310: A Door Marked Exit w/ Tony Goldwyn & Zahir McGhee

In a jam-packed episode, guests Tony Goldwyn and staff writer Zahir McGhee join the show to share some never-before-heard info from behind the scenes. Katie and Guillermo learn how Sally Langton’s crazed speech was written and filmed, plus Tony reacts to being berated by Papa Pope. 

What do you think, Gladiators? Email us at [e-mail] or leave us a voicemail at 805-298-1474 to share your thoughts about the show, about food, about life, but mostly about the show. We would love to hear from you!

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Unpacking the Toolbox is a production of Shondaland Audio in
partnership with Higheartradioshas and Katie.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
Okay, So this episode is it's so kick ass that
we have two kick ass guests to really hold it up.

Speaker 3 (00:39):
We're going to talk to Tony Goldwin.

Speaker 2 (00:42):
And then we've got the one and only Zahir McGhee,
who is an incredible writer, and he's going to give
us like a real some hot goss into like what
the hell was going on in the writer's room and
all those people's minds, what they thought of us, how
much they loved hugging Quinn.

Speaker 3 (00:58):
Katie, You're not even in LA right now.

Speaker 2 (01:01):
I'm not in LA, and it's like, I miss you.

Speaker 1 (01:05):
I miss You's got a job somewhere outside of LA.

Speaker 3 (01:11):
Can you say where you are? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:13):
And it's going to come out soon. At the time
of this recording, it was previous to the press release,
but the press release will be coming out next week.
And y'all, I'm in North Carolina. I'll play in a
Texan and I have been working not to day on
this accent. So apologies if I tend to be coming
in and out of it.

Speaker 4 (01:31):
I like it.

Speaker 3 (01:31):
It's so cute.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
Oh thanks g. It's so ridiculous, so crazy, it's so fun.
I mean, nobody will ever compare. It's so hard, isn't it,
Like dal Scandal will never I've collected some wonderful artists
and people on the jobs post Scandal. But you know,

(01:55):
because I was the I was the baby and the
youngest on Scandal, all the older people would always be like,
this is lightning in a bottle. Nothing ever existed like this.
Now I'm like, oh.

Speaker 3 (02:04):
Shit, yeah, it's true.

Speaker 1 (02:06):
I just did a guest spot on a show that's
been on for seven seasons and same thing. I mean,
they were all really nice and lovely, and you know
they were they were running a tight ship. But it
didn't have that energy that we had on our show
that like fun, like you know what I mean. We
were doing some intense stuff on the show, but we
had so much fun with each other on set.

Speaker 2 (02:29):
You know, I have to say I did a show
that I cannot say on this fucking podcast, like it
was a hit show at the same time that Scandal
was a hit show. But it won all the awards, okay,
unlike Scandal, who did not win any which is fucking bullshit,
But anyway, it won all the awards, and I have
to say, people can deduct this. I did a couple

(02:50):
id recurring on this show after Scandal, because I think
it did like one or two more seasons after Scandal,
and I just remember being on the set and like
everybody was on their phones, and everyone was like wildly
successful and like so famous, so they probably had like
a lot to do, right, like they're just like so busy,
and I just like looked around. I was like, I
feel like on Scandal, we were literally hanging out all

(03:11):
the time.

Speaker 1 (03:12):
And listen, there were moments where people were we were
all on our phones, but then like Josh Molina, someone
would get up and he'd grab somebody's phone and tweet
I'm horny.

Speaker 3 (03:21):
Like we were like even you know what I mean,
we were having a blast.

Speaker 2 (03:25):
Like we hung out likes and maybe yeah, and.

Speaker 3 (03:27):
We hung out a ton. Yeah on Saturday.

Speaker 2 (03:30):
We just like really were freaking tight. And it's really
like it's like somebody you go to sleep away camp
with or something. I feel like every time I see Yeah,
I mean, obviously, thank god we get to see each
other time, But even when I was texting Carrie and
it feels exactly like it did seven years ago. Like
it's when you go through something like that we've been through.

(03:52):
It just feels like time picks up exactly where we
last left off or something exactly.

Speaker 1 (03:56):
Maybe the people on these shows that we did didn't
like us, Maybe we were the problem. Maybe they were like.

Speaker 2 (04:02):
Oh god, I think you're right.

Speaker 3 (04:03):
Just stay on my phone.

Speaker 4 (04:04):
This annoying.

Speaker 2 (04:06):
Here ever treated the guest stars like shit.

Speaker 3 (04:08):
No, we would treat them so nice. We treat them
so nice.

Speaker 1 (04:12):
I remember every time a new person who would come on,
I would make a point to be like, hey.

Speaker 3 (04:16):
Welcome, like we're so happy you're here, like you're great.

Speaker 5 (04:19):
You know.

Speaker 2 (04:20):
Also, usually that guest star was like famous or had
an unbelievable resume.

Speaker 5 (04:24):
That's true.

Speaker 2 (04:26):
He oh it rhymes it does. Here has is having
technical difficulties, but he's our guest and we should have
teased him better than it did. Because this is our
very very first writer other than Shonda Rhymes herself, that
we had had on this skin of Rewatch podcast.

Speaker 3 (04:47):
I mean, this is awesome.

Speaker 1 (04:49):
Yeah, baby, I was just gonna say that here is
one of those writers that it felt like he was
like a peer, right, like it felt like he was
like like one of the guys, like one of us,
you know what I mean. It felt like he was
just hanging out with us on set, and that it
was always so much fun.

Speaker 4 (05:05):
MLA.

Speaker 3 (05:06):
Yes, just a.

Speaker 2 (05:08):
Few like writers that when they would come on said
it wasn't like scary.

Speaker 3 (05:12):
Yeah exactly, yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:14):
And now that I think about it, there were so
many seven and I mean there was so many that.

Speaker 3 (05:18):
The best in I mean yes, yes, Matt Burn, yeah,
were all great.

Speaker 2 (05:24):
Really, it was just it was just never when she
did it was terrifying.

Speaker 1 (05:28):
Yes, because we were just trying to just be so
good for her. We just wanted to make no mistakes.

Speaker 2 (05:34):
Hi, is it here? McGee? Here? McGee? You treasure of
a human being that you are. We were saying, I
don't know if you could hear it. You are our
first writer that we have ever had on Unpacking the
Toolbox other than Shonda Rhime's Queen Bee yourself.

Speaker 6 (05:50):
You know that that terrifies me, but thank you for
having me.

Speaker 2 (05:52):
I know, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I don't know why.
I think for listeners, listen here is a very, very
key a writer to scandal. But I also think because
we see each other like every morning at drop off
with our kids. That I was like, here, you're very
much at the forefront of my day to day. So yes,
feel special, but also don't feel threatened, right.

Speaker 5 (06:15):
Don't still that threatened?

Speaker 3 (06:16):
It's us two goofballs.

Speaker 5 (06:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (06:19):
No, I've been a fan. I was so excited when
when the podcast came out, and I've been able to
listen here and there, and obviously like last week's episode
was super awesome.

Speaker 2 (06:27):
Are you the biggest fan? Just tell us you're the
biggest fan of the Scandal Latch podcast.

Speaker 6 (06:32):
I'm the biggest fan for sure, and huge fans of
you guys. I mean, I've this is a ridiculous story,
but both of you. I brought my mom out to
the Image Awards. This was during season three, and both
of you had very interesting interactions with her, and she
was we were at the dinner the night before and
Germo you kind of just on the way out like

(06:53):
sort of hit me on the back, and then she
was like, I have to meet him, and I was like,
oh God, like I don't I work with these people,
they're my colleagues. Like what I've but I like sprint
over as you're trying to leave, and I'm like, Yo,
my mom is gonna lose it. Please help me out.
Whatever you did it, and I felt so bad. There's
one hundred, one hundred and twenty people lined up at
that point. You were this close to being done. And
then I think I left. I think we left before you.

(07:16):
And then which was incredible. And then Katie, you came
over and talked to my mom for like thirty minutes. Okay,
it was incredible, and then either we weren't.

Speaker 5 (07:25):
We won that year?

Speaker 2 (07:25):
I remember this.

Speaker 5 (07:27):
This was incredible. We won that year?

Speaker 6 (07:28):
We didn't when I can't remember, you guys were like
leaving early in the cast, was going to go to dinner,
and you guys, you came by again and you said
goodbye to me, and you said goodbye to my mom.
My mom looks at me. This is like an hour
after you had talked to her for thirty minutes. She goes,
who's that. I go, that's Quinn. We that's that's Katie.
Oh and then she goes, well, why didn't you introduce
to me earlier? And I know, are you kidding, lady?

Speaker 2 (07:49):
Did? She does?

Speaker 5 (07:50):
Not? Like?

Speaker 6 (07:51):
I mean, she just thought we were like friends.

Speaker 5 (07:54):
Yeah, right, like.

Speaker 2 (07:55):
Do you know what I mean? Like she didn't find because.

Speaker 6 (07:57):
We were just like catching up and Adam's there and whatever,
and it's like we're old friends. So I don't think
it zoned on her in the moment, but then after
you win something or you're with the rest of the cast,
then it was like, oh wow. But also I looked
in her notes and she was writing down everyone she met. Okay,
and it wasn't in her phone or in her phone,
but it wasn't like Adris Elba. It was like guy

(08:20):
from the Wire right, like man from her yeah, third
man from Empire.

Speaker 2 (08:28):
Oh.

Speaker 3 (08:29):
But in her head she knew exactly who those people were.

Speaker 1 (08:32):
She was like, I know exactly who the guy, this
third guy from Empire is.

Speaker 6 (08:36):
But the writer in me can't help but go to
the next part, which is when she's talking to her
sororities sources when she goes home. She doesn't say like
Terrence Howard. She just says like guy from Empire, right,
Like that's her list. She's just running down guy from Empire,
you know, little girl from Quel.

Speaker 2 (08:50):
Proud of you, Like just take us really quickly, like
how did you get the scandal job? How did you
end up in Shondaland's universe and also was your mom?
I mean, because I feel like my parents when people
ask you what does your kid do and they tell
you you're an actor and they're like, okay, great, like
have I seen her in anything? And then when your
parents are able to drop the scandal bomb such a flex, Yeah, yeah,

(09:12):
I need to hear your whole origin Shondaland story.

Speaker 6 (09:16):
So it's a kind of an it's an interesting one
that is pretty linear, so it's not interesting that way,
just sort of the circumstance that sort of happened, which
is I went to USC. I mean, i'll spare you
sort of the other stuff, you know, working in the
mortgage business and destroying that business and then deciding I
wanted to.

Speaker 5 (09:31):
Be in TV and film.

Speaker 6 (09:32):
But I come and I go to USC crazy and
interestingly enough, Shonda gave me my diploma in two thousand
and nine. What like she was like the she was
like the ambassador for the writing program, and so she
gave out like the thirty diplomas to the writing students. Okay, great,
A ton of stuff goes by. I get a job
at the Image Awards. I'm just sort of like trying
to write, trying to figure out what the next year

(09:53):
is going to be. And then I did a couple
like fellowship things and crappy jobs, and then I got
a I got into the Disney Fellowship. So I was
one of the eight writers picked for that in twenty ten.
So that's obviously amazing because you get they pay your
salary right and they're paying you a certain amount and
it was like fifty K, which at that point I
was like, oh my god, are you kidding. I remember

(10:15):
I bought a pair of glasses and I was like,
I'm gonna buy a pair of two hundred dollars glasses.

Speaker 5 (10:19):
I've made it, you know, that's big. That was amazing.

Speaker 6 (10:24):
And then so then I you go up for these shows,
and I was up for a job on Private Practice,
and I met with these guys Craig and Steve Craig
Turk and Steve Blackman and then Hammer also Mark Wilding,
who was you know, worked with us on Scandal as well.
So I met with both of them for a job
on Grays Anatomy and Private Practice. So to meet with
my to bring it back to my mom, I call afterwards,
She's like, how did it go? And then I'm like, oh,

(10:46):
I don't know, I think it went well, and she's like, god,
I really hope it's Great's anatomy. I'm like, okay, great.
So anyway, I get the job on Private Practice. I
called my mom and I'm like, hey, Mom, I got
the job on Private Practice. But I will say that's
the show I wanted for reasons that I just sort
of like Craze just felt like such a juggernaut at
that point, Like I just thought, like I just envisioned
like I'm going to get like eaten by a whale

(11:07):
or you know, I'm Charius with wax wings or something.

Speaker 5 (11:09):
But it was just not going to end well.

Speaker 6 (11:12):
And yeah, so Private was this incredibly awesome experience. And
I don't even know where I got the courage to say, did.

Speaker 3 (11:19):
You start on right? Did you write Katie's episode?

Speaker 5 (11:23):
Wait? Which one? Katie? Which one?

Speaker 2 (11:24):
Did you Doatie is the lead guest star season four.
The premiere episode where I yep.

Speaker 5 (11:35):
In the car you left the baby in the car.

Speaker 2 (11:39):
I left that baby in the car to exphyxiate and die.

Speaker 6 (11:43):
Yeah, you wanted another baby and.

Speaker 2 (11:45):
I wanted another baby. And the director was what's his name?
Who directed scandal to help Oh god, god, you know
Tanker Tinker directed it and that was my first experience
in Shondalin too. Did you write on that episode?

Speaker 6 (11:58):
I was definitely, I mean I was there that season.
I definitely didn't write the premiere. I'm sure that had
to be Shonda and one of the other head Honchos.
I was a staff writer at that point. I remember
that being a big story that we were really into
because that was that show was like moral like ethical debates. Right,
So you had come back to us and said you
want to have a baby.

Speaker 2 (12:15):
Anyway, So then how do you go from private practice
to scandal?

Speaker 5 (12:18):
Yeah?

Speaker 6 (12:18):
So I remember in season six and private was an awesome,
awesome experience with awesome, awesome people. And we got to
season six and I wrote I'd written an episode earlier
in the year, and then I wrote another episode like
episode six eleven, which was like two before we were done.
And I just remember at the table read Shonda like
walks by me and like goes like, we need to

(12:39):
talk about your future, and.

Speaker 4 (12:41):
I'm like, my future, the future.

Speaker 6 (12:43):
But I was excited about it, but really you're also
like what does future mean?

Speaker 5 (12:47):
Right?

Speaker 6 (12:47):
Like that could be like you're done here right, Like.

Speaker 2 (12:52):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 (12:53):
So I was like a.

Speaker 6 (12:54):
Complete cycle and I was a complete psychopath about this.
I just was like I show up before everyone, and
I leave later than everyone. I was in like that
mode for sure, which would come as a shock to
my colleagues at Scandal over the like at the end
of our Scandal run, But at that.

Speaker 2 (13:10):
Point you'd been doing fucking fourteen years. Yeah, you're just like, yeah,
it's fine.

Speaker 6 (13:16):
So we go totally. And so then one day she like,
well I can picture it so clearly. She walks by
and she like pokes her in, but she continues on
to her office. Then she like kind of comes back
and then she sits down and she just goes, do
you want to go work on Scandal? And I think
I made some jokes that didn't didn't land, and I
was like, frankly though, terrified, like you know, in this business,
like you want to like make it. I don't know

(13:37):
how you guys felt like when you were on Scandal,
but like you want the train to start moving. But
then sometimes point you're like, oh, man, do I have
control of this?

Speaker 5 (13:44):
Right?

Speaker 6 (13:44):
Like is it going to stop again? Am I going
to catch my bearings?

Speaker 5 (13:46):
Right? Like?

Speaker 6 (13:46):
Is this all moving too fast. So I was kind
of in my head like, oh crap, like whatever. We
all know the money is like never, never, ever enough.
But at the time, I'm like, I've made more money
than I ever thought I would make in my life,
Like I can't wait to chill, figure out what I
want to write, like take six months off, like I
don't know, like life something like that. And then you're
like that opportunity. I made some dumb joke and then

(14:07):
of course the answer was yes. The crazy part was
I had to like catch up real time. So the
last two weeks of Private Practice before we end, I'm
moving immediately to Scandal in mid season, right, you.

Speaker 5 (14:19):
Guys, yeah, season two?

Speaker 6 (14:22):
So you guys, Wow, I come, you've shot everything you
probably shot the first eight and season two, which is
when the show is like, oh wow, skyrocketing out of
control or not.

Speaker 4 (14:34):
I don't know what's.

Speaker 6 (14:34):
Aired yet, so I don't know if we were like
in like hit zone on the area or if.

Speaker 2 (14:38):
You guys you were talking like the storylines.

Speaker 5 (14:40):
The storyline.

Speaker 6 (14:42):
So I'm like, there's you know, there's robot guns, hawks,
you know, accues of this and whatever. I'm like, Meanwhile,
I was writing a doctor show about like who left
a baby in a car and we're going to get
someone another baby, and like doctors are like making out
a little bit, you know, like who's going to touch
you tonight? On private Practice. It's like all sort of
like fun and wonderful and I love it. And then
I'm like like, oh no, this is so intense, you know,

(15:03):
so we have to read them back to back to back.
We get to episode ten and you guys are having
the writer's table read for episode ten, which is of
course like an infamous, notorious, amazing episode of Scandal in
which Tony I believe that's one where you know, chokes Verna.

Speaker 2 (15:16):
What happened?

Speaker 5 (15:16):
But he kills he kills Verna.

Speaker 3 (15:18):
Oh shit, that's a great one.

Speaker 5 (15:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (15:22):
So I go in and I go hey, I email
Sean and I say, is it okay if I come
to the writer's table read? Otherwise I know the scripts
aren't distributed. I'm like, I have to be caught up
for when I get in the room.

Speaker 3 (15:32):
Yeah, you might as well come to the read. Yeah.

Speaker 6 (15:34):
So I come to the read with the writers only though,
so I'm meeting the writer.

Speaker 2 (15:38):
Everyone listened to this. This is new knowledge for this podcast,
which I didn't find out till later, Jada, did you
know this that they would do a writer's table read
where they would play our parts before we would get
the script. Are you seriously serious? Like Jenna Bands one
of the wonderful writers I was going to like always
read Quinn. I didn't know this until like season two

(15:58):
or three or Jenna was like, oh, what the writer's
table I was like, what the what the fuck is
the writer's table read? But it's like every writer, like
I think, you know, Jess Brownell always played Quinn I
think too in later years, like they would read it
amongst themselves to see like what was working or not
before we got it.

Speaker 3 (16:13):
Who played Hu? Who played.

Speaker 5 (16:16):
I Can?

Speaker 6 (16:16):
In the later seasons, Wan did a lot of Huck
I think nice for sure.

Speaker 5 (16:21):
Mon Carlos, who was our.

Speaker 6 (16:22):
Script cordinator for for an incredibly long time the early seasons,
I can't remember.

Speaker 2 (16:27):
To do Joe? Didn't you do Papa Pope?

Speaker 6 (16:29):
I did a lot of Joe stuff over the course
of my time there, But you really had to get
into it, you know, and like it was like you really,
I mean, this is something that like I'm sure you
guys have talked about on the show too, and watching
this episode, I felt the same way, which is like
the passion that you guys had at the table and
then every single thing. I mean I used to say

(16:50):
to Joe sometimes to be like, oh my god, thank
you for making that sound normal or making that sound
like it was something that was like profound because like
you're writing and going like oh no, and we we
are not. You guys were just sort of insular, insecure writers,
so like it's a lot to really like sell it.
But at the same time, like part of what made
the scripts alive too was everything was sort of a

(17:10):
cell job, not a cell job in like a.

Speaker 2 (17:12):
Mad way, but you had to commit. If you didn't commit,
if you didn't commit to the situation, in the circumstance
with what you've got, like it fell flat and you
guys can't put it just sort of A lot of
other shows have been on at the table reads, like
actors sort of like happy mumbling like I don't even
know if the Fu's going on the relationship. I swear
to god, these scane table reads and it sounds like

(17:33):
these writers reads they were like a fucking broadly Yeah,
they were playing for like a three hundred seat fucking audience,
like it was crazy?

Speaker 3 (17:42):
Would you reads? Did they tape your reads for you guys?

Speaker 4 (17:46):
It?

Speaker 6 (17:47):
Yeah, it would be an interesting exercise for absolutely no
one to do this. But if you guys saw the
scripts that we read for uh, you know, with Shanda,
for Shonda, they would be so different than what you
guys got. And then eventually what made it to air.
You guys know that we were sort of always working,
you know, yeah, and so did they tape them?

Speaker 5 (18:10):
No?

Speaker 6 (18:11):
And frankly, we were just not at the caliber, of
course of what you guys were doing. But we just
tried our best and it was just fun to write.

Speaker 2 (18:17):
I'd pay to see your Joe Moore, pay to see
your Papa Hope. Okay, so wait, so Seana lets you
into the writer's room on the big Verna death episode. Yes,
and what happens we read this?

Speaker 6 (18:27):
I am I must be sweating, like I must be
visibly sweating, just like being like I'm just completely like,
I'm just like this is so insane, I can't do it.
And then all I remember, like so in my cold sweat.
They get to the end and it's just like this
table red does crack, right, like these guys like it's
a crazy episode. Everyone sells it, everyone seems really happy
about it. And then on the way out at the door,

(18:49):
she's like, so what do you think? And I'm like,
what is the right answer here? And I was just
like all I could come up with was like basically like, damn,
that's crazy, Like that's.

Speaker 5 (18:58):
All I got. So now I can tell you.

Speaker 6 (19:01):
I go back to private practice that day to like
finish work there, and I'm like talking to all the
writers there and I'm like, I am going crazy. I'm
not going to be able to do this. This is
so out of my league, like just sort of not
out of my league, but like just sort of like
different than just this. It didn't feel like it. And
then so they're just like, it's December. I started in December.
They're like, it's December. You'll just like go there. It's

(19:22):
two weeks before Christmas. Break you like, you know, you
know how to like pitch shit, you know how to
like whatever, get to know everyone see what the vibe
is like, it's the train is already moving.

Speaker 5 (19:31):
They already know what they're doing.

Speaker 6 (19:32):
I show up day one, walking to the room, I
turned the corner and Mark fishes standing there. He's like, oh, hey,
I heard you were coming. I'm like, oh yeah, my
name's I here. It's nice to me. He was like
so happy to have you here. We you know, we
really need to use your brain since we don't have
anything broken for the back half.

Speaker 5 (19:46):
And you're like, I'm sorry.

Speaker 7 (19:48):
Shit, and you're like literally, I know, and you're just
sort of like, oh, I thought it was chow for
two weeks and then the next day with basically like
everyone come in with your conspiracy for the back half,
and like conspiracy, I'm like, I don't know, like a
I don't know a baby was born at twenty six
weeks and I don't.

Speaker 6 (20:04):
Know, Like that's gonna work here.

Speaker 2 (20:08):
That is so crazy. I for the listeners, yeah, all
the listeners, Like, I think we've touched on this before,
but it's so great to have to hear on this.
But like, Scandal is so different than I think how
other episodic TV shows go. Where they would start a
season and like the whole season is broken, right, like
you know, the general arc for everybody's character, all the

(20:30):
big beats you're going to pay, you know, see, and
this it's just really about getting me a to B
two seed on Scandal. The reason I think that the
show felt so like gun to your head OMG moments
is because you guys were figuring them out in real
time correct deadlines.

Speaker 6 (20:46):
Yeah, I mean, I'm always look, look, we definitely knew
I mean, we definitely knew big stuff, right, Like, there
was stuff that we sort of talked about, and there
were things that were sort of in the air, and
some you know, directors from Shonda and vice versa that
were kind of you tried to lean towards those, right,
But yeah, a lot of it did was super organic,

(21:06):
and a lot of it felt like responsive in a
lot of ways, and a lot of it was just
sort of like coming up with the best idea and
one thing that works incredibly. Like in addition to you
guys really just being super talented and committed to everything,
was that room was like forgetting the crazy, like the
story and the type of story we're doing, and it's
just sort of like thrillery, fast paced thing and we're
doing eighty scenes and crazy stuff. You know, the talent

(21:29):
in that room, right, Like, I mean, Jenna and I
want to hear about that, and Alan and you know,
Hammer and Mark Fish and you know, Paul Chris, you know,
like like we're talking about like eight nine show runners
right who were going to go on to run the shows,
and so like Heather, you know what I mean, Like like.

Speaker 2 (21:48):
It's just under there talking about such heavy hitters, where
like there was no everybody, there were no brilliant in
their own right, and every writer in there was capable
of having eight thousand shows than their own brain. Like
it was. So it's amazing.

Speaker 6 (22:03):
Super talented, not a bad writer in the bunch.

Speaker 2 (22:06):
Explain to our listeners that Scandal also wasn't written like
even though there was somebody's name on each episode, is
Scandal different from other shows? And that a lot of
episodes were like a group effort, like you take a scene,
you take a scene, you take a scene or was
it not like that? And I'm remembering incorrectly.

Speaker 6 (22:22):
Well, I don't know how much of this is the
public of knowledge or whatever. Absolutely, I'll say absolutely in
terms of comparing it to the other shows I've worked on,
one thousand percent, far and away the most collaborative show
I've worked on.

Speaker 4 (22:36):
I love that.

Speaker 2 (22:39):
That's so cool. God, it sounds like your writer's room
was like kind of similar to our cast, which is
so interesting and for all of you guys too, Like,
so you would have your own office, each writer had
their own office, and then you would have like a
group like living room out room. Am I making this up?

(23:01):
Or was it a conference table?

Speaker 3 (23:02):
Like are you?

Speaker 2 (23:03):
And then would you gather every day and like break
it together and then like go off to your own
offices and then like is that I don't I don't
know about this world at all.

Speaker 6 (23:12):
Oh well, it's different on every show, And just going
back to what I was saying before, it is, without question,
this was the most collaborative environment that I worked in.
But by and large, I've only only twice have I
worked in conference table writers rooms, and they just make
me out. I'm a big like just like couch an
individual table thing. I'm also like a little bit of
like a psychotic have to be in the same seat.

(23:36):
I can't concentrate if I Yeah.

Speaker 5 (23:39):
It's weird, but I get that.

Speaker 6 (23:41):
But so we have a writer's room, so we have
obviously we have our offices, and then we have a
writer's room. Scandal was a hugely room heavy show. So
we were there in the room, you know, anywhere between
six to ten hours more sometimes and we did everything together.

Speaker 1 (23:56):
I wonder you were so fucking keeping track of these
times lines and fucking just the storylines and everything right
like that, the research because it was even hard for
us to keep track. We would do scenes and I'd
be like, Katie, I don't know, like what what has
happened to?

Speaker 2 (24:13):
Like what's happening each other?

Speaker 1 (24:15):
Right?

Speaker 3 (24:16):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 6 (24:17):
If someone said to me, explain one conspiracy from scandal
beginning to end right now, and I'll give you like
five million, right, I really do it? Yeah, they to
kidnapp your entire quin, are going to kidnap your entire
family and torture them, But you're nothing. Give me the
Mole storyline beginning to end accurately, I'd be like, I'm sorry,
my god, no idea the Mole.

Speaker 2 (24:39):
We just went through that, and I was like, what,
there's thorn Gate, there's thorn Gate, there's Mole. There's a
war of a of a made up country that I
can't cash bar cash bar, Like how did you make up? Also?
How did you come it? Oh my god, we have
to talk about this episode, but I'm like obsessed with that.

(25:00):
This is so interesting to like how you made up.
You remember we who made up like the like Gettysburger,
or like a staple right, or like the Beaujolais wine,
which is a bullshit name of a wine. Like these
were things that I'm like, who the fuck made this

(25:21):
shit up?

Speaker 6 (25:22):
Well, the as much as we've talked about how awesome
the job is, the job is like really hard also,
and it's like a lot of pressure, as I've sort
of talked about, So I think a lot of what
we did was you are entertaining one another who you
your brothers and sisters who are like sort of living
with every day. So I used to remember like who
did what? Like even watching this episode, I can kind
of be like, oh, I remember who wrote the scene

(25:43):
or you know, whatever the case may be, Oh for sure,
and who came up with this pitch? And names were
the way that we always entertained one another, Like even
in the episode three ten, there's some like her her
one of her aliases is like Margo Bouvier and I
was like, yeah, I know that was a joke. I
don't know who was the mag laugh, but like whatever,
So Gettysburger, I don't know, but it's usually like what

(26:05):
happens is if if we go off to write, you know,
and you come back and someone as a scene, they'll
just have it in the scene, and it's just something
that when we do the writer's table, everyone goes, you know,
like just loses their mind sticks and you're like whatever, yeah,
or it's something that you know, China comes back to
the room with and she'll say and it sticks, and
it's just you kind of know what those moments are

(26:26):
going to be, and then a lot of the things
surprise you with Scandal, so it really was like again
like super collaborative, like some of the big stuff like
thinking about like Maya chewing her arms off or you
know whatever to get out of prison two episodes before,
you're like, I can remember so clearly how he came
up with that. And again it's just again the sort
of like organic semi organic, because there is the gun
of the deadline to your head, but it's in a

(26:49):
lot of I hate to say stuff like this, but
like in a lot of ways, it just felt like magic.

Speaker 2 (26:54):
You know, we will be back with more after the break.
Are there like your top three moments that you feel
like you either wrote or you know co wrote very
more like more like they were a scene heavy that

(27:15):
you really touched with your talent that you're so proud of.

Speaker 6 (27:19):
Is my mom? What did my mom think of Scandal?
She loved Scandal, and I think she loved you know
that the cachet that.

Speaker 4 (27:24):
It brought her.

Speaker 6 (27:25):
At home, my dad was always like kind of played
this role of like I don't watch that, Like why
the man's the president of the United States and he's
willing to give all that up for her, you know,
like he just was in like super masculine.

Speaker 5 (27:37):
That's realistic. That's not realistic, you wouldn't do that. Then
I went home one.

Speaker 6 (27:41):
Time and I was out of the room and my
dad's phone just kept going off, and I'm like, this
is so annoying, this is so annoying, Like why isn't
this man here old people who leave their ringer on,
Like why can't it.

Speaker 5 (27:50):
Just be onside of it?

Speaker 6 (27:51):
And then I go over to finally shut it off,
and it just is an alarm for Scandal. So like
she would remind himself too much, So he would pretend
to me that he didn't watch, but then he.

Speaker 3 (28:02):
Was like, I gotta watch my son show.

Speaker 2 (28:04):
Wow.

Speaker 5 (28:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (28:05):
And so in terms of like the things and I'll
just sort of say the things I'm proud of.

Speaker 2 (28:10):
And yes, you know, think of the episodes.

Speaker 6 (28:12):
It doesn't even have to be a moment, right, I
mean everything in the lawn Chair is like obviously like
the fact that we pulled that together. You know, everything
about that episode. I'm so grateful for, you know, my
own contributions and Cornelius coming into the show and that
episode and the speech of the on that episode.

Speaker 5 (28:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:33):
Wow, So here's episode Like that episode is one of
the all time greatest, most prolific, and we are having
you back on it will be you and Courtney b
Vance who are here. This is so so interesting. I'm
so interested in this, Like I can't even tell you,
but we're going to talk about three ten really quick,
because I know you were on set and I know

(28:54):
you remember a lot of this episode and you watched.
Oh my god, you're the greatest. Okay, we are talking
today about episode three ten, a door Marked Exit, which
aired on December twelfth, twenty thirteen, and.

Speaker 1 (29:03):
It was written by Zahir McGhee and directed by Tom Vericka,
The Tom Verica.

Speaker 2 (29:08):
It was guest starring Candy Alexander Asmya Lewis, Julia cho Is,
Shelby moss.

Speaker 1 (29:12):
Erica Schaeffer's anchor, and Paul Adostein as Leo Bergen.

Speaker 2 (29:16):
And how do you feel about reading in scandalpace?

Speaker 1 (29:19):
Sometimes we'll ask our guests if they want to read
the synopsis and scandal pasce do not feel pressure. Me
and Katie fuck it up all the time, but sometimes
it's fun. Something you could say no and we'll read
it like it's all good.

Speaker 6 (29:32):
I'm happy to give it a try.

Speaker 5 (29:34):
This will be.

Speaker 2 (29:34):
Embarrassing, Yeah, try here here, Okay.

Speaker 5 (29:38):
All right.

Speaker 6 (29:40):
As Olivia races to learn everything she can about her
mother's past in the Plane Land, Cyrus works to cover
up Sally Lankson's the Murderous Night, Fitz has plans of
his own when he kidnaps Elive Pope to get information
about the plane, but Olivia is the one to deliver
the news her dad was tricked by my into having
fits destroy the plane. And even more and even more
information is revealed when NSA. When an NSA couder brings
a recording of Sally and to David Rose.

Speaker 2 (30:02):
The way I've done it, then two paid actors over,
Yes that was? And why there isn't a tape of
you doing the writers fucking read through his playing top
of hope is upsetting there? Who tell me? I honestly

(30:22):
think just breaking down. Like favorite moments of this episode.
I think Sally Langston's monologues and fucking fight with Daniel
Douglas is like the best theater acting I've ever seen,
like in my life, Like she's screaming and then she's
like she is un believed.

Speaker 1 (30:42):
I want to know who the writer is that wrote that,
Who is the demented? Like that is hate filled soul
and spirit that he tapped.

Speaker 2 (30:50):
Into that like Piggy pig Like, who's ridiculous?

Speaker 6 (30:56):
God, I do remember all this. I think fry little Piggy,
Pry Piggy. He was Matt Burne for sure. And then
this is the first one I really don't remember. I
mean I usually defaulted in these areas when they're in
when it's incredible, and I can't remember that. Obviously it
was Shonda so but also what made that sick right
is the editing right, Like the way that that's sort

(31:19):
of edited is incredible. And I remember watching Matt Ramsey
was our editor who cut this episode. It was with
you know, he worked on private practice, and he worked
in Shona Land for incredibly long time. And I remember
after the table read, Shanda just said to him, like,
can we make it like kind of weird? Like she
like they had a shorthand about like he kind of knew.
And he also had the you know, carte blanche in

(31:40):
some ways to make something that was like a little
bit like you were really seeing that that kind of
stuff on broadcast TV.

Speaker 2 (31:45):
Like that first it was filmic. It was it was
like a movie.

Speaker 1 (31:52):
I was just saying really quickly, Like in the opening scene,
there were shots of like Sally Langston's feet, like her
taking her shoes off, and then you would hear dialogue
and they would cut to a close up of their
face but they weren't talking, and it was it was
just so so interesting.

Speaker 3 (32:05):
But yeah, that camera work was ridiculous.

Speaker 1 (32:07):
Oliver is so great. We have to have Oliver on.
We will, I'm sure at some point.

Speaker 2 (32:10):
Oh yeah, we have to have him on. I mean you,
we have to have him on.

Speaker 6 (32:14):
It looks so good, it's edited so good, and the
performances are so insane, and the writing is so good.
And what I loved about sort of all the scenes
in the show. And this was like indicato of the
right of the bat, which is like it's never like
a one person says there's whatever and the other person
comes back or they kill It's like it's like you
think it can't go any higher, right, Like you think
you can't possibly get any more, And like the part

(32:36):
I love she said the thing like you're my original sin,
Like you are stupid. What you have given me is
a daughter who can't keep her legs closed.

Speaker 5 (32:44):
Oh shit, like about our own daughter, Yeah, about her
own toter.

Speaker 6 (32:47):
You're well, you can't, you can't top that. And then
she's like, I can't wait until you try to judge
for your lives. But then he comes back with something right,
So it's like two like opponents. The scenes are always
like these two opponents who are going back and forth,
and it leads to that thing like I just thought
she was just so good in the entire episode, and
I'm also like good. Can you imagine having drinking every time?

(33:08):
There was a biblical reference in this episode, Oh.

Speaker 2 (33:10):
My god, alcohol poisoning. You would need to have your
stomach palms, you would be at a hospital and you
would be dead. It was unbelievable. Speaking about the alcohol,
we always talk about we have to talk about the scenes,
but we always talk about eating and actors'ing our favorite
And in this episode, I was like, there's a scene
Olivia Pope is literalus. I used to be like, wow,

(33:30):
they really make fun of Olivia Pope drinking like really
big wine glasses, And in this episode was the first
time that we're like, that's the biggest fucking red wine
glass I have ever seen. Like it was a goblet.
It was absolutely ridiculous, and you know it was delicious
grape juice. Okay, here what other scenes in this episode
just stick out to you? Performance wise?

Speaker 5 (33:50):
I can't.

Speaker 6 (33:51):
I could not stop watching Jeff just like bounce around things,
like he's just like just and even the just the
number of things yes today, Like can you guys sort
of highlight the scene with him and Melly is like
so incredible, But just when he comes in and brings
the doctor in, like it's almost like born like insane comedy,

(34:11):
Like just he's so good and so tense.

Speaker 1 (34:13):
And it's honestly like a farce or something.

Speaker 2 (34:20):
He feels like so crazy and.

Speaker 6 (34:23):
You can watch when she's like he's like Sally, do
you think Daniel Douglas wants this? And you can see
like he's about to explode if she doesn't do this.
That was really incredible, I thought. I mean, I also
had worked with him so long in private practice that like,
I just loved Paul in everything.

Speaker 2 (34:39):
We believe that Leo Bergen is Leobergen for me personally
is one of my all time favorite Scandal characters, fucking
hands down, and he is. He's my one of my
favorite lines in this when he says when he says
he says something to Sally that's like, yeah.

Speaker 6 (34:55):
Yeah, he just well he he susses it out right,
like she screams, you know, Danga Douglas is a sodomite,
and he's like, oh crap.

Speaker 5 (35:03):
He's like you you killed him.

Speaker 6 (35:06):
Yeah, you killed him, and like that I remember, I
can't remember who pitched it, but I remember it being
like he's excited, like we can fix this, we can
we can still win. And so then he's like, yeah,
you called the White House, like your sin is not
the murder, your sin I mean, and that's like, no,
the sin is that you didn't give me the opportunity

(35:26):
to win this cleanly. If you had just called me,
I would control the situation right because he knows where
the power lies. And then you were scenes you guys together,
particularly when you come back, and he sort of that's.

Speaker 2 (35:39):
One of my cringe moments. That's one of my cringe moments.
Cringe moments, oh, because it's so hard to watch this
show when you're like the baby and the idiot, because
you're like literally like on a show with Jeff Perry
and fucking Kate Burton doing like Oscar Tony Olivier Award
Guiermo Diaz, like it's ridiculous. It should be reigning awards

(36:01):
on the acting level. And then I come in and
was like, I used to be normal. I think I
was worried about my highlight.

Speaker 8 (36:09):
And I.

Speaker 2 (36:11):
Remember shooting about that scene, which is so great. He's
talking about a scene where I come back to a
hotel room. Charlie and I are living in a hotel room,
and I remember I had to be in bron underwear.
Always was stressful, and Tom Jerika was so great. He
was like, just put your knees up and we're going
to make it look so like I was basically hidden.
It was great, Like I wasn't my broad underwear, but
like eight nobody saw it, which was great. Okay, so

(36:32):
I was cringe worthy for me. Oh who would come
up with the titles of the episodes?

Speaker 3 (36:37):
Oh that's a good question.

Speaker 6 (36:39):
Oh that was another free for all. That was like
we would reel up with and I can't remember, like
roughly writers. I don't know if it was writer's table. Yeah, writer,
because you guys always had titles at the.

Speaker 2 (36:48):
Table, right, yes, always, If.

Speaker 6 (36:50):
You always had titles at the table, then usually once
we would turn in a writer's draft or the second
the second writer's draft, we would then sort of sit
around and talk about the titles, and I'm yeah, I'm
trying to think, like everyone sort of came up with
a few. I think Chris was someone that always sort
of like we thought about, like came up with like

(37:12):
good titles on the fly, and some people sort of
would sort of relinquish that, like people like Paul I
have no interest in coming.

Speaker 2 (37:18):
Up with that impossible. I can't come up with a
fucking title. That's impuzzible, and the titles are so funny, like.

Speaker 3 (37:26):
Girl, I can't One.

Speaker 6 (37:28):
Of the secrets was trying to figure out the line, right,
so a door marked exit or a Molley You and
Danger Girl, right, like, these are all lines that are
in the episode. So that was the starting place. Was
kind of trying to predict like what is the viral line,
Like I don't know if you guys used to need
the sort of recaps, but like in Vulture or a
v club, like they would do like a line of

(37:48):
the week, and like, I don't know, like it was
awesome if that was your.

Speaker 5 (37:52):
Line, right, like, so.

Speaker 2 (37:55):
How great would that be?

Speaker 6 (37:56):
That's sort of like how titles it would initially go
to trying to figure out, like what's the line in
the episode that like Shondall connect with or that the
audience is going to connect with.

Speaker 2 (38:06):
And it was so like, you know, not that it's
like pop cultuy, but it's just so like perfect, like
like tweetable or digestible or like it just nails it.
It's just so fucking.

Speaker 6 (38:19):
Some of the backfire I did. One of the episodes
that had my name on it was an episode You
Got Served, which was like everyone, you guys, like all
the subpoenas at the beginning, but in the end of
the cut there no one actually got subpoenaed. So that's
sort of like it's a reference to something.

Speaker 5 (38:36):
Yeah, yeah, this makes no sense.

Speaker 2 (38:39):
So funny, Okay. I just think Candy Alexander is the
most beautiful looking end moment where in the wind and
we find out she's really the scary one and she's
the bad guy and all this stuff, and then she
picks up her phone and she's like and she's like
Olivia's like mom, and she's just in this fucking amazing

(39:00):
French coat hair. She's like, I see soon, baby, or
something like that. And then she just throws away the
burner phone in the trash can and she walks away
and you realize that she's standing in front of the
White House.

Speaker 6 (39:10):
Yes, yeah, I will say that that's like an odd
place to make that phone call, I think if you're
sort of wanted.

Speaker 1 (39:17):
But I would have smashed that phone up before throwing
it in the garbage, right, I would have thrown it
in the water, not just like she like chucks it
open into the garbage.

Speaker 2 (39:29):
I mean scandal that people had to just sort of buy.
I remember people used to be like, there's no way
that if you're in DuPont Circle that you can get
to the Pentagon next scene and just watch the show.
Television it's fine.

Speaker 6 (39:47):
That's the one where it's also like we were good
at taking sort of irrational logic in one episode and
then making it make sense later, So like we never
did anything like that. You say that, I go, you
said you didn't smash a cell phone. If someone said
that in the room, we might say, like three episodes later,
it should be like, well, actually she didn't smash it
because she wanted someone to go to that spot because

(40:08):
of the pocket.

Speaker 5 (40:09):
You would have made it work, you know, in a way.

Speaker 6 (40:12):
And and and a lot of questionable ideas in all
of television and on this show have been recovered with
some some forward logic, some some some some corrective logic.

Speaker 2 (40:24):
I just always was so blown away at how And
I don't know if it's because the writing was so
great or because our acting was so great, but I
was always so blown away by like you guys doing
making some ship up and and then people just all
buying it, Like I'd like it's literally like I.

Speaker 3 (40:41):
Just like, I like they bought that ship. Yeah, I
mean it was.

Speaker 2 (40:46):
Always sinker, you know what I mean, Like like it's
just crazy, Like it's just so wild.

Speaker 6 (40:53):
I mean, it's a testament again to the show, and
and what sort of people were attracted to in the beginning,
and what Shonda created, and also what you guys bought,
which is like Kerry and Olivia Pope were such compelling characters, right,
and then you guys come and you like really sort
of like own these characters and bring them to life
where you care about you know, Huck in this, you
care about a murderer who's willing to torture as best

(41:16):
friend in this incredibly compelling way. And so I think
that that, I mean, that's ultimately what people care about
in television, right, Like do they really care about the
how and the why? I mean, of course they do
in certain shows like but this also, you know, this
wasn't Law and Order, and I don't know that what
they're doing isn't ridiculous either, but as long as it
sort of feels real and sort of the emotion always

(41:37):
felt real to me, you know, like like Jeff didn't
crazy did insane things. You guys both did insane things
on the show, but it all made sense.

Speaker 3 (41:46):
Like there's nothing Cyrus didn't take it make sense to me,
do you know what I mean?

Speaker 6 (41:49):
Like, you know it's insane right in this episode it's
insane to pimp out your husband so that you can
get this guy in trouble so that you can then
get Sally off. It's his back so you can win
in an election, right, and then.

Speaker 3 (42:02):
It's kind of hot.

Speaker 6 (42:03):
It's gotta and the fact that you have the nerve
afterwards to be like, we're really mad about it, like
you know what I mean, Like boyfriend said, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (42:12):
And not get pictures.

Speaker 6 (42:14):
There's no way you guys remember the table read for this,
but there is an entire story missing that we read
at the table that doesn't exist in the show.

Speaker 5 (42:22):
Really yeah, So I remember.

Speaker 6 (42:23):
This very clearly, and I remember when we cut it,
and then I went back to look at the writer's
draft to see and in addition to everything crazy stuff
that ocurds in this episode, there was also a B
six thirteen origin story that told you about Joe's origin.

Speaker 2 (42:41):
Get up right now and go fucking pitch that. Remember
I'm available of July.

Speaker 3 (42:48):
I'm available right now, me your most.

Speaker 2 (42:51):
Holy Joe, George, George Newborn, and whoever the fuck else
you want, we are available.

Speaker 1 (42:59):
And do you remembers show We used the daydream on
set of Scandal that they would do a spin off
called of B six thirteen, and we would all continue
on after Scandal.

Speaker 2 (43:07):
Because shooting that stuff, Like we loved being at the
Acne Acne paper. We loved being this.

Speaker 5 (43:14):
Like wonderland, wonderful.

Speaker 2 (43:19):
Part of Like, Oh, I thought my acting was good
at that part. I thought I did good. When I
was digging the out of my two that was so
difficult to.

Speaker 6 (43:28):
I mean just also thinking about the range of stuff
you're doing right, Like you go from like you're getting
tortured to like you're having this vulnerable moment with Charlie too.
You're cleaning up a body like you cleaned up the
Daniel Douglas Daily.

Speaker 2 (43:40):
I am so versatile, you sup.

Speaker 3 (43:44):
We'll be right back, guys.

Speaker 2 (43:51):
Were you guys ever worried? Like, oh shit, Like if
Carrie Olivia Pope murders the vice president with the chair,
like will we like were there?

Speaker 5 (44:02):
Yeah?

Speaker 8 (44:02):
No?

Speaker 2 (44:03):
Like yeah, were you thwhack? Was that the name of
it the episode?

Speaker 8 (44:09):
Like?

Speaker 2 (44:09):
Were you ever? Like how are fans like our fans
and gladiators going to cross her? Like will they not
be on Olivia Pop's side or were you Like no,
they We've got them in the possible.

Speaker 3 (44:19):
I still love her. Yeah, yeah, you.

Speaker 6 (44:22):
I mean as Quinn really didn't cross o Pa or
Olivia at all, but you can, like you looked in
her email one time, and like the fans are like,
oh my god, she crossed them.

Speaker 2 (44:35):
Kill her, death threats, death threats. If you're not with Olivia,
you're dead, right.

Speaker 6 (44:42):
So it's about being with Olivia, so we can justify
what Olivia does. So no, I don't think that there
was ever. I mean, look, okay, well how do we
justify that she's going to kill a man in a
wheelchair because he was in a wheelchair, remember, right? And
but he really he said some crazy things to Olivia, right,
He like called her like a horror and this and
that whatever, and she just had enough. So I think

(45:05):
once you say that to Olivia Pope, the fans are like,
how about it.

Speaker 3 (45:09):
Kill that motherfucker?

Speaker 2 (45:10):
Yeah, we don't care, bye, I mean wow, okay, okay, wait,
we have to talk about because we have Tony on too.
Tell me about the Tony Eye. I'm so uncomfortable in
the Joe Morton Tony Goldwyn opening of that scene because
he says how good Olivia is and what she tastes, like,

(45:32):
are you joking? You say that to her father.

Speaker 3 (45:35):
Who about that scene?

Speaker 6 (45:37):
God, I wish I knew who wrote that, But I
will say, like, just like I was saying before, like
everything is to the highest degree, like the like Sally
talking about like she can't keep her legs closed or
all the you know, when Cyrus is like, you know,
says to James like that baby that I bought for you.
It's talking about his own daughter, and he's like, that
baby that I bought for you, that's in the next room.
So if everyone on the show always went for the jugular, right,

(45:59):
like there were always the sharpest, the meanest, right, and
then as writers, you have to be the sharpest the meanest,
so you're looking to like one up the person on
the next scene and be like how can you do
that thing? So it's funny rewatching that scene, which is incredible,
and like obviously that's just like probably the most iconic
scene to come out of this episode, I think as
far as like I.

Speaker 2 (46:18):
Think he wanted me. We were talking about he won.

Speaker 5 (46:21):
This episodemi this year. Yeah, you guys delivered.

Speaker 4 (46:24):
In back to back.

Speaker 1 (46:27):
And then Joe Morton how many and just we win
a wait none? Oh wait, oh wait, we want nothing anyway,
go aheads the year. He's so freaking good in that chair.

Speaker 5 (46:38):
Oh my god, he's so good in the chair.

Speaker 6 (46:40):
And it does feel like it was the only thing,
like thinking back to it, it's really the only leg
that that fits as a characterized to stand on it.
And it's also like kind of goes with where Joe
goes with the scene later, which is it's just sort
of like juvenile, right, like you went the expected route,
like and you went for the thing that you think
is going to hurt me the most. But like like
like Joe Morton just sort of can't be touched. But

(47:02):
I think Tony plays it really well, and he obviously
comes back at the end of the episode and sort
of pushes him out his command. But that scene I
was on set for the rehearsal, right, I mean it
was on set the entire time. But Tom's directing it,
we're watching it, we're in the rehearsal. This is exactly
what happens. He does the entire thing pretty much as
it is in the thing.

Speaker 3 (47:20):
But he probably book for sure.

Speaker 6 (47:21):
Oh yeah, yeah, Well he did ever have all the
he didn't have all the pages. Oh wow, he did
something in the rehearsal where we're reading and then I said, oh,
you have the wrong thing. Did anyone give you like
the golden rods or like the double golden rods or whatever?
And he was like whatever. So it was only like
three lines that changed. So then he went back changed,
came back off book. Does it almost as is? He

(47:42):
probably sings like ten percent more, which is still crazy
because the performance is basically a musical, right, Like he's
dancing and singing through the entire.

Speaker 2 (47:48):
Thing, singing summertime and oh you're a little bully.

Speaker 3 (47:55):
O god.

Speaker 6 (47:56):
So I'm like Tom and I we've talked about it
in tone, and like, you know, Seanda is very specific
about like this is how I want to see shot,
and like, as like a younger writer on set, you're like, well,
I want to make sure she gets exactly what she wants.
And so the performance is incredible, but you do know
there's like a couple of things here or there that
maybe you might want to see differently or whatever. She
might want an option here or there, whatever. But the
crew in total stands up after the rehearsal and is clapping.

(48:21):
So me, I'm just going like yeah, totally. But I'm
like oh no, how do you change any part of
the performance When the entire crew, like Brad who doesn't
get up at all for any reason other than the
show is moving fast, he's like losing his mind. People
are in tears, and you're just sort of like, oh
my god. So that I will say, like we that performance,
like we might not have done that but one or

(48:42):
two other times, and most of what's in there is
exactly what we did on the first take. And I
think that both of them were I think Tony was brilliant.

Speaker 2 (48:50):
He came out of the gate like that.

Speaker 6 (48:52):
Came out of the gate probably ten percent above what
you saw.

Speaker 3 (48:57):
But Katie, you know that's not shocking it. Joe, he
came up.

Speaker 1 (49:04):
Every single scene that I ever did with him, so
like it's mind boggling.

Speaker 3 (49:09):
It's remarkable.

Speaker 2 (49:10):
Yeah, and we don't remember who came up with the
like when he's like you're a little boy and you're
a little bit essentially you're interesting.

Speaker 5 (49:16):
That had to be a Sean the.

Speaker 2 (49:18):
Privilege piece of shit like you that you are nothing
like you're just it was.

Speaker 6 (49:25):
Well, I mean again, I think that was Johan and
I think it was also. The crazy part about that
is that sort of resonated with a certain segment of
our audience. Was like the idea, and we touched on
it much later with Joe, Like just the idea that
this man was brought in chains right to this black
man was brought in chains to the secret place he's
calling the white white president a boy just is like

(49:48):
made him doubly triply powerful. Like there was all of
those you sort of talked about before. I think that
there was a lot more like Trojan horse stuff and
many many more layers than think than than really had
to be, and that I think a lot of people
understood at the time, but that you know, in addition
to the performance and it being an amazingly written speech
and Tony's performance against him really strong, there was a

(50:10):
lot of other layers to that, and a lot of
talk about the metaphors in that scene too, which was
was really just I don't know, top notch. I mean,
he just doesn't stop, like it just feels like he's
on like a I don't even know. And Oliver, which
we I don't know if you guys talk about him
on the show as well, so we have to.

Speaker 5 (50:25):
Have him on.

Speaker 2 (50:25):
Oliver Bogelberg was our TP He directed a bunch of
episodes too, but he was our DP and he is
an incredible camera like artist. He's just such an artist.
The way he shot that show, it was not shot
like a typical broadcast drama at all. This was so
I'm like souls here. This was like such a part

(50:46):
of this show that we have not really I mean, Seana,
we had her on and we talked, but it was
so much about the beginning of scale, like where the
ideas come from, how she wrote the pilot, like casting
and you know, the first three weeks we shot ever
and the rehearsals and all of that. But this is
so fascinating, and I'm so grateful to you spending the time,
and thank you. I could talk to you for hours

(51:08):
because we definitely have you back on for the launch
to know, like, I still feel like you're you're a
pretty good vault and haven't given us much.

Speaker 3 (51:17):
We're going to crack them. We're whisky next time.

Speaker 2 (51:21):
The whole time of the show too, it was a
vault the whole time. We didn't know what was going
on in there. We didn't know how decisions were made,
We didn't know why things stuck or went away or
like anything. You guys were such a little b six
thirteen amongst yourselves.

Speaker 6 (51:33):
Well, a lot of it was a surprise to us,
right like Cotts, Like I said, we didn't always see
and then also like we're doing it in real time,
so sometimes it'd be like I genuinely don't know the
answer to your question. Like Columbus used to come up to
me all the time and think that somehow he could
like dance his way into getting some information out of me.
I'm so I would love to obviously do it again,

(51:56):
and I love you know this kind of stuff terrifies me,
But the reality is like, no, you're so good getting
the opportunity to talk about this thing again where I
made so many lifelong friends and to talk to you
guys and sort of remember some of the amazing fun
we had. Like I just couldn't pass up on that
opportunity and get.

Speaker 1 (52:13):
To watch the episode, right and get to watch the
show again, like that must have been.

Speaker 6 (52:17):
Exciting watch it, watch it having the experience of watching
it knowing where it ends, so like watching David Rosen
and and Dan and knowing where that's going to go
in a couple of episodes, which is amazing yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:30):
Oh man, this was the freaking best here. You're so amazing.
Here was amazing. Thank you for coming on. And now
we're going to put pivot because the President of.

Speaker 3 (52:43):
Sam here, can you believe it? Fitz Gerald Grant, the
Tony here the third. Oh shit, don't forget the three.

Speaker 2 (52:52):
Don't forget that three. Fitzgerald Grant the third is here
to talk to us also about this episode, because it's
a big presidential episode. It's a big presidential season. All
of season three is all about him getting re elected
and if he will have a second term. And oh
my god, Tony, we're not even going to take up
that much of your time because we just are.

Speaker 4 (53:13):
You kidding to get to spend time with you, guys.

Speaker 2 (53:17):
You look so handsome as per usual letters not Tony
Goblin is still a site for sore. First of all,
I want to hear about how you're doing in your life,
and you have so many things going on coming up
and have just come out. But also, we couldn't talk
about this episode without going into this freaking monologue situation, like.

Speaker 4 (53:38):
Crazy, Like I just rewatched the whole episode.

Speaker 2 (53:42):
You did, you did?

Speaker 3 (53:43):
It was so it's so good, right.

Speaker 4 (53:46):
It's really It just reminds me how crazy Scandal was. God,
how much story is episode of it is so outrageous.

Speaker 1 (53:58):
And that being seen, just that opening scene, it's like
so much going on and so like new things, Like
it was super like we're.

Speaker 2 (54:07):
Talking about Sally Likestin killing Daniel Douglass right where like
you know he's been murdered in the episode before, but
now we see their like big last fight, like she
stabs them in the end, in the back with a
freaking letter opener.

Speaker 1 (54:21):
I mean it is, but I love how they sort
of go back and forth and then you hear the
characters talking but you don't see them their mouths moving.

Speaker 3 (54:28):
It's super like edgy, like, oh it's so cool, it's
so interesting. Yeah, I knew.

Speaker 4 (54:35):
She like made all that decisions in the cutting room
like this she did.

Speaker 3 (54:38):
I'm sure, right, yeah.

Speaker 4 (54:40):
Well I didn't go ahead look at the script, but
that was like classic Shonda, you know, taking it all
part and putting it back together in a really crazy way.
I think would she do that?

Speaker 2 (54:51):
You have experience like that because you directed some of
the episodes that you saw like what Shonda would do
in the editing room that you were like, oh shit,
like that, that's crazy, like you do rip them together.

Speaker 4 (55:02):
Well, I can't rememb ive ever told you guys this,
but years and years and years ago when I first
met you on it, when I directed Gray's Anatomy, I
had you know, when you direct an episode of a
television show, you know you have like you turn in
your director's cut, right, So when I did Gray's Anatomy,
I think I only directed movies. I think up until
that point, I directed a couple of movies. So I

(55:24):
felt it kind of like, well my impresson. I took
the episode and I made some decisions editorially, but I thought, well,
of this scene is a long and we'll just chop
that out, and this would be better if you move
this here and do that there. And I thought, give
this to the and I done know. I know I'd
done the L word, and I lean the showrunner of
that love that. She was like, grid't me your ideas. Anyway,

(55:45):
I go and I took some made some changes to
the thing, and it was my opinion of what I
thought would work best. Turned into the next year, they
hired me back to do another episode. Editor I go
into the cutting room and he says, before we get started,
I WI need to talk about something. I said, what
he said, Yeah, last year, Seanda was a little upset

(56:05):
with with your cut. I said no. He said, yeah,
you know, she really wants everything in there, and you
kind of, you know, cut some stuff and made some
and and uh and he sort of had to give
me a talking to because what Seawan, wow, which not
all producers want, is she wants the script exactly as
written in the director's cut, so you make it has

(56:26):
to have every word be in the right order and
exactly what, you know, what was written. And then she
goes in and does and rewrites the whole show in
the editing room and sometimes completely deconstructs things. But it
really threw her that I had made some choices. You
I got in trouble.

Speaker 8 (56:47):
I wouldn't see that, understandal I always said that, Yeah,
that was I don't write I was you kidding, I
don't know it's gone it was.

Speaker 4 (56:57):
It was the third episode of Grey's Anatomy as well. Yeah,
oh wow.

Speaker 2 (57:01):
Interesting. And Tim Brathy used to come in. That makes
sense because he used to come and be like, shit
that we just did the string together of this episode.
We're fucking nineteen minutes over because like we were shooting
one hundred page scripts for a forty two minute show.
The most plot dialogue shit to fit in ever, and
if she wants it, every single word and stage direction

(57:23):
is in there in the correct order.

Speaker 3 (57:25):
I mean that is a lot a long show. Yeah,
that is a lot.

Speaker 4 (57:28):
Yeah, you turn it something in that long you do
do that. But you know, I thought it was fun
actually directing once I knew the ground rule. So when
we did Scandal, I was just like, Okay, I'm going
to take this script that Chonda wrote and deliver it
in the tightest best way I possibly can, with the
best performances. And that's an interesting kind of like editorial assignment,

(57:50):
you know what I mean, Nobody she's going to come
in and do like what she did in three ten,
which is that's like a my movie. The story in
that there's like a whole I was amazed when I
rewatched it.

Speaker 2 (58:02):
I was just like, you rewatched it? Can you This
fucking monologue goes down in history, I think, which is
why we had to have you back on Like we're
talking gladiators about you are a little boy monologue where
you're a boy, Yeah, you're a boy? Fits gets you know,
pop a pope. He's all tied up and he's in

(58:23):
like some really aware and I mean it's the monoe mono.
I don't even know how you would how would you
paraphrase this scene?

Speaker 1 (58:34):
It's Yeah, I blames for that monologue because you start
off by just going in and telling him your daughter.

Speaker 2 (58:55):
You say, I love the way she tastes as much like.

Speaker 3 (59:00):
You had coming. Yeah, he's just taking it in.

Speaker 4 (59:04):
And then just and Joe delivered that model like I
went into like a twenty minute shame spiral just for
saying those main things to me. I was like, Wow,
do you.

Speaker 2 (59:17):
Remember reading it at the table read? I don't, do
you Do you remember when you first laid eyes on that?

Speaker 4 (59:23):
Oh? Yeah, I do.

Speaker 2 (59:24):
Were you terrifying?

Speaker 4 (59:25):
Were you?

Speaker 5 (59:26):
No?

Speaker 4 (59:27):
What I mostly remember is shooting it.

Speaker 5 (59:30):
I remember I sort of have a memory.

Speaker 4 (59:32):
Of the the table reading, thinking Wow, what an incredible thing.
But when Joe unloaded on me, I was in shock.
I was like, it was so so intense and so theatrical.
It was like operatic.

Speaker 8 (59:47):
Yes, yeah, So I was kind of stunned at the
at his balls in delivering it in that in the
way that he did, Like it was it was.

Speaker 4 (59:58):
It was super impact. I remember being like having my seating,
you be on the receiving end of that.

Speaker 1 (01:00:02):
I mean, he goes into he goes into accents, He
went into accents, into characters.

Speaker 3 (01:00:08):
He was like getting down.

Speaker 2 (01:00:11):
Yeah it is easy, and oh you're a little boy
and like all this ship You're like, oh my god.

Speaker 4 (01:00:17):
Yeah, Like it was. I knew what he was doing
was brilliant and it was so theatrical. I was like,
is our show gounna going to sustain this intense theatricality?
And then I didn't. Honestly, I didn't understand fully what
Joe was doing until I saw it later, Like I
appreciate it, and I've always thought Joe's brilliant no matter

(01:00:38):
what he does. But when I it's so deep what
he's doing in that scene, you know what I mean.
Like that's why watching it now, ten years later or
whatever it is, it's very especially all we've been through
in the years since about race and you know, and
power dynamics in our society and all of that. I

(01:01:01):
didn't have a fucking clue in twenty thirteen or whatever
it was, you know, I was like, yes, I didn't
understand what where Joe was honestly coming from me. That's
like a I'm just admitting that, you know. And now
when I in retrospect of all that we've had had
to process and think about and face, I watch it
now and I'm like, it's very disturbing. I mean, Joe

(01:01:25):
won an Emmy for that episode, didn't Oh did.

Speaker 3 (01:01:28):
He for that one?

Speaker 2 (01:01:29):
I think for a guest star, right, because is he
recurring at this point?

Speaker 4 (01:01:35):
Yeah, he was a guest star.

Speaker 2 (01:01:36):
Yeah, so he won the Go Scandal. I think the
year before it went to Dan Bubutinski, and I think
this season it went to Joe Morton for this.

Speaker 4 (01:01:43):
Episode for that long yeah, really, yeah, And Joe always
I get the what he did, which is why he
so deservedly won an Emmy for that character. He just
swung so hard with his point of view on Pop
Up Pope, you know, and it's just such good casting.
He's so great. Yeah, it's so ballsy what he does,

(01:02:04):
you know. And I was often on the receiving end
of the right. Yeah, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:02:08):
So do you remember like preparing for your scene with
Joe or you were just like, I'm just going to
show up. Whatever he does is what he's going to do.

Speaker 4 (01:02:15):
No, it was the latter. I mean I I mean
I prepared for it. I had my point of view
and its FITs' point of view, and I knew Joe.
I was excited to see what Joe did with the
speech because it was a great monologue, you know, but
I was it was like being billbo Baggins the dead
of smog from the dragon comes out breath breath of

(01:02:39):
fire at you.

Speaker 9 (01:02:40):
You know, you're like, like, I have a feeling that
There was like thunderous applause after he was done, after
every TAKEO or people were just like, oh my god,
Like the crew usually like bows down when when he
would deliver a performance like that or anyone else.

Speaker 4 (01:02:58):
It wasn't quite I think people work in kind of
awe of it. But it was such a racially charged
indictment of fits of me that I think it was
very uncomfortable. It was like, yeah, like shit just got real. Yeah,

(01:03:18):
and it's weird. You know. It's like, I'm Joe and
I are good friends, but and we've known each other
forever and work together many times, and but being on
the receiving end of that was not comfortable.

Speaker 1 (01:03:30):
It was, yeah, that was and you kind of you
kind of see fits is like vulnerability right in his innocence,
and he is like a little boy because for him
not to you know, all this stuff starts to sort
of hit him. And it's so interesting to see him
so like like you know again in awe and not
really like not believing what what Rowan is telling him. Like,

(01:03:52):
it's so interesting to see him so like like just
hit so hard with those words.

Speaker 5 (01:03:57):
You know.

Speaker 4 (01:03:57):
Yeah, in a sense it's I mean it's not it's
not it's not the whole picture, but it's all true.

Speaker 2 (01:04:03):
Yeah, And he's essentially saying, so all these things we
learned in Scandal, which like just like you are a
a white boy of privilege who didn't have to you know,
they're the things in Scandal verse that we're always like,
you know, I've worked twice as hard to get half
as much. Is not your story. That's that's Papa Pop's story,

(01:04:23):
and that's Olivia Pope's story, and that's not your story. Which, yeah,
it's gonna be wild watching this show back since George
Dloyd and all of these and the Black Lives Matter
movement and all this stuff, because we were before that,
like we were and even like we haven't even gone
to the lawn chair.

Speaker 3 (01:04:40):
Episod we've done any of that work.

Speaker 2 (01:04:43):
Like, we haven't gotten any of that. I also think
as actors were constantly told. I think in terms of
like you being like, oh could this could the show
hold these choices that are like that. I think we're
told all the time, like can you be smaller? Can
you be smaller? Like you know for those listening, like
a camera really is a microscope, and sometimes facial expressions
or things can look something you might do on a

(01:05:04):
stage to reach the back row you wouldn't do on
camera because it's too close up and it would look insane.
But Joe obviously like he don't give.

Speaker 3 (01:05:13):
A ship, you don't give a ship.

Speaker 1 (01:05:14):
But he's committed too, He's committed, so all that craziness
just works.

Speaker 4 (01:05:18):
And it's totally real. That's the other thing about as actors,
you know, like if you fucking commit, yeah, and it's
real for you, it's going to be real for whoever's receiving.
Look at hat and the opening scene, you know, she's
like Kate Burton too, is like so theatrical, which's sober
or so much more like Bellamy does is beautifully theatrical

(01:05:40):
and it's like or so a lot of our cast
is like too yeah, Jeff too man in this episode
the stuff with him and Danny, Oh my god, you
can see the three sixes on my yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:05:54):
Yeah, the devil came in all throat.

Speaker 2 (01:05:58):
We always talk about food on our podcast, but and
people eating in episodes because G and I are obsessed
with actors who eat or who don't eat, or you know,
you're carrying a coffee cup and it doesn't look hot or
doesn't look full. But has everyone worked with barf because
Jeff Perry did a good job in this episode throwing up.

Speaker 3 (01:06:14):
You did a really good job.

Speaker 4 (01:06:15):
Throwing up was some real barfing.

Speaker 2 (01:06:18):
It was a real He throws up because he realizes
that essentially Sally Langston murdering Daniel Douglas is kind of
his fall. And then we're going to do some tweets
to the time. Well, I really like these ones tonight
because people talk some shit about Quinn, which I always love.
Sissy Nane says, Quinn is, without a doubt, the worst

(01:06:41):
character on show.

Speaker 1 (01:06:44):
I loved you know it for in the beginning of
the show, when people would tweet like nasty stuff or
mean shit to me or to any of us. I
would get upset, and then I started to enjoy it now,
like that's what cracks me up.

Speaker 2 (01:06:57):
Love it. I love it. It's great what you do.
You don't want to be boring. You want people to
feel one way or the other.

Speaker 1 (01:07:05):
Someone tweeted at me one saying that I Huck looks
like he's constipated in every scene like it looked. They
were like, he's such a bad actor. He just looks
like he's constipated in every scene.

Speaker 3 (01:07:14):
Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (01:07:15):
Ezra Xx tweeted, my flight number is B six and
today is the thirteenth, so you know, I feel like
I'm on Scandal.

Speaker 3 (01:07:22):
So B six thirteen. Wish me luck.

Speaker 2 (01:07:25):
Oh h Cindy Capanera s you see Cap tweeted, I'm
going to yell a monologue at you about who I
am and who I'm not and why I am that
way hashtag scandal.

Speaker 1 (01:07:34):
Maris Kreisman tweeted a reality show competition based on Scandal
in which the loser of the week goes home to
the tagline.

Speaker 3 (01:07:41):
You're not a gladiator anymore. That's good.

Speaker 2 (01:07:44):
I like that and this is true. At shidmoh One,
Mike s wrote, I hate my winter coats. If only
I had an assortment of winter coats like Olivia Pope.
I feel like that to this day, never ever, has
there ever been a better coat back.

Speaker 3 (01:07:57):
So many clothes, so many gloves, so many bags? Who
has the time? Where did you have the time to shop?

Speaker 1 (01:08:03):
Like?

Speaker 2 (01:08:03):
Who?

Speaker 1 (01:08:04):
Like this is the busiest woman in DC and she
had like all the most amazing clothes.

Speaker 2 (01:08:09):
Next week, Listeners, Next up Word episode three eleven called
Ride Sally Ride.

Speaker 3 (01:08:15):
Another good one title. Thank you Gladiators, Thank you guys
for listening.

Speaker 1 (01:08:21):
Bye, Thank you guys for joining us on Unpacking the Toolbox.
If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe, share with your friends, rate,
or leave us a review.

Speaker 2 (01:08:33):
Scandal is executive produced by Sandy Bailey, Alex Alce, Lauren Homan,
Tyler Klang, and Gabrielle Collins. Our producer and editor is
Vince de Johnny, with music by Chad Fisher.

Speaker 1 (01:08:44):
Scandal is a production of ABC Signature, and you can
follow along by rewatching Scandal on Hulu.

Speaker 2 (01:08:49):
Unpacking the Toolbox is a production of Shondaland Audio in
partnership with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit
the iHeartRadio app, or anywhere you subscribe to your favorite shows.

Speaker 1 (01:09:00):
Y