October 19, 2023 • 26 mins
The Victoria’s Secret Icon burst onto the acting and modeling scene while injecting a carefree cool that has contributed to her stardom. Ten years into her storied career, she is raising a son with her best friend, running a prolific podcast, and letting go of what doesn’t serve her. In this insightful interview, Ratajkowski describes living without fear and maintaining control in an industry of complicated power dynamics, letting go of perfectionism, and getting to wear her first set of VS wings.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to VS Voices. I'm Amanda Decadey. Emily Ratikowski is
a model, writer, entrepreneur, and activist. In this interview, we
took about the last year in Emily's life, how she's
learning to heal, why she's speaking up about the rampant
misogyny in Hollywood, and what it's like to be back
in the dating pool as a mom, model and feminist.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
How are you.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
I'm good. How are you?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
I'm great.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
I haven't seen you in a long time.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I know it's been so long.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Oh my gosh, I don't know five years, right, probably.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
I was thinking about the last time we spoke or
I saw you, and I was thinking, my god, your
life has changed so much.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Yeah, because I remember kind of being actually Kamala Harris
fundraiser Marytos. I think it was last time.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Yep, that's the last time we saw each other and
you weren't married, you didn't have a kid, your whole
life was so different. Yeah. And then I read something
that you wrote, and I think I sent you a
text saying you're right. Thing is so good. You have
to do more of it.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Oh that's so sweet. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
When I look at kind of the last year for you.
I see that like a lot has changed in your life,
from you know, being married and then not married and
raising your kid. If you could sum up the last year,
what would you say that it has taught you overall?
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Oh my god, I don't know if I can do
an overall lesson. I just feel like I really grew
up in the past year. I mean, my son is
two and a half now, so I'm really just like
loving being a mother. I lived with my best friend
and my son, and you know, I really have just
(01:44):
kind of like a very independent lifestyle outside of you know,
taking care of him, and I really enjoy it. I
also started a podcast this past year that's I know,
that's yeah, three episodes a week, so that's been really crazy.
But I would say this has been like one of
the maybe favorite years of my entire life, which is
(02:07):
which is great. I've just been a surprise, honestly in
a lot of ways for me. If you had told
me maybe fifteen months ago that I would feel the
way I do, I wouldn't have believed you.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
How was that living with you a best friend? I
lived with my best friend for fifteen years, even while
I was married and she helped me raise my kids.
So I'm in big favor of that.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
I love it. I mean, I can't believe that it's real.
We've known each other since I was fourteen, and we
always used to talk about raising our children together, and
you know, would kind of be like, oh, when we're old,
ladies will finally be together because we always had boyfriends
and whatever. So having this time to live together and
especially with my son and kind of create a family
(02:50):
who's just been amazing.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
And how do you like doing the pubcast? What prompted
you to do that?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
It was really an extension from the book of just
kind of wanting to do more media, and I was
interested in the podcast space partly because I grew up
listening to NPR and I just felt like it was
something that I would be kind of naturally good at.
And it's been an amazing year. I'm really excited for
(03:18):
kind of like what's what I've learned in the past
year and what's going to happen. And it's new iteration,
but you know, it's very different than anything I've done
before in the sense we do three episodes a week
before that and any creative project I've ever done. It's
I'm kind of a perfectionist and I really like to
kind of, like, you know, make sure everything is exactly
(03:38):
how I want it to be. And when you're doing
three episodes a week, you can't do that. No, But
it's been kind of a good lesson in like finding
that balance and just making a lot of things. And
I mean, I really enjoy talking to people. I've gotten
to meet so many interesting people that are in particularly
women who that are in my industry, and hear from
(04:01):
them and connect to them, and that's been really incredible.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
And you're doing it three times a week. So do
you like, is this kind of the primary thing that
you want to do, because I can't imagine there's a
lot of time for other stuff.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
I mean, shockingly there is because I'm traveling so much
for work modeling, but it definitely takes more time than
I want to continue because i'd really actually like to
start writing again. And I also just think that for me,
I'm really interested in like video content, which we've started.
(04:33):
We've started posting the interviews on YouTube and that's really
kind of taken off. So I'm sort of I'm going
to be adapting what we've been doing for the past
year with the podcast and is something that's a little
bit more manageable so that I can get back into writing.
And also just like I'm constantly exhausted between having a
(04:53):
two and a half year old and then like traveling
at a moment's notice for modeling, and then also having
the podcast. It's just like it's too much.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Yeah, I know, I was saying to my husband last night.
I was like, I've been a mom since I'm eighteen
years old. I've been working since I'm fifteen years old.
Like I'm tired. Yeah, you know, like just or prioritizing,
It's like you have to prioritize at some point. It's
like you're prioritizing your kid and then it's your work,
and then you have to kind of move the priority around.
(05:22):
But I guess for myself, one of the things I
really learned in the last you know, couple of years
is that I have to move the priority to myself.
I have to make myself one of those buckets that
gets prioritized. Did you have you made any time for
yourself within this Yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Mean I think for the past maybe for the first
year after my separation, I was just like really interested
in being super social and like, you know, being single,
and so that was how I prioritized time for myself,
even if I was exhausted, you know, going out and
meeting people for a drink or whatever else. And now
(06:00):
I've sort of like shifted gears. I don't know if
it's just like where I'm at and my process or
my life, and I just really love like a cozy
night at home and honestly like going to sleep very
early and getting a great night sleep. It's not that
I do that every night. I just been doing that
a lot more. And that's kind of the self care
that I'm that I'm finding.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Yeah, I saw that you had interviewed asked the Parral
who I love. She was involved with my series The
Conversation in the beginning, and she's just profound, and I
wondered why you had chosen to interview her.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
I just love I love her books. I also think
she's a really interesting public figure in the sense that
men and women really both are super interested in what
she has to say, which isn't true for a lot
of people. I think there's like people who are like
the guys kind of person or the girls, and she
really kind of just everyone is interested, and I really
(06:57):
like her work, and I've seen a lot of her interviews,
and I was just kind of interested in some of
the things that she brushes up on, especially around like
power dynamics and relationships, but that she kind of, you know,
I would say, like she what she said to me
on the podcast is like, this could be a whole
other book, and I'm not ready to like totally, you know,
(07:19):
write that book. So I was really kind of excited
to kind of push the conversation forward a bit with
her because she has done so many PAD talks and
podcasts and interviews that Yeah, it was. It was great.
It's one of my favorite episodes.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Yeah, she's she's amazing. Have you read Mating and Captivity
one of her past books. Yeah, so good, isn't it.
How do you feel about marriage now?
Speaker 2 (07:46):
I feel that marriage can be beautiful. I think that
we are kind of in an interesting moment culturally around
partnership because women are making more money than they ever
did and men are not graduating from college as much.
So the sort of traditional gender roles that we associated
(08:07):
with marriage have just fallen apart. And you can see
all the data and the statistics, but you can also
kind of feel it in the zeitgeist that you know,
the traditional way of dividing labor in a home has
to shift because things have shifted in the world. And
I'm curious and excited to see, like what kind of
new models we come up with for partnership and for
(08:30):
a marriage that are more equitable. And you know, yeah,
I just think that there has to sort of there's
a little bit of a reckoning happening in that sense.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
I think it's been happening for a while, and it's
interesting to me that there has not been a new
model that has been developed yet. I think we are
in the process of it, as you say, but I
think the gender roles have been so turned upside down
that often, you know, people don't know what they're That's
what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Yeah, And I think that there's also all kinds of
feelings around masculinity and femininity and like what roles you
play in the home that can be really hard for
people to reconize in the sense of, you know, they're like, oh,
my wife is the breadwinner, I feel unmasculated, or you know,
if a woman feels like well, I do x Y
and z, I don't feel like a woman, And I
(09:24):
think we just have to redefine what masculine and feminine
are and you know, kind of break some of these
really just like things that are not working. These patterns,
they're very very archaic, you know, and they just they
don't apply anymore. And I think what's happening is, you know,
a lot of women are doing all the labor they
were doing before and then on top of it also
(09:46):
being the breadwinner. And I think that's just, you know,
that's not sustainable.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
It's not sustainable because the home labor is unpaid labor. Yeah,
so we've got like one full time unpaid job and
one full time job job that actually owns the end.
So yeah, I am very curious how that is going
to play out when you choose to go on dates today.
Has your criteria for a Pontna changed and in what ways? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (10:12):
I mean I think that, you know, when I was younger,
I was less discerning about kind of what I what
I thought I needed in a partnership. I kind of like,
not in a in a bad way, just in a
very like swept up in romance type of way. Whereas
now and like I can enjoy romance without needing to
(10:35):
like live with someone and like build my life for
you know. So I think that I still have a
lot of romance in my life, but I'm just like
the person that I actually want to like live with
and build a life with. There are particular qualities or
just ethics or ideas that will have to also really
(10:55):
be in line in a way that when I was
in my early twenties I just never would have even
I just didn't know how to conceive of that.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
I mean, I was married and divorced by my first marriage,
I was eighteen, and then I was divorced by twenty two,
and I kind of felt like I saw a video
that you did talking about getting divorced before thirty, and
I was thinking, you know, for me, I got divorced
by twenty two and I had a kid and I
had been married, and it just gave me what I
(11:24):
was interested in, and a partner shifted because I no
longer needed to find someone to procreate with and I
was earning my own money, so I didn't need someone
to support my life. And then the choices that I
was able to make were really based on what are
you adding to my life? How is this additive? Because
I'm kind of I'm self supporting, I got a kid,
(11:46):
I'm good, I have amazing friends, I have emotional connections.
So if I'm going to date you, you really have
to be additive otherwise.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
I'm why it's so funny to use that word because
that's the word I use with my friends always. I'm like,
and it's not just where romantic interests or like men,
it's like with everyone, I'm like, just is this additive?
Is this? Does this make my life better? Because things
are kind of great and that's a great lace to
be in.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
I think you've spoken a lot about how your you know,
I guess your relationship to beauty. Do you think people
have been attracted to you based on the fantasy of
who they think you are as opposed to the reality
of you. I mean, I.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Think now that's something I reckon with more. But I
think women in general experience, like, you know, there's this
sort of like expectation to you know, be this kind
of like fimbought Barbie, and then it's like, hello, I'm
a real person who you know, has like all kinds
of emotions and needs and whatever. And I think that
(12:49):
that's something you know, a lot of women experience and
fem presenting people, but I feel that, you know, when
you actually have a genuine connection with somebody, you have
a genuine connection with them. And I'm always like a
little slow about letting new people into my life in general,
just because I think everyone should be that way. And
you know, I feel like time always shows what people
(13:11):
are actually interested in.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
So, yeah, I mean that's that. I always say to
my girlfriends that you can't really tell who someone is
until you're at least I mean, the very earliest six months,
but like give it a year, you know, and people
and when you have a kid. For me, that filter
always went through, like what I want this person to
meet my kid, because that's when I that's the litmus
(13:36):
test totalating.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
I think Fly is just like so wonderful. He's a
wonderful old person, and I want wonderful people around him
all the time as much as I can possibly control that,
which you know, you can't control everything, but definitely I
feel a responsibility and an obligation to the people that
I bring around side for them to be, you know,
(14:01):
the kind of people that I would want my child
to be influenced by.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Yeah, I have two daughters and a son, and I
feel like as a mother raising a son, I will
consider myself having done a great job if I can
put my son out in the world and whoever he
chooses to have a partnership with that they won't have
to raise him in the way that I've had to
(14:25):
raise so many people I've been in relationships with. Like,
I hope as a mom that I can put a
boy out in the world who you know, has a
respect and a care and an empathy for women in
a way that so many men don't unfortunately. And I
was wondering about your lens on what kind of boy
you're hoping to raise, knowing that we have their their
(14:47):
own people and they're going to be who they are,
you know, regardless.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Yeah, I mean, I'm really interested in him having a
couple of different things are really priorities to me. I mean,
I think like a strong sense of empathy, of accountability,
and then also like a political awareness of like power dynamics.
He is a blonde, white boy who will be raised
in New York City with you know, a lot of privilege,
and I think it's really important to me that he
(15:14):
has an awareness of the world and his position in it.
But you know, that's not something I'm like planning on
right now, but it's these are some of the things
I'm thinking about. I also think just like redefining masculinity,
Like I want my son to be able to express
emotions like cry and not feel like he's somehow less
of a man or less of a boy. So that
(15:36):
feels really important to me. And I think that, you know,
gen Z's definitely done a better job with that, and
I'm hoping that his generation even takes that a step further.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
Yeah, you know, one of the things that has always
frustrated me is that there is and you've spoken about
this as your desire to be heard as a writer,
that it's like women cannot be more than one thing either.
If you're sexy, you can't be small, and you definitely
can't be funny, sexy and smart. It's like there's a
(16:05):
kind of limited range that we're allowed to be. Do
you feel like your experience has shifted with that?
Speaker 2 (16:13):
I think that the world has changed a little bit.
I think having mediums, I mean, I think writing a book,
having a podcast, having like media like TikTok to be
able to be funny in a way that I just
never was able to be on Instagram is really helpful.
I think that people's attitudes are changing and there's sort
of a more of an acceptance and an understanding of
(16:36):
people in general as being three sixty and multi dimensional.
I think also, I just don't care as much about
people understating me or trying to put me in a box.
Feel like I have proven to myself that I am
all the things I want to be, and it just
feels like such blatant misogyny when people try to say
(16:56):
anything different that it just doesn't impact me.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
As much as they used to it.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Just like, yeah, I used to like really care, and
it used to be something that I wanted to really
you know, fight against, and now I just think for
my own happiness and also living by example, you know,
just being the example is more important than you know,
talking about it.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Yeah. I hope it changes for other people too, you know,
I really do, And I think you living that truth
is the best example that we can have, you know.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Yeah, I think that some part of me, you know,
in the past, would have been like, oh, this is
going to be confusing to people, and I'm you know,
marketing myself or I'm trying to build a career, and
you know, my livelihood is tied to this persona and
now I'm just like, I don't care if it confuses people,
They're going to have to deal with it. You know.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
It sounds like you just got to the point of
like letting go what isn't serving you.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Yeah, I think that's true.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
All right, let's talk a bit about the Icon campaign
that you're in as well as the Wings campaign. I
didn't realize, but this is actually the first time you've
walked with VS in your career.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Yeah, it's a full circle moment for me. Victoria's Secret
and that my subsequent rejection is in the book. And
I actually said this on the pink carpet at the
event they held for the World tour that you know,
there was a point where when we were shooting in
Barcelona and we went out to drinks a bunch of
(18:24):
the models and people I'm friends with and I have
worked together, and we realized that all of us, at
one point or another, had been rejected by fs in
the in the past.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Yeah, So I think it's cool that Victoria's Secret, you know,
has changed, and it's really a beautiful thing for me,
because you know, there was a moment where I did
want to be an angel. I wanted to be, you know,
one of those women they seen larger than life. And
then I sort of carved my own path that was
separate from having to do the show and do all
(18:53):
these things that I thought like that was the only
way to become a successful model. And you know, basically,
ten years later, they're calling me an icon, and you know,
they've come to me basically, and that that feels really
good personally, and also I feel like it says something
good about the world, the way the world's moving.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Yeah, what was your experience like working on the world
Tour with them?
Speaker 2 (19:16):
It was great. I mean again, like I said, there
were so many familiar faces there, some of my like
one of my closest friends was also doing the project
and we had a lot of fun.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
And what designer did you work with?
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Boo boo?
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Oh Yeah, she was amazing. I interviewed her for this.
Oh nice, Yeah, she was awesome. So what from that
experience of being in the World Tour, what would you
say is one of the most memorable moments for you?
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Oh? My god, I really enjoyed choosing the wings, putting
them on, and shooting with Carlene, which was separate from
the booboo. You know, all of that was also amazing.
But I think, you know, because as those wings represent
so much, and having that moment of choosing your own
and shooting with a female photographer who I think is
(20:08):
just one of the best photographers around right now, that
was just really special.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Yeah, because the wings mean something different today, yeah, than
what they used to do, I think, So, I think
the I mean, I've always one of the themes of
my life, of my book is always about control and choice,
and I think that for me, it's like the fact
that I got to.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Choose my wings, I got to choose what I wanted
to look like. That all of that, you know, sense
of control is is really important.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
I mean, I'm sure you have that that you have
more choice and ability to set boundaries in your career
just because of where you're at now. How has modeling
and that experience changed for you today as opposed to
you know, five years ago, Oh.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
My god, I mean so much, especially you know, tend
to Yeah, there's been different phases, but you know, I
think also the way that I've written and talked about
control has made people who work with me understand like
the importance of that stuff to me in a way
that's really gratifying and makes the whole thing easier. But
(21:17):
you know, the idea that there was like empowerment involved
in modeling when I was younger, Like any kind of empowerment,
I don't really like that word because I think it's
my us. Yeah, but like that was sort of you know,
it was the girl Boss feminism era and everyone was like, oh,
(21:38):
you know, and I felt there was power that what
I gained from, you know, like modeling and being beautiful
and being sexy and whatever. But it's so complicated, right,
It's like not that simple, and it's not I don't
think it's actually like real power in some ways when
you pay a high price for it. So now being
able to I mean just even talk about these things
(22:01):
and then also, you know, be creatively involved in the
projects that I do, I mean, it's really it's a
dream come true.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
It's interesting what you're saying about the illusion of beauty
and what you know, being a beautiful face and body
gives us and that it is an illusion in some way,
but it's it's weird It's like a double edged sword
because on the one hand, it is the biggest currency
in the world. You know, how desirable we are, that
(22:31):
is a very powerful currency, and yet it also it
can fall apart it it doesn't have true roots.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
I mean, I think for me, it's a line from
my book, and I'm gonna butcher it, but it's one
of the ones that when I wrote it, I was like,
that's it, which is that, you know, the men who
grant you power based on your desirability are the ones
who actually have power, and you are indebted to them,
which means that you don't have control, which means you
(23:01):
don't you can't be necessarily safe, and you can't and
you're certainly not in power because somebody else is basically
holding the puppet strings. And that's not something I realized
until I was, you know, older. But that, to me
is the issue with you know, using commodifying image and
beauty and sexiness and clout as a fem presenting person
(23:23):
like that's you. There's something about being looked at and
by you know, people deciding that they desire you that
actually gives them power in a way that I didn't
understand when I was younger.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
I think ultimately, if our image is the commodity, the
people who are running the companies and the corporations who
are funding our image being used are the ones who
still have the power, which is why we need more
women in positions of power to be able to make
those choices, which I actually don't see that having changed
(23:57):
too much of the lost ten years. A lot of
a lot of headlines about it, but not real change.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Yeah, unfortunately, a lot of in this particularly in fashion,
Like you know, they have diverse campaigns, but then nobody
is actually people of color, or women or trans people
or anybody is not controlling behind the scenes, and that
that's really where you know, the power is. So it's
nice to create an image that you know alludes to diversity,
(24:26):
but you need to have that means to be in
the leadership of these companies.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
And so often it's not and it's very transparent, and
it's you know, once you get behind the scenes in companies,
you see that that's often not the case. It's actually
one of the things that I looked into when I
decided to work with VS as well and saw how
many changes they were making on a leadership level and
on their board that I was like, Okay, this is
(24:51):
this is really encouraging because most companies talk a good game,
but they're not walking the talk. Yeah. So I have
one question for you, which is what does authenticity mean
to you?
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Living without watching yourself? And I mean that in an
any capacity. I think just like being authentic is living
without being overly concerned but of the perception of others.
So I think that's what that means to me. Thank you,
(25:25):
Thank you so much. Thank you for your time today.
I really appreciate it. It was great to see you.
I hope it to bump into you soon.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
We will. I'm sure you have been listening to VS Voices,
the official companion podcast to the VS World Tour. My
thanks to today's guest, and if you love our show,
please comment, like, and follow us wherever you listen to
your favorite podcasts, and as always, you can join me
amand Decadey on Instagram. VS Voices is part of Victoria's Secrets,
(25:57):
ongoing commitment to creating positive chain women together. We are
amplifying the voices and perspectives of women from all backgrounds,
and please remember that sharing stories brings us closer together.
Thank you for listening.
Welcome to VS Voices. I'm Amanda Decadey. Emily Ratikowski is
a model, writer, entrepreneur, and activist. In this interview, we
took about the last year in Emily's life, how she's
learning to heal, why she's speaking up about the rampant
misogyny in Hollywood, and what it's like to be back
in the dating pool as a mom, model and feminist.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
How are you.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
I'm good. How are you?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
I'm great.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
I haven't seen you in a long time.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I know it's been so long.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Oh my gosh, I don't know five years, right, probably.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
I was thinking about the last time we spoke or
I saw you, and I was thinking, my god, your
life has changed so much.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Yeah, because I remember kind of being actually Kamala Harris
fundraiser Marytos. I think it was last time.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Yep, that's the last time we saw each other and
you weren't married, you didn't have a kid, your whole
life was so different. Yeah. And then I read something
that you wrote, and I think I sent you a
text saying you're right. Thing is so good. You have
to do more of it.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Oh that's so sweet. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
When I look at kind of the last year for you.
I see that like a lot has changed in your life,
from you know, being married and then not married and
raising your kid. If you could sum up the last year,
what would you say that it has taught you overall?
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Oh my god, I don't know if I can do
an overall lesson. I just feel like I really grew
up in the past year. I mean, my son is
two and a half now, so I'm really just like
loving being a mother. I lived with my best friend
and my son, and you know, I really have just
(01:44):
kind of like a very independent lifestyle outside of you know,
taking care of him, and I really enjoy it. I
also started a podcast this past year that's I know,
that's yeah, three episodes a week, so that's been really crazy.
But I would say this has been like one of
the maybe favorite years of my entire life, which is
(02:07):
which is great. I've just been a surprise, honestly in
a lot of ways for me. If you had told
me maybe fifteen months ago that I would feel the
way I do, I wouldn't have believed you.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
How was that living with you a best friend? I
lived with my best friend for fifteen years, even while
I was married and she helped me raise my kids.
So I'm in big favor of that.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
I love it. I mean, I can't believe that it's real.
We've known each other since I was fourteen, and we
always used to talk about raising our children together, and
you know, would kind of be like, oh, when we're old,
ladies will finally be together because we always had boyfriends
and whatever. So having this time to live together and
especially with my son and kind of create a family
(02:50):
who's just been amazing.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
And how do you like doing the pubcast? What prompted
you to do that?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
It was really an extension from the book of just
kind of wanting to do more media, and I was
interested in the podcast space partly because I grew up
listening to NPR and I just felt like it was
something that I would be kind of naturally good at.
And it's been an amazing year. I'm really excited for
(03:18):
kind of like what's what I've learned in the past
year and what's going to happen. And it's new iteration,
but you know, it's very different than anything I've done
before in the sense we do three episodes a week
before that and any creative project I've ever done. It's
I'm kind of a perfectionist and I really like to
kind of, like, you know, make sure everything is exactly
(03:38):
how I want it to be. And when you're doing
three episodes a week, you can't do that. No, But
it's been kind of a good lesson in like finding
that balance and just making a lot of things. And
I mean, I really enjoy talking to people. I've gotten
to meet so many interesting people that are in particularly
women who that are in my industry, and hear from
(04:01):
them and connect to them, and that's been really incredible.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
And you're doing it three times a week. So do
you like, is this kind of the primary thing that
you want to do, because I can't imagine there's a
lot of time for other stuff.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
I mean, shockingly there is because I'm traveling so much
for work modeling, but it definitely takes more time than
I want to continue because i'd really actually like to
start writing again. And I also just think that for me,
I'm really interested in like video content, which we've started.
(04:33):
We've started posting the interviews on YouTube and that's really
kind of taken off. So I'm sort of I'm going
to be adapting what we've been doing for the past
year with the podcast and is something that's a little
bit more manageable so that I can get back into writing.
And also just like I'm constantly exhausted between having a
(04:53):
two and a half year old and then like traveling
at a moment's notice for modeling, and then also having
the podcast. It's just like it's too much.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Yeah, I know, I was saying to my husband last night.
I was like, I've been a mom since I'm eighteen
years old. I've been working since I'm fifteen years old.
Like I'm tired. Yeah, you know, like just or prioritizing,
It's like you have to prioritize at some point. It's
like you're prioritizing your kid and then it's your work,
and then you have to kind of move the priority around.
(05:22):
But I guess for myself, one of the things I
really learned in the last you know, couple of years
is that I have to move the priority to myself.
I have to make myself one of those buckets that
gets prioritized. Did you have you made any time for
yourself within this Yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Mean I think for the past maybe for the first
year after my separation, I was just like really interested
in being super social and like, you know, being single,
and so that was how I prioritized time for myself,
even if I was exhausted, you know, going out and
meeting people for a drink or whatever else. And now
(06:00):
I've sort of like shifted gears. I don't know if
it's just like where I'm at and my process or
my life, and I just really love like a cozy
night at home and honestly like going to sleep very
early and getting a great night sleep. It's not that
I do that every night. I just been doing that
a lot more. And that's kind of the self care
that I'm that I'm finding.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Yeah, I saw that you had interviewed asked the Parral
who I love. She was involved with my series The
Conversation in the beginning, and she's just profound, and I
wondered why you had chosen to interview her.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
I just love I love her books. I also think
she's a really interesting public figure in the sense that
men and women really both are super interested in what
she has to say, which isn't true for a lot
of people. I think there's like people who are like
the guys kind of person or the girls, and she
really kind of just everyone is interested, and I really
(06:57):
like her work, and I've seen a lot of her interviews,
and I was just kind of interested in some of
the things that she brushes up on, especially around like
power dynamics and relationships, but that she kind of, you know,
I would say, like she what she said to me
on the podcast is like, this could be a whole
other book, and I'm not ready to like totally, you know,
(07:19):
write that book. So I was really kind of excited
to kind of push the conversation forward a bit with
her because she has done so many PAD talks and
podcasts and interviews that Yeah, it was. It was great.
It's one of my favorite episodes.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Yeah, she's she's amazing. Have you read Mating and Captivity
one of her past books. Yeah, so good, isn't it.
How do you feel about marriage now?
Speaker 2 (07:46):
I feel that marriage can be beautiful. I think that
we are kind of in an interesting moment culturally around
partnership because women are making more money than they ever
did and men are not graduating from college as much.
So the sort of traditional gender roles that we associated
(08:07):
with marriage have just fallen apart. And you can see
all the data and the statistics, but you can also
kind of feel it in the zeitgeist that you know,
the traditional way of dividing labor in a home has
to shift because things have shifted in the world. And
I'm curious and excited to see, like what kind of
new models we come up with for partnership and for
(08:30):
a marriage that are more equitable. And you know, yeah,
I just think that there has to sort of there's
a little bit of a reckoning happening in that sense.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
I think it's been happening for a while, and it's
interesting to me that there has not been a new
model that has been developed yet. I think we are
in the process of it, as you say, but I
think the gender roles have been so turned upside down
that often, you know, people don't know what they're That's
what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Yeah, And I think that there's also all kinds of
feelings around masculinity and femininity and like what roles you
play in the home that can be really hard for
people to reconize in the sense of, you know, they're like, oh,
my wife is the breadwinner, I feel unmasculated, or you know,
if a woman feels like well, I do x Y
and z, I don't feel like a woman, And I
(09:24):
think we just have to redefine what masculine and feminine
are and you know, kind of break some of these
really just like things that are not working. These patterns,
they're very very archaic, you know, and they just they
don't apply anymore. And I think what's happening is, you know,
a lot of women are doing all the labor they
were doing before and then on top of it also
(09:46):
being the breadwinner. And I think that's just, you know,
that's not sustainable.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
It's not sustainable because the home labor is unpaid labor. Yeah,
so we've got like one full time unpaid job and
one full time job job that actually owns the end.
So yeah, I am very curious how that is going
to play out when you choose to go on dates today.
Has your criteria for a Pontna changed and in what ways? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (10:12):
I mean I think that, you know, when I was younger,
I was less discerning about kind of what I what
I thought I needed in a partnership. I kind of like,
not in a in a bad way, just in a
very like swept up in romance type of way. Whereas
now and like I can enjoy romance without needing to
(10:35):
like live with someone and like build my life for
you know. So I think that I still have a
lot of romance in my life, but I'm just like
the person that I actually want to like live with
and build a life with. There are particular qualities or
just ethics or ideas that will have to also really
(10:55):
be in line in a way that when I was
in my early twenties I just never would have even
I just didn't know how to conceive of that.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
I mean, I was married and divorced by my first marriage,
I was eighteen, and then I was divorced by twenty two,
and I kind of felt like I saw a video
that you did talking about getting divorced before thirty, and
I was thinking, you know, for me, I got divorced
by twenty two and I had a kid and I
had been married, and it just gave me what I
(11:24):
was interested in, and a partner shifted because I no
longer needed to find someone to procreate with and I
was earning my own money, so I didn't need someone
to support my life. And then the choices that I
was able to make were really based on what are
you adding to my life? How is this additive? Because
I'm kind of I'm self supporting, I got a kid,
(11:46):
I'm good, I have amazing friends, I have emotional connections.
So if I'm going to date you, you really have
to be additive otherwise.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
I'm why it's so funny to use that word because
that's the word I use with my friends always. I'm like,
and it's not just where romantic interests or like men,
it's like with everyone, I'm like, just is this additive?
Is this? Does this make my life better? Because things
are kind of great and that's a great lace to
be in.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
I think you've spoken a lot about how your you know,
I guess your relationship to beauty. Do you think people
have been attracted to you based on the fantasy of
who they think you are as opposed to the reality
of you. I mean, I.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Think now that's something I reckon with more. But I
think women in general experience, like, you know, there's this
sort of like expectation to you know, be this kind
of like fimbought Barbie, and then it's like, hello, I'm
a real person who you know, has like all kinds
of emotions and needs and whatever. And I think that
(12:49):
that's something you know, a lot of women experience and
fem presenting people, but I feel that, you know, when
you actually have a genuine connection with somebody, you have
a genuine connection with them. And I'm always like a
little slow about letting new people into my life in general,
just because I think everyone should be that way. And
you know, I feel like time always shows what people
(13:11):
are actually interested in.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
So, yeah, I mean that's that. I always say to
my girlfriends that you can't really tell who someone is
until you're at least I mean, the very earliest six months,
but like give it a year, you know, and people
and when you have a kid. For me, that filter
always went through, like what I want this person to
meet my kid, because that's when I that's the litmus
(13:36):
test totalating.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
I think Fly is just like so wonderful. He's a
wonderful old person, and I want wonderful people around him
all the time as much as I can possibly control that,
which you know, you can't control everything, but definitely I
feel a responsibility and an obligation to the people that
I bring around side for them to be, you know,
(14:01):
the kind of people that I would want my child
to be influenced by.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Yeah, I have two daughters and a son, and I
feel like as a mother raising a son, I will
consider myself having done a great job if I can
put my son out in the world and whoever he
chooses to have a partnership with that they won't have
to raise him in the way that I've had to
(14:25):
raise so many people I've been in relationships with. Like,
I hope as a mom that I can put a
boy out in the world who you know, has a
respect and a care and an empathy for women in
a way that so many men don't unfortunately. And I
was wondering about your lens on what kind of boy
you're hoping to raise, knowing that we have their their
(14:47):
own people and they're going to be who they are,
you know, regardless.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Yeah, I mean, I'm really interested in him having a
couple of different things are really priorities to me. I mean,
I think like a strong sense of empathy, of accountability,
and then also like a political awareness of like power dynamics.
He is a blonde, white boy who will be raised
in New York City with you know, a lot of privilege,
and I think it's really important to me that he
(15:14):
has an awareness of the world and his position in it.
But you know, that's not something I'm like planning on
right now, but it's these are some of the things
I'm thinking about. I also think just like redefining masculinity,
Like I want my son to be able to express
emotions like cry and not feel like he's somehow less
of a man or less of a boy. So that
(15:36):
feels really important to me. And I think that, you know,
gen Z's definitely done a better job with that, and
I'm hoping that his generation even takes that a step further.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
Yeah, you know, one of the things that has always
frustrated me is that there is and you've spoken about
this as your desire to be heard as a writer,
that it's like women cannot be more than one thing either.
If you're sexy, you can't be small, and you definitely
can't be funny, sexy and smart. It's like there's a
(16:05):
kind of limited range that we're allowed to be. Do
you feel like your experience has shifted with that?
Speaker 2 (16:13):
I think that the world has changed a little bit.
I think having mediums, I mean, I think writing a book,
having a podcast, having like media like TikTok to be
able to be funny in a way that I just
never was able to be on Instagram is really helpful.
I think that people's attitudes are changing and there's sort
of a more of an acceptance and an understanding of
(16:36):
people in general as being three sixty and multi dimensional.
I think also, I just don't care as much about
people understating me or trying to put me in a box.
Feel like I have proven to myself that I am
all the things I want to be, and it just
feels like such blatant misogyny when people try to say
(16:56):
anything different that it just doesn't impact me.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
As much as they used to it.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Just like, yeah, I used to like really care, and
it used to be something that I wanted to really
you know, fight against, and now I just think for
my own happiness and also living by example, you know,
just being the example is more important than you know,
talking about it.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Yeah. I hope it changes for other people too, you know,
I really do, And I think you living that truth
is the best example that we can have, you know.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Yeah, I think that some part of me, you know,
in the past, would have been like, oh, this is
going to be confusing to people, and I'm you know,
marketing myself or I'm trying to build a career, and
you know, my livelihood is tied to this persona and
now I'm just like, I don't care if it confuses people,
They're going to have to deal with it. You know.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
It sounds like you just got to the point of
like letting go what isn't serving you.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Yeah, I think that's true.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
All right, let's talk a bit about the Icon campaign
that you're in as well as the Wings campaign. I
didn't realize, but this is actually the first time you've
walked with VS in your career.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Yeah, it's a full circle moment for me. Victoria's Secret
and that my subsequent rejection is in the book. And
I actually said this on the pink carpet at the
event they held for the World tour that you know,
there was a point where when we were shooting in
Barcelona and we went out to drinks a bunch of
(18:24):
the models and people I'm friends with and I have
worked together, and we realized that all of us, at
one point or another, had been rejected by fs in
the in the past.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Yeah, So I think it's cool that Victoria's Secret, you know,
has changed, and it's really a beautiful thing for me,
because you know, there was a moment where I did
want to be an angel. I wanted to be, you know,
one of those women they seen larger than life. And
then I sort of carved my own path that was
separate from having to do the show and do all
(18:53):
these things that I thought like that was the only
way to become a successful model. And you know, basically,
ten years later, they're calling me an icon, and you know,
they've come to me basically, and that that feels really
good personally, and also I feel like it says something
good about the world, the way the world's moving.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Yeah, what was your experience like working on the world
Tour with them?
Speaker 2 (19:16):
It was great. I mean again, like I said, there
were so many familiar faces there, some of my like
one of my closest friends was also doing the project
and we had a lot of fun.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
And what designer did you work with?
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Boo boo?
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Oh Yeah, she was amazing. I interviewed her for this.
Oh nice, Yeah, she was awesome. So what from that
experience of being in the World Tour, what would you
say is one of the most memorable moments for you?
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Oh? My god, I really enjoyed choosing the wings, putting
them on, and shooting with Carlene, which was separate from
the booboo. You know, all of that was also amazing.
But I think, you know, because as those wings represent
so much, and having that moment of choosing your own
and shooting with a female photographer who I think is
(20:08):
just one of the best photographers around right now, that
was just really special.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Yeah, because the wings mean something different today, yeah, than
what they used to do, I think, So, I think
the I mean, I've always one of the themes of
my life, of my book is always about control and choice,
and I think that for me, it's like the fact
that I got to.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Choose my wings, I got to choose what I wanted
to look like. That all of that, you know, sense
of control is is really important.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
I mean, I'm sure you have that that you have
more choice and ability to set boundaries in your career
just because of where you're at now. How has modeling
and that experience changed for you today as opposed to
you know, five years ago, Oh.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
My god, I mean so much, especially you know, tend
to Yeah, there's been different phases, but you know, I
think also the way that I've written and talked about
control has made people who work with me understand like
the importance of that stuff to me in a way
that's really gratifying and makes the whole thing easier. But
(21:17):
you know, the idea that there was like empowerment involved
in modeling when I was younger, Like any kind of empowerment,
I don't really like that word because I think it's
my us. Yeah, but like that was sort of you know,
it was the girl Boss feminism era and everyone was like, oh,
(21:38):
you know, and I felt there was power that what
I gained from, you know, like modeling and being beautiful
and being sexy and whatever. But it's so complicated, right,
It's like not that simple, and it's not I don't
think it's actually like real power in some ways when
you pay a high price for it. So now being
able to I mean just even talk about these things
(22:01):
and then also, you know, be creatively involved in the
projects that I do, I mean, it's really it's a
dream come true.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
It's interesting what you're saying about the illusion of beauty
and what you know, being a beautiful face and body
gives us and that it is an illusion in some way,
but it's it's weird It's like a double edged sword
because on the one hand, it is the biggest currency
in the world. You know, how desirable we are, that
(22:31):
is a very powerful currency, and yet it also it
can fall apart it it doesn't have true roots.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
I mean, I think for me, it's a line from
my book, and I'm gonna butcher it, but it's one
of the ones that when I wrote it, I was like,
that's it, which is that, you know, the men who
grant you power based on your desirability are the ones
who actually have power, and you are indebted to them,
which means that you don't have control, which means you
(23:01):
don't you can't be necessarily safe, and you can't and
you're certainly not in power because somebody else is basically
holding the puppet strings. And that's not something I realized
until I was, you know, older. But that, to me
is the issue with you know, using commodifying image and
beauty and sexiness and clout as a fem presenting person
(23:23):
like that's you. There's something about being looked at and
by you know, people deciding that they desire you that
actually gives them power in a way that I didn't
understand when I was younger.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
I think ultimately, if our image is the commodity, the
people who are running the companies and the corporations who
are funding our image being used are the ones who
still have the power, which is why we need more
women in positions of power to be able to make
those choices, which I actually don't see that having changed
(23:57):
too much of the lost ten years. A lot of
a lot of headlines about it, but not real change.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Yeah, unfortunately, a lot of in this particularly in fashion,
Like you know, they have diverse campaigns, but then nobody
is actually people of color, or women or trans people
or anybody is not controlling behind the scenes, and that
that's really where you know, the power is. So it's
nice to create an image that you know alludes to diversity,
(24:26):
but you need to have that means to be in
the leadership of these companies.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
And so often it's not and it's very transparent, and
it's you know, once you get behind the scenes in companies,
you see that that's often not the case. It's actually
one of the things that I looked into when I
decided to work with VS as well and saw how
many changes they were making on a leadership level and
on their board that I was like, Okay, this is
(24:51):
this is really encouraging because most companies talk a good game,
but they're not walking the talk. Yeah. So I have
one question for you, which is what does authenticity mean
to you?
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Living without watching yourself? And I mean that in an
any capacity. I think just like being authentic is living
without being overly concerned but of the perception of others.
So I think that's what that means to me. Thank you,
(25:25):
Thank you so much. Thank you for your time today.
I really appreciate it. It was great to see you.
I hope it to bump into you soon.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
We will. I'm sure you have been listening to VS Voices,
the official companion podcast to the VS World Tour. My
thanks to today's guest, and if you love our show,
please comment, like, and follow us wherever you listen to
your favorite podcasts, and as always, you can join me
amand Decadey on Instagram. VS Voices is part of Victoria's Secrets,
(25:57):
ongoing commitment to creating positive chain women together. We are
amplifying the voices and perspectives of women from all backgrounds,
and please remember that sharing stories brings us closer together.
Thank you for listening.
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