June 16, 2023 • 34 mins
As Mark is cleared, sort of, and more of the circumstances leading up to this suspicious murder are explained, the detective questions Mark about any enemies from his past that might have killed the graduate student by accident?
There is only possible candidate, and Mark has to be sure he trusts others to share the engaging story of his childhood encounter with Solomon Talbert.
What is the meaning of the title of the series? Or this is a red herring? Will be Mark be trapped by a lie he told as a child?
Attorney David Rudolph comments.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Superstition here and jealousy superstition here and jealousy.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Okay, okay them with your call him with your car.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
I'm on the international frequency.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Come here, tell me.
Speaker 4 (00:30):
What you'll tell you what you are.
Speaker 5 (00:33):
It was a time when eating classic stream sturdy first
time and any first.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Kids, Do you indeed think that either there is life
on other planets?
Speaker 5 (00:45):
Stop?
Speaker 1 (00:46):
This would be more effective at midnight and pounding winds
and crushing thunder, And even then it wouldn't frighten anyone.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
The flames clean.
Speaker 5 (00:54):
My soul of evil, of.
Speaker 6 (00:57):
It's lust for blood.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Five second, mister Argle, Welcome to Ian Punnett's Vaudeville for
the Frightened, a fresh mix of audio, art, music, interviews
and fiction that will have you wondering what is there
(01:24):
to be afraid of?
Speaker 4 (01:26):
Here's the Deacon of the Dark, Ian Punnett.
Speaker 5 (01:33):
Welcome to Welcome to episode three of Bottom of the Box,
the first series series in Vaudeville for the Frightened. This
episode is called is called Solomon Calbert Albert. As I
mentioned before, this whole series is deeply personal and it
(01:54):
reflects how I think about writing and how I write
about the things I'm thinking about in this case, I
think you'll have to trust me that all of the
clips that you have heard so far from past radio
guests will play into the conclusion of this eight part series.
(02:20):
It'll all be revealed in the end, and in fact,
in many ways you may already have enough clues to
guess who the real killer is. But when I mentioned
the deeply personal part, some of it's because I can't
help but reflect on all the ways in which different
(02:42):
people have influenced.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
How I write and what I like to write about.
Speaker 5 (02:48):
When I was a kid, there was a popular public
service announcement campaign in support of local police departments, and
the tag line was, if you're in trouble, call a friend,
Call a cop.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
Oh were that true?
Speaker 5 (03:10):
I mean, sure, there are times when a police officer
can act as sort of our the facto friends. But
when police officers are trained, they're not trained to be
our friends. They're trained to protect and serve a community.
(03:30):
But those are pretty high concepts, not rules. According to
attorney David Rudolph from the Netflix series The Staircase, his
Webby Award winning criminal justice podcast Abuse of Power, and
the author of American Injustice Inside Stories from the Underbelly
(03:51):
of the criminal justice system. Sometimes when you call a cop,
you're getting the opposite of a friend. Sometimes cops are
the enemies.
Speaker 6 (04:05):
Ed Friedlan was a very well respected doctor in Charlotte.
He had moved he was Jewish, he had moved from
New York, and that sort of set him apart back
in the in the late eighties and early nineties in Charlotte.
There weren't very many of us living in North Carolina
at that point. And he was married to a woman
(04:27):
who was the president of the local chapter of National
Organization of Women, and they had a very nice life
in Charlotte. And one day he came home from working
at three different hospitals. He had been at the hospitals
from eight am until ten pm. He gets home about
ten twenty and he finds his wife absolutely brutally murdered her.
(04:53):
She's handcuffed with her hands behind her back, multiple stab wounds,
the road is slashed. I mean, it was horrific scene,
just an awful, awful crime. And he calls the police,
and the police come and they don't think that he's
(05:14):
sufficiently emotional at what obviously would have been a horrific
scene for anybody to view. But you know put that
to one side. They're suspicious of him, but they really
don't have any evidence, and he's been at the hospital
all day long, and so they start their investigation, and
(05:37):
they develop evidence against a crack addict who lived just
across a busy street from this community where Ed and
his wife lived, and he has a history of criminal conduct.
They find out that in fact, he had worked at
the Friedland house as a handyman several times. Kim Thomas's,
(06:02):
the freelan's wife's best friends, had been suspicious of this
guy and immediately upon the death informed the police that
they thought he might have done it. The police find
out that this guy is all over the neighborhood the
night before she's killed. So he's on the street impersonating
(06:24):
a police officer, trying to get somebody to get out
of their house, going around to houses looking for money,
all over the neighborhood. Then his brother in law calls
the police and says that he thinks that marrying Gales,
this fella killed that white woman, referring to Kim Thomas.
(06:46):
The police have all of this evidence, and then they
find out that Ed Friedland had had an affair with
a nurse and had actually gone to a divorce lawyer
to inquire about you know, divorce law, and had then
decided that no, he wasn't going to do that. Once
(07:10):
they find out that he had had an affair with
a nurse and gone to a divorce lawyer, they completely
lose interest in this other fellow and focus on Ed Friedland.
And what they do is they look inside and out
(07:31):
for any evidence, you know, they they bring in a
blood spatter expert, actually the blood spatter expert who ends
up fabricating evidence in the in the in the staircase.
He's there and he, you know, he's talking about how
the scene looks stage to him. You know that that
someone you know, rifled through drawers, making it seem like
(07:52):
there was going to be a burglary, but it really wasn't.
Speaker 7 (07:55):
It was just so funny, like there's an actual I mean,
I mean, I understand the subject of the subjectivity of that,
but that's not quantifiable of what the difference is between
somebody doing it for real and somebody playing at.
Speaker 5 (08:12):
Rifling through a drawer. Well, how could you ever tell?
Speaker 6 (08:16):
No, there's no way to distinguish that. But in any event,
absurd confirmation. This is where confirmation bias and tunnel vision
kicks in because they have decided that edds their guy,
and so now you look at it at a scene,
you look at evidence, and you put the interpretation on
it that fits with your scenario. That's what confirmation bias does, right,
(08:42):
all right, So now they do that, but they go
to the DA, and the DA says, listen, you don't
have enough tonight. You know, there's just not enough here.
And that goes on for four years until finally, finally
the police, after going to their local medical examiner, going
to the State of North Carolina medical examiner trying to
(09:06):
establish a time of death, because in order for Ed
to have killed his wife, the death had to have
occurred before he left for the hospital, because his alibi
is absolutely fool proof the rest of the day. So
they have to establish that she died before eight am.
So finally they go to Michael Boden, who is a
(09:30):
sort of well known he's former medical examiner in New York,
and they go to him and they are asking him
whether he can establish that the time of death was
prior to eight am, And we get a tape of
a phone call that the police mistakenly they turned it
(09:51):
over to a public defender, which I mean, this just
shows you how these cases can unravel in ways that
you would never imagine. They turn a tape over to
a public defender, it has a nine to one one
call on it, it's a it's a dui case, and
the public defenders listening to this nine one one call,
(10:12):
and all of a sudden, she hears this other detective
talking to Michael Boden about the Kim Thomas murder and
she calls me up and she says, you're not going
to believe this, but I've got this tape, so I
listened to it. And in fact, you know what it
happened was they reuse the tape for nine to one
one call. They didn't they didn't erase it all. So first,
(10:37):
you know, a few minutes are the nine one one call,
and then it switches into the call between Boden and
the police detective and you can hear Boden saying, I mean,
I really don't think I can help you with this.
It's very hard, blah blah blah blah blah, and the
police officers saying, well, we really need your help, you know,
the only way we're going to convict this guy is
by establishing that it's before eight am and lo and behold.
(11:03):
At some point, Boden writes a report that says, based
on the level of potassium in the vitreous humor of
this woman's eyes at autopsy, he can say that the
time of death was before eight am. Wow, And based
on that evidence, the DA indicts. But when the DA indicts,
(11:27):
the police have withheld from the DA all of the
evidence that they had previously gathered about this alternative suspect.
So all the DA has is this medical examiner's report,
and they don't have any of the evidence about marrying
Gales at all.
Speaker 5 (11:46):
We'll hear how it all ended for Ed Friedlin coming
up at the end of this episode. But confirmation bias,
tunnel vision on the part of investigators, a little hint
of sex, a scandal, infidelity seems to be all it
(12:07):
takes to become the sole suspect in some police investigations.
I mean, unless you're lucky enough to have an attorney
like David Rudolph, or you happen to be married to
a criminologist. We'll get back to episode three of Bottom
of the Box from the Wildcat Community Theater of the Air.
(12:30):
Next on Vaudeville for the Frightened.
Speaker 4 (12:51):
Ian Punnet's Vaudeville for the Frightened. Usual reers to Fight
Your Fears Series one, The Bottom of the Bucks.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Mark Coffee Hunt.
Speaker 4 (13:03):
Yes, thank you, no more for me, Thanks.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Keep it coming.
Speaker 5 (13:07):
I'm fine.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Yeah, you guys seem like the Starbucks frew through coffee types.
Speaker 4 (13:11):
Geez.
Speaker 5 (13:12):
No reason to get personal, hey.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
Just guilty until proven innocent here.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
M Yeah, there's a lot of that going around here.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Okay, all right, I already apologized you were right, But
how could you tell we were on the wrong trail?
Speaker 5 (13:28):
Because she's the smartest one in the room.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
And because it was so obvious. Before I go any further,
I noticed you'd turn on your tape record again. What's
up with that?
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Sorry? This is the third recorded interview with doctor Mark
Sturgis on the morning of September twenty fourth, at seven
thirty five am. Doctor Sturgis has not been mirandized. He
is a voluntary cooperating witness. I will restate for the
record that doctor Sturgis is not a suspect or a
person of interest. This is now a joint investigation between
(14:00):
Metro and Campus police with Sergeant Fred Ludeger, who is present,
as is doctor mal Sturgis, with our assurances that we
have closed the file on doctor Sturgis. His attorney did
not feel the need to be here. You were saying, Mal,
thank you.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Just wanted to be clear. When I saw the crime
scene photos, I noticed many irregularities. Poor Mary Kay was
not killed in Mark's current office. This is Mark's old one,
the trademark backwards braves baseball cap. She was wearing the
high back office chair that obscures most of the person
who's sitting in it the late hour. If they didn't know,
(14:36):
nobody could tell that was Mary Kay. And then there
was the matter of the message, which admittedly even fooled
me as Mark's wife when you first came into the house. Also,
if I may speak bluntly, there is just one shot fired.
One shot. One kill is not easy. Like I said,
I grew up on a farm. Mark would take ten
shots to hit a target from that distance.
Speaker 4 (14:57):
Okay, be fair.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Five, I've seen you shoot, sweetie. There's a reason why
you never killed one deer, and you were relieved when
your rifle was stolen. So unless you've been practicing somewhere
Wade have you? Are you buying ar fifteens from weekend
gun shows so you don't have to show up in
the database. Mark, should Detective Brody show your photo around
the gun shows? Are you practicing at the box Turtle Cabin?
Speaker 4 (15:19):
Okay?
Speaker 5 (15:19):
If I was, why would I admit that here?
Speaker 8 (15:22):
We haven't checked the gun shows yet, But there are
the same group of guys out of the Country Fairgrounds
about every three weeks.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
All I needed to check was whether Mark's office was
still listed at Room one o eight on the building
directory in the lobby. Then I knew Mark was likely
the intended victim, not Mary Kay. If the killer knew
that Mark had been asked to be the interim dean
and he had moved to his new temporary office of
Room one fifteen at the other end of the hallway,
(15:50):
Mary Kay would still be alive.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (15:53):
I should have caught that office move because I'm not
on patrol anymore and you still had so much your
stuff in your old office. I forgot the school moved
you into Dean Kale's office while he's on leave.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
And you should have noticed by the blood spatter on
the closed office door and the boxes in front of
Mark's old desk where Mary Kay died. Because of the
university's policy about men never being behind closed doors with anybody,
Mark used those boxes to prop open his door whenever
he was in the building. But a young woman like
Mary Kay, perhaps a little spooked by the quietness of
(16:26):
Francis Hall at night, probably moved those boxes over to
in front of the desk and locked the door for
peace of mind. Or maybe she saw somebody out there
walking around the building and got spooked. Have you looked
at the security footage, Fred, Sure we did.
Speaker 8 (16:41):
We went back to look for anybody who didn't belong there.
We didn't find anything. A shot came from too far away.
Speaker 5 (16:48):
Fred.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Did you go back to the call log and determine
exactly when the message was forwarded to Officer Goodman?
Speaker 8 (16:54):
Yeah, this is a little embarrassing, all right. It seems
that the message was sent last week, an Officer Goodman
forgot about it until he was maintaining the security perimeter
at the scene when Mary Kay Campbell's body was found. Now,
to cover that up, he called into the office voicemail
and pretended he had just received the call on his phone,
(17:15):
then deleted the message and pretended that the person was
dictating it. Obviously this should never have happened. I mean
a total confidence there will be some kind of disciplinary
hearing on this.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
If that's any consolation.
Speaker 5 (17:28):
M No, not much. But in all fairness, the school
has been pretty tight lipped about the accusations concerning Dean Kale.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
What can you tell me about Dean Kale and why
would it be relevant to this investigation?
Speaker 5 (17:45):
It just rumors at this point, just rumors.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
But rumors are all it takes these days to end
a career. There used to be due process when a
professor was accused of something. Now allegations are as good
as the truth.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Okay, But to the rumors, what did Dean Kale actually do?
Speaker 5 (18:03):
As far as I know, not much. The game these days,
it seems on some college campuses, is just to dirty
somebody up, not canceled, as you know the expression goes,
but sidelined. Dean Kale has been with this department for
forty years, the last fourteen as Dean. He was a
(18:27):
widower and a mentor to many of us like me.
For decades. He was loved, but last year he made
a joke in class that at his age, getting woke
in the morning is the hardest part of his day.
One student was offended by that and said, as an
(18:49):
older white male, he should never make fun of wokeness.
Dean Kle apologized and tried to explain that he was
only joking about dying in his sleep at his age.
Speaker 4 (19:02):
But that just made it.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Worse, obviously, But what's the problem.
Speaker 5 (19:07):
This year, the university sent out a memo suggesting that
every professor acknowledge that the school was built on land
once owned by indigenous peoples by voluntarily putting a statement
on every syllabus.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Well, this is news to me. What does that mean?
Speaker 5 (19:28):
It means that every time you start a class you
express something to the effect of the campus wishes to
acknowledge and honor the indigenous communities who lived and had
stewardship of this land and are still its rightful owners.
But Deankale didn't follow the consensus on that because a
(19:52):
it was a suggestion and not a requirement, and B
since he's a neo Marxist, he doesn't believe been any
property rights. He's always been very consistent about that. He
was quite polite at the department meetings, but as soon
as his first class started the semester and that supposedly
(20:13):
voluntary statement wasn't on his syllabus. That's when the whisper
campaign started. There were some suggestions from the top that
unless he forced himself to make his voluntary statement, maybe
it was time for him to retire. But Dean Kale
told the school that since his wife died, running this
(20:36):
department was all he had to live for, and he
was told by the administration then to take some time
off and think about it, you know, for the good
of the school. And that's when I stepped in a
few weeks ago, for the.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Good of the school that he devoted his life to.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
That's kind of sad. Why the message about him having
an affair.
Speaker 5 (20:58):
With a student in today's Unfortunately, who knows. Maybe a
student or a colleague didn't think Dean Kale wasn't leaving
fast enough and decided to nudge the process along. Like
I said, it's no longer about due process so much.
It's about dirtying somebody up to get what you want,
(21:19):
or at least to stop them from getting what they want.
It's almost an unofficial sport on some college campuses these days.
I know a guy who got his PhD from an
international university now on the side for money, he was
writing speculative science books, kind of funny, really edgy stuff,
(21:43):
And in one of his books he played with a
theory that he had been working on since he was
a kid that blood sucking insects from the age of
the dinosaurs that had landed on tree sap which had
then turned into amber, could contain dyna DNA, which could
then be used to bring back extinct species. It was
(22:06):
a goofy, principle based science book that his publisher just loved,
not his thesis, nothing to do with what he was
doing at the university. Then a powerful, prestigious professor from
another school in another country entirely read about it and
thought the idea was so preposterous, so stupid, that he
(22:30):
used all of his own personal leverage and so called
gravitas to get the school to rescind the PhD that
it had just granted to this guy, pretend that it
never happened, and then to discredit him.
Speaker 4 (22:47):
Wait a minute, I've heard of that.
Speaker 5 (22:49):
Isn't that the basis for Jurassic Park? It is, yep,
and that's the true story of the guy who developed
the Jurassic Park recipe. He was the victim of a
powerful gatekeeper in his field who decided he was nuts.
And here's the kicker. That prestigious professor thought about it,
(23:09):
talked about it among his friends, and then decided to
write his own articles based on that same theory that
he stole from the young guy that.
Speaker 4 (23:18):
He just discredited.
Speaker 5 (23:20):
When Michael Creton read those articles, then he wrote the
novel Jurassic Park.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Well, pardon me for saying this, but that would be
something worth shooting somebody over.
Speaker 8 (23:31):
Okay, but how does that get us any closer to
no one who killed Mary Kate Campbell.
Speaker 5 (23:36):
It's just an illustration of how ruthless some academics can
be to get ahead.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Or maybe it was intended to make campus security dirty
you up, Doctor sturgis from someone you might not expect.
But let me approach this from a different perspective. If
it's true that the shooter in the woods had looked
up the wrong office number, mis took your braves cap
for you, and then killed Mary Kay Campbell, who would
(24:02):
hate you enough to go through all that trouble to
see you dead? Any students, former colleagues, has anybody threatened you?
Speaker 6 (24:11):
Nah?
Speaker 5 (24:11):
They all love him.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
He's a soft grader, most popular professor on campus.
Speaker 4 (24:16):
Ouch.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
I've been trying to be the head of my department
for twenty years and Mark has made acting dean at
the first opportunity the university gets. And he doesn't even
want the promotion, and he gets it. He says all
the right things to all the right people. It's true, Fred,
back me up.
Speaker 8 (24:32):
I mean, it's always what I heard about you being
a soft grad a two Fred.
Speaker 5 (24:39):
So anybody, well, only one person I know of might
have that big of a grudge against me. Only one
person in my life threatened to actually kill me that
I really believed on this campus. No, I haven't seen
(25:01):
this person for thirty five years. Who is it? His
name was Solomon Talbert. Before I go there, I gotta
take a walk.
Speaker 4 (25:32):
EANM. Punnets Vaudefield for the Frightened, Use Your Ears to
Fight Your Fears Series one The Bottom of the Bunks.
Speaker 5 (25:42):
Maybe there's a name for it somewhere, the first degree
murder of one's reputation, but I don't know what it is.
Libel or slander is more like an assault on one's
good name, But the first degree murder of an innocent
person's reputation needs another more serious word to describe what's
(26:04):
actually happening. If homicide is Latin for the killing of
another person, and suicide is Latin for the killing of
one's self, then maybe an appropriate portmanteau for the intentional
murder of another's reputation would be Noman's side or name killing.
(26:28):
When quote rumors are all it takes these days to
end a career, and allegations are as good as a fact.
With the pervasiveness of media being what it is, the
onus is on the police and the prosecutors to more
heavily penalize law enforcement who are guilty of confirmation bias,
(26:50):
tunnel vision, or a rigged expert witness. For all of
his legal prowess, the staircase, attorney David Rudolph could not
prove and his client ed Friedland from becoming a victim
of Noman's side.
Speaker 6 (27:05):
They do the purp walk. They arrest him at his office.
They take him out of his medical office and handcuffs.
All the media is there to film this mysteriously. You know,
how did they know this was going to happen? Yeah,
they film it and he's he's put in jail and
he makes bond and now I'm representing him. There's a doctor,
(27:26):
there's a medical examiner in Minneapolis who was the person
who first discovered that there was some relationship between the
level of potassium in a person's eye and time of death.
And I call him up. His name is John Coe.
And John tells me, listen, yeah, you can tell it,
but it's plus or minus six hours, Kael.
Speaker 7 (27:49):
I mean that's not very well pinpoint a sunrise exactly.
Speaker 6 (27:54):
It's pluster minus six hours. And John sends me all
of the literature, all of the articles that established that,
you know. So, uh, then we my investigator does what
investigators should do. He examines the what's called the calls
(28:16):
for service in the neighborhood, in other words, who was
calling for the police in that neighborhood in the day before.
And he finds all these calls for service about marrying Gails.
So we subpoena all of the police records from all
of the police officers on these calls for service about
maryon Gails, and we have a hearing and the prosecutor
(28:42):
is is, yeah, he doesn't know anything about these things.
He says, we need to let the judge see this
stuff first in camera. You know without you looking at it, right,
I say, fine. They put it all back in front
of the judge. The prosecutor walks out about an hour later.
He says, you're not going to believe what we're about
to show you. And he gives me all of these documents,
(29:05):
all of these police reports about Marion Gale's that he
had never seen. He said, I never saw these. And
and then we have a hearing on Michael Boden's testimony
and he he knows nothing about any of these studies.
He's basing his opinion on a sentence out of a textbook.
(29:29):
And you know, basically at the hearing he said, what
I'm questioning about these about these various studies, He says, well,
you know, I don't know how a watch works, but
I can tell I can look at the face of
it and tell the time, and and so I don't
know about all these studies, but I know that you
can tell you can tell the time of death by
his victorious potassium, totally inconsistent with all the studies. The
(29:53):
judge rules that he cannot testify because it's not valid science.
All of those other pieces of evidence against Gales are
now disclosed, and the DA dismisses the case, never goes
to try not understand that ed ed Friedland was facing
(30:14):
a death penalty.
Speaker 5 (30:15):
And while some still believe that, yeah, sure, it may
have taken a heavy toll on an innocent man, Ed
Friedland's story proves the justice system works in the end.
None of us should be so sure.
Speaker 6 (30:31):
So is that a victory. No. No, Ed Friedland's life
was destroyed, his medical practice. His partners kicked him out
of the medical practice. And you can understand why. I mean,
he's charged with this brutal murder and so and even
after he's after the charge is dismissed, half of Charlotte
(30:52):
thinks he still did it. So he's got to move
to another state restart his medical practice. And it's all
because the police decided, based on his affair, that he
was the purp, not this other guy.
Speaker 5 (31:10):
Not so fast, says military veteran police Academy instructor and
SWAT trainer Detective Greg Lawson, who uses standard police investigation
protocols to re examined cold case reports of government cover ups.
Greg has a master's degree from Texas State University and
(31:33):
specializes in detecting deception when it comes to the accuracy
of a Cops Spidey sense. He's a believer and you'll
hear about that in the next episode, Episode four of
Bottom of the Box, titled The Big Little Lie, part
(31:53):
of the Vaudeville for the Frightened series.
Speaker 4 (31:57):
I'm Ian Punnett.
Speaker 5 (32:04):
You can always reach the Deacon of the Dark on
Twitter at Deacon Punnett de E A co O N
p U N N E T T. I'd love to
hear more about your fears. This episode of Vaudeville for
the Frighten featured Andrew and Jen Smith, Gabrielle Warrender, and
our friend and announcer Ed Weigel from the Wildcat Community
(32:27):
Theater of the Air. The theme for Vaudeville for the
Frightened was written by Andrew Clark and performed by Ryan
Winters and Pistol Beauty. Original music by Colby Van Camp,
engineered by Jacob Cummings, Dawson Wagner, Colby Van Camp, Mason
Kamara and Adolfo Blanco. Special thanks to Marjorie Punnett, Corney, Cole,
(32:52):
Lisa Lyon, Chris Borros, Bill May, Tom dan Heiser and
Julie Talbot and as always, thank you Joe Bradmeyer. This
has been a fourth down and ten production
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Sh
Superstition here and jealousy superstition here and jealousy.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Okay, okay them with your call him with your car.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
I'm on the international frequency.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Come here, tell me.
Speaker 4 (00:30):
What you'll tell you what you are.
Speaker 5 (00:33):
It was a time when eating classic stream sturdy first
time and any first.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Kids, Do you indeed think that either there is life
on other planets?
Speaker 5 (00:45):
Stop?
Speaker 1 (00:46):
This would be more effective at midnight and pounding winds
and crushing thunder, And even then it wouldn't frighten anyone.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
The flames clean.
Speaker 5 (00:54):
My soul of evil, of.
Speaker 6 (00:57):
It's lust for blood.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Five second, mister Argle, Welcome to Ian Punnett's Vaudeville for
the Frightened, a fresh mix of audio, art, music, interviews
and fiction that will have you wondering what is there
(01:24):
to be afraid of?
Speaker 4 (01:26):
Here's the Deacon of the Dark, Ian Punnett.
Speaker 5 (01:33):
Welcome to Welcome to episode three of Bottom of the Box,
the first series series in Vaudeville for the Frightened. This
episode is called is called Solomon Calbert Albert. As I
mentioned before, this whole series is deeply personal and it
(01:54):
reflects how I think about writing and how I write
about the things I'm thinking about in this case, I
think you'll have to trust me that all of the
clips that you have heard so far from past radio
guests will play into the conclusion of this eight part series.
(02:20):
It'll all be revealed in the end, and in fact,
in many ways you may already have enough clues to
guess who the real killer is. But when I mentioned
the deeply personal part, some of it's because I can't
help but reflect on all the ways in which different
(02:42):
people have influenced.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
How I write and what I like to write about.
Speaker 5 (02:48):
When I was a kid, there was a popular public
service announcement campaign in support of local police departments, and
the tag line was, if you're in trouble, call a friend,
Call a cop.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
Oh were that true?
Speaker 5 (03:10):
I mean, sure, there are times when a police officer
can act as sort of our the facto friends. But
when police officers are trained, they're not trained to be
our friends. They're trained to protect and serve a community.
(03:30):
But those are pretty high concepts, not rules. According to
attorney David Rudolph from the Netflix series The Staircase, his
Webby Award winning criminal justice podcast Abuse of Power, and
the author of American Injustice Inside Stories from the Underbelly
(03:51):
of the criminal justice system. Sometimes when you call a cop,
you're getting the opposite of a friend. Sometimes cops are
the enemies.
Speaker 6 (04:05):
Ed Friedlan was a very well respected doctor in Charlotte.
He had moved he was Jewish, he had moved from
New York, and that sort of set him apart back
in the in the late eighties and early nineties in Charlotte.
There weren't very many of us living in North Carolina
at that point. And he was married to a woman
(04:27):
who was the president of the local chapter of National
Organization of Women, and they had a very nice life
in Charlotte. And one day he came home from working
at three different hospitals. He had been at the hospitals
from eight am until ten pm. He gets home about
ten twenty and he finds his wife absolutely brutally murdered her.
(04:53):
She's handcuffed with her hands behind her back, multiple stab wounds,
the road is slashed. I mean, it was horrific scene,
just an awful, awful crime. And he calls the police,
and the police come and they don't think that he's
(05:14):
sufficiently emotional at what obviously would have been a horrific
scene for anybody to view. But you know put that
to one side. They're suspicious of him, but they really
don't have any evidence, and he's been at the hospital
all day long, and so they start their investigation, and
(05:37):
they develop evidence against a crack addict who lived just
across a busy street from this community where Ed and
his wife lived, and he has a history of criminal conduct.
They find out that in fact, he had worked at
the Friedland house as a handyman several times. Kim Thomas's,
(06:02):
the freelan's wife's best friends, had been suspicious of this
guy and immediately upon the death informed the police that
they thought he might have done it. The police find
out that this guy is all over the neighborhood the
night before she's killed. So he's on the street impersonating
(06:24):
a police officer, trying to get somebody to get out
of their house, going around to houses looking for money,
all over the neighborhood. Then his brother in law calls
the police and says that he thinks that marrying Gales,
this fella killed that white woman, referring to Kim Thomas.
(06:46):
The police have all of this evidence, and then they
find out that Ed Friedland had had an affair with
a nurse and had actually gone to a divorce lawyer
to inquire about you know, divorce law, and had then
decided that no, he wasn't going to do that. Once
(07:10):
they find out that he had had an affair with
a nurse and gone to a divorce lawyer, they completely
lose interest in this other fellow and focus on Ed Friedland.
And what they do is they look inside and out
(07:31):
for any evidence, you know, they they bring in a
blood spatter expert, actually the blood spatter expert who ends
up fabricating evidence in the in the in the staircase.
He's there and he, you know, he's talking about how
the scene looks stage to him. You know that that
someone you know, rifled through drawers, making it seem like
(07:52):
there was going to be a burglary, but it really wasn't.
Speaker 7 (07:55):
It was just so funny, like there's an actual I mean,
I mean, I understand the subject of the subjectivity of that,
but that's not quantifiable of what the difference is between
somebody doing it for real and somebody playing at.
Speaker 5 (08:12):
Rifling through a drawer. Well, how could you ever tell?
Speaker 6 (08:16):
No, there's no way to distinguish that. But in any event,
absurd confirmation. This is where confirmation bias and tunnel vision
kicks in because they have decided that edds their guy,
and so now you look at it at a scene,
you look at evidence, and you put the interpretation on
it that fits with your scenario. That's what confirmation bias does, right,
(08:42):
all right, So now they do that, but they go
to the DA, and the DA says, listen, you don't
have enough tonight. You know, there's just not enough here.
And that goes on for four years until finally, finally
the police, after going to their local medical examiner, going
to the State of North Carolina medical examiner trying to
(09:06):
establish a time of death, because in order for Ed
to have killed his wife, the death had to have
occurred before he left for the hospital, because his alibi
is absolutely fool proof the rest of the day. So
they have to establish that she died before eight am.
So finally they go to Michael Boden, who is a
(09:30):
sort of well known he's former medical examiner in New York,
and they go to him and they are asking him
whether he can establish that the time of death was
prior to eight am, And we get a tape of
a phone call that the police mistakenly they turned it
(09:51):
over to a public defender, which I mean, this just
shows you how these cases can unravel in ways that
you would never imagine. They turn a tape over to
a public defender, it has a nine to one one
call on it, it's a it's a dui case, and
the public defenders listening to this nine one one call,
(10:12):
and all of a sudden, she hears this other detective
talking to Michael Boden about the Kim Thomas murder and
she calls me up and she says, you're not going
to believe this, but I've got this tape, so I
listened to it. And in fact, you know what it
happened was they reuse the tape for nine to one
one call. They didn't they didn't erase it all. So first,
(10:37):
you know, a few minutes are the nine one one call,
and then it switches into the call between Boden and
the police detective and you can hear Boden saying, I mean,
I really don't think I can help you with this.
It's very hard, blah blah blah blah blah, and the
police officers saying, well, we really need your help, you know,
the only way we're going to convict this guy is
by establishing that it's before eight am and lo and behold.
(11:03):
At some point, Boden writes a report that says, based
on the level of potassium in the vitreous humor of
this woman's eyes at autopsy, he can say that the
time of death was before eight am. Wow, And based
on that evidence, the DA indicts. But when the DA indicts,
(11:27):
the police have withheld from the DA all of the
evidence that they had previously gathered about this alternative suspect.
So all the DA has is this medical examiner's report,
and they don't have any of the evidence about marrying
Gales at all.
Speaker 5 (11:46):
We'll hear how it all ended for Ed Friedlin coming
up at the end of this episode. But confirmation bias,
tunnel vision on the part of investigators, a little hint
of sex, a scandal, infidelity seems to be all it
(12:07):
takes to become the sole suspect in some police investigations.
I mean, unless you're lucky enough to have an attorney
like David Rudolph, or you happen to be married to
a criminologist. We'll get back to episode three of Bottom
of the Box from the Wildcat Community Theater of the Air.
(12:30):
Next on Vaudeville for the Frightened.
Speaker 4 (12:51):
Ian Punnet's Vaudeville for the Frightened. Usual reers to Fight
Your Fears Series one, The Bottom of the Bucks.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Mark Coffee Hunt.
Speaker 4 (13:03):
Yes, thank you, no more for me, Thanks.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Keep it coming.
Speaker 5 (13:07):
I'm fine.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Yeah, you guys seem like the Starbucks frew through coffee types.
Speaker 4 (13:11):
Geez.
Speaker 5 (13:12):
No reason to get personal, hey.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
Just guilty until proven innocent here.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
M Yeah, there's a lot of that going around here.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Okay, all right, I already apologized you were right, But
how could you tell we were on the wrong trail?
Speaker 5 (13:28):
Because she's the smartest one in the room.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
And because it was so obvious. Before I go any further,
I noticed you'd turn on your tape record again. What's
up with that?
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Sorry? This is the third recorded interview with doctor Mark
Sturgis on the morning of September twenty fourth, at seven
thirty five am. Doctor Sturgis has not been mirandized. He
is a voluntary cooperating witness. I will restate for the
record that doctor Sturgis is not a suspect or a
person of interest. This is now a joint investigation between
(14:00):
Metro and Campus police with Sergeant Fred Ludeger, who is present,
as is doctor mal Sturgis, with our assurances that we
have closed the file on doctor Sturgis. His attorney did
not feel the need to be here. You were saying, Mal,
thank you.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Just wanted to be clear. When I saw the crime
scene photos, I noticed many irregularities. Poor Mary Kay was
not killed in Mark's current office. This is Mark's old one,
the trademark backwards braves baseball cap. She was wearing the
high back office chair that obscures most of the person
who's sitting in it the late hour. If they didn't know,
(14:36):
nobody could tell that was Mary Kay. And then there
was the matter of the message, which admittedly even fooled
me as Mark's wife when you first came into the house. Also,
if I may speak bluntly, there is just one shot fired.
One shot. One kill is not easy. Like I said,
I grew up on a farm. Mark would take ten
shots to hit a target from that distance.
Speaker 4 (14:57):
Okay, be fair.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Five, I've seen you shoot, sweetie. There's a reason why
you never killed one deer, and you were relieved when
your rifle was stolen. So unless you've been practicing somewhere
Wade have you? Are you buying ar fifteens from weekend
gun shows so you don't have to show up in
the database. Mark, should Detective Brody show your photo around
the gun shows? Are you practicing at the box Turtle Cabin?
Speaker 4 (15:19):
Okay?
Speaker 5 (15:19):
If I was, why would I admit that here?
Speaker 8 (15:22):
We haven't checked the gun shows yet, But there are
the same group of guys out of the Country Fairgrounds
about every three weeks.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
All I needed to check was whether Mark's office was
still listed at Room one o eight on the building
directory in the lobby. Then I knew Mark was likely
the intended victim, not Mary Kay. If the killer knew
that Mark had been asked to be the interim dean
and he had moved to his new temporary office of
Room one fifteen at the other end of the hallway,
(15:50):
Mary Kay would still be alive.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (15:53):
I should have caught that office move because I'm not
on patrol anymore and you still had so much your
stuff in your old office. I forgot the school moved
you into Dean Kale's office while he's on leave.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
And you should have noticed by the blood spatter on
the closed office door and the boxes in front of
Mark's old desk where Mary Kay died. Because of the
university's policy about men never being behind closed doors with anybody,
Mark used those boxes to prop open his door whenever
he was in the building. But a young woman like
Mary Kay, perhaps a little spooked by the quietness of
(16:26):
Francis Hall at night, probably moved those boxes over to
in front of the desk and locked the door for
peace of mind. Or maybe she saw somebody out there
walking around the building and got spooked. Have you looked
at the security footage, Fred, Sure we did.
Speaker 8 (16:41):
We went back to look for anybody who didn't belong there.
We didn't find anything. A shot came from too far away.
Speaker 5 (16:48):
Fred.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Did you go back to the call log and determine
exactly when the message was forwarded to Officer Goodman?
Speaker 8 (16:54):
Yeah, this is a little embarrassing, all right. It seems
that the message was sent last week, an Officer Goodman
forgot about it until he was maintaining the security perimeter
at the scene when Mary Kay Campbell's body was found. Now,
to cover that up, he called into the office voicemail
and pretended he had just received the call on his phone,
(17:15):
then deleted the message and pretended that the person was
dictating it. Obviously this should never have happened. I mean
a total confidence there will be some kind of disciplinary
hearing on this.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
If that's any consolation.
Speaker 5 (17:28):
M No, not much. But in all fairness, the school
has been pretty tight lipped about the accusations concerning Dean Kale.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
What can you tell me about Dean Kale and why
would it be relevant to this investigation?
Speaker 5 (17:45):
It just rumors at this point, just rumors.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
But rumors are all it takes these days to end
a career. There used to be due process when a
professor was accused of something. Now allegations are as good
as the truth.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Okay, But to the rumors, what did Dean Kale actually do?
Speaker 5 (18:03):
As far as I know, not much. The game these days,
it seems on some college campuses, is just to dirty
somebody up, not canceled, as you know the expression goes,
but sidelined. Dean Kale has been with this department for
forty years, the last fourteen as Dean. He was a
(18:27):
widower and a mentor to many of us like me.
For decades. He was loved, but last year he made
a joke in class that at his age, getting woke
in the morning is the hardest part of his day.
One student was offended by that and said, as an
(18:49):
older white male, he should never make fun of wokeness.
Dean Kle apologized and tried to explain that he was
only joking about dying in his sleep at his age.
Speaker 4 (19:02):
But that just made it.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Worse, obviously, But what's the problem.
Speaker 5 (19:07):
This year, the university sent out a memo suggesting that
every professor acknowledge that the school was built on land
once owned by indigenous peoples by voluntarily putting a statement
on every syllabus.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Well, this is news to me. What does that mean?
Speaker 5 (19:28):
It means that every time you start a class you
express something to the effect of the campus wishes to
acknowledge and honor the indigenous communities who lived and had
stewardship of this land and are still its rightful owners.
But Deankale didn't follow the consensus on that because a
(19:52):
it was a suggestion and not a requirement, and B
since he's a neo Marxist, he doesn't believe been any
property rights. He's always been very consistent about that. He
was quite polite at the department meetings, but as soon
as his first class started the semester and that supposedly
(20:13):
voluntary statement wasn't on his syllabus. That's when the whisper
campaign started. There were some suggestions from the top that
unless he forced himself to make his voluntary statement, maybe
it was time for him to retire. But Dean Kale
told the school that since his wife died, running this
(20:36):
department was all he had to live for, and he
was told by the administration then to take some time
off and think about it, you know, for the good
of the school. And that's when I stepped in a
few weeks ago, for the.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Good of the school that he devoted his life to.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
That's kind of sad. Why the message about him having
an affair.
Speaker 5 (20:58):
With a student in today's Unfortunately, who knows. Maybe a
student or a colleague didn't think Dean Kale wasn't leaving
fast enough and decided to nudge the process along. Like
I said, it's no longer about due process so much.
It's about dirtying somebody up to get what you want,
(21:19):
or at least to stop them from getting what they want.
It's almost an unofficial sport on some college campuses these days.
I know a guy who got his PhD from an
international university now on the side for money, he was
writing speculative science books, kind of funny, really edgy stuff,
(21:43):
And in one of his books he played with a
theory that he had been working on since he was
a kid that blood sucking insects from the age of
the dinosaurs that had landed on tree sap which had
then turned into amber, could contain dyna DNA, which could
then be used to bring back extinct species. It was
(22:06):
a goofy, principle based science book that his publisher just loved,
not his thesis, nothing to do with what he was
doing at the university. Then a powerful, prestigious professor from
another school in another country entirely read about it and
thought the idea was so preposterous, so stupid, that he
(22:30):
used all of his own personal leverage and so called
gravitas to get the school to rescind the PhD that
it had just granted to this guy, pretend that it
never happened, and then to discredit him.
Speaker 4 (22:47):
Wait a minute, I've heard of that.
Speaker 5 (22:49):
Isn't that the basis for Jurassic Park? It is, yep,
and that's the true story of the guy who developed
the Jurassic Park recipe. He was the victim of a
powerful gatekeeper in his field who decided he was nuts.
And here's the kicker. That prestigious professor thought about it,
(23:09):
talked about it among his friends, and then decided to
write his own articles based on that same theory that
he stole from the young guy that.
Speaker 4 (23:18):
He just discredited.
Speaker 5 (23:20):
When Michael Creton read those articles, then he wrote the
novel Jurassic Park.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Well, pardon me for saying this, but that would be
something worth shooting somebody over.
Speaker 8 (23:31):
Okay, but how does that get us any closer to
no one who killed Mary Kate Campbell.
Speaker 5 (23:36):
It's just an illustration of how ruthless some academics can
be to get ahead.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Or maybe it was intended to make campus security dirty
you up, Doctor sturgis from someone you might not expect.
But let me approach this from a different perspective. If
it's true that the shooter in the woods had looked
up the wrong office number, mis took your braves cap
for you, and then killed Mary Kay Campbell, who would
(24:02):
hate you enough to go through all that trouble to
see you dead? Any students, former colleagues, has anybody threatened you?
Speaker 6 (24:11):
Nah?
Speaker 5 (24:11):
They all love him.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
He's a soft grader, most popular professor on campus.
Speaker 4 (24:16):
Ouch.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
I've been trying to be the head of my department
for twenty years and Mark has made acting dean at
the first opportunity the university gets. And he doesn't even
want the promotion, and he gets it. He says all
the right things to all the right people. It's true, Fred,
back me up.
Speaker 8 (24:32):
I mean, it's always what I heard about you being
a soft grad a two Fred.
Speaker 5 (24:39):
So anybody, well, only one person I know of might
have that big of a grudge against me. Only one
person in my life threatened to actually kill me that
I really believed on this campus. No, I haven't seen
(25:01):
this person for thirty five years. Who is it? His
name was Solomon Talbert. Before I go there, I gotta
take a walk.
Speaker 4 (25:32):
EANM. Punnets Vaudefield for the Frightened, Use Your Ears to
Fight Your Fears Series one The Bottom of the Bunks.
Speaker 5 (25:42):
Maybe there's a name for it somewhere, the first degree
murder of one's reputation, but I don't know what it is.
Libel or slander is more like an assault on one's
good name, But the first degree murder of an innocent
person's reputation needs another more serious word to describe what's
(26:04):
actually happening. If homicide is Latin for the killing of
another person, and suicide is Latin for the killing of
one's self, then maybe an appropriate portmanteau for the intentional
murder of another's reputation would be Noman's side or name killing.
(26:28):
When quote rumors are all it takes these days to
end a career, and allegations are as good as a fact.
With the pervasiveness of media being what it is, the
onus is on the police and the prosecutors to more
heavily penalize law enforcement who are guilty of confirmation bias,
(26:50):
tunnel vision, or a rigged expert witness. For all of
his legal prowess, the staircase, attorney David Rudolph could not
prove and his client ed Friedland from becoming a victim
of Noman's side.
Speaker 6 (27:05):
They do the purp walk. They arrest him at his office.
They take him out of his medical office and handcuffs.
All the media is there to film this mysteriously. You know,
how did they know this was going to happen? Yeah,
they film it and he's he's put in jail and
he makes bond and now I'm representing him. There's a doctor,
(27:26):
there's a medical examiner in Minneapolis who was the person
who first discovered that there was some relationship between the
level of potassium in a person's eye and time of death.
And I call him up. His name is John Coe.
And John tells me, listen, yeah, you can tell it,
but it's plus or minus six hours, Kael.
Speaker 7 (27:49):
I mean that's not very well pinpoint a sunrise exactly.
Speaker 6 (27:54):
It's pluster minus six hours. And John sends me all
of the literature, all of the articles that established that,
you know. So, uh, then we my investigator does what
investigators should do. He examines the what's called the calls
(28:16):
for service in the neighborhood, in other words, who was
calling for the police in that neighborhood in the day before.
And he finds all these calls for service about marrying Gails.
So we subpoena all of the police records from all
of the police officers on these calls for service about
maryon Gails, and we have a hearing and the prosecutor
(28:42):
is is, yeah, he doesn't know anything about these things.
He says, we need to let the judge see this
stuff first in camera. You know without you looking at it, right,
I say, fine. They put it all back in front
of the judge. The prosecutor walks out about an hour later.
He says, you're not going to believe what we're about
to show you. And he gives me all of these documents,
(29:05):
all of these police reports about Marion Gale's that he
had never seen. He said, I never saw these. And
and then we have a hearing on Michael Boden's testimony
and he he knows nothing about any of these studies.
He's basing his opinion on a sentence out of a textbook.
(29:29):
And you know, basically at the hearing he said, what
I'm questioning about these about these various studies, He says, well,
you know, I don't know how a watch works, but
I can tell I can look at the face of
it and tell the time, and and so I don't
know about all these studies, but I know that you
can tell you can tell the time of death by
his victorious potassium, totally inconsistent with all the studies. The
(29:53):
judge rules that he cannot testify because it's not valid science.
All of those other pieces of evidence against Gales are
now disclosed, and the DA dismisses the case, never goes
to try not understand that ed ed Friedland was facing
(30:14):
a death penalty.
Speaker 5 (30:15):
And while some still believe that, yeah, sure, it may
have taken a heavy toll on an innocent man, Ed
Friedland's story proves the justice system works in the end.
None of us should be so sure.
Speaker 6 (30:31):
So is that a victory. No. No, Ed Friedland's life
was destroyed, his medical practice. His partners kicked him out
of the medical practice. And you can understand why. I mean,
he's charged with this brutal murder and so and even
after he's after the charge is dismissed, half of Charlotte
(30:52):
thinks he still did it. So he's got to move
to another state restart his medical practice. And it's all
because the police decided, based on his affair, that he
was the purp, not this other guy.
Speaker 5 (31:10):
Not so fast, says military veteran police Academy instructor and
SWAT trainer Detective Greg Lawson, who uses standard police investigation
protocols to re examined cold case reports of government cover ups.
Greg has a master's degree from Texas State University and
(31:33):
specializes in detecting deception when it comes to the accuracy
of a Cops Spidey sense. He's a believer and you'll
hear about that in the next episode, Episode four of
Bottom of the Box, titled The Big Little Lie, part
(31:53):
of the Vaudeville for the Frightened series.
Speaker 4 (31:57):
I'm Ian Punnett.
Speaker 5 (32:04):
You can always reach the Deacon of the Dark on
Twitter at Deacon Punnett de E A co O N
p U N N E T T. I'd love to
hear more about your fears. This episode of Vaudeville for
the Frighten featured Andrew and Jen Smith, Gabrielle Warrender, and
our friend and announcer Ed Weigel from the Wildcat Community
(32:27):
Theater of the Air. The theme for Vaudeville for the
Frightened was written by Andrew Clark and performed by Ryan
Winters and Pistol Beauty. Original music by Colby Van Camp,
engineered by Jacob Cummings, Dawson Wagner, Colby Van Camp, Mason
Kamara and Adolfo Blanco. Special thanks to Marjorie Punnett, Corney, Cole,
(32:52):
Lisa Lyon, Chris Borros, Bill May, Tom dan Heiser and
Julie Talbot and as always, thank you Joe Bradmeyer. This
has been a fourth down and ten production
Speaker 2 (33:59):
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com