July 18, 2023 • 23 mins
In this part of the story, in some respects, the police have to start over. If not Mark, and not somebody else already explored, then who? What would be the motivation to shoot somebody sitting at a desk in the middle of the night. Acting on a hunch, progress is made.
The police, suspects, and false leads: Famed, former FBI profiler John Douglas, serial killed researcher, Dr. Katherine Ramsland, and real-life detective instructor Greg Lawson pull back the curtain on the fictional investigation.
Finally, a breakthrough. Do we know what it’s in the “Bottom of the Box?"
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Superstition here and jealousy superstition here and jealousy.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Okay, okay them with your call him with your car.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
I'm on international frequency.
Speaker 4 (00:29):
Come here, tell me what you wait.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
I'll tell you what you are.
Speaker 5 (00:33):
It was a time when eating class medicine stream of
sturdy first time in.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Any first kids, kid, do you indeed think that either
there is life on other planets?
Speaker 6 (00:45):
Stop?
Speaker 3 (00:46):
This would be more effective at midnight and pounding winds
and crushing thunder, And even then it wouldn't frighten anyone.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
The flames clean.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
My soul of evil, of it's lust for blood, my second,
mister chel.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Welcome to Ian Punnett's Vaudeville for the Frightened, a fresh
mix of audio, art, music, interviews and fiction that will
have you wondering what is there to be afraid of?
Here's the Deacon of the Dark, Ian Punnett.
Speaker 6 (01:33):
The story I told in the Big Little Lie is
like ninety eight percent true.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
That's true, happened to me.
Speaker 6 (01:44):
There's actually a little clue in the way in which
I tell the story which indicates that to you already
it was a mistake state that we left in there
on purpose. But it's always made me wonder about that
one time I knowingly filed a false police report and
(02:06):
got away with it, seemingly sure. I was just a kid,
but I knew the officer who was interviewing me suspected
that I was lying about one aspect of the story,
but he saw something else in it, perhaps intuitively in
the lie that I told. And I'll never stop wondering
(02:30):
what the implications were of that lie. Down the road.
Justice may be blind, but she peques. If anybody should
know about the prevalence and the public facade of our
criminal justice system, it's criminologist doctor Catherine Ramslin of the
(02:50):
Sales University. A prolific author. She has written a book
every year for her time her life. I remember once
asking her whether she's published every single thought she's ever had.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
I started a blog. I didn't find it very and
I didn't like doing it.
Speaker 6 (03:14):
But that's still publishing in a way. You're just publishing
it to the internet, I guess.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
So, I know. I mean, I used to a long
time ago. I used to keep a dream journal.
Speaker 6 (03:23):
But but why now when you can just write a
book about your dreams and publish that because private?
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Is it?
Speaker 6 (03:31):
Really?
Speaker 2 (03:31):
But actually the dream journal was for getting more dreams,
because if you write your dreams down, you get more details,
more dreams, and more. It's more productive if you actually
do the writing. I used to run a dream group
and it's amazing.
Speaker 6 (03:46):
So now, what does it, Catherine Ramsland dream about? You
write about crime? You think about crime? Do you dream
about fluffy bunnies and unicorns.
Speaker 7 (03:54):
All the time?
Speaker 2 (03:56):
I dream about dogs a.
Speaker 5 (03:59):
Lot, and I dream about dogs, dogs, people that I know,
people that you know who become dogs.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
I do about TV shows that I've seen. I don't
know a lot of things you put together. You know,
your dream mind is put together so many things.
Speaker 6 (04:18):
Good things. She takes time off from her day job.
Doctor Catherine Ramsland both researches, writes about, and teaches about
mass killers, spree killers, serial killers. These men and even
sometimes women who fall into this, if one can use
(04:41):
such a term, an elite group of murderers who all
live among.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Us, extremely narcissistic elite class. Yeah, it's really about using
other people's pain to entertain or enrich themselves, right right,
and taking delight in it.
Speaker 6 (04:59):
And that's a serial killer motif, isn't it. Generally the
idea of.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Taking delights, Yeah, but not all. Some serial killers actually
have remorse that turned themselves in and some are delusional,
so they're not all like that. But but the statistic
sexually motivated serial killer who is a predator is exactly
like that.
Speaker 6 (05:20):
It is it true that serial killers just want to
be caught so they play cat and mouse games with
the police.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
They don't really want to be stabbed at. Really, that's
a myth. Is that a myth is a cat and
moss thing.
Speaker 6 (05:35):
But there are characteristics that link most serial killers together,
at least psychologically. That according to our special guest, former
FBI profiler John Douglas, for many, it all starts with
the moms. A good example of that is notorious serial
(05:59):
killer Ed Kemper. According to John Douglas.
Speaker 7 (06:03):
His he reminded his his mother of her ex ex husband,
looked the spitting image you know, of him, and so
she hated him and locked him down the basement where
there was a furnace down there, a gas furnace where
he'd fantasized was the devil hell and he'd had his
sister's dolls. He started decapitating the heads off of the dolls,
(06:24):
the arms, the legs, things, he would do to victims.
Later on, he also was into animal cruelty, buried cats alive,
you know, dissect dissect cats. He was giving psychological tests, uh,
for the psychologists, you know, administering them to other you know,
other inmates when he was when he was incarcerated. But
(06:47):
you know, it's it's one of these things. Again. You
look at the guy. He wouldn't be where he was
had it not been for all this this early childhood
stuff and with the you know, with with the mother.
Speaker 6 (06:59):
More from on Douglas coming up. But first I promised
you a big little reveal or a little big reveal. Anyway,
we're getting close to the end.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
Ian Punnett's Vaudeville for the Frightened Use Your Ears to
Fight Your Fears, Series one, The Bottom of the Box.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Hey, thanks for coming over, Fred.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
You kidding Proty.
Speaker 8 (07:46):
You saved me until the memorial service for the Campbell
girl is over today.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
The press owns that campus.
Speaker 8 (07:53):
Yeah, we brought an extra help for parking, so there
isn't much for me to do anyway, And what you got.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
I keep thinking about some things that Malory Sturgis said,
and I need a little help following up.
Speaker 8 (08:05):
Well, she teaches criminology. You know her insights are pretty good.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Yeah, I was definitely paying attention. For example, after she
brought up her husband's violent shooting nightmares, did she sound
a little jealous to you about his popularity?
Speaker 8 (08:21):
I don't know, only in a funny merril way. I guess.
I mean we all tease him about how beloved he is.
He does have a knack for saying the right things.
You know, people believe in it.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Uh huh, I suppose you're right. Something else, though, Did
the female doctor Sturgis sound like she was kidding when
she suggested we check the gun shows out of the fairgrounds?
I mean, didn't she sound like she was maybe dropping
a hint?
Speaker 8 (08:47):
Well, I mean I saw it as her trying to
be helpful. I mean she did get us gently back
on track on.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Those photos, right, But several times her hints incriminated her husband,
not exonerated him. What do you make of that so
called fuzzy anonymous tipster call. Was it somebody who got
it wrong about Dean Kale? Or was there something to
the rumor about Sturgis and the camel Girl?
Speaker 8 (09:10):
Judging by MoU's reaction when she learned about it, she
may have been suspecting something for a while. Her reaction
definitely colored the way I.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Looked at it.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yeah, me too. Okay, one last question I'm thinking about
when the female doctor Sturgis said rumors are all it
takes these days to end a career, that allegations are
as good as fact. Do you think she was talking
as a wife or as a criminologist.
Speaker 8 (09:37):
I don't know, but if I had to guess, I'd
say one hundred percent wife. Now, as a professor, she
knows the college campus climate these days, everybody's a little
afraid to say anything.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
I mean, just look at Dean Kale.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Somehow the pieces don't fit together. I know that Mark's
your friend and all, but I don't accept that he's mister.
From the moment I met him, I got this weird,
deceptive vibe. Could he have called in that rumor about
Dan Kale to get him out of the.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
Way without a recording?
Speaker 8 (10:10):
I don't think we'll ever know.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Want to help me check one more box off my list?
Speaker 8 (10:15):
Yeah, what do you need?
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Well, granted it's at the bottom of the list, but
who do you know at these traveling gun shows.
Speaker 8 (10:23):
Well, there's a guy in my force who works security
for the fair grounds, as we could ask him.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
I don't know what you're looking for.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Honestly, I'm looking for anybody who sold Mark Sturgis in
AR fifteen. Like I said, I'm just checking the box.
Probably didn't happen.
Speaker 8 (10:40):
Well, I won't tell you, you know. I mean, they
aren't required by law to keep or share those kinds
of records, and they get pretty touchy around cops and
AR fifteen's these days.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
It's been four days, and have them knows we need
a break.
Speaker 8 (10:55):
Yeah, and know there are no security cameras either. The
law allows almost total anonymity.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Just in case we need to talk to him. Where
is Mark stur just this afternoon?
Speaker 3 (11:06):
Get this?
Speaker 8 (11:07):
Mary Kay Campbell's family asked if he'd do her eulogy
at the memorial service, the Gospel of the Lord.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
No, no, I get it. I'm not trying to harass you.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
No.
Speaker 4 (11:25):
What I'm looking for is anybody who might be willing
to help with a police investigation into a murder. Yeah, yeah,
that's right, Yeah, the death of Mary Kay Campbell.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Excuse me, I am not violating your Second Amendment rights.
I'm a handgun owner too, and I'm a police detective
investigating a murder. Uh no, No, I don't need a name.
I need to see if you recognize a face. All
I'm asking is for you to look at a photo
that I'm going to text you.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
Yeah, yeah, I know him. He's a retired cop.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
What do you think he'd help?
Speaker 3 (11:58):
Hey, I think I have some.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Do you have a number? Your metro could really use
a break here? So the photo doesn't look familiar, but
the name does. Hang on, let me explain that to
my partner. Good Getfred. This guy on the phone is
a retired detective who keeps meticulous records. He doesn't recognize
the face, but when I told him the name, he
said he thought he remembered logging it for monthly drawing.
(12:23):
Hang on, yes, sir, still here? What did you find?
M Sturgis? What's the address? Yeah? Can you hang on
to that for about an hour or so and we'll
be right there. Okay, So here's the story. Every month,
this guy gives away a twenty count box of high
(12:44):
quality AMMO of your choice. But you need to show
a driver's license when you fill out the forum because
you have to agree to be on his mailing list.
He was just going through his entries when he knew
he had written down an M. Sturgis. He also said
that he doesn't remember Mark's face, but he had sold
a couple of rifles to people near the college recently
(13:05):
and talked to a guy about a banished thirty suppressor.
He's going to go through his receipts and make a
copy of the sweep Steak's entry. I'm going to drive
up there right now. Would you mind going back to
the campus?
Speaker 8 (13:18):
Yeah, it should be easy enough. The memorial service is
probably still going on.
Speaker 6 (13:23):
Oh, Fellowship, Divine, we think really struggled. They and Gloria shine.
Yet all are one in THEE. For all are thine.
Say it with me, Allelujah. For the most part, serial
(13:48):
killers are made, not born. Researchers such as doctor Catherine
Ramselind and John Douglas, granddaddy of all FBI profilers, a
co founder of the FBI's Behavioral Unit, the author of
the book and the subject of the Netflix series mind Hunter,
(14:09):
as portrayed in Silence of the Lambs by actor Scott Glenn,
and now a professional legal consultant on various aspects of
the US justice system. John Douglas says there are distinct
characteristics that serial killers hold together, and you'll hear about
(14:30):
that next as Vaudeville for the Frightened continues.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
Ian Punnett's Vaudeville for the Frightened usualiers to Fight Your
Fears Series one, The Bottom of the Box.
Speaker 6 (15:02):
John Douglas says there are distinct characteristics that serial killers
hold together, but when he started interviewing the most famous
serial killers first hand, he had to develop his own approach.
Speaker 7 (15:19):
I'm trying to understand the criminal personality of the why
plus how equals who and here when we have an
on sub case, we're trying to figure out the who.
Here we have people who are incarcerated, we know who
they are. I'm trying to find out the motivation, you know,
why they did it, victimology, why they selected a particular victim,
(15:39):
why they did the things that they did to the victim,
What was the pre offense behavior, what was the post
offense behavior if they confess, what was the circum stances
surrounding the interrogation that made this person volunteer and provide,
you know, provide information to the you know, the police.
Speaker 6 (16:00):
What John Douglas learns is that there are two types
of serial killers organized and disorganized, which is part of
the equation of figuring out the unsub.
Speaker 7 (16:14):
And the only time you got emotional was when I
brought up again early childhood.
Speaker 6 (16:18):
Mother, lack of abandonment.
Speaker 7 (16:21):
Yeah, now, yeah, then they got emotional, but as far
emotional for the crime. They it's justifiable homicide in their ways,
thinking they deserve it. I mean, I have my own problem.
I'm here, incarcert I'm locked up twenty four to seven.
There's nothing there. So when you get a psychologist going
and do an interview, and these guys, they know how
(16:43):
to shed a tear, They know what the buzzwords, what
the shrinks want to hear from them. So if you
go in again not armed with the facts of the case,
the background, all the information there, and have that, but
you made somebody interpret because they don't necessarily have that
background interpreted for them. What you know what it means
if you're making decisions probation and parole and it told them,
(17:03):
they said, you have no business making those decisions because
you really don't understand the crime or the criminal who
you're talking to.
Speaker 6 (17:10):
You can learn a lot about any kind of killer
by interviewing John Douglas because By interviewing convicted serial killers
known subjects such as Charles Manson, Richard Speck, and Ed Kemper,
John Douglas was able to narrow down the search for unsubs,
(17:32):
that is, unknown subjects, complete lack of empathy for the victims,
abuse of small animals, a certain joy in seeing others
in pain. These were some of the red flags his
work helped publicize. In the case of many serial killers,
(17:53):
moms are sore subjects, such as Ed Kemper. He also
knew where tell how to manipulate psychologists that were sent
in to analyze him.
Speaker 7 (18:07):
And that's when when I conduct these interviews, I'm looking
in the faces of these people and I'm trying to
imagine sometimes, Okay, now this guy. I'm looking at this
guy and he looks real, normal, normal his expression, but
this is the face that the victim was looking at,
and that this was not the kind of face or
expression that the victim saw or this kind of behavior
(18:28):
that he's presenting to me. And sometimes it's hard to
believe because because my guy, you think, you know, this
guy here did these things to this victimy and he's acting.
So he's acting, it's kind of normal. He looks he
just looks like the average the average joe, the.
Speaker 6 (18:44):
Average joe like well, you know, like Brian Koberger who
may have gone from being a mass killer in Idaho
to a serial killer. Police are still investigating. So if
it's true that both disorganized and organized serial killers are everywhere, well,
(19:10):
why don't we hear more about it in the news?
Why aren't police officials more proactive about reaching out to
the public to warn us about who's at work. Catherine
Ramslin says, there's a perfectly good reason for that.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
There are all kinds of pressures on investigators. But they
also don't want they want to panic people. They don't
want people out there investigating on their own and trying
to solve it. They don't want serial killer groupies running
up there. You know, there really are a lot of
considerations for investigators in terms of why they might downplay
it in the media, which doesn't mean they're downplaying it themselves.
Speaker 6 (19:51):
How often does somebody start as a sexual predator and
end up a serial killer?
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Well, it really depends on their degree of anger and
the degree of you know, the kinds of perhaps kinds
of pornography look at, or what they need to satisfy them.
If a rape isn't enough and they need violence, the
chances they will probably eventually start turned to killing in
(20:18):
order to satisfy that drive.
Speaker 6 (20:20):
Average joes that are doing such horrible things. And as
John Douglas points out, you'd never think that if you
just looked at their faces. I think that's a concept
that many people struggle with when it comes to killers.
(20:42):
They don't look any different, they just think differently. And
that is the last clue you'll get from me before
the big reveal in the next episode of Bottom of
the Box, part of the Vaudeville for the Frightened series.
(21:03):
This is Ian Punnett Again. You should be able to
solve this puzzle of the Bottom of the Box with
all of the clues that you've already been given, but
hang on for the big reveal episode next. This episode
(21:25):
of Vaudeville for the Frightened featured Andrew and Jen Smith
of the Wildcat Community Theater of the Air. The theme
for Vaudeville for the Frightened was written by Andrew Clark
and performed by Ryan Winters and Pistol Beauty. Original music
by Colby Van Camp. It was engineered by Jacob Cubbings
(21:47):
and Colby Van Camp. Special thanks to Marjorie Punnett, Corny Cole,
Lisa Lyon, Chris Borrows, Bill May, Tom dan Heiser, Julie
Talbot and Mary Gray Kay and as always, thank you
Joe Brandmeier. This has been a fourth down and tent
(22:09):
production
Superstition here and jealousy superstition here and jealousy.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Okay, okay them with your call him with your car.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
I'm on international frequency.
Speaker 4 (00:29):
Come here, tell me what you wait.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
I'll tell you what you are.
Speaker 5 (00:33):
It was a time when eating class medicine stream of
sturdy first time in.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Any first kids, kid, do you indeed think that either
there is life on other planets?
Speaker 6 (00:45):
Stop?
Speaker 3 (00:46):
This would be more effective at midnight and pounding winds
and crushing thunder, And even then it wouldn't frighten anyone.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
The flames clean.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
My soul of evil, of it's lust for blood, my second,
mister chel.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Welcome to Ian Punnett's Vaudeville for the Frightened, a fresh
mix of audio, art, music, interviews and fiction that will
have you wondering what is there to be afraid of?
Here's the Deacon of the Dark, Ian Punnett.
Speaker 6 (01:33):
The story I told in the Big Little Lie is
like ninety eight percent true.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
That's true, happened to me.
Speaker 6 (01:44):
There's actually a little clue in the way in which
I tell the story which indicates that to you already
it was a mistake state that we left in there
on purpose. But it's always made me wonder about that
one time I knowingly filed a false police report and
(02:06):
got away with it, seemingly sure. I was just a kid,
but I knew the officer who was interviewing me suspected
that I was lying about one aspect of the story,
but he saw something else in it, perhaps intuitively in
the lie that I told. And I'll never stop wondering
(02:30):
what the implications were of that lie. Down the road.
Justice may be blind, but she peques. If anybody should
know about the prevalence and the public facade of our
criminal justice system, it's criminologist doctor Catherine Ramslin of the
(02:50):
Sales University. A prolific author. She has written a book
every year for her time her life. I remember once
asking her whether she's published every single thought she's ever had.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
I started a blog. I didn't find it very and
I didn't like doing it.
Speaker 6 (03:14):
But that's still publishing in a way. You're just publishing
it to the internet, I guess.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
So, I know. I mean, I used to a long
time ago. I used to keep a dream journal.
Speaker 6 (03:23):
But but why now when you can just write a
book about your dreams and publish that because private?
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Is it?
Speaker 6 (03:31):
Really?
Speaker 2 (03:31):
But actually the dream journal was for getting more dreams,
because if you write your dreams down, you get more details,
more dreams, and more. It's more productive if you actually
do the writing. I used to run a dream group
and it's amazing.
Speaker 6 (03:46):
So now, what does it, Catherine Ramsland dream about? You
write about crime? You think about crime? Do you dream
about fluffy bunnies and unicorns.
Speaker 7 (03:54):
All the time?
Speaker 2 (03:56):
I dream about dogs a.
Speaker 5 (03:59):
Lot, and I dream about dogs, dogs, people that I know,
people that you know who become dogs.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
I do about TV shows that I've seen. I don't
know a lot of things you put together. You know,
your dream mind is put together so many things.
Speaker 6 (04:18):
Good things. She takes time off from her day job.
Doctor Catherine Ramsland both researches, writes about, and teaches about
mass killers, spree killers, serial killers. These men and even
sometimes women who fall into this, if one can use
(04:41):
such a term, an elite group of murderers who all
live among.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Us, extremely narcissistic elite class. Yeah, it's really about using
other people's pain to entertain or enrich themselves, right right,
and taking delight in it.
Speaker 6 (04:59):
And that's a serial killer motif, isn't it. Generally the
idea of.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Taking delights, Yeah, but not all. Some serial killers actually
have remorse that turned themselves in and some are delusional,
so they're not all like that. But but the statistic
sexually motivated serial killer who is a predator is exactly
like that.
Speaker 6 (05:20):
It is it true that serial killers just want to
be caught so they play cat and mouse games with
the police.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
They don't really want to be stabbed at. Really, that's
a myth. Is that a myth is a cat and
moss thing.
Speaker 6 (05:35):
But there are characteristics that link most serial killers together,
at least psychologically. That according to our special guest, former
FBI profiler John Douglas, for many, it all starts with
the moms. A good example of that is notorious serial
(05:59):
killer Ed Kemper. According to John Douglas.
Speaker 7 (06:03):
His he reminded his his mother of her ex ex husband,
looked the spitting image you know, of him, and so
she hated him and locked him down the basement where
there was a furnace down there, a gas furnace where
he'd fantasized was the devil hell and he'd had his
sister's dolls. He started decapitating the heads off of the dolls,
(06:24):
the arms, the legs, things, he would do to victims.
Later on, he also was into animal cruelty, buried cats alive,
you know, dissect dissect cats. He was giving psychological tests, uh,
for the psychologists, you know, administering them to other you know,
other inmates when he was when he was incarcerated. But
(06:47):
you know, it's it's one of these things. Again. You
look at the guy. He wouldn't be where he was
had it not been for all this this early childhood
stuff and with the you know, with with the mother.
Speaker 6 (06:59):
More from on Douglas coming up. But first I promised
you a big little reveal or a little big reveal. Anyway,
we're getting close to the end.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
Ian Punnett's Vaudeville for the Frightened Use Your Ears to
Fight Your Fears, Series one, The Bottom of the Box.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Hey, thanks for coming over, Fred.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
You kidding Proty.
Speaker 8 (07:46):
You saved me until the memorial service for the Campbell
girl is over today.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
The press owns that campus.
Speaker 8 (07:53):
Yeah, we brought an extra help for parking, so there
isn't much for me to do anyway, And what you got.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
I keep thinking about some things that Malory Sturgis said,
and I need a little help following up.
Speaker 8 (08:05):
Well, she teaches criminology. You know her insights are pretty good.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Yeah, I was definitely paying attention. For example, after she
brought up her husband's violent shooting nightmares, did she sound
a little jealous to you about his popularity?
Speaker 8 (08:21):
I don't know, only in a funny merril way. I guess.
I mean we all tease him about how beloved he is.
He does have a knack for saying the right things.
You know, people believe in it.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Uh huh, I suppose you're right. Something else, though, Did
the female doctor Sturgis sound like she was kidding when
she suggested we check the gun shows out of the fairgrounds?
I mean, didn't she sound like she was maybe dropping
a hint?
Speaker 8 (08:47):
Well, I mean I saw it as her trying to
be helpful. I mean she did get us gently back
on track on.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Those photos, right, But several times her hints incriminated her husband,
not exonerated him. What do you make of that so
called fuzzy anonymous tipster call. Was it somebody who got
it wrong about Dean Kale? Or was there something to
the rumor about Sturgis and the camel Girl?
Speaker 8 (09:10):
Judging by MoU's reaction when she learned about it, she
may have been suspecting something for a while. Her reaction
definitely colored the way I.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Looked at it.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yeah, me too. Okay, one last question I'm thinking about
when the female doctor Sturgis said rumors are all it
takes these days to end a career, that allegations are
as good as fact. Do you think she was talking
as a wife or as a criminologist.
Speaker 8 (09:37):
I don't know, but if I had to guess, I'd
say one hundred percent wife. Now, as a professor, she
knows the college campus climate these days, everybody's a little
afraid to say anything.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
I mean, just look at Dean Kale.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Somehow the pieces don't fit together. I know that Mark's
your friend and all, but I don't accept that he's mister.
From the moment I met him, I got this weird,
deceptive vibe. Could he have called in that rumor about
Dan Kale to get him out of the.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
Way without a recording?
Speaker 8 (10:10):
I don't think we'll ever know.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Want to help me check one more box off my list?
Speaker 8 (10:15):
Yeah, what do you need?
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Well, granted it's at the bottom of the list, but
who do you know at these traveling gun shows.
Speaker 8 (10:23):
Well, there's a guy in my force who works security
for the fair grounds, as we could ask him.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
I don't know what you're looking for.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Honestly, I'm looking for anybody who sold Mark Sturgis in
AR fifteen. Like I said, I'm just checking the box.
Probably didn't happen.
Speaker 8 (10:40):
Well, I won't tell you, you know. I mean, they
aren't required by law to keep or share those kinds
of records, and they get pretty touchy around cops and
AR fifteen's these days.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
It's been four days, and have them knows we need
a break.
Speaker 8 (10:55):
Yeah, and know there are no security cameras either. The
law allows almost total anonymity.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Just in case we need to talk to him. Where
is Mark stur just this afternoon?
Speaker 3 (11:06):
Get this?
Speaker 8 (11:07):
Mary Kay Campbell's family asked if he'd do her eulogy
at the memorial service, the Gospel of the Lord.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
No, no, I get it. I'm not trying to harass you.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
No.
Speaker 4 (11:25):
What I'm looking for is anybody who might be willing
to help with a police investigation into a murder. Yeah, yeah,
that's right, Yeah, the death of Mary Kay Campbell.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Excuse me, I am not violating your Second Amendment rights.
I'm a handgun owner too, and I'm a police detective
investigating a murder. Uh no, No, I don't need a name.
I need to see if you recognize a face. All
I'm asking is for you to look at a photo
that I'm going to text you.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
Yeah, yeah, I know him. He's a retired cop.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
What do you think he'd help?
Speaker 3 (11:58):
Hey, I think I have some.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Do you have a number? Your metro could really use
a break here? So the photo doesn't look familiar, but
the name does. Hang on, let me explain that to
my partner. Good Getfred. This guy on the phone is
a retired detective who keeps meticulous records. He doesn't recognize
the face, but when I told him the name, he
said he thought he remembered logging it for monthly drawing.
(12:23):
Hang on, yes, sir, still here? What did you find?
M Sturgis? What's the address? Yeah? Can you hang on
to that for about an hour or so and we'll
be right there. Okay, So here's the story. Every month,
this guy gives away a twenty count box of high
(12:44):
quality AMMO of your choice. But you need to show
a driver's license when you fill out the forum because
you have to agree to be on his mailing list.
He was just going through his entries when he knew
he had written down an M. Sturgis. He also said
that he doesn't remember Mark's face, but he had sold
a couple of rifles to people near the college recently
(13:05):
and talked to a guy about a banished thirty suppressor.
He's going to go through his receipts and make a
copy of the sweep Steak's entry. I'm going to drive
up there right now. Would you mind going back to
the campus?
Speaker 8 (13:18):
Yeah, it should be easy enough. The memorial service is
probably still going on.
Speaker 6 (13:23):
Oh, Fellowship, Divine, we think really struggled. They and Gloria shine.
Yet all are one in THEE. For all are thine.
Say it with me, Allelujah. For the most part, serial
(13:48):
killers are made, not born. Researchers such as doctor Catherine
Ramselind and John Douglas, granddaddy of all FBI profilers, a
co founder of the FBI's Behavioral Unit, the author of
the book and the subject of the Netflix series mind Hunter,
(14:09):
as portrayed in Silence of the Lambs by actor Scott Glenn,
and now a professional legal consultant on various aspects of
the US justice system. John Douglas says there are distinct
characteristics that serial killers hold together, and you'll hear about
(14:30):
that next as Vaudeville for the Frightened continues.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
Ian Punnett's Vaudeville for the Frightened usualiers to Fight Your
Fears Series one, The Bottom of the Box.
Speaker 6 (15:02):
John Douglas says there are distinct characteristics that serial killers
hold together, but when he started interviewing the most famous
serial killers first hand, he had to develop his own approach.
Speaker 7 (15:19):
I'm trying to understand the criminal personality of the why
plus how equals who and here when we have an
on sub case, we're trying to figure out the who.
Here we have people who are incarcerated, we know who
they are. I'm trying to find out the motivation, you know,
why they did it, victimology, why they selected a particular victim,
(15:39):
why they did the things that they did to the victim,
What was the pre offense behavior, what was the post
offense behavior if they confess, what was the circum stances
surrounding the interrogation that made this person volunteer and provide,
you know, provide information to the you know, the police.
Speaker 6 (16:00):
What John Douglas learns is that there are two types
of serial killers organized and disorganized, which is part of
the equation of figuring out the unsub.
Speaker 7 (16:14):
And the only time you got emotional was when I
brought up again early childhood.
Speaker 6 (16:18):
Mother, lack of abandonment.
Speaker 7 (16:21):
Yeah, now, yeah, then they got emotional, but as far
emotional for the crime. They it's justifiable homicide in their ways,
thinking they deserve it. I mean, I have my own problem.
I'm here, incarcert I'm locked up twenty four to seven.
There's nothing there. So when you get a psychologist going
and do an interview, and these guys, they know how
(16:43):
to shed a tear, They know what the buzzwords, what
the shrinks want to hear from them. So if you
go in again not armed with the facts of the case,
the background, all the information there, and have that, but
you made somebody interpret because they don't necessarily have that
background interpreted for them. What you know what it means
if you're making decisions probation and parole and it told them,
(17:03):
they said, you have no business making those decisions because
you really don't understand the crime or the criminal who
you're talking to.
Speaker 6 (17:10):
You can learn a lot about any kind of killer
by interviewing John Douglas because By interviewing convicted serial killers
known subjects such as Charles Manson, Richard Speck, and Ed Kemper,
John Douglas was able to narrow down the search for unsubs,
(17:32):
that is, unknown subjects, complete lack of empathy for the victims,
abuse of small animals, a certain joy in seeing others
in pain. These were some of the red flags his
work helped publicize. In the case of many serial killers,
(17:53):
moms are sore subjects, such as Ed Kemper. He also
knew where tell how to manipulate psychologists that were sent
in to analyze him.
Speaker 7 (18:07):
And that's when when I conduct these interviews, I'm looking
in the faces of these people and I'm trying to
imagine sometimes, Okay, now this guy. I'm looking at this
guy and he looks real, normal, normal his expression, but
this is the face that the victim was looking at,
and that this was not the kind of face or
expression that the victim saw or this kind of behavior
(18:28):
that he's presenting to me. And sometimes it's hard to
believe because because my guy, you think, you know, this
guy here did these things to this victimy and he's acting.
So he's acting, it's kind of normal. He looks he
just looks like the average the average joe, the.
Speaker 6 (18:44):
Average joe like well, you know, like Brian Koberger who
may have gone from being a mass killer in Idaho
to a serial killer. Police are still investigating. So if
it's true that both disorganized and organized serial killers are everywhere, well,
(19:10):
why don't we hear more about it in the news?
Why aren't police officials more proactive about reaching out to
the public to warn us about who's at work. Catherine
Ramslin says, there's a perfectly good reason for that.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
There are all kinds of pressures on investigators. But they
also don't want they want to panic people. They don't
want people out there investigating on their own and trying
to solve it. They don't want serial killer groupies running
up there. You know, there really are a lot of
considerations for investigators in terms of why they might downplay
it in the media, which doesn't mean they're downplaying it themselves.
Speaker 6 (19:51):
How often does somebody start as a sexual predator and
end up a serial killer?
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Well, it really depends on their degree of anger and
the degree of you know, the kinds of perhaps kinds
of pornography look at, or what they need to satisfy them.
If a rape isn't enough and they need violence, the
chances they will probably eventually start turned to killing in
(20:18):
order to satisfy that drive.
Speaker 6 (20:20):
Average joes that are doing such horrible things. And as
John Douglas points out, you'd never think that if you
just looked at their faces. I think that's a concept
that many people struggle with when it comes to killers.
(20:42):
They don't look any different, they just think differently. And
that is the last clue you'll get from me before
the big reveal in the next episode of Bottom of
the Box, part of the Vaudeville for the Frightened series.
(21:03):
This is Ian Punnett Again. You should be able to
solve this puzzle of the Bottom of the Box with
all of the clues that you've already been given, but
hang on for the big reveal episode next. This episode
(21:25):
of Vaudeville for the Frightened featured Andrew and Jen Smith
of the Wildcat Community Theater of the Air. The theme
for Vaudeville for the Frightened was written by Andrew Clark
and performed by Ryan Winters and Pistol Beauty. Original music
by Colby Van Camp. It was engineered by Jacob Cubbings
(21:47):
and Colby Van Camp. Special thanks to Marjorie Punnett, Corny Cole,
Lisa Lyon, Chris Borrows, Bill May, Tom dan Heiser, Julie
Talbot and Mary Gray Kay and as always, thank you
Joe Brandmeier. This has been a fourth down and tent
(22:09):
production
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