like heavier than the rest of her body.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
It's incredible. Also, there are parts of her performance they're
great like genuinely, genuinely very good, where I'm like I
was taken aback and I was like, oh, she's doing
some of the best acting in this movie. And then
she does the calling Sharon Stone horr yeah, and then
I'm like, well, I'm out and she sings Louie Louis
and that was crazy. I so wait, hold on. There
(36:52):
was that one scene where the band is like, come on,
do some drumming with us or whatever, and then all
of a sudden, Emilio Estevez is in the middle of
this movie. Why this movie.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
Really is like, you know, Julie and I both came
up in the Boston comedy scene.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Don't hold that again us.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Yeah, but it reminds you it's like what we would
do if we were getting our friends together when we
were twenty six and putting together a comedy show. Except
they have the budget to make a giant, big budget
Hollywood movie. I thought that the scene between Sharon Stone
and to me more. You know, yes, it had its
ups and downs, but I was like, finally, this is
two actresses having an actress off. They are also really
(37:34):
connecting with one another. Yes, they clearly each want to
win the scene, but they're also doing a really good
job working together. And I thought, so, here's a directing
decision I thought was good is as Demi Mour is
making her big monologue, the camera's actually not focused on her,
It's focused on Sharon Stone's reaction and Sharon Stone I
like that to doing some really good face acting and
I was like, Okay, this is great, Like we're onto
(37:55):
something here.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
I have to say. Also, I really liked there was
a scene at the very beginning snaking through the kitchen
and it was very like the Long Shot and Good Fellas,
and I did like that scene. I thought that was cool. Yeah, yeah,
I think the Demi Mour and Sharon Stone I liked.
I liked that scene well enough. It veered into the
goofy as many of the scenes did. But I just
(38:20):
think that Sharon Stone is like so undeniable that she's
like bossing William H. Maysie around theatrically. Basically I loved
that scene.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
There's you know, she's of course a hair dressed, her
nail technician and extraordinary. She really does it all. And
in the scene where she's confronting William H. Macy about
his affair, she's cutting his hair, and again, according to
unverified IMDb trivia, she was supposed to not actually cut
his hair, but in the moment she did put the
scissors on his hair and snip snips stone.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Actually, yeah, she actually caught it, and that really added
to his look of alarm.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
Well, the IMDb trivia said it was like, so his
look of alarm was genuine, and I was like, okay, Well,
first of all, he didn't look that alarmed, and second
of all, he was also acting alarmed because he was
learning that his wife knew about his affair.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Yeah, I love IMDb trivia. Never changed.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
Great. Also, William H. Macy someone who has looked the
same for sixty years.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
It's crazy. He's got a painting in the attic somewhere.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Well, you know, happy almost twentyth anniversary to the two
thousand and six movie Bobby Amelia Estevez. You know all
my love. He has not made any super notable movies
since this. He went out on top. He went out
on top saying I will say this was a what
I would call a tepid flop. I mean, it did
make up its budget at a fourteen million dollar budget,
(39:40):
and it made globally made twenty million it didn't ruin
anyone's career, maybe him as a director, but everyone else
came out pretty much unscathed, you know, as someone who
both of us loved. Lindsay Lohan obviously were the exact
right age. It's a funny time capsule of this strange
period in ze Land's career where she was between her
(40:03):
peak and then her downfall. Gets around the same time
she did Very Home Companion. Yeah, and there's still some
light in her eyes.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
And you can see her potential still bubbling towards the surface.
And is she our Bobby Kennedy? Maybe maybe?
Speaker 1 (40:21):
Yeah, No, she's really she's our Bobby Kennedy. And the
Oprah Special was her version of being assassinated. So we're
really stuck on the hope she represented in two thousand
and five. Okay, Julia, any final thoughts on Bobby the
film or even Bobby Kennedy the individual.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
I mean, I just really wanted to underscore the Louis
Louis of it. Yes, And my last thought is it
looked like the Elijah Wood character died at the end,
right Did it not look like he had died? He
was dead?
Speaker 1 (40:53):
This is something they do not just with Elijah would
there are many characters were until the last title card,
I felt like we were supposed to think multiple people died. Yeah,
because you see people. I mean, Helen Hunt seems to
have been shot in the head.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
I know she's bleeding from the damn.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
Head, so keep going.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
Anyways, one of the ending title cards says everyone else
who was shot survived and I was like, well, that
doesn't it doesn't look like that in the movie. Elijah
Wood looks the looks Lindsay Lungan is crying over his
body and he is not moving.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
It's a strange form of emotional manipulation to truly make
the audience think a variety of characters they have follow
throughout the film are dead and then just casually places
his title card that was like, whoops, they survived, and
I'm glad they did.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
I am too.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
I would not want to live in a world where
Helen Hunt doesn't have the opportunity to explore different color
shoes during the rest of her socialite career and potentially,
you know, explore things past pop.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
Art and really rub it in Charlie Sheen's face. That's right,
Andy Warhol is going to be a huge star.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
Yeah, Martin sheen, but I would love it if she
rubbed it in Charlie as well. Right well, Julia, I
could talk to you about this movie for hours. Hopefully
next time we chat about a movie it'll be quality
away slightly better. But there's no one else I would
rather have on for this episode.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Oh God, bless I had the time in my life
as someone for whom Massachusetts is about a good half
of my personal astery. This is a huge day for me.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
And if anyone has any questions about Massachusetts Catholicism, the
Kennedy's really just anything, please DM Julia. So that's it
for this week's episode. United States of Kennedy is hosted
by me George Severes. Original music by Joshua Topolski. Production
help by Carmen lorenz Our. Executive producer is Jenna Cagele,
Research by Dave Ruce and Austin Thompson, Edited by Graham Gibson,
(42:44):
and mixed by Doug Bain. United States of Kennedy is
a production of iHeart Podcasts. Subscribe and follow United States
of Kennedy for all Things Kennedy each week
I'm George Severs, and this is United States of Kennedy,
a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty.
Every week we go into one aspect of the Kennedy story,
and today we are talking about the two thousand and
six film Bobby, written and directed by Emilio Estevez and
featuring a star studded ensemble cast, including everyone from Anthony
(00:30):
Hopkins and Sharon Stone to Lindsay Lohan and Nick Cannon.
So On June fifth, nineteen sixty eight, the day after
winning the California Democratic primary for President, Robert F. Kennedy
was shot and killed by a man named Sihan Sirhan
at the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles. It was one
of the four major political assassinations in the US in
the nineteen sixties, along with those of President John F. Kennedy,
(00:54):
Malcolm X, and Martin Luther King Junior, the last of
which happened only two months earlier. The two thousand and
six film tells the interconnected stories of a group of
fictional characters staying at the Ambassador Hotel the day Bobby
was shot. Their stories are meant to reflect the social
and political issues of the time such as racism, the
civil rights movement, the Vietnam War, the popularity of psychedelic drugs,
(01:17):
and changing attitudes around feminism and women's rights. Now that
all sounds good, but unfortunately it is a classic ensemble
movie that doesn't quite add up to more than the
sum of its parts. It was neither a critical nor
a commercial hit, although it was nominated for both a
SAG Award and a Critics Choice Award for Best Ensemble Cast.
So I wanted to discuss the ups and downs of
(01:37):
this movie with someone who truly has a well of
Kennedy knowledge, my good friend Julia Clair. Julia is a
brilliant comedian and currently a writer of all kinds at
Crooked Media. She's also one of the biggest history abuffs
I know. So I can't wait. Julia. Hello, Hi, Thank
you so much for being here to chat about the
incredible two thousand and six film Bobby. This is one
(02:01):
of those movies that is a classic, this had Oscar
Buzz movie. There's a podcast called This had Oscar Buzz
where every week they talk about a movie that was
clearly designed to get awards recognition and then it somehow
never did.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
There has never been a movie that fits that description
more than this.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
It almost feels like famous Oscar nominated actors were walking
by the set and the director was like, do you
want to just come in for one scene? We'll write
you can come in, Come on, we can improv. It'll
be great. So before we get into the movie, I
do want to talk a little bit about your relationship
with the Kennedy's writ large because, of course, when I
(02:39):
texted you last night asking how you enjoyed the movie,
you said to me, I cracked open my Bobby Kennedy
biography for the first time in years, meaning that this
is something you own and consult like one would the
Bible every few years.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Sure, sure, as one does. Yeah, it's Bobby Kennedy by
Larry Tye, longtime Boston Globe reporter. I read the book
ten years ago. You know, I'm from Massachusetts. I think
that even more so than just being an American, I
think there's a Massachusetts specific fascination with the Kennedys that's
not entirely healthy. My grandparents actually hated the Kennedys. Unsurprisingly,
(03:16):
my Boston copp grandfather was not a huge JFK.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Fan.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
I think it was a class thing too. There were
some people for whom the Kennedys were aspirational if they were,
you know, lower middle class or poor, and my grandparents
it was not like that. They just saw them as
spoiled entitled.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Yeah, I think, well, okay, you're from Massachusetts, you're Catholic,
you were a history major, correct, that's right, and I
think like American history, right.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
No, actually it was your European history. But I love history,
the history.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Yeah, So it's a natural fit that you would gravitate
towards the Kennedys, right, and why Bobby in particular.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Bobby is just like more interesting to me than JFK
by long shot. I know you guys have done two
episodes on chap equittic. I'm also much more interested in
Teddy than I am in Jack, But Bobby is. He
was just much more emotional. He's just a fascinating character
to me. He was the least handsome, smallest runt of
(04:21):
the litter and had a notorious terrible temper, just a
little teapot waiting to blow.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Yeah, I completely agree that I find both Bobby and
ted more interesting. Basically, as we do research for each
of these episodes, my actual knowledge gets slightly less spotty
with each week, and I have a depth of knowledge
about one event, but then have no idea what happened
the year after that. And the thing with Ted is,
on the one hand, chap equittic on its own is
(04:48):
such a shocking story that already that hooks you in.
But then he also, just by virtue of living longer,
just had this very long career and you could actually
write a very robust biography of him because he was
in the government for decades. And then Bobby, he was
i think also just smarter than Jack. He was the
(05:09):
brains of the operation when he was in his attorney general.
Would you say that is accurate.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Or initially in their youth that is not how Larry
Tie categorized it. He said that he was not as
naturally smart as Jack, definitely not as naturally charismatic.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
You know what it is. It's like because he didn't
have that natural charisma. My mind goes to, oh, well,
he must have been book smart, and he must have
been the one that was behind the scenes operating everything
because he wasn't good on TV. But in fact that's
also not true because I'm now remembering we did this
whole episode about him taking on organized crime and taking
on Jimmy Hoffa, and in fact, he completely fucked that
(05:46):
up as well, after like years of trying to make
it his signature number one thing. But I think maybe
the propaganda of this movie partly worked on me, and
then I came out being like, wow, he really was
the last hope for America.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
I know, I know. And there's also a lot in
this about him being the last man standing in the
civil rights movement, which he went on the real journey
with that, Like he started his career, his legislative career
as an aid to Senator Joseph McCarthy, and also much
later Obviously we can all be excused for youthful indiscretions
(06:18):
of working with Senator Joseph McCarthy, but everyone forgets that
he personally authorized the FBI wiretapping of Martin Luther King.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Right, And this is a historical spotty memory that somehow
everyone on the center to center left seems to have
about all the Kennedys. Yeah, because people often when I
read things about JFK, people just completely uncritically will refer
to him as a champion for civil rights. That was
something that was very carefully pull tested how much he
(06:47):
can say and how much she can extend on olive
branch to people that were asking for civil rights while
not alienating Southern Democrats, and this and that, and this
movie literally has a line we're jumping ahead. This was
what a my ype, straight thoughts Nick Cannon. Spoiler alert,
Nick Cannon is in this movie. God. Nick Cannon literally says,
now that doctor King is gone, no one left but.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Bobby but Bob. That's right, that's crazy. And that's also
crazy because the other candidate in the primary, this was
after Johnson had dropped out, was Eugene McCarthy, who voted
for the Civil Rights Act of Voting Rights Act. He
actually was a champion for civil rights in a lot
of different ways. But the Nick Cannon of it all
will get to get that. But the one thing that
(07:31):
all these years later stuck in my mind from that
Bobby Kennedy biography was this scene where in nineteen sixty three,
Bobby invited a bunch of civil rights icons to his
house to talk about why black Americans were gravitating towards
more violent black nationalists like Malcolm X and the Nation
(07:54):
of Islam and all that, and Essentially, he was looking
for basically all of them to be like, Wow, you
guys are doing an amazing job. Because he didn't invite
anyone from the NAACP or the Urban League. He didn't
invite Martin Luther King obviously, just authorized just wiretap. So
he had James Baldwin put together a group of artists
and intellectuals and activists, and he was again looking for
(08:17):
them to tell him what a great job the Kennedy
administration was doing. And then there was this one activist
who had been beaten by cops so many times, and
he was just like, you haven't done enough. And that
became the tone of the meeting. And Harry Bellefonte, who
was in Bobby was in that meeting. Oh my god,
and Harry Bellefonte and Bobby were pretty friendly. And after
(08:41):
the meeting, Bobby was like, why didn't you stick up
for me?
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Wow?
Speaker 2 (08:46):
And he was like, I would lose all credibility in
this space if I had done that. But yeah, it
was like Lena Horne, Harry Belafonte, James Baldwin, and a
number of other politically active black celebrities and public figures
who just read him the Riot Act and he was
pissed at the time. He wanted to be celebrated for
(09:08):
being a civil rights champion.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Yeah, well he finally got it all those years later
in two thousand and six. As Bobby, I mean, the
hagiographic tone of the movie, it really cannot be aggresiated.
And I think you're saying Harry Belafonda was a friend
of his, and he's not the only one that has
a clear emotional connection to the Kennedys in the movie.
So Amelia Estevez, who directed the movie, who wrote it
(09:30):
and wrote it, Yes, thank you, and wrote it by himself.
By the way, sometimes when you have one of these
people that's like an actor that became a director, there's
a team of people who are helping. This literally just
s has written and directed by Emelia Estevez.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
And honey, honey, he should have had a team.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
And you know what it shows for anyone who doesn't
you know, any younger listeners. Amelia Estevez, first of all,
son of Martin Sheen, brother of Charlie Sheen, wasn't member
of the brat pack of actors in the eighties who
was in the Breakfast Club, which is a funniest sort
of connection. He asked to Demi Moore, who's also in
this movie, because she was part of that.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
General Yeah, they were in scene almost fire together.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Yeah. So anyway, Emilia Estevez has distinct memories of learning
about Bobby being assassinated on he was a kid, and
Martin she and his father was a huge Kennedy supporter.
So they're just going in with all this love for
the Kennedys, and a movie like this, it would be
very easy to add, just for the sake of pretending
you're being a little more objective, to just add one
(10:24):
storyline that's like slightly critical. But every single storyline, it's
like the arc of the universe bends towards Bobby Kennedy
being the perfect American.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
That's right, that's right. Even the Christian Slater character, he's
supposed to be the racist one, he ultimately comes out
being forever changed.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Changed, and by just the presence of Bobby, it's like
Bobby basically convinces him via his speech not to be
a racist. By the end of the movie, there is
a whole Joshua Jackson plays Bobby's campaign manager, and one
of his subplots is that he doesn't want this Czechoslovakian
journalist to interview Bobby, but then she convinces him that
(11:06):
he should be supportive of other perspectives, and then he says,
of course, you can come, and I'll make sure you
have a spot at the press conference or whatever. Anyway,
so this is a great time to get into the
nitty gritty of the movie. As we mentioned, this is
one of those movies that is just like a giant
ensemble cast. Everyone has ten lines tops and I don't
(11:27):
know if the structure is based on Robert Altman's Nashville,
but it is very similar, and that Robert Altman's Nashville
is also about this giant kind of cast of characters,
and it takes place over the span of I want
to say, a week, and it's leading up to this
big benefit concert for some outsider political candidate, and similarly
with Bobby, they it's set in the Ambassador Hotel the
(11:48):
day of the California primary, and it's all leading to
a victory speech that Bobby is going to make he
wins the California primary, and then of course is shot
and killed right after, and so it follows the lives
of various people staying in that hotel for various reasons,
and very heavy handedly, one could say, explores how their
(12:10):
individual lives intersect with larger political themes of the day.
So I just want to go through all the different
actors and characters very quickly. Anthony Hopkins is a retired
hotel dorman who just hangs around at the hotel because
he loved his job so much when he was a
dorman at the hotel. He's constantly talking to his random
friend played by Harry Belafonte. They're playing chess together, They're
(12:32):
talking about aging. It's two wise old men chatting. Lindsay
Lohan is marrying Elijah Wood with the hope that if
they get married, he will be deployed to Germany instead
of Vietnam, which is something that happened a lot at
that time. People would get married specifically for this purpose.
And also Emilio Esta has in fact met a woman
who had done that, and that is what inspired him
(12:54):
to write the movie. So he built the movie around
that character all right, very quickly. Demi Moore is an
alcoholic singer that is navigating her relationship like a very
cabaret style singer named Virginia Fallon.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
I want to say she does this insane rendition of Lulu.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Louis, which was in fact recorded and released in some
capacity according to Wikipedia, but there is a Demi Moore
cover of Louie Louis. Sharon Stone plays a beautician who
works at the hotel Salon. I would say her class
signifiers are very confusing, because on the one hand, she's
clearly coded as a working class nail technician. On the
(13:31):
other hand, she is married to the manager of the hotel,
who is William H. Macy, who is in this managerial position.
So we had William H. Macy. He's Sharon Stone's husband.
He's having an affair with Heather Graham, who is a
young hot switchboard operator. Christian Slater is a racist food
and beverage manager who is fired by William H. Macy
for being racist. Laurence Fishburn comes in for truly twenty seconds.
(13:55):
He is ano chef that makes a mean blueberry pie. Yes.
Freder Rodriguez one of the two Mexican American bus boys.
His entire storyline is that he has tickets to a
baseball game but can't go because he has to work
a double shift. Shilah buff is a Kennedy campaign volunteer
who buys acid from Get Ready for This Ashton Kutcher
(14:16):
and goes on an acid trip instead of going out
and volunteering for Bobby. Helen Hunt and Martin Sheen play
a married couple who are rich campaign donor. She's a
socialite figure. At one point, he makes fun of her
for purchasing a painting of a Campbell's can of soup,
which is that's right, a warhol. Joshua Jackson, his Bobby's
campaign manager. Nick Cannon, is a staffer who falls for
(14:39):
Joy Bryan, who is Heather Graham's coworker at the switchboard. Then,
of course we have the Czechoslovakian reporter who is determined
to get an interview with Kennedy. And then there's leftover.
David crumbholds Mary Elizabeth Winstead. When I went on letterbox
to look at the cast, I had to click more
just to get to Helen h Now Academy Award winner
Helen Hunt is after and more. Yeah, we're going to
(14:59):
take a sh or break, stay with us, and we're
back with United States of Kennedy.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
The reason why all this happened is because Anthony Hopkins
was the first person to sign on, so we can
blame Anthony Hopkins for this movie.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
I believe might have been the second and they got
the yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
He said that he signed on because Anthony Hopkins was
doing it. And Amelia asked of us, was having such
a hard time getting this movie made. He had written
it right before you guessed it September eleventh, and had
terrible writer's block, which I think is evidenced in their screenplay.
And he was having a really hard time getting this
movie made. He was selling a bunch of his own
(15:50):
stuff to get this movie made. And then Anthony Hopkins,
who has a lot of personal feelings about Bobby, was
the first person to sign on, and then that was
a domino effect. All these other huge name actors signed
on for basically no money.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
M M. Yeah. The story of it really reminds me
of stories you'll hear about a biopic about a forgotten
figure in history and it's someone's passion project and everyone
is just working at scale, except it's about Kennedy. It says,
though they were all passionate about making a film about
a forgotten civil rights activist whose name they wanted to
(16:26):
get out there, except it's about someone everyone knows about
generally respect He already has a generally good reputation in
the public American imagination. But it really seemed to be
a labor of love. I mean, I recently found out
that i'mdb trivia is in no way fact checked and
completely user generated. But one of the things in IMDb
trivia that I read that I was in the middle
(16:47):
of fact check again that we had to record is
that everyone worked as a show of support of the movie.
All these famous actors were at Scale. So you have
Sharon Stone and Demi Moore. Demi Moore, by the way,
famously at one point the most highly actress in America allegedly,
you know, worked for Scale to do this movie.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
I think she and Amelia were once an item. I
think there was. I think there were once engaged. I
think they met on the set of Say Normal's Fire.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Yeah, it's funny, you know, to Reverence a different podcast,
the podcast How Did This Get Made, which is about
movies that are bad. It's like, the answer to How
Did This Get Made is just it's good old fashioned
Hollywood hobnobbing and nepotism and just everyone knowing one another
and people doing favors for one another. And the fact
that all these big actors basically just had five lines.
I am sure that for Sharon Stone, it was one
(17:33):
day on set, like she's there, she's wearing the one
outfitures as a beautician. She has those clip on bangs on,
and she's.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
You know, I love those clip on bangs.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
I mean, okay, well, we will get into bigger issues,
but I do want to ask you, since we're talking
about all these actors, who for you was the MVP
of the movie.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
So I actually I wrote this down that there are
three actors in this movie who are so good that
it is basically like they're acting in a different movie.
And it's Antanie Hopkins, Laurence Smishburn and Sharon Stone, and
all three of them, I'm like, what movie are you in?
Because Anthony Hopkins is pouring so much of himself into
this he is so grounding, and then everything else in
(18:12):
this movie is so incredibly goofy, and even actors who
are normally great are not that good in this movie.
It's not their fault. The script is bad.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
And I just want to say, one such actor, and
it's not her fault at all, is Helen Hunt. The
things that Helen Hunt is given to say, I wrote
down the Helen Hunt's black shoe speech.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
That's I wrote it down to. I wrote it down
to Helen Hunt's monologue about how it's hard to be
a woman because of shoes.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
But the black sheman like there are so you know, again,
every character is completely a symbol representing the social issues
of the sixties. So for some people it's the relationship
to Vietnam and the Draft. For some people it's the
relationship to changing attitudes around women and feminism. For some
people it's about civil rights and racial unrest in America.
(19:01):
Every single person corresponds to some social issue, and so
Helen Hunt, who is a rich social aid it's interesting.
They could have made her storyline somehow about class or
inequality or something, but they really didn't. They want you
to fully be on her side when she gives this
monologue about how difficult it is to be a wealthy woman.
And this is my issue with it, because she can't
(19:22):
find shoes that match her black dress.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
She forgot to pack her black shoes to match her
black dress, and famously.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Black goes with Everything's so shocking, And that's where I
was like, Wow, a man wrote this I know.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
That monologue was so crazy and she was so emotional
duri it. Look, I have to say I'm a Helen
Hunt hater. I do not think she is a good actor,
and I think she also in this case, was given
pretty bad material to work with.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
There was also I think maybe the worst Maybe Nick
Cannon is the worst, worst in terms of material, just
in terms of rating, and I think Helen Hunt is
second worst.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Yeah, and there was something on the IMDb trivia that
we don't know if it's true, I guess, but that
she was given her script the day before and that
would make sense. Yes, that would make a lot of sense.
But she's really bad. Also, I had no idea what
the point of her and Charlie Sheen's little vignettes were.
(20:24):
And also I was like, it's so weird that Emilio
Estevez wrote this kind of horny part for his dad.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Yes, No, it's very strange, and I almost think that
he wanted his dad to be involved and he didn't
have something for him, so he created this on the
spot or something. So you're three mvv I agree, Anthony Hopkins,
Laurence Fishburne and Sharon Stone. I mean, to me, Sharon
Stone was the MVP. She is doing trashy, fake blonde
(20:53):
nail technicians, so well, it's a register she knows she
can do. She also so gets to actually have way
more subplots than most other people because she interacts with
three main characters. She gets to have a nice chat
with Lindsay Lohan, who's doing her nails for her wedding,
(21:13):
and so they have a whole earnest conversation about the
ethics and the larger context of marrying someone in order
to soft dodge the draft basically. Then she has a
sort of intense conversation with Demi Moore where Demi more
drunkenly says one of the most iconic lines, which is
we're all horse, we'se some of us are just paid
(21:35):
for it. And then she also gets to discover that
her husband is having an affair and then confront him.
I mean, she's the closest to being, if not a
fully fledged character, at least a character that is enmeshed
in the network of other characters in the movie rather
than just silo to their own storyline.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Yeah, she feels the closest to a real person.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yes, I think, and you know why, because she's the
only one who basically isn't just a symbol of a
social issue. Like we said, you can't directly draw a
line between Sharon Stone's character and a hot topic. She's
actually just she is a woman who's having difficulties with
her job, her marriage, and her sense of self and
(22:19):
with aging. Who among us I know, No.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
I just think she's so good. And if this movie
had thirty percent more her, Yeah, I think it would
have been a lot better. I just think that in
the hands of a more capable it's particularly a more
capable screen writer, this just would have been. This movie was,
in my opinion, bad, and it didn't have to be
(22:44):
that way. Nineteen sixty eight is one of the most
fascinating years in modern American history. Lyndon Johnson called it,
I think a year of unending nightmare. And this is
one of the most fascinating days in that year. And
the fact that they made a movie that was pretty
boring honestly is crazy. And to me, my favorite parts
(23:05):
of the whole movie were the archival footage and audio.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Yes, I agree, and it actually comparing it to the
writing of the actual movie, I was like, Wow, Bobby
had great speech writers.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Yes, he really does.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
These are actually good writers. It's very Obama like in
the sort of inspirational tone that has just enough sprinkles
of substance to have a plausible deniability that maybe something
actually legitimate is being said. And I'm not above being
emotionally manipulated. And when you show me a montage of
characters that I've met bleeding to an inspirational speech, that's
(23:37):
gonna move me despite myself.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Yeah, And the Sound of Silence and my Simon Garfunkle
is playing.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
And I have to actually admit something really shocking, which
is so. I saw this movie around when it came out.
I think it was playing on TV or something. I
don't think I intentionally rented it. And it is the
first time I had heard that song Wow, And I
literally googled lyrics to learn what song it was. And
then I was like, I love this song, and I actually,
for a while, thankfully I was under agent, was not
(24:04):
able to do this. Wanted a tattoo of some of
the lyrics of the Sound of Silence.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
I mean, I wish you would die.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
I wish I had done it, had done it, and
I could have revealed it on Zoom Live for this episode. Wow.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Yeah, I mean, look, I'm not made of stone. I
was emotional at the end too. Again, the archival footage especially,
and the music. And it's funny because the movie itself is.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Pretty boring, yes, and not affecting.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
And not affecting, and then the last five minutes of it,
I'm getting a lump in myce threat. Yeah, and that's crazy.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Yeah, because at its best, I think its biggest weakness
ends up being a strength briefly at the end, which
is it is so diffuse. It is about so many
different characters that you never actually get to know that
you don't build connections with them, But at the end
you can finally zoom out and it's almost like being like, wow,
America is the land of contrast, Like it really used
(24:59):
zoom and you're able to look at the larger picture
of where the country was at the time. But I
think the film sacrifices depth for breadth, like none of
the characters individually make you feel anything. And I think
what you're saying about how nineteen sixty eight was such
an important year is the trap the film fell into,
(25:21):
and that there's so much they could say that they
wanted to say all of it and ended up having
one sentence about each topic. Like if they just made
the movie about, you know, the Lindsay Lohan and Elijah
Wood characters, that is a really interesting story. The story
there is that they are getting married for dishonest, strategic purposes,
but in the process or falling in love. That's very
(25:43):
interesting and very impactful. And you could make a whole
movie about that, and instead they get two scenes. Yeah, totally,
and I got to say all my love to Lindsay,
and of course Elijah would very little emoting happening.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Sure. Yeah, And they had almost no che mystery. It
was crazy. And the thing that I have to say
really was this movie's moment of jumping the shark.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
Was the LSC trip and say more about that.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Okay, So, as George said, Shila Buff and Actor number
two go to Ashton Kutcher's hotel room to buy a
joint and then Ashton Kutcher wearing the worst wig I've
ever seen in my whole life.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Potentially drawn on facial hair. There was something uncanny Valley
about every single thing about it. It was like spirit
Halloween costume that's called that's called like flower child.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
It's so true it was truly heinous to look at.
And there's a guy who's never disappeared into a role
in his life. It is just like you're looking at
him and you're like, well, that's Ashton Kutcher. So he
sells them LSD and tells them that it's going to
give them a personal relationship with God, which would also
sell me.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Yes, But this.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
Extremely goofy green screen traveling in time and space montage
happens of their trip, and for a movie that takes
itself so seriously otherwise, it is a crazy thing to
put in the middle of this movie.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Well again, they just wanted to be like, you know
what else is happening in the sixties?
Speaker 2 (27:12):
Drugs, drugs, the electric acid tests.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
I mean, as we've said, this movie really hammers home.
These are the events and these are the themes of
the sixties. And one of the most unforgivable parts is
when they are tripping on acid and what they are
hallucinating is archival footage of the Vietnam War. It's so crazy,
they're not. It's like, this is a nineteen year old
stoner guy who has a crush on a waitress who
(27:38):
is volunteering for a political candidate that he found inspirational,
like he's gonna be hallucinating giant mushrooms and colorful rainbows.
He's not gonna be hallucinating archival footage of the Vietnam War.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Yeah, we're gonna be hallucinating Mary Lizbeth Winstone, Yes, exactly,
something like that. But yeah, also, child Boss, he's another
one who is doing much better than the material. And
then you hate to say, you hate to say.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
And this is a movie, of course, speaking of problematic men,
produced by the Weinstein Company, so it's a real millage
of amazing figures.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
But this is also just a really interesting point in
Shila Buk's career because it was a few years after Holes.
He had just gotten out of the Disney rotation, and
then Transformers came out the following year, so he was
on the brink and he was clearly trying to show
his chops in this serious movie, and he does a
good job. It's just that the material is really bad.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Yeah, yeah, and it's that he isn't really allowed to
shine because all of the especially the male character, would say,
they are dragged by the ensemble of it. Shia has
to be in scenes with the two other guys that
are inherently goofy. He's not given a monologue, he's not
given something to do by himself. It's interesting to think
of the young performers in this movie, all of whom
(28:49):
are doing some version of what you're saying, like trying
to be taken seriously. Because that's definitely the case with
Wendsay Lohan. It's definitely the case with Elijah Wood coming
out of Lord of the Rings. It's definitely the case
with Nick Cannon. I'm it's a big deal that he
was cast in this movie after drum Line.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Which also he's doing the drum line face in most
of the movie too, And those who have seen Drumline
will know what I'm talking about. But yeah, he is
doing the drum line straight face. He has the most
unforgivable overacting in the whole movie. It's tough, it's really rough.
It's every line read is dialed to a thirteen. It's crazy.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
I mean, it's also so unfair to have him.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
It's unfair.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
Again, everything he's made to do feels completely unauthentic. But
he's the one who has to stay the line. Now
the Doctor King is dead, Bobby is all we have
and that is the central thesis of his character, so
he has to go around being like, Okay, what is
the inner truth? By character, it's that as a black man,
he thinks the only civil rights figure that is worthy
(29:49):
of praise is Bobby Kennedy. We'll be back with more
United States of Kennedy after this break, and we're back
with United States of Kennedy. I'm very happy I have
(30:11):
someone on the podcast that has read, at least one
time a comprehensive Bobby biography. So obviously the movie is
Actually something I liked about the movie is that no
one has cast as him, and the movie is built
around archival footage.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
I really liked it.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Yeah, And obviously when he's on TV, it's easy to do,
it makes sense. But even when he is shot and
then there is a scene being filmed around him, it's
very interesting because the scene is being filmed normally you
see the various faces, and then you go to him
and it seamlessly switches into archival footage and it's just grainier.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
I really liked that, And again that was one of
those moments where I was like, Wow, a more skilled
filmmaker could have done a version of this that was
actually great, and.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
I even think, as you're saying he's a worse writer
than he is a director. I even think the scene
of spoiler alert, we learn about all these characters, and
then the big climax is that Bobby, after giving a speech,
she goes into the kitchen and as he's sort of
shaking hands with people and celebrating, he is shot. And
then there is this montage of everyone in slow motion
(31:20):
being horrified seeing people they know that have been injured,
blah blah.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
That's also interest placed with real photographs and front because
it was all on film basically, right.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
And we should say the two characters that are ever
so slightly based in reality. One is the Lindsay Lohan
character because the director met someone who had a similar story.
And then the other one is the bus boy because
there was a Mexican American bus boy that was shaking
(31:50):
Bobby's hand as he was shot. So that is a
true fact, but it's not based on his backstory or anything.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
It's not based on his backstory. But he was also
the one who in all the famous photographs was cradling
Bobby's head right when he was on the floor, and
this busboy put his rosary into Bobby's hand and closed it,
which is one of those things. Right now, it's given
me chills, but it is one of those things that
I don't know. Again, I'm not made of stone. I
(32:18):
remember reading the book ten years ago, and obviously you
know how it ends, but I still found myself crying
at the end.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
So, Juliet, what did you think of the portrayal of
Bobby in the film? Because he yes, it is archival footage,
but it is of course, like carefully selected. His impact
on people is really driven into you. We've talked about
how his relationship to civil rights is slightly whitewashed, but otherwise,
(32:47):
what did you think of the portrayal of him as
a public figure during this time.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
I honestly think that, having not been there myself, it
probably was fairly accurate to how he was thought of
in nineteen sixty eight by the people who loved him,
because I think this is like a very aphoristic rendering
of him. Obviously, I think all of the pictures at
the end, all of the real photographs of him all
over the country, that is what people loved about him.
(33:14):
The year before, in nineteen sixty seven, he had gone
to the Mississippi Delta and went out to need people
there and to see like rural poverty for himself, and
it really changed him. And everyone who met him on
that trip said that they didn't want to like him,
and they ended up really falling for him as a person.
(33:35):
And I think that that's the thing about him that
has kind of endured in his legacy is just he
really touched people. He was so emotional himself. He was
such an open wound that he really connected with people
on an interpersonal level. He loved to touch people, he
loved to rustle people's hair, and kids loved him and
he had eleven kids.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
You know.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Everything for him was visceral and tactile. And I think
that part of him really comes through in this. And
a lot of people say Eugene McCarthy is very kind
of academic and withdrawn and wasn't really hanging out with
civil rights leaders, who was hanging out with like poets
and professors. So I think there was something very real
to people about Bobby.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
Yeah. I mean, to die basically at the peak of
your popularity during an old during a primary, even because
he didn't even have a chance to then go head
to head with a Republican This is like when Obama
had momentum against Hillary in two thousand and eight, So
he had no chance to disappoint anyone because he was
(34:36):
never then in office and we never got to see,
like did he follow through on his promises? Was he
being dishonest the whole time? So the reverence really makes
sense in that way, because he died being for people
who voted him, for people who you know, are similar
to the characters in this movie. He died as just
a symbol of hope and change to quote a different politician.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
Yeah, yeah, he was a symbol of what could be yes, exactly.
And also he had clearly gone through a lot of
personal changes within himself in terms of what he believed,
and maybe in that way people in the country felt
reflected in him, because I'm sure that between the MacArthur
era and nineteen sixty eight there were millions of Americans
who felt that their own politics on or their own
(35:19):
views on the issues had changed. It makes sense why
he was so important and why his assassination was cataclysmic
in the way that it was.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
I mean, you get why Miller Estevez put all his
personal fortune into making the movie with every single every
single actor in Hollywood. Well, listen, I'm shocked we haven't
really discussed Demi Moore because Demi Moore is, as you're saying,
there's generally two kinds of acting happening. Some people are
acting like they're in a better movie than they are.
Some people are being really bogged down by the terrible writing.
(35:49):
And I think, to me, Moore is something different. She's like,
I'm here to slay, Like I came here. I came
here to play a drunk cabaret singer, and I do
not even know who's a I don't know who y'all
are voting for. Like I'm literally in a blackout. We're oh,
I'm in a blackout and my job is to hold
in Martini, smoke a cigarette and call Sharon's Stone a
(36:11):
whore and then immediately apologize and break down crying and
be like, sorry, I'm a drunk, and then have the
largest hair I've ever seen in my life. In almost
a visual gag. I felt like I was watching SNL
when she finally comes out and her hair is literally
like heavier than the rest of her body.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
It's incredible. Also, there are parts of her performance they're
great like genuinely, genuinely very good, where I'm like I
was taken aback and I was like, oh, she's doing
some of the best acting in this movie. And then
she does the calling Sharon Stone horr yeah, and then
I'm like, well, I'm out and she sings Louie Louis
and that was crazy. I so wait, hold on. There
(36:52):
was that one scene where the band is like, come on,
do some drumming with us or whatever, and then all
of a sudden, Emilio Estevez is in the middle of
this movie. Why this movie.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
Really is like, you know, Julie and I both came
up in the Boston comedy scene.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Don't hold that again us.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Yeah, but it reminds you it's like what we would
do if we were getting our friends together when we
were twenty six and putting together a comedy show. Except
they have the budget to make a giant, big budget
Hollywood movie. I thought that the scene between Sharon Stone
and to me more. You know, yes, it had its
ups and downs, but I was like, finally, this is
two actresses having an actress off. They are also really
(37:34):
connecting with one another. Yes, they clearly each want to
win the scene, but they're also doing a really good
job working together. And I thought, so, here's a directing
decision I thought was good is as Demi Mour is
making her big monologue, the camera's actually not focused on her,
It's focused on Sharon Stone's reaction and Sharon Stone I
like that to doing some really good face acting and
I was like, Okay, this is great, Like we're onto
(37:55):
something here.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
I have to say. Also, I really liked there was
a scene at the very beginning snaking through the kitchen
and it was very like the Long Shot and Good Fellas,
and I did like that scene. I thought that was cool. Yeah, yeah,
I think the Demi Mour and Sharon Stone I liked.
I liked that scene well enough. It veered into the
goofy as many of the scenes did. But I just
(38:20):
think that Sharon Stone is like so undeniable that she's
like bossing William H. Maysie around theatrically. Basically I loved
that scene.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
There's you know, she's of course a hair dressed, her
nail technician and extraordinary. She really does it all. And
in the scene where she's confronting William H. Macy about
his affair, she's cutting his hair, and again, according to
unverified IMDb trivia, she was supposed to not actually cut
his hair, but in the moment she did put the
scissors on his hair and snip snips stone.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Actually, yeah, she actually caught it, and that really added
to his look of alarm.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
Well, the IMDb trivia said it was like, so his
look of alarm was genuine, and I was like, okay, Well,
first of all, he didn't look that alarmed, and second
of all, he was also acting alarmed because he was
learning that his wife knew about his affair.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Yeah, I love IMDb trivia. Never changed.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
Great. Also, William H. Macy someone who has looked the
same for sixty years.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
It's crazy. He's got a painting in the attic somewhere.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Well, you know, happy almost twentyth anniversary to the two
thousand and six movie Bobby Amelia Estevez. You know all
my love. He has not made any super notable movies
since this. He went out on top. He went out
on top saying I will say this was a what
I would call a tepid flop. I mean, it did
make up its budget at a fourteen million dollar budget,
(39:40):
and it made globally made twenty million it didn't ruin
anyone's career, maybe him as a director, but everyone else
came out pretty much unscathed, you know, as someone who
both of us loved. Lindsay Lohan obviously were the exact
right age. It's a funny time capsule of this strange
period in ze Land's career where she was between her
(40:03):
peak and then her downfall. Gets around the same time
she did Very Home Companion. Yeah, and there's still some
light in her eyes.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
And you can see her potential still bubbling towards the surface.
And is she our Bobby Kennedy? Maybe maybe?
Speaker 1 (40:21):
Yeah, No, she's really she's our Bobby Kennedy. And the
Oprah Special was her version of being assassinated. So we're
really stuck on the hope she represented in two thousand
and five. Okay, Julia, any final thoughts on Bobby the
film or even Bobby Kennedy the individual.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
I mean, I just really wanted to underscore the Louis
Louis of it. Yes, And my last thought is it
looked like the Elijah Wood character died at the end,
right Did it not look like he had died? He
was dead?
Speaker 1 (40:53):
This is something they do not just with Elijah would
there are many characters were until the last title card,
I felt like we were supposed to think multiple people died. Yeah,
because you see people. I mean, Helen Hunt seems to
have been shot in the head.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
I know she's bleeding from the damn.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
Head, so keep going.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
Anyways, one of the ending title cards says everyone else
who was shot survived and I was like, well, that
doesn't it doesn't look like that in the movie. Elijah
Wood looks the looks Lindsay Lungan is crying over his
body and he is not moving.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
It's a strange form of emotional manipulation to truly make
the audience think a variety of characters they have follow
throughout the film are dead and then just casually places
his title card that was like, whoops, they survived, and
I'm glad they did.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
I am too.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
I would not want to live in a world where
Helen Hunt doesn't have the opportunity to explore different color
shoes during the rest of her socialite career and potentially,
you know, explore things past pop.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
Art and really rub it in Charlie Sheen's face. That's right,
Andy Warhol is going to be a huge star.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
Yeah, Martin sheen, but I would love it if she
rubbed it in Charlie as well. Right well, Julia, I
could talk to you about this movie for hours. Hopefully
next time we chat about a movie it'll be quality
away slightly better. But there's no one else I would
rather have on for this episode.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Oh God, bless I had the time in my life
as someone for whom Massachusetts is about a good half
of my personal astery. This is a huge day for me.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
And if anyone has any questions about Massachusetts Catholicism, the
Kennedy's really just anything, please DM Julia. So that's it
for this week's episode. United States of Kennedy is hosted
by me George Severes. Original music by Joshua Topolski. Production
help by Carmen lorenz Our. Executive producer is Jenna Cagele,
Research by Dave Ruce and Austin Thompson, Edited by Graham Gibson,
(42:44):
and mixed by Doug Bain. United States of Kennedy is
a production of iHeart Podcasts. Subscribe and follow United States
of Kennedy for all Things Kennedy each week
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