August 4, 2025 • 45 mins
Jackie Kennedy was only 34 years old when JFK was assassinated. She was suddenly a single mother of two — and one of the most famous women in the world. We’re joined by J. Randy Taraborrelli, author of the bestselling biography ‘Jackie: Public, Private, Secret’ and the just-released ‘JFK: Public, Private, Secret’, to talk about the relationships that defined Jackie’s post-White House life.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Okay, mom, what do you think when I say Jackie O.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
First of all, she was extremely popular in Greece when
she was the first Lady because she came to Greece
in a like unofficial official visit when her husband was
the president.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
That made her extremely popular in Greece.
Speaker 4 (00:26):
So after Kennedy was assassinated and she started seeing Onassis
or what was the public's.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
Response to that, Well, I don't know.
Speaker 5 (00:36):
I mean, it wasn't so much Jackie as you know,
on Nasis the people hated because he had this affair
with Maria Callas, the opera singers, and then all of
a sudden.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
He abandoned her essentially to have you know, another German
his collection. So have you know, married the widow of
the US president and you know, let didn't go well
with a grief Well concerning.
Speaker 6 (01:01):
Her, I mean, okay, it was a business agreement in
a way. She was looking for security, both financial and
physical security for herself and her children, and he wanted
to get the ultimate status symbol what was the wood
of the US President.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
So she wasn't very popular at the time. But it's
not like they hated her or anything.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
It was more Nazis, but you know they criticized.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
I'm George Severies, I'm Lara Smith, and this is United
States of Kennedy, a podcast about our cultural fascination with
the Kennedy dynasty. Each week we go into one aspect
of the Kennedy story, and today we are talking about
Jackie O's dating life.
Speaker 7 (01:53):
And the thing is, she had such an evolution in
her life.
Speaker 8 (01:57):
Her approach towards romance and sex was heavily influenced by
her parents, but the insanity of her life constantly shook
that foundation in really surprising ways.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
Yeah, and her relationship to the public really affected her
private life in a way that very few women in
history have experienced, and mostly in that she just didn't
have a private life anymore.
Speaker 8 (02:18):
Jackie had a few notable relationships in the years after
JFK's assassination. First with Jack Warnike, an architect who worked
with her on preserving Lafayette Square in DC and also
designed JFK's memorial, the Eternal Flame in Arlington National Cemetery.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
Then there was David ormsby Gore, a British diplomat and
friend of the family really who spent a lot of
time in the White House during Kennedy's presidency, and of
course aristotle Onassis, Greek shipping magnet, one of the world's
wealthiest men in the twentieth century, and Jackie's sister's boyfriend.
Speaker 8 (02:54):
So today we are talking to Jay Randy Terra Borelli.
He's the author of Jackie Public Private Secret, which is
a relentlessly researched biography of Jackie Easier to discuss her
most interesting relationships with dating and family. Randy thinks, so
much for joining.
Speaker 9 (03:12):
Us, I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 8 (03:14):
So this episode is primarily about Jackie's dating life, her
romantic life. And to start, really we wanted to ask
what was her parents' relationship.
Speaker 9 (03:26):
Like, well, her parents' relationship Janet, Janet, Lee and Jack Bouvier. Well,
it wasn't good and it very much became sort of
the template for both Janet and Jackie and Lee as
to what not to do and what not to accept.
(03:49):
The problem with Jack Bouvier was that, you know, he
was chronically unfaithful to his wife Janet, and she kept
going back to him despite that, and it made Janet
feel very weak. And Janet said, weakness is something that
you inherit she said, my mother inherited it from her mother.
(04:12):
I inherited it from my mother, and she said, and
I'll be damned if Jackie and Lee inherited from me.
And she said, I will not raise weak daughters.
Speaker 7 (04:22):
Period.
Speaker 9 (04:23):
So the eye was always watching for this strain of infidelity.
And that's why it's so ironic that Jackie ended up
with JFK. Because he was chronically unfaithful in the same
way that her father was chronically unfaithful to her mother.
But I will say that they didn't go into the
marriage blindly. They knew what they were getting into. They
(04:44):
made a decision as mother and daughter. They made a decision,
you know that Look, he's got money, and he's got power,
and he's a senator. He's probably going to be a president.
He'll probably cheat, but let's he doesn't and let's take
a chance. And that decision, you know, was a faithful decision,
(05:06):
and it was one that Janet regretted very much. She
very much regretted I don't want to say forcing her
daughter into the marriage, but encouraging her daughter into that marriage,
because when JFK was unfaithful to Jackie was very hurtful,
and Janet, the mom, blamed herself.
Speaker 8 (05:26):
Something that I find really interesting in the conversation that
Janet and Jackie had and the choices that Jackie made
with all the information that she had, is that I
think we get presented this idea that at that point
in time, every woman just had to accept that every
(05:48):
man was going to cheat, and she was a doting
housewife at heart, and that's kind of the image that
she did resent as first Lady because it felt like
at first, it seems like she felt like that was
what was needed or desired for the role.
Speaker 7 (06:09):
But it's just so interesting to read.
Speaker 8 (06:11):
About how many times Jackie made the decision to stay
and it was an educated decision and had all the
information up front, and it wasn't a huge shock to her.
You know that he was having affairs, and it was
more so like the nature of the affairs or the
specifics of the person that were the issue a lot
(06:32):
of times.
Speaker 9 (06:33):
Well, I think that what you're saying is very true.
And the follow up to Jackie Public Private Secret, which
is my present book JFK. Public Private Secret, I go
into that a little bit more, and it's interesting the
bargains we sometimes make with ourselves in order to move
forward with our lives and Jackie went from this does
(06:55):
not happen to me, too, well, this does happen to me,
but only because I allow. And you know, originally, when
she first found out that JFK was cheating on her,
she was like, no, this doesn't happen to me. And
you know, she was ready to file for divorce, and
she met with attorneys and they they were moving forward
(07:15):
with the possibility of a divorce, and ultimately that didn't happen,
and Jackie accepted a financial payment from JFK's father to
stay in the marriage, which you know, a lot of
people have a dim view of, but I kind of
don't I think she I think she earned it, you know,
I mean, I just I think that it was an
(07:36):
empowering decision for her to, you know, make that deal
because she knew that she wasn't going to be able
to divorce this man. She knew that she was not
going to be able to go up against the Kennedy machinery.
It just it just wasn't going to happen, you know.
So she made a choice and she did accept, you know,
a nice payment to stay in the marriage. But then
(07:57):
you know, she learned another lesson which is that money
doesn't buy happiness, you know. And that was a hard
lesson for her because she and her sister Lee were
taught from a very early age by their mother that
the secret to happily ever after is money and power.
That's what they were taught. Come to find out it
wasn't quite true. It's funny there's so much talk of
(08:19):
weakness and strength in their family. I mean, it really
is like an undercurrent throughout the book. And there's a
way in which they talk about kind of the day
to day of dating and marriage as though every day
you're going to war, Like there's something very intense about
like every day you get up and you make do
with what you have and you win, you know. And
(08:39):
I was actually thinking, I mean, this is sort of
a tangent, but I was thinking this sort of contributes
to Jackie's reputation as like a survivor. And I think
also we were talking the other day about what makes
her kind of like a gay icon, and I think
that's a big part of it, is just like this
sort of like even when the cards are stacked against her,
like she comes out on top.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
But speaking of Lee, just before we move on, I
wanted to ask for anyone who might not know or
who might.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Not have read about the book.
Speaker 4 (09:06):
Like, one of the big things we talked about is
that Lee was originally the one JFK was interested in,
and there was a very conscious decision made sort of
collaboratively between Jackie and her mother that Jackie would be
the one to pursue him. So can you talk just
a little bit about the logistics of how that happened. Well,
that's something that surprised me in the research of my book.
(09:26):
You know that that decision had been made, and it
made me feel, you know, badly for Lee because she's
always in her sister's shadow. And later on, you know,
Jackie gets on Nassas too, who was also Lee's first
This is to say that JFK and Lee had a
big affair, as Leon on NASAs did. I mean Lee
and on NASAs were actually in love. Lee I just
(09:47):
met JFK and she was only nineteen years old. He
was in his thirties, and they had nice a little
bit of a flirtation, but then they didn't even go out.
He was getting ready to call her to ask her
out on a date, and when the mom found out
about it, Janet. She was like, hm, that's interesting, you know,
(10:07):
and then she put this together in her head. Jackie
is I think she was about twenty four years old,
maybe twenty three. Lee was nineteen, and Janet's decision was
that Jackie needed to get settled. That's what they called
it back then, getting settled, meaning you need to get
married and get settled. And if you weren't settled by
twenty three, that was not going to bode well for
(10:30):
you in society. And so Janet's decision was to let
Jackie have JFK.
Speaker 9 (10:38):
And she told Lee, look, you'll get the next guy, right,
but this one has to be your sisters, because she
needs to be settled. They had no idea, you know,
what this was going to turn into, you know, they
had no idea whether this was going to be a
happy marriage or and certainly no idea that Jackie was
going to end up first lady. They were just Jane
(10:59):
was just trying to get herself, you know, and and
so that's what happened. You know, Janet encouraged Jackie. You
might want to say Janet made Jackie, you know, start
going out with JFK to see, you know, if that
could actually happen, and ultimately it did, and Lee ended
up on the having sort of the short end of
the stick that in that respect.
Speaker 7 (11:20):
But the crazy part about that is that Jackie was engaged.
Speaker 9 (11:23):
Yes, well you know, that is the crazy part, except
for the fact that they found out that the guy
that she was engaged to didn't have as much money
as Janet thought he had. And once that was determined,
then Janet was like, well, he's not for you. And
Jackie wasn't that crazy about the guy anyway, you know,
the only reason that he was in the picture was
because they thought he was wealthier than he was. But
(11:47):
there it wasn't like Jackie was, you know, absolutely wild
about him. It's funny thing because I actually, can you
believe it. I actually interviewed that guy Wow, like about
twenty five years ago, you know, and he said, you
know that there was not a big spark between them,
but there wasn't between Jackie and JFK either, you know,
And when Jackie and JFK started going out, it was
(12:08):
it wasn't you know, it's fine, it was okay, you know,
but today they would be considered to have a lack
of chemistry. You know, today if they were going out,
they would probably take a look at the situation and decide, well,
this is we're not right for each other and there's
no chemistry between us, so let's just move on, you know.
(12:29):
But back then that wasn't so much the case. Back
then they both really had a strong motivation to make
this thing work, and so they just continued sort of,
you know, like like you say, you know, every day
is a battle to be won, you know, let's just
figure out a way forward and get to the victory.
And and that's what they did.
Speaker 8 (12:50):
And it seems like Jackie, though, did have chemistry with
other people. She had had like exciting romantic experience instances
before she met JFK. And you know, aside from Jack
Houston that she was like not crazy about. But were
there any like specific instances when she was you know,
(13:12):
pre JFK that she was actually like excited and.
Speaker 9 (13:17):
Well, you know, well there were a few moments, but
there were there weren't a lot.
Speaker 8 (13:21):
You know.
Speaker 9 (13:21):
I actually always thought that she and Yusha Archinclaus, who
would have been great together. Unfortunately he was her step brother,
so that didn't work. But they were crazy about each other,
you know, and they went to Europe together and they
just you know, and he gave her her first kiss.
(13:42):
I interviewed him, and he was still crazy about her,
even in his old age, and kind of a little
bit regretful, you know, that they that they could not
be together because had it not been for the fact
that her mom married his father, you know, they might
have ended up together. You know, but jack he had
a few experiences. I mean, she lost her virginity and
(14:03):
an elevator in Paris. I think, you know, I don't
know that doubt was exactly passionate as much as it
was interesting.
Speaker 7 (14:11):
Right, what's the story to that?
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Yeah, what's the story there?
Speaker 9 (14:16):
Well, the story there's a better there's a bigger story
than what happened. I mean, what happened was she met
this guy. I can't remember his name right now, but
it's in my book, and you know, they hit it
off and they ended up having sex at an elevator,
which was she was a virgin. So this was like huge,
But that's fine. That's not what interested me, to be
(14:36):
honest with you. What interested me was what happened after that,
which was Jackie made Lee promise not to tell their mother, Janet,
Please don't tell mommy about this, and Lee promised, and
then in order to curry favor with the mom, Lee
went and told her, you know, and Jackie was so
(14:57):
upset and felt so betrayed to me, really said everything
you need to know about this, sister Lee dynamic. You
know that, in truth, had the tables been reversed, Jackie
might have done the same thing, because they would they
would do anything that they could think of to be
in the mom's favor. And what better thing could Lee
do it? And to tell her mother this? Right? So
(15:19):
that's a story from my book Jackie, Janet and Lee,
you know, which was about the mom and the two daughters.
But I always thought that that was a really interesting story.
Speaker 4 (15:45):
I'm trying to remember where if this was in the
book or if you said it in an interview somewhere,
but this idea that towards the end of her life,
someone asked Lee, are you happy?
Speaker 1 (15:54):
And she said, I'm almost happy? Was that the right quote?
Speaker 9 (15:57):
Yeah, that's it. I can't believe that you remember that,
because that's you know that that actually was me.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
It was, yes, there you go, it was me, you know.
Speaker 9 (16:06):
And the last time I saw her, because I really
I liked her so much, and she had been had
such a hard life, and I remember asking her. She
looked like she was okay, But there was always a
sadness about Lee that and I don't really know sometimes
if it was that she sort of relayed this sadness,
(16:26):
or was it that we know so much about her
sadness that we sort of made her sad in our minds?
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 9 (16:35):
Whenever I saw her, I felt like there was sadness
there and I asked her, I said, Lee, you know,
are you happy? Are you happy? Now? You know? She
thought about it and she said, well, I'm almost happy.
I thought, Wow, I just don't even know what to
make of that. I had never heard that before, and
(16:55):
that made me sad. So here we go, right, we
went right back to sadness. You know, I don't know
that she was particularly sad in that moment, but I
know I was.
Speaker 8 (17:05):
I mean, they both lost their sons, like in a
really close period of time, right, I mean, they had
such parallels in their lives, even beyond just being sisters
and the type of men that they were with in
their life.
Speaker 9 (17:19):
And the mom you know, I mean them and they
were very different too. They were so different in the
sense that Lee was okay with infidelity. It's like Lee
took after the father and Jackie took after the mom.
The mother was not okay with infidelity, you know, and
she and JFK were longerheads about this throughout their entire relationship.
(17:42):
Jana loved JFK, but she did not love some of
those moments with her daughter. And Janet used to say
of JFK, so many women, so little sense, right. But
Lee cheated on her husband, both of them, you know,
And she cheated on Stass with Onassis, and everybody was
(18:07):
in the family was like, oh my god, because Jackie
never would have done that. Jackie did not. She didn't
she never cheated, and you know, everybody in the family
was like, well, how could Lee do this knowing how
her mom feels about it and how Jackie feels about it.
How is because Lee took after her father, who also
did it, and Lee at one point, you know, when
(18:28):
Jackie confided in Lee that she believed that JFK was
cheating on her and she was thinking about divorcing him,
Lee said, why are you making such a big deal
about this? You know, daddy cheated on mommy and it
all worked out just fine. And Jackie's response to that
was for who right for who? So they were very
(18:50):
different in that respect.
Speaker 4 (18:51):
So Jackie, you know, dealt with the sort of day
to day cumuliations of JFK's cheating and of rumors that
weren't even true. I mean, I was of surprise to
learn that the Marilyn affair was basically like a one
time or a one weekend thing. I mean, some of
these things were also sort of blown up in the media.
But after JFK died, Jackie was still young. She was
(19:13):
sort of, you know, one of the most famous women
in the world, and what was her dating life like
kind of between JFK and on Nassis, like, who were
the major figures?
Speaker 9 (19:22):
Well, to answer your question, there was one major figure,
and that was Jack Warnike, the architect, who I had
the great pleasure of knowing, and he was such a
great guy, and he designed JFK's memorial at Arlington. In
about six months after JFK was gone, he and Jackie
(19:43):
started dating. And it was difficult for her at first
because she was in such grief over jack and she
was suffering for such PTSD. But she really wanted to
get on with her life, and he really wanted to
be the one, you know, and as I wrote in
the book, it was it was a complicated relationship, but
he I believe from what he told me, from knowing him,
(20:06):
that he really loved her, and I think she really
loved him too. He was such a good man, and
he was sturdy. He knew JFK. He had worked with
JFK on Lafayette Park, so they had that history together,
and he was a good guy and they what's astonishing
about it is that they were He asked her to
marry him.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
She agreed.
Speaker 9 (20:28):
So you're thinking about Jackie Kennedy being arguably the most
famous woman in the world at that time. We're talking
about sixty five, sixty six, sixty seven who was more
famous than Jackie Kennedy. Yet how did we not know
about this guy? You know? That's the thing that really
I mean. I asked jack I said, how did all
this happen? And nobody knew about it? And he said,
(20:49):
back then, you didn't talk about it. Nobody knew about it.
You know, today, if the most famous woman in the
world was engaged to somebody, you would definitely know about it,
you know. I don't know who that would be. You know,
who's the most famous woman in the world is right now?
I don't know, but you know, certainly it's whoever that
is if she was engaged to be married, it would
(21:11):
be on TMZ right. And Jackie was able to keep
this private. No one knew about to be honest with you,
no one knew about it until I wrote about it, right,
and jackie public private secret. You know that's I mean
in that it was like sixty years later, you know,
so it's an incredible thing, you know that celebrities could
(21:31):
have that kind of like kind of a secret back then.
But he he was crazy about her, and she was
crazy about him as well.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
And she didn't seek out the publicity, which is interesting, I.
Speaker 4 (21:42):
Mean, I the relationship between Jackie and the press more
broadly is interesting because it seems to me, at least
that on one level she enjoyed the attention, but on
another level, she was fiercely private and did not, you know,
often give interviews. And I'm sure that she felt burned after,
you know, being the literal first lady where every move
she made was so meticulously tracked that maybe this was
(22:03):
sort of a response to that. To want to be
more private. But how long did that relationship last.
Speaker 9 (22:08):
Well, it lasted from sixty four to sixty seven. And
then how it ended was that jack warnick. He had
spent a fortune on trying to give Jackie the lifestyle
to which she had long become accustomed, right, And he
was spending money on helicopters, and he rented a house
(22:30):
in Hawaii, and you know, he they went on a
Hawaii vacation and took the kids, and you know, she
had no reason to believe that this was any kind
of a strain on him, because he certainly never showed that.
And then his business started going under because he was
spending so much time with her and he was spending
so much money on her that he ended up about
(22:52):
a million dollars in debt. And so he called her
one day and he said, listen to something that I
got to tell you. You know, I hope it's not
going to change anything between us, but I'm about a
million dollars in debt, and I think you should know that.
And her response to this was oh, right. That's when
she said, oh. And he said, well, I hope this
(23:16):
isn't going to change anything. And she said oh, okay,
I'll get back to you, and she hung up. And
he knew in that moment it had changed. And he
told me he had no idea. He told me that
Aristotle on Nassis was hovering. He said, if I knew
that one of the richest men in the world was
in her midst never would I have ever told her
(23:36):
that I was in debt. But he didn't know. And Jackie,
really she was torn about this because her mom was like, Okay,
well that's the end of him, and her mom loved
jack warnikey, but you know, look, Janet felt like he
had lied to all of them about his finances. She
wasn't concerned about his indebtedness as much as she was
(23:57):
concerned about how did we not know this? And she
told Jackie these famous words, which I think are so great,
would you never hear anymore? You better wake up and
smell the coffee, She told her. You better wake up
and smell the coffee. She said, because if you marry him,
his debt is going to be your debt then, and
you're never going to be able to come out of it.
And so Jackie made the decision reluctantly. I have to say,
(24:19):
but she made the decision that, you know, she was
not going to continue with Jack, and then that's how
she ended up with Onassis. Right. They remain friends, she
and Jack Warnicky all the way to her dead. They
remained very close friends, and around her sixtieth birthday, Jack
Warnikey finally asked her, after all these years, what the
(24:39):
heck were you thinking? Right like? Onasas and I are
about as far apart on the map of romance that
you can ever get. What was it that you saw
in him? And Jackie said to Jack, Oh, Jack, you
know me. I have three lives public, private, and secret,
which is where I got the title the book from.
Speaker 8 (25:01):
So is there any way to know what her like
net worth would have been around that time that a
million dollars would have ruined her?
Speaker 7 (25:12):
It seems to me like she was so wealthy at
that time.
Speaker 9 (25:16):
She was not. That's the thing, you know, she she
was not. She she needed to figure out a way
forward because the Kennedy's had just, you know, they had
not been generous with her. A lot of people think
she had all this Kennedy money. She didn't, you know,
she really did not. And her stepfather, who she loved
(25:37):
very much, Hugh Auchincloss was very wealthy, but he had
already made it very clear that his money was going
to be going to his natural children, not to Jackie
and not to Lee and Jack Bouvier. Her father his
money when he died, it was all there was nothing
there at all. Now Janet had money from her husband, Hugh,
(25:58):
but she did not offer it to Jackie or Lee.
She told both Jackie and Lee, you got to figure
this out, you know, because you've been living this lifestyle
for many, many years. Since you were thirteen years old
and you moved into this house with my husband, you've
been living He's sent you to Europe. You was you know,
you have been abroad, You've been a debutante. You but
you don't have any money, right so you got kids
(26:21):
and you've you've got to figure this out. You're not
going to be able to live off of my money forever.
So yeah, No, a million dollars in debt at that
time was not a thing that Jack That's why jan said,
wake up and small the coffee. You you already don't
have any money now you're going to be in debt,
you know, so people don't know that. And I think
that if people understood that they would better understand why
she ended up with on asses, you know, because it
(26:43):
was survival really, it was like and it was you know,
the mom saying, you know, what are you going to do?
And the pressure of being Jacqueline Kennedy and kind of
feeling like a fake, you know, kind of feeling well,
you know, everybody thinks I'm this particular person, and I
(27:04):
certainly have this image. But when it comes right down
to it, what do I really have? You know, I
don't really have anything, you know. And so yeah, no,
a million dollars would have not been good to be
in debt at that time for Jackie.
Speaker 8 (27:17):
So also, was there any truth to the many many
rumors that we see.
Speaker 7 (27:24):
About her and Bobby.
Speaker 9 (27:26):
Oh no, there's no truth to that at all, you know.
I mean, look, I did a lot of research into
that twenty five years ago when I wrote Jackie, Ethel
and Joan, which was about Jackie and her sisters in law,
Ethel Kennedy and Joan Kennedy, and I did a deep
dive into that, and I could not find any evidence
to support it, not ever. And then, you know, and
(27:46):
it's the kind of thing where you really have to
think that, well, these were real, actual people, and people
you know today we think of them as sort of
cartoon characters in the way we don't think of them
as real people. What would it take for a woman
who who witnessed her husband being murdered, right to then
jump in bed with his brother, right? I mean it's like,
(28:07):
what are you talking about? And what would it take
for a brother who his own brother was just assassinated
to then jump into bed with his sister in law
his brother's wife. Like, these people would never do these things.
So these rumors are just so like they're they're created
by people who don't understand the humanity of the of
(28:28):
the folks were talking about. And if you knew Jackie,
you knew that this would never happen. And Bobby too,
which just never happened. So I still needed to look
into it because you never know, anything's possible, right, But no,
absolutely not.
Speaker 7 (28:47):
Yeah, it's interesting. It's like, on the.
Speaker 8 (28:49):
One hand, that is something that happens, the trauma bonding
and the intimacy that's there and the like desire to
be you know, close with somebody who understands you know.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
But then on the.
Speaker 8 (29:03):
Other hand, it's just so hard to believe that there
would be no evidence, and it's just interesting that it's
still so pervasive like this rumor.
Speaker 9 (29:13):
Well, because it's because it's partially true. They did have
an emotional relationship, and Ethel did feel cut out because
of it. And it's because Jackie was so wounded and
Bobby was so wounded, and Ethel was so strong in
her faith that Bobby couldn't connect on this level because
(29:34):
Ethel's view was, well, jack is in heaven with you know,
with God, and he's in a better place. And for
Jackie and Bobby, that was just not true. For Jackie
and Bobby, they felt like they'd been robbed of somebody
they loved and he was not in a better place.
A better place would be right here, you know. So
Ethel's religion in a sense sort of alienated Bobby during
(29:57):
this period of time, and so he and Jackie felt
alike about these things and that's kind of what bonded them.
So they did have I mean, I would I would
be safe to say they had an emotional affair, but
I would definitely not say that it ever turned physical.
But trauma bonding is a great way of putting it.
I love that you said that, because I maybe I've
(30:18):
never heard that phrase before, you know, but I think
that that's that really does say it.
Speaker 4 (30:38):
So speaking of unsubstantiated rumors, you know, while we have
you here, before we get to Anassis, I mean, there's
all these people, you know, Paul Newman, Warren Badie or
Robert Redford. There's all these you know, big sort of
a less celebrities that were on and off attached to Jackie.
What is your you know what's true and what's false? Well,
most everything is false. But I do like the Warren
(31:01):
Batty of it all because I like the story of
Warren Batty. You know, they went out on a couple
of dates. He was beautiful, she was beautiful. They looked
great together.
Speaker 9 (31:13):
But the problem that they had was that Warren Batty
would not stop talking about himself, and he wouldn't stop
talking about show business and the movies and his life.
And you know, he was at this point in his career.
He was young, and he was all about his career
and all about himself. And I think so many people
could relate to this because when this came out in
(31:34):
my book, I got so much mail from people saying
that happened to me, that happened to me, and what
it is. What happened was he had talked about himself
all night long, and he brought Jackie to her front door,
and just as she was about to go and completely
frustrated about with this date, he said to her, so
how about you? How are you doing? Right? Like, right
(31:56):
before she was getting ready to just walk away from him.
He had talked about himself all night long and then
he was like, oh, you know, we never mentioned you,
how are you doing? You know, she's Jacqueline on Asses.
You'd think he'd be interested, right and he wasn't. And
that was it for him, you know Jackie. Jackie said, well,
you know, you really can't expect much from men these days,
(32:17):
you know, like she she was just like so over
him and so done with him. And that was the
end of Warren Bady.
Speaker 7 (32:24):
What year would that have been.
Speaker 9 (32:26):
I believe that was in the seventies, So it was
after it was after Onassas and before Maurice Temple's mean, yeah,
and so before we get to Onassas, which we should soon.
Speaker 4 (32:38):
It seems like maybe another slightly more serious relationship was
David ormsby Gore right before before slash during maybe onassas
so I forgot about him. Yeah, yeah, it seems like
Jackie did as well at some point. So what was
the story there. I mean, he was he worked for JFK, right,
(32:59):
he did JFK. He was you know, he worked, he
was part of the cabinet. He was crazy about her,
and you know, he made the mistake of telling people
that they were getting married, and they may have talked
about it, and you know in a sort of shadowed
way maybe one day, you.
Speaker 9 (33:19):
Know, you never know. But she was, you know, she
was really lukewarm on him, but you know, he was
nice and he was a connection to JFK and so
she sort of liked being around him. But I mean,
at one point, Lady Bird Johnson got a letter from
somebody saying, did you know that Jackie is getting married
to this guy? And I think that lady were called
Jackie so the congratulations, I understand that you're getting married,
(33:40):
and she was like, what you know? And and that's
that's kind of when ended that relationship, you know, I
mean that I guess he's just like he jumped the
gun and he was so excited about maybe, you know,
I don't know what conversation they had that maybe that
may have given him that impression, but it was definitely
not the right impression.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
And then he pretty.
Speaker 4 (34:00):
Much got engaged to Onassis within a few months of
this relationship ending, right, Yeah, I.
Speaker 9 (34:07):
Mean she was with Onasas within a few months of
Jack Warnikey and David was just a blip. Jack Warnekey
was a more unimportant figure, and after Warnicky was out
of the picture, NASAs started coming around, and you know,
he was charming and Greek and interesting and charismatic, and
he started giving her presents and he wanted to be
(34:28):
there for her, and you know, weirdly enough, he had
been at the White House after JFK's assassination, which blew
me away when I've when I learned about that and
wrote about that. You know, what the heck was he
doing there in the White House? Are you kidding me?
In the days after the assassination, on Nassas was at
the White House. But he had been kind of had
(34:49):
his sights on Jackie for a long time, and when
she was completely available, he sort of made his move.
And Onassis always got pretty much what he want wanted.
That was the way he lived his life and the
next thing, you know, he's with Jackie.
Speaker 4 (35:04):
And you know, to address the elephant in the room,
you know, Jackie, you know, she didn't want to be
cheated on again after JFK. She you know, had this
romance with jack Wernickey was more protective of herself. But then,
of course, famously Onasas was carrying out affairs during their
time together.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
So what was that like.
Speaker 9 (35:21):
Well, the difference is that Jackie wasn't in love with him. Yeah,
so it was hurtful, but it didn't hurt the same
way as JFK did. And she also had the coping
skills in place by that time to know how to
deal with this. And she knew what she was getting
into with Onassis in the sense that you know, she
knew by Maria Kallis and they had a deal on place,
(35:42):
and it was a money deal. And I mean it's
not to say that he wasn't nice to her, and
he was and he and you know, I think in
Jackie Public Private Secret, you get a whole different picture
of Onassis than you've ever gotten before because as he's
becoming more debilitated and he's going back to Hammersmith and
he's with her mom and you start to see a
(36:02):
different side of Onassas than you've ever seen before. And
Janet balking Cross actually grows to love this guy, her
son in law, who she hated at the beginning because
she told him very specifically, you will not come between
my daughters. And of course that's exactly what he did,
you know. But while the one thing I've learned about
people in my books, about the Kennedys is that you know,
(36:25):
we go through changes, changes, we go through right and
just because you feel one way at one point doesn't
mean that's how you're always going to feel. And Janet
and Hugh grew to really love Aristotle Onasses and so
did Jackie, you know, and she was very protective of
him when he was sick, right before he died. And
(36:47):
it's stuff is not black and white. You know. People
ask me all the time, what was Jackie like? What
was Jackie like? And I always say to them, when
exactly are you talking about? Because she's not the same
person in nineteen sixty that she is in nineteen seventy.
I knew Jackie in the nineteen eighties, you know. Jackie
was my first editor at Double Day, and that's when
I knew her, and when I'm sitting across from her
in the nineteen eighties, I could tell right then and
(37:09):
there that she wasn't the same woman that she was
as she was as First Lady in nineteen sixty during
the tour of the White House. Them are like two
different people to me, you know.
Speaker 8 (37:18):
Even the I think about the pictures of her standing
next to JFK and the pictures of her with Onassis,
and it's like, she looks so fashionable in a completely
different way and looks so kind of care free, and
it's just it's very opposite.
Speaker 9 (37:36):
Yeah, I was going to say, you know, she never
wanted to be America's widow. That was her whole thing.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
You know.
Speaker 9 (37:42):
After JFK was dead, she told Teddy White, to whom
she sort of crafted the Camelot mythology the night after
Thanksgiving in nineteen sixty three, when she called Teddy White
to Hayanasport and spun this sort of mythology about Camelot
that he then wrote about and it became it became history.
Told him And it's funny because I just looked at
his notes the other day because I'm working on something
(38:05):
about this, and she said very specifically, and he wrote
it be in his own handwriting, I do not want
to be the widow Kennedy. And she knew that she
was all that America had left of JFK, but she
just did not want that. And so I think that
what you see when you see her with Onassis and
she's glamorous and care free, and what you see is
(38:26):
all of that having been lifted from her. And now
she feels that she can live a life that she
created that maybe people don't understand, but it's hers. She
made it, and it's good. You know, she was not
miserable during the Onasis years.
Speaker 4 (38:41):
I can tell you that speaking of her sort of
evolution throughout the year is one of the things I
found interesting was her evolution in terms of her thoughts
about the roles of men and women. Because when she's
with JFK, you know, there's this she always says, you know,
Jack is always right, like he knows best, like you know,
I defer to him. Then there this middle period where
(39:01):
she's sort of empowered enough to be you know, quote
unquote dating around and it feels like she is making
decisions with her own future in mind and everything.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
And then I.
Speaker 4 (39:11):
Mean one of the things you talk about in the book,
which I did not know before, was that she dated
the director of I think Zorba the Greek Oh yeah,
sort of after Onassa's and when she was considering going
back to work and working as an editor, he didn't
want her to work, but then she defied him, which
is very different than her attitude when she was dating
JFK when she was younger. So I guess if this
(39:33):
is building to any question, it would be you know,
how do you conceive of her evolution in terms of,
if anything, her personal politics or her, for lack of
a better term, relationship to feminism.
Speaker 9 (39:44):
Well, you know, she is really a symbol of growing
feminism in America at that time. I just thought it
was so astonishing that in her oral history, you know,
you hear her say I would never have voted for
someone that Jack didn't vote for like that w never
occurred to It never would occur to me. Jack knew
what was best. I would only vote for who Jack
(40:05):
would vote for. And that's not just Jackie, that was
women at that time. Women didn't you know, women of
that time and place would vote for whoever their husband's
voted for. They didn't do their own research and make
their own decisions about that. They voted for who their
husbands voted for. But then, you know, Jackie was a
product of the you know, the sixties and then the
seventies and feminism and then moving into the eighties, and
(40:29):
just as women all over the country were growing, so
was she until until she got to a point when
she was dating that particular man whose name I do
not remember. I wish, I mean, and I wrote about him.
So maybe you guys can figure that out when you
when you yeah, Michael, Oh yes, okay. So when she
started dating Michael, the problem with him was that he
(40:51):
was very much like on NASA's you know, he was Greek,
and that's what attracted her to him in the first place.
But then she remembered that on didn't want her to
work either. And then this guy was telling her, well,
you know, I don't think he should work, and she
had this great job opportunity and she said, well, I'm
going to take it, and he said, no, I don't
think women should work, and she said, see you right,
(41:13):
that wasn't who she was anymore. She wanted to work,
she wanted to contribute. She didn't need the money by
this time, of course, on Nassas was dead. She was very,
very wealthy. She didn't need the money, she needed the work.
She needed to be someone, and that's what she did.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
Well.
Speaker 4 (41:31):
I want to be conscious of your time, and also
my internet seems to be going in and out, so Lyra,
please feel free to take over if you have any
final questions.
Speaker 8 (41:38):
Okay, yeah, well I do have one.
Speaker 7 (41:41):
She made out with Robert Redford?
Speaker 1 (41:43):
Yes she did.
Speaker 9 (41:45):
Yes, I mean, I can't believe you remember that she did.
She made out with Robert Redford. But I was along
the lines of who wouldn't.
Speaker 7 (41:53):
I know, That's why I have to bring it.
Speaker 9 (41:56):
Up, you know, who wouldn't I mean? But at that time,
in the nineteen late seventies, you know, Robert Redford was
doing The Great Gatsby and they were filming it at Hammersmith,
which is where Jackie grew up. And they ran into
each other, and if I recall from what I wrote,
you know, they've snuck off and they started making out
like behind some rocks, like high school kids, and Jackie
(42:18):
was like, he's Robert Redford, I mean, come on, and
he was like she's Jackie, Oh, are you kidding? Me, right,
And I love that story because it's very human. But
that's as far as it went. You know, there was
nothing else. It was just that. And if it wasn't
for the fact that it was Jackie and Robert Redford,
we wouldn't even care, you know, But yet that did happen.
Speaker 8 (42:39):
Yeah, I'm very interested in your process of writing this book,
Like there's so many fully realized scenes, I would say,
with intimate conversations, and just how do you get there
from research and interviews?
Speaker 7 (42:54):
What's your process?
Speaker 9 (42:56):
The way I get there is that I am unrelenting
with my sources. With somebody like Jack Warnerkey, I talked
to him so many times, and I would call him
as I do Jamie Auchinclaus, Jackie's half brother, and I
would say, what is it that you said exactly? Like
I need to know exactly what happened? You know, people
(43:19):
are used to telling stories and broad strokes. Well, then
you know, she came over and then we went out,
and then after about two hours I brought her back home.
I want to know about those two hours, right, what
exactly did you say? What does she say? And this
drives my sources crazy, you know, I just interviewed Marilyn
Monroe's best friend and publishist Pat Newcomb for my JFK
(43:42):
Public Private Secret book that just came out, and Pat
Newcomb said something to me that really made me laugh.
She said, I have to tell you, I don't spend
a lot of time thinking about what my friends did
sixty five years ago, right, But I told her, if
your friend is Marilyn Monroe, I think it's a little
bit different. I think you can probably remember some of
(44:04):
these moments, you know. And she did and she did.
And to answer your question, that's how I do it.
Speaker 8 (44:10):
You know.
Speaker 9 (44:11):
I reconstruct conversations based on what the people who are
having the conversations told me they said and what they
what the responses were to me. It's more interesting to
do it that way than just have jack Warnicky quoted
as saying, I told Jackie this, and Jackie told me that.
Then I told Jackie this, and Jackie told me that.
I actually wanted to be able to reconstruct that to
(44:31):
bring the reader into their world. And that's what I do.
Speaker 7 (44:35):
It's great.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
Thank you so much, Yeah, thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (44:38):
Was this was really great? And again the book we
read is Jackie Public Private Secret, but the new one
that is coming out that I think will be out
by the time by the time this episode airs is
JFK public Private Secret. Yes, thank you guys, I really
appreciate it. I had a good time talking to you.
Speaker 9 (44:55):
Thanks so much.
Speaker 7 (44:56):
So that's it for this week's episode.
Speaker 4 (44:58):
Next week we're talking about the Goternet's on and off
boyfriend Jack Schlosberg.
Speaker 8 (45:03):
So subscribe and follow United States of Kennedy for all
things Kennedy every week.
Okay, mom, what do you think when I say Jackie O.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
First of all, she was extremely popular in Greece when
she was the first Lady because she came to Greece
in a like unofficial official visit when her husband was
the president.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
That made her extremely popular in Greece.
Speaker 4 (00:26):
So after Kennedy was assassinated and she started seeing Onassis
or what was the public's.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
Response to that, Well, I don't know.
Speaker 5 (00:36):
I mean, it wasn't so much Jackie as you know,
on Nasis the people hated because he had this affair
with Maria Callas, the opera singers, and then all of
a sudden.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
He abandoned her essentially to have you know, another German
his collection. So have you know, married the widow of
the US president and you know, let didn't go well
with a grief Well concerning.
Speaker 6 (01:01):
Her, I mean, okay, it was a business agreement in
a way. She was looking for security, both financial and
physical security for herself and her children, and he wanted
to get the ultimate status symbol what was the wood
of the US President.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
So she wasn't very popular at the time. But it's
not like they hated her or anything.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
It was more Nazis, but you know they criticized.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
I'm George Severies, I'm Lara Smith, and this is United
States of Kennedy, a podcast about our cultural fascination with
the Kennedy dynasty. Each week we go into one aspect
of the Kennedy story, and today we are talking about
Jackie O's dating life.
Speaker 7 (01:53):
And the thing is, she had such an evolution in
her life.
Speaker 8 (01:57):
Her approach towards romance and sex was heavily influenced by
her parents, but the insanity of her life constantly shook
that foundation in really surprising ways.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
Yeah, and her relationship to the public really affected her
private life in a way that very few women in
history have experienced, and mostly in that she just didn't
have a private life anymore.
Speaker 8 (02:18):
Jackie had a few notable relationships in the years after
JFK's assassination. First with Jack Warnike, an architect who worked
with her on preserving Lafayette Square in DC and also
designed JFK's memorial, the Eternal Flame in Arlington National Cemetery.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
Then there was David ormsby Gore, a British diplomat and
friend of the family really who spent a lot of
time in the White House during Kennedy's presidency, and of
course aristotle Onassis, Greek shipping magnet, one of the world's
wealthiest men in the twentieth century, and Jackie's sister's boyfriend.
Speaker 8 (02:54):
So today we are talking to Jay Randy Terra Borelli.
He's the author of Jackie Public Private Secret, which is
a relentlessly researched biography of Jackie Easier to discuss her
most interesting relationships with dating and family. Randy thinks, so
much for joining.
Speaker 9 (03:12):
Us, I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 8 (03:14):
So this episode is primarily about Jackie's dating life, her
romantic life. And to start, really we wanted to ask
what was her parents' relationship.
Speaker 9 (03:26):
Like, well, her parents' relationship Janet, Janet, Lee and Jack Bouvier. Well,
it wasn't good and it very much became sort of
the template for both Janet and Jackie and Lee as
to what not to do and what not to accept.
(03:49):
The problem with Jack Bouvier was that, you know, he
was chronically unfaithful to his wife Janet, and she kept
going back to him despite that, and it made Janet
feel very weak. And Janet said, weakness is something that
you inherit she said, my mother inherited it from her mother.
(04:12):
I inherited it from my mother, and she said, and
I'll be damned if Jackie and Lee inherited from me.
And she said, I will not raise weak daughters.
Speaker 7 (04:22):
Period.
Speaker 9 (04:23):
So the eye was always watching for this strain of infidelity.
And that's why it's so ironic that Jackie ended up
with JFK. Because he was chronically unfaithful in the same
way that her father was chronically unfaithful to her mother.
But I will say that they didn't go into the
marriage blindly. They knew what they were getting into. They
(04:44):
made a decision as mother and daughter. They made a decision,
you know that Look, he's got money, and he's got power,
and he's a senator. He's probably going to be a president.
He'll probably cheat, but let's he doesn't and let's take
a chance. And that decision, you know, was a faithful decision,
(05:06):
and it was one that Janet regretted very much. She
very much regretted I don't want to say forcing her
daughter into the marriage, but encouraging her daughter into that marriage,
because when JFK was unfaithful to Jackie was very hurtful,
and Janet, the mom, blamed herself.
Speaker 8 (05:26):
Something that I find really interesting in the conversation that
Janet and Jackie had and the choices that Jackie made
with all the information that she had, is that I
think we get presented this idea that at that point
in time, every woman just had to accept that every
(05:48):
man was going to cheat, and she was a doting
housewife at heart, and that's kind of the image that
she did resent as first Lady because it felt like
at first, it seems like she felt like that was
what was needed or desired for the role.
Speaker 7 (06:09):
But it's just so interesting to read.
Speaker 8 (06:11):
About how many times Jackie made the decision to stay
and it was an educated decision and had all the
information up front, and it wasn't a huge shock to her.
You know that he was having affairs, and it was
more so like the nature of the affairs or the
specifics of the person that were the issue a lot
(06:32):
of times.
Speaker 9 (06:33):
Well, I think that what you're saying is very true.
And the follow up to Jackie Public Private Secret, which
is my present book JFK. Public Private Secret, I go
into that a little bit more, and it's interesting the
bargains we sometimes make with ourselves in order to move
forward with our lives and Jackie went from this does
(06:55):
not happen to me, too, well, this does happen to me,
but only because I allow. And you know, originally, when
she first found out that JFK was cheating on her,
she was like, no, this doesn't happen to me. And
you know, she was ready to file for divorce, and
she met with attorneys and they they were moving forward
(07:15):
with the possibility of a divorce, and ultimately that didn't happen,
and Jackie accepted a financial payment from JFK's father to
stay in the marriage, which you know, a lot of
people have a dim view of, but I kind of
don't I think she I think she earned it, you know,
I mean, I just I think that it was an
(07:36):
empowering decision for her to, you know, make that deal
because she knew that she wasn't going to be able
to divorce this man. She knew that she was not
going to be able to go up against the Kennedy machinery.
It just it just wasn't going to happen, you know.
So she made a choice and she did accept, you know,
a nice payment to stay in the marriage. But then
(07:57):
you know, she learned another lesson which is that money
doesn't buy happiness, you know. And that was a hard
lesson for her because she and her sister Lee were
taught from a very early age by their mother that
the secret to happily ever after is money and power.
That's what they were taught. Come to find out it
wasn't quite true. It's funny there's so much talk of
(08:19):
weakness and strength in their family. I mean, it really
is like an undercurrent throughout the book. And there's a
way in which they talk about kind of the day
to day of dating and marriage as though every day
you're going to war, Like there's something very intense about
like every day you get up and you make do
with what you have and you win, you know. And
(08:39):
I was actually thinking, I mean, this is sort of
a tangent, but I was thinking this sort of contributes
to Jackie's reputation as like a survivor. And I think
also we were talking the other day about what makes
her kind of like a gay icon, and I think
that's a big part of it, is just like this
sort of like even when the cards are stacked against her,
like she comes out on top.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
But speaking of Lee, just before we move on, I
wanted to ask for anyone who might not know or
who might.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Not have read about the book.
Speaker 4 (09:06):
Like, one of the big things we talked about is
that Lee was originally the one JFK was interested in,
and there was a very conscious decision made sort of
collaboratively between Jackie and her mother that Jackie would be
the one to pursue him. So can you talk just
a little bit about the logistics of how that happened. Well,
that's something that surprised me in the research of my book.
(09:26):
You know that that decision had been made, and it
made me feel, you know, badly for Lee because she's
always in her sister's shadow. And later on, you know,
Jackie gets on Nassas too, who was also Lee's first
This is to say that JFK and Lee had a
big affair, as Leon on NASAs did. I mean Lee
and on NASAs were actually in love. Lee I just
(09:47):
met JFK and she was only nineteen years old. He
was in his thirties, and they had nice a little
bit of a flirtation, but then they didn't even go out.
He was getting ready to call her to ask her
out on a date, and when the mom found out
about it, Janet. She was like, hm, that's interesting, you know,
(10:07):
and then she put this together in her head. Jackie
is I think she was about twenty four years old,
maybe twenty three. Lee was nineteen, and Janet's decision was
that Jackie needed to get settled. That's what they called
it back then, getting settled, meaning you need to get
married and get settled. And if you weren't settled by
twenty three, that was not going to bode well for
(10:30):
you in society. And so Janet's decision was to let
Jackie have JFK.
Speaker 9 (10:38):
And she told Lee, look, you'll get the next guy, right,
but this one has to be your sisters, because she
needs to be settled. They had no idea, you know,
what this was going to turn into, you know, they
had no idea whether this was going to be a
happy marriage or and certainly no idea that Jackie was
going to end up first lady. They were just Jane
(10:59):
was just trying to get herself, you know, and and
so that's what happened. You know, Janet encouraged Jackie. You
might want to say Janet made Jackie, you know, start
going out with JFK to see, you know, if that
could actually happen, and ultimately it did, and Lee ended
up on the having sort of the short end of
the stick that in that respect.
Speaker 7 (11:20):
But the crazy part about that is that Jackie was engaged.
Speaker 9 (11:23):
Yes, well you know, that is the crazy part, except
for the fact that they found out that the guy
that she was engaged to didn't have as much money
as Janet thought he had. And once that was determined,
then Janet was like, well, he's not for you. And
Jackie wasn't that crazy about the guy anyway, you know,
the only reason that he was in the picture was
because they thought he was wealthier than he was. But
(11:47):
there it wasn't like Jackie was, you know, absolutely wild
about him. It's funny thing because I actually, can you
believe it. I actually interviewed that guy Wow, like about
twenty five years ago, you know, and he said, you
know that there was not a big spark between them,
but there wasn't between Jackie and JFK either, you know,
And when Jackie and JFK started going out, it was
(12:08):
it wasn't you know, it's fine, it was okay, you know,
but today they would be considered to have a lack
of chemistry. You know, today if they were going out,
they would probably take a look at the situation and decide, well,
this is we're not right for each other and there's
no chemistry between us, so let's just move on, you know.
(12:29):
But back then that wasn't so much the case. Back
then they both really had a strong motivation to make
this thing work, and so they just continued sort of,
you know, like like you say, you know, every day
is a battle to be won, you know, let's just
figure out a way forward and get to the victory.
And and that's what they did.
Speaker 8 (12:50):
And it seems like Jackie, though, did have chemistry with
other people. She had had like exciting romantic experience instances
before she met JFK. And you know, aside from Jack
Houston that she was like not crazy about. But were
there any like specific instances when she was you know,
(13:12):
pre JFK that she was actually like excited and.
Speaker 9 (13:17):
Well, you know, well there were a few moments, but
there were there weren't a lot.
Speaker 8 (13:21):
You know.
Speaker 9 (13:21):
I actually always thought that she and Yusha Archinclaus, who
would have been great together. Unfortunately he was her step brother,
so that didn't work. But they were crazy about each other,
you know, and they went to Europe together and they
just you know, and he gave her her first kiss.
(13:42):
I interviewed him, and he was still crazy about her,
even in his old age, and kind of a little
bit regretful, you know, that they that they could not
be together because had it not been for the fact
that her mom married his father, you know, they might
have ended up together. You know, but jack he had
a few experiences. I mean, she lost her virginity and
(14:03):
an elevator in Paris. I think, you know, I don't
know that doubt was exactly passionate as much as it
was interesting.
Speaker 7 (14:11):
Right, what's the story to that?
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Yeah, what's the story there?
Speaker 9 (14:16):
Well, the story there's a better there's a bigger story
than what happened. I mean, what happened was she met
this guy. I can't remember his name right now, but
it's in my book, and you know, they hit it
off and they ended up having sex at an elevator,
which was she was a virgin. So this was like huge,
But that's fine. That's not what interested me, to be
(14:36):
honest with you. What interested me was what happened after that,
which was Jackie made Lee promise not to tell their mother, Janet,
Please don't tell mommy about this, and Lee promised, and
then in order to curry favor with the mom, Lee
went and told her, you know, and Jackie was so
(14:57):
upset and felt so betrayed to me, really said everything
you need to know about this, sister Lee dynamic. You
know that, in truth, had the tables been reversed, Jackie
might have done the same thing, because they would they
would do anything that they could think of to be
in the mom's favor. And what better thing could Lee
do it? And to tell her mother this? Right? So
(15:19):
that's a story from my book Jackie, Janet and Lee,
you know, which was about the mom and the two daughters.
But I always thought that that was a really interesting story.
Speaker 4 (15:45):
I'm trying to remember where if this was in the
book or if you said it in an interview somewhere,
but this idea that towards the end of her life,
someone asked Lee, are you happy?
Speaker 1 (15:54):
And she said, I'm almost happy? Was that the right quote?
Speaker 9 (15:57):
Yeah, that's it. I can't believe that you remember that,
because that's you know that that actually was me.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
It was, yes, there you go, it was me, you know.
Speaker 9 (16:06):
And the last time I saw her, because I really
I liked her so much, and she had been had
such a hard life, and I remember asking her. She
looked like she was okay, But there was always a
sadness about Lee that and I don't really know sometimes
if it was that she sort of relayed this sadness,
(16:26):
or was it that we know so much about her
sadness that we sort of made her sad in our minds?
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 9 (16:35):
Whenever I saw her, I felt like there was sadness
there and I asked her, I said, Lee, you know,
are you happy? Are you happy? Now? You know? She
thought about it and she said, well, I'm almost happy.
I thought, Wow, I just don't even know what to
make of that. I had never heard that before, and
(16:55):
that made me sad. So here we go, right, we
went right back to sadness. You know, I don't know
that she was particularly sad in that moment, but I
know I was.
Speaker 8 (17:05):
I mean, they both lost their sons, like in a
really close period of time, right, I mean, they had
such parallels in their lives, even beyond just being sisters
and the type of men that they were with in
their life.
Speaker 9 (17:19):
And the mom you know, I mean them and they
were very different too. They were so different in the
sense that Lee was okay with infidelity. It's like Lee
took after the father and Jackie took after the mom.
The mother was not okay with infidelity, you know, and
she and JFK were longerheads about this throughout their entire relationship.
(17:42):
Jana loved JFK, but she did not love some of
those moments with her daughter. And Janet used to say
of JFK, so many women, so little sense, right. But
Lee cheated on her husband, both of them, you know,
And she cheated on Stass with Onassis, and everybody was
(18:07):
in the family was like, oh my god, because Jackie
never would have done that. Jackie did not. She didn't
she never cheated, and you know, everybody in the family
was like, well, how could Lee do this knowing how
her mom feels about it and how Jackie feels about it.
How is because Lee took after her father, who also
did it, and Lee at one point, you know, when
(18:28):
Jackie confided in Lee that she believed that JFK was
cheating on her and she was thinking about divorcing him,
Lee said, why are you making such a big deal
about this? You know, daddy cheated on mommy and it
all worked out just fine. And Jackie's response to that
was for who right for who? So they were very
(18:50):
different in that respect.
Speaker 4 (18:51):
So Jackie, you know, dealt with the sort of day
to day cumuliations of JFK's cheating and of rumors that
weren't even true. I mean, I was of surprise to
learn that the Marilyn affair was basically like a one
time or a one weekend thing. I mean, some of
these things were also sort of blown up in the media.
But after JFK died, Jackie was still young. She was
(19:13):
sort of, you know, one of the most famous women
in the world, and what was her dating life like
kind of between JFK and on Nassis, like, who were
the major figures?
Speaker 9 (19:22):
Well, to answer your question, there was one major figure,
and that was Jack Warnike, the architect, who I had
the great pleasure of knowing, and he was such a
great guy, and he designed JFK's memorial at Arlington. In
about six months after JFK was gone, he and Jackie
(19:43):
started dating. And it was difficult for her at first
because she was in such grief over jack and she
was suffering for such PTSD. But she really wanted to
get on with her life, and he really wanted to
be the one, you know, and as I wrote in
the book, it was it was a complicated relationship, but
he I believe from what he told me, from knowing him,
(20:06):
that he really loved her, and I think she really
loved him too. He was such a good man, and
he was sturdy. He knew JFK. He had worked with
JFK on Lafayette Park, so they had that history together,
and he was a good guy and they what's astonishing
about it is that they were He asked her to
marry him.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
She agreed.
Speaker 9 (20:28):
So you're thinking about Jackie Kennedy being arguably the most
famous woman in the world at that time. We're talking
about sixty five, sixty six, sixty seven who was more
famous than Jackie Kennedy. Yet how did we not know
about this guy? You know? That's the thing that really
I mean. I asked jack I said, how did all
this happen? And nobody knew about it? And he said,
(20:49):
back then, you didn't talk about it. Nobody knew about it.
You know, today, if the most famous woman in the
world was engaged to somebody, you would definitely know about it,
you know. I don't know who that would be. You know,
who's the most famous woman in the world is right now?
I don't know, but you know, certainly it's whoever that
is if she was engaged to be married, it would
(21:11):
be on TMZ right. And Jackie was able to keep
this private. No one knew about to be honest with you,
no one knew about it until I wrote about it, right,
and jackie public private secret. You know that's I mean
in that it was like sixty years later, you know,
so it's an incredible thing, you know that celebrities could
(21:31):
have that kind of like kind of a secret back then.
But he he was crazy about her, and she was
crazy about him as well.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
And she didn't seek out the publicity, which is interesting, I.
Speaker 4 (21:42):
Mean, I the relationship between Jackie and the press more
broadly is interesting because it seems to me, at least
that on one level she enjoyed the attention, but on
another level, she was fiercely private and did not, you know,
often give interviews. And I'm sure that she felt burned after,
you know, being the literal first lady where every move
she made was so meticulously tracked that maybe this was
(22:03):
sort of a response to that. To want to be
more private. But how long did that relationship last.
Speaker 9 (22:08):
Well, it lasted from sixty four to sixty seven. And
then how it ended was that jack warnick. He had
spent a fortune on trying to give Jackie the lifestyle
to which she had long become accustomed, right, And he
was spending money on helicopters, and he rented a house
(22:30):
in Hawaii, and you know, he they went on a
Hawaii vacation and took the kids, and you know, she
had no reason to believe that this was any kind
of a strain on him, because he certainly never showed that.
And then his business started going under because he was
spending so much time with her and he was spending
so much money on her that he ended up about
(22:52):
a million dollars in debt. And so he called her
one day and he said, listen to something that I
got to tell you. You know, I hope it's not
going to change anything between us, but I'm about a
million dollars in debt, and I think you should know that.
And her response to this was oh, right. That's when
she said, oh. And he said, well, I hope this
(23:16):
isn't going to change anything. And she said oh, okay,
I'll get back to you, and she hung up. And
he knew in that moment it had changed. And he
told me he had no idea. He told me that
Aristotle on Nassis was hovering. He said, if I knew
that one of the richest men in the world was
in her midst never would I have ever told her
(23:36):
that I was in debt. But he didn't know. And Jackie,
really she was torn about this because her mom was like, Okay,
well that's the end of him, and her mom loved
jack warnikey, but you know, look, Janet felt like he
had lied to all of them about his finances. She
wasn't concerned about his indebtedness as much as she was
(23:57):
concerned about how did we not know this? And she
told Jackie these famous words, which I think are so great,
would you never hear anymore? You better wake up and
smell the coffee, She told her. You better wake up
and smell the coffee. She said, because if you marry him,
his debt is going to be your debt then, and
you're never going to be able to come out of it.
And so Jackie made the decision reluctantly. I have to say,
(24:19):
but she made the decision that, you know, she was
not going to continue with Jack, and then that's how
she ended up with Onassis. Right. They remain friends, she
and Jack Warnicky all the way to her dead. They
remained very close friends, and around her sixtieth birthday, Jack
Warnikey finally asked her, after all these years, what the
(24:39):
heck were you thinking? Right like? Onasas and I are
about as far apart on the map of romance that
you can ever get. What was it that you saw
in him? And Jackie said to Jack, Oh, Jack, you
know me. I have three lives public, private, and secret,
which is where I got the title the book from.
Speaker 8 (25:01):
So is there any way to know what her like
net worth would have been around that time that a
million dollars would have ruined her?
Speaker 7 (25:12):
It seems to me like she was so wealthy at
that time.
Speaker 9 (25:16):
She was not. That's the thing, you know, she she
was not. She she needed to figure out a way
forward because the Kennedy's had just, you know, they had
not been generous with her. A lot of people think
she had all this Kennedy money. She didn't, you know,
she really did not. And her stepfather, who she loved
(25:37):
very much, Hugh Auchincloss was very wealthy, but he had
already made it very clear that his money was going
to be going to his natural children, not to Jackie
and not to Lee and Jack Bouvier. Her father his
money when he died, it was all there was nothing
there at all. Now Janet had money from her husband, Hugh,
(25:58):
but she did not offer it to Jackie or Lee.
She told both Jackie and Lee, you got to figure
this out, you know, because you've been living this lifestyle
for many, many years. Since you were thirteen years old
and you moved into this house with my husband, you've
been living He's sent you to Europe. You was you know,
you have been abroad, You've been a debutante. You but
you don't have any money, right so you got kids
(26:21):
and you've you've got to figure this out. You're not
going to be able to live off of my money forever.
So yeah, No, a million dollars in debt at that
time was not a thing that Jack That's why jan said,
wake up and small the coffee. You you already don't
have any money now you're going to be in debt,
you know, so people don't know that. And I think
that if people understood that they would better understand why
she ended up with on asses, you know, because it
(26:43):
was survival really, it was like and it was you know,
the mom saying, you know, what are you going to do?
And the pressure of being Jacqueline Kennedy and kind of
feeling like a fake, you know, kind of feeling well,
you know, everybody thinks I'm this particular person, and I
(27:04):
certainly have this image. But when it comes right down
to it, what do I really have? You know, I
don't really have anything, you know. And so yeah, no,
a million dollars would have not been good to be
in debt at that time for Jackie.
Speaker 8 (27:17):
So also, was there any truth to the many many
rumors that we see.
Speaker 7 (27:24):
About her and Bobby.
Speaker 9 (27:26):
Oh no, there's no truth to that at all, you know.
I mean, look, I did a lot of research into
that twenty five years ago when I wrote Jackie, Ethel
and Joan, which was about Jackie and her sisters in law,
Ethel Kennedy and Joan Kennedy, and I did a deep
dive into that, and I could not find any evidence
to support it, not ever. And then, you know, and
(27:46):
it's the kind of thing where you really have to
think that, well, these were real, actual people, and people
you know today we think of them as sort of
cartoon characters in the way we don't think of them
as real people. What would it take for a woman
who who witnessed her husband being murdered, right to then
jump in bed with his brother, right? I mean it's like,
(28:07):
what are you talking about? And what would it take
for a brother who his own brother was just assassinated
to then jump into bed with his sister in law
his brother's wife. Like, these people would never do these things.
So these rumors are just so like they're they're created
by people who don't understand the humanity of the of
(28:28):
the folks were talking about. And if you knew Jackie,
you knew that this would never happen. And Bobby too,
which just never happened. So I still needed to look
into it because you never know, anything's possible, right, But no,
absolutely not.
Speaker 7 (28:47):
Yeah, it's interesting. It's like, on the.
Speaker 8 (28:49):
One hand, that is something that happens, the trauma bonding
and the intimacy that's there and the like desire to
be you know, close with somebody who understands you know.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
But then on the.
Speaker 8 (29:03):
Other hand, it's just so hard to believe that there
would be no evidence, and it's just interesting that it's
still so pervasive like this rumor.
Speaker 9 (29:13):
Well, because it's because it's partially true. They did have
an emotional relationship, and Ethel did feel cut out because
of it. And it's because Jackie was so wounded and
Bobby was so wounded, and Ethel was so strong in
her faith that Bobby couldn't connect on this level because
(29:34):
Ethel's view was, well, jack is in heaven with you know,
with God, and he's in a better place. And for
Jackie and Bobby, that was just not true. For Jackie
and Bobby, they felt like they'd been robbed of somebody
they loved and he was not in a better place.
A better place would be right here, you know. So
Ethel's religion in a sense sort of alienated Bobby during
(29:57):
this period of time, and so he and Jackie felt
alike about these things and that's kind of what bonded them.
So they did have I mean, I would I would
be safe to say they had an emotional affair, but
I would definitely not say that it ever turned physical.
But trauma bonding is a great way of putting it.
I love that you said that, because I maybe I've
(30:18):
never heard that phrase before, you know, but I think
that that's that really does say it.
Speaker 4 (30:38):
So speaking of unsubstantiated rumors, you know, while we have
you here, before we get to Anassis, I mean, there's
all these people, you know, Paul Newman, Warren Badie or
Robert Redford. There's all these you know, big sort of
a less celebrities that were on and off attached to Jackie.
What is your you know what's true and what's false? Well,
most everything is false. But I do like the Warren
(31:01):
Batty of it all because I like the story of
Warren Batty. You know, they went out on a couple
of dates. He was beautiful, she was beautiful. They looked
great together.
Speaker 9 (31:13):
But the problem that they had was that Warren Batty
would not stop talking about himself, and he wouldn't stop
talking about show business and the movies and his life.
And you know, he was at this point in his career.
He was young, and he was all about his career
and all about himself. And I think so many people
could relate to this because when this came out in
(31:34):
my book, I got so much mail from people saying
that happened to me, that happened to me, and what
it is. What happened was he had talked about himself
all night long, and he brought Jackie to her front door,
and just as she was about to go and completely
frustrated about with this date, he said to her, so
how about you? How are you doing? Right? Like, right
(31:56):
before she was getting ready to just walk away from him.
He had talked about himself all night long and then
he was like, oh, you know, we never mentioned you,
how are you doing? You know, she's Jacqueline on Asses.
You'd think he'd be interested, right and he wasn't. And
that was it for him, you know Jackie. Jackie said, well,
you know, you really can't expect much from men these days,
(32:17):
you know, like she she was just like so over
him and so done with him. And that was the
end of Warren Bady.
Speaker 7 (32:24):
What year would that have been.
Speaker 9 (32:26):
I believe that was in the seventies, So it was
after it was after Onassas and before Maurice Temple's mean, yeah,
and so before we get to Onassas, which we should soon.
Speaker 4 (32:38):
It seems like maybe another slightly more serious relationship was
David ormsby Gore right before before slash during maybe onassas
so I forgot about him. Yeah, yeah, it seems like
Jackie did as well at some point. So what was
the story there. I mean, he was he worked for JFK, right,
(32:59):
he did JFK. He was you know, he worked, he
was part of the cabinet. He was crazy about her,
and you know, he made the mistake of telling people
that they were getting married, and they may have talked
about it, and you know in a sort of shadowed
way maybe one day, you.
Speaker 9 (33:19):
Know, you never know. But she was, you know, she
was really lukewarm on him, but you know, he was
nice and he was a connection to JFK and so
she sort of liked being around him. But I mean,
at one point, Lady Bird Johnson got a letter from
somebody saying, did you know that Jackie is getting married
to this guy? And I think that lady were called
Jackie so the congratulations, I understand that you're getting married,
(33:40):
and she was like, what you know? And and that's
that's kind of when ended that relationship, you know, I
mean that I guess he's just like he jumped the
gun and he was so excited about maybe, you know,
I don't know what conversation they had that maybe that
may have given him that impression, but it was definitely
not the right impression.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
And then he pretty.
Speaker 4 (34:00):
Much got engaged to Onassis within a few months of
this relationship ending, right, Yeah, I.
Speaker 9 (34:07):
Mean she was with Onasas within a few months of
Jack Warnikey and David was just a blip. Jack Warnekey
was a more unimportant figure, and after Warnicky was out
of the picture, NASAs started coming around, and you know,
he was charming and Greek and interesting and charismatic, and
he started giving her presents and he wanted to be
(34:28):
there for her, and you know, weirdly enough, he had
been at the White House after JFK's assassination, which blew
me away when I've when I learned about that and
wrote about that. You know, what the heck was he
doing there in the White House? Are you kidding me?
In the days after the assassination, on Nassas was at
the White House. But he had been kind of had
(34:49):
his sights on Jackie for a long time, and when
she was completely available, he sort of made his move.
And Onassis always got pretty much what he want wanted.
That was the way he lived his life and the
next thing, you know, he's with Jackie.
Speaker 4 (35:04):
And you know, to address the elephant in the room,
you know, Jackie, you know, she didn't want to be
cheated on again after JFK. She you know, had this
romance with jack Wernickey was more protective of herself. But then,
of course, famously Onasas was carrying out affairs during their
time together.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
So what was that like.
Speaker 9 (35:21):
Well, the difference is that Jackie wasn't in love with him. Yeah,
so it was hurtful, but it didn't hurt the same
way as JFK did. And she also had the coping
skills in place by that time to know how to
deal with this. And she knew what she was getting
into with Onassis in the sense that you know, she
knew by Maria Kallis and they had a deal on place,
(35:42):
and it was a money deal. And I mean it's
not to say that he wasn't nice to her, and
he was and he and you know, I think in
Jackie Public Private Secret, you get a whole different picture
of Onassis than you've ever gotten before because as he's
becoming more debilitated and he's going back to Hammersmith and
he's with her mom and you start to see a
(36:02):
different side of Onassas than you've ever seen before. And
Janet balking Cross actually grows to love this guy, her
son in law, who she hated at the beginning because
she told him very specifically, you will not come between
my daughters. And of course that's exactly what he did,
you know. But while the one thing I've learned about
people in my books, about the Kennedys is that you know,
(36:25):
we go through changes, changes, we go through right and
just because you feel one way at one point doesn't
mean that's how you're always going to feel. And Janet
and Hugh grew to really love Aristotle Onasses and so
did Jackie, you know, and she was very protective of
him when he was sick, right before he died. And
(36:47):
it's stuff is not black and white. You know. People
ask me all the time, what was Jackie like? What
was Jackie like? And I always say to them, when
exactly are you talking about? Because she's not the same
person in nineteen sixty that she is in nineteen seventy.
I knew Jackie in the nineteen eighties, you know. Jackie
was my first editor at Double Day, and that's when
I knew her, and when I'm sitting across from her
in the nineteen eighties, I could tell right then and
(37:09):
there that she wasn't the same woman that she was
as she was as First Lady in nineteen sixty during
the tour of the White House. Them are like two
different people to me, you know.
Speaker 8 (37:18):
Even the I think about the pictures of her standing
next to JFK and the pictures of her with Onassis,
and it's like, she looks so fashionable in a completely
different way and looks so kind of care free, and
it's just it's very opposite.
Speaker 9 (37:36):
Yeah, I was going to say, you know, she never
wanted to be America's widow. That was her whole thing.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
You know.
Speaker 9 (37:42):
After JFK was dead, she told Teddy White, to whom
she sort of crafted the Camelot mythology the night after
Thanksgiving in nineteen sixty three, when she called Teddy White
to Hayanasport and spun this sort of mythology about Camelot
that he then wrote about and it became it became history.
Told him And it's funny because I just looked at
his notes the other day because I'm working on something
(38:05):
about this, and she said very specifically, and he wrote
it be in his own handwriting, I do not want
to be the widow Kennedy. And she knew that she
was all that America had left of JFK, but she
just did not want that. And so I think that
what you see when you see her with Onassis and
she's glamorous and care free, and what you see is
(38:26):
all of that having been lifted from her. And now
she feels that she can live a life that she
created that maybe people don't understand, but it's hers. She
made it, and it's good. You know, she was not
miserable during the Onasis years.
Speaker 4 (38:41):
I can tell you that speaking of her sort of
evolution throughout the year is one of the things I
found interesting was her evolution in terms of her thoughts
about the roles of men and women. Because when she's
with JFK, you know, there's this she always says, you know,
Jack is always right, like he knows best, like you know,
I defer to him. Then there this middle period where
(39:01):
she's sort of empowered enough to be you know, quote
unquote dating around and it feels like she is making
decisions with her own future in mind and everything.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
And then I.
Speaker 4 (39:11):
Mean one of the things you talk about in the book,
which I did not know before, was that she dated
the director of I think Zorba the Greek Oh yeah,
sort of after Onassa's and when she was considering going
back to work and working as an editor, he didn't
want her to work, but then she defied him, which
is very different than her attitude when she was dating
JFK when she was younger. So I guess if this
(39:33):
is building to any question, it would be you know,
how do you conceive of her evolution in terms of,
if anything, her personal politics or her, for lack of
a better term, relationship to feminism.
Speaker 9 (39:44):
Well, you know, she is really a symbol of growing
feminism in America at that time. I just thought it
was so astonishing that in her oral history, you know,
you hear her say I would never have voted for
someone that Jack didn't vote for like that w never
occurred to It never would occur to me. Jack knew
what was best. I would only vote for who Jack
(40:05):
would vote for. And that's not just Jackie, that was
women at that time. Women didn't you know, women of
that time and place would vote for whoever their husband's
voted for. They didn't do their own research and make
their own decisions about that. They voted for who their
husbands voted for. But then, you know, Jackie was a
product of the you know, the sixties and then the
seventies and feminism and then moving into the eighties, and
(40:29):
just as women all over the country were growing, so
was she until until she got to a point when
she was dating that particular man whose name I do
not remember. I wish, I mean, and I wrote about him.
So maybe you guys can figure that out when you
when you yeah, Michael, Oh yes, okay. So when she
started dating Michael, the problem with him was that he
(40:51):
was very much like on NASA's you know, he was Greek,
and that's what attracted her to him in the first place.
But then she remembered that on didn't want her to
work either. And then this guy was telling her, well,
you know, I don't think he should work, and she
had this great job opportunity and she said, well, I'm
going to take it, and he said, no, I don't
think women should work, and she said, see you right,
(41:13):
that wasn't who she was anymore. She wanted to work,
she wanted to contribute. She didn't need the money by
this time, of course, on Nassas was dead. She was very,
very wealthy. She didn't need the money, she needed the work.
She needed to be someone, and that's what she did.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
Well.
Speaker 4 (41:31):
I want to be conscious of your time, and also
my internet seems to be going in and out, so Lyra,
please feel free to take over if you have any
final questions.
Speaker 8 (41:38):
Okay, yeah, well I do have one.
Speaker 7 (41:41):
She made out with Robert Redford?
Speaker 1 (41:43):
Yes she did.
Speaker 9 (41:45):
Yes, I mean, I can't believe you remember that she did.
She made out with Robert Redford. But I was along
the lines of who wouldn't.
Speaker 7 (41:53):
I know, That's why I have to bring it.
Speaker 9 (41:56):
Up, you know, who wouldn't I mean? But at that time,
in the nineteen late seventies, you know, Robert Redford was
doing The Great Gatsby and they were filming it at Hammersmith,
which is where Jackie grew up. And they ran into
each other, and if I recall from what I wrote,
you know, they've snuck off and they started making out
like behind some rocks, like high school kids, and Jackie
(42:18):
was like, he's Robert Redford, I mean, come on, and
he was like she's Jackie, Oh, are you kidding? Me, right,
And I love that story because it's very human. But
that's as far as it went. You know, there was
nothing else. It was just that. And if it wasn't
for the fact that it was Jackie and Robert Redford,
we wouldn't even care, you know, But yet that did happen.
Speaker 8 (42:39):
Yeah, I'm very interested in your process of writing this book,
Like there's so many fully realized scenes, I would say,
with intimate conversations, and just how do you get there
from research and interviews?
Speaker 7 (42:54):
What's your process?
Speaker 9 (42:56):
The way I get there is that I am unrelenting
with my sources. With somebody like Jack Warnerkey, I talked
to him so many times, and I would call him
as I do Jamie Auchinclaus, Jackie's half brother, and I
would say, what is it that you said exactly? Like
I need to know exactly what happened? You know, people
(43:19):
are used to telling stories and broad strokes. Well, then
you know, she came over and then we went out,
and then after about two hours I brought her back home.
I want to know about those two hours, right, what
exactly did you say? What does she say? And this
drives my sources crazy, you know, I just interviewed Marilyn
Monroe's best friend and publishist Pat Newcomb for my JFK
(43:42):
Public Private Secret book that just came out, and Pat
Newcomb said something to me that really made me laugh.
She said, I have to tell you, I don't spend
a lot of time thinking about what my friends did
sixty five years ago, right, But I told her, if
your friend is Marilyn Monroe, I think it's a little
bit different. I think you can probably remember some of
(44:04):
these moments, you know. And she did and she did.
And to answer your question, that's how I do it.
Speaker 8 (44:10):
You know.
Speaker 9 (44:11):
I reconstruct conversations based on what the people who are
having the conversations told me they said and what they
what the responses were to me. It's more interesting to
do it that way than just have jack Warnicky quoted
as saying, I told Jackie this, and Jackie told me that.
Then I told Jackie this, and Jackie told me that.
I actually wanted to be able to reconstruct that to
(44:31):
bring the reader into their world. And that's what I do.
Speaker 7 (44:35):
It's great.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
Thank you so much, Yeah, thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (44:38):
Was this was really great? And again the book we
read is Jackie Public Private Secret, but the new one
that is coming out that I think will be out
by the time by the time this episode airs is
JFK public Private Secret. Yes, thank you guys, I really
appreciate it. I had a good time talking to you.
Speaker 9 (44:55):
Thanks so much.
Speaker 7 (44:56):
So that's it for this week's episode.
Speaker 4 (44:58):
Next week we're talking about the Goternet's on and off
boyfriend Jack Schlosberg.
Speaker 8 (45:03):
So subscribe and follow United States of Kennedy for all
things Kennedy every week.
Popular Podcasts
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!
Fudd Around And Find Out
UConn basketball star Azzi Fudd brings her championship swag to iHeart Women’s Sports with Fudd Around and Find Out, a weekly podcast that takes fans along for the ride as Azzi spends her final year of college trying to reclaim the National Championship and prepare to be a first round WNBA draft pick. Ever wonder what it’s like to be a world-class athlete in the public spotlight while still managing schoolwork, friendships and family time? It’s time to Fudd Around and Find Out!