June 4, 2025 • 50 mins
During one of the most delicate periods for international relations, the United States sent Bob Hope to China with the ultimate wingman. Together, the two icons would play an unexpected role in bridging a massive cultural divide.
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Very Special Thanks to our translator, Yixio Ren!
Hosted by Dana Schwartz, Zaron Burnett, and Jason English
Written by Dylan Heuer
Produced by Josh Fisher
Editing and Sound Design by Chris Childs
Mixing and Mastering by Baheed Frazier
Story Editor is Aaron Edwards
Additional Editing by Mary Dooe
Research and Fact-Checking by Dylan Heuer, Aaron Edwards, and Austin Thompson
Original Music by Elise McCoy
Show Logo by Lucy Quintanilla
Executive Producer is Jason English
You can email the show at veryspecialepisodes@gmail.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
On June sixteenth, nineteen seventy nine, a plane touched down
in Beijing carrying a group of Americans. This was kind
of a big deal at the time. Just three months earlier,
a US embassy had opened in mainland China, the first
since diplomatic relations between the countries had come to a
(00:30):
screeching halt in the nineteen forties. America and China were
trying to become cordial again. Maybe not besties, but you
know the kind of acquaintances who can spot each other
at the same party without finding some excuse to leave.
A lot was riding on this plane and the Americans
(00:52):
on it. After they landed, the group got their passports
stamped and a Chinese chauffeur drove them to their hotel.
Hell They settled in and got to see the sites
nearby Tianaman Square, the Forbidden City. So few Americans had
this kind of access to the heart of China. They
(01:13):
took it all in, but they noticed something felt off.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
From the moment we arrived there, we were under such
suspicion and surveillance.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
That's Bob, one of the Americans on the trip.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
After we were there for a week, we're in the
limo or Chinese limo they had assigned us.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Bob says one of his colleagues in the limo felt
that chilling sensation two that everywhere they went someone was
watching them.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Plead silver and he says, we have to be careful
what we say. And I said, what do you mean?
He said, I think this car is bugged. He's whispering,
you know. He says, be very careful, and anything important
will be outside when we talk, and not in the
car or in our rooms.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
It was uncomfortable, sure, but not entirely unexpected. They were Americans,
after all, in a country that was still under authoritarian
rule and had a long legacy as a violent police state.
But what made it all especially odd was that these
American visitors weren't esteemed diplomats. They weren't politicians or CIA operatives.
(02:31):
They didn't even work for the government. They were comedians.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
We, of course, are in the laughter business. It's pure
and simple. We find humor and things.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Bob's full name is Bob Mills. He was a TV
writer there with an American crew to film a comedy
special with that colleague of his who'd warned him about
surveillance in the Limo, and that colleague was the legendary
comedian Bob Hope. In the US, Bob Hope was a
(03:06):
household name. Over the course of his career. He starred
in almost three hundred TV specials, hosted the Oscars nineteen times,
and performed for thousands of American troops.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
Mister Bob Hope, I want to tell you, I hope
you all saved your ticket, Stubbs, because we're rewarding the
Oscars by number tonight.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
But in China he was unknown and filming a comedy
special where he'd have to integrate himself into the culture,
meet the locals, and share what he saw with Americans
back home under a famously secretive regime. Was no small task.
But he wasn't doing it alone because there was another
(03:54):
American traveling around China with our Bobs there Piast Resistance,
a cultural ambassador like no other. Height eight feet two inches,
Home address one twenty three and a half Sesame Street.
Speaker 5 (04:11):
Thankala, me Me, me me.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
That's right. At one of the most delicate times for
international relations, the United States sent Bob Hope to China
with the ultimate wingman, Big Bird, and the two would
play a surprisingly influential role in bridging a massive cultural divide.
(04:45):
Welcome to very special episodes and iHeart original podcast. I'm
your host Danish Schwartz. And this is Big Bird Goes
to China.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
Welcome back Danish Swartz. He's Aaron Burnett. I am Jason English.
I have to say I'm a former season pass holder
at Tesame Place, the theme park in Langhorn, Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Are you really?
Speaker 6 (05:10):
Oh yeah, really, it's lapsed. It's lapped.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
But for a time that was the most impressive thing
about me.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
This is embarrassing because I didn't even know that existed.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
Wow, we got to get the word out more because
sis Langhorn. It is not exactly Orlando or Anaheim. But
to be in the theme park hub in the northeast.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
What any one of these days?
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Could I give you a few Sesame Street facts that
only an insider like myself?
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Please?
Speaker 6 (05:37):
I love the insider information.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Okay, Oscar the Grouch famously green originally orange? Really it's
like the Muppet multiverse?
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Is he green because of all the goo and the trash?
Is that the whole thing?
Speaker 3 (05:51):
He started orange? Jim Henson decided after the first year
he should be green. They rode it into the show
that he went to some swamp and came back, so
he has a transformation.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
So he's canonically he's still orange. He's just orange underneath
green or swampy.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
Big Bird's friend snuffle up Aguess. We all know I
loved Snuffy my first name. What I guesses, uh, Edward
Barnaby pretty close, Aloysious, Aloysious, snuffle up AGAs.
Speaker 6 (06:26):
Alious love the name. I used to tell people that
was my name.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
Wow, Aloisious. I feel like I missed out. I didn't
get this before I named my baby. That should have
been on the list.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
That's a great one's classical name, good nickname. At Mental Floss,
we used to have a pop culture spelling bee at
our live events and snuffle Up, I guess used to
get a lot of people out.
Speaker 6 (06:47):
So, oh yeah, I don't think I got close.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
I don't think I could nail it at all. Spelling
was my worst thing in school s.
Speaker 6 (06:54):
And U F F l.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Full You be a gus?
Speaker 4 (07:01):
Is it?
Speaker 7 (07:02):
Snuffle up ugus? Yeah, there's a lump in there. Okay,
That's how I'm gonna remember right now.
Speaker 6 (07:07):
One more.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
I think we should do a whole episode about this story.
I got this on Snopes in nineteen ninety one, not
long after Jim Henson had died, A student convinced graduating
seniors at Pinkerton Academy in New Hampshire that they should
all write save Ernie on their hats. And the newspaper
took the photo and ran with it, and it became
a story that dissessinme workshop was going to kill off
(07:32):
Ernie to talk about the death of Jim Henson before
outraged talk radio calls. And so they had to put
out a statement say, we have no plans to kill you.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Never planned to kill Herdy.
Speaker 6 (07:43):
That's amazing.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
What a prank. Let me take you back to nineteen
forty nine, thirty years before Bob Hope goes to China
with his film crew, his writers, and his secret weapon.
After a bitter civil war, the Chinese Communist Party, led
by Mao Zedong took control of mainland China. The US
(08:09):
didn't love it. The Cold War was underway and the
spread of Communism was seen as a threat. The US
soon removed their embassy and had no ties with Mao's government.
International conflict raged on. There was the arms race, the
space race, the Red Scare, the Korean War, and the
(08:31):
Vietnam War. Through all this, relations between the US and
China were icy, but things started to thaw when Richard
Nixon came into office. Nixon wanted to drive a wedge
between China and the Soviets, so he basically slid into
(08:51):
China's DMS. In nineteen seventy two, he made his historic
trip to the country. Very important document, men's get signed,
very important hands get shaken, and a very important step
is taken toward diplomacy. It takes some time, but seven
years later, in nineteen seventy nine, the US reopens an
(09:15):
embassy on the mainland. Bob Hope sees an opportunity with
relations between the US and China grid official again. He
knows he has to go.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Why ratings, television ratings. The whole country is wondering China.
We know something about it, but not much so just
pure ratings. That's what he lived for.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
That's Bob Mills again, Hope's writer tasked with helping to
show Americans a piece of China and bring a slice
of American comedy to China. In turn, this was a
chance for a television goal with China.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Nobody knew what was going on there, ever, I mean,
it was so secretive, and we were the first to
show them up close what these things looked like, and
how the Chinese spoke, and what they sounded like, and
what they laughed at.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
This trip wasn't Hope's first stab at bringing the world
to American's TV screens. In nineteen fifty eight, he went
on a State Department sponsored trip to Moscow. He made
a special that one critic credited with penetrating the Iron Curtain.
He gave viewers glimpses of American troops at an air
(10:43):
base in Vietnam and on a remote island in the
Indian Ocean. Hope was once called America's most prized ambassador
of goodwill throughout the world. But for Hope to get
to China, he had to get letters of support from
two former presidents and a former Secretary of State. Nothing
(11:07):
like getting Henry Kissinger's blessing before you can go tell
some jokes. The situation was delicate, but in June of
nineteen seventy nine, Chinese officials crossed the t's and dotted
the eyes on Hope's contract within seventy two hours of
the trip, getting approved, Hope touched down and started work
(11:30):
on Bob Hope on the Road to China.
Speaker 5 (11:34):
Hey, this is it Peaking China amazing? Just ten years ago,
who would have reaped an American comedian would be standing
here in Tiana Men Square saying whatever he please and
photographing anything you please. This fast moving world, radical changes
can occur overnight. I guess that's what this trip is
all about, getting to know each other, talking and laughing
(11:55):
and singing and dancing together the way good friends should.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Hope plays the part of tour guide, a singing, dancing,
wise cracking American navigating a new place. He performs his
own musical number on the Great Wall, challenges some kids
to ping pong, and shows us some tai chi. It's charming,
but not all of it. Lands Critics pointed out how
(12:22):
it tended to rely on cliches of Chinese culture and
how it felt deeply American. For better and for worse,
every street corner was the setup for a potential bit.
Every historical site in unwitting stage.
Speaker 4 (12:43):
Our first stop is the Temple of Heaven, which was
built in fourteen twenty was used by the emperors as
an order on which to seek Heaven's blessings for events
to come. One event they never anticipated was the impairs
one day of a harmonious prayer, Who will bring the
blessings of disco to these beautiful surroundings? Peaches and Her.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Hope pulled out all the stops. He rolled out the
red carpet for celebrities like disco duo Peaches and Herb,
country star Crystal Gale, and ballet performer Mikhail Barishnikov, and
of course Big Bird.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Hope knew that he had to bring people who could
defy the language barrier, and that's why Big Burden was there.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Look, we still have this audience.
Speaker 8 (13:33):
Maybe I could do a show for him right now myself.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
Here I am with Big Bird, leaving the Peaking Hotel
for a strode on the main rag Cheang Road.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
By the time A. Hope made his trip to China,
Big Bird was already a fixture in US households. Sesame
Street had been on the air for a decade, and
it represented a radical shift in children programming. Big Bird
and his Muppet friends lived on a fictional block in
(14:05):
New York that took after working class neighborhoods like Harlem.
He was part of the Sesame Street Gang from day
one thanks to a puppeteer named Carol Spinney. Spinny was
Big Bird. He invented the character, giving Big Bird the
personality of a gregarious six year old kid, and he'd
(14:27):
perform as Big Bird for almost half a century.
Speaker 9 (14:31):
I just feel that I'm one of the luckiest birds
in the world.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
Now I'm an old bird myself.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
But am I thinking of retiring.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
I don't think I want to.
Speaker 9 (14:40):
As long as I can hold my head up this high,
I want to continue. Carol was just this very effusive friendly.
Of course, he was a great artist.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
That's Brian Mehal. He's a puppeteer who worked alongside Spinney
for a number of years. A hardcore Sesame fan, you
might know Meal as the lively orange and white sheep
dog Barkley.
Speaker 9 (15:07):
His only speaking voice was woo and woo. He had
to express everything the way a dog would, and Big
Bird were really good buddies like Barkley.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Big Bird is a body puppet, not a hand puppet.
To become Barkley, Meal would get on all fours with
his arms on stilts. To become Big Bird. Spinney would
step into orange pants and three toed slippers, then a
helper would hoist the puppet's body, covered in four thousand
(15:43):
yellow feathers over his head. Spinney's human head reached Big
Bird's chest, so to operate the bird head he had
to hold his right arm straight up and use his
hand to move Big Bird's mouth as he spoke, all
while keep his pinky finger pointed so it could maneuver
the puppet's eyelids. The best way to gauge his own
(16:06):
movement was by looking at a monitor inside the puppet.
It showed the director's view of the scene. Spinny would
read from a script pinned inside the costume. Being Big
Bird was an art, but it also might as well
have been an Olympic sport.
Speaker 9 (16:25):
Carol was incredible in that costume. I mean he'd rollerskate
in it. He did all sorts of things in that costume.
It was definite a good workout for his arm. He
always did a beautiful job for many, many, many years.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Any joy or wonder that Big Bird inspired through TV
screens was absolutely earned. He was a towering, warm, awe
inspiring presence, a puppet with the heart of a kid
and the movements of a trained professional. So just imagine
it you're a kid going about your day in Beijing.
(17:03):
You've never seen this character on TV. And then all
of a sudden, there he is, thousands of yellow feathers, expressive,
childlike inviting and walking down the street with a film
crew and a random white dude. Here's Bob Mills again.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Since the kids saw what this was, language went out
the window. It doesn't matter what the bird is called.
Or you look at Big Bird and kids are gonna
love that character.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
With his beak reaching far above any crowd, Big Bird
was easy to spot as Hope, Spinny and the rest
of the team filmed in popular locations across the city,
kids and their parents following along.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
They were just appear out of nowhere. The word would
spread and tnon Men Square. They had that big riot.
You know, it's a huge square. I mean it's like
eight football fields all connected together, and we almost fill
that thing up with kids because he's come out of
the woodwork, you know, to see what this Big Bird was.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Spinny got a kick out of these crowds. The Chinese
police not so much.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
You could see all kinds of guys in suits watching you.
A secret service everywhere the authorities are very aware of
control and where people go and how they move around
and stuff, and once something like that happens, they get
very nervous.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Spinny had agreed not to walk around in his costume
unless they were rolling cameras. Chinese authorities also kept tabs
on what Hope's team filmed. They ordered Hope to hand
over the reels of a performance at the Democra Wall,
a relatively new landmark where Chinese people could freely pin
(19:05):
up posters sharing their ideas and political beliefs. The wall
would stay up for about a year before the government
shut it down. Hope's bit in front of the wall
riffed on a man who was complaining about the city's
traffic and pollution, and Hope.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Says, boy, thin king sounds terrible. He says, Oh, I'm
I'm from Beking. I'm from Passaic, New Jersey. That was
the Joe right.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
It's not the most clever joke in the world, and
it's innocent enough, but Chinese authorities said the clip had
to go. When it was all said and done, Hope
and his team had filmed in China for a month
before packing up and heading back home. The special generated
(19:56):
a huge amount of hype before even airing. On July fifth,
nineteen seventy nine, a photo of Big Bird, Bob Hope
and a crowd in Beijing was splashed on the front
page of the New York Times, and on September sixteenth,
three months after touching down on that plane in Beijing,
(20:17):
Bob Hope on the Road to China aired on NBC.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
Our Table set with China.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
So let's all Hope's Journey to China may have ended,
but Big Birds was just beginning. Welcome On. Around the
time of Bob Hope's special China was entering a new
(20:46):
era of foreign policy. Mao Zedong's decades long rule ended
with his death in nineteen seventy six. New leadership took
up the reins and sought to jumpstart the country's economy,
encourage foreign trade, and open up society. Before nineteen seventy eight,
you could characterize television in China as pure state propaganda.
(21:11):
You had a few hours of government broadcasts in the evenings,
some images of Chairman Mao over the national anthem. The
occasional state sanctioned communist opera, but new laws passed in
seventy eight ended the Communist Party's monopoly over the media.
All of a sudden, TV stations could develop new programs
(21:34):
and appeal to broader audiences. More people at home were
watching dramas and love stories, but politicians still heavily censored
non state TV. The vast majority of people lived below
the poverty line and in rural areas where it's uncommon
to have a TV. Despite all this, there was something
(21:56):
pulling Carol Spinney back. When he got home to New York.
He had an idea Big Bird should return to China
and star in a second TV special, Now Where Have
You Been? Spinney's desire to go back to China was
pretty different from Hope's original mission. Spinney fell in love
(22:18):
with China and its people on his first trip, and
he wanted to feel that magic again. Big Bird seemed
like his best bet for booking a return flight, so
he pitched the idea to Sesame Street Brass, who ran
with it. It took three years, but in nineteen eighty two,
another flight with American entertainers landed in Beijing, and this
(22:43):
time Big Bird was calling the shots.
Speaker 9 (22:46):
I have a copy of the original pre shooting scripts.
It's Courier font and I think the draft is April
fourteenth nineteen eighty two.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
That's Brian Meal again. He's the puppeteer who played to
Big Bird's canine friend Berkley.
Speaker 9 (23:02):
I was all in just about anything related to muppets
at that point, so it was a great opportunity and
I just jumped at it.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Instead of starting in the streets of Beijing, this new
special begins in Big Bird's hometown, New York City. Alongside Berkley,
he visits Chinatown to see a scroll in a shop
keeper storefront with the drawing of a beautiful bird, the
Chinese Phoenix. It's a legendary bird known as the Empress
(23:32):
of the Southern Skies. Big Bird can't stop thinking about
the Phoenix, but the only way to track her down
is to follow the instructions on the scroll.
Speaker 8 (23:42):
And I guess that scroll is very old and valuable, right,
Yes it is. And there isn't much chance you'd lend it.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
To a bird, is there?
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Not much?
Speaker 8 (23:51):
Chants even a bird who promised to take extra good
care of it and not get it dirty or anything.
A bird who only wants to find the Phoenix bird
so that you can tell her that American birds think
that Chinese birds are just swell a Bird, who would
guard it with his very life, and whose mission to
find the Phoenix just might be the biggest step forward
(24:12):
in the friendship between China and America that the world already.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
It's pretty on the nose. Big Bird and Barkley pack
their bags, head to China and go on a sightseeing tour.
Eventually they end up at a school where they befriend Shufu,
a six year old girl played by U Yang Linzi,
who helps Big Bird and Barkley on their quest. Maybe
I could help you. Could I speak English? Well, then
(24:43):
you can help us cool from not on tier after school. Yes,
it is pretty adorable, but behind the scenes making this
new friendship between Big Bird, Barkley and Chofu look seamless
wasn't all so smooth.
Speaker 9 (25:01):
It was pretty stressful at times. You know, some days
are really.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Tough, Brian says. Their translators doubled as informants and tried
to control where and what they could film. The country
was so poor at the time that the food was
usually unspiced and totally bland. The cast and crew got
worn out and struggled to recharge. Carol Spinney carried a
(25:27):
suitcase around full of peanut butter and crackers to eat,
and said, one windy day, grains of sand and dust
from the Gobi desert got into the table.
Speaker 9 (25:38):
We lost an entire day of shooting.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Another time, Brian and Carol had to take a tiny
boat down a flooded river, all while in their Muppet costumes.
Brian had to stuff his costume with kid floaties.
Speaker 9 (25:54):
I knew that if I fell out of that boat
in the Barkley costume, I was going to sink like
a stone.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
All of this happened over the span of three weeks.
Meil talks about it like a war vet in the
trenches with his crew in arms.
Speaker 9 (26:11):
I think Carol and I, you know, we've been in
combat together, brother.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
But talking to him, you get the sense that there
was something really special at the heart of this. Meil,
Spinny and Uyang were a group of unlikely friends on
a journey to find something familiar. That feeling drove the
whole production. It was the feeling that motivated Spinny to
(26:37):
pitch it to begin with, and the experience had echoes
of Bob Hope's time with Big Bird in Beijing. Wherever
Big Bird went, people followed, they connected with him.
Speaker 9 (26:50):
We always had a huge group of people that just
saw what was going on and came and watched. They
just were laughing and having a great time. And there's
a universal message there. When kids meet muppets and they
see different species, different colors, different attitudes, they see this
(27:13):
huge range welcoming something that's completely different from themselves, and
that ability to embrace and enjoy those kind of differences.
That's probably the ultimate diplomacy of muppets.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Berkley, Big Bird, and Shufu eventually do find the Phoenix,
but when they stand in front of her, Big Bird
realizes he doesn't have so many questions for her anymore.
He's learned about China by seeing it himself, by meeting
a new friend. The Phoenix tells Big Bird that in fact,
she had planned it that way all along. In the
(27:51):
final scene, the trio walks along the Great Wall as
the camera pans out to show them as small specs
again against a breathtaking landscape. The last words before the
credits are from Chauffeu, I love you week. But in
(28:20):
a nineteen eighty three article in The Washington Post, Pulitzer
Prize winning film critic Tom Shales wrote.
Speaker 10 (28:28):
Ronald Reagan has never been to China, but Big Bird
has been there twice. By now, some of the Chinese
may think Big Bird as President of the United States,
or at least a semi official State Department emissary, a
muppet without portfolio.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
The special was celebrated for building a bridge across cultures,
from filming with a Chinese co star to collaborating with
a Chinese production crew and engaging local children. It won
the nineteen eighty three Emmy for Outstanding Children's Program. Across
the US, viewers got another glimpse of China in their
(29:05):
homes and in China, a dubbed version aired on the
National Broadcaster. It didn't reach as many kids as it
did in the US, but one still remembers it to
this day.
Speaker 11 (29:18):
Da yaha, what I mean, toumi a jung Shanghai.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
That's Zuming, he.
Speaker 12 (29:25):
Said, Hi everyone, my name is Chu Ming, and I
call from Shanghai, China today.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
And that's Yishiao Ren, our translator regular one.
Speaker 12 (29:37):
That time, when I watched the Baker in China, it
brought me an extraordinary, beautiful childhood memory.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Chu Ming says he saw the special in Shanghai when
he was about thirteen years old. He's almost fifty now
and he's lived in Shanghai his whole life. If you
ask him about how the city was then compared to now,
he'll point out little things. He says the streets were
much narrower, that people mostly biked instead of drove, that
(30:08):
there were markets to shop at, but not every block
was lined with stores like they are now. Life was simple.
One day after school, Chuming and his cousin turned on
the TV in his parents' living room, but instead of
the regular children's programming, everybody, this is the Great Wall
(30:29):
of China.
Speaker 12 (30:32):
I did not know that a bird could be this big,
and I thought it was real, Like I thought it
was a real bird, and we were talking like it
was so amazing.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
They were actually watching a rerun of Big Bird in China.
It wasn't dubbed in Chinese either, It was the original
English language version, and no yellow feathers on our main character.
Their TV was in black and white. Dragged his uncle
into the living room at one point to help translate
(31:04):
the English. But even in gray scale and in a
foreign language, Juman was hooked.
Speaker 12 (31:14):
And we saw it for the first time. All our
attention was really really drowned to The Big Bird. My
cousin and I we constantly argued about if The Big
Bird was for real or like someone was performing it.
In our impression, America was like a developed country with
(31:34):
high techniques, so we were even talking about if The
Big Bird was performed by robots. But I just could
not explain how it could be performed. How would a
human character perform this Big Bird?
Speaker 1 (31:52):
If Carol Spinney, the quote human character performing This Big
Bird had one goal, It was to connect with young
people in China through his character, the same way he
did with viewers in America. Young people like Schu Ming,
a kid who grew up in Shanghai who happened to
(32:12):
turn on the TV and see a new exciting character
in his family's living room. It was this cool domino effect.
Comedian goes to China for the ratings, big hearted puppeteer
goes back for the kids. But the dominoes don't stop there.
If Big Bird really wanted to make an impact, he'd
(32:35):
have to relocate Jim j.
Speaker 12 (32:41):
Yr Posa, Lanza ay Yeo, Wantza.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Kurna and at no Chinese I could yeah listen high
Na get me how good by Sesame Street has long
(33:18):
been the gold standard for children's programming. According to a
study by the American Economic Association, the program has had
a sizable impact on preparing kids for elementary school since
it was created in nineteen sixty nine. By the late
nineteen nineties, Sesame Street had expanded to twenty different countries Canada, Germany, Brazil,
(33:42):
the Philippines, the United Arab Emirates. This was the longest
street in the world, and it kept getting longer. An
American led Sesame Street special in China every few years
was fine, but it was time to level up. It
was time for China have a Sesame Street of its own.
Speaker 6 (34:04):
Hey hold an you shall ya ya.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Hi will kaisei BD of War by Yao ya ya wah.
I'm recognize that tune. Maybe you'll be a little more
familiar with the original.
Speaker 4 (34:22):
Rubber Ducky.
Speaker 6 (34:23):
You're the one you make bad time, lots of fun.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
It's rubber Ducky. The Chinese dubbed version you heard would
air on Jimmy Jay.
Speaker 11 (34:34):
Jimmy Jay Mean Sesame Street.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Jimmy Jay was a Chinese co production of Sesame Street
that ran from nineteen ninety eight to two thousand and one.
It was written and produced by a Chinese team, featured
Chinese actors, and was tailored to the lives of Chinese children.
Speaker 11 (34:54):
My name's Cooper Wright. I worked at Sesame Street for
about twenty five years so on China. I was the
executive producer in charge of the Chinese co production.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
When the groundwork for the series was first laid in
nineteen ninety four, some Chinese officials were worried that the
show would assert too strong an American influence.
Speaker 11 (35:18):
We were so concerned about cultural imperialism. That's something that
Sesame Workshop has, you know, going way away from the
very beginning, been concerned about with co productions.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
But the show had a champion on the inside that
the network Sesame Street was collaborating with in Shanghai, Yei Chow,
the director of the Children's department. He was convinced a
Chinese co production was a smart move, that it would
be good for the country.
Speaker 12 (35:50):
You wanted to use it for the Chinese children for
an educational purpose, and so it was very appealing to me.
Because of this.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
It took four years to develop the idea and get
through red tape, but a deal was struck between Shanghai TV,
Sesame Street, and the show's sponsor, General Electric, the hybrid
Chinese American leadership found a studio and set the show's
educational agenda. For example, between nineteen eighty and twenty sixteen,
(36:22):
the Chinese government imposed a policy that restricted most families
to having one child as a means of population control,
so the Jim and Jay team prioritized lessons like sharing
and social skills for only children. A team was hired
to work on handwritten scripts that got translated and faxed
(36:44):
back and forth between Shanghai and New York.
Speaker 3 (36:47):
For edits.
Speaker 12 (36:50):
Down, and we broke two fax machines throughout the production process.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
A lot of the show's material came from the arc
hives of American Sesame Street, dubbed in Chinese. Cooper says
a third of the show was made locally and was
totally original. The team invented new Muppet characters like a
blue furry pig named hhoo Zoo and Shoe Metzi, a
(37:19):
three year old monster with pigtails who takes after Almo.
Speaker 11 (37:23):
She's the same color red as Elmo. But they wanted
a strong female.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Character Yea, and there was space for a third Muppet
in the Chinese cast.
Speaker 12 (37:39):
The first one we thought about was Pandas because that
was the most popular figures in China.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
Jim and Jay's team ran focus groups with kids and
showed them photos to see who they liked. Pandas, Monkey Kings,
and another more institutional character in the mix, Big Bird.
Speaker 11 (37:59):
We weren't sure if that would think that was too American,
and we said, what do you want?
Speaker 1 (38:03):
The kid's response told a different story.
Speaker 11 (38:06):
They wanted Big Bird because they considered Big Bird to be,
as they called it, the best. They loved Big Bird.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
While other co productions had large avian characters, none had
their own Big Bird, and adding a new one to
Jimmy Jay would mean getting special permission from Sesame Street Brass.
But it worked out, and the last resident to move
onto China's Sesame Street would be an eight foot tall
(38:37):
yellow feathered friend named Daniell.
Speaker 12 (38:43):
The Big Bird. Daniell is actually the same age as them,
and Danielle is like very cute, very childlike. It's like
very relatable for children.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
Spinney couldn't be in two countries at once, though, the
team needed to find someone who could fill his large
orange three toed slippers.
Speaker 11 (39:05):
Carol Spinney was Big Bird and Kevin Klash who is Elmo?
They came over to China to audition to help them
audition those puppets, and that was incredible, and we auditioned
hundreds of people.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
About four hundred Chinese actors showed up to audition. Eventually
that number got whittled down and a smaller group of
actors tried to follow Spinney's movements, put their own spin
on them, and embody the essence of Big Bird in
front of the man who invented him.
Speaker 11 (39:40):
There had never been another Big Bird before, and he
hadn't done international casting, so he was really excited to
be in China. He loved being there. But he said,
well what do I do? And I said, well, you
have to You've got to tell them who Big Bird is.
You've got to explain Big Bird.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
When the auditions first started, the actors did some puppeteering
one oh one. They used their hands to mimic talking,
They put ping pong balls on their fingers to imitate eyes.
But as they got farther into the audition process, they
also had to try to capture something else, something that
(40:20):
went beyond hand movements and arm placements. Cooper remembers how
Spinny opened up to the group, sharing what he believed
made Big Bird Big Bird. There was an intense level
of specificity and care. While Spinny spoke, the room went silent.
(40:41):
He talked about Big Bird's sweetness and generosity, his soft
high voice, how he's naive but also curious and gentle,
how he moves slowly but doesn't lumber.
Speaker 11 (40:56):
I looked around. My jaw dropped. I looked around and
everyone else was just including Kevin. We were like mes Mauriza,
Oh wow, So I mean we all knew Big Bird.
Of course we know Big Bird, but we had never
heard Carol describing Big Bird. And it translated beautifully because
(41:17):
you could see the puppeteers understood it.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
One puppeteer nailed it. A twenty one year old man
who was working in Shanghai as a mechanic while going
to acting school at night.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
We nig.
Speaker 12 (41:32):
And I still remember Caro Spinny at that time. I
remember when he talked to me. He said, I really
like you because I knew that you were a mechanic.
I used to be a mechanic as well.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
That's right. The little boy who watched Big Bird in
China as a kid in Shanghai, Chuming when he first
showed up to audition with that group of four hundred actors.
Chuming didn't know that this was an audition for the
character he watched in black and white in his family
living room years before. It was just an open casting call.
(42:09):
He was an aspiring performer trying to get his face
and his name out there. But when he met Spinney
face to face and saw him doing the movement that
brought the character to life, he knew he wanted the job.
Speaker 12 (42:26):
I was really really really excited to see him, and
when he was performing, I remember thinking to myself that
I am going to be the big Bird. I must
be the big Bird. The last day they announced that
(42:47):
I got the role, I was in shock. And I
still remember because the translator at that time was a
famous female director from a famous show in China. And
remember she ran to me and she forgot to speak
Chinese with me because she was so excited, and she
(43:08):
just like throw at me a bunch of English words.
But she was crying, and I figured that I probably
got the role. It was in all a very very
unforgettable memory and experience for me.
Speaker 1 (43:23):
Ju Meng got fitted for his own yellow feathered costume
and worked on strengthening his arm. At last, he began
to play the role that changed his life trajectory and
defined his career.
Speaker 12 (43:39):
Just like Carol Spinney, I would love to perform Big
Bird for the rest of my life.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
Big Bird first touchdown in China at a tense time,
just months after the US embassy reopened in nineteen seventy nine,
after decades of isolation. Maybe things were so touchy that
the moment called for an ambassador, so harmless that nothing
could go wrong. But to reduce Big Bird to a
(44:10):
non threatening bundle of yellow feathers would be to underestimate him.
When he walked down the street, he drew crowds. When
he's saying with kids, they smiled, And when he showed
up on TV screens, he inspired awe. Big Bird had
the power to bring people together and he still does.
(44:33):
Just take a visit to his home at one twenty
three and a half Sesame Street, you'll see that two
friends don't have to be the same to get along.
Some friends are furry, others are feathered. Some are tall,
and some are tiny. Their colors span the rainbow. They
thrive in their differences and find common ground in community.
Speaker 11 (44:57):
It is about sharing something that we think is really
a wonderful invention and that highlights the best of America
at the same time, being generous and allowing another country
to take it and make it bears rather than shoving
it down their throat as an American thing. It is
(45:17):
a lot more about sharing than anything else.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
Cooper never expected that her work in China would lead
to the creation of another Big Bird, but when it did,
she also couldn't confine Dan Yao to live in Big
Bird's shadow. He was always going to find his own
light for the workshop.
Speaker 11 (45:38):
It does fulfill their mission. I'm not there now obviously,
but you know they're working in refugee camps now, they're
doing all kinds of work with in International Rescue Committee.
And before I left, we were working in Pakistan, we
were working in Afghanistan. That's not for monetary reward. That's
(45:58):
to expand the mission. But you know, when you say that,
you have to be careful because it's not pushing out
an American mission. It's more sharing with the world what
we all value, what everybody values, helping children reach their
highest potential.
Speaker 1 (46:18):
No, Hi, what's your band, y'all? This story is everything
I love about Sesame straight because it's it's curious, it's heartwarming,
and at the end of the day, it's just like
it warms your heart. I mean that's what heartwarming means.
Speaker 6 (46:41):
But also I agree with you, it's the whole sharing
of human values. It really does. I felt better after
listening to this episode. It did literally warm the heart.
Speaker 1 (46:48):
I read this episode and I was just like, people
aren't so different. We can connect this world.
Speaker 3 (46:55):
We need it now bring it back. Speaking of Saron,
did you do any casting if we wanted to redo
this one revisit?
Speaker 4 (47:02):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (47:02):
I did, actually, and this one had a lot of Bob's.
There was Bob Mills, the writer for Bob Hope. There
was Bob Hope. There was Bob Meal for Barkley. I
was just like so many Bobs. But okay, I got
it down to this. For Bob Hope, I thought you
could either do one of two directions. Either shrink down
Vince Vaughan because he's got the right energy, or you
go with Bill Murray, who's more size accurate.
Speaker 1 (47:22):
I had a pitch for Bob Hope, which all do
you Let's have a career resurgence for zach Alifanakis. Oh,
it's sort of a serious role because he know soon
as what he's capable of.
Speaker 7 (47:34):
I think he's got the range and he's got the
right energy. We also, once again he likes people the
way Bob Hope likes people.
Speaker 1 (47:40):
You can start of turn it on, but there's sort
of a darkness underneath it where you're like, what's going
on there?
Speaker 7 (47:44):
Exactly a little of aggression almost in his comedy. As
for Big Bird, obviously Carol Spinney is Big Bird, but
I thought, Okay, for this, we need someone who can
do it, and I turned to forgetting Sarah and Marshall's
puppet show master Jason Segal.
Speaker 6 (47:58):
He's got the bona fidees I mean, good one.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
Jason Siegel loves the Muppets famous They also.
Speaker 7 (48:04):
Exactly right, I mean like, how do we skip over
him for this role? So boom, he's got it. And
that's pretty much for the Bob Mills writer for Bob Hope.
I kept trying to think about this. I couldn't get
somebody who felt like the writer. I was like, I
don't know, man, you may have to play yourself. So
that's all I got for the casting. But I really
enjoyed this one because that all of my interests Bob Hope, Nixon, Chairman,
(48:24):
Mao Disco, and Big Bird.
Speaker 6 (48:26):
I mean like him as a grab bag.
Speaker 3 (48:28):
Nixon is a sneaks his way into most of our episodes.
Socity that guy's everywhere have about very special characters, Jason.
Speaker 1 (48:38):
Don't be ridiculous. There truly is only one very special
character in this episode, and it is Big Bird.
Speaker 2 (48:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:44):
It would be a disservice to anyone to try to
compare them to Big Bird.
Speaker 7 (48:49):
Totally, and the effort that it takes. I had no
idea that he was holding his hand up the whole time.
That blew me away strength to play Big Bird.
Speaker 1 (48:58):
I mean, that's a fun lie that they tell us
that someone is inside because obviously it's just Big Bird
doing it. But that's like a cute cover story.
Speaker 6 (49:07):
Yeah it is. Yeah, way to pull that one.
Speaker 4 (49:09):
I like that.
Speaker 6 (49:09):
Sesame Street Workshop.
Speaker 3 (49:10):
I'm going to end with a call to action here.
We've covered some good children's books and programming. We had
a Nancy Drew last year. We've got a Good Night
Moon episode coming up Sesame Street today. E t If
there's some beloved book or show or movie from your
childhood you want us to cover, shoot us an email
(49:33):
Very Special Episodes at gmail dot com. And you know
we're always looking for story ideas.
Speaker 6 (49:37):
Yeah, hit us up, our ears are open.
Speaker 3 (49:41):
Very Special Episodes is made by some very special people.
Today's episode was written by Dylan Hoyer. It's good to
have Dylan back in the mix. Last year she wrote
The joy Ride about the time Amelia Earhart and Eleanor
Roosevelt snuck out of the White House for an impromptu
flight and very special thanks to our translator is Shao Ren.
Couldn't have done without her. Our show is hosted by
(50:01):
Danias Schwartz, Saren Burnett, and Jason English. Our producer is
Josh Fisher. Story editor is Aaron Edwards. Editing and sound
designed by Chris Childs, Mixing and mastering by Beheath Fraser.
Additional editing by Mary Doo, Original music by Alice McCoy,
Show logo by Lucy Quintania. Our executive producer is Jason English.
(50:23):
Like I mentioned during our banter, if you ever want
to email the show, hit us up at Very Special
Episodes at gmail dot com. Very Special Episodes is a
production of iHeart Podcasts.
On June sixteenth, nineteen seventy nine, a plane touched down
in Beijing carrying a group of Americans. This was kind
of a big deal at the time. Just three months earlier,
a US embassy had opened in mainland China, the first
since diplomatic relations between the countries had come to a
(00:30):
screeching halt in the nineteen forties. America and China were
trying to become cordial again. Maybe not besties, but you
know the kind of acquaintances who can spot each other
at the same party without finding some excuse to leave.
A lot was riding on this plane and the Americans
(00:52):
on it. After they landed, the group got their passports
stamped and a Chinese chauffeur drove them to their hotel.
Hell They settled in and got to see the sites
nearby Tianaman Square, the Forbidden City. So few Americans had
this kind of access to the heart of China. They
(01:13):
took it all in, but they noticed something felt off.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
From the moment we arrived there, we were under such
suspicion and surveillance.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
That's Bob, one of the Americans on the trip.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
After we were there for a week, we're in the
limo or Chinese limo they had assigned us.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Bob says one of his colleagues in the limo felt
that chilling sensation two that everywhere they went someone was
watching them.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Plead silver and he says, we have to be careful
what we say. And I said, what do you mean?
He said, I think this car is bugged. He's whispering,
you know. He says, be very careful, and anything important
will be outside when we talk, and not in the
car or in our rooms.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
It was uncomfortable, sure, but not entirely unexpected. They were Americans,
after all, in a country that was still under authoritarian
rule and had a long legacy as a violent police state.
But what made it all especially odd was that these
American visitors weren't esteemed diplomats. They weren't politicians or CIA operatives.
(02:31):
They didn't even work for the government. They were comedians.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
We, of course, are in the laughter business. It's pure
and simple. We find humor and things.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Bob's full name is Bob Mills. He was a TV
writer there with an American crew to film a comedy
special with that colleague of his who'd warned him about
surveillance in the Limo, and that colleague was the legendary
comedian Bob Hope. In the US, Bob Hope was a
(03:06):
household name. Over the course of his career. He starred
in almost three hundred TV specials, hosted the Oscars nineteen times,
and performed for thousands of American troops.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker 4 (03:22):
Mister Bob Hope, I want to tell you, I hope
you all saved your ticket, Stubbs, because we're rewarding the
Oscars by number tonight.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
But in China he was unknown and filming a comedy
special where he'd have to integrate himself into the culture,
meet the locals, and share what he saw with Americans
back home under a famously secretive regime. Was no small task.
But he wasn't doing it alone because there was another
(03:54):
American traveling around China with our Bobs there Piast Resistance,
a cultural ambassador like no other. Height eight feet two inches,
Home address one twenty three and a half Sesame Street.
Speaker 5 (04:11):
Thankala, me Me, me me.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
That's right. At one of the most delicate times for
international relations, the United States sent Bob Hope to China
with the ultimate wingman, Big Bird, and the two would
play a surprisingly influential role in bridging a massive cultural divide.
(04:45):
Welcome to very special episodes and iHeart original podcast. I'm
your host Danish Schwartz. And this is Big Bird Goes
to China.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
Welcome back Danish Swartz. He's Aaron Burnett. I am Jason English.
I have to say I'm a former season pass holder
at Tesame Place, the theme park in Langhorn, Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Are you really?
Speaker 6 (05:10):
Oh yeah, really, it's lapsed. It's lapped.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
But for a time that was the most impressive thing
about me.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
This is embarrassing because I didn't even know that existed.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
Wow, we got to get the word out more because
sis Langhorn. It is not exactly Orlando or Anaheim. But
to be in the theme park hub in the northeast.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
What any one of these days?
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Could I give you a few Sesame Street facts that
only an insider like myself?
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Please?
Speaker 6 (05:37):
I love the insider information.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Okay, Oscar the Grouch famously green originally orange? Really it's
like the Muppet multiverse?
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Is he green because of all the goo and the trash?
Is that the whole thing?
Speaker 3 (05:51):
He started orange? Jim Henson decided after the first year
he should be green. They rode it into the show
that he went to some swamp and came back, so
he has a transformation.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
So he's canonically he's still orange. He's just orange underneath
green or swampy.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
Big Bird's friend snuffle up Aguess. We all know I
loved Snuffy my first name. What I guesses, uh, Edward
Barnaby pretty close, Aloysious, Aloysious, snuffle up AGAs.
Speaker 6 (06:26):
Alious love the name. I used to tell people that
was my name.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
Wow, Aloisious. I feel like I missed out. I didn't
get this before I named my baby. That should have
been on the list.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
That's a great one's classical name, good nickname. At Mental Floss,
we used to have a pop culture spelling bee at
our live events and snuffle Up, I guess used to
get a lot of people out.
Speaker 6 (06:47):
So, oh yeah, I don't think I got close.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
I don't think I could nail it at all. Spelling
was my worst thing in school s.
Speaker 6 (06:54):
And U F F l.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Full You be a gus?
Speaker 4 (07:01):
Is it?
Speaker 7 (07:02):
Snuffle up ugus? Yeah, there's a lump in there. Okay,
That's how I'm gonna remember right now.
Speaker 6 (07:07):
One more.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
I think we should do a whole episode about this story.
I got this on Snopes in nineteen ninety one, not
long after Jim Henson had died, A student convinced graduating
seniors at Pinkerton Academy in New Hampshire that they should
all write save Ernie on their hats. And the newspaper
took the photo and ran with it, and it became
a story that dissessinme workshop was going to kill off
(07:32):
Ernie to talk about the death of Jim Henson before
outraged talk radio calls. And so they had to put
out a statement say, we have no plans to kill you.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Never planned to kill Herdy.
Speaker 6 (07:43):
That's amazing.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
What a prank. Let me take you back to nineteen
forty nine, thirty years before Bob Hope goes to China
with his film crew, his writers, and his secret weapon.
After a bitter civil war, the Chinese Communist Party, led
by Mao Zedong took control of mainland China. The US
(08:09):
didn't love it. The Cold War was underway and the
spread of Communism was seen as a threat. The US
soon removed their embassy and had no ties with Mao's government.
International conflict raged on. There was the arms race, the
space race, the Red Scare, the Korean War, and the
(08:31):
Vietnam War. Through all this, relations between the US and
China were icy, but things started to thaw when Richard
Nixon came into office. Nixon wanted to drive a wedge
between China and the Soviets, so he basically slid into
(08:51):
China's DMS. In nineteen seventy two, he made his historic
trip to the country. Very important document, men's get signed,
very important hands get shaken, and a very important step
is taken toward diplomacy. It takes some time, but seven
years later, in nineteen seventy nine, the US reopens an
(09:15):
embassy on the mainland. Bob Hope sees an opportunity with
relations between the US and China grid official again. He
knows he has to go.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Why ratings, television ratings. The whole country is wondering China.
We know something about it, but not much so just
pure ratings. That's what he lived for.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
That's Bob Mills again, Hope's writer tasked with helping to
show Americans a piece of China and bring a slice
of American comedy to China. In turn, this was a
chance for a television goal with China.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Nobody knew what was going on there, ever, I mean,
it was so secretive, and we were the first to
show them up close what these things looked like, and
how the Chinese spoke, and what they sounded like, and
what they laughed at.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
This trip wasn't Hope's first stab at bringing the world
to American's TV screens. In nineteen fifty eight, he went
on a State Department sponsored trip to Moscow. He made
a special that one critic credited with penetrating the Iron Curtain.
He gave viewers glimpses of American troops at an air
(10:43):
base in Vietnam and on a remote island in the
Indian Ocean. Hope was once called America's most prized ambassador
of goodwill throughout the world. But for Hope to get
to China, he had to get letters of support from
two former presidents and a former Secretary of State. Nothing
(11:07):
like getting Henry Kissinger's blessing before you can go tell
some jokes. The situation was delicate, but in June of
nineteen seventy nine, Chinese officials crossed the t's and dotted
the eyes on Hope's contract within seventy two hours of
the trip, getting approved, Hope touched down and started work
(11:30):
on Bob Hope on the Road to China.
Speaker 5 (11:34):
Hey, this is it Peaking China amazing? Just ten years ago,
who would have reaped an American comedian would be standing
here in Tiana Men Square saying whatever he please and
photographing anything you please. This fast moving world, radical changes
can occur overnight. I guess that's what this trip is
all about, getting to know each other, talking and laughing
(11:55):
and singing and dancing together the way good friends should.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Hope plays the part of tour guide, a singing, dancing,
wise cracking American navigating a new place. He performs his
own musical number on the Great Wall, challenges some kids
to ping pong, and shows us some tai chi. It's charming,
but not all of it. Lands Critics pointed out how
(12:22):
it tended to rely on cliches of Chinese culture and
how it felt deeply American. For better and for worse,
every street corner was the setup for a potential bit.
Every historical site in unwitting stage.
Speaker 4 (12:43):
Our first stop is the Temple of Heaven, which was
built in fourteen twenty was used by the emperors as
an order on which to seek Heaven's blessings for events
to come. One event they never anticipated was the impairs
one day of a harmonious prayer, Who will bring the
blessings of disco to these beautiful surroundings? Peaches and Her.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Hope pulled out all the stops. He rolled out the
red carpet for celebrities like disco duo Peaches and Herb,
country star Crystal Gale, and ballet performer Mikhail Barishnikov, and
of course Big Bird.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Hope knew that he had to bring people who could
defy the language barrier, and that's why Big Burden was there.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Look, we still have this audience.
Speaker 8 (13:33):
Maybe I could do a show for him right now myself.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
Here I am with Big Bird, leaving the Peaking Hotel
for a strode on the main rag Cheang Road.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
By the time A. Hope made his trip to China,
Big Bird was already a fixture in US households. Sesame
Street had been on the air for a decade, and
it represented a radical shift in children programming. Big Bird
and his Muppet friends lived on a fictional block in
(14:05):
New York that took after working class neighborhoods like Harlem.
He was part of the Sesame Street Gang from day
one thanks to a puppeteer named Carol Spinney. Spinny was
Big Bird. He invented the character, giving Big Bird the
personality of a gregarious six year old kid, and he'd
(14:27):
perform as Big Bird for almost half a century.
Speaker 9 (14:31):
I just feel that I'm one of the luckiest birds
in the world.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
Now I'm an old bird myself.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
But am I thinking of retiring.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
I don't think I want to.
Speaker 9 (14:40):
As long as I can hold my head up this high,
I want to continue. Carol was just this very effusive friendly.
Of course, he was a great artist.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
That's Brian Mehal. He's a puppeteer who worked alongside Spinney
for a number of years. A hardcore Sesame fan, you
might know Meal as the lively orange and white sheep
dog Barkley.
Speaker 9 (15:07):
His only speaking voice was woo and woo. He had
to express everything the way a dog would, and Big
Bird were really good buddies like Barkley.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Big Bird is a body puppet, not a hand puppet.
To become Barkley, Meal would get on all fours with
his arms on stilts. To become Big Bird. Spinney would
step into orange pants and three toed slippers, then a
helper would hoist the puppet's body, covered in four thousand
(15:43):
yellow feathers over his head. Spinney's human head reached Big
Bird's chest, so to operate the bird head he had
to hold his right arm straight up and use his
hand to move Big Bird's mouth as he spoke, all
while keep his pinky finger pointed so it could maneuver
the puppet's eyelids. The best way to gauge his own
(16:06):
movement was by looking at a monitor inside the puppet.
It showed the director's view of the scene. Spinny would
read from a script pinned inside the costume. Being Big
Bird was an art, but it also might as well
have been an Olympic sport.
Speaker 9 (16:25):
Carol was incredible in that costume. I mean he'd rollerskate
in it. He did all sorts of things in that costume.
It was definite a good workout for his arm. He
always did a beautiful job for many, many, many years.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Any joy or wonder that Big Bird inspired through TV
screens was absolutely earned. He was a towering, warm, awe
inspiring presence, a puppet with the heart of a kid
and the movements of a trained professional. So just imagine
it you're a kid going about your day in Beijing.
(17:03):
You've never seen this character on TV. And then all
of a sudden, there he is, thousands of yellow feathers, expressive,
childlike inviting and walking down the street with a film
crew and a random white dude. Here's Bob Mills again.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Since the kids saw what this was, language went out
the window. It doesn't matter what the bird is called.
Or you look at Big Bird and kids are gonna
love that character.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
With his beak reaching far above any crowd, Big Bird
was easy to spot as Hope, Spinny and the rest
of the team filmed in popular locations across the city,
kids and their parents following along.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
They were just appear out of nowhere. The word would
spread and tnon Men Square. They had that big riot.
You know, it's a huge square. I mean it's like
eight football fields all connected together, and we almost fill
that thing up with kids because he's come out of
the woodwork, you know, to see what this Big Bird was.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Spinny got a kick out of these crowds. The Chinese
police not so much.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
You could see all kinds of guys in suits watching you.
A secret service everywhere the authorities are very aware of
control and where people go and how they move around
and stuff, and once something like that happens, they get
very nervous.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Spinny had agreed not to walk around in his costume
unless they were rolling cameras. Chinese authorities also kept tabs
on what Hope's team filmed. They ordered Hope to hand
over the reels of a performance at the Democra Wall,
a relatively new landmark where Chinese people could freely pin
(19:05):
up posters sharing their ideas and political beliefs. The wall
would stay up for about a year before the government
shut it down. Hope's bit in front of the wall
riffed on a man who was complaining about the city's
traffic and pollution, and Hope.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Says, boy, thin king sounds terrible. He says, Oh, I'm
I'm from Beking. I'm from Passaic, New Jersey. That was
the Joe right.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
It's not the most clever joke in the world, and
it's innocent enough, but Chinese authorities said the clip had
to go. When it was all said and done, Hope
and his team had filmed in China for a month
before packing up and heading back home. The special generated
(19:56):
a huge amount of hype before even airing. On July fifth,
nineteen seventy nine, a photo of Big Bird, Bob Hope
and a crowd in Beijing was splashed on the front
page of the New York Times, and on September sixteenth,
three months after touching down on that plane in Beijing,
(20:17):
Bob Hope on the Road to China aired on NBC.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
Our Table set with China.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
So let's all Hope's Journey to China may have ended,
but Big Birds was just beginning. Welcome On. Around the
time of Bob Hope's special China was entering a new
(20:46):
era of foreign policy. Mao Zedong's decades long rule ended
with his death in nineteen seventy six. New leadership took
up the reins and sought to jumpstart the country's economy,
encourage foreign trade, and open up society. Before nineteen seventy eight,
you could characterize television in China as pure state propaganda.
(21:11):
You had a few hours of government broadcasts in the evenings,
some images of Chairman Mao over the national anthem. The
occasional state sanctioned communist opera, but new laws passed in
seventy eight ended the Communist Party's monopoly over the media.
All of a sudden, TV stations could develop new programs
(21:34):
and appeal to broader audiences. More people at home were
watching dramas and love stories, but politicians still heavily censored
non state TV. The vast majority of people lived below
the poverty line and in rural areas where it's uncommon
to have a TV. Despite all this, there was something
(21:56):
pulling Carol Spinney back. When he got home to New York.
He had an idea Big Bird should return to China
and star in a second TV special, Now Where Have
You Been? Spinney's desire to go back to China was
pretty different from Hope's original mission. Spinney fell in love
(22:18):
with China and its people on his first trip, and
he wanted to feel that magic again. Big Bird seemed
like his best bet for booking a return flight, so
he pitched the idea to Sesame Street Brass, who ran
with it. It took three years, but in nineteen eighty two,
another flight with American entertainers landed in Beijing, and this
(22:43):
time Big Bird was calling the shots.
Speaker 9 (22:46):
I have a copy of the original pre shooting scripts.
It's Courier font and I think the draft is April
fourteenth nineteen eighty two.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
That's Brian Meal again. He's the puppeteer who played to
Big Bird's canine friend Berkley.
Speaker 9 (23:02):
I was all in just about anything related to muppets
at that point, so it was a great opportunity and
I just jumped at it.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Instead of starting in the streets of Beijing, this new
special begins in Big Bird's hometown, New York City. Alongside Berkley,
he visits Chinatown to see a scroll in a shop
keeper storefront with the drawing of a beautiful bird, the
Chinese Phoenix. It's a legendary bird known as the Empress
(23:32):
of the Southern Skies. Big Bird can't stop thinking about
the Phoenix, but the only way to track her down
is to follow the instructions on the scroll.
Speaker 8 (23:42):
And I guess that scroll is very old and valuable, right,
Yes it is. And there isn't much chance you'd lend it.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
To a bird, is there?
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Not much?
Speaker 8 (23:51):
Chants even a bird who promised to take extra good
care of it and not get it dirty or anything.
A bird who only wants to find the Phoenix bird
so that you can tell her that American birds think
that Chinese birds are just swell a Bird, who would
guard it with his very life, and whose mission to
find the Phoenix just might be the biggest step forward
(24:12):
in the friendship between China and America that the world already.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
It's pretty on the nose. Big Bird and Barkley pack
their bags, head to China and go on a sightseeing tour.
Eventually they end up at a school where they befriend Shufu,
a six year old girl played by U Yang Linzi,
who helps Big Bird and Barkley on their quest. Maybe
I could help you. Could I speak English? Well, then
(24:43):
you can help us cool from not on tier after school. Yes,
it is pretty adorable, but behind the scenes making this
new friendship between Big Bird, Barkley and Chofu look seamless
wasn't all so smooth.
Speaker 9 (25:01):
It was pretty stressful at times. You know, some days
are really.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Tough, Brian says. Their translators doubled as informants and tried
to control where and what they could film. The country
was so poor at the time that the food was
usually unspiced and totally bland. The cast and crew got
worn out and struggled to recharge. Carol Spinney carried a
(25:27):
suitcase around full of peanut butter and crackers to eat,
and said, one windy day, grains of sand and dust
from the Gobi desert got into the table.
Speaker 9 (25:38):
We lost an entire day of shooting.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Another time, Brian and Carol had to take a tiny
boat down a flooded river, all while in their Muppet costumes.
Brian had to stuff his costume with kid floaties.
Speaker 9 (25:54):
I knew that if I fell out of that boat
in the Barkley costume, I was going to sink like
a stone.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
All of this happened over the span of three weeks.
Meil talks about it like a war vet in the
trenches with his crew in arms.
Speaker 9 (26:11):
I think Carol and I, you know, we've been in
combat together, brother.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
But talking to him, you get the sense that there
was something really special at the heart of this. Meil,
Spinny and Uyang were a group of unlikely friends on
a journey to find something familiar. That feeling drove the
whole production. It was the feeling that motivated Spinny to
(26:37):
pitch it to begin with, and the experience had echoes
of Bob Hope's time with Big Bird in Beijing. Wherever
Big Bird went, people followed, they connected with him.
Speaker 9 (26:50):
We always had a huge group of people that just
saw what was going on and came and watched. They
just were laughing and having a great time. And there's
a universal message there. When kids meet muppets and they
see different species, different colors, different attitudes, they see this
(27:13):
huge range welcoming something that's completely different from themselves, and
that ability to embrace and enjoy those kind of differences.
That's probably the ultimate diplomacy of muppets.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Berkley, Big Bird, and Shufu eventually do find the Phoenix,
but when they stand in front of her, Big Bird
realizes he doesn't have so many questions for her anymore.
He's learned about China by seeing it himself, by meeting
a new friend. The Phoenix tells Big Bird that in fact,
she had planned it that way all along. In the
(27:51):
final scene, the trio walks along the Great Wall as
the camera pans out to show them as small specs
again against a breathtaking landscape. The last words before the
credits are from Chauffeu, I love you week. But in
(28:20):
a nineteen eighty three article in The Washington Post, Pulitzer
Prize winning film critic Tom Shales wrote.
Speaker 10 (28:28):
Ronald Reagan has never been to China, but Big Bird
has been there twice. By now, some of the Chinese
may think Big Bird as President of the United States,
or at least a semi official State Department emissary, a
muppet without portfolio.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
The special was celebrated for building a bridge across cultures,
from filming with a Chinese co star to collaborating with
a Chinese production crew and engaging local children. It won
the nineteen eighty three Emmy for Outstanding Children's Program. Across
the US, viewers got another glimpse of China in their
(29:05):
homes and in China, a dubbed version aired on the
National Broadcaster. It didn't reach as many kids as it
did in the US, but one still remembers it to
this day.
Speaker 11 (29:18):
Da yaha, what I mean, toumi a jung Shanghai.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
That's Zuming, he.
Speaker 12 (29:25):
Said, Hi everyone, my name is Chu Ming, and I
call from Shanghai, China today.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
And that's Yishiao Ren, our translator regular one.
Speaker 12 (29:37):
That time, when I watched the Baker in China, it
brought me an extraordinary, beautiful childhood memory.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Chu Ming says he saw the special in Shanghai when
he was about thirteen years old. He's almost fifty now
and he's lived in Shanghai his whole life. If you
ask him about how the city was then compared to now,
he'll point out little things. He says the streets were
much narrower, that people mostly biked instead of drove, that
(30:08):
there were markets to shop at, but not every block
was lined with stores like they are now. Life was simple.
One day after school, Chuming and his cousin turned on
the TV in his parents' living room, but instead of
the regular children's programming, everybody, this is the Great Wall
(30:29):
of China.
Speaker 12 (30:32):
I did not know that a bird could be this big,
and I thought it was real, Like I thought it
was a real bird, and we were talking like it
was so amazing.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
They were actually watching a rerun of Big Bird in China.
It wasn't dubbed in Chinese either, It was the original
English language version, and no yellow feathers on our main character.
Their TV was in black and white. Dragged his uncle
into the living room at one point to help translate
(31:04):
the English. But even in gray scale and in a
foreign language, Juman was hooked.
Speaker 12 (31:14):
And we saw it for the first time. All our
attention was really really drowned to The Big Bird. My
cousin and I we constantly argued about if The Big
Bird was for real or like someone was performing it.
In our impression, America was like a developed country with
(31:34):
high techniques, so we were even talking about if The
Big Bird was performed by robots. But I just could
not explain how it could be performed. How would a
human character perform this Big Bird?
Speaker 1 (31:52):
If Carol Spinney, the quote human character performing This Big
Bird had one goal, It was to connect with young
people in China through his character, the same way he
did with viewers in America. Young people like Schu Ming,
a kid who grew up in Shanghai who happened to
(32:12):
turn on the TV and see a new exciting character
in his family's living room. It was this cool domino effect.
Comedian goes to China for the ratings, big hearted puppeteer
goes back for the kids. But the dominoes don't stop there.
If Big Bird really wanted to make an impact, he'd
(32:35):
have to relocate Jim j.
Speaker 12 (32:41):
Yr Posa, Lanza ay Yeo, Wantza.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Kurna and at no Chinese I could yeah listen high
Na get me how good by Sesame Street has long
(33:18):
been the gold standard for children's programming. According to a
study by the American Economic Association, the program has had
a sizable impact on preparing kids for elementary school since
it was created in nineteen sixty nine. By the late
nineteen nineties, Sesame Street had expanded to twenty different countries Canada, Germany, Brazil,
(33:42):
the Philippines, the United Arab Emirates. This was the longest
street in the world, and it kept getting longer. An
American led Sesame Street special in China every few years
was fine, but it was time to level up. It
was time for China have a Sesame Street of its own.
Speaker 6 (34:04):
Hey hold an you shall ya ya.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Hi will kaisei BD of War by Yao ya ya wah.
I'm recognize that tune. Maybe you'll be a little more
familiar with the original.
Speaker 4 (34:22):
Rubber Ducky.
Speaker 6 (34:23):
You're the one you make bad time, lots of fun.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
It's rubber Ducky. The Chinese dubbed version you heard would
air on Jimmy Jay.
Speaker 11 (34:34):
Jimmy Jay Mean Sesame Street.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Jimmy Jay was a Chinese co production of Sesame Street
that ran from nineteen ninety eight to two thousand and one.
It was written and produced by a Chinese team, featured
Chinese actors, and was tailored to the lives of Chinese children.
Speaker 11 (34:54):
My name's Cooper Wright. I worked at Sesame Street for
about twenty five years so on China. I was the
executive producer in charge of the Chinese co production.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
When the groundwork for the series was first laid in
nineteen ninety four, some Chinese officials were worried that the
show would assert too strong an American influence.
Speaker 11 (35:18):
We were so concerned about cultural imperialism. That's something that
Sesame Workshop has, you know, going way away from the
very beginning, been concerned about with co productions.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
But the show had a champion on the inside that
the network Sesame Street was collaborating with in Shanghai, Yei Chow,
the director of the Children's department. He was convinced a
Chinese co production was a smart move, that it would
be good for the country.
Speaker 12 (35:50):
You wanted to use it for the Chinese children for
an educational purpose, and so it was very appealing to me.
Because of this.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
It took four years to develop the idea and get
through red tape, but a deal was struck between Shanghai TV,
Sesame Street, and the show's sponsor, General Electric, the hybrid
Chinese American leadership found a studio and set the show's
educational agenda. For example, between nineteen eighty and twenty sixteen,
(36:22):
the Chinese government imposed a policy that restricted most families
to having one child as a means of population control,
so the Jim and Jay team prioritized lessons like sharing
and social skills for only children. A team was hired
to work on handwritten scripts that got translated and faxed
(36:44):
back and forth between Shanghai and New York.
Speaker 3 (36:47):
For edits.
Speaker 12 (36:50):
Down, and we broke two fax machines throughout the production process.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
A lot of the show's material came from the arc
hives of American Sesame Street, dubbed in Chinese. Cooper says
a third of the show was made locally and was
totally original. The team invented new Muppet characters like a
blue furry pig named hhoo Zoo and Shoe Metzi, a
(37:19):
three year old monster with pigtails who takes after Almo.
Speaker 11 (37:23):
She's the same color red as Elmo. But they wanted
a strong female.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Character Yea, and there was space for a third Muppet
in the Chinese cast.
Speaker 12 (37:39):
The first one we thought about was Pandas because that
was the most popular figures in China.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
Jim and Jay's team ran focus groups with kids and
showed them photos to see who they liked. Pandas, Monkey Kings,
and another more institutional character in the mix, Big Bird.
Speaker 11 (37:59):
We weren't sure if that would think that was too American,
and we said, what do you want?
Speaker 1 (38:03):
The kid's response told a different story.
Speaker 11 (38:06):
They wanted Big Bird because they considered Big Bird to be,
as they called it, the best. They loved Big Bird.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
While other co productions had large avian characters, none had
their own Big Bird, and adding a new one to
Jimmy Jay would mean getting special permission from Sesame Street Brass.
But it worked out, and the last resident to move
onto China's Sesame Street would be an eight foot tall
(38:37):
yellow feathered friend named Daniell.
Speaker 12 (38:43):
The Big Bird. Daniell is actually the same age as them,
and Danielle is like very cute, very childlike. It's like
very relatable for children.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
Spinney couldn't be in two countries at once, though, the
team needed to find someone who could fill his large
orange three toed slippers.
Speaker 11 (39:05):
Carol Spinney was Big Bird and Kevin Klash who is Elmo?
They came over to China to audition to help them
audition those puppets, and that was incredible, and we auditioned
hundreds of people.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
About four hundred Chinese actors showed up to audition. Eventually
that number got whittled down and a smaller group of
actors tried to follow Spinney's movements, put their own spin
on them, and embody the essence of Big Bird in
front of the man who invented him.
Speaker 11 (39:40):
There had never been another Big Bird before, and he
hadn't done international casting, so he was really excited to
be in China. He loved being there. But he said,
well what do I do? And I said, well, you
have to You've got to tell them who Big Bird is.
You've got to explain Big Bird.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
When the auditions first started, the actors did some puppeteering
one oh one. They used their hands to mimic talking,
They put ping pong balls on their fingers to imitate eyes.
But as they got farther into the audition process, they
also had to try to capture something else, something that
(40:20):
went beyond hand movements and arm placements. Cooper remembers how
Spinny opened up to the group, sharing what he believed
made Big Bird Big Bird. There was an intense level
of specificity and care. While Spinny spoke, the room went silent.
(40:41):
He talked about Big Bird's sweetness and generosity, his soft
high voice, how he's naive but also curious and gentle,
how he moves slowly but doesn't lumber.
Speaker 11 (40:56):
I looked around. My jaw dropped. I looked around and
everyone else was just including Kevin. We were like mes Mauriza,
Oh wow, So I mean we all knew Big Bird.
Of course we know Big Bird, but we had never
heard Carol describing Big Bird. And it translated beautifully because
(41:17):
you could see the puppeteers understood it.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
One puppeteer nailed it. A twenty one year old man
who was working in Shanghai as a mechanic while going
to acting school at night.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
We nig.
Speaker 12 (41:32):
And I still remember Caro Spinny at that time. I
remember when he talked to me. He said, I really
like you because I knew that you were a mechanic.
I used to be a mechanic as well.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
That's right. The little boy who watched Big Bird in
China as a kid in Shanghai, Chuming when he first
showed up to audition with that group of four hundred actors.
Chuming didn't know that this was an audition for the
character he watched in black and white in his family
living room years before. It was just an open casting call.
(42:09):
He was an aspiring performer trying to get his face
and his name out there. But when he met Spinney
face to face and saw him doing the movement that
brought the character to life, he knew he wanted the job.
Speaker 12 (42:26):
I was really really really excited to see him, and
when he was performing, I remember thinking to myself that
I am going to be the big Bird. I must
be the big Bird. The last day they announced that
(42:47):
I got the role, I was in shock. And I
still remember because the translator at that time was a
famous female director from a famous show in China. And
remember she ran to me and she forgot to speak
Chinese with me because she was so excited, and she
(43:08):
just like throw at me a bunch of English words.
But she was crying, and I figured that I probably
got the role. It was in all a very very
unforgettable memory and experience for me.
Speaker 1 (43:23):
Ju Meng got fitted for his own yellow feathered costume
and worked on strengthening his arm. At last, he began
to play the role that changed his life trajectory and
defined his career.
Speaker 12 (43:39):
Just like Carol Spinney, I would love to perform Big
Bird for the rest of my life.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
Big Bird first touchdown in China at a tense time,
just months after the US embassy reopened in nineteen seventy nine,
after decades of isolation. Maybe things were so touchy that
the moment called for an ambassador, so harmless that nothing
could go wrong. But to reduce Big Bird to a
(44:10):
non threatening bundle of yellow feathers would be to underestimate him.
When he walked down the street, he drew crowds. When
he's saying with kids, they smiled, And when he showed
up on TV screens, he inspired awe. Big Bird had
the power to bring people together and he still does.
(44:33):
Just take a visit to his home at one twenty
three and a half Sesame Street, you'll see that two
friends don't have to be the same to get along.
Some friends are furry, others are feathered. Some are tall,
and some are tiny. Their colors span the rainbow. They
thrive in their differences and find common ground in community.
Speaker 11 (44:57):
It is about sharing something that we think is really
a wonderful invention and that highlights the best of America
at the same time, being generous and allowing another country
to take it and make it bears rather than shoving
it down their throat as an American thing. It is
(45:17):
a lot more about sharing than anything else.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
Cooper never expected that her work in China would lead
to the creation of another Big Bird, but when it did,
she also couldn't confine Dan Yao to live in Big
Bird's shadow. He was always going to find his own
light for the workshop.
Speaker 11 (45:38):
It does fulfill their mission. I'm not there now obviously,
but you know they're working in refugee camps now, they're
doing all kinds of work with in International Rescue Committee.
And before I left, we were working in Pakistan, we
were working in Afghanistan. That's not for monetary reward. That's
(45:58):
to expand the mission. But you know, when you say that,
you have to be careful because it's not pushing out
an American mission. It's more sharing with the world what
we all value, what everybody values, helping children reach their
highest potential.
Speaker 1 (46:18):
No, Hi, what's your band, y'all? This story is everything
I love about Sesame straight because it's it's curious, it's heartwarming,
and at the end of the day, it's just like
it warms your heart. I mean that's what heartwarming means.
Speaker 6 (46:41):
But also I agree with you, it's the whole sharing
of human values. It really does. I felt better after
listening to this episode. It did literally warm the heart.
Speaker 1 (46:48):
I read this episode and I was just like, people
aren't so different. We can connect this world.
Speaker 3 (46:55):
We need it now bring it back. Speaking of Saron,
did you do any casting if we wanted to redo
this one revisit?
Speaker 4 (47:02):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (47:02):
I did, actually, and this one had a lot of Bob's.
There was Bob Mills, the writer for Bob Hope. There
was Bob Hope. There was Bob Meal for Barkley. I
was just like so many Bobs. But okay, I got
it down to this. For Bob Hope, I thought you
could either do one of two directions. Either shrink down
Vince Vaughan because he's got the right energy, or you
go with Bill Murray, who's more size accurate.
Speaker 1 (47:22):
I had a pitch for Bob Hope, which all do
you Let's have a career resurgence for zach Alifanakis. Oh,
it's sort of a serious role because he know soon
as what he's capable of.
Speaker 7 (47:34):
I think he's got the range and he's got the
right energy. We also, once again he likes people the
way Bob Hope likes people.
Speaker 1 (47:40):
You can start of turn it on, but there's sort
of a darkness underneath it where you're like, what's going
on there?
Speaker 7 (47:44):
Exactly a little of aggression almost in his comedy. As
for Big Bird, obviously Carol Spinney is Big Bird, but
I thought, Okay, for this, we need someone who can
do it, and I turned to forgetting Sarah and Marshall's
puppet show master Jason Segal.
Speaker 6 (47:58):
He's got the bona fidees I mean, good one.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
Jason Siegel loves the Muppets famous They also.
Speaker 7 (48:04):
Exactly right, I mean like, how do we skip over
him for this role? So boom, he's got it. And
that's pretty much for the Bob Mills writer for Bob Hope.
I kept trying to think about this. I couldn't get
somebody who felt like the writer. I was like, I
don't know, man, you may have to play yourself. So
that's all I got for the casting. But I really
enjoyed this one because that all of my interests Bob Hope, Nixon, Chairman,
(48:24):
Mao Disco, and Big Bird.
Speaker 6 (48:26):
I mean like him as a grab bag.
Speaker 3 (48:28):
Nixon is a sneaks his way into most of our episodes.
Socity that guy's everywhere have about very special characters, Jason.
Speaker 1 (48:38):
Don't be ridiculous. There truly is only one very special
character in this episode, and it is Big Bird.
Speaker 2 (48:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:44):
It would be a disservice to anyone to try to
compare them to Big Bird.
Speaker 7 (48:49):
Totally, and the effort that it takes. I had no
idea that he was holding his hand up the whole time.
That blew me away strength to play Big Bird.
Speaker 1 (48:58):
I mean, that's a fun lie that they tell us
that someone is inside because obviously it's just Big Bird
doing it. But that's like a cute cover story.
Speaker 6 (49:07):
Yeah it is. Yeah, way to pull that one.
Speaker 4 (49:09):
I like that.
Speaker 6 (49:09):
Sesame Street Workshop.
Speaker 3 (49:10):
I'm going to end with a call to action here.
We've covered some good children's books and programming. We had
a Nancy Drew last year. We've got a Good Night
Moon episode coming up Sesame Street today. E t If
there's some beloved book or show or movie from your
childhood you want us to cover, shoot us an email
(49:33):
Very Special Episodes at gmail dot com. And you know
we're always looking for story ideas.
Speaker 6 (49:37):
Yeah, hit us up, our ears are open.
Speaker 3 (49:41):
Very Special Episodes is made by some very special people.
Today's episode was written by Dylan Hoyer. It's good to
have Dylan back in the mix. Last year she wrote
The joy Ride about the time Amelia Earhart and Eleanor
Roosevelt snuck out of the White House for an impromptu
flight and very special thanks to our translator is Shao Ren.
Couldn't have done without her. Our show is hosted by
(50:01):
Danias Schwartz, Saren Burnett, and Jason English. Our producer is
Josh Fisher. Story editor is Aaron Edwards. Editing and sound
designed by Chris Childs, Mixing and mastering by Beheath Fraser.
Additional editing by Mary Doo, Original music by Alice McCoy,
Show logo by Lucy Quintania. Our executive producer is Jason English.
(50:23):
Like I mentioned during our banter, if you ever want
to email the show, hit us up at Very Special
Episodes at gmail dot com. Very Special Episodes is a
production of iHeart Podcasts.
Hosts And Creators
Zaron Burnett
Dana Schwartz
Jason English
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