Episode 26: Brooklyn's Oscar-Nominated Filmmaker, Shaka King

The writer and director of Best Picture nominee Judas and the Black Messiah talks about hoop dreams, learning from Spike Lee, his love for Goodfellas, and the movies that move him.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hey, what's going on? This is another addition to the
Voice of the Nets podcast. I'm Chris Carino today a
very special guest with us, an actual Academy Award nominated
director Shaka King is going to join us here in
a moment, but first I just wanted to take a
moment to give my own little acceptance speech here and

(00:33):
thanks some important people in my life. I was lucky
enough last week to be awarded with something called the
Values of the Game Award from the m b A.
It was in Miami during the Nets heat and was
tricked into staying another day in Miami. My family was
down and I got duped into attending the sales and

(00:55):
marketing meeting, just kind of crashing the meeting late in
the afternoon, and then is completely shocked when I was
recognized with the Values of the Game Award. And I
am incredibly honored to accept an award that is described
as recognizing an individual at an NBA team who exemplifies
the values of the league in their community. And I

(01:17):
know it's a combination of my thirty years with the
Nets and the achievements there. And while I am challenged
with F S H D muscular districte and the work
we've done with the Chris Carino Foundation for f s
h D. And um I say I was trick because
Joe Cuomo, the NETS traveling Secretary equipment manager, he knew

(01:40):
my family was coming down, which unbannownst to me was
also a ruse, and they were coming down. They thought
just to spend a weekend in Miami, and it turned
out they knew all long I was getting this award
and they wanted to be there, and and Joe said,
why don't you spend an extra night. I've got a
comp room at the Fountain Blue And there we go.
And then Georgia McGurk, who's the assistant to NET CEO

(02:02):
Sam Zussman, reached out to me and said, hey, Sam's
gonna be a Miami two would love to meet you
when he has a break from these sales and marketing meetings.
Why don't you come, And you know, he wanted to
just get to know you a little bit more. Come
and have a meeting with him, which you know I did,
and that's the reason I thought I was going over here.
And then he he said to me, Hey, there's a
guest speaker about to speak in the meeting. I think

(02:23):
you'd enjoy one should come in And that got me
into the room and then I was gonna leave. It
was over. They start giving out like sales and marketing awards,
and I said, I don't know if I'm supposed to
be here, you know, Sam, I think I'm just gonna
gonna scoot out here is like, no, no, no no, you know, Chris,
we have a lot of you know, there were about
fifteen that people there. He's like, one of our people
is getting an award, and I think it would be
great if you were here for that. And I said,

(02:43):
all right, great, you know, I'm a team guy. I
want to I want to see who this is. And
it wasn't until this moment where they started to give
out this Values of the Game award, and Deputy Commissioner
in the NBA Mark Tatum is there and and Adam
Silver's on the stage and and they start talking about
the award and they go this person, uh, you know,
it hasn't let a disability stop him. And my first
thought is I'm looking around the room going, Wow, there's

(03:05):
somebody else here with a disability, and I wonder who
it is. I'd like to meet this person, and then
all of a sudden, I see my name and and
my face goes up on the screen and I and
I just I welled up. I couldn't believe. And I
turned to sam Us and I said, you sandbagged me here,
you know, all of a sudden, it was like, you know,
uh kaiser, so say, which has palmin Arry? All of

(03:28):
a sudden he starts to put it all together of
what had been going on and all these people who
had conspired to get me here, And then my my
next thought was where is Laura, my wife? Where is
my son Christopher? Where's Capper Tim Capstraw? And then they
announced that they were all in the room, and they
came up onto the stage to join me in getting

(03:51):
the award, and I was blown away, blown away by it.
So I wanted to take this moment to thank the NBA,
to thank everybody at my NBA family and the Nets
for putting it together. Our marketing team led by Andrew Carson,
and our PR team Rachel Lewis, Mandy Gutman, who was

(04:13):
who was not with the Nets anymore but at the
time put this all together. Our content crew and Charlie
Widows and his group of video, guys who who unbeknownst
to me, we're making this video while we were on
the road that week interviewing Tim cap Straw who was
featured in the video, Tony Eaton, Jason Angoy were on
the road to film that and my guy Josh ni

(04:35):
who put it all together. Is beautiful piece that they
actually showed at the event. Thank you to everybody who
was involved, Mary Beth and r Hr, Mary Beth Kinnard
who later on, I've seen all these emails that were
being sent around, um and all this was going on
for like a week, and I had no idea about it.
Aaron Harris, our pr director, knew about it as well.

(04:55):
And I just want to thank everybody for not only
doing it all and keeping it a secret, because a
few times in life when you're generalely surprised and shocked
and honored at something, and that's what this all was. UM.
The thing about it for me, more so than getting
an award, is the recognition. You know, when you live
with a disability, it can be lonely and difficult, and

(05:22):
you know the rigors of the job over thirty years
and representing the nets and and putting together the radio
broadcasts and being the radio voice of the Nets. It
has its challenges for anyone, especially for someone with a disability,
and I've always wanted to just put my head down,
do my job to the best I can and hopefully
then good things come. A bit like you're an example

(05:44):
for people, and you're you know, people out there in
the f s h D community and the disabled community
or anyone going through challenges sees you as an example
of how they can live out their dreams. But it
takes a village, it takes help from so many people.
And what I was glad, what I really am honored
by with this reward is that it's a recognition that

(06:05):
you are seen, that you're seen for what you do,
and not just me, but the people in my life
who see me at my most vulnerable, who are with
me in the trenches every single day, especially my wife
Lord to be up there on the stage with me
and my son Christopher, who you know, has has had
to do things for me and see things that I

(06:26):
have to go through. They never you never want your
kids to have to do that, but he does it.
And then when I'm on the road and when I'm
at work, what tim Capstraw does for me for over
two decades. I was just honored that they were on
the stage with me, and it's just a message. You know,
twelve year old me would be ecstatic about what I

(06:46):
have been able to do and live out the dreams
that was it. You know, I've done it, But the
way I had to get there was a little more
challenging than I ever thought. And I think that's important
for people to realize that you're going to go through
tough times in your life. You're going to go through challenges,
but keep your eye on what it is that you

(07:08):
want to do, be a good person to people along
the way, and you will have the help you need
to get there. And that's what I feel is the
values of the Game award and what it represents and
why I'm honored to receive it, and I'm moderned and
I accepted on behalf of everybody in in my life

(07:29):
who helps me, and and the people with f s
h D and the work we're trying to do with
the Chris Garrino Foundation for U s h D. So
that is my kind of acceptance speech, which leads us
into our guest today, who was able to give some
acceptance speeches and some awards for his movie Judas and
the Black Messiah. It was nominated for an Academy Award.

(07:54):
Shaka King was also nominated for his work as director
at I was so excited to have him on this
podcast because I am a I'm a movie nerd, and
we're gonna talk a lot about his movie. We're gonna
talk about filmmaking in general, movies, his influences, his career.

(08:16):
A bed Style native still lives in the neighborhood, a
Brooklyn Nets season ticket holder. I'm gonna find out what
he thought originally of the idea of Barkley Center being
constructed there in Brooklyn, and uh and and how a
Nick fan converted to be a Net fan. All that

(08:41):
coming up with Shaka King right here on the Voice
of the Nets. Academy Award nominated director Shaka King coming
to us from his home in bed Stuy, Brooklyn, where
he was born and raised, part of the ten creators

(09:01):
revolving around the tenth anniversary of Barkley Center. It's so
great to talk to your SHACKA. Thank you so much
for doing this. My pleasure, my pleasure. Um, I'm gonna
geek out with you about Judas and the Black Messile
a little later on some film stuff. I'm gonna nerd
out because that's what I do and I love that stuff. Uh,
just though I want to, I want to get into
your background in Brooklyn and and Barkley Center and the

(09:24):
tenth anniversary, uh a part of the Creators series. It's
gotta be something that you look back on nostalgically and say, Man,
I'm a kid from bed Sty growing up in Brooklyn,
and now here's this arena that's been here ten years,
and they're gonna honor me as one of the ten creators.

(09:45):
I mean, you're can knowing your connection to Brooklyn. That's
got to be a great honor for you. It is.
It's I've had a very complicated relationship with the Bok
that's in Buckway Center. Yeah. Like I guess when the
arena was going up, you weren't necessarily on board. No,
definitely not um. And I also, you know, grew up

(10:07):
a Nick fan. UM, so you know people were you
know I was, I was. I was a Knick fan
actually until you know they led Shaws okay out of
MSG and handcuffs and then at that point I was
without a team for a bit, um, and then you know,
I went to some NETS games, uh and that was

(10:31):
you know that like Din Witty, you know, Carris Lavery,
uh Jaed Island team. Um, I really run that team
real D'Angelo Russ. But before I think d' angelo Uss,
that's right dealer was there. Then Yeah, I really I
really enjoyed. I liked I liked how they just like
they felt like a team, you know. And I'd also

(10:52):
you know before that, because I you know, I had
had friends of that businesses that got affected by the
stadium in build. You know, they lost their to relocate,
They lose them there to relocate, and you know, just
traffic between bed Sty and Fourth Green was gonna be
a whole another ball wax. And you know I knew

(11:14):
that just you know, it was gonna accelerate even further
the gentrification that was already taken place in the best starts.
I was really against it. Um. But then I remember
the first event I went to there was Bernana Hopkins fight,
and I remember going inside there and I just saw

(11:35):
so many people from so many different experiences I've had
in Brooklyn. I saw people as from my childhood to
saw people from my neighborhood. I saw people from high
school and I was like, this is I've never I've
been in the garden many times. I've never run an
at the garden, you know. Um, and it just felt

(11:56):
like like Brooklyn was really in there. And you know,
subsequently I went to a few more things. I think
like a Kanye Told the Kanye Told or something, and
it's just the same experience and like and so I
you know, eventually I remember after, um, I think after

(12:21):
I think it was after it was clear that they
were going to like read jigger things the nets. We're
gonna read jigger things, you know, roster wise and bring
in some big free agents. Something told me. It was
me and my man Joe shut up a man Joe Vladika,
who uh is the reason that I have season tickets now? Um.

(12:41):
You know we were like we went to film school together.
This is my friend was and he's a director as well. Um,
and you know we were just like, I don't know,
I feel like they're gonna get somebody big. You know,
they're probably gonna get somebody big. And when they do
get somebody big, it's probably gonna be like way more
money to get to get season tickets, you know, so

(13:04):
it's it just felt like a good investment. And we
went there and we took a tour, and you know,
we were thinking like because we have really we get
we have like amazing seats. He and I um that
it's like relatively cheap compared to like the seat next
to us, and it's like we've got it's like the

(13:25):
I guess it's technically considered the first row. It's the
first row that's not court side, so it's like in
the in the permanent seats kind of thing, folding chairs.
But what's great is that we're across the um the
opposing team's bench on the other side, and but we

(13:47):
have the whole like in front of us. There's no
there's just like a path a pathway. So we have
crazy leg room, right, crazy leg room, which you know
it is hard to come by in any right, yeah,
about six six three yeah. And and then because we're
not we're not at half court, we're like a little
bit to the right a half court like a half court.

(14:08):
It's like two or three times that we pay. You know,
the guys I know in sales will tell you that's
a that's a great value seat. We had just to say,
like the guys in the first rower paying Yeah, any
state there thousands and thousand dollars, you just go couple
of rows back. It's like the price, so yeah, it's

(14:29):
a great value, great sea, that's a great see. And
then you know they went got k D and we
we were proving right, and it's been an interesting right
but you had apple stock exactly. All my friends when
that trade happened, when they had my phone blue blow up,
they're like, you didn't you were right all the ship.
And it's funny because I always felt that if that

(14:52):
team that you described earlier, um, with Carris and Jared
and those guys, I mean, eventually those pieces were used
to to be where they are now. Um, but people
really fell in love with that team. I always thought
if if that was the kind of team that it
started in Brooklyn when they first got there, you know,

(15:13):
the team that started in Brooklyn, it kind of underachieved
a little bit, Darren Williams. You know, they never really
they never really reached the level where they should And
always felt like if it was that that de Lo
team that wasn't necessarily a championship team, it was gonna
change they're gonna have to be made. But boy, people
love the way they showed up every night. And that's

(15:33):
really what what it's like to get people into that
building in Brooklyn. They want a team that's shone up
every night. Yeah what do you think? Yeah? What about
it when you see when when your your chances of
now being their courtside of watching Kevin Durant, watching Kyrie Irving,
Um and this group, the way they've kind of come
together this year now. I mean, as we're recording this,

(15:55):
unfortunately Kevin just went down with an injury and we
hope it's not going to keep him out a long time.
But Um and everything. You know, it's got to feel
good for a season to take it older. You get
a really good show every night, and it's a really
fun team to watch right now. I prayed for this,
uh this season. You know, it was rough the last
couple of seasons, just because you want to see a

(16:16):
competitive game. You know, I love the game, so like
I'm going just to watch. You know, I never imagined
being able to have that vantage point of watching professional basketball,
Like I just never envisioned that for myself, and to
be able to do that, it changes everything and I
mean I I was a person who I am a

(16:38):
person who watches the game on TV all the time.
You know, so when you can see it, you know,
from those dimensions, it's amazing. And when guys enjoying playing
and guys are like really enjoying playing and really talented,
there's nothing like it. It's just like crazy improvisation and

(17:01):
you know, synchronicity and all these things. Its just it
really is a true art form. Yeah, And I feel
like all artists want to be athletes. Athletes want to
be artists a lot of times. I know you grew
up and you know, you say being able to sit
there courtside watching games. Maybe thinking back as a kid,

(17:23):
would you ever have that opportunity, especially in Brooklyn as
you're growing up in bed Sty. I know your parents
were artistic, Um, you grew up in that environment too.
What was your what was the thing that made you
fall in love though? With the game? In basketball? It
was just around me my whole life. You know, my

(17:44):
friends on my block, we're really good and they played
all the time, and we played all the time. That
was just the game we played that in football, but
basketball most something that we used to play. We used
to get like the recycling cans, Like I remember when
we got you know, when New York City started cycling,
and we just would take the blue cans and we'd
hang them on a fence and we get the little

(18:06):
mini balls you get a great adventure and we would
just be playing on those like all for like six hours.
Man didn't even this is like free, you know, this
is like when we kind of played on the block
more we start we graduated to the park a little
bit later. This is like really really playing just like

(18:27):
on garbage cans. You know, um well you know the
door hanger you know not sorry, did not the door hanger,
the door the door hinge, you know with the bolt
up sock, you know what I mean? Like that that
was like we just grew up around it. It was
a you know, just like the street activity. Who was
your guy? Like you were? You probably were Nick fan

(18:49):
as a kid? Young? Who was your guy? My favorite
player growing up? Just crazy? I was a Nick fan,
But my favorite player growing up was freshly build, Like
how did that not seem? My guess? It couldn't even
be real? How could that be? Because because he was
so he was so brave. I just loved how brave

(19:09):
he was. He did not have any fear that that
was a scary team. He had no fair of them,
has such respect for that as such. I just loved it.
I loved and I love top clutch he was. Yeah. Well,
I mean one of the most things, the most touch
things that ever happened, one of the most clutch things

(19:30):
that ever happened in basketball court is what he did
to the Knicks in that one game. Incredible. I mean
I was watching it a lot with my dad in
my own and my aunt saying, like making fun of
me because you know, he was about to lose. I was.
I really was a big fan of guy. Even that
was the only for the nixt except when they played
Reggie Wow. Because I loved how he just he was crazy.

(19:52):
And then he said Mark Jackson on that team, who
had been a nick too, you know, and uh speaking
of Brooklyn guys. And so so you're you're kind of
like you're a kid, You've got you've got the artist parents,
you've got the love of sports, and you start playing.
What did you think was what was your dream? What

(20:12):
was your dream as a kid? Um, I wanted to
be basketball player? There you go that was I wouldn't.
I mean, that's until I saw Hope Dreams and then
I realized I wasn't gonna make it because they were
better than me and they didn't make it. And they
didn't make it, uh, and I didn't. It's not like
that movie. But you know, not like I said that.
When I was said, oh, I'm gonna make movies. It

(20:32):
was more so like you know, my I think it was.
I grew up loving movies, watching them with my mom.
You know, that was like our activity and my only child,
so I was very very close to both my parents
and you know, my mom and I would just watch
rent movies and watched them on during the weekend. That
was like why you being activity? You know, sometimes watched
two back to back. Um. And she also, you know,

(20:56):
she she wrote a play that my I had later
produced and they did that for years and I worked
backstage with them. Uh that was you know, my job, um,
and I was around it a lot. You know, both educators,
they're both teachers, but you know they this was also
something they pursued, and UM, I think you know, I

(21:18):
didn't enjoy that when I was doing it. I wanted
to be playing basketball, but you know, I think it
just led to me kind of finding a love of
just writing short stories, you know. Um that that all
kind of happened around the same time he worked in
backstage to play discovering that I really liked writing short stories. Um.

(21:42):
And you know, just one thing led to another was basketball.
The thing that led you to poly Prep. No, what
was that? That the thinking behind going there. My my
parents were public school teachers and they were like, this
is this, this is not working. Um. And I took

(22:03):
the test to get in the stops in Brown Science
in Brooklyn Tech. But they weren't crazy about Brooklyn Tech.
And I didn't get in the stove sent bron Science
was too far. So it was like all right. They
were just like we're gonna My dad took on like
three extra jobs, someone to look on an additional extra job,

(22:23):
and they just like worked crazy hard to send me
to a private school in Brooklyn. And you know they
I looked at Packer, I looked at another place I
don't remember, maybe Saint Ann's, and I looked at Polly
Pepp and Polly Prep that ducks and turtles in a
football field. If people don't know, because there might be
some people listening right now. Don't really know Brooklyn that well,

(22:44):
but like bed Sty is all the way on one
side and Polly Prep is all the way out by
the Arizonto Bridge. But it looks like in college. I mean,
it looks like a college campus. And it's yeah, it's
it's high end kind of stuff and you gotta be
smart and you gotta chacker fights. Your parents have to
sacrifice to send you there. Um. But culturally it's a

(23:06):
they're much different place than where you came from. Complete
was that a culture shock? Had had it had that
influence maybe you know what what came afterwards for you?
Oh and in so many ways, Um, you know, it
was a culture shock. So you know, bed Stuy at
the time when I was going up was a black neighborhood,

(23:27):
not even predominantly. It was a black neighborhood. Like there
was one white person on my block who was like
really unique cat uh. He was here I think from
like the eighties. But that was the only white person
I saw in bed Style. Um, I don't even think
I really remember seeing white people working in bed Sty. Um.

(23:49):
And then bay Ridge, where I went to high school, um,
was predominantly I'd say, like Italian, Greek, Um, Irish. Let's
say Jewish working working class, working class, beverage is working class.
But then you go to Polly and it's like there's

(24:12):
some kids who were there, you know, who's like parents
like have I have like good good jobs, you know, doctor, dentists,
you know, lawyer. Then there's some kids who's like parents
own own like an oil company, you know, or like
own like you know, a thousand properties, you know. And

(24:36):
I think like bon Jovi's kids weren't there stuff like that, Yeah, yeah, um.
And I think and I also think that the demographic
has changed over the years, um, because when I would
was there, you know, I think that by buying large
like the like white kids who were there, their parants

(25:00):
were not uh they weren't from America or they're great
or their grandparents didn't you know. I mean like it
was like some kind of immigration going on, like Irish,
like I said, Irish, Greek, Russian, Italian, Um. And I
think that that's change of these I think it's gotten
like more like the sort of uh kind of Manhattan

(25:22):
lead prep school, so to give you more of a
broader sense of what was out in the world, going
to poly prep like where did you feel like you're
still were kind of insulated and not how did affect
your world view? It was weird because it was just
like another small community in a way, you know what
I mean. I didn't. I don't think my worldview really

(25:42):
got expanded at Polly. I mean maybe maybe more so
than some of you know, some of the kids I
went I grew up with. You know, um you know
I got to see I mean, I guess my worldview
grew in the sense of like I got to see
like what wealth looked like, you on what just like
like I got to understand what class looked like, and

(26:05):
you know, without even like getting a sort of real
understanding of like the ways of racing class in America work,
just by now being you know one of you know,
I don't know, like when I was in fifth grade,
maybe one of four black kids in my year, which
was a lot for that school, a lot of class.

(26:25):
You know, a lot of kids I knew had like
were one or two only one of two black kids
in their in their class um class like thirty something
like that. Um So, yeah, my worldview was expanded in
that way. I would say, Well, in fact, I know
it was just because I know, like I had experiences
in junior high in high school that a lot of

(26:49):
black kids I'm in college didn't have until college, and
it really rattled them. And it was just like this
is just Tuesday, like you know, like I mean things
I saw going up with, like crazy you're writing and stuff.
Did it did you start to really take off when

(27:11):
you're in high school? Where did it? Where do you
feel like you started to really find your voice as
a writer? High school? High school? High school? Yeah? So
that experience, then that propels you to n y U. Right,
But I want to So I started, I started making
films a vassater, Okay, and then that led you to
n y U Film School. Correct. I saw I started

(27:33):
making films a vassater my junior year and um, my
senior year, and do I wanted to do it full time? Um?
But I didn't know how you do that. So I
signed up for a screenwriting course after I graduated at
this place called Frederick Douglass Creative our Center run about

(27:54):
this guy named Fred Hudson, in fact, Rody Blank who
wrote the full and directed and started in the four
year old version. She was in that class with me.
One of those classes, UM, and you know, learned the
basics of screenwriting, wrote some screenplays. UM. I was working
as an educator like after school programs, you know, like

(28:20):
teaching the theater workshops to high school kids here and there. UM. Simultaneously,
you know, I bought a bole film camera, like taught
myself how to use it. That was really stupid. But
because it's just like no one uses it, no one
was using it then, you know, it was so expensive.
It was stupid. I should have just gotten you know,

(28:42):
it's not as good, not as good an investment as
your no. No. I shot one music video on it,
um and at some festivals and just was kind of
like waiting, just like, Okay, I've written screenplays, I've made
a short after films, after aigh school I mayven I
ended up making another short. It was just like how

(29:03):
do I get to the feature on stage? And you know,
and I remember I was at this thing called the
i FP Market that used to exist, UM and they
had like the screenwriting competitions that I was taking part in,
and I met this guy set Man, who's a you know,
incredibly well known director, really great director, UM, and he

(29:26):
just like was winning all of them like getting everything.
And I went up to and I was like, yo,
apparently you really like you know what what you're doing,
Like where'd you learn how to do this? And he
was like, I went to n y u uh. And
I was like, what do you do You think it's
a good investment? Like do you think I should you know,
consider going there? He was like yeah, and uh so,
I you know, applied and and that's I ended up

(29:50):
there like seven years after I graduated, six days after
I graduated from college. Okay, Yeah. It's it's funny because
you know, you think you you end up making you know,
your second feature film is an Academy Award nominated film,
and people would think, wow, here's a guy who just
stepped in it, you know, like all of a sudden,

(30:11):
you're just you're so young and you get it. But
it's you were like a you're overnight success story was
like twenty years in the making. I looked at the
other day. I was at downstairs and my mom's you know,
and I was looking at this, like award of mine.
She had a from my first documentary I made and
it was twenty twenty two years ago, and I was like,

(30:31):
that's crazy. I was doing that that long. You know
who did you know? Did you? Is? Was Spike Lee
teaching an n y U film schools, So did you
did you? Did you meet him at that time? Definitely? Yeah,
he was my teachers and here the teachers. That was
the first time you met him? The first moment, Hum
was actually um, when I was applying. My friend Randy

(30:53):
Wilkins was teach, was one of his students there who
directed that document this parent um he um. He introduced
me this like, uh, did you bond about the Knicks
when you first met him? There wasn't really anything for that.
I would imagine. I'd imagine that he was said he

(31:15):
was a great influence on you, being definitely a broken
guy being your teacher. Um, what was that experience like
of learning from him at n y U. It's incredible.
I mean when the Levies, well, the sequel to when
the Levees Broke was shooting when this is it's called
If God Is Woman in the Creek Our Eyes? Um,

(31:35):
it was shooting my junior year and he allowed a
number of us to go down there and work on
that film with him. Um during break and you know
put us up in an amazing hotel. You know, I
feel like we even had for d M like he
like really really treated us, you know, like film and professionals,

(32:01):
you know what I mean, like any and he just
he also would just his curriculum like he was. He
was really just generous with his knowledge. He would give
you notes from films that he directed in the past
that he you know, xerox. He he just would give you.
He would just give you real resources. And you know, um,

(32:23):
he would always bring in guest lecturers, you know, Clive Owen,
you know, Seohn Singleton, um to just like you know,
talk with us about the experience. And he would just
interview them like telling us, tell them about this, tell
him about this. It's an incredible class. It's one of
the it's such an amazing class that he teach us.

(32:45):
I compared. I went to afford him and I learned
played by play from Marty Clickman, who was a legendary
sports caaster from Brooklyn. Had an incredible story and remember
kind of being like a guy that it. You know,
I was into communications and I love sports, but it
was until I heard already talk about it and in

(33:07):
a way that was very much like here's the here's
the here's the blueprint to how you do play by
play and then realizing that my skill set fit into that,
and I'm like, all right, I don't know. I thought
I knew what this is. Now I don't I break
it all down. I'm gonna listen to this man and
I knew that that's what I was gonna do. And
I made a third of year career in it. Um.

(33:27):
It was that a similar experience that Spike or you know,
did did you think you knew what filmmaking was about?
And then you get to n Yu did it? Did
it change? I was just curious to see, like, what
was kind of your moment where you said you went
for nothing? I knew nothing. I want to end why
you Relatively speaking, I knew absolutely nothing. I mean I still, honestly,

(33:48):
I still go. I still go about this thing going
I know nothing. You know, I nevern't toasted the syndrome
right now. I don't know. It's not even I really don't.
I really there's so much, there's so much to learn. Yeah,
when making this, so much to learn. I don't know anything, honestly,
I've learned, relatively speaking, and I made two movies, you know,

(34:10):
you know you knows how been small an amount of
films that is to have made you know, um, and
you said before, are very high with your second film, Spike, Spike,
Spike makes like two movies. That was the time he
was averaging two movies a year. Yeah, you're very prolific.
He's still I mean, like, come on, so you feel
like you're not even I might even do We're not

(34:31):
even the same profession with I mean this, you know,
but your modesty, you have modesty. You've obviously you've done it,
like so I guess I mean, was that your ultimate
goal to get where you were there? You know, however
many years later doing a film like like You're Just
in the Black Machine, Yeah, I mean that was the
goal of of of that film. You know, every goal,

(34:52):
every film. Why, there is a different experience. It's a
different you know, you show up a different person when
you make it. You have the because it's making for him,
you know, for me at least, UM takes some time,
you know, at first, at first of all, it takes
some time to decide whether you want to go through
with all of that right and commit to it. Um
and you know, it's just a several yearlong process. And

(35:15):
during that time, like other things happen in your life
that affect the art and you know, the artifacts those things,
and you know, you, like I said, you're just it's
it's so intimate at least I think for me, Like
I think it's different when you get hired to direct something,
but when you just when you're the one who's like, hey,

(35:37):
I want to make this thing, and then you like
start seeing it and you start trying to help peep,
you help you know, find the people that will help
you make it. It's you know, it takes a long time,
and it's so magical. Honestly, it's it's so it's something

(35:58):
that is really like you know, probably like farming, you know,
or growing things out of the ground. I mean, it
really is like a it's just I can't you know,
I'm I'm struggling to find the words for it so
that it like it changes you and the thing changes,
and you know, I'm almost like forgot the question. Do

(36:19):
you have interest in in in doing in directing other
people's screenplays or or you short of just the kind
of artist I want to write it and direct it
and create it from the ground up. I think, um,
even if I if I can't imagine getting a screenplay
that just I wanted to make, you know, I feel

(36:40):
like I would have to get in there, and you know,
the first step for me is putting words on the page. Um.
And so eventually I think I would end up go
getting in there and changing the words that were already
on the page to a degree. Um. I don't think
I'm opposed to necessarily to developing a screenplay based off

(37:02):
of existing Swiss material, whether that be a book or
you know, play that that. I think it's a good
jumping off point because one of the reasons I like
collaborating with other writers is because I like to have
some works on the page that I can then kind
of reshape and tear down and rebuild. And you know,
there's it's nothing more daunting than a blank page, you know,

(37:26):
like I'd rather have something on the page that I
can then fiddle with. They would say you should just
kind of like there really shouldn't be writer's mock. You
should just keep You should just put things on the
page but they don't make sense and then you can
change it, you know, exactly exactly. It's true, Like I
just am such a h I kind of have to

(37:47):
see things. I have to see one thing, one door
closed before I opened another door. In terms of how
I write, so that I can't just put any bullshit
on the page, you know what I mean, It just
doesn't that. But sometimes the process of getting in motion
kind of stirs you. Oh, I know, but I need
someone else to put bullshit on it. And then I can,

(38:10):
I can, you know, I can go to work while
we while we're going, we're kind of hooking into that
this path. It was just this was something that that
I thought about, Um, and know one I was going
to talk to you. I want to rewatch Judas in
The Black Messiah again. I love the film. I saw
him when it came out, and I want to rewatch it.
And there was something And I'm going to nerd out
now on on movie making. Hopefully people are interested in this.

(38:31):
But it goes to what you talk about being the
writer and the director. And I'm curious too to see
the connection. So when we first see Bill O'Neill in
the in the film, right, he's the Judas character. Um,
he's in that that pool room. And you know, I
don't I don't want to give anything that people. I
haven't seen it, but um, he gets headbutted, right, and

(38:54):
then he he opens up a wound obviously, and then
you go next scene, he's in the car, I know us.
There's some drops of blood and you see some blood
on his on his sleeve, you see it on the
I think the gearshift. And then when he's being interrogated
right the next scene, he's being interrogated in the FBI,
and the wound is just staring at you, and I'm going,
you know, even my mind, I'm going, yeah, like, can't

(39:17):
we just get a can a guy give him a towel?
Can't we clean that? No? But the wound throughout the
whole conversation, the wound is just it's an open wound
that's staring at with that blood dripping. And now you
cut to the next scene and he's got you identify
the character now in the room the classroom there with

(39:37):
the black panthers because he's got a bandage over the eye.
And then the next scene he's giving up flyers on
the street and the wound is healed. So that that
whole thing took you through. It's maybe I don't know
a couple of minutes, but it kind of brings you
through the whole timeline and and accentuates how long now

(39:58):
he has gone for him this whole the character in
that situation. Is that something that's on the page like that,
Where is that to me? As a director you do?
Or is that something because you're married as the writer
and the director you put that technique altogether. That's a
great question, um, And I'm trying to remember if it

(40:22):
started on the page, if it ended. I mean I
think that it was definitely later that we kind of
came to. So what to start with. One thing that's
funny is that you thought that the head but is
the reason he has the wound? No, No, this was
really funny. We always made that wound heavy because we

(40:47):
wanted it to seem like when he got interrogated, the
the cops beat the ship out of him. Okay, I
can see I can see that too, and and that,
and that's a lot of the theme of the film.
But it was one of those things that happens completely
all screen. It's completely all screen, but it's like in
my mind, I go, oh, well, you know, they beat

(41:08):
him up, and so he's he's really beaten. And then
the FBI comes in and they don't beat up. They're
not you know, he's he's interacting with him in a
way that's different in his mind than the cops who
just treated him a certain way. And I got that
from the interview with O'Neill, but the real oil from
Eyes on the Prize where he talks a little bit

(41:28):
about his experience in his mind that with how he
interacted with the you know, Chicago p D versus how
he first interacted with Agent Mitchell, which is how he
got seduced. So he was he was roughly treated by
the cops, but the FBI was kind of like it
he felt now like they were well he just he

(41:49):
just it wasn't even that he said there wasn't even
so much that he se was roughly treated by the cops,
But the way that he talked about the police growing
up as a kid, it was different from the way
that he felt like how agent Mitchell treat at him
specifically UM. And I thought that that was something that
that was something that informed just how we meet Mitchell

(42:11):
and the place that O'Neil is that emotionally when he
meets Mitchell UM and how we you know, shot their interaction, etcetera.
But anyway to answer your initial question, UM, I can't
tell you if that was on the page, probably not
to the degree that that we you know, we carried
that for a bit, right, Like when he's handing out papers,

(42:31):
that's like it's like you you just you just gave
the journey of the wound, right, And I think that
that was probably something more so that myself my production design.
As we start building that sequence, probably we're like, oh,
and then we can do this. And you know, that's
why I love to like so much now is UM
You know, streaming and and shows have become uh, seasons long.

(42:55):
I still love a good movie that tells a story
in two two and a half hours and you have
to use those techniques to show time passing. And yet
at the same time, UM, show how the roots are
are starting to sprout, and you take a minute to
do it rather than an hour long episode to do it. Yeah.

(43:17):
Are you are you looking to do UM another film
or would you do other series? What do you have
kind of cooking right now? Right right now, I'm producing
some TV UM for FX primarily that's myself and my
partner Brandon has at our first look. But but I

(43:38):
I'm gearing him to make another movie. I'm working on
another movie. UM. That's that's you know, that's the next
thing I did. You know, I had this other question now,
and I want to go back to Judas for a second.
How did you want the audience to perceive the character
of Bill O'Neil, who plays the You know, the movie

(43:59):
is obviously about Fred and it's about the you know,
has that aspect of the Black Panthers, But I really
still feel that the heart it was about Bill O'Neil
and his journey. UM. What how did you want the
the audience to perceive him? Um? With complexity? Ultimately? You know, UM,

(44:23):
you know, to me the movie, his character and the
reason we structured his character that we would do because
we wanted to show kind of the dangers of UM
really like being completely a political UM. And you know,

(44:43):
I think that I don't want to say a moral
because I don't think that those are the same thing.
But I do think that, you know, it can be
a really slippery slope if you don't kind of have
some sort of ground moves for yourself, you know, just
something that you believe in principles, you know, Like I

(45:07):
think when you don't have any when you're only you know,
when you're only motivated by And it's tricky, right because
you know, that's the thing that I think a TV
series can do a better job of than the movie
is contextualizing. You know, I think we did an okay job.
You know, I think we would have needed more time too,

(45:30):
and we you know, I wish you could have made
a three hour movies. Yeah, exactly, you know, um, but
I think a little bit of context as to how
in the division, you know, what social circumstances could lead
to somebody kind of you know, when they're asked like,

(45:55):
you know, how do you feel about Malcolm X's assassination
to give to answer like, you know, didn't really didn't
really bother me, Like why, how how a young black
man in nineteen sixty eight could come to that conclusion?
Because because I think, I think that that's a unique individual, right,
Like you gotta have gone through certain things in your

(46:16):
life for you to have that. Because everybody loved Malcolm,
I don't. I almost took it when I'm watching that
he didn't know how to because it's because of where
the question was coming from. He didn't really know if
he could give a real answer. But that's what But
that's why he that's why. That's the thing. I like,
you know, everyone reads a scene differently, but that's why
Mitchell says, not you could you could be honest. No,

(46:39):
it's not even I'm sorry. The first one he asks Martin,
he says Martin and he says and he says, you know,
I don't know he lies, you know. And then Mitchell goes,
you can be honest and he says okay, like yeah,
and then Malcolm makes he generally he's now been disoned, right,
like the guys like you can all the truth things

(47:00):
like yeah, I was a little upset. Soone he gets
asked about malcolme like then it's like, you know, you
could be honest, and he's being honest when he says, like,
I don't really think about it, you know, I really
instead I should put on That was Lekeith Stanfield, the
actor who played Bill O'Neal in the movie, who was
nominated as well. I mean because because um Daniel Kaloya

(47:24):
he won, he won, He ends up winning the Oscar
and I think he was he was he and then
it was um Keith was also nominated right for that, Yeah,
how about I thought they're they're both their performances were outstanding.
How did you What is that like for a director?

(47:46):
How is your relationship with an actor and then seeing
two of your actors get nominated along with you for
the Academy Award? Is it like you've kind of like
do you do you sharing that? Because it is there
is that the relationship between an actor and a director
is it's so closure to depend on the actor as
to how closely he wants you involved in his performance.

(48:11):
I mean, and I can only speak to this movie
and my experiences with you know, but you know my
first movie, which is like super tied to like at
the hip, you know, like the two of you, you know,
and a lot of other people, but but the two
of you, you know, early on just we're trying to

(48:34):
like envision what this thing might look like, you know,
and by the time you've gone through the process of
putting that thing on its feet, refining it in the edit,
screening it, seeing how people react to it, and then
people really look connect to it. You know, it's like
it's like, um, I always think of directing as like,

(49:01):
you know, it's there's a there's a point guard to
the sports amount. For I think there's a point guard
aspect of it that I think everyone can kind of
understand and sort of more so than more so than
like a coach and a player. They think, but no,
that's what I think people will say, put coach. I
think people say point guard. But I think that for

(49:21):
me it's also GM because so much of directing for
me as casting and finding the right I mean, that's
like that is really really so under sold as like
it's such a major part of it and not just
casting your your actors, but like your collaborater, other collaborators.

(49:42):
That building that team is such a big part of
directing and you know you pick the right person. It's everything,
it means, it's everything. Did you watch the movie the
show the offer on Paramount, the one about the making

(50:03):
of the Godfather, and it's it's fascinating to see the
the battles that Francis Ford Coppola and and uh Ruddy
the producer went through to try and make sure that
they had the actors, the the DP like everybody that
that the studio wanted this guy or that guy, and

(50:23):
they just had to stick to their beliefs and fight
and make little trade offs, but at the same time,
you know, keep because you know transis Ford. Coppola just
felt like we came this movie at Alpaccino, and Alpacino
is an unknown guy, you know, and he was completely right, right.
You gotta trust that vision, like you said, you know,
Seawan Mark's vision. You know, net ownership has got all right, Sean.

(50:46):
We trust you to go out and do your thing
and here's the here's the list that kind of that
you want to do. Definitely, Yeah, did uh? You mentioned
you're doing some other stuff. It be and your other
like your influencer talking about Spike Lee. Who are some

(51:06):
of the other people that you that you have have
been influenced in your career? S Matt Sine La Matte,
Scorse Czy Park, Shan Wook bombs you and Ho. You
mentioned Sidney the Matt right away. What is it about

(51:26):
Sidney La Matte that draws you to his films? I
just love he has a lot of movies. I love.
They just said I am sin Joey um key man.
It's so tough. I don't know if I can pick one.

(51:46):
You know, network is pretty up there, um, but you
know so Serpico Um got day afternoon known as of course,
you know, yeah, which is right over and uh I
drive by there all the time, going to the arena
over I think it's like seventeen, haven't you over there?

(52:10):
Like by it used to be old bishop Ford High
School was over there. It was right across the the
parkway where they did that round in the corner. I
didn't realize that. You realize that, realized that, realize that
that's where they That's where they did it, that whole
outdoor outside the bank and Attica and Attica. Yeah, so
you drawn to like you're drawn to like New York
stories too, and I love a lot. I mean that's

(52:31):
like I love I love old New York movies. You know,
King of New York is one of my favorite movies.
I haven't um you know, I mean, I love old
New York movies in general. I like, I like like
a lot of old gangster movies. You know, when movies

(52:53):
movies old I love. I love you know, paul By
just like Scrappy. That stuff is fun to me. Yeah.
But I think for me influences to the change project,
the project and like you know, the new thing I'm
working on, I'm finding just the weirdest sort of new

(53:19):
influences and things that I'm you know, John, is that
I wasn't necessarily interested in that. I'm now you know,
find myself drawn too, So I think it just hopefully
it keeps, you know, drawing and shifting. You know. I
look for as a you know, I was telling you
about that scene before that I love from from Judas
and I'm you know, as a play by play guy,

(53:39):
I'm drawn to very you know, I'm like God, I
find I pride myself and really looking at details, you know,
because as a played by plagu guy, you're constantly describing things.
And in my business, there's a lot of times where
guys have signature calls. You know, Uh, John Sterling, it
is high, it is far. You know, we're bringing with
bang and you know they're all great and and people like,

(54:01):
what's your signature? I got? I don't know. I'm kind
of more of like the game is the thing for me,
and I just want to sort of be the guy
that describes the game to you. I know, like we've
brought up Spike, Like there's certain things that Spike does
in a movie where no one else does, and you
look at it and you know immediately this is a
spike movie. You know, Scorsese does a lot of the

(54:23):
same things. Do you have a view of like putting
signatures in your film murder? What's your what's your view
with that? You're kind of like what I was talking about,
kind of just I want to be in the background.
Yeah yeah, yeah, um, but do you mind it when
it's in there? No, from directors, not at all. Yeah,
that's their vision, right, that's kind of the way they

(54:45):
want to present the material to you. Yeah. I mean
I think sometimes it's like perfect, and sometimes you know,
you're like, that's it just is the thing is that
it is the signature their style. Yeah yeah, but sometimes
oh this is you know, this transcends just you the

(55:05):
way that you do it. It's it's it's becomes something else.
And I guess the style would just sort of your style,
and you've only done to full length feature films, your
style will sort of come out. Maybe you're not even
trying to do it. I think it. I think it
should change the movie to movie. Yeah. Well, you always
kind of follow the path of like your next project,

(55:27):
is it along the same the ideas you're trying to
present to the world. Is there always gonna be a
common theme to it. You think our story is just
gonna go from The story is different, different, It's totally
unlike anything I've done. We're not gonna break any news here, right,
you can't. You can't give us a little gonna tell

(55:48):
you anything other than I can't wait for it, unlike
anything I have done. I'm really excited about it. Then. Um,
I want to be I want to be. Uh, I
want to beg your time. Yeah, I really appreciate you
taking as much time as you have. Um. I want
to bring it back a little bit to you personally
and maybe Brooklyn as well. What is it that you

(56:10):
you've remained in Brooklyn? Um? You say you've liked how
Barkley's kind of represents you know, the Brooklyn you know,
maybe more than you thought it was going to. Um,
what is it that you still love about Brooklyn today?
Mm hmm. I mean it's it's hard to sort of

(56:30):
put in the boys. It's just it's my home, you know,
Like I mean, but you're not looking to go to
live in Hollywood, right, I mean you No, No, no,
not at all. I mean I live in I live
with my family here. Like people I'm not quite anywhere. Um,
but I could do l a January and much. I

(56:55):
used to do it a lot. I haven't done it
in a long time because I have like that family
what you say it, But um, yeah, I gotta admit,
like I get on the road with the nets sometimes,
like in the middle of winter, Like I was just
in Miami last weekend and it's like, wow, I could.
Yeah this is a nice litt I don't want to
live here, but this is like kind of I could.
I like standing out there with the sunlight hit a
brick up by hours. Yeah. Yeah, it's raining in l

(57:17):
A like crazy right now, and that lets me know that.
And Marge is gonna be green and it's gonna be
just be lush and beautiful. You know, what's your favorite
besides going to brook going to games of Barkley Center,
what's the favorite kind of a downtime activity you like
in Brooklyn? To a place you like to hang out,
place you like to visit. I stay at home most

(57:39):
so much, man, are you? Yeah? I'm a homebody? Man,
I am, honestly, Like I just go get a cup
of coffee and walk around the neighborhood, like you know,
go for a drive, like I'm really just not really
out there like that unfortunately. Well, but that's something that
you could do in Brooklyn that you can't do in
la Like you can go for a ride, but sometimes
you no, you can't. Well, Brookly was you know, my

(58:02):
favorite place to walk outside of the woods. You know,
do you get out in the woods and much I
tried to get up state or something, get up state,
just get an A, B and B a couple of days.
That's what I love about New York too, is that
you can escape within a couple of hours in either direction.

(58:22):
If you get to the beach, the woods, you know
you have it all. Yeah. Here's It's funny because I
didn't recognize how we had it until I went to
l A. And I did in l A because it
was like, you know, I don't I don't even know why,
but I think because it's like not two hours, it's
one hour away from the beach and one hour away

(58:43):
from the woods, you know, depending on where you are.
But um, but I was like, hey, it's only another
hour to get up state. I was like, why am
I not taking advantage of going up state more often?
And I started doing it and changed my life. Yeah, really,
and what way open you up creatively? Everywhere? It's just

(59:03):
you know, I we uh uh I can we set
up there? Really? We said quickly. Um, Like I said,
I'm a movie guy. I'm gonna a couple of things
I want to wrap up. I'm gonna steal from another podcast.

(59:23):
I love this uh podcast. You know, you know the
show Ted Lasso. Yeah, um, Brett Goldstein. You know he's
the uh, the guy who plays uh Roy Kent And
he's a comedian. He's one of the writers and the showrunners.
He's got a podcast called Films to Be Buried With
and he uh he interviews people, a lot of Londoners

(59:45):
and it'll just tries to tell their story through the
films that they love and things like that. So I'm
gonna I'm gonna outright steal a few of his questions,
just to get to know a little bit about you
through the movies you love. What was the first movie
you remember seeing. I want to say e T, think
of e T, think of c or Bamby. It's easier

(01:00:07):
Bamby one of the two. What's the movie that you
think has meant the most to you in your life?
M hmm. Wow, I think as much time because Malcolm X,
probably Denzel Washington. Yeah, I think that was probably meant
the most to me. I don't know if I've ever remember,

(01:00:30):
and I mean there have been a few examples, but
a character who embodied the role where you thought it
was him then he did in that movie. What's amazing
about that performance is that it's it's kind of remember
I think I was talking to Daniel about this when
we were working on it was Daniel, We're developing how

(01:00:53):
he was going to approach playing Chairman Fred, and I
think he broke down sort of two types of like
amazing acting that when it comes to biotics, and he
used Denzel and Malcolm X and Jamie fox and Ray
and Denzel is channeling and Jamie Foxes is, uh, what's

(01:01:17):
the word imitating And they're both insanely amazing performances. And
I mean maybe Jamie's also channeling too, you know, like
because that he went to a space that's crazy. But
we decided that he was gonna Daniel was going to,

(01:01:38):
you know, go to Denzel right channel, Yeah, she's gonna
channel because he doesn't, you know, Denzel doesn't look like
Malcolm in that movie doesn't sound like Malcolm in that movie.
But he's Malcolm. He's Malcolm fully, he's he's him. He's
him like he's channeling and it's insane. And Jamie is
such a great mimic though, because he does impression people exactly.

(01:02:01):
Jamie can do that with anybody. He just did it,
like to the to another level with right. Yeah, that
was like did you see the Elvis the new one?
I started unfinished and it's like, I feel like, now
it's like that guy is I couldn't. I can't know
if he's doing an Elvis impersonation or he's becoming Elvis,
because you see him. He just won the Golden Globe

(01:02:23):
last night as we speak, and he sounded like Elvis
on the stage getting out of the award. Um or
even like you said, did you I know you? Tom
Hanks in when he played Mr. Rogers didn't necessarily look
like him or but he kind of just like there's
an essence there about him. Um, what do he thinks?
The movie you've watched the most, like good Fellows, really

(01:02:46):
good Fellows that came out the same year as Godfather three,
and I feel like it changed and wow, but it
seemed like it changed the the genre. It did. It
definitely did. I mean, it's it changes a lot of things. Man,
So many movies are influenced by goodfellas that aren't even

(01:03:08):
gangster him. You know, just the way that that voiceover
plays the paste, the fun, the fun. It's the most
fun crime movie I've ever seen. In one of the
most fun movies ever. Quotable. It's so fun but also
terrifying in a fun way. Even that. That's the thing

(01:03:32):
about that movie that's crazy, is that, even that that's
like terrifying parts of the violence, it's still so fun.
You're never you're you know, like Grayleiota has a reaction
in that movie that he laughs so much in that
movie at depravity, he laughs. His reaction that depravity is
to laugh, and he has that and and his laugh

(01:03:55):
is amazing in that film. And that's how I feel
watching that movie. And that's how I almost wonder if
if that if that because he is your way in right,
I almost wonder if like that's part of the reason
why it's such a fun movie, because he's you know,
he's laughing, just cracking up, and then at the end
it gets insane. But he but I also feel like

(01:04:17):
you're talked about. He's the entry, right, He's the entry
way into that movie. But he's also the almost the
most self aware person, Like he he's recognizing some of
these things are ridiculous and scary and funny, but like
the other characters are kind of like, that's just they
don't care. That's just who they are, even because when

(01:04:37):
you talk about remember that they're sitting around the poker
table and they're gonna they're gonna whack Mari, Like DeNiro
is gonna whack more that night, and and and Riota.
Probably the hardest he laughs the whole night is when
they're sitting there and he got a ha and then
all of a sudden, you know, DeNiro turns to me
because yeah, we get that thing. Forget about that thing today,
and he was relieved. But he so it's like, you know,

(01:04:58):
he's he's you're you're you're your mirror in the whole movie.
You know, he's I think he's the only person who
ever has like sympathy for people dying or catching you know,
bullets that you know they don't necessarily deserve it. It's
his story, you know, he wrote. Everyone else is like, yeah,

(01:05:18):
like the guy died. It doesn't matter. Like, you know,
Jimmy Conway's a sociopath. Jimmy Conway is like a calm sociopath.
You know. Joe Pesci's character is like be a full
on Psychloremi and ray Leo is just like also a sociopath. Difference,

(01:05:39):
but he can tell the difference. What do you think objectively? Uh,
is the greatest movie ever made? I don't know that.
You know how you say this, everything you can happen.
What do you think is the grand people say objectively? Well,
in other words, you may not have even loved the
movie as much as every body else, but you think, yeah,

(01:06:01):
you know what that really is? Like the best People
say that Godfather one and two, I could take that.
People say Apocalypse Now. I can see that, you know, um,
Pocalypse now was crazy? That movies that loving up? Still,
how did you do this? Like that's another one that
changed the genre of warm Oh my gosh, just crazy.

(01:06:22):
I mean, I just I just you know, I feel
that way about Apocalypto too, man, Apocalypto as a movie.
I saw it later in life and I just was like,
how did you do this? You know? Um? Yeah, I mean,
but I want to say, I don't want to keep
it too much longer. I' just a couple of one thing.

(01:06:44):
At the end of every episode, I wrapped this up
by saying, remember that Jimmy b speech at the SPS
never give up. I remember. So it's always meant something
important to me in my life. Um you know, I
lived with the disability and it's just something that when
that that speech just really has been integral to me.
But he said to have a full life, you need

(01:07:06):
to do three things every day. Laugh, cry, and think.
So I always asked everybody that comes on the podcast
Shockiking what makes you laugh? Besides good fellas, it could
be you know, a person, situation, a friend who can

(01:07:27):
get you to laugh. Um My, my, my best friend, Calva,
the funny guy knows you. Um I can cry at
a good car commercial. What about you? Are you a crier?
Um mm hmmm someone I love when they were paying

(01:07:47):
m hm yeah. And finally, the the oculus outside Barkley
Center that you know a ribbon board there. It's everybody
can see it when they come up through the subway,
when they come in a Arkley Center. If you could
put something up there and you're a filmmaker. So you've
given people things to think about. But if there's just
something you could put up there that you want everybody

(01:08:08):
that walks through those doors to see and think about,
we think it'll be jeez, I don't know. Terrible questions
like is there is there is there something that maybe
Spike told you as a filmmaker like that you have
in your mind all the time. Me, it was Marty

(01:08:29):
Glickman always said, consider the listener. To me, that's always
whenever I do a broadcast or a podcast or something,
I'm like, I'm thinking about that person listening, saying, you know,
what do they need? What do they want right now?
What can I do them? I mean, I think for me,
the thing is like just navigated to just I think
recognize your place and the thing that you make, and
how little you have to do with it. M hmm.

(01:08:53):
That there's a lot, there's a lot left up the
chance or so much of it you know you have
has something to do with it, You have a lot
to do with it. You also have absolutely nothing to
do with it, down to the idea coming to you
that you none of that is yours. Shaka King Oscar

(01:09:13):
nominated director one of the Barkley Center h ten creators
celebrating ten years at Brooklyn Shock. I really enjoyed talking
to you. I hope I can keep you too long.
Thank you so much, Chris Shaka King is his second
full length feature film, ends up being nominated for an

(01:09:36):
Academy Award. Really excited to see what's coming up next
from Shaka King. On the way out here, I mean
obviously Judas in The Black Messiah. If you haven't seen it,
that's my viewing recommendation for you, outstanding film. Something to
listen to. Song of the episode as we leave you

(01:09:56):
here goes back to what I talked about in the
beginning of this podcast and in my career and fulfilling
your dreams. One of the best live music events I
ever attended was the Seat Here Now Festival in Asbury
Park on the beach. Got to see my beloved Pearl Jam.
But before Pearl Jam at the stage, it was this

(01:10:17):
awesome moment. It was twilight, the sun was setting on
the beach. Concluding it was just a beautiful day. Pearl
Jam's coming up at night and the Abbott Brothers played
and they were terrific. I wasn't sure what to think
of them in a festival setting, but they were great.
And there's a song by the Abbott Brothers called Head
Full of Doubt that I've always loved. It's a triumphant song.

(01:10:43):
If you're loved by someone, you're never rejected, So decide
what to be and go be it. My thanks to
my producer Tom Dowd, engineer Isaac Lee, thanks to Shaka King.
Talk to you next time. I'm Chris Carino right here
on the Voice of Inn.