July 25, 2023 • 34 mins
The investigators the opportunity to prove they aren't as clueless as they might have appeared. The killer of Mary Kay Campbell is...
Researcher/writer Kevin David explores the criminal brain itself; Katherine Ramsland
Did you get it right? Was it a "big surprise?"
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Superstition here and jealousy, superstition here and jealousy.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Okay, okay them with your call him with your car.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
I'm on international frequency.
Speaker 4 (00:29):
Come here. Tell me what you I'll tell you what
you are.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
There was a time when eating classic stream of Sturdy
first time in any first leven kids, kid, do.
Speaker 5 (00:42):
You indeed think you there is life on other planets?
Speaker 4 (00:45):
Stop?
Speaker 6 (00:46):
This would be more effective at midnight and pounding winds
and crushing thunder, And even then it wouldn't frighten anyone.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
The flames cleanse.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
My soul of it is evil, of it's lust for blood.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
My second mister Michael, Welcome to Ean Punnett's Vaudeville for
the Frightened, a fresh mix of audio, art, music, interviews
and fiction that will have you wondering what is there
(01:24):
to be afraid of? Here's the Deacon of the dark,
Ean Punnett.
Speaker 4 (01:32):
Maybe you can resonate with this with this. If I
don't make the effort to sort out how certain events
have impacted me, my brain will do it for me
while I'm sleeping. And this has led to a lifelong
fascination with the proper care and feeding of consciousness. For example,
(01:53):
my brain apparently made up a story about a shady
car and a scary man trying to abduct me in
front of the house of the scary teenage boy that
tried to abduct me. Then my will went along with
that lie, even though I was raised to always tell
(02:14):
the truth. I was lucky, and that whatever terrible thing
that Solomon Talbert had in mind by luring me onto
that slide was interrupted by the arrival of my brother,
but my subconscious was still playing it out. To this day,
I've never had a single regret about lying to my
(02:37):
parents or lying to the police in such a way
as it led them to Solomon Telbert's house. I can
still ruminate about past decisions in my sleep and even
in my waking life, about a lot dumber stuff that
I've done in my life, but not the lie I told.
(02:59):
The lying to the police has given me a unique insight, though,
into what others who were not as lucky as I
was must go through. Kevin Davis is an old college friend.
We called him SCHMEV, and he and I used to
write together at the Daily Aliini at the University of Illinois,
(03:24):
where we were in college. He's also the author of
The Brain Defense, a book about the intersection between disrupted
brain processes and the criminal justice system. Schmev says that
although it's not the same as having a physical traumatic
(03:44):
brain injury, childhood trauma can be just as impactful.
Speaker 7 (03:50):
When we're young, When we're children and when our brains
are in the process of developing. If we goes through
is like that, it can sabotage normal brain development. There
was a turn that was just so shocking to me
that a psychologist had described it as incubated in hell.
(04:13):
In other words, you know when you're when you're it's
you're most vulnerable when you're learning, when your brain is developing.
If you grow up in a situation of trauma, it's
sabotage is normal brain development.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
Post traumatic stress disorder, common among combat war veterans, can
distort reality. Typically, people suffering from PTSD experience negative thoughts
about themselves, other people in the world, hopelessness about the future,
(04:52):
memory problems such as repressed thoughts, difficulty maintaining close relationships,
and feeling detached from family and friends, not unlike what
some people experience if they have postpartum depression. Not surprisingly,
(05:12):
the number one symptom of PTSD related to mental illness
is fear. Fear of all sorts of things. Both pervasive
fear and acute fear based thinking rarely leads to good
decision making, which is often the matrix for a life
(05:33):
of danger, destructiveness, self destructiveness, and self medication.
Speaker 7 (05:40):
The cook Honty Jail here in Chicago, which is one
of the largest jails in the country, has a huge
population of people who are mentally or have mental health problems.
Our jails, our nation's jails, contain more people with mental
health problems than mental health facility.
Speaker 4 (06:01):
So protect your melon from both hardware and software frags.
They have a way of working themselves out to your
conscious brain. Eventually they have a way of working against you.
(06:21):
Memories that are dead but not forgotten is the theme
of the big reveal in this episode of Bottom of
the Box. Just when we think we've successfully tamped down
our fears and our jealousies, they squish out sideways and
(06:42):
make us do the weirdest things, including apparently sometimes kill.
That's coming up next on Vaudeville for the Frightened.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Ian Punnett's Ford film for the Frightened Use Your Ears
to Fight Your Fears Series one. The Bottom of the box.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
This is the final recorded interview with doctor Sturgis on
the morning of September twenty sixth.
Speaker 5 (07:27):
At eight am.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Doctor Sturgis has not been mirandized. Sergeant Fred Lueger from
Campus Police is present plus Attorney Chloe Wilson. This interview
is being conducted at the Metro Station interview room. Anything
you'd like to add, Miss Wilson. Is my client under arrest,
not at this time, but an arrest will be made today.
(07:49):
When an arrest is made, your client will be mirandized appropriately.
As of right now, your client is free to go.
But I will not be requiring doctor Sturgis to answer
any questions and therefore self incrimination will not be an
issue proceed From the beginning, certain aspects of this case
confounded me. I would never have solved this case, I believe,
(08:13):
were not for the help of Sergeant Lueger and the
Campus Police Department. The key player in our arrest efforts, however,
turns out to be you, Doctor Sturgis. Me, no, the
other M.
Speaker 5 (08:27):
Sturgis. Where are you going with this?
Speaker 1 (08:30):
The male M. Sturgis gives off this weird guilty vibe
to me, but I could not put my finger on why.
It wasn't anything, he said, It was just a sense
that he was hiding something behind this doctor popular, doctor
humble exterior. Like the morning of our first meeting the
other doctor. Sturgis was kind enough to emphasize her concern
(08:53):
that her husband was a cheater when she slammed the
bedroom doctor, saying, bastard.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
I apologize for that.
Speaker 6 (08:59):
Yes she did wrote it.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
And I appreciate that. But you are the family clue leaker,
aren't you, doctor Sturgis. I mean from you, I learned
that your husband is so popular it kind of nauseates you.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Right, I was kidding, And.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
You were also kidding that he's a terrible shot with
a rifle, so I ought to check the weekend gun
shows out at the fairground to double check to make
sure he hadn't bought a new rifle to practice with.
Speaker 7 (09:26):
Was that a joke?
Speaker 2 (09:28):
That's not what I meant. I was teasing, so you.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Said, just like when you were teasing when you said
that your husband has everything handed to him, whether he
wants it or not, things that you work hard at
but don't get. But you weren't kidding when you said
that rumors are all it takes these days to end
a career that allegations are as good as fact. You
(09:52):
both agreed on that a so called anonymous tipster leaving
a message that could imply your husband was sleeping with
a student be a career killer, and that wasn't funny either.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
I thought you said you had no recording of that call,
just Officer Goodman's memory of it.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
I may have been lying, you know how it is
with computer systems. There's always a backup to the backup.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
That wasn't me, and you're bluffing.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Or maybe you are? You sure that if I were
to rush a recording through the State Crime Lab for
a voice print analysis, it wouldn't match yours. I got
lots of recordings of your voice this week.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
You're just mad because I ridiculed your investigation of my husband.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
But did you really Does it count that you were
exposing holes and creating others at the same time you
made sure that I never quite took my eye off
your husband completely?
Speaker 4 (10:43):
What are you talking about?
Speaker 5 (10:45):
Yeah, I'm really confused here.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
You are doctor Markster just attorney? Correct?
Speaker 5 (10:50):
I am?
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Then I would think that it is in the best
interests of your client to let me finish do I
need a lawyer. Even if you had an attorney here,
he or she could not stop me from talking. You
could only walk out if we decided not to make
any arrests. Nobody is being asked to speak.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
Chloe. Can you represent me and Mal at the same time.
Speaker 5 (11:15):
There's no rule against it, but it's complicated. The Bar
Association strongly advises against it. Mal, you don't have to
say anything, don't talk, just listen.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Exactly, and she's free to walk out at any time.
I'll explain everything, just to your first client. Explain what
well first, Your wife's head fakes. Every time she seemed
to clear you, she would say or do something that
reconnected you to the story. A good example is how
(11:46):
your wife first intentionally floated the idea that you might
have gone to a gun show that you could never
resist a sweep steake's box, which you then confirmed she
wasn't musing or make conversation. To follow up on her insinuation,
Sergeant Lutteger and I called around to the usual dealers,
(12:07):
where we came across a retired cop. He sells rifles
and has sweepstakes drawings at the end of every month
for free. Amo, but nobody can enter without a driver's license.
Then lo and behold. Right there at the bottom of
the box was an entry for you. Guessed it m
Sturgis with your address an entry.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
I've never been to a gun.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Show, I know, but your wife has, right, ma'am. The
anonymous so called phone tip failed because Officer Goodman fell
asleep at the switch. After Mary Kay Campbell's death, however,
suddenly you had another bite at the apple monger. Some
rumors about your husband, just far enough that it might
keep him from getting that promotion, but then never too
(12:51):
far that he became an actual suspect.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
I didn't have anything to do with that poor girl's death.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Oh we know. Like I said, it was just an
upper tunistic headfake. I went along with you because you're
the criminologist and I only studied psychology before the police academy.
That in that wild goose chase you sent me on
to the sweepstakes box from the last gun show led
to the arrest of Mary Kay Campbell's actual killer.
Speaker 4 (13:19):
What you arrested somebody?
Speaker 6 (13:22):
Yeah, about an hour ago. We had to wait a
bit and he had some printing to do before the
press conference.
Speaker 5 (13:28):
There's nothing on my phone about it.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Yeah, we're keeping that on the DL until we finished
the digital posters and press releases. It went down like this.
Yesterday afternoon, I met up with that retired cop who
runs a booth in the Traveling Gun Show. Naturally, he
wants to remain anonymous because it goes against gun show
culture to inform on customers. I drove out to his
place to grab a copy of the entry Blake with m.
(13:52):
Sturgis on it. He didn't recognize you, Mark, but when
I showed him your wife's faculty photo from the website,
he distinctly remembered her flashing a driver's license and filling
out a form, although he didn't make the connection to
a kid who had bought a suppressor.
Speaker 5 (14:08):
And a night scope.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
But why would she?
Speaker 1 (14:11):
I don't know, let's ask her. Was it because your
career had stalled? But your husband was doctor popular and
headed for who knows where? Did you just want to
dirty him up a little bit? But you didn't want
him to go to jail because you're the criminologist and
you know how to play. This must have been very
empowering to suddenly get the cops to focus on your
(14:31):
husband and then supposedly clear his name than put the
light right back on him again at your will?
Speaker 4 (14:38):
Did you really intentionally try to make me look bad?
Speaker 2 (14:42):
It wasn't like that.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
It was just for for fun.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
You put us both here. This is all on you, Okay.
Speaker 4 (14:49):
Don't throw this back on me. You were trying to
sabotage my promotion. You know I didn't even want it.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Do you not see how belittling that is? The thing
I want more than anything in the world, being a Dean, and.
Speaker 5 (15:02):
You're virtually a locke for it.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
But you don't want it. You'll always get to be
the hero, the one that everyone adores, But you don't
see how hard that is to be around all the time.
Speaker 4 (15:13):
Then why not just divorce me?
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Because that's when you become the marital martyr? Mark? Oh,
I heard she divorced him because he was too good
for her. Do know how many women would be throwing
themselves at doctor Dean, nice guy with a broken heart,
freshly divorced, scorned by a shrewish wife. And that's just
how they'd talk about me. And if I divorced you,
I'd only be jeopardizing my own financial security. Just as
(15:36):
we're finally getting really comfortable.
Speaker 5 (15:38):
I don't see any crime here. If any of this
is true, these people should be in couple's therapy, not jail.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
Keep telling you that I think that what our esteemed
criminologists did was gross, but she doesn't have to answer
to the law, only to her family. They can both
go right now since we already arrested Mary Kay Campbell's killer.
This whole merit drama was just a distraction, compounding human error,
nothing more. If you need me to state it, I'll
(16:06):
say it for the record. There is no proof that
doctor Mark Sturgis was sleeping with a student. He does
not own a weapon, he had not gone to a
gun show, and it was just a sad coincidence that
the Campbell woman was wearing his braves hat, sitting at
his desk writing an email to him when she was shot.
(16:27):
Sometimes the hardest part of being a detective is sifting
through the red herrings. And doctor Mallory Sturgis, I think
what you did was awful, but it can't be too
mad because we never would have tripped over an eighteen
year old who bought a suppressor and a Sitemark Wraith
nightscope said he was going to go night hunting for
coyotes suppressor.
Speaker 4 (16:47):
Yeah, a silencer adds to accuracy as well as suppresses
the sound. This is why nobody recognized the shot that night.
It would just sound like a loud thud.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
His name is Bran Dantrey. By the way, you know him.
This retired cop got this kid to fill out a
form and then he held onto it CoP's intuition because
of how hinky Dantrey was acting. He lives on the
other side of the woods behind the college, about five
minutes from here. He'd been using that suppressor on his
rifle to shoot possums and raccoons in the woods and
(17:20):
then skin them in the moonlight, usually while they were
still alive. He has a box of pelts in his
dad's basement that he's been selling online. Coyotes and other
creatures would eat the carcasses that he left behind.
Speaker 7 (17:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (17:34):
I'd seen him around at night for years on his bicycle,
and I never came on campus his mom's dad. He
always he seemed a little lost. I had no idea
what he had in his backpack. On Sunday night, he
was on the prow and wondered whether he could pull
the trigger on a human being. So we did just
(17:54):
to see if he could do it. He had seen
the Campbell woman earlier that night. It's just that simple,
one shot, one killed, totally random. He has all the
characteristics of a future serial killer. I mean, we never
would have caught him this early if we hadn't been
led to those gun shows.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Which means I'm not arresting you for obstruction of justice,
doctor Sturgis, but you probably will have to testify at
as trial and the truth of all of this ugliness
will come out. That will be up to the prosecutors. Personally,
I think when the students learn that you made up
stories about Mark to throw suspicion on him out of jealousy,
you could lose your job and make him even more popular.
Speaker 4 (18:35):
I'm a little tired of hearing about all this CoP's
intuition stuff. Detective Brody. You told me a couple of
times that I give off a deceptive guilty vibe, and
now you know the truth.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Oh no, I don't know what you're being deceptive about,
but all stand by what I said. Just because I
may never know it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Speaker 5 (18:59):
So, m kay, Campbell was a random victim in the
wrong window. At the wrong time.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
More like a coincidence. He told us that he'd seen
her jogging around the campus earlier, and he liked how
her ponytail came out from the back of your Brave's hat.
The bouncing reminded him of a squirrel's tale. By coincidence,
she was in doctor Sturgi's old office at two thirty
in the morning when Dantry was on the prowl. What
(19:26):
made this kid so evil? I don't know, why, don't
we ask the criminologist? Born that way, full of anger,
brain damage, shaken baby, poor impulse control, a narcissistic sociopath
who feels entitled to decide who lives or dies. I
guess we'll find out at the trial. If there is one.
I feel lucky we caught him early.
Speaker 5 (19:47):
We hope.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
The FBI Behavioral Unit estimates about two thousand serial killers
are on the prowl for victims at any given time.
Speaker 6 (19:55):
That's about forty in every state statistically there are He
was bound to be one in the area. I'm probably two,
maybe one active. The other with the same psychological profile
whose dormant weob and not killing right now, could be
somebody on this very campus.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
He just hasn't been triggered yet.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Criminologists call this opportunity structures, crimes more likely to occur
when there's a combination of a possible victim accessible to predation,
a motivated offender, and a lack of competent guardians. I
won't ask whether he felt bad.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
Well, I did ask him that though.
Speaker 6 (20:31):
He said he was disappointed that he didn't feel any
different than if he'd just shot a raccouver. He's hoping
for a different kind of rush, but there wasn't one.
He thought he might have felt something closer to elation
if he had been able to skin her while she
was still breathing.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
But he was ungry.
Speaker 6 (20:51):
He said he was afraid of getting caught, so he
went inside and had some powsome jerky that he'd made.
He says this was his first human victy dumb bod.
People like him have a slippery grip on the truth.
We're not accepting that yet.
Speaker 4 (21:07):
That is so sick and Mal. You thought I was
like this kid.
Speaker 5 (21:14):
Mark I Detective Brody. Can you give Mark and Mal
this room for a few minutes.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Yeah, we're done here. I have to prepare for that
press conference we're going to put up some posters of
the five missing area women from the past few years
that we think Dantry might have known to see if
there's a connection, We're hoping the public can help. It's
going to be a long afternoon answer and crank calls, though,
I just know it. Let me grab my recorder. Fred,
(21:39):
It's been a pleasure, Chloe. I know I'll be seeing
you around the hallways. I'm sure to the two doctor
and doctor Sturgis's good luck.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
We'll be outside in a minute.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Everybody, I'm sorry.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
Do you hate me that much that you wanted me
to look like I'm some creepy rando kid in the neighborhood.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Originally I felt cheated on by all the attention you
were getting. I was jealous, and things just got crazy.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
You mean you got crazy? If that makes you feel
any better At this point, nothing will make me feel better.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 4 (22:20):
Look at me, Look at me now. Tell me, honestly,
was it you who made that call to campus security?
Never mind, I know the answer.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 4 (22:36):
You have no idea how hard I have tried to
be the perfect husband and perfect father. I hold in
a lot more than you realize. In the end, it
doesn't even matter. You cannot imagine the pressure I feel.
Sometimes I just can't let out. I need to get away.
(23:00):
I need to get away from you for a while.
I'll be staying up on box Lake.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Well what about me? Can I come?
Speaker 7 (23:08):
You?
Speaker 4 (23:09):
Hate the cabin and the box. No, I need to
blow off some steam alone.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Just do whatever you need to do to feel better
and then come back to me.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
Okay, do what I need to do to feel better.
Remember you said.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
That Ian Punnett's Vaudefield for the Frightened Use your Ears
(23:56):
to Fight Your Fears Series one, The Bottom of the Box.
Speaker 4 (24:02):
So wait, we went through six episodes to solve a
mystery with just some rando killer. I don't think so.
In fact, I wrote it so I know. So there's
more to this story, although we still don't have, I think,
an adequate answer about the meaning of the Bottom of
(24:25):
the Box. Along the way, we have explored, however, the
two different types of serial killers, if you will, that
is to say, the organized and the disorganized. Which one
did Mary Kay Campbell fall into? Well, I would think
she was a victim of a disorganized serial killer, somebody
(24:48):
that was just playing at it. They didn't have a system,
They weren't out trying to get back at somebody. They
were just mad at the world, playing something out, pulled
a trigger, killed a woman. And maybe there's more right,
I mean, they are trying to put up some posters
(25:09):
and find out some more details about missing women. But
I mean, it still doesn't really answer the question. And
if it's an organized serial killer that they're looking for,
maybe they just caught the guy or early. Sometimes there's
a little bit of a blend. Doctor Catherine Ramsland is
(25:32):
a criminologist. Back in twenty ten, we were talking about
Urine vander Slut, Remember that guy. He was in Aruba
and he claimed and then unclaimed and then insinuated that
he was responsible for the death of Natalie Holloway, a girl,
a high school girl from Alabama who had come to
(25:55):
party with some friends whose body has never been found.
You are in vander Slut. I said at one point
that he was willing to give the family information about
where her body actually was for money. And then later
on he's responsible for a rage killing in Peru of
(26:19):
a woman that he had hooked up with that he
said was also a victim of just an accident. We
talked to doctor Catherine Ramslin about this back then and
about your in vander Slut. What profile did he fit?
Speaker 8 (26:35):
This guy's deceptive, manipulative, he's always looking for a fact,
he's always looking for his own advantage. He's remorseless. The
chances are good. I mean, he hasn't been diagnosed. I
don't want to do that from the aarmchair, but you know,
he definitely has what you would think would be a
psychopath or certainly a narcissistic personality disorder at the very least.
(26:59):
But the psychopath is a manipulative, deceptive, remorseless person who
looks to his own advantage or her own advantage at
all times, and will play people constantly just for fun.
Speaker 9 (27:14):
So the how in the scale? How does that work?
Narcissistic personality is a case of somebody who does what
that leads up to a psychopathic personality.
Speaker 4 (27:28):
What are the degrees between the two?
Speaker 8 (27:30):
Well, you don't it. Man't look at it as the degrees.
It's two different and distinct but overlapping personality disorders. Whereas
with narcissistic personality, you're very much enclosed within your own
self concerns and very self indulgent, but you still have
room for remorse and for you know, being engaged with people.
(27:52):
In a way, the psychopath is a much more cold
blooded type of person.
Speaker 9 (27:57):
So they overlap in the sense that he is at
least like a narcissist, yes, but he it may be
worse than just narcissism, and that he really is in
the psychopathic.
Speaker 8 (28:10):
I think we're definitely looking at a guy who doesn't
mind swindling his friends to care what he needs, you know,
lying easily. He knows he's being watched, and yet he
doesn't mind cheating people, you know, picking up girlfriends, killing
a girl, having I guess he had espresso in the
(28:31):
room while he considered what he was going to do,
as if there wasn't a dead body lying right there.
I mean, that was part of what he had said
in his confession, So very very cold. And if she
had by accident, fallen or something, you know, why didn't
you tell someone?
Speaker 4 (28:47):
Why did he just leave right right.
Speaker 9 (28:51):
The case of Natalie Holloway, to go back to the
young girl high school senior.
Speaker 4 (28:58):
The story is it was I believe.
Speaker 9 (29:01):
It's been confirmed, is that when the Holloway family flew
to Aruba when they heard that Natalie had not gotten
on the plane. They immediately flew to Aruba to assist
in the search of their daughter. The police said, oh,
she's going to turn up. She's off doing drugs with
some guy. We've seen it a million times. They showed
(29:23):
no particular concern, They did not send out anybody, and
so the family took it upon themselves to investigate. They
you know, they started saying, they tracked it down. They said,
who is she last seen with, and they said, Oh,
it's this kid Oran, And so they went to where
he was and they asked people that knew him, and
the first thing the family said they were told is, oh, yeah,
(29:46):
Oran does that a lot. He's always looking for young girls.
He's always looking to take advantage of girls. And I thought, oh,
that's so interesting, because that seems like that would fit
the profile right away of a predator. If other people
right away are picking up that you're always on the prowl,
at least in some low level form, you're a predator.
Speaker 4 (30:07):
Would you not agree?
Speaker 8 (30:08):
Absolutely? And there is some evidence that he was skulking
around trying to find grows he could sell into prostitution
and things like that. So yeah, he's definitely a predator.
But we can we take the step to serial killer.
Not yet, it's at this point it's all alleged.
Speaker 9 (30:26):
Sure would you be would you be as would you
be interested in doing? Knowing what you know?
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Would you?
Speaker 9 (30:35):
Catherine Ramslan say it's there would be a profit in
going and tracking all of the different ports of call
that you're in. Vander Salute has been in over the
years to look to see whether there's another case that
fits this profile in other cities around the world.
Speaker 8 (30:51):
Yeah, I mean, from what we see in him, it's
unlikely that he's done this five years apart without any
other kind of activity in between. But the only problem
with that is the level of investigative skill and record
keeping you're going to find in these other countries might
not be to the level you would hope for. So
(31:13):
just because you go do that doesn't mean you're going
to find cases. But I still think it's certainly worth doing,
because I don't believe that with the attitude he has
and his mo and his sort of off handed feeling
that he's untouchable, that he's only done this twice in
five years, I don't think so.
Speaker 4 (31:33):
The level of the investigator has to be equal to
the level of the suspect. I hadn't thought of it
that way. How many offenders have gone undetected only to
offend again because their talent for deception was greater than
the talent of the investigators. Well, detectives like Brody in
(31:55):
the end are left with nothing but their suspicions, their intuition,
and rely on getting breaks to solve crimes. Bigger fish
swim free. For example, catching the killer in a random
shooting is no small accomplishment. But this big reveal was
(32:16):
hidden by an even bigger surprise, and that's what's truly
waiting for us at the bottom of the box in
the next episode. This episode of Vaudeville for the Frightened
featured the Wildcat Community Theater of the Air with Andrew
(32:39):
and Jen Smith, Gabrielle Warrender, Marjorie Punnett and Ed Weigel,
our announcer and friend. The theme for Vaudeville for the
Frightened was written by Andrew Clark and performed by Ryan
Winters and Pistol Beauty. Original music by Colby Van Camp,
engineered by Jacob Hummings, Colby Van Kemp and Mason Kamara.
(33:04):
Special thanks to Marjorie Punnett, Corny Cole, Lisa Lyon, Chris Boros,
Bill May, Tom dan Heiser and Julie Talbot. And thank
you Joe Brennan. This has been a fourth Down and
Ten Productions. SI
Superstition here and jealousy, superstition here and jealousy.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Okay, okay them with your call him with your car.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
I'm on international frequency.
Speaker 4 (00:29):
Come here. Tell me what you I'll tell you what
you are.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
There was a time when eating classic stream of Sturdy
first time in any first leven kids, kid, do.
Speaker 5 (00:42):
You indeed think you there is life on other planets?
Speaker 4 (00:45):
Stop?
Speaker 6 (00:46):
This would be more effective at midnight and pounding winds
and crushing thunder, And even then it wouldn't frighten anyone.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
The flames cleanse.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
My soul of it is evil, of it's lust for blood.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
My second mister Michael, Welcome to Ean Punnett's Vaudeville for
the Frightened, a fresh mix of audio, art, music, interviews
and fiction that will have you wondering what is there
(01:24):
to be afraid of? Here's the Deacon of the dark,
Ean Punnett.
Speaker 4 (01:32):
Maybe you can resonate with this with this. If I
don't make the effort to sort out how certain events
have impacted me, my brain will do it for me
while I'm sleeping. And this has led to a lifelong
fascination with the proper care and feeding of consciousness. For example,
(01:53):
my brain apparently made up a story about a shady
car and a scary man trying to abduct me in
front of the house of the scary teenage boy that
tried to abduct me. Then my will went along with
that lie, even though I was raised to always tell
(02:14):
the truth. I was lucky, and that whatever terrible thing
that Solomon Talbert had in mind by luring me onto
that slide was interrupted by the arrival of my brother,
but my subconscious was still playing it out. To this day,
I've never had a single regret about lying to my
(02:37):
parents or lying to the police in such a way
as it led them to Solomon Telbert's house. I can
still ruminate about past decisions in my sleep and even
in my waking life, about a lot dumber stuff that
I've done in my life, but not the lie I told.
(02:59):
The lying to the police has given me a unique insight, though,
into what others who were not as lucky as I
was must go through. Kevin Davis is an old college friend.
We called him SCHMEV, and he and I used to
write together at the Daily Aliini at the University of Illinois,
(03:24):
where we were in college. He's also the author of
The Brain Defense, a book about the intersection between disrupted
brain processes and the criminal justice system. Schmev says that
although it's not the same as having a physical traumatic
(03:44):
brain injury, childhood trauma can be just as impactful.
Speaker 7 (03:50):
When we're young, When we're children and when our brains
are in the process of developing. If we goes through
is like that, it can sabotage normal brain development. There
was a turn that was just so shocking to me
that a psychologist had described it as incubated in hell.
(04:13):
In other words, you know when you're when you're it's
you're most vulnerable when you're learning, when your brain is developing.
If you grow up in a situation of trauma, it's
sabotage is normal brain development.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
Post traumatic stress disorder, common among combat war veterans, can
distort reality. Typically, people suffering from PTSD experience negative thoughts
about themselves, other people in the world, hopelessness about the future,
(04:52):
memory problems such as repressed thoughts, difficulty maintaining close relationships,
and feeling detached from family and friends, not unlike what
some people experience if they have postpartum depression. Not surprisingly,
(05:12):
the number one symptom of PTSD related to mental illness
is fear. Fear of all sorts of things. Both pervasive
fear and acute fear based thinking rarely leads to good
decision making, which is often the matrix for a life
(05:33):
of danger, destructiveness, self destructiveness, and self medication.
Speaker 7 (05:40):
The cook Honty Jail here in Chicago, which is one
of the largest jails in the country, has a huge
population of people who are mentally or have mental health problems.
Our jails, our nation's jails, contain more people with mental
health problems than mental health facility.
Speaker 4 (06:01):
So protect your melon from both hardware and software frags.
They have a way of working themselves out to your
conscious brain. Eventually they have a way of working against you.
(06:21):
Memories that are dead but not forgotten is the theme
of the big reveal in this episode of Bottom of
the Box. Just when we think we've successfully tamped down
our fears and our jealousies, they squish out sideways and
(06:42):
make us do the weirdest things, including apparently sometimes kill.
That's coming up next on Vaudeville for the Frightened.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Ian Punnett's Ford film for the Frightened Use Your Ears
to Fight Your Fears Series one. The Bottom of the box.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
This is the final recorded interview with doctor Sturgis on
the morning of September twenty sixth.
Speaker 5 (07:27):
At eight am.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Doctor Sturgis has not been mirandized. Sergeant Fred Lueger from
Campus Police is present plus Attorney Chloe Wilson. This interview
is being conducted at the Metro Station interview room. Anything
you'd like to add, Miss Wilson. Is my client under arrest,
not at this time, but an arrest will be made today.
(07:49):
When an arrest is made, your client will be mirandized appropriately.
As of right now, your client is free to go.
But I will not be requiring doctor Sturgis to answer
any questions and therefore self incrimination will not be an
issue proceed From the beginning, certain aspects of this case
confounded me. I would never have solved this case, I believe,
(08:13):
were not for the help of Sergeant Lueger and the
Campus Police Department. The key player in our arrest efforts, however,
turns out to be you, Doctor Sturgis. Me, no, the
other M.
Speaker 5 (08:27):
Sturgis. Where are you going with this?
Speaker 1 (08:30):
The male M. Sturgis gives off this weird guilty vibe
to me, but I could not put my finger on why.
It wasn't anything, he said, It was just a sense
that he was hiding something behind this doctor popular, doctor
humble exterior. Like the morning of our first meeting the
other doctor. Sturgis was kind enough to emphasize her concern
(08:53):
that her husband was a cheater when she slammed the
bedroom doctor, saying, bastard.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
I apologize for that.
Speaker 6 (08:59):
Yes she did wrote it.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
And I appreciate that. But you are the family clue leaker,
aren't you, doctor Sturgis. I mean from you, I learned
that your husband is so popular it kind of nauseates you.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Right, I was kidding, And.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
You were also kidding that he's a terrible shot with
a rifle, so I ought to check the weekend gun
shows out at the fairground to double check to make
sure he hadn't bought a new rifle to practice with.
Speaker 7 (09:26):
Was that a joke?
Speaker 2 (09:28):
That's not what I meant. I was teasing, so you.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Said, just like when you were teasing when you said
that your husband has everything handed to him, whether he
wants it or not, things that you work hard at
but don't get. But you weren't kidding when you said
that rumors are all it takes these days to end
a career that allegations are as good as fact. You
(09:52):
both agreed on that a so called anonymous tipster leaving
a message that could imply your husband was sleeping with
a student be a career killer, and that wasn't funny either.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
I thought you said you had no recording of that call,
just Officer Goodman's memory of it.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
I may have been lying, you know how it is
with computer systems. There's always a backup to the backup.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
That wasn't me, and you're bluffing.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Or maybe you are? You sure that if I were
to rush a recording through the State Crime Lab for
a voice print analysis, it wouldn't match yours. I got
lots of recordings of your voice this week.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
You're just mad because I ridiculed your investigation of my husband.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
But did you really Does it count that you were
exposing holes and creating others at the same time you
made sure that I never quite took my eye off
your husband completely?
Speaker 4 (10:43):
What are you talking about?
Speaker 5 (10:45):
Yeah, I'm really confused here.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
You are doctor Markster just attorney? Correct?
Speaker 5 (10:50):
I am?
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Then I would think that it is in the best
interests of your client to let me finish do I
need a lawyer. Even if you had an attorney here,
he or she could not stop me from talking. You
could only walk out if we decided not to make
any arrests. Nobody is being asked to speak.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
Chloe. Can you represent me and Mal at the same time.
Speaker 5 (11:15):
There's no rule against it, but it's complicated. The Bar
Association strongly advises against it. Mal, you don't have to
say anything, don't talk, just listen.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Exactly, and she's free to walk out at any time.
I'll explain everything, just to your first client. Explain what
well first, Your wife's head fakes. Every time she seemed
to clear you, she would say or do something that
reconnected you to the story. A good example is how
(11:46):
your wife first intentionally floated the idea that you might
have gone to a gun show that you could never
resist a sweep steake's box, which you then confirmed she
wasn't musing or make conversation. To follow up on her insinuation,
Sergeant Lutteger and I called around to the usual dealers,
(12:07):
where we came across a retired cop. He sells rifles
and has sweepstakes drawings at the end of every month
for free. Amo, but nobody can enter without a driver's license.
Then lo and behold. Right there at the bottom of
the box was an entry for you. Guessed it m
Sturgis with your address an entry.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
I've never been to a gun.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Show, I know, but your wife has, right, ma'am. The
anonymous so called phone tip failed because Officer Goodman fell
asleep at the switch. After Mary Kay Campbell's death, however,
suddenly you had another bite at the apple monger. Some
rumors about your husband, just far enough that it might
keep him from getting that promotion, but then never too
(12:51):
far that he became an actual suspect.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
I didn't have anything to do with that poor girl's death.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Oh we know. Like I said, it was just an
upper tunistic headfake. I went along with you because you're
the criminologist and I only studied psychology before the police academy.
That in that wild goose chase you sent me on
to the sweepstakes box from the last gun show led
to the arrest of Mary Kay Campbell's actual killer.
Speaker 4 (13:19):
What you arrested somebody?
Speaker 6 (13:22):
Yeah, about an hour ago. We had to wait a
bit and he had some printing to do before the
press conference.
Speaker 5 (13:28):
There's nothing on my phone about it.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Yeah, we're keeping that on the DL until we finished
the digital posters and press releases. It went down like this.
Yesterday afternoon, I met up with that retired cop who
runs a booth in the Traveling Gun Show. Naturally, he
wants to remain anonymous because it goes against gun show
culture to inform on customers. I drove out to his
place to grab a copy of the entry Blake with m.
(13:52):
Sturgis on it. He didn't recognize you, Mark, but when
I showed him your wife's faculty photo from the website,
he distinctly remembered her flashing a driver's license and filling
out a form, although he didn't make the connection to
a kid who had bought a suppressor.
Speaker 5 (14:08):
And a night scope.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
But why would she?
Speaker 1 (14:11):
I don't know, let's ask her. Was it because your
career had stalled? But your husband was doctor popular and
headed for who knows where? Did you just want to
dirty him up a little bit? But you didn't want
him to go to jail because you're the criminologist and
you know how to play. This must have been very
empowering to suddenly get the cops to focus on your
(14:31):
husband and then supposedly clear his name than put the
light right back on him again at your will?
Speaker 4 (14:38):
Did you really intentionally try to make me look bad?
Speaker 2 (14:42):
It wasn't like that.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
It was just for for fun.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
You put us both here. This is all on you, Okay.
Speaker 4 (14:49):
Don't throw this back on me. You were trying to
sabotage my promotion. You know I didn't even want it.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Do you not see how belittling that is? The thing
I want more than anything in the world, being a Dean, and.
Speaker 5 (15:02):
You're virtually a locke for it.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
But you don't want it. You'll always get to be
the hero, the one that everyone adores, But you don't
see how hard that is to be around all the time.
Speaker 4 (15:13):
Then why not just divorce me?
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Because that's when you become the marital martyr? Mark? Oh,
I heard she divorced him because he was too good
for her. Do know how many women would be throwing
themselves at doctor Dean, nice guy with a broken heart,
freshly divorced, scorned by a shrewish wife. And that's just
how they'd talk about me. And if I divorced you,
I'd only be jeopardizing my own financial security. Just as
(15:36):
we're finally getting really comfortable.
Speaker 5 (15:38):
I don't see any crime here. If any of this
is true, these people should be in couple's therapy, not jail.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
Keep telling you that I think that what our esteemed
criminologists did was gross, but she doesn't have to answer
to the law, only to her family. They can both
go right now since we already arrested Mary Kay Campbell's killer.
This whole merit drama was just a distraction, compounding human error,
nothing more. If you need me to state it, I'll
(16:06):
say it for the record. There is no proof that
doctor Mark Sturgis was sleeping with a student. He does
not own a weapon, he had not gone to a
gun show, and it was just a sad coincidence that
the Campbell woman was wearing his braves hat, sitting at
his desk writing an email to him when she was shot.
(16:27):
Sometimes the hardest part of being a detective is sifting
through the red herrings. And doctor Mallory Sturgis, I think
what you did was awful, but it can't be too
mad because we never would have tripped over an eighteen
year old who bought a suppressor and a Sitemark Wraith
nightscope said he was going to go night hunting for
coyotes suppressor.
Speaker 4 (16:47):
Yeah, a silencer adds to accuracy as well as suppresses
the sound. This is why nobody recognized the shot that night.
It would just sound like a loud thud.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
His name is Bran Dantrey. By the way, you know him.
This retired cop got this kid to fill out a
form and then he held onto it CoP's intuition because
of how hinky Dantrey was acting. He lives on the
other side of the woods behind the college, about five
minutes from here. He'd been using that suppressor on his
rifle to shoot possums and raccoons in the woods and
(17:20):
then skin them in the moonlight, usually while they were
still alive. He has a box of pelts in his
dad's basement that he's been selling online. Coyotes and other
creatures would eat the carcasses that he left behind.
Speaker 7 (17:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (17:34):
I'd seen him around at night for years on his bicycle,
and I never came on campus his mom's dad. He
always he seemed a little lost. I had no idea
what he had in his backpack. On Sunday night, he
was on the prow and wondered whether he could pull
the trigger on a human being. So we did just
(17:54):
to see if he could do it. He had seen
the Campbell woman earlier that night. It's just that simple,
one shot, one killed, totally random. He has all the
characteristics of a future serial killer. I mean, we never
would have caught him this early if we hadn't been
led to those gun shows.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Which means I'm not arresting you for obstruction of justice,
doctor Sturgis, but you probably will have to testify at
as trial and the truth of all of this ugliness
will come out. That will be up to the prosecutors. Personally,
I think when the students learn that you made up
stories about Mark to throw suspicion on him out of jealousy,
you could lose your job and make him even more popular.
Speaker 4 (18:35):
I'm a little tired of hearing about all this CoP's
intuition stuff. Detective Brody. You told me a couple of
times that I give off a deceptive guilty vibe, and
now you know the truth.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Oh no, I don't know what you're being deceptive about,
but all stand by what I said. Just because I
may never know it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Speaker 5 (18:59):
So, m kay, Campbell was a random victim in the
wrong window. At the wrong time.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
More like a coincidence. He told us that he'd seen
her jogging around the campus earlier, and he liked how
her ponytail came out from the back of your Brave's hat.
The bouncing reminded him of a squirrel's tale. By coincidence,
she was in doctor Sturgi's old office at two thirty
in the morning when Dantry was on the prowl. What
(19:26):
made this kid so evil? I don't know, why, don't
we ask the criminologist? Born that way, full of anger,
brain damage, shaken baby, poor impulse control, a narcissistic sociopath
who feels entitled to decide who lives or dies. I
guess we'll find out at the trial. If there is one.
I feel lucky we caught him early.
Speaker 5 (19:47):
We hope.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
The FBI Behavioral Unit estimates about two thousand serial killers
are on the prowl for victims at any given time.
Speaker 6 (19:55):
That's about forty in every state statistically there are He
was bound to be one in the area. I'm probably two,
maybe one active. The other with the same psychological profile
whose dormant weob and not killing right now, could be
somebody on this very campus.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
He just hasn't been triggered yet.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Criminologists call this opportunity structures, crimes more likely to occur
when there's a combination of a possible victim accessible to predation,
a motivated offender, and a lack of competent guardians. I
won't ask whether he felt bad.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
Well, I did ask him that though.
Speaker 6 (20:31):
He said he was disappointed that he didn't feel any
different than if he'd just shot a raccouver. He's hoping
for a different kind of rush, but there wasn't one.
He thought he might have felt something closer to elation
if he had been able to skin her while she
was still breathing.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
But he was ungry.
Speaker 6 (20:51):
He said he was afraid of getting caught, so he
went inside and had some powsome jerky that he'd made.
He says this was his first human victy dumb bod.
People like him have a slippery grip on the truth.
We're not accepting that yet.
Speaker 4 (21:07):
That is so sick and Mal. You thought I was
like this kid.
Speaker 5 (21:14):
Mark I Detective Brody. Can you give Mark and Mal
this room for a few minutes.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Yeah, we're done here. I have to prepare for that
press conference we're going to put up some posters of
the five missing area women from the past few years
that we think Dantry might have known to see if
there's a connection, We're hoping the public can help. It's
going to be a long afternoon answer and crank calls, though,
I just know it. Let me grab my recorder. Fred,
(21:39):
It's been a pleasure, Chloe. I know I'll be seeing
you around the hallways. I'm sure to the two doctor
and doctor Sturgis's good luck.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
We'll be outside in a minute.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Everybody, I'm sorry.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
Do you hate me that much that you wanted me
to look like I'm some creepy rando kid in the neighborhood.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Originally I felt cheated on by all the attention you
were getting. I was jealous, and things just got crazy.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
You mean you got crazy? If that makes you feel
any better At this point, nothing will make me feel better.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 4 (22:20):
Look at me, Look at me now. Tell me, honestly,
was it you who made that call to campus security?
Never mind, I know the answer.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 4 (22:36):
You have no idea how hard I have tried to
be the perfect husband and perfect father. I hold in
a lot more than you realize. In the end, it
doesn't even matter. You cannot imagine the pressure I feel.
Sometimes I just can't let out. I need to get away.
(23:00):
I need to get away from you for a while.
I'll be staying up on box Lake.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Well what about me? Can I come?
Speaker 7 (23:08):
You?
Speaker 4 (23:09):
Hate the cabin and the box. No, I need to
blow off some steam alone.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Just do whatever you need to do to feel better
and then come back to me.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
Okay, do what I need to do to feel better.
Remember you said.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
That Ian Punnett's Vaudefield for the Frightened Use your Ears
(23:56):
to Fight Your Fears Series one, The Bottom of the Box.
Speaker 4 (24:02):
So wait, we went through six episodes to solve a
mystery with just some rando killer. I don't think so.
In fact, I wrote it so I know. So there's
more to this story, although we still don't have, I think,
an adequate answer about the meaning of the Bottom of
(24:25):
the Box. Along the way, we have explored, however, the
two different types of serial killers, if you will, that
is to say, the organized and the disorganized. Which one
did Mary Kay Campbell fall into? Well, I would think
she was a victim of a disorganized serial killer, somebody
(24:48):
that was just playing at it. They didn't have a system,
They weren't out trying to get back at somebody. They
were just mad at the world, playing something out, pulled
a trigger, killed a woman. And maybe there's more right,
I mean, they are trying to put up some posters
(25:09):
and find out some more details about missing women. But
I mean, it still doesn't really answer the question. And
if it's an organized serial killer that they're looking for,
maybe they just caught the guy or early. Sometimes there's
a little bit of a blend. Doctor Catherine Ramsland is
(25:32):
a criminologist. Back in twenty ten, we were talking about
Urine vander Slut, Remember that guy. He was in Aruba
and he claimed and then unclaimed and then insinuated that
he was responsible for the death of Natalie Holloway, a girl,
a high school girl from Alabama who had come to
(25:55):
party with some friends whose body has never been found.
You are in vander Slut. I said at one point
that he was willing to give the family information about
where her body actually was for money. And then later
on he's responsible for a rage killing in Peru of
(26:19):
a woman that he had hooked up with that he
said was also a victim of just an accident. We
talked to doctor Catherine Ramslin about this back then and
about your in vander Slut. What profile did he fit?
Speaker 8 (26:35):
This guy's deceptive, manipulative, he's always looking for a fact,
he's always looking for his own advantage. He's remorseless. The
chances are good. I mean, he hasn't been diagnosed. I
don't want to do that from the aarmchair, but you know,
he definitely has what you would think would be a
psychopath or certainly a narcissistic personality disorder at the very least.
(26:59):
But the psychopath is a manipulative, deceptive, remorseless person who
looks to his own advantage or her own advantage at
all times, and will play people constantly just for fun.
Speaker 9 (27:14):
So the how in the scale? How does that work?
Narcissistic personality is a case of somebody who does what
that leads up to a psychopathic personality.
Speaker 4 (27:28):
What are the degrees between the two?
Speaker 8 (27:30):
Well, you don't it. Man't look at it as the degrees.
It's two different and distinct but overlapping personality disorders. Whereas
with narcissistic personality, you're very much enclosed within your own
self concerns and very self indulgent, but you still have
room for remorse and for you know, being engaged with people.
(27:52):
In a way, the psychopath is a much more cold
blooded type of person.
Speaker 9 (27:57):
So they overlap in the sense that he is at
least like a narcissist, yes, but he it may be
worse than just narcissism, and that he really is in
the psychopathic.
Speaker 8 (28:10):
I think we're definitely looking at a guy who doesn't
mind swindling his friends to care what he needs, you know,
lying easily. He knows he's being watched, and yet he
doesn't mind cheating people, you know, picking up girlfriends, killing
a girl, having I guess he had espresso in the
(28:31):
room while he considered what he was going to do,
as if there wasn't a dead body lying right there.
I mean, that was part of what he had said
in his confession, So very very cold. And if she
had by accident, fallen or something, you know, why didn't
you tell someone?
Speaker 4 (28:47):
Why did he just leave right right.
Speaker 9 (28:51):
The case of Natalie Holloway, to go back to the
young girl high school senior.
Speaker 4 (28:58):
The story is it was I believe.
Speaker 9 (29:01):
It's been confirmed, is that when the Holloway family flew
to Aruba when they heard that Natalie had not gotten
on the plane. They immediately flew to Aruba to assist
in the search of their daughter. The police said, oh,
she's going to turn up. She's off doing drugs with
some guy. We've seen it a million times. They showed
(29:23):
no particular concern, They did not send out anybody, and
so the family took it upon themselves to investigate. They
you know, they started saying, they tracked it down. They said,
who is she last seen with, and they said, Oh,
it's this kid Oran, And so they went to where
he was and they asked people that knew him, and
the first thing the family said they were told is, oh, yeah,
(29:46):
Oran does that a lot. He's always looking for young girls.
He's always looking to take advantage of girls. And I thought, oh,
that's so interesting, because that seems like that would fit
the profile right away of a predator. If other people
right away are picking up that you're always on the prowl,
at least in some low level form, you're a predator.
Speaker 4 (30:07):
Would you not agree?
Speaker 8 (30:08):
Absolutely? And there is some evidence that he was skulking
around trying to find grows he could sell into prostitution
and things like that. So yeah, he's definitely a predator.
But we can we take the step to serial killer.
Not yet, it's at this point it's all alleged.
Speaker 9 (30:26):
Sure would you be would you be as would you
be interested in doing? Knowing what you know?
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Would you?
Speaker 9 (30:35):
Catherine Ramslan say it's there would be a profit in
going and tracking all of the different ports of call
that you're in. Vander Salute has been in over the
years to look to see whether there's another case that
fits this profile in other cities around the world.
Speaker 8 (30:51):
Yeah, I mean, from what we see in him, it's
unlikely that he's done this five years apart without any
other kind of activity in between. But the only problem
with that is the level of investigative skill and record
keeping you're going to find in these other countries might
not be to the level you would hope for. So
(31:13):
just because you go do that doesn't mean you're going
to find cases. But I still think it's certainly worth doing,
because I don't believe that with the attitude he has
and his mo and his sort of off handed feeling
that he's untouchable, that he's only done this twice in
five years, I don't think so.
Speaker 4 (31:33):
The level of the investigator has to be equal to
the level of the suspect. I hadn't thought of it
that way. How many offenders have gone undetected only to
offend again because their talent for deception was greater than
the talent of the investigators. Well, detectives like Brody in
(31:55):
the end are left with nothing but their suspicions, their intuition,
and rely on getting breaks to solve crimes. Bigger fish
swim free. For example, catching the killer in a random
shooting is no small accomplishment. But this big reveal was
(32:16):
hidden by an even bigger surprise, and that's what's truly
waiting for us at the bottom of the box in
the next episode. This episode of Vaudeville for the Frightened
featured the Wildcat Community Theater of the Air with Andrew
(32:39):
and Jen Smith, Gabrielle Warrender, Marjorie Punnett and Ed Weigel,
our announcer and friend. The theme for Vaudeville for the
Frightened was written by Andrew Clark and performed by Ryan
Winters and Pistol Beauty. Original music by Colby Van Camp,
engineered by Jacob Hummings, Colby Van Kemp and Mason Kamara.
(33:04):
Special thanks to Marjorie Punnett, Corny Cole, Lisa Lyon, Chris Boros,
Bill May, Tom dan Heiser and Julie Talbot. And thank
you Joe Brennan. This has been a fourth Down and
Ten Productions. SI
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.