Episode 16: Nat Butler, NBA Photographer

Chris is joined by legendary NBA photographer Nat Butler to discuss his iconic works with basketball greats such as Bill Russell and Larry Bird. They also talk about missed opportunities, what it’s like to shoot NBA games, and tips for everyday people to take good pictures.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hey, what's going on. It's Chris Krino. This is the
voice of the Nets podcast. I have a lot in
common with NBA photographer Nat Butler. Were obviously are friends,
and we we get along really well and we could
have long conversations. But you know, as a play by
play announcer, you have to be ready for what happens

(00:34):
on the floor. You have to be prepared for any
situation so that you can capture the moment with your words.
I'm trying to put a picture in your head that
is literally taking that picture, capturing that moment for you
and we all, both of us have to be focused

(00:55):
on the play at hand and put ourselves in the
best position to capture that moment. His is where a photograph.
Mine is with words. We know the old statement, right,
a picture is worth a thousand words. Nat Butler has
been photographing NBA game since n Chances are if there's

(01:19):
a great photograph of an NBA player or a game,
it was taken by Nathaniel Butler. As a companion piece
to this. Follow him on Instagram and Twitter at Natalie
Photo n A T. L Y Photo, and you'll be
able to see a lot of the stuff that he
puts up there. But again, if you follow the NBA

(01:40):
all the great photographs, it's probably a net boler. So
we'll get into his favorite photographs, the stories behind them,
the personalities that he has covered over the year, how
you become a fly on the wall, how you gain trust,
and then technically how you take the photos. Where do
you put yourself? Is there a photo that he regrets
not being able to get. He'll cover all that, and

(02:02):
then we'll do the Jim Balbano thing to right at
the end about what makes your laugh, cry, think, and
and stay tuned afterwards after the interview, I'll give you
a couple of a couple of things about what I'm
watching listening to that relate two photographs. All right, that
said on the Voice of the NATS. Here is the
great Nap Butler. All right, Nat Butler. As a jumping

(02:28):
off point, could you give me, let's say, your five
favorite photographs of all time that you've taken NBA photographs.
You may have photographs of your children and things like
that that are that are dear to you, but maybe NBA,
we can't forget the dogs. The dog the dogs of course, Um,
that is a way of jumping off the cliff. That's

(02:48):
a tough one. What happens is something is my favorite
for a period of time and then I want more.
I want something else, something better, something different. But without
offending anyone or off, we'll start h John Starks dunk
has always been a favorite. I grew up a Knicks fan. Um,

(03:08):
that's him dunking over three Chicago Bulls in a playoff game, right.
Bill Russell with the rings would be on the list. Actually,
another one on that list that is a favorite of
mine is the Draws Petrovic, the old with his A
lot of the younger yours are not familiar with that,

(03:29):
but that that for a lot of different reasons, and
I have to uh one off the court favorite Lebron
James in his high school locker room at St. Vincent, St. Mary.
He's sitting in his in front of his old high

(03:50):
school locker on the bench with the m v P
trophy prior to going out to receive his first m
v P. Was just thing that was a crazy, you know,
a moment, a crazy story behind that. So what is
that that's for? Yeah, they give me one more if
you got one? Oh Patrick Ewing when they Nicks finally

(04:14):
made the finals, him jumping up on the table, arms
up um with the iconic garden ceiling in the in
the background. That's today's top five. That's the top five. Well,
the thing is, I could see that there's so much
that goes into one photo and their stories behind everyone,
and that's why I wanted to just sort of have

(04:34):
a jumping off point where we have some reference here
because you just mentioned, you know, Lebron m VP in
high school. He said, it's a great story behind it.
Just amazing to me that you're in that room with him.
What was the background behind getting that photograph? Well, typically
the guys would get the you know, the end of
the season, like either right before playoffs or early round playoffs.

(04:56):
They announced m v P in those days, and typically
they would do it pre game or the day before,
have a little press conference and then like pregame at
a Calv's game. You know, at that time, it was
Commissioner Stern Lebron James m v P, you know, in
front of the and he's in high school at this time. No, no,
it was his first, it was his first verse first.

(05:18):
So that's the typical scenario would be Commissioner Stern presenting
their trophy pregame at the NBA Arena, and Lebron wanted
to have the presentation at his high school in Akron.
There was some pushback, you know, why are we doing this.
It's a little more complicated, and the league agreed to

(05:39):
do it and we got there early and literally it
was just an unbelievable experience with following Lebron around that morning,
he goes back into St. Vincent St. Mary. He's saying
hello to the custodians, the teachers, he knew everyone by name.
I he was only i want to say, four years

(06:03):
removed from being a senior in high school. It's crazy.
And the kids what they it was a surprise to
the school kids. They were told they were having an assembly.
Remember when we were all in high school, we would
have an assembly. What's happening? Well, they gathered in the
gym and Lebron walked out, you know, and it was
the coolest thing because he gave this crazy, impassioned speech

(06:29):
about you know and again I'm bad with my days.
Either four or five years, I was sitting right where
you were. I'm in high school, didn't know what I
was doing. I love basketball and now I'm m v
P of the NBA. Like it was just a crazy experience.
And then we went into the lock his high school
locker room and he had his signature on the wall,

(06:51):
his his starting five teammate. The locker room hadn't changed,
the old high school locker room. And he's sitting on
the on the bench with the m V trophy right
next to him, just kind of soaking it all in
that you know, four years ago, five year this is
where this is where I was getting changed to go
out on the court and play a game. Now I'm

(07:12):
m v P of the n b A And it
was just just, you know, I don't know if I'm
doing a good job of describing the like the emotional
component of how powerful that really was. And you're a
fly on the wall. I mean you're just sort of
you're you're in the room at the moment, are you

(07:33):
Are you understanding that moment or you just so busy
trying to get the right photo. You know, it's a
great question. When I'm a I'm a guy that gets
emotional on on a TV commercial, that touches and pulls
the court. So while he was giving his speech, actually
I was sort of tearing up a little. I hold

(07:55):
the camera up to hide because I have a job
to do. During that speech that I said was so powerful,
that was my emotion. Then would were in the back,
you know, talking. He's talking to his business partners Maverick,
Carter and Randy and those were guys that played on
his high school team with him. They were like, remember

(08:17):
this happened, and then we did, and their signatures were
up on the wall at that point. It's just really
like being a fly on the wall and and and
soaking it in and documenting it for historical archive. Is
there an approach that you have to get NBA players,
your your subjects that you're shooting to get them comfortable

(08:41):
with you? I know? I mean you you have a
career that stands back to so you've got a lot
of equity built in over the years. And I just
know personally knowing you, you're just the kind of guy
that that everybody just likes to see. I mean, people
light up when they see you. It's a you have
a you have a great rapport with people. I would have.
Iagine that's part of getting the shot is having people

(09:03):
be comfortable with you that they don't even really realize
that you're around taking their photos, right. I do pride
myself on being, you know, the fly on the wall.
Things are different now with some of the younger players.
Everyone is accustomed to people having camera's phones recording. That
is a different, you know, a totally different world now

(09:26):
in that regard. But you know, going back, there's there's
a trust factor. And I am a fan. I'm still
a fan to this day. But if I'm in the
training room, you know, with Michael Jordan's and he's cool
with me being there, then the other twelve guys on
the team at the time, they were cool with it.

(09:47):
If it just could if it's cool with him, it's
cool with everyone else. Or you know, the coaches see
you around and I'm not there too. You know, I'm
there to document things. I try to blend in. I
don't it's never going to be about me. I'd use
you know, different settings in the camera technically, so there's

(10:08):
not a flash going off, or you know, if a
coach is given a pregame speech or something, I just
want to I just want to blend in and and
document it, you know. Um. And I've been very fortunate
over the years to a lot of for a lot
of people, from you know, pr staff to coaching staff,
uh for for people allowing me to have that access.

(10:32):
Whose idea was it to put all the rings on
Bill Russell's fingers and and have him put his hands
on his chin like that. So many people know that photo,
that's your photo. You mentioned it just now. How did
that idea come about? That's a great question because there's
another crazy story behind that particular photo we were working

(10:56):
on was the fiftieth anniversary of uh NBA recently had
the seventy five anniversary, so as part of the recognition
of the fiftieth anniversary team, we were doing individual portraits
of the fifty players and that was like a once

(11:16):
in a lifetime, you know, assignment, and we would have little,
you know meetings before zoom. We would actually talk to
people and and say, you know, George Iceman, girvand we
got to recreate that poster. Him sitting on the ice
was just so cool Bill Russell. The first it wasn't
even that big a discussion. The first thing that comes

(11:38):
to mind is the eleven championships. That's Bill Russell, you know. Um,
But the crazy backstory of that was Bill Russell didn't
get eleven rings. In those days, they didn't get a
ring for every championship. And I was like what because
now it's like so common you get a ring, you

(12:00):
win a championship and get a ring, a big gold rings.
Now yeah. Um, so there is a lot of urban
myth um that we're still believes or not the twenty
years late, we're still trying to find out exactly. Um.
But he received a couple of rings. Then they didn't
get a ring. He got a watch one year, he

(12:22):
got cuff links one year. Um. So what we did
for that particular photo to signify the eleven championships is
what he borrowed some teammates rings. There was some front
office people that we borrowed the rings and it was
like okay, great. But then as the photographer, technically that

(12:45):
posed some challenge because you know, the rings where we
had the idea of posing them this way, but I
didn't want to read sat Sanders name on the ring,
you know, so I had to do it verry uh
technically to show the rings but have a little bit

(13:06):
of soft focus on the detail of the ring while
his face and his smile. Everyone loved his smile. And
has left while that was tax sharp you know. Um,
so it it posed some logistical issues. But we had
uh an NBA guy fly up to Boston. He picked

(13:27):
up eleven rings. He came home with eleven rings. We
had the rings for five or six hours. He flew
back to Boston that night with all the rings to
return the rings. There was a lot of there was
a lot of behind the scenes pressure on that. It
was a once in a lifetime opportunity for sure. Did
you know when you're taking it that what an iconic photo.

(13:49):
It's gonna bated you feel that, And you know what,
I didn't to be honest, because at that point you're
so locked in the moment um. You know, people were
talking about, well Mr Russell could be a little surly.
You have to do this, you have to do that.
We didn't have much time. It was probably a ten
minute shoot. We set up, we tested, we did other things,

(14:13):
and then he came walking down the whole laughing with
that cackle that he had. He couldn't have been nicer. Um.
We told him about the idea. The original idea, to
be quite honest, was ten rings, one on each finger
and then the eleventh in his tooth like smiling with

(14:35):
it in So I actually took took that picture, but
it didn't look good and he didn't like it actually,
and I didn't like it either, which was great. H
So he said, you know what, I don't look, slip
it on your pinky. So then on on his last pinky,
he slipped on the eleventh and a beautiful smile and

(14:57):
it has, you know, become an icon. Next shot and literally,
I mean eleven championships thirteen years. It's it's crazy. And
he and he was kind of uh, he could be
kind of a surly character, as you mentioned, but he
did always have that smile that lit up a room
and that laugh that was just so distinguishable. And I

(15:18):
had gotten a chance to interview him, luckily, and it
was it was an amazing experience. He was as nice
as could be. I would imagine that over the years.
He was a guy. Uh that was that was fun
to photograph. You've gotten a lot of photographs of Bill
Russell over the years. Yeah, and you know, I never

(15:39):
I'm not that old. I never saw him play, but
would hear the stories from my dad, and you know,
meeting him as a basketball fin was it was a
tremendous honor, you know, and then thankfully that all came together.
He actually loved the photo. So he had used that

(15:59):
photo you know, on some of his other projects. And
as you know, he's not the type of guy to
do autograph signings, uh, but he he liked the photo.
We had it. We developed a friendship after that. UM.
But then you know, going back to like me being
a fly on the wall just watching him at bigger events, UM,

(16:23):
to see how other players would react in his presence
at the whole of Fame every year at the NBA
All Star every to see other NBA legends, just the
way that they, uh, they interacted with Mr. Russell was
was incredible. You know. It's the old like game respects
game kind of thing. Yeah, You've got a lot, That's

(16:45):
what I mean about over the years, being able to
shoot him, not as a player, but when he would
meet all these you know, pictures of him and and
the superstars of today or just recently, you could you
could see, you know, and you see a picture of
Kobe Bryant and Bill Russell, you just you know, you
can you can feel the admiration and the respect and

(17:06):
and these guys that become who have become such stars,
but they become like little kids when they're around their heroes.
And I think in general the NBA, unlike a lot
of other UH sports, some of the older players are
so complementary of the of the current players. It's not like, oh,

(17:28):
back in my day, Kobe wouldn't have done anything would
shut them down. Like these guys have respect for the
current players because they appreciate their greatness, and the current
players and younger players have a huge respect and knowledge
of those that came before them and paved the way

(17:49):
for them, you know. And I think that's very unique,
and it's a good synergy between past and present players
so that you're you get like the John Stark's photo
dunking iconic, because what's great about it is everybody can
remember that moment, you know, and then you see that
picture and it all comes rushing back to you. If

(18:09):
you were watching the game live, you remember what what
an incredible moment that was in a game, And so
you see that photo and it just makes you flash
back to that. What's the key to getting a great
on court action photo? You know, Like it's it's there's
a there's a tremendous amount of preparation that goes into things.

(18:34):
There's a little bit of luck, you know, there's you know,
it's the experience factor plays into it. But you know,
as you know, when you're doing a live call, like sometime,
if the referee was six inches over, could have blocked
my shot, or you get an extraneous armor leg in

(18:54):
your photo, like we're not posing the guys, but you
make your own luck, right, I mean, sometimes you have
to know, all right, I know if I'm here, I
won't get blocked, or I know if I had this angle,
the light will be right, or I know I'm going
to get the garden ceiling in here. So yeah, your preparation,
you're always that finally that the shot that you get
is sort of the end of what has been a

(19:17):
long road of preparation and experience. I would imagine right
now that that that is is very true. And you know,
like I said, a little bit of a little bit
of luck. And we you know, the Starks shot was nine.
We're shooting on film. Obviously back then you never know,

(19:37):
you think, you know, you never know until the film's
you know developed. In those days, Um, we're not shooting
you know, we use what's called strobes and the ceiling
that gives it a better quality, a different look. So
I get one shot, a newspaper, guy sitting next to me,
you know, gets ten or twelve now five team frames

(20:00):
a second, like on a motor drive. Like we're just shooting.
I'm just shooting one shot every five or six seconds,
you know. So it's it becomes a mental thing as well.
You're following the ball, waiting for that exact moment um.
And I I like that challenge, you know, uh, And

(20:22):
I still I'm very fortunately, I still enjoy that so much.
When you're sitting courtside, are you watching these sequences through
your lens? I mean, I would imagine you have to
be watching it through your lens to click it at
the right time. But you can't be saying I had
the camera down around your chest and all of a

(20:42):
sudden bring it up really quick, right, I mean, you've
got to be watching it through your lens. No, the
whole time, I'm very very much dialed in, focused literally
figuratively looking through the lens, just waiting for that moment
because inevitably you put the camera down, um, and that's

(21:03):
the shot you don't get uh, and it's painful for me,
But I do have one of those moments as well,
and it's important to remember that. Uh. Wait, what would
that because you share that with us. Of course, one
of the greatest basketball moments of all time. Um, the
Olympics in Sydney, when Vince jumped over Frederick Weiss. Um,

(21:29):
my shot would not have been good because it happened
at the other end of the court. So I'm defending
myself a little bit. But at the Olympics, we're shooting
four or five games a day, and I put one.
If you look at the replay, I've looked at the
replay hundreds of times. Uh. It happened in transition. There

(21:50):
was a steel I want to say, KG stole the
ball or something. So we use one camera when the
balls at one end of the court. When they come
towards you, you pick up and use a different camera.
So I was between cameras. KG stole the ball um
and passed it to Vince down the other end of

(22:10):
the court. Uh, and he had to jump over Frederick Weiss.
Was one of the craziest shots of all time in basketball,
you know. Uh, And I was at the wrong side
of the court. You can't help that. Um, but I
did not. I did not get that shot. And you're
you're just like a played by play guy. We could

(22:32):
have a million good calls and we'll remember the one
that we screwed up, that I gave you the wrong
description or I got tongue tied or my voice cracked
or something like that. No, but I I I can
we can relate, right because that that also what what
drives you? Yes, I had shooting five games a day.
What no, no excuse. You know I'm terrible with names.

(22:54):
I don't know how you guys are so quick with
with your names. I would be like that old that
old funny. Uh, what's the Johnny most number five? How
I would be. That's how I would be. My my
announcing career would last about thirty seconds. Well, and the
other thing about it is too is is is being

(23:17):
uh focused on doing your job. And sometimes you you
you get a sense of the moment at the time,
but you can't enjoy it like somebody's just watching, because
you have to be focused on getting the right shot.
I mean, I I even go back to when I started.
I used to do sports phone. Remember sports phone, it's
like night. Yeah, that's how you had to get your

(23:41):
scores back then. And I started there. I was. I
used to do that when I was like right out
of college. And I remember the remember that Joe Carter
home run to win the World Series for the Toronto
Blue Jays that time, right, And I used to have
to do the recording every ten minutes, and you'd be
in a with a bank of TVs and guys are
keeping update the scores, and and I remember, like, you know,

(24:01):
being a sports fan, people are like, wow, it's great,
you get to just go in and watch all these
games everything. I said, yeah, but every ten minutes, I
have to keep updating the scores and going in and
doing a recording. And I'm waiting on the joke Carter
at bat because I've got to do another recording. And
but I'm waiting, and I'm waiting because I want to
make sure I get this, and I go I gotta
do what. I gotta go in and I'm in the
booth recording and I missed the home run and I

(24:23):
have to come back out, and then I find everybody's
going crazy what happened? And now I gotta go back
and do it. Anyway, so yeah, but you you miss
stuff because you're sometimes you know, like you said, you're
looking through a lens. It's hard for you to get
a sense of you know, probably when you go back
and look at the highlight on TV, you now get
a sense of the crowd and the teammates. But you're
you're you're honed in on that one. You know. Two guys, No,

(24:47):
and literally I'm not putting the camera down. There's a
time out, I'll look at you know, the time, the clock,
the score, some team like it could be a tie game.
Just like you, guys, I need to know if there's
a time out, if there's a tie score and the

(25:08):
team has no time out so you can inbound and
run it up court. I need to know that, you know.
So that is where the mental component comes comes in.
Uh to two things like time place score is hugely
important to all of us. You're you're in the line
of fire a lot being on the court on the baseline.

(25:30):
I saw the other night, I forget who it was.
And in the next game, you were there baseline and
I saw a player almost ram into you. Is there
do you have like a do you have like a
second sense of like if you're looking through your camera
and these bodies are all around you. Do you have
a sense of maneuvering out of the way and knowing

(25:51):
when there's a guy coming towards you. You do develop
a little bit of of instinct that way. Typically from
the you should say a sixth sense. I said second sense.
It made like a sixth sense, like a quarterback feels
someone coming from the weak side or something. Because it's
very similar, very simple. That's a great analogy to a
quarterback in the pocket, where you've got to take focused

(26:14):
down the field and maneuver out of the way. At times, No,
because I want to. Typically we're following the ball. Sometimes
things happen, you know, off ball, but typically following the ball,
but you sort of feel something or send something coming,
and you know, never wanna you know, we were like
the referees. Perhaps you never want to be the story.

(26:35):
I don't want someone tripping over me. I don't want
to I don't want to be injured. I don't want
to injure someone else. We just want to blend in
and and do our do our job. How did it
all start for you, Nat? How did you uh come
to first pick up a camera? Um? You know, it's
a it's a great question. UM. I was always always

(26:59):
in just it in sports. I played sports. Uh had
was interested in photography. UM. I would take from where
where were you? How did you? How did you become
interested in photography? You know what I grew up? Um?
I grew up in mom talk. My dad was a fisherman. UM.
And I bought a camera and would take take some

(27:23):
pictures while we were out fishing. The sunrise, you know,
the sunset and some long days out there, and just
things that I was attracted to, like that, you saw that,
you saw the beauty and that stuff, and you wanted
to capture and then like everyone else, like you know,
depending on how how old the audience is. Uh. Sports

(27:45):
Illustrated would literally run to the mailbox every Thursday, um
and look at the photos, read the articles. They had
tremendous staff of writers as well, ripping out pick has
had posters up in my room, you know. UM, and

(28:06):
I went to St. John's. I'm not a Fordham guy. Uh.
When went to St. John's, was not obviously good enough
to play on the on the basketball team, but was
always hanging around the gym and started taking pictures of
the St. John's in those days it was crazy Chris Mullen,

(28:28):
Walter Berry, Mark Jackson, like crazy teams. So started taking pictures,
became friends with them working for the school newspaper. Similar
if you're working for a college radio station, you know
on your end, and you know, things kind of took
off from them. I was fortunate enough to work as
an apprentice at Sports Illustrated UM for some of their

(28:51):
legendary photographers, and you pick up a little from this guy,
a little from this guy on the techno. How did
you get how did you can with Sports Illustrated? You
know what? UM At the time St. John's was like
number one and number two in the country. St John's,
Georgetown Chrismaul and Patrick doing so. I would be shooting

(29:11):
the games at at Madison Square Garden, those crazy Big
East matchups, and Sports Illustrated would be covering the games
as well. UM. So got to know some of their
photographers and stuff and offered up my you know, assistance
in helping you know, slepping cases and gear and cameras

(29:32):
around and it just sort of, um it's sort of evolved,
um from that to working while I was still in
school nights weekends for Sports Illustrated as an assistant apprentice.
Was there a mentor in your career? There a guy
that you met, UH, photographer that that helped out. There

(29:52):
were so many at the time. Manny Milan was a
big basketball shooter. Um. We covered so many basketball games together.
He also did boxing. We covered all the Mike Tyson fights.
We followed Mike Tyson around from when he was thirteen
years old. Uh. Then worked with other people. Walter jos
is the you know, the famous photographer that had had

(30:16):
done the Michael Jordan's book and he has so many
iconic UH photos from over the years. Neil life are
like literally go right down the list and it was
like the heyday of you know those s I legendary
photographers and I it was like immeasurable how much I
learned from them. Do you have something in your head?

(30:39):
I mean, I know I learned my craft from Marty
Clickman in college and I always have his mantra, you know,
consider the listener. Is there something that you have from
one of those guys starting out, you know, UH, something
that is always in the back of your mind that's
kind of shaped your career as a photographer. Yes, Um,

(31:01):
and it has to do more like with some of
the feature stuff, uh not the games per se. The
games sort of uh take care of themselves with what happens.
Like again, we're not posing them, but when we're um,
when we're posing them, like in a hotel room, what

(31:22):
kind of set do I use? What kind of lighting
do I use to make it um, to make it interesting?
You know, And it would be like, oh, what would
Walter do? What would any Leebowitz do in this moment?
And just sort of do something on the creative aspect
of that. What's the the you know, getting that we

(31:43):
talked about getting sort of comfortable with people and how
people are comfortable with you. Were there ever guys that
were it was it was difficult. There was a challenge
to break through, to finally get them to trust you
to get a good shot. That maybe was always sort
of your your you know, the your white whale, so

(32:04):
steak you know what. Um. Yes, And I was younger
at the time. Larry Bird, he was all basketball, didn't
like getting his photo taken. And by the way I was,
I was younger at the time. He he you knew
he was sensitive to those things, like he just didn't
just didn't like it, you know, and I respected that.

(32:26):
I was a huge fan, but there were you know,
there were moments that I that I you know, here's
a perfect example, like you know, we now do these
walk in shots that have become you know, the arrivals,
the fashion, what are they wearing, the sneakers, whatever, are
such a huge deal of what we do now. You know, um,

(32:48):
thirty well more than that, thirty years um, Larry Bird
walking into Boston Garden. There was the old timers will
remember the old Boston Garden. It was a wood ramp
walking up the back and we would always be there
early because we're setting up cameras, lights, whatever. And Larry

(33:08):
Bird walked in with Converse sneakers over his shoulder, a
basketball under his arm, walking into the arena, and I
didn't take the picture. I was fumbling and bumbling, and
then I knew he wouldn't like it, and I'm like,
do I do it? I do it? And I didn't,

(33:30):
And now I wish I had the picture, but whatever,
I didn't want to piss him off either, you know,
so things like you know, he he was a tough one.
But then at the end of his career, like you know,
he I think there was like mutual respect. Whatever he
had his last season, he asked for a couple of

(33:53):
of pictures and it's amazing he's got the memory of
do you have this picture? Do you have this moment? This?
And I was fortun enough to get a great photo
of the last time him stepping on the the court
in Boston Garden. They lost on the road, but he
was injured his back and sort of had a feeling

(34:14):
it could have been his last time. And those old
Celtic warmups they had the name that was like it
wasn't sewing on the back but him a bird warm
up jackets stepping on the court for the last time
as sort of just I'm a fan, you know, I
love that pictures the last time he stepped on on

(34:36):
the parquet of Boston Garden. Do you get a lot
of guys will say to you, hey, hey, Ned, did
you get that picture of me doing this? Can I
get one like this? Do you get a lot of
that from players? You know what? More so now because
it's more in the moment, but it is because I
have been doing it for so long. It is cool,
like if we were to do a feature at someone's

(34:58):
house and you walk into their house and they have
like pictures of mine hanging in their house or something.
This is sort of cool or now some of the
some of the younger guys are like, well, who's that
And then you know, they say, oh, that's not he's
the guy that took this picture. And they're like, oh, wow,
you know that. So that's kind of cool for me.
You brought up Larry Bird in the old Boston Garden.

(35:20):
I know there's a you have another iconic photograph of
um that first finals with Magic and the hook shot over.
I think it was like Parrish mcale and Bird all
in the photo. Such a great photo, and Magic was
such a photogenic guy, and we know what that Magic
Bird rivalry kind of did for the league. Um did

(35:40):
that kind of do the same maybe for your your
career as well? Uh? Sort of? Um, Like I was
just along for the ride at that point, like Magic Lakers,
I mean Celtic Lakers. Oh it's another year sacred like
Laker Celtics Final, Like we thought that was gonna happen
every year, you know, Um, but it really it at

(36:04):
that point that seven was Game four. Magic again, you
talked about right place, right time. I was on a
typically opposite side of the court that I normally would
prefer to be, but I was the junior guy at
that point, no pun intended. He came across the lane,

(36:25):
hook shot, hit the shot, keep running right off the court. Uh.
And the and the you know Lakers came into Boston
Garden and install Game four like that, and then like
you go on on a you know in those days
the parades, and you're on the float, um, sitting on
a float with pat Riley in l A like this

(36:48):
is this job could be pretty fun, you know. Um,
and it just sort of has has taken off from there.
So you say it's a preferred side of the court,
You mean it's terms of which basket or on either
side of the basket, a little of both. But again
you're not And that's like a we don't have photography analytics.

(37:11):
But it's coming, you know, yeah, it's coming. Um, there's
I like to be on the side of the basket
where you have good access to shoot both benches. The
coach comes over, they talk to someone. Most of the
players are right handed. They finish with their strong hand. Uh,
it's funny. I'm shooting a lot of Knicks games as

(37:33):
I typically do. The Knicks have three left handed players
uh in the starting lineup this year with Brunson, Randall
and r J. And they do things differently, you know
what I mean. So it's a whole different mental uh component.
You shoot a little earlier on a drive because otherwise

(37:55):
you get the hand in front of the faith like
that kind of stuff. So there's just different, uh, different
things that way. And do you want to be on
so like if you're you're you're there. Let's say you're
you're in a net game at Barkley Center, do you
want the nets offense to be in front of you?
Do you switch ends at both sides or do you

(38:15):
do you shoot? Do you stay on the same end
the whole game? Typically? Now I stay on on one side.
We shoot some of the visiting team and we set
up what we call like remote cameras at the other
end to cover things. And Barclays lends itself to some
great positions, like up in the ceiling you have a
camera for a certain angle and it just creatively. UM.

(38:40):
I play with the lighting there a little bit with
our with our um lighting where sometimes I like when
the background goes really dark, uh. And they have a
black uniform, or the visiting team comes in in a
red uniform and it just pops a little bit. Um.
So those are those are things. Because I'm the are

(39:00):
you know, pretty much every game of that I can
I do. Uh, I am afforded opportunity to try some
different things. I can't even imagine how much your your
job has changed over the years from going from film.
I mean back when you started, right, you would you
would take all these shots. You had to be cognizant
of how much film you're using. You had to change

(39:22):
the film right and then, and then you might have
to go back and develop the pictures to see what
you got. Now everything is instantaneous stuff. You could work
cameras remotely. I mean in a way, it's it's amazing
how much your job has changed. No, pent and um
that has sort of kept me fresh with things like

(39:43):
you know, people love that that camera that we put
up um behind the basket. It's behind the backboard and
you get like some eye contact when guys come in
with the rim. It's a great angle. Well back in
the film days, I would have twenty four shots for
the entire game. Wow, Scottie Pippen coming in on a

(40:06):
crazy dunk. Do I take the shot or do I
wait for m J to perhaps do it? Like literally,
this is what this is what you're thinking. Patrick Ewing
does a little baby hook over Rick Smith's I'm taking
that picture, you know. But those are the that's the
thought process you have to have had, you know, for

(40:27):
taking the picture. Then. Uh, Now things are digital obviously,
and the you know that people are familiar with. You know,
let's go to the replay center in so Caucus. Well,
all of my cameras are wired. We go to the
arena crazy early, they're all wired. I hit the button

(40:49):
and the images go to ce Caucus. We have an
editing group in c Caucus that works nights. They have
the image in two seconds. Um, I mean if it's
a great and it's just up on Instagram and it
could be a million views before you even saw it. No,
well that's typically that's what happens. Like I'm dialed in,
I'm I'm doing the game and then you know, I

(41:11):
literally I turned my phone off during the games. Uh,
I'm driving home, you know, two hours after the game,
my phone's blowing up with this picture, that picture. I
don't even you know, I don't even haven't seen the
picture yet. Um, that kind of that kind of but
that's that's sort of cool. Like back in the day,

(41:31):
it was very prestigious. You get a cover of Sports Illustrated.
I think they had a subscription basis of three million people.
You know. Now NBA Instagram has sixty million that see
it instantaneously. Brooklyn nets four million people that they have

(41:52):
access to the photo literally seconds after you hit the button.
It's a different it's a different world. How many cameras
do you have going like a typical game at Barkley Center,
how many cameras do you have set up? You know
where I sit, I have two cameras where I sit
with different the baseline on the baseline and then typically

(42:13):
have four or five cameras down at the other end
with different angles rigged on top of the backboard correct
up in the up in the ceiling, like straight down.
There's a cool angle that we do now, um that
Andy Bernstein and I came up with. It's kind of
like you'll notice in the basket stanchion there's a little

(42:36):
they call it the mouse hole. There's a little hole
cut in the rubber that we stick a camera in.
To get like up underneath again something different? Um, and
are you clicking though? Is there? I mean is it
on your phone? Like? How do you how do you
click a photo on those cameras. Those cameras are pre

(42:57):
focused on different spots. So I'm looking through my my camera,
I'm shooting, and then if a player were to turn
instead of me getting a picture of his back, I
will click a different button. Two. Then if they're turning
and facing one of those other cameras. Oh wow, So

(43:17):
all those other cameras work off a button on the phone,
on on the on the camera that you always hold
in your hand. Correct. And that's something that I've just
developed over the years with some different people working with
you know, technology and things that like I said, it's uh,
it keeps me. It keeps me going, like better mousetrap
kind of mentality. You know. Sure, however, you've got to

(43:40):
get the shot right. I mean, you use the latest
technology exactly. Do you ever do you ever kind of
walk around the arena? Do you say, all right, you
know what this game here, it's a random Tuesday night.
I'm gonna just go sit in section six and just
look around and take photos or get interesting I do
it all the time, not actually where I would personally sit,

(44:02):
because again statistically where I sit, you're going to get
the best shots. But I do that all the time
for for these remote camera positions, for sure, and different
arenas lend themselves to different things. If you put a camera,
you know, you can't block someone's view or you don't

(44:23):
want to fan messing with it or something. But if
it's above a vomb somewhere that has a little bit
of a different angle, Uh, we do some things, you know.
I was just looking through some older stuff and there
was a cool picture, um, straight down over the team
huddle and it was coach Pop with the you know,

(44:46):
with the with the board, and then it was Duncan
Genobolie Parker all around him and you see the top
of their names, you know, coming straight down from the
top and it's it's preparation obviously, but a little a
bit of a little bit of luck never hurts either. Sure,
I said, luck meats preparation exactly. Um, it's fascinating. We

(45:09):
can talk for hours, but I don't want to keep
you for hours. But um, when you're not in an
NBA game, are you walking around town taking photos? Is it.
Is it a hobby as well as a job. I mean,
is it just something that is just your nature to
be out and wanting to capture photographs. It is to

(45:30):
a certain extent sometimes like I'm sure, I'm sure even
for you, like you have to turn the switch off, um,
because it is for me personally, it's very consuming. Like
when I'm at a game, like oftentimes I have to
apologize to people, please don't I'm not being rude, but
I'm not chit chatting, you know, like if you're going

(45:53):
over your pregame notes, people want, hey, Chris, nice to meet,
saying like it's all wonderful, but you have to like
it's my Personnelit like it for those you know, hours
that I'm there, It does, you know, consume me driving
into the game, I'm thinking who the players are, what
who the opponent is? Like it's all part of the process,

(46:15):
you know, So I do turn the switch off. Uh.
Sometimes with in terms of the photography, like we joked
about it earlier, taking pictures of the dogs or something
is fun. I used totally different cameras, something different. Use
my phone a lot. The phone takes good pictures, you know. Uh,
kind of thing you know. Um, so yeah, yeah, Like

(46:39):
you go to a wedding or something, people are like
look and you you know you have your cameratures right, No,
it does. It does happen, um, And I enjoy uh.
I enjoyed doing like the behind the scenes type stuff
at at weddings. I always have like I do uh,
or a friend's birthday or something. You bring a little

(47:01):
camera but just to get more of the candid moments
and stuff and it's fun. What's the favorite camera you've
ever had? You know what? It has evolved over time, um,
with different you know technology. I started with like an
old like that the Life magazine photographers would use, um,

(47:27):
hustle blood. Uh. During the film Heyday was awesome. I
like literally it just feels good in your hands. The
way it's built constructed, the engineering of it, it's it's
the camera itself is a piece of art, you know. Um.

(47:48):
And now now I'm I'm shooting with cannon um gear
with digital and that. You know, there's different models and
versions and things of that always evolving. Everybody is a
photographer now with their phones and having a place to
put it on Instagram, things like that social media. So

(48:09):
if somebody's if somebody's taking a trip or they're doing something,
should they invest in a camera, expensive camera maybe? Or
or is the phone good enough that you get really
good you know what. It depends on what you're looking for.
But I even have found myself when I have a camera,

(48:31):
I use the phone sometimes in those instances it's more
about the moment, and I am sensitive. I don't want
to slep a bag full of six different lenses. You
want something, you know, light, and you take a picture
of the cat um you're I haven't been on vacation
and will have to be honest, that's a different story.

(48:52):
But if you're on a vacation, I wanna like I
would enjoy the sunset and not worry about taking a
picture of it by a postcar it or something, you
know what I mean. That's that's just me. But the
a lot of the older people are like the phones.
The phone. The phone, it's a good tool. It's a camera.
It's a beautiful it's a beautiful camera, and it produces

(49:16):
uh great things. I get pictures of my nieces and
nephews texted to me on the on the phone. I
love it, you know, it's it's where we are and
and the quality. Um, the quality is remarkable on on
the phones. So I would embrace it. And it goes
back to I think are the moral of the conversation is.

(49:38):
You know, it's a it's about capturing the moment, right,
you know, yes, you wanted to be technically sound and everything,
but it's about being I would imagine most of your
jobs like being in the right place and knowing when
to click the butt. Yeah. Absolutely so when people are
out there with their their iPhone or whatever, I know

(50:00):
what I know one like photography term, I'll go a
rule of thirds. Right, you want to kind of get
it into the subject, not necessarily straight in the middle,
but you want to kind of get it into a
third of the camera. What's the key to taking that
good that good I G shot for somebody, whether or
not they're shooting their dinner or a sunset or or dogs. Yeah,

(50:24):
it's a it's a great question, and I think there's
pertin the that's the old school of of thirds. When
you have the time and ability to uh to compose that.
You know, we're not shooting action with the iPhone or whatever. Um,
but it is it is fun and the like the

(50:44):
quality and the settings and this and that on on
the phone is remarkable and you know, playing with the
dogs or kids or you know, people instagramming their photo
of their dinner. Like, the quality is pretty damn good.
But do you want that you want the subject to
be off center more towards the bottom. Does it matter?

(51:08):
That's a personal preference. I like. Um there there it
is an option even on the phones, uh, for those
of you with your phones out there, if it's in
a portrait mode, Uh, it makes the background fall off
a little bit in terms of focus, so the subject

(51:29):
pops a little. Um. And you know we do that
with the cameras all the time, technically change the settings. Uh.
There's some artificial intelligence involved in the on the phones
that can do it automatically most times. But something like
that is a stylistic there's no right or wrong, you know. Um,
but it does. It does pop a little. And you'll

(51:52):
notice even on the TV broadcast, like they have the
cameras now watching the World series, the guy hits a home,
or he's running around or like the cameraman is actually
running with him, and we pull it like a shallow
depth of field where the guy's rounding third and he's
sharp and in focus, but there's immediate fall off. The

(52:12):
crowd is just a big blur um and it it
it catches your eye and it's a it's a cool
uh it's a cool visual in my opinion, Nat Butler. So,
I like to end these things that we've taken so
much of your time. Um. I like to end these things.
Talk about remember the Jim Valvano never give Up speech

(52:35):
at the Spiece. Um. He said everybody to have a
full day, you should do three things every day. You
should laugh, cry, and think. Uh So Nat Butler, NBA
esteem photographer. Um, what makes you laugh? You know what?

(52:56):
I would like to think that I have a good
sense of humor. Um. And I typically after a late
night at a game, I'll have coffee and scroll through
the phone like so many of us now, um, and
there are some good uh Twitter accounts, some Instagram account

(53:17):
that make you that make you laugh, make you smile.
I don't. I don't to be honest, I don't do
a lot of the sports stuff to just get a breather.
And there's like the thoughts of a dog account that
makes me smile. There's a great account. Now it's sports,
but art or something like that. Um, and great follow

(53:39):
makes you smile, makes you laugh, makes you think. All right,
what about funny players in the NBA? Do you have
anybody that stands out that used to make you laugh?
You know what? Um? I was always a big Shock
fan for obvious reasons. Um. You know, he just a
good mess around with you. Of course, like there were

(54:02):
times during a game where he would even reach over
and pick up my camera and he's trying to shoot
a picture and the like that kind of thing. Um.
But um, you know sometimes I think during the games
is obviously more of the serious moment. Earlier in the episode,
you mentioned that you'll you'll you'll cry at the drop

(54:24):
of a hat like a commercial or something. Is that
what what moves you? Two tears? It's hard. Yeah, it's
hard to Um, it's hard to pinpoint, but like just
a lot of different things to be honest, Like, I
know what these guys go through, like uh, to get

(54:45):
where they are. There's a fine line about who separates
who like uh. And it's just something I'm pretty pretty
emotional and sensitive and that's happened, I guess with age
and having kids and things. Sure I'm just a little
bit more uh, less of a hard ass and just
more sentimental, you know, or emotional about about things, you know,

(55:10):
in a in a good way. When you walk into
the Barkley Center, there's the oculus. You know, everybody can
see any kind of message up there, and if you
could put something up there, this is the think part
of it, where you want people to think about what
you want a message to be that you can get
out to as many people as you can. What would

(55:30):
you what would you put up there? You know what,
It's an awesome question. Um, I'm big on like, I'm
terrible with my words. I'm a kind of guy that
takes twenty minutes to sign a birthday card. I'm a
visual guy. Your thought. However, I'm big on respect, like

(55:52):
or a picture. You could you tell me you want
to put a picture up there, like just just be
be respectful. And you know, like and and you you
are a perfect example of this of you're walking into
the Barkley's Center, Like, there's a guy that parks the
car we get in, there's the security, there's the elevator guy,

(56:15):
there's this there's a whole hundreds of people that are there.
You know, it's not it's not only about you know,
what happens between the lines, you know, uh, and just
be respectful. Everyone has a job to do and in
order for the whole team, and I mean that in
the literal sense of the word, that the whole team

(56:37):
to be successful. Everybody has to do their part, and
you know, no one is more important than the other.
It's a it's a it's a respect thing. And I
think whether it's work, personal, whatever, that that was instilled
at a very young age in me by my by
my parents, and and I really, I really believe that,

(57:01):
you know, and acrosses so many uh so many things.
So you'd put a wreath up there R S P
C T. There you go, uh on Instagram at Natalie
photo n A T L Y photo. What's the Natalie?

(57:22):
That was just a nickname, a nickname I had and
trying to be a little bit like. There was a
there was a photographer when I was growing up, a
surfing photographer that his you know, you have the name
by the picture. His thing was flame and I've always
thought that was that was cool. I didn't think something

(57:44):
like that would go over too well with NBA in
NBA circles, but Natalie was my h was my nickname.
So instead of Nathaniel Butler being a little lengthy, we
just Natalie Photo. And Instagram has been fun for me
because I do you know, different things, pictures that people

(58:04):
may or may not have seen before. You know, not uh,
not running the mill. It's always something, you know, it's
always something positive or something cool that I that I'm
trying to do something a little different. Now. This is great.
Thanks so much for sharing these stories and talking to us.
But no, thanks, it's been it's been fun. And the

(58:27):
thing that I take away is as the years add up,
I guess I don't know if you would you were
like started two thousand, two thousand one, Like, you meet
a lot of people, and that's that's what I take
away from it, is like the people that I've met
all these years, it's it's really been a privilege. Thanks
that alright. NBA photographer Nat Butler again on Instagram at

(58:51):
Natalie Photo n A T. L y Photo see some
of what we talked about. Uh, photographs on the mind.
Sometimes I really think that I'm in a dream, like
the world is just my dream, because it's hard to
not think that you're the center of the universe when
I get up this morning to record this, and I'm thinking,

(59:13):
as I'm going to bed last night, what's a movie
or a show that reminds me, you know, has about
photographs and songs about photographs, and thinking about what I'm
gonna talk to not about and having gone through some
stuff with him and looking over his stuff. And then
I I do wordle every morning. I don't know, don't
judge me, but every morning I get up and I

(59:34):
do wordle as I'm maybe having a little coffee or
my smoothie in the morning. And the the the wordle
word today was photo and it took me like the
fifth try to get it, like sometimes the universe is
giving you the answers and you're you're you're looking at
other directions and it's right in front of your face. Um.

(59:55):
The other day I was talking about Robin Williams with
somebody what a great comedian he was, and we talked
about how he was an amazing dramatic actor as well.
There's a movie from the early two thousand's, it was
two thousand two. He played a villain, he plays a
bad guy. He was masterful. He was such a great

(01:00:17):
actor and comedian. But this it's called one hour photo.
So that's my thing to watch on the theme of today.
And when it comes to music, I could have gone
with what was like the soundtrack to my eighth grade
year def Leppards Pyromania album Photograph right, It could have
done that, but I'm not going to do that. Um

(01:00:39):
take a picture by filter. Good song, but I'm not
not making the cut here. Honorable mention Frank Turner, the
great Londoner who was like kind of like a punk
folk singer songwriter guy that I love. Uh as a
song called Polaroid Picture, which is a great song. But
for this, for my choice today, it's the great Tom Waits,

(01:01:04):
the gravelly voiced singer actor. I know that a lot
of people it's he's a he's a acquired taste and
a lot of his songs are are made more famous
by others who saying it like Bruce Springsteen's Jersey Girl,
Jersey Girls a Tom Waits song. Rod Stewart had a
hit Downtown Trained. I think somebody else meant a hit
with that as well. That's a Tom Waits song. Tom

(01:01:26):
Waits has a song Picture in a Frame, beautiful, beautiful song.
You know what me? I loved the imagery of words
and the mood of shirt and song. It's awesome. Picture
in a Frame by Tom Waits. I love you, baby,
and I always will ever since I put your picture

(01:01:49):
in a frame. Thanks to Nat Butler. Thanks to my
producer Tom Dowd, engineer Isaac Lean. I'm Chris Carino. This
is the voice of the NETS podcast. We'll talk to
you next year. Four