Episode 34: Michael Pina of The Ringer

Chris discusses the Nets’ impressive recent run (0:00) before speaking with The Ringer’s basketball analyst Michael Pina about the NBA season as well as his career in sports media (9:19).

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hey, what's going on. It's Chris Carino. This is the
voice of the Nets. Thank you so much for checking
in with us. Here. We're gonna talk to Michael Pena,
who covers the NBA for The Ringer. Wrote an article
called the Nets are Ready to Move Forward. It was
a profile piece on Nick Claxton that sparked our conversation.
We'll talk about Nick, we'll talk about the Nets, we'll

(00:30):
talk about NBA. He spent years covering the NBA for
Sports Illustrated as well, and we'll talk to him about that.
Some of the features that he's done, get to what
makes him laugh, cry, think and all that a Boston
guy now living in Brooklyn. Michael Pena of The Ringer
is coming up. We also do dive into Believe It

(00:51):
or Not the Oscars, which we recorded this podcast with
Michael Peter before the Nets left on a road trip
the week that led up to the Oscars. So I
wanted to tie an Academy Award theme to what we're
seeing with the Nets right now before we get to
Michael Peena, because we talked about it in last week's

(01:12):
podcast with Keith Urgo. I hope you listened to in
Fordham's run, by the way, came to an end in
the semifinal, losing to Dayton, but a great year for
the Rams. But I talked about that game in Boston
at the Nets one when they came back from twenty
eight points down to beat the Celtics on the road,
and what happened in that game that maybe could spark things,
could get them going. And since we've done that, since

(01:35):
we talked about that, I'm recording this part of it.
Right after the Nets beat the Denver Nuggets to win
for the fifth time in their sixth game and the
only one they lost was a game in Milwaukee, which
is in the middle of a three games and four
days stretch on the road, where they chose to sit
some of their guys and still almost beat the Bucks

(01:57):
with the end of their bench. That was the only
blip in the five games out of a six game
swing that they won. The book ends the Boston game
and this win against Denver. The win against Denver, which
as I record this game yesterday on the road in
the Mile High City, that was a best picture. That

(02:18):
might have been their best game of the year, especially
the third quarter. They put up thirty seven points. They
held Denver under twenty. It was just the best performance
of the year, perhaps especially that third quarter. They beat
a Denver team that was ready for him. I mean
the Denver team that had lost two games in a row.
They were coming off a loss to the lowly Spurs.

(02:40):
They're the best team in the West, went into the
game with a five and a half game lead in
the Western Conference. Nicola Yokitch looks like he's gonna win
his third straight MVP, so they were looking for a win,
they were looking to play better. Nets came back from
ten down in the third quarter to win the game
and won the game despite a thirty point twenty re
bound triple double from Nikola Yokis. So I gotta give

(03:04):
that game the Best Picture award. The game on the
other end that we talked about Boston, well, I call
that best screenplay came from twenty eight down one byte
ten biggest comeback in the NBA this year, and it
had some great lines of dialogue that came out of
that one. Right. We had Cam Johnson talking about during

(03:26):
the game. At one point they were now twenty eight,
they just looked at each other and says this ends here,
and then they went and turned it around. Jack Baun
gave us the line after the game, and he was
talking about how they kind of scrapped some of their
stuff and went back and kept it simple. He said,
we just had to do simple better. And after the game,

(03:48):
Spencer didn't what he talking to us on the radio.
Me and Kabery said late in the game, offensively goes,
we went elephant hunting. It was a Hollywood script to
win that game against Boston. And you know we're talking
post trade deadline here for the Nets with this new
group and the guy who has emerged as best actor

(04:09):
actor in a leading role, a role we didn't know
he could play, as mckel bridges, the key piece perhaps
in the Kevin Durant deal. We knew he was an
All NBA defender, you know, runner up for Defensive Player
of the Year last year. Durable hadn't missed a game
in his NBA career. Didn't know though, that he could

(04:34):
be box office goal, be a leading actor. The game
in Minnesota the other night where the Nets who one
in overtime, his sixth thirty point game as a net,
six thirty point games in a ten game stretch that
he had played as a Net he had only scored
thirty more in a game two other times in his
NBA career. He gets the Academy Award for a Leading Actor,

(05:01):
and now there are a lot of good nominees for
Supporting Actor, but a guy that I'm gonna go with
a bit of a dark horse. Royce O'Neil said this.
Since the trade, the new players have come in and
a lot of them have great defensive reputations, and people

(05:22):
looked at Royce O'Neil as maybe a guy that was
going to get shoved in the back burner, that there
are other guys coming in that kind of do the
same things that he does. Royce O'Neil is a glue guy,
a glue guy. He is a winning player. He does
the little things that help you win games. And he

(05:44):
did get a little overshadowed and his minutes went down
when the new guys arrived. I've always been saying that
guy's gotta play. I talked to Jacque Vaughan before the
Denver game and I brought up Royce O'Neil because he
was coming off this great game against Minnesota where he
met to career high with fifteen rebounds. At many times
he was guarding Rudy Gobert's got like eight inches on him,

(06:08):
and Jacque wall and told me, he said, you know,
we kind of did take Royce for granted a little bit,
but we overused him early in the year. You know,
maybe they were trying to make him a lead actor.
He's more of a supporting guy. His minutes now are
a little bit. They were playing like forty minutes a game.
He was up amongst the leaders in the league, and
minutes now he's around where he should be, around between

(06:30):
twenty and thirty minutes a game. And there's other guys
now that can be looked upon to be those lockdown
perimeter defenders. He's a good perimeter defender. His strength, though,
seems to be interior defense and low post play, and
he can guard bigger players. We saw that against Gobert,
and he was matched up a lot of times late
in the game with Nicola Yokish, Clason had gotten some

(06:54):
bowed trouble and there's Royce o'neio battling Nicolai yokes. Now,
Yokis are gonna is going to destroy most guys in
the league, but O'Neill made it difficult for him. Lait
in that game. He's capable of doing that. And here's
the thing about Royce O'Neil, I don't even need to
look at the stat sheet to know what kind of

(07:16):
impact he's having on the game. I don't even care
about his stats. And that's a good supporting actor. So
that's our best supporting actor. And of course the guy
that's orchestrating at all, best director Jack Baum. The game
in Denver, right before the last play, he waited and

(07:41):
then he puts Claxton in. They're inbounding right in front
of him, and he directs claxtonister where to be, and
as Tim Capstraw pointed out on radio, so astuteley he
put Clackson in there late, set him up at an
angle where they're gonna have to inbound the ball toward
mid court or they were gonna have to throw it
over Claxton and make it difficult to get Yokich the ball,

(08:04):
and ended up having is Yokich had to come all
the way out to the perimeter, all the way out
to the sideline to get the pass. They had aloft
it to him, which allowed O'Neill to come out on him,
getting his chest and make that shot. Tough for him.
Jacques Vaughn has pressed all the right buttons all year
long since taken over his head coach, and deserves consideration

(08:26):
as best director the NBA, and boy, if he ever
want an Academy award, his speech would be unbelievable. And
you know, the best picture always goes to the producer.
And all the things we've talked about producer Sean Marks
and his staff think about the award winners. There the
trade to get Bridges, making the move to Jacques Vaughan

(08:50):
as your director, giving up a first round pick, to
you try to get your best supporting actor in Royce O'Neil.
All that credit goes to the producer as well. All right,
I think I've exhausted the Oscar analogy, so let's get
on to the business at hand. A conversation with Michael

(09:12):
Pena of The Ringer right here on the Voice of
the Nets. Michael, great to talk to you. Thank you
so much for joining us. Oh my goodness, Chris, my pleasure.
Thank you so much for having me. You're you're like
a neighbor. You're in the in the Barkley Center area
of Brooklyn night but you're originally from Boston though, correct,

(09:33):
I am, yes, you're part of this. So now you're
at the Ringer. I know Bill Simmons kind of it's
like they called the Boston Mafia right that he brings
over to the Ringer. Where was there any kind of
a Do you ever see the movie Diner? Remember remember
remember the guy makes his wife take the Baltimore Colts
test before he would marry her. Is there any kind

(09:55):
of a Boston test that Bill Simmons gives you guys
from Boston to make sure sure that you're you're part
of the mafia? You know, there isn't, um, at least
not for me, but if there was, I would definitely
pass it. Um. I'll just I'm bragging a little bit,
but I know pretty much everything there is to know
about Boston sports, and I'm pretty sure that would be

(10:18):
the gist of the exam, So I think I would pass.
I hope. I'm not even gonna bother testing you on
Red Sox history or or Celtics history or anything like that. Um,
it might not even might not even bring up the
last Nets Celtics game where the Nets came back from
twenty eight down to win that game. It's been a

(10:40):
rough week for the Celtics as we record this, So
maybe we'll stay away from that. Um, let's talk more
about what prompted us to give you a call and
want to talk about was the the subject of Nick Claxton.
And we'll use that into a foray here in our
conversation here, Uh you right for the ringer, you cover
the NBA and it's a terrific piece that was entitled

(11:02):
the Nets are Ready to Move Forward and it was
the focal point was about Nick Claxton. What what did
you walk away from most in that interview as far
as what you think about Nick Claxton. Yeah, I mean,
obviously super impressive young man, super impressive. I mean what

(11:27):
attracted to me it attracted him to me the most
is just anytime someone is a candidate pseudo candidate for
two major end of season awards. I think he's a
candidate for Defensive Player of the Year. I think he's
a candidate for Most Improved Player. He may not win
either of them, but I think he deserves to be

(11:47):
on a lot of ballots for both. So right there,
he's alluring. You look at the age, you look at
the general skill set that he has, the length, athleticism,
and what was really fascinating to me was just obviously
he was this humongous part of what the Nets were

(12:13):
earlier this season when they had KD and they had
Kyrie Irving, and he's just this perfect complimentary piece. We
do the interview at the Nets practice facility the day
after the trade deadline, so I'm sure he was still
processing a lot of the change of Kyrie Irving is gone,

(12:33):
who was traded a few days prior, and then Kevin
Durant obviously is no longer there. And while we were
doing the interview, you know, Michail Bridges and Cam Johnson
are taking their photos their official photos for the for
the NBA. That's how fresh everything was. And I just
think that it's really interesting kind of zooming out and

(12:54):
looking big picture at this player who. You know, you're
going from the quote unquote super team era that the
Nets had for a few years and you're going towards
building around pieces that well. Obviously a lot of them
were acquired in this in the trades, but Clackson was not.

(13:16):
Clackson was drafted in the second round. And when you
can get a piece like that in the second round,
thirty first overall pick I believe it just says a
lot about the front office. It says a lot about
the health of the organization and going forward. I think
having him with the skill set that he has that
is so critical in the modern NBA, let you do

(13:39):
a lot of different things on offense and on defense.
He's just a fascinating figure for this organization going forward.
And he's got this combination of humility, but he has
swagger too. He's got a little, you know, real self confidence,
but humility there. There's a it's an interest interesting balance

(14:01):
when you talk to Yeah. Absolutely. I think one of
my favorite parts of the interview was when, you know,
I asked him, what is something about your game that
you're not satisfied with? You know, you're this most improved
player candidate, but what's there's obviously something that you're unhappy with?
And before I even finished the question, he's just like

(14:21):
my free throws and he goes into this long monologue
about how difficult it has been for him ever since
he went one for eleven in the final game of
the previous season against the Celtics and the playoffs, how
mentally difficult that was, and just his you know, I
asked him point blank, like, how does it feel to
get intentionally fouled? That must not feel great, and he

(14:44):
said it used to bother me, but now when I
walked to the free throw line, it's just a free throw,
Like the world is not going to end if I
missed the shot. And you look at his his you know,
small sample, but you know he's fifty one percent leave
on the season, but since February first, I think he's
sixty seven percent or something like that. So whatever he's

(15:06):
doing mentally, whatever he's doing, I know he's switched up
his routine in a couple of times, but he seems
to be more comfortable when he steps to the line,
And that's obviously critical for anyone who wants to play
big minutes, especially on a team that I would think
will be in the playoffs this year, and then going
forward as they gel, as they coalesce, as they had
more talented pieces, will be in the playoffs for the

(15:29):
foreseeable future, just with what they have going on in
the assets that they have, and to be on the
court in the fourth quarter, you got to make your
free throws. And that's such an underrated part of the
NBA game because especially now where your ability to get
whistles is much easier, especially late in the game, to
be able to make the free throws. I rememberhen Kevin
Durant was yere. He'd be like, they're free, Like you
gotta crew make him they're free, and he would shoot

(15:52):
him at such a high rate. But a couple of
things when it comes to free throw shooting that Nick
has in pressing me with, and I you know, you
see it. You see a ton of bad free throw
shoos in the NBA. But all I want to see
is you want to see them work at it. And
you also don't want it to deter their aggressiveness. And

(16:14):
I think Nick Clackson has never let it deter his aggressiveness.
He could go up there and miss ten free throws,
but he will play his hard and will attack the
rim with force and not be afraid to go to
the line. That's always something that you want to see.
And the other thing is to somehow you know, the
work on it part is change the routine up like that.

(16:37):
You know that that definition of insanity, right, keep doing
the same thing over and over again. You've seen over
history guys that are bad free throw shots. They just
they think it's just all mental, and yes, it may be.
But what Nick did this year, he changed his routine.
You know, in trying to get better, he went to
this deliberate routine thing that he could replicate over and

(17:02):
over againy and he would bend the knees and he
would come up, but he would stop and he would
put the ball up on his left hand and he
would let it stay there for a little bit. And
now he's starting to speed it up a little bit.
But at least he changed something at least to try
and make them be able to replicate his motion. And
I just there's so many guys that over the years
have been bad free throw shooters that you don't even

(17:22):
see them try. I mean, yeah, they alight, I'll go
shoot two hundred in the gym today. But unless you
do something different at the line to ruin a game,
it's not going to change. Yeah, I think that for
a lot of NBA players, it's a pride thing. Right.
I'm in the NBA. I'm one of the four hundred
and fifty best basketball players in the world. I don't
need to work on something. I'm I'm impenetrable, I'm invincible,

(17:46):
And to have the humility a lot of even the
best players. There's a lot of players who are the
greatest players have ever played who have humility. I think
it is an integral quality. Nick Lackson certainly has humility.
You can tell in his work ethic, you can tell
in how he plays the game. And going back to
what you said, which was spot on about he doesn't

(18:09):
shy away from contact and he's extremely aggressive attacking the basket.
You know, when I asked Doc Rivers for this story
about what stands out to him about Nick Clackson this season,
he said, He's got to work on the free throw shooting,
but it'll come. And what I love is that he's
not afraid to go to the free throw line and

(18:30):
he will improve eventually because he clearly has that type
of attitude towards getting better and improving. So I thought
that that was a really interesting answer. And in the game,
talking about Doc Rivers in Philadelphia and talking about Nick's swagger,
he blocks Joel and Bead and then gets an aw
dunk on the other end, and then he was pointing
to the six. He was at the six at the

(18:50):
six or bench pointing to the six on his jersey
meaning Bill Russell and then ended up getting I think
a technical like him and Nianger going at it like
that's that's kind of Nick right there. You know, he's
got that humility, but he's got that game and he's
not afraid to let you know about it. He did
it to Brook Lopez the other day too, he got

(19:11):
his face a little bit. Yeah. You know. His footwork
is so good too, and I think we you know,
we hear about that, not just on the defensive end
with his footwork and makes him able to cover guards
and switch everything, but also now you're seeing when he
gets it in a high post, he's not a threat

(19:33):
to It's amazing because most guys have to be a
little bit of a threat to shoot it before you'll
they'll be able to make that spin move or get
down to the rim on you. Nick's an amazing guy
in the fact that you know he's not he's not shock.
He's not just gonna back you down and muscle you
the rim or and bead. He don't. He won't shoot

(19:53):
it for more than eight feet away, and yet he's
still able to get the ball on the high post
and go to the rim. Yeah, the way he put
it and I can't remember if it was a quote
in the story or just how I paraphrase it, but
he eats space, catches the ball at the elbow. There's
space between him and his man who is sagging off,
and he eats the space. He gets the contact and

(20:13):
he finishes through it or he draws the foul. You
even see on these attacks on these line drives to
the basket. Like to your point about the footwork, he's
got the euro step down, which is just like six
to eleven seven Footers who can move like that, who
are that agile are extremely rare. He's got the feel

(20:36):
with the ball, you know. I talked about it in
the story with the dho to the dribble handoff keepers
where he'll fake keep the ball spin towards the basket.
That's a really tricky thing to master. It's particularly difficult
when you have brand new teammates and you've seen him
struggle a little bit since the trade deadline with that action.

(20:56):
But that'll come, and when it does, it just makes
this offense so much more difficult to stop because they
always have shooting. They still have great shooters on the team,
and you have to worry about the shooters, but he didn't.
You give the stat that he led the league in
the fake handoffs. He's fourth, I believe, fourth in total. Yeah,

(21:17):
which shocked him. He was like, I have I just
started doing it twenty games ago. I was like, yeah,
well you're right up there. So he's just really tremendous
at it. And it's just one of those things where
he's I just keep going back to improvement. The fact
that he wasn't doing this three months ago, four months

(21:38):
ago or whatever at the beginning of the season November,
he's not doing this lately, he is, and it's been terrific.
I think sometimes the most improved player you don't really
have to get that couple of years of ground swell
of people talking about it before you get it. Obviously
it's a most improved thing. It kind of is somebody
that kind of comes out of nowhere, jumps to another level,

(21:58):
and so it's a it's it's probably the out of
all the awards. I think it's it's the most like,
let's ay, not genuine, but immediate, you know, all of
a sudden, like, oh this guy just sprung the life here.
Very rarely is a guy gonna win MVP when he
hasn't been in the conversation for a couple of years,
you know, where rarely he's got gonna be That's why
I thought the Defensive Player of the Year stuff. It

(22:19):
was interesting because he brought it up early in the year.
He kind of threw it out there, and I when
I heard the quote, I thought, oh, maybe it was
the reporter and we had a context. He was just
kind of repeating the question. No, he he actually said,
you know, I think I should get some consideration for
Defensive Player of the Year. And you know, I'm an
old school guy. I kind of like to your own

(22:39):
horn kind of thing, but I know the times we
live in and sometimes you gotta do it for yourself
and award like that. Sometimes you gotta be in the
conversation a little bit before people will actually end up
considering you for something like that. Well, that was a
brilliant move by Nick and just you know, watching from

(23:03):
afar before I even you know, had this idea, the
germination of this idea for a story. He wasn't really
on my rider for Defensive Player of the Year. And
I mean when the beginning of the season, the Nets
defense was not good at all, so no one on
that team was getting any consideration for an award, But
he's been so tremendous, so invaluable all year long on

(23:25):
that end, an unsung hero, if you will, and just
all the different ways he impacts that side of the ball,
be at the rim protection, the fact that he leads
the NBA in total blocks. I don't know where he
is in blocks per game right now because Jaron Jackson
Junior is kind of shut up with the minutes that
he's played, but I think he maybe second or third
still just like two point six, I want to say

(23:47):
blocks per game at the top of many, which is
just incredible stuff. But it's even more than that. It's
you know, obviously the versatility, the switching on to just
about anyone in the league, being able to keep them
at bay. Not a lot of biggs can do that.
Eric's Bolster compared him to bam at a Baio, who
was a preseason favorite in a lot of people's eyes
for a defensive Player of the Year. I think they're

(24:08):
probably the two best switch bigs, I would say, in
the NBA this season, and you can just you know,
look at the data. Jack Von trusts Nick Klackson to
switch every single time they're defending a pick and roll
almost so he's been tremendous in that area and you
have to be I think or it increases your value

(24:29):
tenfold if you are a big man who can switch
out on the perimeter. And we know the difference between
the regular season and the postseason. You can get played
off the floor defensively if you're one dimensional, and so
for him to be able to do that is great.
And then not even blocking shots, but in the paint
just you know, second Spectrum is this resource that I

(24:50):
use for the story, and you know, they track the
field goal percentages the posing shooters have based on who
is the nearest the closest defender and you let go
of the ball, and Nick Clackson boasted the lowest opposing
field goal percentage on all shots among I think the
minimum was like five hundred shots defended or something like that.

(25:12):
So there's like well over one hundred players who qualify,
and he was the best. I think the second best
was Draymond Greene, who everyone knows is just this tremendous
defensive player, Defensive player of the year. So Claxton's case
is really strong. I think I don't know if he
will win. It probably not because it's gonna be tough.
There's because sometimes you gotta again, you gotta be in
the conversation for a year or two, you know, like

(25:33):
people won't go out. You just he just got on
the radar. He can't be the guy ready, and then
you start watching him and you go the other thing.
You know, you're talking about Bam made Baio. I think
that's kind of where the nets sort of projected him.
And it's and it's sometimes hard. You don't um people
like to make comparisons, like if I asked you for
a comp on a guy, A lot of times you

(25:54):
look for a guy that's visually similar and bad isn't
sort of visually similar to Nick Claxton. But that ability
to switch, and what's impressive about both of them is
they can rebound and protect the rim even in a
switching defense because a lot of times they're out on
the perimeter now guarding smaller players, and yet they can

(26:16):
still they're able to get back to the rim to
help and get back to rebound. I mean that's the
most impressive stuff for me. That's that was what I remember.
You know, Claxton sometimes reminds me of what Anthony Davis
used to do when he first got into the league.
I mean, you see that guy in a switch go
out and protect, go out and can test to three

(26:39):
and then get the rebound or block the guy trying
to get a putback. You know that ability to cover
like thirty feet is I think what is impressive about
guys like Claxton not a bio and make them defensive
player of your candidates. Yeah, absolutely, I think that just
covering that much space, covering that much area is credit goal.

(27:00):
And even if you watched, I mean the comparison now
between I know we're not this isn't a Bam out
a biopodcast, but BAM's switched last year more than anybody
this year has switched. Numbers are significantly down, and a
huge reason why is because they got killed on the
glass when he would switch out, and so they had
to make an adjustment. And for Claxton, I mean, the

(27:21):
Nets aren't the best defensive rebounding team in the NBA,
but Claxton does get back, does make those those key
rebounds in a lot of spots, and not a lot
of people can do that, So it's just really impressive. Well.
And also I think the nets defensive rebounding numbers will
go up now with the new group, you know, over
the course of a season, because I think even you know,

(27:41):
guys like Bridges and Cam Johnson and Phinney Smith are
they're known quantities defensively, but it's going to help them
in the rebounding department as well. And as another thing
too is that people that can realize I think when
the trades happen, now you had a starting lineup, you
have Claxton with four new guys, it was almost you know,

(28:02):
and they're they're they're two duos who had already played
with each other. So Claxton was really the one guy.
I mean, he didn't spend that much time with Dinwood.
He probably on the same floor when Dinwood he was
a Net the first time. But it was like I
almost think it was the biggest adjustment for Nick Claxton
with that group, and he struggled, you know, his instincts
kind of he slowed down a little bit until recently

(28:24):
I think started to kind of get used to play
with those guys. Yeah, that's one correct. I think that
also the trade I mean for any big who isn't
a play creator. A playmaker has the ball in his
hands a ton When you're playing off of two super
duper stars who dressed so much attention, that was, um,

(28:47):
you know, Clackson benefited as any player would. And now
the role is just kind of subtly shifting and the
attention is shifting also, And you know, it's really interesting
that jack Von from the jump just decided to have
Clackson be the five man. But then everybody else is

(29:08):
just a new player on the team, and that starting
five has been I mean, one of the funny things
that Clackson said to me the day of the trade done,
it's just like, we're gonna have, we have the potential
to have I'm paraphra using the best defense in the
NBA from this point going forward. You look at the
talent that they brought they brought in on that side
of the ball, and the starting five is allowing ninety

(29:30):
seven point four points per one hundred possessions, which is
just like ten points better than the best defense in
the NBA. So he was spot on there and it
shouldn't surprise anyone because he's amazing. Michail Bridges was second
for a Defensive Player of the year last year, Cam
Johnson is amazing defender and Dorian Finney Smith is one

(29:52):
of the better more versatile wing guys in the league.
So and Spencer denied he has size at his position.
So it's it's a really interesting group and everything takes time,
um in the league, when it comes to playing with
new teammates, particularly when there's four new teammates who you're
spending a majority of your minutes with. Yeah, and then

(30:13):
and then you're throwing a guy like Royce O'Neill who
had been starting, UM, who was also a plus defender
by all the metrics as well. So, UM, the question
is going to be can they score enough? And you watch,
you watch every game and you're you're glued into all
these all these games, and you cover the NBA so
well for the ringer, Um, how do you how do

(30:36):
you see them as far as being able to score
with that group? Do you think do you buy Bridges
as a as a go to offensive player? Could they
actually um be a tough out for somebody in the
first round of the playoffs. I think it's I mean,
it's a really good question. When I look at the team.

(30:58):
What they need more than anything is more ball handling,
more playmaking. Spencer Dinnett, Spencer Dinwit. He was kind of
like probably the third ball handler on a Dallas Mavericks
team that went to the Western Conference Finals last year,
and now he is kind of the primary playmaker on
this team, and maybe that's a role that is not

(31:18):
the best for him on a very good, very competitive
playoff team, very good player having a very good year,
but a little over tax and what he what he
needs to do in terms of getting everyone else involved.
I Micael Bridges. I mean, I don't want to say
he's been a revelation because I remember talking to him

(31:40):
at Summer League when he was just drafted, doing a
story about him, and one of my first questions was about,
you know, coming into the league, is probably the best
three and D prospect out of Illanova, out of college
where he played at Villanova, And he said, yeah, that's wonderful,
but like, I have so much more to my game.
I want to be Paul George. I want to be

(32:01):
Kawhi Leonard, and he went to a team where that
just wasn't in the cards. You're playing with Chris Paul,
You're never gonna have the ball in your hands you're
playing with Devin Booker, not a lot of shots with
you independently creating them. So what we're seeing now is
I mean, I don't know, he's not Paul George yet

(32:22):
for sure, but super impressive stuff. I mean, the way
he's scoring off the bounce. The playmaking needs to come.
I think it will when you have an off season
where you know what your new role is going to be,
where I need to set up guys too, and I'm
gonna get way more attention also from defenses that I
didn't get in Phoenix because I was the third or

(32:43):
fourth option. So I think he's just a super special talent.
Obviously one of the better spot up shooters, better movement
shooters in the league. They're gonna have the shooting, they're
gonna have the defense offensively for right now. In the playoffs,
it's gonna be it's gonna be tough for them, honestly,
I think to to generate enough points, particularly if you're

(33:05):
going up against I don't know the Celtics or the
Bucks or the six Like, it's just it's gonna be
tough against those defenses. Um, but you had another playmaker
in and things canna get really interesting. Next. Yeah, they
they're just gonna have to play games in the nineties,
you know, like they share like the nineteen nineties basically,

(33:26):
uh and go out and when game Yeah, well it's
it's it's fascinating to see, you know what will happen.
I think I just to finish up on bridges. Is
that what I've liked about some of these high scoring
games that he's had. He had a forty five point game,
he had a thirty eight point game. He'll he'll do it,
but he doesn't dominate the play. You look up and
you go, well, wow, he didn't take a lot of

(33:47):
shots to do it. And he doesn't hold on the ball.
You know, he's not he's not getting it and taking
a bunch of dribbles and he you know, he's either
shooting it, moving it, passing it, you know, going to
the rim. It's just I think that's where you say,
all right, a guy he can he maybe has a
higher ceiling than we thought, you know, going forward. Yeah,
I think what's really interesting you look at his usage,

(34:09):
which jumped like eight points from where he was in
Phoenix to Brooklyn, and he's actually turning the ball over
less despite having more responsibility, which is like a really
really good sign. It's only a nine game sample size,
but it's a really good sign for him and kind
of as he develops his playmaking shops going forward, that's something.

(34:30):
Taking care of the balls obviously critical. Yeah, and uh
and the team has their their turnover numbers have been
down as a play um. And just to finish up
this the nets, Cam Johnson is another guy that Uh,
he struggled with a shot early on when he when
he came in, But m really intriguing player and a
guy that I think has been as under the radar

(34:52):
over the years. Maybe it is because he's overshadowed some
of the start players there in Phoenix, just like mcel bridges.
But between his size, his shooting ability, his fearlessness, his
defense ability, I didn't I knew he was a great
player until I started watching him every potentially great player,
but until I watch him every day, realized both sides
of the floor, Cam Johnson's a real good player too.

(35:14):
Oh and he brought it when they went to the finals.
He was like integral, like he brought it on both ends.
That really, I mean, he was you know, he gets
drafted I think eleventh overall, and he's pretty old. Coming
out of UNC. People were really confused by how high
he was selected, but like, all that doesn't matter when

(35:37):
you're in the Western Conference finals and you're shooting like
sixty eight percent from the floor, and then you can
go to the finals and you're making every single pull
up jumper as he did so dunking on people also,
So I mean he's great. I was personally, like, I know,
Kevin Durant is Kevin Durant. I was like kind of stunned,

(35:59):
to be honest with you, the Sun's let Bridges and
Cam Johnson go, Like those are two. This is the
NBA where like wings of that size who play on
both sides of the ball are the most valuable commodity
beyond you know, the top five player. So to lose
two of them, I thought was, I mean, we'll see

(36:19):
what happens with them in the playoffs not having those guys,
but but yeah, like just really valuable pieces going forward
for the Nets, I think, and Cam Johnson shot will
absolutely come around. Like he's one of the better three
point shooters in the world. He'll be fine. Michael, Let's

(36:41):
talk about you as a as a basketball guy, living
in Brooklyn from Boston working for the Ringer. You were
previously with SI and you know you can read you.
You can go on and find all your old podcasts
of the NBA. Where did it all start for you?
I mean people know you, you're you're NBA fans know you.

(37:01):
How did it all start for you? I don't want
to just have the subscriber numbers plummet from this podcast,
so I want to, you know, go way back and
just tell the whole story. Everybody's looking for a good
origin story. Everybody wants to know a good origin story,
especially if they read your stuff, they hear you, they go,

(37:22):
how do I do that? I mean, look, I'll say, like,
this is all I ever really wanted to do. So
there was never a plan B for me. It was
always loved writing and I loved NBA basketball, those two things,
and so it was just taking every single opportunity that
I could coming up. And was fortunate enough too. I

(37:47):
started my own blog, wrote in it every single day
while I was doing actual actual jobs, other jobs out
of college and just grinding away at that. Every time
I wrote something that I was proud of, or even
when I wasn't proud of it, I would email it
to an editor at ESPN or an editor here and there,

(38:09):
until everything just kind of snowballed where my work started
to get attention and then start I worked at Bleacher
Report and that's covering the Lakers when I lived in
Los Angeles and got to cover Kobe Bryant's last season
in his last game, which was a tremendous experience. And
then from there you just meet people along the way,

(38:33):
and this business, so much of this business is networking
in connections and working hard and did all that and
just kind of parlated into eventually, get gets Sports Illustrated.
There were a lot of a lot of stuff in between,
but eventually a gig gets Sports Illustrated and then here
I am today at the Ringer. So it's been a

(38:53):
lot of fun. I mean, a gig get Sports Illustrated
is like not something you just stumble into, like it
just you know it. Eventually you make your own luck
there and it works out somehow. What was the biggest
swing you took? Like, what was the thing Because I
I I saw I do stalk you on social media
or anyone that I'm going to interview, I make sure
I go through their their Instagram, their Twitter, you know,

(39:15):
just see what's what's going on and you and you
put you put a picture up the other day on
Instagram of a book. All this could be different. So
was there a big swing somewhere that you took where
if you hadn't taken it, maybe all this could be different.
What a question? Um, I don't know. I mean, like

(39:36):
I said at the top, like doing this was all
I ever forsaw for myself. So every decision that I made,
and I was very fortunate enough to have, you know,
supportive parents and um, a wife who who was my
girlfriend for years and years and years, who incredibly supportive

(39:59):
in understanding that even when there were hiccups along the way,
and there were there are plenty of them, I wasn't
going to quit. This was just kind of it for me,
Like making this happen was my priority, my plan A,
Plan B, Plan C, and so on. So like I

(40:21):
had a lot of fortunate breaks for sure, in terms
of maybe opportunities to write certain stories. There was one
piece when I was working at Vice and for Vice Sports,
and I was fascinated by LaMarcus Aldridge. I'd never read anything.
There were no profiles about LaMarcus Aldridge. Yet he was

(40:44):
an All Star and multiple time All Star, but he
was an All Star this year in the Spurs, and
I went to all I reached out to his agency
and they hit me requesting an interview. And they hit
me back saying, yeah, you know, he never accepts interviews,
but he'll sit down with you for forty five minutes
in LA So I was like, Okay, went there, did

(41:07):
the interview, wrote a story that I'm very proud of
to this day, and like the connection that I made
with that agency then kind of spilled over into other
opportunities with their client list, and things just kind of
tumble from there. So whenever something came forward for me,
that was an opportunity, Like, I just tried to do

(41:30):
my best, and I think I did an okay job
in a lot of these spots. And why do you
think LaMarcus Aldridge took that interview request? I don't know
to this day, to be honest with you, I would
love to ask him. I know he was in Brooklyn
for a spell. Yeah I didn't, yeah, exactly. So I
loved my interview with him. I loved he opened up

(41:50):
about pretty much everything that I was wanting to talk
about and this was when he was with the Spurs
and there were rumors about, you know, he requested a
trade all that, So it was just it was a
great experience for me and just really fun connect I
just love connecting with NBA players when I have an opportunity,
like going back, just even this Nick Clackston story. Just

(42:14):
sitting down and talking to guys one on one is
just so different than even catching them in a locker
room or a Preyer pros game scrum. I just I
love sitting down and actually chatting. And one of the
things that I really enjoyed with the Clackston story was
I had my laptop with me and honestly, right before

(42:36):
he walked into the room, I was watching film of
him just because I wanted to just kind of refresh
my memory and my brain of some stuff I wanted
to talk to him about, and I had the clips up,
and when he walked in the room, I was like, Hey,
can I just show you these? And it just added
a new layer to the interview, I feel like. So
that was just kind of very serendipitous, and he was

(42:57):
fantastic breaking everything down so that it was just it's
really fun and enjoyable time. What was aside from Nick,
is there another one that stands out? A guy that
you had a chance to spend some time with that
was that was really rewarding and interesting. Yeah. I this
was a long time ago, but I got to travel

(43:20):
to Malibou spend a few days with Jimmy Butler the
offseason that he went from the Chicago Bulls to the
Minnesota Timberwolves and sat down with him. It's Jimmy Butler
and we were sitting alone in his private movie theater

(43:41):
and I remember he had like a popcorn machine and
it was just me and him. There were no publicists,
no pr people for like an hour and he's just
answering everything. TIBs called him at one point. I think
this made the story. Tips called him and he looked
at the phone. He answered the phone, He's like, I
can't talk him talking to Michael Peener. Now. I was
just like, this is truly bizarre stuff. But that was

(44:04):
really great. Um. The other one real quick, I did
a story for gquh UM I want to say like
two years ago maybe where they sent me to Minnesota
and I got to um hang out with Kevin Garnett
at his home in Minnesota, and that was I mean,

(44:25):
I grew up a humongous Celtics fan, so Kevin Garnett
means a lot to me personally. And then having to
first of all having an opportunity to spend a lot
of time with him and seeing that he is pretty
much exactly the same issue. He's exactly what you would
think he is in private, which was amazing. Um did

(44:48):
he take that was soccer field out in the in
the yard and stuff? You know, he had like he
has like regulations soccer field in his yard. Yeah, it
was huge, Like he had the nets up actually yeah,
and he's just um, so that was that was That
was like a story that I just pursed for me personally,
I don't know if I'll ever like top that in

(45:11):
terms of, um, I mean, my preparation for that one,
my my nerves everything was like on ten because it's
it's like KG, this is one of the in my opinion,
one of the you know, fifteen best players in the
history of the sport, one of the most important people
in the history of the NBA for so many different reasons.

(45:32):
And to be able to observe him, be around him,
see his home, get a tour of his home, talk
to him, talking about basketball with him, talk about his
life like that's just an unforgettable experience. He was one
of the great characters that came through the nets. And
you know, we got him there toward the end and
we actually went were he was with the team. We

(45:53):
went to London in twenty fourteen, and he's a huge
Premier League guy. He loves Chelsea. So when the team
went there, he Or had organized a trip out to
UH to Chelsea. So they went a bunch of the
staff and KG went Or out on the pitch or

(46:13):
in the locker room at some of the players. They
had the UH the jersey on everything. My little my
son was little and he was a Chelsea fan, and
I had him on the trip with me and I
had to go do like an event at Barcley's Bank
or something like that, and and KG took my son
along with the group to go visit the Chelsea facility.
So it was really clear awesome. He's a genuinely a

(46:35):
really nice man. He really it's really funny that you
say that because there's a there was a photo shoot
as GQ as a photo shoot in his living room
and uh there was the photographer had his son there
and the sun. I'll never forget this. The sun was
wearing it was either Barcelona or Man you or yeah

(46:59):
not at Chelsea Jersey and KG made him leave the room.
The shit. It's great, UM. And so that's another part
of being in part of the media and UM is
getting to know some of these guys on a personal level.
Uh and just you know, because we tend to with

(47:21):
the analytics and social media, you tend to treat these
guys like video game players, but there are people behind
these things. And I think that's where you pointed out.
It was great about the story on Claxton is you
you gave a nice balance between um, the stats and
the games you watch and the plays in this strategy,

(47:42):
but also the person and you know, people play this
game and that's why that's why it's such a It's
so hard to predict a lot of times, and that's
what makes it so good is that, yes, it's a
it's a game where there's a final score and there's
one champ at the end of the year every year,
and it's not always the best teams, it's not always

(48:03):
the best you know, that's why these these super team things,
it's not always a walk. Hm. No, absolutely not. I mean, look,
there's like so many different things that have happened in
the NBA that have been that have garnered more attention
in recent time. And I did a story about just
like a mental health is this, I guess, like epidemic

(48:28):
throughout the NBA, throughout society, and it's just obey, NBA
is going to be a subset of that. Yeah, yeah,
I mean, and it just impacts players. The stress level,
the anxiety, all that stuff is just so real and um,
you talked to or I talked to a number of
therapists and people who work for teams, people who work

(48:51):
with NBA players for that story. It was very eye
opening for me personally. I did a magazine story last season,
published almost a year ago to the date, about John Morant,
and you look at what he's going through right now.
It's very, very troubling, and I hope he gets help,

(49:12):
but it's just you're right, these are people. They have
their personal lives, they have their demons that they need
to overcome, and it's really difficult. I wrote another story
a couple of years ago about Karl Anthony Towns, who
obviously lost his mother to COVID nineteen and just having

(49:33):
a you know, that was one of the hardest interviews
I've ever done where he had not really opened up
about the loss of his mother in detail in a
one on one conversation, and multiple times throughout he's just like,
I don't really have even have the words to express
my grief still, So really, you just don't know what people,
these players, players who are people are going through on

(49:55):
a nights and night basis, and just there's a lot
of pressure to obviously perform, and yeah, it's just it's
a just a fascinating kind of ecosystem, I would say.
So when you put up the post about all this
could be different, there was no subliminal messaging there or

(50:15):
there was any kind of thing you were trying to
tell us. It was just a good book. No, every
time I read a book I posted on Instagram. During
the season, I can't really focus, so there's not a
lot that are posted, unfortunately, but when I get one down,
I like to throw it up there. I consider myself

(50:38):
an avid reader, even though I just added myself as
someone who can't read during the season, which is like
ten months of the year, so that's something I'm trying
to come to. You know what, though, I'm the same
way because during the season, it's just a constant. You know.
It's funny because I don't get to focus in on
a lot the league get broadly because you're so locked

(50:58):
in every night to the nets, and so I really
get into the I see the nets every single possession,
but and I see the teams they play, so, you know,
for instance, getting ready to do the Nets and the Rockets,
and we hadn't played the Rockets yet this year, and
I'm going, well, I haven't watched one Rocket game this

(51:18):
year because you're so you're either yeah, yeah, that's a
bad example. I haven't really watched a lot of the
Denver Nuggets either. They're on this trip and I've got
I haven't seen them yet in person this year. So
kind of when you start to prepare for the team,
then you really start to lock in. You maybe watch
a game or two, but you're either traveling or playing,
so it's hard. I would imagine your your line of work,

(51:40):
you're watching at multiple games every night. Is there any
chance to have a life during the basketball season? What
do you do to even consider having a life or
are you completely content to just be watching every single
NBA game every night. No, there's just too much, to
be honest, and I've I've come to peace with that.

(52:02):
So I have my little system, my watching system. I
watch a lot. I watch probably two games a night,
and then I watch why I wake up and I
watch one the following morning. And that one's really great
because I can fast forward through the free throws, the timeouts,
the commercials, so that one isn't that bad. But I

(52:24):
also try to take like copious notes when I'm watching,
so it's a lot of pausing, a lot of rewinding.
The game is so fast. I don't really have a
social life, to be honest, I have it for like
a decade, but I exactly And that's fine with me
because I love the NBA. Love I love watching, I

(52:46):
love thinking and interrogating the league. Everything's changing constantly. But no,
even I My wife and I had our first child
in July, and relations thank you, and uh boy, you
know boy his name is Wesley, all right, but he

(53:11):
you know, I thought he would kind of quote unquote interfere,
which is a terrible word to use in this context.
With watching games, and he hasn't. He just kind of
sits there and he watches along with me, which is
which is terrific. And once he starts moving though, it
might change. Once you start literally everyone is telling me, yes,

(53:32):
that'll be. That a great age right now, Yeah, exactly,
I can't really do much. They got a little personality,
but he'll be he'll be doing picking rolls around the
living room while you're watching games pretty soon. Yeah, so
I'm not looking forward to that that. I think that's
when things that's going to be the game changer right there.
But right now it's Yeah, it's a lot of focus
on the league, and um, right now is the stretch run,

(53:55):
which is you know, you don't have to normally, you
don't have to keep as close and I because things
are a little more settled, and then you can prep
for the playoffs. This year is just a total free
for all. I have no idea what's going to happen.
You've got your favorites, but very unpredictable season. I think
it's great. I think it's great not thinking all right, well,
it's only going to be between these two teams and

(54:18):
we just got to see how it gets there. But
I yeah, you're it's wide open right now, and I
think that makes it so much fun. I'm looking so
much forward to the playoffs this year. Yeah, absolutely, I
do think that the Nets are going to make it,
which is really cool given the season that they've had
and obviously the trades that they've made. And I think

(54:40):
it's a matchup dependent as I said earlier, but like
if they catch the right team, who knows honestly, because
there's not going to be a lot of tape on them.
They can defend, which means you can play on the road,
you can space the floor, you can be versatile on
both ends. So that it's just really fun, even just
talking about a team that's supposed like reset the reset

(55:02):
button and it's like, well, actually they can make the
player going to make the playoffs this year and then
they'll be competitive there. So it's it's really fun. Not
a lot of time to figure out how it all works.
But the good thing was they had a little they
had a nice record, you know, had a nice cushion
going in. So yeah, so I was gonna say, like,

(55:23):
we're not gonna ask you to break down the oscars
because I'm sure that there just isn't enough time for
you to get in all the Oscar nominated films I
could ken you are? Is that? Is that a strength
of yours I've seen? I want to say, I've seen
how many? Are there ten nine films? I've probably seen

(55:44):
six or seven of them. I want to say, see
you guys hit the Ringer have to be very well
versed on a lot of things, right, the captain there, Bill,
he's he knows it all. He's on top of it
all right, So you gotta kind of maybe you got
to do the crossover pods, right, maybe you do a
rewatch bles well, hopefully hopefully I get the invite someday.
So do you have a do you have any said?

(56:05):
The Oscars are coming up on Sunday? Do you have
a do you have a Best Picture favorite or a
Best Actor or something you want to throw out there? Well?
The movie that I'm I want to rewatch before, um,
my wife hasn't seen it, so I'm probably gonna drag
her into it is I love Tar. I love that movie.
Saw it in theaters. Incredible stuff, unbelievable acting. Um, just

(56:30):
a thought provoking film and like I said, I need
to see it again. But it was like a mix
of I mean, it had like horror. I'm a huge
horror movie fan too, so it had like horror elements,
it had social commentary. Um, Kate Blanchett is obviously brilliant.
She was. She was incredible in it. You actually it

(56:50):
felt like she'd been a composer or you know, for
twenty years or whatever it is the way she did it.
I I just felt it was a little tough to
get through. Sure, it's a hard maybe like at one point,
I'm thinking I've been watching it for like an hour
and a half and it was like forty minutes in
and I'm like, oh wow, I got another two hours

(57:11):
left of this. Wait No, but but no, I did.
I did appreciate it. And we should say, we're taping
this because the Oscars are coming up on Sunday. As
we taped this before there's gonna come out actually a
couple of days afterward. Um. I was particularly taken back
by the Whale. I don't know if you saw that.
It didn't get it, didn't nominate it for Best Picture,
But I thought Brendan Fraser was as good. It's as

(57:36):
good as performance as you'll ever see in any film.
It's unbelievable. Got to see that one. Can I make
an Oscars prediction. We won't edit it. It's gonna come
out live on the day, the day after the Oscar,
two days after the Oscars. But go ahead, okay, Everything everywhere,
all at once, is going to sweep everything. That's my prediction.

(57:56):
It's gonna win all the awards. It's gonna win. It's
my love that movie. Tremendous stuff. I just feel. I
felt wonderful watching it in the theater, brought a tear
to my eye. I hope it wins. I'm rooting for it,
and I love that movie. Yes, so that's my prediction.
I think it's gonna win a lot of stuff. Everything everywhere,

(58:19):
all at once, will sweep everything. According to Michael Piano
that you know, that's a great It's a great segue
into wrapping up here because I always it that movie
was one that would make you laugh, cry and think.
It does it all right. It's got the trio. So
every time I wrapped this up, I refer to the

(58:41):
Jim Balbano speech to never give Up speech at the SPS,
which has always meant a lot to me in my life.
And he said to do to have a full life,
everyone should do these three things every day. They should laugh,
they should cry, and they should think. So I like
to end all my subjects. Put you under the gun,

(59:03):
Michael Peno, what makes you laugh? Um, My son, he's
the funniest person I've ever met. I say this all.
I say this every day. I tell my wife of
this every single day. He's he cracks me up with
everything he does. No, I can't talk well, he started

(59:25):
to say, uh, he started, mama, And I'm just I
sit in front of him and I, you know, I
say dad, dad dad da dad dah, and he looks
at me, he smiles and he just says mama like
and I just I can't. I lose it. I break
and I I think he's trolling me. I think he's
a little baby genius, a little emotionally manipulative, and he's hilarious.

(59:48):
I thought maybe since he watches so much NBA with you,
he's like yelling switch or something that's not yet soon soon.
I knew my son was going to be a huge
basketball And when I used to I used to wheel
him around the neighborhood and his stroller and he would
point to hoops and driveways and just go ball ball.

(01:00:10):
That's great. I knew he was going to be a
big hoops guy. Um, the the cry part of it
not only not necessarily like a sad thing, but what
moves you emotionally? Is there something you could point out
besides Kate Blanchet's performance in Tar What was it? What
else is it that maybe moves you and feel your emotions? Um,

(01:00:33):
it's a really good question. I mean, I'll say I'll
say like last year, I covered the finals and I
stayed with my parents because they live right outside Boston,
so I stayed with them for the conference finals and

(01:00:55):
the finals, and throughout that whole run, it was just
I was emotional multiple times because, like I was covering,
I just kept thinking back to my childhood watching the
Celtics with my dad, and now I was going to
these games and coming home from them and then getting

(01:01:16):
to talk about these huge games with him in person.
And I was someone who was like in the locker
rooms and just like I've had a sense of I've
felt really comfortable about who I am in this business
for a while, but like that felt like still totally
surreal to me and really meant a lot, and I

(01:01:41):
would regularly get not like regularly get choked up, but
like regularly be aware of how fortunate I am and
just how special that time was, even though the Celtics
lost and couldn't close it out. And and I really thought,
that's that's kind of the the point of the exercise,

(01:02:03):
I think in Jim Balbano's mind at the time, is
see these things that are in front of you and
recognize them and feel that emotion from it, you know,
don't just take him a granted as a guy who was,
you know, approaching the end of his life. That was
kind of the message he had there. Um. And also
your your your story there the Ringers saved money on

(01:02:24):
the hotels, which I guess probably made Bill happy. Well
that was sports illustrated that. Yeah, so they them because
they still continue to lay off people. So your your
time back in your childhood, in your room. You should
have stayed at the Four Seasons. In hindsight. Uh uh. Finally,

(01:02:49):
listen a big Howard Beck fans, anybody that had that
that does that to Howard Beck, I am not I'm
not happy, amen, amen, um and and a lot of
other people. Um, all right, Finally that you live right
by Barkley Center. So there's that oculus, you know, the oculus,
the video scoreboard, the video machine that's outside the front
of it. Yeah, the whole world there can see it

(01:03:12):
Flatbush in Atlanta or coming out of the subway, everybody
going too that arena. If you could put a message
up there, it's the think part. If you can put
a message up there for everybody to think about, what
do you think that might be? I think one of
the most important words. Just as a person now and
as I get older, I wish was more appreciated as empathy.

(01:03:35):
I wish people showed others more empathy, were more understanding.
We're willing to listen, We're willing to learn about others
in their situations before judging and speaking, And just like,
be empathetic would probably be what I would love to
just have up there. Going back to yeah, it goes

(01:03:58):
back to we were talking about about covering play and
the human beings that are playing these games, and I
think the word empathy is like at the core of
being a really good person, and uh, I wish more
people practiced it. And it doesn't hurt you to be empathetic.
So that's probably what I would I would have up

(01:04:20):
there instead of I'm looking at it right now and
it's a advertisement for Wu Tang nas concert. So I
wish that that was that was That would have been
my number two actually, because I'm really looking forward to
that show. But you're looking you're looking at the you're
looking at the oculus. I'm looking at it right now.
You can see it from where you are, I can,

(01:04:42):
all right, So yeah, so that's so be empathetic and
check out Wu Tang clientate parks. So the two messages
you would have, those are excellent answers. Michael Pinion, I
really appreciate you. Uh, you're being open with us and
uh and you can read all your stuff in The
Ringer And it was so great talking to you. Thanks

(01:05:03):
so much. We'll do it again sometime. Thanks so much, Chris.
This was fun, all right. My thanks to Michael Pena
on The Ringer dot com. Check out his article the
Nets are Ready to Move Forward. It was a profile
piece on Nick Claxton. Kudos to Michael for predicting that everything, everywhere,

(01:05:27):
all at once, would sweep the Oscars. It did. It
won least seven Academy Awards, including three of the four
Acting Awards. It took home Best Director and Best Picture. Man,
it's the big one right screenplay as well, so big
night for everything everywhere all at once. I recommended that

(01:05:51):
as one of the things to watch back on the pod.
Back in it was like October November. It was definitely
before the before the start of the NBA season, so
it was early October. I saw it on a flight
out to Los Angeles to do a football game, and
I just loved it. But here's the thing about the arts, movies, books, music,

(01:06:13):
and we get into that all the time. In the
post game, there's no scoreboard. And I remember I think
it was Eddie Vetterer who once famously we want a
Grammy basically get up there and said, I don't really
know what this means, Like it's kind of silly to
have winners and losers. When it comes to art, it's
a subjective thing. There's no scoreboard. It's not like sports.

(01:06:35):
You know, a lot of times people will use the
analogy of sports as art or players say they're like artists. Well,
I mean, there may be creative ways to score, but
a basket counts for a certain amount of points, and
there's a scoreboard it's not figure skating. You don't get
points from originality or degree of difficulty, and I think

(01:06:56):
that's the difference. And to judge art, it's kind of
silly in a way. I mean, listen, I love the
movie everything everywhere, all at once, and it wins Best Picture,
and there'll be a point of reference for decades where
you could say, all right, that it's a way of
comparing it to other films and when it came out.
But in reality, I recommend it to people who I

(01:07:18):
respect their opinion and who love the movies who didn't
like it. It's a subjective thing. But what it does
is it gets the conversation going right. It enhances the industry.
It's like what talk radio or talking heads on TV
do for sports. It promotes the game, and it's fun

(01:07:43):
and it leads to discussion and debate, and it keeps
it in your mindset, and it gives us a way
of referencing things. So it's fun and I love it.
But everything is subjective. He said that, you know, sports
have a scoreboard. Movie please have a score. And some
of the things we take for granted in a film

(01:08:05):
is the score. It's kind of the heartbeat of a movie.
I listened to Mike Breen on the JJ Reddick podcast recently,
The Old Man in the Three, and Mike talked about
his love of music and especially his love of musical scores.
So when I saw him a few days later, I

(01:08:28):
brought it up and we were talking about it, and
he recommended I watched this documentary called Score about the
composers who do musical scores, and it was terrific. So
I recommend it, highly recommended. And my favorite musical score
of a film was from a film that won Best
Foreign Film many years ago. It's called Cinema Ptadiso. And

(01:08:52):
the composer isn't an out late Ennio Morricone. He did
he did scores for other films like The Untouchables, Once
upon a Time in America, The Good, the Bad, and
the Ugly. What a great score that was, right, So
that's my listening recommendation. So watch Score and then check

(01:09:14):
out the score of Cinema Paradiso. And here's another little
thing that I like to do. Sometimes, if you're driving
in a car or you're on a plane and you're
looking out the window, put on a good musical score.
It gives your surroundings and it gives your experience kind
of a cinematic feel, which I always think is cool.

(01:09:35):
Thank you very much for listening and subscribing to the
Voice of the Nets. Thank you to my producer Steve Goldberg,
engineer Isaac Lee. We'll talk to you again next time.
I'm Chris Carino. Thanks so much for listening to the
Voice of the Nets.