June 9, 2023 • 33 mins
The lead detective takes a new tact in her investigation until Mark's wife, a professor of criminology on the same campus, has to un-ring some bells.
Which boxes contain what clues?
Attorney and host of the American Injustice podcast, David Rudolph explains how police investigators' errors lead to tragic outcomes. Dr. Judith Orloff indicates that the unconscious mind challenges our waking selves to get real about who we are.
Even with Mark’s attorney keeping the conversation honest, the detective in charge of the case thinks she sees through him.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Superstition here and jealousy superstition here and jealousy.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Okay, okay them with your call him with your car.
I'm on the international frequently.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Come here, tell me.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
What you'll tell you what you are.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
There was a time when eating classic stream sturdy first
time in any first KIDDI, do.
Speaker 4 (00:42):
You indeed think that either there is life on other planets?
Speaker 5 (00:45):
Stop?
Speaker 2 (00:46):
This would be more effective at midnight and pounding winds
and crushing thunder, And even then it wouldn't frighten anyone.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
The flames clean.
Speaker 6 (00:54):
My soul of evil, of.
Speaker 7 (00:57):
It's lust for blood.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Five second argal. Welcome to Ian Punnett's Vaudeville for the Frightened,
a fresh mix of audio, art, music, interviews and fiction
that will have you wondering what is there to be
(01:24):
afraid of? Here's the Deacon of the Dark, Ian Punnett.
Speaker 5 (01:33):
In episode two of Bottom of the Box title Spatter
Matters Matters, we will return to the theme of recurring
dreams and the line that exists, if there is one,
is between dreams and what some people call visions visions.
Doctor Judith Orloff, psychiatrist, author, EmPATH, and dream interpreter once
(01:58):
told me on a Christmas Eve about a decade ago
while I was wrapping packages in the background, that nightmares
are more important. They teach us more about ourselves than dreams.
And if there's a recurring dream in our life, it's
our subconscious trying to break through.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
And certainly, as a psychiatrist, you know, I see my
role as providing light and darkness for people. And because
the freedom comes from really freeing yourself up from all
that darkness that you're afraid of. But you have to
do it really little by little, and I think that's
why nightmares are so helpful. Now I have a section
(02:40):
and Emotional Freedom on the healing power of nightmares. And
let's say you have depression, or let's say you have
something inside of you that you're a little bit afraid
to deal with. You can ask a question to a
dream and just say, please show me what it is
I'm afraid of and how I can heal it, not
just what I'm afraid of. There has to be a solution,
(03:00):
and the key is to ask a very specific question
before you go to sleep at night. Only one question.
Don't ask more than one because then the answers will
get confused and then go to sleep, and first thing
in the morning, spend a few minutes of quiet time.
Don't talk right away, because when you engage the linear
mind in the morning, you won't be able to remember
(03:21):
your dreams. Then write down whatever comes and it could
be you're being chased by a malevolent pursuer on the
edge of a cliff, the kind of dream where you
wake up and go, oh, I'm so happy it was
only a dream. But to me, you need to know
who that pursuer is so you can free yourself. And
in the way you find out is that in the
daytime you say to yourself, all right, who was that face?
(03:44):
Was it my abusive father, wasn't my alcoholic mother? Was
it my ex wife who dumped me and left me
with my best friend? Who is this person pursuing me?
And once you can identify it, that's half the battle,
and dreams help you do that. So I just encourage everyone,
even if the dreams are frightening, try and see the
details of them so that you can free yourself, because
(04:07):
recurrent dreams only happen if you don't deal with that
unconscious material, let's say, being chased. You know, throughout your
life you might be on your deskbit having that same dream.
Speaker 5 (04:19):
But I keep thinking about what David Rudolph says too.
You remember David from the Netflix series The Staircase, is
Webby Award winning criminal justice podcast Abuse of Power, and
his book American Injustice Inside Stories from the Underbelly of
(04:40):
the criminal justice System. David talks about legitimate fears that
we should have regarding the demeanor of police. Maybe, in fact,
if I had it to do all over again, the
thing I would change about this next episode is not
making the police so polite such as it is episode
(05:04):
two of the Bottom of the Box, part of the
Vaudeville for the Frightened series performed by the Wildcat Community
Theater of the Air.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Next Ian Punnett's Vaudeville for the Frightened Use Your Ears
(05:39):
to Fight Your Fears Series one, The Bottom of the Box.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
This is the second recorded interview with doctor Mark Sturgis
on the evening of September twenty second, at eight pm.
Doctor Sturgis has not been mirandized as a courtesy. While
jurisdiction for the investigation is still under negotiation. Sergeant Fred
Ludeger from Campus Police is present, as is doctor mal Sturgis,
(06:09):
Doctor Sturgis wife of twenty one years, plus his attorney,
Chloe Wilson, who is here as an observer and advisor.
The campus is closed for investigation until after the memorial
service for Mary Kay Campbell on Thursday, so this interview
is being conducted at the Metro Station Interview Room number three.
Speaker 4 (06:28):
Please let the record show that my client is here voluntarily.
He's free to go at any time without his leaving
being considered a reflection of guild. He has not been
mirandized because he is not a suspect or a person
of interest for the purposes of this interview. He is
a concerned citizen and a potential witness before the fact
who's agreed to this interview to clear up any confusion.
(06:50):
From six forty five am this morning, he was going
to go to his box ser Lake cabin and relax,
but stayed in town to help. Furthermore, contour to what
we were promised two hours ago when we agreed to
voluntarily come in for another interview. Neither Sergeant Lueger or
Detective Brody have produced a tape, recording, a transcript, or
(07:11):
any proof of this alleged tip to campus security suggesting
that doctor Surgis was romantically involved with the victim, Mary
Kay Campbell. Until such time as we see any evidence
that this anonymous, erroneous claim was actually made, we will
refrain from discussing it. Detective Brody, do you have anything
(07:32):
to add.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Pursue it to our agreement. I would like to apologize
for my overly aggressive tone this morning and for causing
any temporary emotional conflict between doctor Sturgis and the other
doctor Sturgis. Preliminary ballistics reports confirmed that the bullet that
killed Mary Kay Campbell could not have been fired by
Mark Sturgis missing rifle. It was from an AR fifteen.
Speaker 8 (07:57):
I'm over it.
Speaker 6 (07:58):
I'm not.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Let's move on, Doctor Mark Sturgis. You have a statement
you would like to read.
Speaker 6 (08:04):
I do proceed.
Speaker 5 (08:08):
The nightmare that woke me up at two thirty this
morning is a variation of a memory I'd rather forget
when our daughter Avey was just a baby, and we're
not telling her about any of this for now. By
the way, we were driving down from Atlanta to see
my folks in Tampa for Thanksgiving. Mal had made a
(08:29):
bed in the back of our new station wagon, just
behind the back seat so we could switch off driving
and sleeping. It was a difficult space to get in
and out of without help, and we had pulled off
the highway and we had switched places at an abandoned
gas station. Just before Mal was starting to drive away,
(08:51):
a guy with a bloody nose appeared out of nowhere,
mumbling about a Kleenex or something, and she started walking
closer to him so that she could hear.
Speaker 6 (09:04):
In the dark, and I am trapped.
Speaker 5 (09:08):
After she turned around and started walking back to the
car to get a Kleenex or whatever for this guy.
I started saying to her, in a non panic tone, flatly, get.
Speaker 8 (09:20):
In the car.
Speaker 6 (09:22):
Get in the car.
Speaker 5 (09:24):
Then the guy with the bloody face starts following her
back to her open driver's side door, so I started
saying it louder and more urgently, get in the car.
That's when the headlights of a car neither of us
had noticed before but apparently had been there the whole time,
came on and started to roll slowly behind the bloody
(09:49):
guy's face. At the last second, she heard me much
more passionately saying get in the car, and it.
Speaker 6 (09:59):
Was like a bell was broken.
Speaker 5 (10:01):
Mal jumped into the car and started driving, returned back
onto the interstate, and we were gone safely toward Tampa.
But this is the nightmare part in my dream. Detective
Brody mal is shot dead in the front seat, and
the guy with the bloody nose turns toward me just
(10:23):
before I wake up. My recurring nightmare is centered and
how badly it could have gone, and how powerless I
would have been to stop it. Not a celebration of
being single again. Your comment that ended our interview, Detective
(10:43):
Brody was just so ugly and hurtful. Now I can
handle that, But you were in my house, using my
friendship with Fred to see what would happen if you
drove a wedge between me and my wife and Fred.
That was irresponsible and ambitious of you at the potential
(11:08):
expense of my marriage and my standing on this campus.
Speaker 9 (11:12):
Well, that wasn't my intent, Mark. I was just trying
to get you cleared as fast as possible. That's why
I brought Detective Brody over.
Speaker 8 (11:22):
I'm over it.
Speaker 6 (11:23):
I'm still not, but let's move on.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Can you verify that story?
Speaker 5 (11:29):
I called the GBI, the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, but
they laughed it off. Actually, the agent I spoke with joked, well,
this story is nothing to sneeze at. We'll get right
on the case of the Kleenex killer. And then he
hung up on me, and no, I cannot verify that happened.
Speaker 4 (11:51):
Now it would be a good time for you to
tell us more about this so called anonymous tip.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Campus police do not record incoming calls to the office
only nine one, but the third shift officer who took
the call, Officer Goodwin, which had been bounced to his
cell phone, wrote down the tip verbatim. The caller was female,
neutral accent, sounded educated and middle aged. He wrote in
his notes, this is what she said. You need to
(12:18):
know that the director of the writing program has been
sleeping with or trying to sleep with, all of his
female grad students. You need to start looking into that.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
Uh huh.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
What I heard is that at no point is my
client's name mentioned in the recording, nor is the name
of Mary Kay Campbell.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
I believe the tipster was very clear that the subject
of the call was the dean of the writing program.
That would be doctor Sturgis.
Speaker 5 (12:44):
But I'm not I'm the acting dean of the writing program.
I'm just pro tem as a favor to the department.
Speaker 8 (12:53):
Mark is being humble. He's a lock on becoming a
dean on this campus. Everybody loves him, and the university
is two broke to conduct a nationwide search these days,
so they'll be filling his position from within.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
You sound a little jealous of doctor Sturgis.
Speaker 8 (13:08):
Doctor Sturgis, I mean, who wouldn't be. He's doctor popular
and he's the luckiest guy on the planet. If there's
a raffle or a drawing for anything, chances are you're
gonna hear his name being announced as the winner.
Speaker 5 (13:19):
That's kind of a compulsion. I can't pass a drawing
box without entering it.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
My client gets one hundred emails a week from all
his grad students, male and female. There's nothing incriminating about
that email. It just says dear Mark and then I.
It doesn't say my dearest Mark or my darling Mark.
Just a typical professional format that is completely unrelated.
Speaker 5 (13:44):
All I can tell you is that you can search
all my messages from Mary Kay Campbell.
Speaker 6 (13:50):
I have nothing to hide.
Speaker 4 (13:52):
Sergeant Ludeger, Can you walk us through the receipt of
this message?
Speaker 9 (13:56):
Just for the record, Uh, yeah, AT's see it.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
See yeah, Okay.
Speaker 9 (14:03):
At six oh seven on September twenty second, while standing
guard outside the main entrance to Francis Hall as Metro
Police processed the crime scene in doctor Sturgis's office, a
campus security office call was forwarded to Officer Goodman's cell
phone purportedly about a sexual relationship between doctor Sturgis and
the victim. The tipster dictated a message to Officer Goodman,
(14:26):
but the caller sounded fuzzy, as Officer Goodwin described, and
then hung up. The call lasted under a minute. Officer
Goodman notified me of the tip. I then shared that
with Detective Brody because it was relevant, and I mean,
Mark and I are friends. I didn't want the appearance
of impropriety based on that information. While the crime scene
(14:49):
was still being processed, Detective Brody asked me to take
her to doctor Sturgis's.
Speaker 6 (14:53):
House and asked Cam about the tip.
Speaker 9 (14:55):
I get an impression of a potential suspect.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
I'm madding for the benefit of the recording, alleged sexual relationship,
and that again, Doctor Sturgis was not mentioned by name
in that accusation, so noted Detective Brody, what proof do
you have that this call happened? As Sergeant Ludeger described it.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Are you accusing one of Sergeant Luteger's campus police officers
of making up a lie?
Speaker 4 (15:23):
Just asking did you check the call logs and all
the time codes that verify how and when a call
was received.
Speaker 6 (15:29):
I can do that tomorrow and get back to you.
Speaker 4 (15:31):
That'll be fine.
Speaker 8 (15:32):
At the risk of sounding gruesome, Mary sees some of
the crime scene photos. I don't want to look at
anything too bloody of poor Mary Kay, who was a
very nice, very smart girl in my opinion. But I
just want to see what the interior of the office
looked like.
Speaker 9 (15:47):
Uh, Detective, I believe that's your call.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
These are from across the room, and this is all
I'm willing to show you.
Speaker 8 (16:00):
That's Mark's office. Mark. Isn't that your old high back
office chair? Please look?
Speaker 5 (16:06):
Yeah, that's my old chair, but that's not.
Speaker 8 (16:08):
My And isn't that your old faded Atlanta Braves baseball
cap the victim is wearing with her ponytail sticking out.
Speaker 6 (16:15):
Uh huh, pears to be.
Speaker 8 (16:16):
I'm your wife and I'm asking you to be honest.
Did you give Mary kayear old Brave's hat as a present?
Speaker 6 (16:22):
No? I did not.
Speaker 5 (16:24):
Last time I saw it. It was hanging off the
shelf in my office.
Speaker 6 (16:28):
But that's not Mark.
Speaker 8 (16:29):
I'm going to stop you right there because I've heard
enough and I'm going to step out for a while.
Speaker 6 (16:33):
I didn't give it to her.
Speaker 8 (16:35):
Oh, I know. I'm just gonna be gone for a bit.
Speaker 4 (16:38):
How long? Where are you going?
Speaker 8 (16:40):
Fred? If you can call ahead and ask your people
to let me in the building, I'll take a few
snaps with my cell phone there and just one quick
photo of Mark's office from the hallway should take about
twenty minutes. Tops, Chloe, I don't mean to tell you
your business, but I would end this interview until you
hear from me.
Speaker 6 (16:56):
Where are you going? Why are you leaving?
Speaker 8 (17:00):
Well, the way I figure it, somebody has to prove
your innocence once and for all, sweetie, or the cops
will never find Mary Kay's real killer. Look for my text.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
I wonder what you thought we missed?
Speaker 4 (17:13):
So people, I guess it's my turn to declare this
meeting officially over keep your phones on.
Speaker 5 (17:23):
It all seems so innocent, doesn't it, you know? I
mean this fictional story so far of a guy who's
in the crosshairs of a buy the book, local detective
who's investigating a murder, maybe feeling a little departmental pressure
enough that she starts to swap a lack of evidence
(17:45):
or even relevant testimony for inconsistencies, and some circumstantial incidences
of you know, like a dream that seems incriminating, or
maybe an anonymous phone tip that doesn't even name the suspect.
It makes you wonder how many people in America have
(18:07):
been put to death for this, or less who have
been found guilty of capital one murder on this kind
of thing alone. According to attorney David Rudolph from the
Netflix series The Staircase, his Webby Award winning criminal justice
(18:28):
podcast Abuse of Power, and the author of American Injustice
Inside Stories from the Underbelly of the Criminal Justice System,
the concept that innocent people have been murdered by the state,
officially put to death for crimes they did not commit,
(18:48):
has been the focus of much of his work.
Speaker 7 (18:51):
I guess the first question is are we talking about
legally executed if we talking about lynchings coming back into
history because or we're talking about there are hundreds, if
not thousands, But let's confine the discussion to people who
have been legally, so to speak, put to death by
(19:11):
the state. You know, it's a great question, and I
think the legal system has fought mightily to keep the
answer from ever being known. You know, I'm aware, and
we covered this on one of the cases we covered
on the Use of Power podcast last year, a case
(19:32):
out of Tennessee where a family member has been trying
to get DNA testing done after an execution to prove
that the person her relative was not guilty, and the
state has fought tooth and now to keep that DNA
(19:54):
evidence from being disclosed successfully so far.
Speaker 5 (20:00):
Why what's the state's argument, what's the state's rationale?
Speaker 7 (20:04):
Well, you know, it's a technical argument. It's it's that
the statute that they're seeking the relief under doesn't apply
once somebody has already been executed. Of course, in that
particular case, the person tried to get the DNA evidence
before they were executed, and the state raised a different argument,
(20:25):
technical argument, So there is no rationale. You know, the
rationale is is a technicality under the law, you know
how the statute is worded. But you know that's a
fig leaf. And obviously what's going on there is that
the state does not want anyone to prove that it
(20:45):
put to death somebody who was innocent. There's a very
good chance there was a person in Texas who was
convicted of killing his children in a fire.
Speaker 6 (20:57):
And remember the story.
Speaker 7 (20:59):
Yeah, and there's very good evidence that the expert testimony
in that case was completely fabricated and he's probably innocent.
But how do you prove a negative, especially when somebody
has been killed Already.
Speaker 5 (21:18):
Let's put a pin in that thought that innocent people
have been executed in that guilty have gone free all
because of police tunnel vision, confirmation bias or prosecutorial cya
Until next episode. David has an amazing story to tell then.
(21:40):
But on the table still is doctor Judy Orlof's question
about deciphering recurring nightmares and what they're trying to tell us.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
You can ask a question to a dream and just say,
please show me what it is I'm afraid of and
how I can heal it.
Speaker 5 (21:56):
Now Candidly, I wrote and produced this podcast series, so
I already know the answer to that one regarding doctor
Mark Sturgis. What I have yet to figure out is
what is the difference between an instructive dream or nightmare
as doctor Judy Orloff describes them. And a vision that
(22:18):
comes to us when we're sleeping. For that answer, I
return to my friend Ernie Lapointe in this vaudeville for
the Frightened.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Next Ian Punnet's Vaudeville for the Frightened Use Your Ears
(22:50):
to Fight Your Fears Series one, the Bottom of the Box.
Speaker 5 (22:56):
If you have a story about a vision you've had,
then you too may have insight about the difference between
dreams and visions, and maybe something to say about fear
as well. Feel free to reach out and follow me
on Twitter at Deacon Punnett, where I will regularly respond.
(23:19):
I have visions from time to time, I think, but
they usually come to me in dreams, which is why
the difference confuses me. Ernie Lapointe has a clearer understanding
of what is a dream and what is a vision.
One he was raised with in his Lakota tradition as
(23:39):
the great grandson of Sitting Bowl.
Speaker 10 (23:42):
Most of the messages that you get is through vision quest,
you know, either through the ceremony or you know, maybe
through a purification lodge. A dream, basically, you know, is
a it's personal to you about you know, whatever the
(24:03):
dream you have, you have to you know, like they
told me. You know, you should figure this out yourself.
You know, it's it's your own personal walk. And then
the vision is a direction or a way that you
need to go towards the future or what you what
(24:24):
you what they call it, what you're called to do.
So you know, the difference between vision and a dream
is one is personal. You have to uh figure it
out yourself what your dream is. I know the medicine
man used to people come to him and ask him,
I had a dream. I need to tell me and
(24:46):
and you know, after a while he got kind of
he says, I'm not a dream interpreter. You know, you
have to interpret it yourself as a human being. So
you know, I understand where he's coming from, because you know,
I mean a vision they can you know when you
tell him what the vision you had is, and he
knows that, you know you're going in the right direction.
(25:08):
You know, if you need direction, you have to speak
solely to your own spirits. So you know, it's it's
not a complicated issue, but you know some people make
it complicated, you know.
Speaker 5 (25:21):
And yet it was a vision to your great grandfather
then about what was going to happen when George Armstrong
Custer was on the march.
Speaker 6 (25:34):
He had a vision.
Speaker 5 (25:36):
Can you tell me more about his vision as it's
passed down in your family tradition to you and what
it meant to him?
Speaker 10 (25:44):
Yeah, it was. It was he had the vision in
the sun dance when he was doing sundance and I
think it was a third day. He had this vision
of the clouds opened up and his he said, it
looked like grasshoppers, you know, falling down. But he looked
(26:05):
again and there were soldiers falling upside down into the
camp into a camp. You know he's seen in his vision.
He had this camp there and they're falling in there.
And the voice from the creator told him, he says,
I give you these because they have no ears. And
(26:25):
you know the again, you know when you have a
vision like that, they don't explain to you what this is.
You know what it is. You should know what it
is if you're a spiritual person and if you have
you know, if you live a spiritual real life. So
he knew what was coming back. And it was right
after that when he told the people about his vision.
(26:49):
Crook came up the roast bud and try to attack him,
and Crazy Horse in his group went and chased him
all and they thought that was the vision. He said, no,
it's not the vision. And the food was running out,
so they moved for the west to a little big
on river and that's when Custer came. So that was
(27:12):
the vision. So, you know, it's basically you have to
be interpret these things yourself. You have to know what
it is that they show you what it is you
have to do. And sometimes, you know, they tell you
things that you know, it's kind of like you get
sometimes you get what you need, not what you want.
(27:35):
You know, you have to understand what it is. And
you know, I see people get angry, you know a
little bit because what they want it doesn't happen, you know,
but they give them, they tell them what they need.
That's the difference. You know, a vision you can under
(27:55):
you can be told by the spirits in the ceremony,
well what the outcome would be. But a dream is
up to you to decipher what it is.
Speaker 5 (28:07):
So can you give me, Can you give me an
example in your own life when you were either coming
out of the Vietnam experience or for what any other reason,
when a dream gave you a glimpse of something that
or it forced you to look inside yourself for an
(28:30):
answer about something that you were wrestling with.
Speaker 10 (28:34):
Well, you know, the dreams that I had were flat
about the war. You know, I'm always seeing the face
come before me as the first man I killed at Vietnam.
He always hunted me. And you know, it was driving
me crazy because I don't know, maybe it was my
guilt in me of the war thing, but you know,
(28:59):
that's that's what I started running from it. I take
I'll go somewhere else and I'm good for a while
and any kids. And I started abusing alcohol, you know,
because I figured that's the way to numb it, because
you don't remember it, but actually all the people around
you know that you're you're reliving that that dream again.
(29:20):
So that was my thing. But that Vietnam experience over
wrote any dreams I ever had.
Speaker 5 (29:28):
Ernie will share his vision for a more hopeful future
at the end of this series. It's a real vision
he had. But this podcast is about more than just
dreams versus visions. Nothing very scary about that, except that
this vision or recurring dream at an event, whatever it is,
(29:48):
that's still chasing Doctor Mark Sturgis of something he has
yet to reconcile concerns a roadside killer that he's being
called to confront. That is the core of this story
and we are nowhere near getting to the bottom of
that yet. First we'll return to the reflections on our
(30:11):
justice system from David Rudolph with a story about a
former client of his that you won't believe. Also a
couple words about police intuition that Detective Brody from our
story claims to have from an actual police instructor, SWAT trainer,
cold case detective and UFO author Greg Lawson. As we
(30:35):
continue to explore the answers that await us all at
the bottom of the box the next episode.
Speaker 6 (30:43):
Of Vaudeville for the Frighten.
Speaker 5 (30:50):
This episode of Vaudeville for the Frightened featured Andrew and
Jen Smith. Gabrielle Warrender, Marjorie Punnett and Ed Weigel are
announcer and friend. The theme for Vaudeviilt for the Frightened
was written by Andrew Clark and performed by Ryan Winters
and Pistol Beauty. Original music by Colby Van Camp, engineered
(31:13):
by Jacob Cummings, Dawson Wagner, Colby Van Camp, Mason Camara
and Adolfoblanco. Special thanks to Marjorie Punnet, Corny Cole, Lisa Lyon,
Chris Borros, Bill May, Tom dan Eer and Julie Talbot.
Speaker 6 (31:29):
And thank you Joe Brandmeier.
Speaker 11 (31:33):
This has been a fourth Down and ten productions
Speaker 3 (32:18):
SUSS
Superstition here and jealousy superstition here and jealousy.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Okay, okay them with your call him with your car.
I'm on the international frequently.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Come here, tell me.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
What you'll tell you what you are.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
There was a time when eating classic stream sturdy first
time in any first KIDDI, do.
Speaker 4 (00:42):
You indeed think that either there is life on other planets?
Speaker 5 (00:45):
Stop?
Speaker 2 (00:46):
This would be more effective at midnight and pounding winds
and crushing thunder, And even then it wouldn't frighten anyone.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
The flames clean.
Speaker 6 (00:54):
My soul of evil, of.
Speaker 7 (00:57):
It's lust for blood.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Five second argal. Welcome to Ian Punnett's Vaudeville for the Frightened,
a fresh mix of audio, art, music, interviews and fiction
that will have you wondering what is there to be
(01:24):
afraid of? Here's the Deacon of the Dark, Ian Punnett.
Speaker 5 (01:33):
In episode two of Bottom of the Box title Spatter
Matters Matters, we will return to the theme of recurring
dreams and the line that exists, if there is one,
is between dreams and what some people call visions visions.
Doctor Judith Orloff, psychiatrist, author, EmPATH, and dream interpreter once
(01:58):
told me on a Christmas Eve about a decade ago
while I was wrapping packages in the background, that nightmares
are more important. They teach us more about ourselves than dreams.
And if there's a recurring dream in our life, it's
our subconscious trying to break through.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
And certainly, as a psychiatrist, you know, I see my
role as providing light and darkness for people. And because
the freedom comes from really freeing yourself up from all
that darkness that you're afraid of. But you have to
do it really little by little, and I think that's
why nightmares are so helpful. Now I have a section
(02:40):
and Emotional Freedom on the healing power of nightmares. And
let's say you have depression, or let's say you have
something inside of you that you're a little bit afraid
to deal with. You can ask a question to a
dream and just say, please show me what it is
I'm afraid of and how I can heal it, not
just what I'm afraid of. There has to be a solution,
(03:00):
and the key is to ask a very specific question
before you go to sleep at night. Only one question.
Don't ask more than one because then the answers will
get confused and then go to sleep, and first thing
in the morning, spend a few minutes of quiet time.
Don't talk right away, because when you engage the linear
mind in the morning, you won't be able to remember
(03:21):
your dreams. Then write down whatever comes and it could
be you're being chased by a malevolent pursuer on the
edge of a cliff, the kind of dream where you
wake up and go, oh, I'm so happy it was
only a dream. But to me, you need to know
who that pursuer is so you can free yourself. And
in the way you find out is that in the
daytime you say to yourself, all right, who was that face?
(03:44):
Was it my abusive father, wasn't my alcoholic mother? Was
it my ex wife who dumped me and left me
with my best friend? Who is this person pursuing me?
And once you can identify it, that's half the battle,
and dreams help you do that. So I just encourage everyone,
even if the dreams are frightening, try and see the
details of them so that you can free yourself, because
(04:07):
recurrent dreams only happen if you don't deal with that
unconscious material, let's say, being chased. You know, throughout your
life you might be on your deskbit having that same dream.
Speaker 5 (04:19):
But I keep thinking about what David Rudolph says too.
You remember David from the Netflix series The Staircase, is
Webby Award winning criminal justice podcast Abuse of Power, and
his book American Injustice Inside Stories from the Underbelly of
(04:40):
the criminal justice System. David talks about legitimate fears that
we should have regarding the demeanor of police. Maybe, in fact,
if I had it to do all over again, the
thing I would change about this next episode is not
making the police so polite such as it is episode
(05:04):
two of the Bottom of the Box, part of the
Vaudeville for the Frightened series performed by the Wildcat Community
Theater of the Air.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Next Ian Punnett's Vaudeville for the Frightened Use Your Ears
(05:39):
to Fight Your Fears Series one, The Bottom of the Box.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
This is the second recorded interview with doctor Mark Sturgis
on the evening of September twenty second, at eight pm.
Doctor Sturgis has not been mirandized as a courtesy. While
jurisdiction for the investigation is still under negotiation. Sergeant Fred
Ludeger from Campus Police is present, as is doctor mal Sturgis,
(06:09):
Doctor Sturgis wife of twenty one years, plus his attorney,
Chloe Wilson, who is here as an observer and advisor.
The campus is closed for investigation until after the memorial
service for Mary Kay Campbell on Thursday, so this interview
is being conducted at the Metro Station Interview Room number three.
Speaker 4 (06:28):
Please let the record show that my client is here voluntarily.
He's free to go at any time without his leaving
being considered a reflection of guild. He has not been
mirandized because he is not a suspect or a person
of interest for the purposes of this interview. He is
a concerned citizen and a potential witness before the fact
who's agreed to this interview to clear up any confusion.
(06:50):
From six forty five am this morning, he was going
to go to his box ser Lake cabin and relax,
but stayed in town to help. Furthermore, contour to what
we were promised two hours ago when we agreed to
voluntarily come in for another interview. Neither Sergeant Lueger or
Detective Brody have produced a tape, recording, a transcript, or
(07:11):
any proof of this alleged tip to campus security suggesting
that doctor Surgis was romantically involved with the victim, Mary
Kay Campbell. Until such time as we see any evidence
that this anonymous, erroneous claim was actually made, we will
refrain from discussing it. Detective Brody, do you have anything
(07:32):
to add.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Pursue it to our agreement. I would like to apologize
for my overly aggressive tone this morning and for causing
any temporary emotional conflict between doctor Sturgis and the other
doctor Sturgis. Preliminary ballistics reports confirmed that the bullet that
killed Mary Kay Campbell could not have been fired by
Mark Sturgis missing rifle. It was from an AR fifteen.
Speaker 8 (07:57):
I'm over it.
Speaker 6 (07:58):
I'm not.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Let's move on, Doctor Mark Sturgis. You have a statement
you would like to read.
Speaker 6 (08:04):
I do proceed.
Speaker 5 (08:08):
The nightmare that woke me up at two thirty this
morning is a variation of a memory I'd rather forget
when our daughter Avey was just a baby, and we're
not telling her about any of this for now. By
the way, we were driving down from Atlanta to see
my folks in Tampa for Thanksgiving. Mal had made a
(08:29):
bed in the back of our new station wagon, just
behind the back seat so we could switch off driving
and sleeping. It was a difficult space to get in
and out of without help, and we had pulled off
the highway and we had switched places at an abandoned
gas station. Just before Mal was starting to drive away,
(08:51):
a guy with a bloody nose appeared out of nowhere,
mumbling about a Kleenex or something, and she started walking
closer to him so that she could hear.
Speaker 6 (09:04):
In the dark, and I am trapped.
Speaker 5 (09:08):
After she turned around and started walking back to the
car to get a Kleenex or whatever for this guy.
I started saying to her, in a non panic tone, flatly, get.
Speaker 8 (09:20):
In the car.
Speaker 6 (09:22):
Get in the car.
Speaker 5 (09:24):
Then the guy with the bloody face starts following her
back to her open driver's side door, so I started
saying it louder and more urgently, get in the car.
That's when the headlights of a car neither of us
had noticed before but apparently had been there the whole time,
came on and started to roll slowly behind the bloody
(09:49):
guy's face. At the last second, she heard me much
more passionately saying get in the car, and it.
Speaker 6 (09:59):
Was like a bell was broken.
Speaker 5 (10:01):
Mal jumped into the car and started driving, returned back
onto the interstate, and we were gone safely toward Tampa.
But this is the nightmare part in my dream. Detective
Brody mal is shot dead in the front seat, and
the guy with the bloody nose turns toward me just
(10:23):
before I wake up. My recurring nightmare is centered and
how badly it could have gone, and how powerless I
would have been to stop it. Not a celebration of
being single again. Your comment that ended our interview, Detective
(10:43):
Brody was just so ugly and hurtful. Now I can
handle that, But you were in my house, using my
friendship with Fred to see what would happen if you
drove a wedge between me and my wife and Fred.
That was irresponsible and ambitious of you at the potential
(11:08):
expense of my marriage and my standing on this campus.
Speaker 9 (11:12):
Well, that wasn't my intent, Mark. I was just trying
to get you cleared as fast as possible. That's why
I brought Detective Brody over.
Speaker 8 (11:22):
I'm over it.
Speaker 6 (11:23):
I'm still not, but let's move on.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Can you verify that story?
Speaker 5 (11:29):
I called the GBI, the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, but
they laughed it off. Actually, the agent I spoke with joked, well,
this story is nothing to sneeze at. We'll get right
on the case of the Kleenex killer. And then he
hung up on me, and no, I cannot verify that happened.
Speaker 4 (11:51):
Now it would be a good time for you to
tell us more about this so called anonymous tip.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Campus police do not record incoming calls to the office
only nine one, but the third shift officer who took
the call, Officer Goodwin, which had been bounced to his
cell phone, wrote down the tip verbatim. The caller was female,
neutral accent, sounded educated and middle aged. He wrote in
his notes, this is what she said. You need to
(12:18):
know that the director of the writing program has been
sleeping with or trying to sleep with, all of his
female grad students. You need to start looking into that.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
Uh huh.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
What I heard is that at no point is my
client's name mentioned in the recording, nor is the name
of Mary Kay Campbell.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
I believe the tipster was very clear that the subject
of the call was the dean of the writing program.
That would be doctor Sturgis.
Speaker 5 (12:44):
But I'm not I'm the acting dean of the writing program.
I'm just pro tem as a favor to the department.
Speaker 8 (12:53):
Mark is being humble. He's a lock on becoming a
dean on this campus. Everybody loves him, and the university
is two broke to conduct a nationwide search these days,
so they'll be filling his position from within.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
You sound a little jealous of doctor Sturgis.
Speaker 8 (13:08):
Doctor Sturgis, I mean, who wouldn't be. He's doctor popular
and he's the luckiest guy on the planet. If there's
a raffle or a drawing for anything, chances are you're
gonna hear his name being announced as the winner.
Speaker 5 (13:19):
That's kind of a compulsion. I can't pass a drawing
box without entering it.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
My client gets one hundred emails a week from all
his grad students, male and female. There's nothing incriminating about
that email. It just says dear Mark and then I.
It doesn't say my dearest Mark or my darling Mark.
Just a typical professional format that is completely unrelated.
Speaker 5 (13:44):
All I can tell you is that you can search
all my messages from Mary Kay Campbell.
Speaker 6 (13:50):
I have nothing to hide.
Speaker 4 (13:52):
Sergeant Ludeger, Can you walk us through the receipt of
this message?
Speaker 9 (13:56):
Just for the record, Uh, yeah, AT's see it.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
See yeah, Okay.
Speaker 9 (14:03):
At six oh seven on September twenty second, while standing
guard outside the main entrance to Francis Hall as Metro
Police processed the crime scene in doctor Sturgis's office, a
campus security office call was forwarded to Officer Goodman's cell
phone purportedly about a sexual relationship between doctor Sturgis and
the victim. The tipster dictated a message to Officer Goodman,
(14:26):
but the caller sounded fuzzy, as Officer Goodwin described, and
then hung up. The call lasted under a minute. Officer
Goodman notified me of the tip. I then shared that
with Detective Brody because it was relevant, and I mean,
Mark and I are friends. I didn't want the appearance
of impropriety based on that information. While the crime scene
(14:49):
was still being processed, Detective Brody asked me to take
her to doctor Sturgis's.
Speaker 6 (14:53):
House and asked Cam about the tip.
Speaker 9 (14:55):
I get an impression of a potential suspect.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
I'm madding for the benefit of the recording, alleged sexual relationship,
and that again, Doctor Sturgis was not mentioned by name
in that accusation, so noted Detective Brody, what proof do
you have that this call happened? As Sergeant Ludeger described it.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Are you accusing one of Sergeant Luteger's campus police officers
of making up a lie?
Speaker 4 (15:23):
Just asking did you check the call logs and all
the time codes that verify how and when a call
was received.
Speaker 6 (15:29):
I can do that tomorrow and get back to you.
Speaker 4 (15:31):
That'll be fine.
Speaker 8 (15:32):
At the risk of sounding gruesome, Mary sees some of
the crime scene photos. I don't want to look at
anything too bloody of poor Mary Kay, who was a
very nice, very smart girl in my opinion. But I
just want to see what the interior of the office
looked like.
Speaker 9 (15:47):
Uh, Detective, I believe that's your call.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
These are from across the room, and this is all
I'm willing to show you.
Speaker 8 (16:00):
That's Mark's office. Mark. Isn't that your old high back
office chair? Please look?
Speaker 5 (16:06):
Yeah, that's my old chair, but that's not.
Speaker 8 (16:08):
My And isn't that your old faded Atlanta Braves baseball
cap the victim is wearing with her ponytail sticking out.
Speaker 6 (16:15):
Uh huh, pears to be.
Speaker 8 (16:16):
I'm your wife and I'm asking you to be honest.
Did you give Mary kayear old Brave's hat as a present?
Speaker 6 (16:22):
No? I did not.
Speaker 5 (16:24):
Last time I saw it. It was hanging off the
shelf in my office.
Speaker 6 (16:28):
But that's not Mark.
Speaker 8 (16:29):
I'm going to stop you right there because I've heard
enough and I'm going to step out for a while.
Speaker 6 (16:33):
I didn't give it to her.
Speaker 8 (16:35):
Oh, I know. I'm just gonna be gone for a bit.
Speaker 4 (16:38):
How long? Where are you going?
Speaker 8 (16:40):
Fred? If you can call ahead and ask your people
to let me in the building, I'll take a few
snaps with my cell phone there and just one quick
photo of Mark's office from the hallway should take about
twenty minutes. Tops, Chloe, I don't mean to tell you
your business, but I would end this interview until you
hear from me.
Speaker 6 (16:56):
Where are you going? Why are you leaving?
Speaker 8 (17:00):
Well, the way I figure it, somebody has to prove
your innocence once and for all, sweetie, or the cops
will never find Mary Kay's real killer. Look for my text.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
I wonder what you thought we missed?
Speaker 4 (17:13):
So people, I guess it's my turn to declare this
meeting officially over keep your phones on.
Speaker 5 (17:23):
It all seems so innocent, doesn't it, you know? I
mean this fictional story so far of a guy who's
in the crosshairs of a buy the book, local detective
who's investigating a murder, maybe feeling a little departmental pressure
enough that she starts to swap a lack of evidence
(17:45):
or even relevant testimony for inconsistencies, and some circumstantial incidences
of you know, like a dream that seems incriminating, or
maybe an anonymous phone tip that doesn't even name the suspect.
It makes you wonder how many people in America have
(18:07):
been put to death for this, or less who have
been found guilty of capital one murder on this kind
of thing alone. According to attorney David Rudolph from the
Netflix series The Staircase, his Webby Award winning criminal justice
(18:28):
podcast Abuse of Power, and the author of American Injustice
Inside Stories from the Underbelly of the Criminal Justice System,
the concept that innocent people have been murdered by the state,
officially put to death for crimes they did not commit,
(18:48):
has been the focus of much of his work.
Speaker 7 (18:51):
I guess the first question is are we talking about
legally executed if we talking about lynchings coming back into
history because or we're talking about there are hundreds, if
not thousands, But let's confine the discussion to people who
have been legally, so to speak, put to death by
(19:11):
the state. You know, it's a great question, and I
think the legal system has fought mightily to keep the
answer from ever being known. You know, I'm aware, and
we covered this on one of the cases we covered
on the Use of Power podcast last year, a case
(19:32):
out of Tennessee where a family member has been trying
to get DNA testing done after an execution to prove
that the person her relative was not guilty, and the
state has fought tooth and now to keep that DNA
(19:54):
evidence from being disclosed successfully so far.
Speaker 5 (20:00):
Why what's the state's argument, what's the state's rationale?
Speaker 7 (20:04):
Well, you know, it's a technical argument. It's it's that
the statute that they're seeking the relief under doesn't apply
once somebody has already been executed. Of course, in that
particular case, the person tried to get the DNA evidence
before they were executed, and the state raised a different argument,
(20:25):
technical argument, So there is no rationale. You know, the
rationale is is a technicality under the law, you know
how the statute is worded. But you know that's a
fig leaf. And obviously what's going on there is that
the state does not want anyone to prove that it
(20:45):
put to death somebody who was innocent. There's a very
good chance there was a person in Texas who was
convicted of killing his children in a fire.
Speaker 6 (20:57):
And remember the story.
Speaker 7 (20:59):
Yeah, and there's very good evidence that the expert testimony
in that case was completely fabricated and he's probably innocent.
But how do you prove a negative, especially when somebody
has been killed Already.
Speaker 5 (21:18):
Let's put a pin in that thought that innocent people
have been executed in that guilty have gone free all
because of police tunnel vision, confirmation bias or prosecutorial cya
Until next episode. David has an amazing story to tell then.
(21:40):
But on the table still is doctor Judy Orlof's question
about deciphering recurring nightmares and what they're trying to tell us.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
You can ask a question to a dream and just say,
please show me what it is I'm afraid of and
how I can heal it.
Speaker 5 (21:56):
Now Candidly, I wrote and produced this podcast series, so
I already know the answer to that one regarding doctor
Mark Sturgis. What I have yet to figure out is
what is the difference between an instructive dream or nightmare
as doctor Judy Orloff describes them. And a vision that
(22:18):
comes to us when we're sleeping. For that answer, I
return to my friend Ernie Lapointe in this vaudeville for
the Frightened.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Next Ian Punnet's Vaudeville for the Frightened Use Your Ears
(22:50):
to Fight Your Fears Series one, the Bottom of the Box.
Speaker 5 (22:56):
If you have a story about a vision you've had,
then you too may have insight about the difference between
dreams and visions, and maybe something to say about fear
as well. Feel free to reach out and follow me
on Twitter at Deacon Punnett, where I will regularly respond.
(23:19):
I have visions from time to time, I think, but
they usually come to me in dreams, which is why
the difference confuses me. Ernie Lapointe has a clearer understanding
of what is a dream and what is a vision.
One he was raised with in his Lakota tradition as
(23:39):
the great grandson of Sitting Bowl.
Speaker 10 (23:42):
Most of the messages that you get is through vision quest,
you know, either through the ceremony or you know, maybe
through a purification lodge. A dream, basically, you know, is
a it's personal to you about you know, whatever the
(24:03):
dream you have, you have to you know, like they
told me. You know, you should figure this out yourself.
You know, it's it's your own personal walk. And then
the vision is a direction or a way that you
need to go towards the future or what you what
(24:24):
you what they call it, what you're called to do.
So you know, the difference between vision and a dream
is one is personal. You have to uh figure it
out yourself what your dream is. I know the medicine
man used to people come to him and ask him,
I had a dream. I need to tell me and
(24:46):
and you know, after a while he got kind of
he says, I'm not a dream interpreter. You know, you
have to interpret it yourself as a human being. So
you know, I understand where he's coming from, because you know,
I mean a vision they can you know when you
tell him what the vision you had is, and he
knows that, you know you're going in the right direction.
(25:08):
You know, if you need direction, you have to speak
solely to your own spirits. So you know, it's it's
not a complicated issue, but you know some people make
it complicated, you know.
Speaker 5 (25:21):
And yet it was a vision to your great grandfather
then about what was going to happen when George Armstrong
Custer was on the march.
Speaker 6 (25:34):
He had a vision.
Speaker 5 (25:36):
Can you tell me more about his vision as it's
passed down in your family tradition to you and what
it meant to him?
Speaker 10 (25:44):
Yeah, it was. It was he had the vision in
the sun dance when he was doing sundance and I
think it was a third day. He had this vision
of the clouds opened up and his he said, it
looked like grasshoppers, you know, falling down. But he looked
(26:05):
again and there were soldiers falling upside down into the
camp into a camp. You know he's seen in his vision.
He had this camp there and they're falling in there.
And the voice from the creator told him, he says,
I give you these because they have no ears. And
(26:25):
you know the again, you know when you have a
vision like that, they don't explain to you what this is.
You know what it is. You should know what it
is if you're a spiritual person and if you have
you know, if you live a spiritual real life. So
he knew what was coming back. And it was right
after that when he told the people about his vision.
(26:49):
Crook came up the roast bud and try to attack him,
and Crazy Horse in his group went and chased him
all and they thought that was the vision. He said, no,
it's not the vision. And the food was running out,
so they moved for the west to a little big
on river and that's when Custer came. So that was
(27:12):
the vision. So, you know, it's basically you have to
be interpret these things yourself. You have to know what
it is that they show you what it is you
have to do. And sometimes, you know, they tell you
things that you know, it's kind of like you get
sometimes you get what you need, not what you want.
(27:35):
You know, you have to understand what it is. And
you know, I see people get angry, you know a
little bit because what they want it doesn't happen, you know,
but they give them, they tell them what they need.
That's the difference. You know, a vision you can under
(27:55):
you can be told by the spirits in the ceremony,
well what the outcome would be. But a dream is
up to you to decipher what it is.
Speaker 5 (28:07):
So can you give me, Can you give me an
example in your own life when you were either coming
out of the Vietnam experience or for what any other reason,
when a dream gave you a glimpse of something that
or it forced you to look inside yourself for an
(28:30):
answer about something that you were wrestling with.
Speaker 10 (28:34):
Well, you know, the dreams that I had were flat
about the war. You know, I'm always seeing the face
come before me as the first man I killed at Vietnam.
He always hunted me. And you know, it was driving
me crazy because I don't know, maybe it was my
guilt in me of the war thing, but you know,
(28:59):
that's that's what I started running from it. I take
I'll go somewhere else and I'm good for a while
and any kids. And I started abusing alcohol, you know,
because I figured that's the way to numb it, because
you don't remember it, but actually all the people around
you know that you're you're reliving that that dream again.
(29:20):
So that was my thing. But that Vietnam experience over
wrote any dreams I ever had.
Speaker 5 (29:28):
Ernie will share his vision for a more hopeful future
at the end of this series. It's a real vision
he had. But this podcast is about more than just
dreams versus visions. Nothing very scary about that, except that
this vision or recurring dream at an event, whatever it is,
(29:48):
that's still chasing Doctor Mark Sturgis of something he has
yet to reconcile concerns a roadside killer that he's being
called to confront. That is the core of this story
and we are nowhere near getting to the bottom of
that yet. First we'll return to the reflections on our
(30:11):
justice system from David Rudolph with a story about a
former client of his that you won't believe. Also a
couple words about police intuition that Detective Brody from our
story claims to have from an actual police instructor, SWAT trainer,
cold case detective and UFO author Greg Lawson. As we
(30:35):
continue to explore the answers that await us all at
the bottom of the box the next episode.
Speaker 6 (30:43):
Of Vaudeville for the Frighten.
Speaker 5 (30:50):
This episode of Vaudeville for the Frightened featured Andrew and
Jen Smith. Gabrielle Warrender, Marjorie Punnett and Ed Weigel are
announcer and friend. The theme for Vaudeviilt for the Frightened
was written by Andrew Clark and performed by Ryan Winters
and Pistol Beauty. Original music by Colby Van Camp, engineered
(31:13):
by Jacob Cummings, Dawson Wagner, Colby Van Camp, Mason Camara
and Adolfoblanco. Special thanks to Marjorie Punnet, Corny Cole, Lisa Lyon,
Chris Borros, Bill May, Tom dan Eer and Julie Talbot.
Speaker 6 (31:29):
And thank you Joe Brandmeier.
Speaker 11 (31:33):
This has been a fourth Down and ten productions
Speaker 3 (32:18):
SUSS
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.