July 7, 2022 • 53 mins
She has scaled the heights of PepsiCo, Apple, Uber, and Netflix—blazing a trail through boardrooms of some of the world’s most-successful companies. But it's been a hard climb, admits Bozoma Saint John, the marketing executive that companies keep on speed dial for radical solutions. In a refreshingly candid and searingly honest interview with host Amanda de Cadenet, ‘Boz’, as she is known, opens up about the pain that has shaped her, the energy that drives her, and the losses that have given her the empathy to achieve at the highest level. “The magic secret sauce? It’s human connection across everything,” she says. From her time as an Uber driver to what happened when Mary J. Blige interviewed Hillary Clinton, Boz takes us on a journey of a business life lived out loud—and shares her reflections of what that means to her now.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
My guest today is one of the most visible and
successful businesswomen in the United States. She has held senior
executive positions at Pepsi, Beats, Apple, Uber, Endeavor, and most recently, Netflix.
But honestly, it would just be easier to call her
by what she is at her core, a badass. I'm
speaking to Bosama St John or Bose, as she is
(00:21):
known by her friends, about the many triumphs and the
tragedies she has experienced on her journey. There's a there's
a lot we can talk about, but I've picked a
few things and one of them when I was thinking
about you, is you know, you've worked in American corporate
world for most of your career, and yeah, you're definitely
(00:42):
someone who thinks outside of the box. And you've created
opportunities for yourself and you've really rewritten the rules. And
I'm wondering how that has worked for you within the
confines of corporate America. Mm hmm, woof. That is a calm,
aplicated questions, you know, I mean, listen, you don't you
(01:04):
don't know me, but I go in for the stuff.
I like it. I like it. I like it. It's
complicated because our definitions of success or making it work
very so much, right. I think somebody on the outside
looking in at me would be like, holy sh it,
she's highly successful because I look at my resume, to
(01:24):
look at the titles, though you know, the companies will
say that is a successful person who has done it
her way. Um. And I look backwards in my career
and I see all of the shards, all the sharp edges,
(01:45):
you know. Um that what I thought success was gonna
look like is not the road I've been on. Yeah,
that I think I've done well. I'm proud of yours,
you know, like I'm like, girl, yeah you did it
or you're doing it right. But gosh, couldn't have come
(02:08):
without the struggle, without the pain of it, without the
like trying to fit in and then being rejected and
then trying it again someplace else and then being rejected
and then you know what I mean, That doesn't that
doesn't feel like success. So I think it's it's like
there are definitions are so different in how we perceive
(02:29):
having made it or that success that when I look
at it, I look at myself, I'm like, yeah, you've
done it all right, But I don't. I don't look
at it in a romanticized way. I've often thought about
about what would my career trajectory have looked like if
I hadn't have had to fight so hard, Like if
(02:52):
I didn't have to expend that energy to what it
took to a forge your path where one didn't exist, Yes,
it would have been different, because that's exhausting. On top
of doing the job, you've got to forge the path. Yes, yes.
I have a really good friend who, um her name
is Vivian Kate, and she has this expression like what
(03:16):
would Chad do? She's a black woman and uh an entrepreneur.
You know, it's like that that's like the hardest thing, right,
And she said she always you know, to like give
herself a little more like you know, or like you know,
some ballsiness, just like what would Chad do in this situation?
You know? And I don't even think about that. And
I'm like, yo, if I was Chad, who would my
(03:37):
career look like? For me? It's been it's been difficult
to get to do something that's so few women get
to do. I mean when I look at what I do,
so if you few women like have their own shows
or get to interview people on primetime television or whatever.
And certainly for you, it's like you got hired by Beats, Uber, Netflix, Apple,
(04:03):
like these are some of the biggest companies in the world,
so you repeatedly got hired by them. So something is
obviously working, right, But we're talking about we're talking about
the journey, and so the journey to get there. And
then I was also thinking, you obviously come into a
company to do what BOWS does really really well, they're
(04:24):
hiring you for a reason, right, But but how is
it when you get in there and how do you
handle resistance when you're pushing for a company to head
in a certain direction? Tonal politics don't support that vision.
So you got you signed up for a job and
you're like, yeah, I'm here to do what BOWS does.
But then you get in there, it's like, okay, maybe
this isn't so easy. How do you handle that resistance? Right?
(04:47):
R Right? Well, you know, it's so interesting because like
when I think about the idea of like, you know, well, gosh,
doing what I do right and doing it very very well,
which is the only reason, by the way, that I've
been able to be in the company's or you know,
have these titles, right, it does take me back to
(05:10):
this thought. They're like, oh, well, if I was somebody else,
how would this work? Right? Because look, the truth is,
and look all of us are sometimes afraid to say
it openly, which is that I do have to be
ten times better. I do more brilliant. I have to
be sharper, have to be faster, I have to be
more intuitive, I have to be wittier. I have to
be sharper, you know. Sometimes I have to be meaner
(05:34):
and reif and resilient. Yes, resilient and resourceful, you know.
Because to your question, it's like when I come into
a new company, or by the way, if strategy strategy
changes inside of the company, I'm laden and the job changes,
because that happens to a lot of us. Right, You're
(05:54):
doing one job and then avis and it's like, oh
the business is going this way, we need to go
over here, you know. And you're now forced to have
to figure out new strategy, new ways of execution, and
you have to take a whole bunch of people with you.
You have to become resourceful, figure out who the allies are, right, uh,
in a constantly shifting environment. And I'm not a stranger
(06:19):
to having to reintroduce myself. You know. I really did
like jump up with recognition when I first heard that
jay Z lyric, you know, allowed me to reintroduce myself.
My name is Bows, you know, and I'm like, yeah,
let me just tell you just one more time, you know,
because you may not be aware. And it is that
(06:39):
kind of process. You know. When I was a kid,
my parents moved around a lot, you know, I was,
I was moving from country to country like your families
originally from Ghana, uh. And I used to reintroducing yourself
every city to every city I want to. I had
to tell people how to say my name right, you know,
because look, that's kind of stuff is important. You know,
(07:02):
you want your identity to be respected, and you want
people not to just casually call you whatever they want,
you know, And and that, even though sounds superficial, it
is absolutely deeply rooted in your own self worth and
how people view you. You know. It's like all of
it stems from that. I mean, even you, even you
saying that you welcome the opportunity to reintroduce yourself because
(07:26):
you're oose. That comes from the knowledge that you are
you and that you bring what you bring to the
table and that you're you're you. That's right, that's right,
and people have to buy into that. You know. It's
like any It's like any kind of relationship that you
would forge. It's the same when you enter any new
environment of a company and you have to take a
(07:47):
lot of people with you. They have to believe you,
you know. So this isn't so much like you know,
like a dictator or loteal terian where you come in
and you say this is my way or the highway.
You know, it's like some of it is true, but
any good leader knows that you have to also do
the balance. It's a very delicate balance of taking in information,
(08:10):
making sure people feel like they're heard, and then also
giving directions so that they know that, oh, you know
where the hell you're going, but you listen to me,
and therefore I can trust that you're going to take
that information and make the right call. But so the
combination of those things. But do you do you often
feel like you you already know what it is you're
doing and that you just have to listen to people
(08:32):
to be polite. Or is it that actually know people
have some great ideas that are additive to to the
vision that I have. Yeah, no, I think that's the
first the first way to failures. If you actually think
you already know the answer, There's no way, I don't
care how brilliance you are, there's no way you come
into a new company and new organization and feel like
you already have the answer. You may have an idea
(08:55):
of what to do, but like I'll give you a
perfect example. When I joined Uber, it was at the
height of the delete Uber craziness that happened to the company.
Right one day, it was like Silicon Valleys Darling. The
next day it was like in the Shifter, you know,
and it was everywhere. But was that let's get Box exactly.
(09:16):
Like she's the fixer, you know, she's the grand guru.
Get her in here, let her turn this thing around.
And I'm like, yeah, you know, this is what I do.
Like I'm great at that. I have good instincts, So
I come in I already have a sense of of
what the issues are. Right, It's like there's a lot
of issues of trust, you know, Like people would say, oh, well, no,
they want, you know, to see these numbers of people
(09:37):
over here, and they want these policies over here. I'm like, no, no,
they don't trust you. That's the problem. They don't trust you.
And so it's like, okay, I have some ideas of
what it's gonna take, but I didn't know the experience
of being a driver, right, which was a complete outlier
to me. I knew, of course, what it felt like
to be a passenger and a writer. I knew what
(09:58):
it was like to be now an executive inside of
the company and understand the atmosphere and the culture. But
I had no idea what it meant to be a
driver totally. Of course. Yeah, I drove all of them.
I drove were accept uberpool, we're black. I drove all
of them, so I could better understand from the perspective,
like why do you do this? What was your experience?
(10:21):
Oh man, it was so it was so eye opening.
I swear like it was so incredibly eye opening. First
of all, I didn't I didn't appreciate how terrifying it is.
Two by the way, just take away the woman thing
and the black thing. Okay, it's like, how terrifying. I
can try, but but how terrifying is for anyone um
(10:44):
to pick ups a stranger, know an address, try to
follow a map, look at the directions. Know that they're
staring at the back of your head because behind this
I can't see them. And they're bringing all the energy.
You know. It's like maybe they're sad, maybe they're upset
at somebody else is gonna take it out on you.
Maybe they're excited, they're in a hurry. Maybe they want
(11:05):
you to take it slow. You don't know what you're
gonna get. And somebody brings all that energy into the car.
Now you gotta be almost like a counselor who, by
the way, not talking to them because they don't want
you to talk to them. Right, do not do not
talk to me, right, I don't even look at me.
Don't look at my in my direction. You know, you've
(11:25):
got all these things going on with this other person.
But then you also have your own reasons for driving. Right.
Perhaps it's that, like you know, you're trying to save
money to go to college, you're trying to buy a
new house, or maybe you're just trying to put dinner
on the table, you know, but you've got all of
these things happening. Oh, by the way, your own emotions,
the ship that happened to you, you know, so It's
like understanding for me what was going to be the
(11:50):
connector point between drivers and writers to build trust between
those two people was actually the magic to turning around
the trust for the company out. I would never have
known that, can I not said at the driver's seat, never,
not a million years? And how did you do that?
How did you do that? Well? First, it was about
humanizing the drivers, you know, because people writers take them
(12:18):
for granted, you know, they abuse them, they think they're
not they're lesser than them, don't see them as people. No,
not at all, you know. And in fact, one of
my favorite cohorts, uh was what I end up calling
the mom me drivers, the ones who had like toddlers
at home, um, their stay at home moms who would
(12:39):
drop off their kids at like daycare or something like that,
you know. And the problem with daycare, especially in the US,
is that it's like, you know, four hours long or
something like what in the hell you're supposed to do
for hours? But not enough money to pay for daycare?
I mean exactly, and not have time to do anything else.
But they would drop off the kid at daycare, um,
they would run a few errands and then they would
(13:01):
pick up writers on the on like in between and
therefore make some money also, yeah, and then when that
was done, they go pick up the kid and go
home like and it was just so fascinating cause I'm like,
what is that about? Right? Some of it was about freedom,
Some of it was about you know, having their own
self possessed ways to earn um. Some of it was
about distraction. You know, there was all kinds of me,
(13:24):
get out of my house, change whatever. But it's like,
how do you for me? It was then creating stories
about the drivers, right, And I did it in big
ways and small ways. I I partnered with Lebron, James
Um and Kevin Durant, who at the time were the
captains for the All Star Game, and the thought was, Okay,
(13:45):
we're gonna put them in the car. They're gonna talk
to a driver. The driver was Carrie Champion, who is
a good friend and a sports journalist, and have them
talk about anything that they want to talk about. And
it was the first time that Lebron talked about what
it's like to be a black man in America, even
when you're wealthy. And the time when he had the
(14:07):
n words sprape paid it across his gate and he
had to explain to his son's why that was, you know,
and Carrie is sitting in the driver's seat, She's trying
to pay attention, you know, make turns, get him to
where he's going, and he's like divulging all of this
very deep stuff, you know, and it's like, I think,
what what was happening? Is you watched that was? Like
(14:28):
you know, if someone of that stature, you know, can
get in and I'm not encouraging that everybody become a counselor,
but it's like it was somebody like that can get
in and trust the driver with this very valuable piece
of information, then isn't that driver also human? Like shouldn't
should't we be also interested? Like it's a it's a
very um you know, it's a it's like a it's
(14:51):
like a relationship that deserves a return. Yeah, And that
was successful, right, that repositioning highly successful? How do you
know what to do in a company? Because these are
not small companies. These are not like mom and pop
start ups here or whatever. These are giant companies with
(15:13):
you know, massive investment and publicly owned some of them. Like,
how do you know what to do? How are you
so intuitive with coming into these places and being able
to create narratives that are based in humanity, but ultimately
speaking a language which isn't part of a company principle.
Yeah yeah, well actually you just you just said what
(15:34):
the magic secret sauces is human connection. You know, across everything,
there is no company, successful, big global that is not
connected to humans. You know that doesn't behave like human
and like the emotions that we have, you know, and
so that is part of it. But how do I
(15:56):
do it? Or how would an executive do it? Right
to come in and know what to do? I don't
mean an executive, I mean you, because you are very
specific with your right. But the answer is still the same,
which is that you have to have a balance of
vulnerability and a lot of humility, you know, and the
vulnerability allows you to actually not know the answer and
(16:17):
go ceartain for it. Because again I think the biggest
issue you know that a lot of people would face,
which sometimes I have also been guilty of, is arrogant,
you know, thinking that you already know the answer when
you're totally misguided. That's how people fall, you know that,
And that's how like campaigns go bust when you think
(16:39):
you know the answer. By the way, like I said,
I'm not immune to that. I've certainly had my my
times where I've been like, oh, you know what, that's
exactly what the people need. It's exactly what they want
to hear, and then you did it didn't work out.
There's been lots of times, so it was just like, oh,
that was a disaster. That was what's an example of that? God? Uhm,
(17:01):
we think of a good one. Um, I know, I know,
I know a good one. God. Okay. So so I
was at Apple. We have just launched appele music for
like the second time. It's going great now, right, everything's
gople music was reintroducing itself. Yes, exactly after a year
like the first year, you know it was a little rocky.
(17:22):
Second year, Bam, we're out here. Okay, things are great.
And Mary J. Blige, who is happens to be a
good friend but also obviously a talented artist, UM, was
trying to find new things to do. You know, so
like obviously we know her as a beautiful musician and singer, UM,
(17:42):
but she wants to also flex a little bit in
different creative areas. And because we had the opportunity to
do some TV you know, with like there was content
beginning to be made at Apple that felt like, okay,
we could plug into that. Um. She really had the
desire on her heart to do with talk show, which
by the way, brilliantly called what's the four one one?
(18:05):
I mean, come on, so clever, so witty. Uh. And
it was great because the idea was, Okay, she's gonna
have these very personal conversations with friends of hers. So
we had a list of the people. You know, she
was lots of cool friends. Jayla was on the list.
That's like great people on the list. And then she said,
you know what, as like her first episode that she
(18:26):
didn't want to talk to any of her so called friends. Yeah,
because it's very hard to interview your friends. Yeah, well
that part all. She wanted to talk to Hillary Clinton,
who at the time was running for president of the
United States of America. I actually did that interview. I thought,
oh my god, like this is just like how even
(18:48):
first of all, how are you even going to get
the interview? You know, because every every journalist wanted to
interview her either she was turning down things left and right. No,
I I actually bouse I did that interview I did
the first announcement with Hillary when she was running. Yeah,
Oh my god. And by the way, I don't know
how I got it either. I just I campaigned for
that thing, and I got it exactly like the hottest ticket.
(19:08):
There was no way we were going to get that interview,
you know, but we wrote the brief, you know, sent
the pitcheon and she accepted, and so uh she flew in.
You know, Mary prepared like she prepared better than I've
seen anybody prepared for anything. You know, she looked great,
(19:29):
she had great questions, she practiced for it, she sounded awesome.
Day came Mary's sitting in her seat. She does the
interview of her life like it is remarkable. Hillary talks
about her mother, she talked, she talked about things that
she never talked about, like it was. It was phenomenal.
And in the interview, at some point, um, because you know,
(19:51):
we had been talking about police brutality and blackness and
the challenges. Uh, Mary went down the path of asking
her about that what her opinion was, and she referenced
the song um called American Skin Um and by Bruce Springsteen,
by the way, an amazing song. But she decided to
(20:13):
do a rendition of it acapella, and so here I am,
you know, backstage, like off to the side. Now, father,
this sounds really good, by the way, everything is great
like she does. And when I tell you that this
renbition like Mary, this is why she's such a brilliant artist.
She was sitting down. You know how hard it is
(20:34):
to sit the same when you're sitting sitting down. She
had not warmed up, there was no rehearsal. She even
had water like and Homegirl sang this song from the
depths of her soul and it was like she she
that nickname that she has a queen of so like
she she killed it, crushed it and even to the
(20:55):
point where Hilary had tears in her eyes. Everybody was crying,
We all had boosebumps. Was great. So then it's time
to market the show, right, and I'm like, I know
exactly what I'm doing. I'm not doing the regular sizzle
like you know, with like the sound bites and the
and then the you know, cool graphics. I'm not gonna
do that. I'm just gonna use a bit of that
(21:15):
moment where Mary sang because it was powerful and we've
never seen Hillary cry of course you want to see that. Yes,
so cut that into thirty second commercial, sixty second commercial,
and let that joint rip. And it was a disaster.
It was a disaster. It was a disaster because for
(21:38):
black people, they felt that Mary was doing what is
called like shocking and driving performing for white people, you know,
doing the thing where it's like Mary, like, you've got
Hillary Clinton, who is just a story politician, brilliant woman,
(22:02):
change maker, activists, feminist, and you're just gonna sit there
and sing for two dollars, Like is that what you're
gonna do? And they murdered her, killed her, all of her.
I mean, it was a disaster that, like Twitter was going,
you know what happens when it's like it just starts railroading.
It was terrible. It was terrible, and I felt awful.
(22:26):
I mean it was it was such a fail. It
was such a fail because I I felt in the
room right, I had felt the goose bumps. I knew
what happened, I knew the magic. I had misread what
the culture was going to demand of Mary. And so
sometimes it's like, look, I I I think I know
pop culture really well. I think I'm one of the
(22:48):
most intuitive marketers because of that reason, Like I pay attention,
I'm reading the room, I'm like feeling the air. Which
way is it going? You know, I'm not waking up
and just writing strategy that's gonna be executed eight months
from now. I'm waking up on the eighth month and saying,
what's happening outside? You know? And I missed and it was.
It was so terrible because you know, Mary was in
(23:09):
a tough time in her life also, um and I
felt like personally probably let her down in a in
a major way, not just professionally, but personally, And you know,
it was it was a really hard thing to come
out of her show. Didn't make it, you know, for
for various reasons, but that was one of them. And
it was one of the greatest mistakes I think of
my career. Thank you for sharing that with such honesty
(23:32):
and vulnerability. I think it is so important for people
to know that everybody fails. Everybody fails. It is not
to do with not failing. It is what do you
do after that failure? Exactly exactly, because by the way
you are allowed to feel all the feelings. You know,
(23:56):
it's like, I'm not going to pretend like I was
some bulletproof person who's went to sleep that night and
then woke up the next day into that you know what,
dust myself off, you know, fall down seventh stand up bait. Right,
So it happened. I was scared. I was terrified. I
was sad, I was embarrassed. You know, I had all
of games, all of that huge shape. How do you
(24:18):
walk in, you know, into the next meeting, into the
next campaign. How do you sit across the table from
another artist and promise that you will deliver? You know?
And I thinking, oh, why, so what happened to mary Ja?
And you're the brilliant marketer who's supposed to handle my campaign?
Oh no, yeah, you know, and then by the way,
second guessing every decision after that, because you're not long.
(24:41):
It's a long process to heal it is. Yeah, gosh,
I'm listening to that story, and I'm thinking about how
you started your career. Your first paying job was as
a phone operator for a T and T. Oh my god,
how did you even get that? See, you're a great journalist,
(25:02):
this is why so hell do you even know that?
Because I did my research on you. Bos amazing, You're amazing.
That was really fascinating to me. That was your first job.
Can you imagine, Oh my god, do you think they
even do you think they even know that? I don't
think they know that. There's no way they know that
watch a T N T is going to come off
(25:23):
to you tomorrow to be because as far as I know,
you don't have I don't know if you have something
else lined up, But watch a T N T is
gonna come off? Wouldn't that be the story? Right? They?
Like I started out my very first job like sitting there, Hello,
A T and T. How can I help you? You
know you still got it? I still got it, still
got the cadence. I mean, look, I helped all kind
(25:46):
of people and by the way, just to date myself,
when operators really were necessary to connect international calls, that
was that was what I was doing. Imagine that invaluable.
I mean, like, come on, I spoke to people from
all kind of places, you know, connected them to their
loved ones. And then you know you'd have to stay
on the line to make sure that the connection here
(26:08):
conversations oh yeah all the time. Oh yeah, you would.
You would have to stay to make sure it actually connected.
That they that they began their conversation and then you
could drop. It was part of the training, you know,
So yeah, I heard all I heard all kind of stuff.
I mean it was like, you know, somebody connects in
the first hello, they start screaming or they cry, or
they ask something mundane, and you can tell the tremor
(26:30):
and their voice that they there's actually something really important
they have to talk about. You know, it's like picking
up all of those humans. You're so observing and intuitive,
and it's it's like I'm hearing your your intuition with
human behavior and how deep that is. And to have that,
to have that level of empathy into and intuition, most
(26:51):
people who have that have experienced a lot of a
wide range of emotional things themselves. And when I was
reading about you, I was taken with how much loss
you've experienced in your life, and starting with well, I
don't know if this was the first loss, but certainly
your daughter Eve was born prematurely at seven months and
(27:14):
did not survive. And then your husband, you know, died
from cancer, and that was both within a few years
of each other. And I was I'm so sorry that
you had both of those experiences, and um, and I'm
wondering how those losses have shaped you. And I know
(27:38):
that's a really big question. Yeah, yeah, but it's it's um,
I'm sorry, Bose. Can I just ask you? Are you
comfortable with me asking? Okay? Yes, yes, yes, yes? Um.
You know because I I say this to um my
team's all the time too, you know, people that I
work with that And I know it's like hard for
(28:02):
people sometimes to bring their full selves, you know, to situations.
But I find it almost impossible, you know, to be
two or three people at the same time. You know.
It's like I'm a I'm a better executive because I'm
a widow. You know, I'm a I'm more empathetic because
(28:24):
I have suffered the loss of a child prematurely. You know, um,
my college boyfriend committed suicide and left me the voicemail,
you know, like the my understanding of grief is so complicated,
(28:47):
the different types. Yes, and so I think I'm a
I'm a better human because of those experiences. And that's that's. Look.
Let's taken a lot of therapy in order to be
able to say that. Yeah, and I understand what you're saying,
and that is why observing your intuition and your empathy.
I knew that you must have had experiences in your
(29:10):
life that challenged you to keep your heart open. Yes, yes,
and you know, very much like what we were just
talking about with UM the whole like, you know, get
knocked down seven stand up bait. It's you know, the
process of keeping your heart open is like an active choice. Yes,
(29:31):
it's an active choice. It's an everyday choice, sometimes moment
to moment choice. You know that, Um, being not unafraid
because that's the wrong expression, but being brave enough to
save you know what, This could end horribly, you know,
(29:52):
something devastating and terrible could happen. But I've got to
go anyway. I've got to still be any way. It
has given me some freedom, actually, ah, because I've been
at the very bottom multiple times, multiple times in different ways,
(30:13):
because they're different bottoms. We didn't know that. I didn't
know that. Yeah, there's a lot of them who knew, Like,
oh my god, another one. Yes, it's like, you know,
there's like the seven stages of hell. Yes, there are
probably at least at least there are lots and lots
and lots, you know, there is and and by the way,
it's not just even grief in like the death of
(30:35):
a person, but grief in the loss of trust, of
the loss of another type of relationship, or lots of
dream or identity, all of those things. They are different griefs,
you know. And and I have been at the bottom
of so many of them that I now feel more
free in my life because I know that I can
(30:57):
survive those things. It is much different. And I think
if you have not been there because you're afraid of
the thing you can't see, You're afraid of the thing
that seems like so like it's not fat like the
worst thing that you can imagine that's happened, and you
have survived this exactly, It's exactly right. It's like, yeah,
(31:18):
what if the worst thing happens. What if the worst
thing happens, then what And I have been there already,
and so now it allows me to live life in
a much more free way. It doesn't mean that I
am unafraid. It doesn't mean that I'm not concerned. It
doesn't mean that when my daughter goes to the mall
(31:38):
that I'm not calling her every fifteen minutes to see
how she's doing. She probably hates you know what, I'm saying, like,
you know, it doesn't stop me from doing those things,
but I am a freer person because I understand that
should the worst thing happen, I will still survive. I'll
still be here, and not only survive, but you can
(32:00):
also thrive within that, which I think is really important. Yes, right, yeah,
And it's important for us to see people who have
been who have faced the abyss multiple times and who
have stood back up. However long that process took, by
the way, And that's fine that part, because it can
(32:22):
take a very long time and you need help also, yess.
That is crucial, whether professional or you know, with people
who care about you, who have the right intention you know,
like I've had lots of lots and lots and lots
of help, you know, and and trying to find the
people who will help has also been tricky, right because
(32:47):
you said with the right intentions. Yes, because people can
love you and advise you horribly well, they may not
have resolved their own stuff, so that ends through which
they're giving you that guidance can be that's right, that's right,
But then they will put their own fear in you too, right,
very much, so it will say the things that You're like, wait,
(33:08):
but I'm sorry. I thought you were supposed to give
me encouragement, you know, And they're like, no, I'm just
trying to protect you. I'm just trying to help you.
I'm trying to help you think of all of the
scenarios and what I already think of him and and
whatever you mentioned already thought of that too, exactly exactly.
But so it's I I just, um, I wish those
things hadn't happened to me, by the way I wish
(33:30):
they had it. I wish I was saying here telling you,
you know, more flower coverage stories. Um, but I am.
I am grateful that I not only survived, as you said,
but able to thrive in spite of it. Yeah, you certainly, uh,
thank you, thank you for sharing that insight and wisdom. Um.
(33:55):
You know I I actually have noticed on your social
media how you regularly speak about your husband who died,
and you wore his wedding ring to your daughter's birthday
so that she could know that he's always by her side.
And I thought that was so beautiful and so powerful,
and I wanted to ask you, how else do you
(34:16):
keep your late husband's memory alive for your daughter. Yeah, well,
you know what's so interesting. Um, I don't even know
how to put this. Um, I don't think I ever.
I don't think I ever packed him away. Mhm you know. UM,
I'm really like in this moment trying to think about
(34:40):
I don't think I ever, did you know? Because she
was four when he passed away. And by the way,
talking about people to support you, I had a very
very good friend who happens to be a um um
psychologist who said, you know that I should be on
a with Leele, you know, tell the truth of things,
(35:04):
use the big words, use the real words. It was.
It was just the most like life changing advice because instinct,
you know, as a parent, is to protect anything that
would make him sad or afraid or anything. Right, But
it was the best piece of advice because it allowed
me to be honest with her. And by the way,
I think it's it's been so healthy for our relationship
(35:26):
because then she can also be completely transparent with me
were you're giving her permission and you're role modeling it
for her. And so when he died, and even in
the process of his dying, we were very transparent, very
honest in those conversations, and so I feel like after
he passed away, I didn't have to hide any of
(35:49):
the things, and so I talked about him very actively
and I still do. You know. It's especially like as
she started to develop her personality, you know, or things
would happen and I'd be like, there's no way you
would know that, like that your dad does that, you know,
Like that happens all of the time. Like the way
(36:10):
she sits cross legged is exactly like him. I freaks
me out. It's very very weird, you know, or like
it sometimes like an expression she will use, or a
way she looks at me. I'm telling you, I literally
like your dad did, Why are you doing that? You don't?
And I mean some of it to her, And sometimes
(36:31):
sometimes it causes me pain, you know. Sometimes it's like
a little pain where I'm just like, man, like I
can't believe the man is no longer here, you know,
but you missed him, Oh yes, in that moment very
much so. But I think it also has the dual
effect of like keeping him very alive for her. Um
sometimes it brings her a lot of joy, you know,
(36:53):
to know that, like, oh, well, you know, I like
my dad. You know, but just like her. Yeah, but
my name, yeah, Leo, Leo. I love seeing the videos
that you share with her because you're sharing all of
your wins, you're sharing all of your successes, You're sharing
(37:16):
your life with her in a way that is so
um inclusive. And she's your daughter so obviously, but you
know what, no, not obviously. A lot of parents don't
do that. And and you can see, like in a
recent post, you said that if she wasn't your daughter,
you would want to be her friend. And I feel
like that about my big daughter. I was a mom
(37:37):
when I was nineteen years old, so I have a
grown up daughter and I feel like that. I'm like,
if you want my kid, I don't want to be
friends with you, because you're an awesome woman, you know,
and the bond you have with your daughter is so
clear and so powerful. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it really is.
I I so enjoy our relationship ship. Um. You know,
(38:01):
it's very different from my relationship with my mom. Well
in that um and by the way, I think the
my idea of motherhood is different, you know, but I
think maybe and I won't speak for everybody, of course,
but she grew up in a time and with a
mother who was very strict on her, you know, who
(38:23):
was not her friend. Uh. And so my mom then
tried to evolve that right and say, okay, I'm your mom,
but I also want to get to know you better,
you know, as as more than just this mother daughter relationship.
But that was also fraught with that's a complicated boundary.
It's a very complicated boundary, it is, you know, but
(38:45):
I don't think she understood exactly how to navigate it
also because it hadn't been modeled for her, and so
she she's the first generation of mother. That's that's looking
at parenting differently. It's also a generational thing. And so
now it's like I'm looking at my daughter right, especially
when she was born and then going through this um
you know, with losing her father and my husband. It's
(39:08):
it was it was transformational because I was like, man,
I want to I want to make sure that we're
able to be super transparent with each other because I
want to know what's going on. I want to know
what she's thinking. I want to know how to help.
I want to know how to advise without losing the
role of mother, right. And so it's why like I
(39:30):
do emphasize the fact that I am her mother first.
I am her mother, you know, but that in another dimension,
in another world, you know, different circumstances, I would actually
want to be her friend because she is an awesome
person like your daughter, Like you said, you know, she's
an awesome person. She's so cool, she's so funny, and
she's so kind. So I absolutely would want somebody like
(39:52):
that in my life. Yeah, that's the best compliment that
we can really pay all do it is right? Yes, yes,
it's true. You recently left a role at Netflix and
you worked at some of the like I said, some
of the biggest companies in the world. And I'm curious,
what is inspiring you, what is exciting you? What are
the challenges professionally that you haven't been able to tackle yet,
(40:14):
Like where is your heart and your head out with
what you want to do? Yeah? Now, isn't that the
like grand questions? It's a big one. It's a big one,
you know. So here here's the truth of it. Um,
because we're now besties anyway. Uh yeah. From jump it
was like, yes, okay, we're up the same tribe. Yes,
(40:39):
you know, I um, this this moment feels so different
for me than any other transition I've ever made, you know,
I mean even even like taking it all the way
back to the beginning of my career when I when
I was in college, I was pre mad. I thought
I was in medical school, you know, I did all
the things, and then I took a year off you know,
(41:01):
in between, and stumbled into this career basically. Um, and
even that transition doesn't feel like this, and that was
really scary. This is super super scary because the choice
I have is to continue doing what I've been doing,
which is fine, right, I've done the things, Like you said,
(41:22):
I've been at lots of big companies. By the way,
there are other big companies, and yes, they would they
would like somebody like me there. That'd be fine. I
could do that. Um, I could do something else, That's
what I'm saying, which is super super scary, you know.
And so right now I'm in that pivot, that inflection point,
(41:44):
and I have been thinking so much about, you know,
my own sort of destiny, the feeling of where I
want to do. Trying not to put logic in there
feels right, yes, yes, but it's so hard to do that.
You know. It's like it's really really tough. And I
(42:06):
have always made jumps and transitions and all of that
just because of a feeling, you know. I like, when
I went to Uber, I was like why, Like literally
everybody was like, why would you do it? Why? You're
an Apple, You're doing so well. I had come off
the keynote. It was like everybody was like, Oh, You're
the next big thing in Silicon Valley. And then here
(42:27):
I go down to this tumbling, crumbling company. That was
so you know, it's like but I felt it like
I was like, No, that's where I'm supposed to be.
I have to go there. I know that I can help.
I know I can do good there. Yeah, your intuition,
lad absolutely. And then in this moment, I'm like, Okay,
I knew I had to leave that, I knew that,
(42:50):
but I didn't know where I was gonna go. And
that is a very different feeling for me. So right now,
what I'm trying to do is really be still and
still not in the physical stance. I'm still running around yourself, within,
within yourself, getting to that quiet place of that's right,
and not be so distracted, you know, by the other opportunities,
(43:16):
like making sure that that's actually what I want to do,
you know, And I do feel like, and this is
part of the difficulty. I do feel like there's unfinished
business for me in the corporate space. But the question
that I have for myself is do I need to
finish it? Do I need to finish it? Or can
I pass the baton to somebody else to do it? Yes, meaning,
if if Mark Zuckerberg came to you now that Cheryl
(43:39):
Sandberg has left and said, would you take on that
because God knows that company needs some of your bows magic?
Is that something you would even consider right? But that's
the thing, is that I have to actually sit with
that and feel whether or not that is the right
move for me. It can't be because of the math.
It's not because oh, well, look at this opportunity. You've
(44:01):
never done that role before, You've never done it a
company that size, you haven't. It can't be that, and
I recognize that it is. It is frustrating for the
people who like to advise me, But they advise you
for a reason, and they know how you lead, and
you lead with what feels intuitively right and where you
(44:23):
need to be. I'm sure where you need to be
to ultimately be of the most service and where that
fits with your ethics and your moral compass and your ideals.
And guess what that changes over you? Is it does?
And that is why this feels so different. You've hit
the nail on the head. It's like, I'm a different
(44:44):
person than I was five years ago, then I was
ten years ago, then I was fifteen years ago. And
therefore it's like, I've got to make the decisions based
on this version of me. It can't even be on
the future version, because that's what everybody wants to talk about, right.
They're like, well, if you did this thing, then in
five years you'll be here. It's like, well, why am I?
Why am I thinking about that future? I don't know
(45:05):
what I know? When the hell she mustn't do by
the way, by the way, by the way, it's about
getting present in today, and and you've been so busy
and working for so long that you probably haven't had
an extended period of time to be able to get
quiet and get still and do this kind of dig
deep recalibration that will have to happen before you can
(45:26):
even know what that answer is. That's that's exactly I
say this because I'm in it too. Well, look at
this exactly. That's how I know it so well because
I'm also in it. I am in that room. It's
it's a wild it's a wild thing, and it's it's.
Um it's a little shocking to me, you know, to
(45:47):
be a stage in my career right and be in
life and have this knowledge and be like, how can
I not? How do I It's to me it feels
like it's different, but it feels similar to like when
you're a teenager and you're like, oh, where do I
fit in the world, But you're not. You're a growing
up woman with growing ass kid. And yes, and this experience,
the whole thing found that, um, you know, I made
(46:11):
the habit by the way of like throwing away pro
and calm less, and I stopped making those, you know,
long term plans. I stopped doing that actually a long
time ago. And now I because I have the habit
of not doing them, I don't even know how to
begin doing that, you know what I mean, And and
so I'm not going to. But it is much more
difficult to, like we said, get still really understand the
(46:35):
intuitive voice and then make a decision based on that yes,
I understand, get the decision based on that. So it's
actually doing less, it's doing can imagine doing less? What
a concept? What a concept for type A do is
exactly from people who are bosses out here, you know,
trying to accomplish everything, who are ambitious do less. And
(47:00):
And also how incredible that your daughter is going to
get to have this stage of life role modeled. Yes,
because our daughters also need to know that there are
times where we have to slow down and go in
wood and stay true to ourselves. That's right, that's right,
that's right. And I really do hope that she we
(47:21):
will understand that, you know, as a principle for herself
in her own life. You know. Um, one of the things,
like I said, that is the hardest to do is
to just listen to yourself. You know, what do you
want to do? You know? Like I want because like
we said, there are well intentioned people who want to advise.
There's all there's all kind of inputs, you know, and
(47:41):
I really, I really do want her to see that
no one actually knows better for you than yourself. That
if you if you really take the time to considering
way what it is that you want you're going to
make the right decision, and that there's no there actually
no fear in that, you know. So for me, I'm
here trying to remember that. Yeah, well, let's continue this
(48:06):
discussion because I'm in the same space. So who are
some of the voices that have most inspired you on
your journey? Gosh, and in so many different types of ways,
you know. Um. One of the earliest influences for me
was my English teacher in Cloda Springs, Colorado, and I
(48:26):
was in the tenth grade. Um. She was so fascinating
because or she was so influential in my life because
she was the first person who told me I was
a good storyteller. You know. No one had said that
to me before. And it was interesting because like, I
come from a family of storytellers. It's like and and
Guanian culture is full of storytellers, you know, it's like
(48:49):
how you communicate everything. Um, but my dad is an
incredible storyteller, great orator, you know. And UM, I think
because I'd always just so admired him that I never
considered that I was good at it, not even great,
just good. And she was one of the first people
and UM, I hear her voice constantly. You know, even
(49:11):
now when I am trying to create a campaign or
think about a strategy, I think about the things that
she said to me at that time. You know, that
made me consider storytelling as my own talent, my own gift.
You know, she probably doesn't even know that, but um,
(49:31):
and then there have been other more practical influences. Spike Lee,
who was one of my first bosses. Um, he's a
great influence. Like and again, just what a great marketa
he is. You know who Spike Lee is. I don't
know who a lot of other directors are, look exactly.
But the thing I learned from him which was so
(49:51):
important was his unapologetic blackness. That man did not give
two ships whether or not you were mad about what
he said about blackness. Didn't don't care. And it was
it was incredible thing because I had up until that point.
You know, it's like you've seen a lot of people
sort of shifting change and made themselves smaller to try
(50:13):
and fit in to acceptable culture. And he was like,
oh no, I'm throwing it down if you don't like it,
so what actually, don't have to like you at all?
And and people call him more kind of names. You
know say that he has a bad attitude and he's
like an It sounds like he was a bit of
a role model for you. Oh yes, oh yes. I
so admired it because it was the It was one
(50:35):
of the first times I'd actually seen somebody who was
in the public eye who had a loud voice and
who didn't try to dim themselves, even the sharp edges.
He'd never tried to do it, and I thought that
was incredibly just absolutely amazing. And maybe I'd also say
um Ariana Huffington's who more recently has been such a
(50:57):
great influence to me. Um she always picks up the
phone and she just doesn't she she does that for
me too, and has been um when I when I
launched my interview series The Conversation, she was on the
first series and she helped me and has continued to
be available for me as well whenever I've reached out.
(51:20):
What I'm saying, it's like, but isn't that remarkable. Yeah,
she's so busy, she's got so many careers and she
still returns of text like almost instantly. I don't understand it,
you know, but it's it's inspiring to me because she
does the job of making you and me feel connected
(51:41):
to her, intimately connected to her. Uh and does that
for a lot of people I know. Yeah, she walks
the talk. She's one of those women that walks the talk.
You know what. We all know who they are because
we all know who the ones who don't and she's
the one that does. That's that's yes. So so she
is an influence you know, of somebody who really cares
(52:04):
deeply and makes you know that she cares deeply about you.
Has been a great influence to me too. That's great
to know. Yeah, Bose, thank you so much. It has
been such a treat to talk to you, and I
can't wait to do this again. No, thank you so much.
We're gonna have lots and lots of lots of other
conversations that we won't record, just for me and you.
(52:26):
You have been listening to VS Voices my immense thanks
to today's guest Bozuma st. John. If you love our show,
please comment, like, and follow us wherever you listen to
your favorite podcasts, and as always, please follow me amandit
Acadinet on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. VS Voices is part
of Victoria's Secrets ongoing commitment to become one of the
(52:49):
world's leading advocates for women. To deliver on that promise. Together,
we have created the Voices platform to do just that.
Amplify the voices, represent the views, and learn from the
unique perspectives of women from every background. Sharing stories bring
us closer together, and it's how we move forward, open
up dialogue and raise the game. Thank you for listening.
My guest today is one of the most visible and
successful businesswomen in the United States. She has held senior
executive positions at Pepsi, Beats, Apple, Uber, Endeavor, and most recently, Netflix.
But honestly, it would just be easier to call her
by what she is at her core, a badass. I'm
speaking to Bosama St John or Bose, as she is
(00:21):
known by her friends, about the many triumphs and the
tragedies she has experienced on her journey. There's a there's
a lot we can talk about, but I've picked a
few things and one of them when I was thinking
about you, is you know, you've worked in American corporate
world for most of your career, and yeah, you're definitely
(00:42):
someone who thinks outside of the box. And you've created
opportunities for yourself and you've really rewritten the rules. And
I'm wondering how that has worked for you within the
confines of corporate America. Mm hmm, woof. That is a calm,
aplicated questions, you know, I mean, listen, you don't you
(01:04):
don't know me, but I go in for the stuff.
I like it. I like it. I like it. It's
complicated because our definitions of success or making it work
very so much, right. I think somebody on the outside
looking in at me would be like, holy sh it,
she's highly successful because I look at my resume, to
(01:24):
look at the titles, though you know, the companies will
say that is a successful person who has done it
her way. Um. And I look backwards in my career
and I see all of the shards, all the sharp edges,
(01:45):
you know. Um that what I thought success was gonna
look like is not the road I've been on. Yeah,
that I think I've done well. I'm proud of yours,
you know, like I'm like, girl, yeah you did it
or you're doing it right. But gosh, couldn't have come
(02:08):
without the struggle, without the pain of it, without the
like trying to fit in and then being rejected and
then trying it again someplace else and then being rejected
and then you know what I mean, That doesn't that
doesn't feel like success. So I think it's it's like
there are definitions are so different in how we perceive
(02:29):
having made it or that success that when I look
at it, I look at myself, I'm like, yeah, you've
done it all right, But I don't. I don't look
at it in a romanticized way. I've often thought about
about what would my career trajectory have looked like if
I hadn't have had to fight so hard, Like if
(02:52):
I didn't have to expend that energy to what it
took to a forge your path where one didn't exist, Yes,
it would have been different, because that's exhausting. On top
of doing the job, you've got to forge the path. Yes, yes.
I have a really good friend who, um her name
is Vivian Kate, and she has this expression like what
(03:16):
would Chad do? She's a black woman and uh an entrepreneur.
You know, it's like that that's like the hardest thing, right,
And she said she always you know, to like give
herself a little more like you know, or like you know,
some ballsiness, just like what would Chad do in this situation?
You know? And I don't even think about that. And
I'm like, yo, if I was Chad, who would my
(03:37):
career look like? For me? It's been it's been difficult
to get to do something that's so few women get
to do. I mean when I look at what I do,
so if you few women like have their own shows
or get to interview people on primetime television or whatever.
And certainly for you, it's like you got hired by Beats, Uber, Netflix, Apple,
(04:03):
like these are some of the biggest companies in the world,
so you repeatedly got hired by them. So something is
obviously working, right, But we're talking about we're talking about
the journey, and so the journey to get there. And
then I was also thinking, you obviously come into a
company to do what BOWS does really really well, they're
(04:24):
hiring you for a reason, right, But but how is
it when you get in there and how do you
handle resistance when you're pushing for a company to head
in a certain direction? Tonal politics don't support that vision.
So you got you signed up for a job and
you're like, yeah, I'm here to do what BOWS does.
But then you get in there, it's like, okay, maybe
this isn't so easy. How do you handle that resistance? Right?
(04:47):
R Right? Well, you know, it's so interesting because like
when I think about the idea of like, you know, well, gosh,
doing what I do right and doing it very very well,
which is the only reason, by the way, that I've
been able to be in the company's or you know,
have these titles, right, it does take me back to
(05:10):
this thought. They're like, oh, well, if I was somebody else,
how would this work? Right? Because look, the truth is,
and look all of us are sometimes afraid to say
it openly, which is that I do have to be
ten times better. I do more brilliant. I have to
be sharper, have to be faster, I have to be
more intuitive, I have to be wittier. I have to
be sharper, you know. Sometimes I have to be meaner
(05:34):
and reif and resilient. Yes, resilient and resourceful, you know.
Because to your question, it's like when I come into
a new company, or by the way, if strategy strategy
changes inside of the company, I'm laden and the job changes,
because that happens to a lot of us. Right, You're
(05:54):
doing one job and then avis and it's like, oh
the business is going this way, we need to go
over here, you know. And you're now forced to have
to figure out new strategy, new ways of execution, and
you have to take a whole bunch of people with you.
You have to become resourceful, figure out who the allies are, right, uh,
in a constantly shifting environment. And I'm not a stranger
(06:19):
to having to reintroduce myself. You know. I really did
like jump up with recognition when I first heard that
jay Z lyric, you know, allowed me to reintroduce myself.
My name is Bows, you know, and I'm like, yeah,
let me just tell you just one more time, you know,
because you may not be aware. And it is that
(06:39):
kind of process. You know. When I was a kid,
my parents moved around a lot, you know, I was,
I was moving from country to country like your families
originally from Ghana, uh. And I used to reintroducing yourself
every city to every city I want to. I had
to tell people how to say my name right, you know,
because look, that's kind of stuff is important. You know,
(07:02):
you want your identity to be respected, and you want
people not to just casually call you whatever they want,
you know, And and that, even though sounds superficial, it
is absolutely deeply rooted in your own self worth and
how people view you. You know. It's like all of
it stems from that. I mean, even you, even you
saying that you welcome the opportunity to reintroduce yourself because
(07:26):
you're oose. That comes from the knowledge that you are
you and that you bring what you bring to the
table and that you're you're you. That's right, that's right,
and people have to buy into that. You know. It's
like any It's like any kind of relationship that you
would forge. It's the same when you enter any new
environment of a company and you have to take a
(07:47):
lot of people with you. They have to believe you,
you know. So this isn't so much like you know,
like a dictator or loteal terian where you come in
and you say this is my way or the highway.
You know, it's like some of it is true, but
any good leader knows that you have to also do
the balance. It's a very delicate balance of taking in information,
(08:10):
making sure people feel like they're heard, and then also
giving directions so that they know that, oh, you know
where the hell you're going, but you listen to me,
and therefore I can trust that you're going to take
that information and make the right call. But so the
combination of those things. But do you do you often
feel like you you already know what it is you're
doing and that you just have to listen to people
(08:32):
to be polite. Or is it that actually know people
have some great ideas that are additive to to the
vision that I have. Yeah, no, I think that's the
first the first way to failures. If you actually think
you already know the answer, There's no way, I don't
care how brilliance you are, there's no way you come
into a new company and new organization and feel like
you already have the answer. You may have an idea
(08:55):
of what to do, but like I'll give you a
perfect example. When I joined Uber, it was at the
height of the delete Uber craziness that happened to the company.
Right one day, it was like Silicon Valleys Darling. The
next day it was like in the Shifter, you know,
and it was everywhere. But was that let's get Box exactly.
(09:16):
Like she's the fixer, you know, she's the grand guru.
Get her in here, let her turn this thing around.
And I'm like, yeah, you know, this is what I do.
Like I'm great at that. I have good instincts, So
I come in I already have a sense of of
what the issues are. Right, It's like there's a lot
of issues of trust, you know, Like people would say, oh, well, no,
they want, you know, to see these numbers of people
(09:37):
over here, and they want these policies over here. I'm like, no, no,
they don't trust you. That's the problem. They don't trust you.
And so it's like, okay, I have some ideas of
what it's gonna take, but I didn't know the experience
of being a driver, right, which was a complete outlier
to me. I knew, of course, what it felt like
to be a passenger and a writer. I knew what
(09:58):
it was like to be now an executive inside of
the company and understand the atmosphere and the culture. But
I had no idea what it meant to be a
driver totally. Of course. Yeah, I drove all of them.
I drove were accept uberpool, we're black. I drove all
of them, so I could better understand from the perspective,
like why do you do this? What was your experience?
(10:21):
Oh man, it was so it was so eye opening.
I swear like it was so incredibly eye opening. First
of all, I didn't I didn't appreciate how terrifying it is.
Two by the way, just take away the woman thing
and the black thing. Okay, it's like, how terrifying. I
can try, but but how terrifying is for anyone um
(10:44):
to pick ups a stranger, know an address, try to
follow a map, look at the directions. Know that they're
staring at the back of your head because behind this
I can't see them. And they're bringing all the energy.
You know. It's like maybe they're sad, maybe they're upset
at somebody else is gonna take it out on you.
Maybe they're excited, they're in a hurry. Maybe they want
(11:05):
you to take it slow. You don't know what you're
gonna get. And somebody brings all that energy into the car.
Now you gotta be almost like a counselor who, by
the way, not talking to them because they don't want
you to talk to them. Right, do not do not
talk to me, right, I don't even look at me.
Don't look at my in my direction. You know, you've
(11:25):
got all these things going on with this other person.
But then you also have your own reasons for driving. Right.
Perhaps it's that, like you know, you're trying to save
money to go to college, you're trying to buy a
new house, or maybe you're just trying to put dinner
on the table, you know, but you've got all of
these things happening. Oh, by the way, your own emotions,
the ship that happened to you, you know, so It's
like understanding for me what was going to be the
(11:50):
connector point between drivers and writers to build trust between
those two people was actually the magic to turning around
the trust for the company out. I would never have
known that, can I not said at the driver's seat, never,
not a million years? And how did you do that?
How did you do that? Well? First, it was about
humanizing the drivers, you know, because people writers take them
(12:18):
for granted, you know, they abuse them, they think they're
not they're lesser than them, don't see them as people. No,
not at all, you know. And in fact, one of
my favorite cohorts, uh was what I end up calling
the mom me drivers, the ones who had like toddlers
at home, um, their stay at home moms who would
(12:39):
drop off their kids at like daycare or something like that,
you know. And the problem with daycare, especially in the US,
is that it's like, you know, four hours long or
something like what in the hell you're supposed to do
for hours? But not enough money to pay for daycare?
I mean exactly, and not have time to do anything else.
But they would drop off the kid at daycare, um,
they would run a few errands and then they would
(13:01):
pick up writers on the on like in between and
therefore make some money also, yeah, and then when that
was done, they go pick up the kid and go
home like and it was just so fascinating cause I'm like,
what is that about? Right? Some of it was about freedom,
Some of it was about you know, having their own
self possessed ways to earn um. Some of it was
about distraction. You know, there was all kinds of me,
(13:24):
get out of my house, change whatever. But it's like,
how do you for me? It was then creating stories
about the drivers, right, And I did it in big
ways and small ways. I I partnered with Lebron, James
Um and Kevin Durant, who at the time were the
captains for the All Star Game, and the thought was, Okay,
(13:45):
we're gonna put them in the car. They're gonna talk
to a driver. The driver was Carrie Champion, who is
a good friend and a sports journalist, and have them
talk about anything that they want to talk about. And
it was the first time that Lebron talked about what
it's like to be a black man in America, even
when you're wealthy. And the time when he had the
(14:07):
n words sprape paid it across his gate and he
had to explain to his son's why that was, you know,
and Carrie is sitting in the driver's seat, She's trying
to pay attention, you know, make turns, get him to
where he's going, and he's like divulging all of this
very deep stuff, you know, and it's like, I think,
what what was happening? Is you watched that was? Like
(14:28):
you know, if someone of that stature, you know, can
get in and I'm not encouraging that everybody become a counselor,
but it's like it was somebody like that can get
in and trust the driver with this very valuable piece
of information, then isn't that driver also human? Like shouldn't
should't we be also interested? Like it's a it's a
very um you know, it's a it's like a it's
(14:51):
like a relationship that deserves a return. Yeah, And that
was successful, right, that repositioning highly successful? How do you
know what to do in a company? Because these are
not small companies. These are not like mom and pop
start ups here or whatever. These are giant companies with
(15:13):
you know, massive investment and publicly owned some of them. Like,
how do you know what to do? How are you
so intuitive with coming into these places and being able
to create narratives that are based in humanity, but ultimately
speaking a language which isn't part of a company principle.
Yeah yeah, well actually you just you just said what
(15:34):
the magic secret sauces is human connection. You know, across everything,
there is no company, successful, big global that is not
connected to humans. You know that doesn't behave like human
and like the emotions that we have, you know, and
so that is part of it. But how do I
(15:56):
do it? Or how would an executive do it? Right
to come in and know what to do? I don't
mean an executive, I mean you, because you are very
specific with your right. But the answer is still the same,
which is that you have to have a balance of
vulnerability and a lot of humility, you know, and the
vulnerability allows you to actually not know the answer and
(16:17):
go ceartain for it. Because again I think the biggest
issue you know that a lot of people would face,
which sometimes I have also been guilty of, is arrogant,
you know, thinking that you already know the answer when
you're totally misguided. That's how people fall, you know that,
And that's how like campaigns go bust when you think
(16:39):
you know the answer. By the way, like I said,
I'm not immune to that. I've certainly had my my
times where I've been like, oh, you know what, that's
exactly what the people need. It's exactly what they want
to hear, and then you did it didn't work out.
There's been lots of times, so it was just like, oh,
that was a disaster. That was what's an example of that? God? Uhm,
(17:01):
we think of a good one. Um, I know, I know,
I know a good one. God. Okay. So so I
was at Apple. We have just launched appele music for
like the second time. It's going great now, right, everything's
gople music was reintroducing itself. Yes, exactly after a year
like the first year, you know it was a little rocky.
(17:22):
Second year, Bam, we're out here. Okay, things are great.
And Mary J. Blige, who is happens to be a
good friend but also obviously a talented artist, UM, was
trying to find new things to do. You know, so
like obviously we know her as a beautiful musician and singer, UM,
(17:42):
but she wants to also flex a little bit in
different creative areas. And because we had the opportunity to
do some TV you know, with like there was content
beginning to be made at Apple that felt like, okay,
we could plug into that. Um. She really had the
desire on her heart to do with talk show, which
by the way, brilliantly called what's the four one one?
(18:05):
I mean, come on, so clever, so witty. Uh. And
it was great because the idea was, Okay, she's gonna
have these very personal conversations with friends of hers. So
we had a list of the people. You know, she
was lots of cool friends. Jayla was on the list.
That's like great people on the list. And then she said,
you know what, as like her first episode that she
(18:26):
didn't want to talk to any of her so called friends. Yeah,
because it's very hard to interview your friends. Yeah, well
that part all. She wanted to talk to Hillary Clinton,
who at the time was running for president of the
United States of America. I actually did that interview. I thought,
oh my god, like this is just like how even
(18:48):
first of all, how are you even going to get
the interview? You know, because every every journalist wanted to
interview her either she was turning down things left and right. No,
I I actually bouse I did that interview I did
the first announcement with Hillary when she was running. Yeah,
Oh my god. And by the way, I don't know
how I got it either. I just I campaigned for
that thing, and I got it exactly like the hottest ticket.
(19:08):
There was no way we were going to get that interview,
you know, but we wrote the brief, you know, sent
the pitcheon and she accepted, and so uh she flew in.
You know, Mary prepared like she prepared better than I've
seen anybody prepared for anything. You know, she looked great,
(19:29):
she had great questions, she practiced for it, she sounded awesome.
Day came Mary's sitting in her seat. She does the
interview of her life like it is remarkable. Hillary talks
about her mother, she talked, she talked about things that
she never talked about, like it was. It was phenomenal.
And in the interview, at some point, um, because you know,
(19:51):
we had been talking about police brutality and blackness and
the challenges. Uh, Mary went down the path of asking
her about that what her opinion was, and she referenced
the song um called American Skin Um and by Bruce Springsteen,
by the way, an amazing song. But she decided to
(20:13):
do a rendition of it acapella, and so here I am,
you know, backstage, like off to the side. Now, father,
this sounds really good, by the way, everything is great
like she does. And when I tell you that this
renbition like Mary, this is why she's such a brilliant artist.
She was sitting down. You know how hard it is
(20:34):
to sit the same when you're sitting sitting down. She
had not warmed up, there was no rehearsal. She even
had water like and Homegirl sang this song from the
depths of her soul and it was like she she
that nickname that she has a queen of so like
she she killed it, crushed it and even to the
(20:55):
point where Hilary had tears in her eyes. Everybody was crying,
We all had boosebumps. Was great. So then it's time
to market the show, right, and I'm like, I know
exactly what I'm doing. I'm not doing the regular sizzle
like you know, with like the sound bites and the
and then the you know, cool graphics. I'm not gonna
do that. I'm just gonna use a bit of that
(21:15):
moment where Mary sang because it was powerful and we've
never seen Hillary cry of course you want to see that. Yes,
so cut that into thirty second commercial, sixty second commercial,
and let that joint rip. And it was a disaster.
It was a disaster. It was a disaster because for
(21:38):
black people, they felt that Mary was doing what is
called like shocking and driving performing for white people, you know,
doing the thing where it's like Mary, like, you've got
Hillary Clinton, who is just a story politician, brilliant woman,
(22:02):
change maker, activists, feminist, and you're just gonna sit there
and sing for two dollars, Like is that what you're
gonna do? And they murdered her, killed her, all of her.
I mean, it was a disaster that, like Twitter was going,
you know what happens when it's like it just starts railroading.
It was terrible. It was terrible, and I felt awful.
(22:26):
I mean it was it was such a fail. It
was such a fail because I I felt in the
room right, I had felt the goose bumps. I knew
what happened, I knew the magic. I had misread what
the culture was going to demand of Mary. And so
sometimes it's like, look, I I I think I know
pop culture really well. I think I'm one of the
(22:48):
most intuitive marketers because of that reason, Like I pay attention,
I'm reading the room, I'm like feeling the air. Which
way is it going? You know, I'm not waking up
and just writing strategy that's gonna be executed eight months
from now. I'm waking up on the eighth month and saying,
what's happening outside? You know? And I missed and it was.
It was so terrible because you know, Mary was in
(23:09):
a tough time in her life also, um and I
felt like personally probably let her down in a in
a major way, not just professionally, but personally, And you know,
it was it was a really hard thing to come
out of her show. Didn't make it, you know, for
for various reasons, but that was one of them. And
it was one of the greatest mistakes I think of
my career. Thank you for sharing that with such honesty
(23:32):
and vulnerability. I think it is so important for people
to know that everybody fails. Everybody fails. It is not
to do with not failing. It is what do you
do after that failure? Exactly exactly, because by the way
you are allowed to feel all the feelings. You know,
(23:56):
it's like, I'm not going to pretend like I was
some bulletproof person who's went to sleep that night and
then woke up the next day into that you know what,
dust myself off, you know, fall down seventh stand up bait. Right,
So it happened. I was scared. I was terrified. I
was sad, I was embarrassed. You know, I had all
of games, all of that huge shape. How do you
(24:18):
walk in, you know, into the next meeting, into the
next campaign. How do you sit across the table from
another artist and promise that you will deliver? You know?
And I thinking, oh, why, so what happened to mary Ja?
And you're the brilliant marketer who's supposed to handle my campaign?
Oh no, yeah, you know, and then by the way,
second guessing every decision after that, because you're not long.
(24:41):
It's a long process to heal it is. Yeah, gosh,
I'm listening to that story, and I'm thinking about how
you started your career. Your first paying job was as
a phone operator for a T and T. Oh my god,
how did you even get that? See, you're a great journalist,
(25:02):
this is why so hell do you even know that?
Because I did my research on you. Bos amazing, You're amazing.
That was really fascinating to me. That was your first job.
Can you imagine, Oh my god, do you think they
even do you think they even know that? I don't
think they know that. There's no way they know that
watch a T N T is going to come off
(25:23):
to you tomorrow to be because as far as I know,
you don't have I don't know if you have something
else lined up, But watch a T N T is
gonna come off? Wouldn't that be the story? Right? They?
Like I started out my very first job like sitting there, Hello,
A T and T. How can I help you? You
know you still got it? I still got it, still
got the cadence. I mean, look, I helped all kind
(25:46):
of people and by the way, just to date myself,
when operators really were necessary to connect international calls, that
was that was what I was doing. Imagine that invaluable.
I mean, like, come on, I spoke to people from
all kind of places, you know, connected them to their
loved ones. And then you know you'd have to stay
on the line to make sure that the connection here
(26:08):
conversations oh yeah all the time. Oh yeah, you would.
You would have to stay to make sure it actually connected.
That they that they began their conversation and then you
could drop. It was part of the training, you know,
So yeah, I heard all I heard all kind of stuff.
I mean it was like, you know, somebody connects in
the first hello, they start screaming or they cry, or
they ask something mundane, and you can tell the tremor
(26:30):
and their voice that they there's actually something really important
they have to talk about. You know, it's like picking
up all of those humans. You're so observing and intuitive,
and it's it's like I'm hearing your your intuition with
human behavior and how deep that is. And to have that,
to have that level of empathy into and intuition, most
(26:51):
people who have that have experienced a lot of a
wide range of emotional things themselves. And when I was
reading about you, I was taken with how much loss
you've experienced in your life, and starting with well, I
don't know if this was the first loss, but certainly
your daughter Eve was born prematurely at seven months and
(27:14):
did not survive. And then your husband, you know, died
from cancer, and that was both within a few years
of each other. And I was I'm so sorry that
you had both of those experiences, and um, and I'm
wondering how those losses have shaped you. And I know
(27:38):
that's a really big question. Yeah, yeah, but it's it's um,
I'm sorry, Bose. Can I just ask you? Are you
comfortable with me asking? Okay? Yes, yes, yes, yes? Um.
You know because I I say this to um my
team's all the time too, you know, people that I
work with that And I know it's like hard for
(28:02):
people sometimes to bring their full selves, you know, to situations.
But I find it almost impossible, you know, to be
two or three people at the same time. You know.
It's like I'm a I'm a better executive because I'm
a widow. You know, I'm a I'm more empathetic because
(28:24):
I have suffered the loss of a child prematurely. You know, um,
my college boyfriend committed suicide and left me the voicemail,
you know, like the my understanding of grief is so complicated,
(28:47):
the different types. Yes, and so I think I'm a
I'm a better human because of those experiences. And that's that's. Look.
Let's taken a lot of therapy in order to be
able to say that. Yeah, and I understand what you're saying,
and that is why observing your intuition and your empathy.
I knew that you must have had experiences in your
(29:10):
life that challenged you to keep your heart open. Yes, yes,
and you know, very much like what we were just
talking about with UM the whole like, you know, get
knocked down seven stand up bait. It's you know, the
process of keeping your heart open is like an active choice. Yes,
(29:31):
it's an active choice. It's an everyday choice, sometimes moment
to moment choice. You know that, Um, being not unafraid
because that's the wrong expression, but being brave enough to
save you know what, This could end horribly, you know,
(29:52):
something devastating and terrible could happen. But I've got to
go anyway. I've got to still be any way. It
has given me some freedom, actually, ah, because I've been
at the very bottom multiple times, multiple times in different ways,
(30:13):
because they're different bottoms. We didn't know that. I didn't
know that. Yeah, there's a lot of them who knew, Like,
oh my god, another one. Yes, it's like, you know,
there's like the seven stages of hell. Yes, there are
probably at least at least there are lots and lots
and lots, you know, there is and and by the way,
it's not just even grief in like the death of
(30:35):
a person, but grief in the loss of trust, of
the loss of another type of relationship, or lots of
dream or identity, all of those things. They are different griefs,
you know. And and I have been at the bottom
of so many of them that I now feel more
free in my life because I know that I can
(30:57):
survive those things. It is much different. And I think
if you have not been there because you're afraid of
the thing you can't see, You're afraid of the thing
that seems like so like it's not fat like the
worst thing that you can imagine that's happened, and you
have survived this exactly, It's exactly right. It's like, yeah,
(31:18):
what if the worst thing happens. What if the worst
thing happens, then what And I have been there already,
and so now it allows me to live life in
a much more free way. It doesn't mean that I
am unafraid. It doesn't mean that I'm not concerned. It
doesn't mean that when my daughter goes to the mall
(31:38):
that I'm not calling her every fifteen minutes to see
how she's doing. She probably hates you know what, I'm saying, like,
you know, it doesn't stop me from doing those things,
but I am a freer person because I understand that
should the worst thing happen, I will still survive. I'll
still be here, and not only survive, but you can
(32:00):
also thrive within that, which I think is really important. Yes, right, yeah,
And it's important for us to see people who have
been who have faced the abyss multiple times and who
have stood back up. However long that process took, by
the way, And that's fine that part, because it can
(32:22):
take a very long time and you need help also, yess.
That is crucial, whether professional or you know, with people
who care about you, who have the right intention you know,
like I've had lots of lots and lots and lots
of help, you know, and and trying to find the
people who will help has also been tricky, right because
(32:47):
you said with the right intentions. Yes, because people can
love you and advise you horribly well, they may not
have resolved their own stuff, so that ends through which
they're giving you that guidance can be that's right, that's right,
But then they will put their own fear in you too, right,
very much, so it will say the things that You're like, wait,
(33:08):
but I'm sorry. I thought you were supposed to give
me encouragement, you know, And they're like, no, I'm just
trying to protect you. I'm just trying to help you.
I'm trying to help you think of all of the
scenarios and what I already think of him and and
whatever you mentioned already thought of that too, exactly exactly.
But so it's I I just, um, I wish those
things hadn't happened to me, by the way I wish
(33:30):
they had it. I wish I was saying here telling you,
you know, more flower coverage stories. Um, but I am.
I am grateful that I not only survived, as you said,
but able to thrive in spite of it. Yeah, you certainly, uh,
thank you, thank you for sharing that insight and wisdom. Um.
(33:55):
You know I I actually have noticed on your social
media how you regularly speak about your husband who died,
and you wore his wedding ring to your daughter's birthday
so that she could know that he's always by her side.
And I thought that was so beautiful and so powerful,
and I wanted to ask you, how else do you
(34:16):
keep your late husband's memory alive for your daughter. Yeah, well,
you know what's so interesting. Um, I don't even know
how to put this. Um, I don't think I ever.
I don't think I ever packed him away. Mhm you know. UM,
I'm really like in this moment trying to think about
(34:40):
I don't think I ever, did you know? Because she
was four when he passed away. And by the way,
talking about people to support you, I had a very
very good friend who happens to be a um um
psychologist who said, you know that I should be on
a with Leele, you know, tell the truth of things,
(35:04):
use the big words, use the real words. It was.
It was just the most like life changing advice because instinct,
you know, as a parent, is to protect anything that
would make him sad or afraid or anything. Right, But
it was the best piece of advice because it allowed
me to be honest with her. And by the way,
I think it's it's been so healthy for our relationship
(35:26):
because then she can also be completely transparent with me
were you're giving her permission and you're role modeling it
for her. And so when he died, and even in
the process of his dying, we were very transparent, very
honest in those conversations, and so I feel like after
he passed away, I didn't have to hide any of
(35:49):
the things, and so I talked about him very actively
and I still do. You know. It's especially like as
she started to develop her personality, you know, or things
would happen and I'd be like, there's no way you
would know that, like that your dad does that, you know,
Like that happens all of the time. Like the way
(36:10):
she sits cross legged is exactly like him. I freaks
me out. It's very very weird, you know, or like
it sometimes like an expression she will use, or a
way she looks at me. I'm telling you, I literally
like your dad did, Why are you doing that? You don't?
And I mean some of it to her, And sometimes
(36:31):
sometimes it causes me pain, you know. Sometimes it's like
a little pain where I'm just like, man, like I
can't believe the man is no longer here, you know,
but you missed him, Oh yes, in that moment very
much so. But I think it also has the dual
effect of like keeping him very alive for her. Um
sometimes it brings her a lot of joy, you know,
(36:53):
to know that, like, oh, well, you know, I like
my dad. You know, but just like her. Yeah, but
my name, yeah, Leo, Leo. I love seeing the videos
that you share with her because you're sharing all of
your wins, you're sharing all of your successes, You're sharing
(37:16):
your life with her in a way that is so
um inclusive. And she's your daughter so obviously, but you
know what, no, not obviously. A lot of parents don't
do that. And and you can see, like in a
recent post, you said that if she wasn't your daughter,
you would want to be her friend. And I feel
like that about my big daughter. I was a mom
(37:37):
when I was nineteen years old, so I have a
grown up daughter and I feel like that. I'm like,
if you want my kid, I don't want to be
friends with you, because you're an awesome woman, you know,
and the bond you have with your daughter is so
clear and so powerful. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it really is.
I I so enjoy our relationship ship. Um. You know,
(38:01):
it's very different from my relationship with my mom. Well
in that um and by the way, I think the
my idea of motherhood is different, you know, but I
think maybe and I won't speak for everybody, of course,
but she grew up in a time and with a
mother who was very strict on her, you know, who
(38:23):
was not her friend. Uh. And so my mom then
tried to evolve that right and say, okay, I'm your mom,
but I also want to get to know you better,
you know, as as more than just this mother daughter relationship.
But that was also fraught with that's a complicated boundary.
It's a very complicated boundary, it is, you know, but
(38:45):
I don't think she understood exactly how to navigate it
also because it hadn't been modeled for her, and so
she she's the first generation of mother. That's that's looking
at parenting differently. It's also a generational thing. And so
now it's like I'm looking at my daughter right, especially
when she was born and then going through this um
you know, with losing her father and my husband. It's
(39:08):
it was it was transformational because I was like, man,
I want to I want to make sure that we're
able to be super transparent with each other because I
want to know what's going on. I want to know
what she's thinking. I want to know how to help.
I want to know how to advise without losing the
role of mother, right. And so it's why like I
(39:30):
do emphasize the fact that I am her mother first.
I am her mother, you know, but that in another dimension,
in another world, you know, different circumstances, I would actually
want to be her friend because she is an awesome
person like your daughter, Like you said, you know, she's
an awesome person. She's so cool, she's so funny, and
she's so kind. So I absolutely would want somebody like
(39:52):
that in my life. Yeah, that's the best compliment that
we can really pay all do it is right? Yes, yes,
it's true. You recently left a role at Netflix and
you worked at some of the like I said, some
of the biggest companies in the world. And I'm curious,
what is inspiring you, what is exciting you? What are
the challenges professionally that you haven't been able to tackle yet,
(40:14):
Like where is your heart and your head out with
what you want to do? Yeah? Now, isn't that the
like grand questions? It's a big one. It's a big one,
you know. So here here's the truth of it. Um,
because we're now besties anyway. Uh yeah. From jump it
was like, yes, okay, we're up the same tribe. Yes,
(40:39):
you know, I um, this this moment feels so different
for me than any other transition I've ever made, you know,
I mean even even like taking it all the way
back to the beginning of my career when I when
I was in college, I was pre mad. I thought
I was in medical school, you know, I did all
the things, and then I took a year off you know,
(41:01):
in between, and stumbled into this career basically. Um, and
even that transition doesn't feel like this, and that was
really scary. This is super super scary because the choice
I have is to continue doing what I've been doing,
which is fine, right, I've done the things, Like you said,
(41:22):
I've been at lots of big companies. By the way,
there are other big companies, and yes, they would they
would like somebody like me there. That'd be fine. I
could do that. Um, I could do something else, That's
what I'm saying, which is super super scary, you know.
And so right now I'm in that pivot, that inflection point,
(41:44):
and I have been thinking so much about, you know,
my own sort of destiny, the feeling of where I
want to do. Trying not to put logic in there
feels right, yes, yes, but it's so hard to do that.
You know. It's like it's really really tough. And I
(42:06):
have always made jumps and transitions and all of that
just because of a feeling, you know. I like, when
I went to Uber, I was like why, Like literally
everybody was like, why would you do it? Why? You're
an Apple, You're doing so well. I had come off
the keynote. It was like everybody was like, Oh, You're
the next big thing in Silicon Valley. And then here
(42:27):
I go down to this tumbling, crumbling company. That was
so you know, it's like but I felt it like
I was like, No, that's where I'm supposed to be.
I have to go there. I know that I can help.
I know I can do good there. Yeah, your intuition,
lad absolutely. And then in this moment, I'm like, Okay,
I knew I had to leave that, I knew that,
(42:50):
but I didn't know where I was gonna go. And
that is a very different feeling for me. So right now,
what I'm trying to do is really be still and
still not in the physical stance. I'm still running around yourself, within,
within yourself, getting to that quiet place of that's right,
and not be so distracted, you know, by the other opportunities,
(43:16):
like making sure that that's actually what I want to do,
you know, And I do feel like, and this is
part of the difficulty. I do feel like there's unfinished
business for me in the corporate space. But the question
that I have for myself is do I need to
finish it? Do I need to finish it? Or can
I pass the baton to somebody else to do it? Yes, meaning,
if if Mark Zuckerberg came to you now that Cheryl
(43:39):
Sandberg has left and said, would you take on that
because God knows that company needs some of your bows magic?
Is that something you would even consider right? But that's
the thing, is that I have to actually sit with
that and feel whether or not that is the right
move for me. It can't be because of the math.
It's not because oh, well, look at this opportunity. You've
(44:01):
never done that role before, You've never done it a
company that size, you haven't. It can't be that, and
I recognize that it is. It is frustrating for the
people who like to advise me, But they advise you
for a reason, and they know how you lead, and
you lead with what feels intuitively right and where you
(44:23):
need to be. I'm sure where you need to be
to ultimately be of the most service and where that
fits with your ethics and your moral compass and your ideals.
And guess what that changes over you? Is it does?
And that is why this feels so different. You've hit
the nail on the head. It's like, I'm a different
(44:44):
person than I was five years ago, then I was
ten years ago, then I was fifteen years ago. And
therefore it's like, I've got to make the decisions based
on this version of me. It can't even be on
the future version, because that's what everybody wants to talk about, right.
They're like, well, if you did this thing, then in
five years you'll be here. It's like, well, why am I?
Why am I thinking about that future? I don't know
(45:05):
what I know? When the hell she mustn't do by
the way, by the way, by the way, it's about
getting present in today, and and you've been so busy
and working for so long that you probably haven't had
an extended period of time to be able to get
quiet and get still and do this kind of dig
deep recalibration that will have to happen before you can
(45:26):
even know what that answer is. That's that's exactly I
say this because I'm in it too. Well, look at
this exactly. That's how I know it so well because
I'm also in it. I am in that room. It's
it's a wild it's a wild thing, and it's it's.
Um it's a little shocking to me, you know, to
(45:47):
be a stage in my career right and be in
life and have this knowledge and be like, how can
I not? How do I It's to me it feels
like it's different, but it feels similar to like when
you're a teenager and you're like, oh, where do I
fit in the world, But you're not. You're a growing
up woman with growing ass kid. And yes, and this experience,
the whole thing found that, um, you know, I made
(46:11):
the habit by the way of like throwing away pro
and calm less, and I stopped making those, you know,
long term plans. I stopped doing that actually a long
time ago. And now I because I have the habit
of not doing them, I don't even know how to
begin doing that, you know what I mean, And and
so I'm not going to. But it is much more
difficult to, like we said, get still really understand the
(46:35):
intuitive voice and then make a decision based on that yes,
I understand, get the decision based on that. So it's
actually doing less, it's doing can imagine doing less? What
a concept? What a concept for type A do is
exactly from people who are bosses out here, you know,
trying to accomplish everything, who are ambitious do less. And
(47:00):
And also how incredible that your daughter is going to
get to have this stage of life role modeled. Yes,
because our daughters also need to know that there are
times where we have to slow down and go in
wood and stay true to ourselves. That's right, that's right,
that's right. And I really do hope that she we
(47:21):
will understand that, you know, as a principle for herself
in her own life. You know. Um, one of the things,
like I said, that is the hardest to do is
to just listen to yourself. You know, what do you
want to do? You know? Like I want because like
we said, there are well intentioned people who want to advise.
There's all there's all kind of inputs, you know, and
(47:41):
I really, I really do want her to see that
no one actually knows better for you than yourself. That
if you if you really take the time to considering
way what it is that you want you're going to
make the right decision, and that there's no there actually
no fear in that, you know. So for me, I'm
here trying to remember that. Yeah, well, let's continue this
(48:06):
discussion because I'm in the same space. So who are
some of the voices that have most inspired you on
your journey? Gosh, and in so many different types of ways,
you know. Um. One of the earliest influences for me
was my English teacher in Cloda Springs, Colorado, and I
(48:26):
was in the tenth grade. Um. She was so fascinating
because or she was so influential in my life because
she was the first person who told me I was
a good storyteller. You know. No one had said that
to me before. And it was interesting because like, I
come from a family of storytellers. It's like and and
Guanian culture is full of storytellers, you know, it's like
(48:49):
how you communicate everything. Um, but my dad is an
incredible storyteller, great orator, you know. And UM, I think
because I'd always just so admired him that I never
considered that I was good at it, not even great,
just good. And she was one of the first people
and UM, I hear her voice constantly. You know, even
(49:11):
now when I am trying to create a campaign or
think about a strategy, I think about the things that
she said to me at that time. You know, that
made me consider storytelling as my own talent, my own gift.
You know, she probably doesn't even know that, but um,
(49:31):
and then there have been other more practical influences. Spike Lee,
who was one of my first bosses. Um, he's a
great influence. Like and again, just what a great marketa
he is. You know who Spike Lee is. I don't
know who a lot of other directors are, look exactly.
But the thing I learned from him which was so
(49:51):
important was his unapologetic blackness. That man did not give
two ships whether or not you were mad about what
he said about blackness. Didn't don't care. And it was
it was incredible thing because I had up until that point.
You know, it's like you've seen a lot of people
sort of shifting change and made themselves smaller to try
(50:13):
and fit in to acceptable culture. And he was like,
oh no, I'm throwing it down if you don't like it,
so what actually, don't have to like you at all?
And and people call him more kind of names. You
know say that he has a bad attitude and he's
like an It sounds like he was a bit of
a role model for you. Oh yes, oh yes. I
so admired it because it was the It was one
(50:35):
of the first times I'd actually seen somebody who was
in the public eye who had a loud voice and
who didn't try to dim themselves, even the sharp edges.
He'd never tried to do it, and I thought that
was incredibly just absolutely amazing. And maybe I'd also say
um Ariana Huffington's who more recently has been such a
(50:57):
great influence to me. Um she always picks up the
phone and she just doesn't she she does that for
me too, and has been um when I when I
launched my interview series The Conversation, she was on the
first series and she helped me and has continued to
be available for me as well whenever I've reached out.
(51:20):
What I'm saying, it's like, but isn't that remarkable. Yeah,
she's so busy, she's got so many careers and she
still returns of text like almost instantly. I don't understand it,
you know, but it's it's inspiring to me because she
does the job of making you and me feel connected
(51:41):
to her, intimately connected to her. Uh and does that
for a lot of people I know. Yeah, she walks
the talk. She's one of those women that walks the talk.
You know what. We all know who they are because
we all know who the ones who don't and she's
the one that does. That's that's yes. So so she
is an influence you know, of somebody who really cares
(52:04):
deeply and makes you know that she cares deeply about you.
Has been a great influence to me too. That's great
to know. Yeah, Bose, thank you so much. It has
been such a treat to talk to you, and I
can't wait to do this again. No, thank you so much.
We're gonna have lots and lots of lots of other
conversations that we won't record, just for me and you.
(52:26):
You have been listening to VS Voices my immense thanks
to today's guest Bozuma st. John. If you love our show,
please comment, like, and follow us wherever you listen to
your favorite podcasts, and as always, please follow me amandit
Acadinet on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. VS Voices is part
of Victoria's Secrets ongoing commitment to become one of the
(52:49):
world's leading advocates for women. To deliver on that promise. Together,
we have created the Voices platform to do just that.
Amplify the voices, represent the views, and learn from the
unique perspectives of women from every background. Sharing stories bring
us closer together, and it's how we move forward, open
up dialogue and raise the game. Thank you for listening.
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