June 16, 2022 • 35 mins
It’s a highly-lucrative industry, but who really owns it? In her provocative new book, writer Fariha Roisin investigates the origin of wellness from the ancient civilizations of the East and traces it to present-day America. As a Muslim, queer, Bangladeshi-Canadian, Fariha’s own intersectionality is brilliantly demonstrated as she questions the way wellness has been adopted by Western culture. But is Fariha right? Host Amanda de Cadenet listens in as Fariha opens up about her identity and spirituality.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
My conversation today is with a trailblazer in the world
of wellness, literature and cultural criticism. She's an Australian Canadian
of Bangladeshi ancestry who also happens to be Muslim and queer.
Her name is Fariha Roshin, and I am so thrilled
that she's going to be on the show today. Fariha
is the author of two books. The first is a
(00:20):
collection of her stunningly beautiful poetry called How to Cure
a Ghost, and the second is her novel called Like
a Bird. Her latest book is called Who Is Wellness For?
And I started my conversation by asking her that very
same question. So what a great time for us to
speak because your book Who Is Wellness For? Is out
(00:45):
and I had the good fortune of reading it before
it came out, and I had so many questions and
was underlining things frantically and texting you photos of things,
asking you questions because I was so curious about a
(01:05):
lot of the things that you wrote. But if I
just look at the title who is Wellness For? What
does that mean? I think it's a it's a very
broad question. Two ask if not only myself but us
as a species, because it's something that's so basic, and
(01:29):
yet we live in a country where even that is
questioned and challenged um on so many different levels and
so many different fronts. And so I wanted to to
start and begin with a very rudimentary question, because I
think that's where we need to start with each other,
(01:51):
especially with regards to wellness. It's this huge thing, it's
this huge industry, and yet none of us are really
having an open and honest conversation about not only who
is it for, but what is it? What is wellness?
And the more I asked myself that I just came
(02:13):
to a very simple answer, and that is wellness is
for all, and it has to be otherwise it doesn't
make any sense. Otherwise we should call it something different,
exactly right. And why did you decide to write this
book now? I mean, it's interesting given the times, because
I think the book is very much in conversation with
(02:36):
the times, especially. I mean I wrote it during the pandemic,
so I was transmuting so much of this darkness. I
think that I was traversing through in my own life.
And I don't think I even really expected to go
certain places or I don't even know if I knew
(02:57):
what I was doing when I signed on to write
this book, but the timing is impeccable, and I feel
really excited for it to go out right now because
I think this is exactly when we're sort of at
that juncture right now, you know, three years into the pandemic,
we're sort of questioning a lot of things that I
(03:18):
think pre pandemic we weren't really concerned about because everything
felt or like to a lot of people, even me.
I think there was a sense that, you know, life
is just life, and you you move on, you get
on with it. And then we were halted and everything
came to a pause. And now so many of us
(03:38):
have actually had to go a little deeper into ourselves,
and so I don't know, I think, along with people,
along with where we are in the world right now,
I kind of started somewhere and then I went somewhere else.
But I don't I mean, I wanted to write this
book because it felt necessary. But what I've what I've
(03:59):
actually made, is something I think really beyond what I
was even anticipating. I know, I'm having so many conversations
with my community about the commodification of wellness and that
it's been so many incredible practices have been co opted
(04:23):
for a price, and or have been co opted and
then sold back two people for a high sticker price.
And yet those practices originated with people who did not
create them with the intention of selling them. So in
(04:44):
your book you talk a lot about how many practices
originated with people of color and were then sold to
wealthier people. Can you talk to me a little bit
about that and why you find that sort of damaging? Yeah, um,
we're just going to get right into a hero. Yeah,
(05:05):
I love it. Um. So it was something that I
was observing a lot being a South Asian person, obviously,
or maybe not obviously so, so much of the wellness
um world is invested in, particularly South Asian indigenous practices.
(05:26):
So everything from yoga to meditation is sourced from India.
It was Indians that that um founded them. So, you know,
with uh, with meditation, it was they they Kindu scholars,
that we're thinking about the mind and going into these
very very daunting places within themselves in order to even
comprehend what human life is. That's how that conversation of
(05:49):
meditation began. And then that current that sort of shifted
and moved into um Buddhism, and sort of with the
awaking awakening of Sata who Gothama, who was Budda he
uh he sort of then brought brought it in the
Buddhist lineage. And so we've got sort of these two
(06:12):
Hinduism and Buddhism, these two sort of lineages that are
highly invested in human psychology. Um. And also not only that,
but like, how does the body remain well in a
state of decom decomposition decomposition instead of like we are dying.
We are here where we are dying, but how can
(06:34):
we invest fully in in understanding every element of who
we are? And what's so sad to me is that
this is this is these are civilizations that we're thinking
about this for thousands of years and it was just
practices that were that were for your own betterment. They
(06:57):
were never supposed to be braided together with capitalism. They
were never It just is it doesn't make any sense.
And so you've got yoga, you've got meditation, two of
the biggest exports from India, and yet when it comes
to these things in the West, absolutely no, um, I mean,
(07:19):
I can't say outrightly no folks are or are of
that heritage, but by and large, so many of these
spaces are specifically for white people. And to me that
was really troubling. Because I grew up in Australia, I
didn't have a lot of access to understanding where I
(07:40):
was from. It was really really mothered and it was embarrassing.
Like I didn't like being Bangladeshi. I didn't know what
it meant. I didn't know other people like me, and
if I did, I didn't like them, like they didn't
feel like of my kin. So I was just so
ostracized and isolated and can used. And I mean it's
(08:02):
the age old tale that you hear a lot these days,
but like you know, being bullied and all of those
things that do happen. The saddest part of that is
not only not not just being bullied part because I
didn't really experience it that much. It was more just
how you then self isolate from your own culture and
you're like you reject it, and then it becomes a
(08:23):
rejection of self, and then you're rejecting not only who
you come from, your ancestry everything, and then you're kind
of like you come into your twenties and you're like,
who am I? You don't even and where do I
go and where do I fit? And what you're saying
is that the the origins of these incredible practices are
(08:44):
not from when they exist in Western culture. They're not inclusive,
is what you're saying, right exactly exactly what does what
would that look like to you? If they were inclusive?
It would mean more people of color were actually not
only in these spaces, but had accessibility to them, and that,
(09:08):
like I think, true equality and I'm talking quality within
nations India wouldn't be just extracted from Like something that
really bothers me is that three fifty million people live
below the poverty line. And this is a nation that
that supports a billion dollar industry, that is the wellness
and dust industry. So to me that obviously there's just
(09:30):
so many things that are not going wrong or going right,
and there's well, I guess we essentially need to correct
as a society and understand that we can't just extract
from culture and make money for some people and not others.
That that's right there, I mean inevitably, when practices or
(09:52):
when anything, even if you think about like a recipe
that is passed down through generations. Right, there is going
to be iterations as each new perspective is added to
the mix, if you will. And I in a way,
the Western adaptation of what has been taken from India,
(10:17):
as you say, is it almost couldn't be successful if
it hadn't been iterated on because the Western perspective is different, right,
And I think there's there's good things about people being
able to be exposed to practices that are immensely beneficial.
(10:38):
But what you're saying is on the other side of that,
there's there's no way of this. There isn't a payback,
There isn't an honoring of the origins whereas that and
that is ultimately the issue, because it's not it's great
that people are taking care of themselves everybody. If wellness
is for all, then then these practices absolutely they should
(11:00):
be accessible to all, but they're not, and that is
the issue. I want to go back a little bit
um and just talk about the kind of commodification some more.
When you say commodification, what are you talking about specifically? Specifically?
It's you know, taking taking something and then decontextualizing it
(11:27):
and then making it sort of chic or something that
it's that that it's not necessarily in order to fit
a different audiences taste. And again, like you said, I
don't think that that's necessarily a bad thing. I think
that there is beauty and commodification, but I think I
also think that the word commodification in essence does mean
(11:51):
that like one party is being taken from or like
something's being you know, like commodified in order to be
distilled into something else, and for for like financial benefits exactly. Yeah, yeah,
I mean I definitely have seen a massive uptick, and
(12:11):
especially it started well before the pandemic, but certainly during
the pandemic. You know, I have seen a massive uptick
of you know, self help people, you know Instagram people
who have giant following all of a sudden, and they're
pre there, you know, talking about all types of you know, wellness,
(12:33):
from mental health to physical health, spiritual health, physical health,
all of it, all of it, all types of wellness,
and a lot of them are not researched or accredited.
And and it's really interesting actually because there's a couple
of them who I really like. There's a couple who
I just think you are full of shit, but they're
doing really well. And then there's a couple who I
(12:55):
really like, and um, and I've had dialogue with a
couple of them, and I'm like, so, you know, what
are your rates because you work with people privately, and
their rates, hands down, have been at least double what
trained psychologists that I've worked with a charging And I
was thinking, oh, I'm in the wrong business, Like this
(13:15):
is like this is deep, you know, I mean, like,
all right, good for you if your if people are
paying you this, but wow, I was I've been shocked
every time exactly. I mean I really have. And and
me I mean, and that's that's the worrying thing. Like
there's people that are taking this information decontextualizing it, not
(13:36):
really fully aware of what they're saying, but feel so
authoritative enough to make hundreds thousands of dollars worth of
money that they that they don't necessarily even deserve. And
I know deserve is like a complicated thing too, but
the Instagram commodification or the TikTok commodification is deeply worrying
(13:58):
to me because I think what's also in that word
is that it's like just going to the masses and
when it goes to the masses. Again, it's the most
distilled version, So what are you really doing with that information?
I feel this way about astrology a lot. It's like,
it's great that we all know our sun moons another,
but then like, what does all of that mean? And
(14:18):
when you lose meaning, it's not important anymore? And what
is what is the what is the what is the impact?
Then when the meaning is lost, to me, I'm sentimental
and I feel like as a culture we're so disconnected
because meaning is lost, we don't really have that kind
of connectivity that we have once had. And context, like
(14:41):
you said, context is also lost. I mean where I
find it challenging personally is when I encounter people who
have an Instagram education about a wellness subject. And not
to say I'm an expert on any level other than
I have been on my own healing journey for the
(15:02):
majority of my life since I'm a teenager at this point,
so I can speak somewhat, you know, from personal experience
on quite a few things. I'm not an expert by
by any stretch of the imagination, but I encounter people
who say things or who are who are have adopted
a certain perspective or approach that when I dig into it,
it's like, oh no, there's somebody I follow on Instagram
(15:23):
that talks about boundaries or talks about whatever the thing is,
and more often than not, it is very shallow. Exactly,
you're listening to VS voices, Please stick around and we
will have more for you right after this break. You
(15:49):
know that people are going to be upset that you
wrote this book, right, Yes, I'm absolutely aware, and I
know that, and I mean and what you're saying, you know,
like all of this misinformation, it's leading us more and
more into this confusion and then therefore disassociation with each
(16:11):
other and ourselves. And I know that that I talk
about that in the book. To become aware, to become
self aware is one of the most honest things that
you can do, and that's all I'm asking for, honesty.
And and yet I know it's still going to frustrate people,
and to me, it's it's it's kind of exhilarating because
(16:31):
this kind of conversation actually hasn't happened at this level before.
And so I'm happy to be the person that's like, yeah,
we need to start here. This is where we need
to start, we need to be looking each other in
the eye and being like, hey, this is uncomfortable. I
think that you know. I say this in the book
as well. Discomfort is really valuable as a feeling, you know,
(16:55):
especially as you evolve. You know, you've you know, you've
you have been committed to the healing path since you
were a teenager, and so you know how much of
it is actually being uncomfortable with yourself and looking at
yourself and being like, I'm doing this and I shouldn't
be doing this. How do I rectify this? And being
able to tolerate uncomfortable feelings within ourselves. If we don't
(17:20):
learn how to do that, and we're not taught how
to do that, then we spend our lives running away
from anything and everything everyone that evokes that feeling in us.
And in my experience, much of life is feeling, if
you're living honestly, is about feeling those uncomfortable feelings. And
(17:40):
yet we don't teach people resilience around those feelings. And
I'm going to say it is hard to do. It
is not like, yeah, let me do this one thing
and let me flip that switch and I'll be able
to do it. I still struggle with it on a
daily basis, and yet it is one of the most
crucial things we can learn. And you and I have
(18:03):
talked about this. Having difficult conversations is so imperative because
life is filled with them. Yeah, and if we can't
have them, then we cannot progress. And your book, Who
Is Wellness Full, is an invitation to have multiple uncomfortable conversations,
(18:24):
both with other people and ultimately ourselves. And that's where
the work starts. I think it has to start with yourself.
It has to start by beginning to actually witness yourself
in a more truthful way and and seeing those patterns
and seeing how you you know, potentially replicate violence. I mean,
there's so many things. For me, I'm an abuse survivor.
(18:47):
I really had to look at myself clearly and and
see the own patterning and myself that was like allowing
me to get back into the same situation again and
again and again, um and have sort of toxic relationships
with people. It takes a level of um curiosity, I think,
(19:09):
to want to go to those places in yourself, which
is why I bring in that playfulness in the book
and in myself. I think it's really important to talk
about playfulness and like, yes, this work is immensely hard,
and absolutely it's exhausting and all of those things. And
yet I'm definitely at one level of my own healing
(19:31):
right now today where I feel excited and I feel
like there's so many places that I can go within myself.
And these times are daunting, but their revolutionary times. And
I keep reminding myself that you know, that crucible that's
needed to shift, to really really shift and and go
(19:55):
to the direction, go towards the utopia that we're all
fi ing for. What is your hope that this book
will do. I mean, I am so invested in the earth,
and I think ecologically we are at very troubling times.
And if this book could encourage Americans by and large
(20:17):
the West to think a lot more about there about
the cost of living and the cost of energy, of
the cost of UM. You saw that with UM the
Amazon Union labors recently, UM and you know, just yeah,
(20:40):
like we have to start thinking where where do things
come from? And who puts the labor into the thing
that you want us just becoming more connected also means
that we see that that sort of day to day
effort that goes into existing and you know, like the
person that's making your coffee, maybe he doesn't want to
(21:00):
be making your coffee. Like, how do you start engaging
in in a way that's not just like I deserve
nice things. I think self care was good for a
while because we started to think a lot more about, oh,
it's important to care for yourself. But now it's it's
embroiled in capitalism and it's like by this, by that,
I want peoples to fix you, this want fix you this,
(21:23):
you know this myth that something will fix you. And
I think it's not about wanting to be fixed. And
that's the cool thing about healing. It's like really really
trusting and believing that you know the path is worthwhile
committing to that path. It might take you your whole life,
it probably will, but it's so worthy of your attention.
(21:44):
And I feel the same way about you know, coming
back to the earth and finding practices the on that
ont of the earth, composting something so basic. If more
people started to think that way, I think that we
could actually do something extremely moving for this world and
protect it. And that's what I'm fighting for. We'll take
(22:07):
a break and then we'll be right back. This is
the VS Voices podcast. I want to talk to you
a little bit about your faith because you speak so
eloquently about being queer and your faith, and many people
(22:33):
find it surprising when you would say that Islam isn't
opposed to lgb t Q inclusivity. So can you talk
a little bit about why people should not be surprised
to hear that? Yeah, Um, I mean this has a
lot to do with colonization, which is a funny place
to start, but in my own Muslim education and kind
(22:56):
of coming back to the origins meant that I had
to look at, um, what Islamic civilization was like before
colonization came in. And it was nine and day Um.
You know, in India, the British government brought in Section
three seven seven, which was a anti homosexuality law. Um,
(23:20):
and that shifted the civilization obviously, and all of a sudden,
you know, things that were quite cultural and and and
and a part of society, like homosexuality was now no
longer um accepted. But you're saying, prior to that, homosexuality
was a part of Muslim culture. Yeah, a lot of
(23:44):
a lot of Like it was very opening and part
of the culture and it was very much um, like
the emperors, you know, people in power, they had male lovers,
they were they were very it was like it was
sort of because Islamic society looked to the Greeks. That's
where they got a lot of inspiration from and and
they were the reason why we read a lot of
Greek literature. Now, the reason why why we can read
(24:06):
Plato and Aristotle is because it was translated from Greek
into Arabic and then into English. So there's this like
really cool lineage in Islam where for eight hundred years UM,
before Isabella and Fernando came into Spain, Uh, Muslims were
you know, inventing all kinds of things, and they were
(24:29):
looking at they were sort of doing what Indians were doing, um,
And they looked at Indian cultural a lot, at Vadic
scholars a lot to sort of understand what is humanity,
what is life? That's the kind of origin, um that
makes sense to me. Like the more I started to
like put together my own cultural history and my own
(24:51):
cultural origins and my own religious origins and began to
sort of go back to the history books and look
further and deeper, I not just believe what media was
telling me, even about Islam. Because I grew up in
a post nine eleven world, I had to so much.
Islamophobia just became a part of my own existence. You know,
(25:14):
like Muslim silenced themselves for twenty years because they were
so deeply ashamed of what happened. We took on that burden,
and that disassociated us from ourselves and our histories. And
so you know, there's been so much that's been done
to sort of silence us and to quash where we
(25:35):
come from. And that is a colonial tactic. It is
what they wanted. And so I write this a lot
in the book. So much of my I think personhood
is understanding who I am. I'm not a product of
the West. I'm a product of myself, and I'm a
product of my culture, and I'm a product of my faith,
(25:57):
and I'm a product of my spirituality. Though, are the
things that have grounded me. And I want people to
understand that. I want to I want people to know
how much God is a part of my work and
how that coming back to that, coming back to what
is mine has been the most liberating thing I could
have done for myself. Because I'm not doing it for
anybody else. I don't even need to be understood by
(26:20):
anybody else but I myself. I just have to understand myself.
That's all I want. Wouldn't that be great? Can you
talk a little bit more about how religion helped you
heal from your abortion? Yeah? I so. I found out
(26:47):
when I was eighteen that I was pregnant, uh January,
just a couple of weeks before my birthday, my nineteenth birthday.
And I was shocked because I had I really believed
for a time that I would, you know, do the
right thing and get married and have a child. But
(27:11):
that didn't That's not what happened to me. I fell
in love and I wanted to have sex, and so
I did. UM. And after I got the abortion, truthfully,
I felt so abandoned by God. I didn't understand why
I was been being given this lesson. I didn't understand
(27:32):
why I was being punished. I felt very punished. Um.
And it has been such a journey, but I coming
back to God and understanding that the God that I
am connected to you and the God of my faith,
(27:53):
the God that I believe in, is the God that
is merciful and kind and compassionate, and you know, we
we forget that, we forget that we're so fearing of God.
We live in a society that wants you to fear God,
that things, you know, everything that you do has to
be tallied in order for you to be afraid of
(28:15):
your life so you can remain good. Why are we
here then? Why are we here in this very chaotic
world with so many different things around us not to
be I think binary and dogma is so dangerous, and
I try and really stay away from those things. To me,
(28:35):
God is fluidity, and God is in my own understanding expansion.
And what I like always loved about Islam is that
the first word of the Koran is read. And you know,
this is a civilization that was removing cataracts from eyeballs,
(28:58):
and like the fourteenth century and reading Plato and Aristotle
and translating. You know, they had books that had twenty
books um and in one library. Like it was such
a ahead of the times, so ahead of the time,
like beyond beyond beyond, you know, and like the courts
had you know, astrologers and and it was just so
(29:18):
extraordinary from what I know and when I'm reading and
the more and more I see it. I I understand
myself through that prism, you know, because I'm like, that's
who I am. I thought I was an anomaly, but
I'm not. I'm just tapping into my ancestry. Isn't it
great when you realize that you're not that special? Oh
it's so liberating. Yeah, it really is. It's like, oh no,
(29:40):
I'm just like I there's so many of us and
I'm one of them. Yeah. It's so powerful, it really is.
It really is. You can just lose that a tonal
uniqueness and yeah, yeah, I find it very freeing. Yeah.
I want to ask you about voices that inspire you,
because you're not the first critic of yoga and wellness
(30:04):
in the US and in the West, but you're one
of the voices that is breaking through. And I want
to know who the voices are that inspire you and
the work that you're doing. I mean, the first person
that comes to mind is James Baldwin. I think of him,
and you know, a queer man, a queer black man
(30:26):
in America when that it wasn't safe to be either
speaking so eloquently about everything from race too to love
and and and that that kind of like ability to
sort of talk about so many different things and the
complexities and the layers of what it means to be human.
(30:48):
That's what I'm constantly seeking, um in myself and in
my own writing. So Baldwin is is such an important
person for me. At Al ad Nan, who just recently passed,
was an ext j ordinary writer and painter Um of
Syrian Lebanese origin, and you know she was openly queer.
(31:08):
Her partners also Syrian. Like it again, like it's it's
sort of finding, you know, these elders that you can
see yourself in all of a sudden, you know, your
own path becomes clear Um and June Jordans, Tony, Tony Morrison,
Audrey Lord, I mean Audrey Lord's work on self care.
(31:32):
Bell Hooks and Audrey Lord were so so important to
me when I was first investigating self care because they
were extraordinary thinkers of their time, but they were thinking
about the radicality of what it means to to love
yourself in a world that can't love you, or refuses
to love you, or or openly doesn't want to show
(31:54):
you love. You know, I think, especially given what's happening
right now in the world in general, it's just it's
painful because there are so many people that are against us.
There's so many people that don't want your, your or
I to thrive because of our gender, because of whatever,
(32:17):
and mainly because of our gender. And to me, it
is extraordinary not only to fight, but to find tenderness
within that, you know, like to me, vulnerability, And I
think it is very much a product of being and
recognizing that I'm a I'm a child sexual abuse survivor,
(32:39):
which saying that is again like really relieving because it
just means that I lay bare everything that you need
to know about me. Every projection that one has of
me then is dolted by that you know. And to me,
that's exciting because I'm not. We all are so complex.
We didn't put each other in little, tiny holes. And
(33:03):
and I turned to writing, and I turned to writers
that were constantly pushing the boundaries and being like, no,
there's so much more here and to find vulnerability and
tenderness and love and beauty. John O'Donohue, who's a Celtic
priest and poet, wrote this a lot, and I think
about it so much about finding beauty in dark times
(33:27):
in your mind, so you can return to that beautiful thing,
whatever it is, whether it's a sunset or the see
the sound of the ocean, whatever it is, finding those things,
going to that and being able to just be present
with yourself. We all need a home inside of us
that we can go to to nut, draw ourselves, replenish, rest, yeah,
(33:53):
and then go back out into the world. Yeah. We
need that. Thank you so much for your time. Thank
you such a treat. Thank you, and I'm so excited
to see what your book, Who Is Wellness For does
in the world. I know it's going to have an
(34:14):
incredible impact. Thank you. That means so much to me
coming from you, this whole conversation. Thank you for having
me and thank you for seeing me. Thank you for
letting yourself be seen. Thanks for listening to VS Voices.
My thanks to today's guest, Very Hiroshin. If you love
our show, please comment, like, and subscribe to wherever you
(34:37):
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(34:57):
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women from every background. Sharing stories bring us closer together,
and it's how we move forward. Open up dialogue and
raise the game.
My conversation today is with a trailblazer in the world
of wellness, literature and cultural criticism. She's an Australian Canadian
of Bangladeshi ancestry who also happens to be Muslim and queer.
Her name is Fariha Roshin, and I am so thrilled
that she's going to be on the show today. Fariha
is the author of two books. The first is a
(00:20):
collection of her stunningly beautiful poetry called How to Cure
a Ghost, and the second is her novel called Like
a Bird. Her latest book is called Who Is Wellness For?
And I started my conversation by asking her that very
same question. So what a great time for us to
speak because your book Who Is Wellness For? Is out
(00:45):
and I had the good fortune of reading it before
it came out, and I had so many questions and
was underlining things frantically and texting you photos of things,
asking you questions because I was so curious about a
(01:05):
lot of the things that you wrote. But if I
just look at the title who is Wellness For? What
does that mean? I think it's a it's a very
broad question. Two ask if not only myself but us
as a species, because it's something that's so basic, and
(01:29):
yet we live in a country where even that is
questioned and challenged um on so many different levels and
so many different fronts. And so I wanted to to
start and begin with a very rudimentary question, because I
think that's where we need to start with each other,
(01:51):
especially with regards to wellness. It's this huge thing, it's
this huge industry, and yet none of us are really
having an open and honest conversation about not only who
is it for, but what is it? What is wellness?
And the more I asked myself that I just came
(02:13):
to a very simple answer, and that is wellness is
for all, and it has to be otherwise it doesn't
make any sense. Otherwise we should call it something different,
exactly right. And why did you decide to write this
book now? I mean, it's interesting given the times, because
I think the book is very much in conversation with
(02:36):
the times, especially. I mean I wrote it during the pandemic,
so I was transmuting so much of this darkness. I
think that I was traversing through in my own life.
And I don't think I even really expected to go
certain places or I don't even know if I knew
(02:57):
what I was doing when I signed on to write
this book, but the timing is impeccable, and I feel
really excited for it to go out right now because
I think this is exactly when we're sort of at
that juncture right now, you know, three years into the pandemic,
we're sort of questioning a lot of things that I
(03:18):
think pre pandemic we weren't really concerned about because everything
felt or like to a lot of people, even me.
I think there was a sense that, you know, life
is just life, and you you move on, you get
on with it. And then we were halted and everything
came to a pause. And now so many of us
(03:38):
have actually had to go a little deeper into ourselves,
and so I don't know, I think, along with people,
along with where we are in the world right now,
I kind of started somewhere and then I went somewhere else.
But I don't I mean, I wanted to write this
book because it felt necessary. But what I've what I've
(03:59):
actually made, is something I think really beyond what I
was even anticipating. I know, I'm having so many conversations
with my community about the commodification of wellness and that
it's been so many incredible practices have been co opted
(04:23):
for a price, and or have been co opted and
then sold back two people for a high sticker price.
And yet those practices originated with people who did not
create them with the intention of selling them. So in
(04:44):
your book you talk a lot about how many practices
originated with people of color and were then sold to
wealthier people. Can you talk to me a little bit
about that and why you find that sort of damaging? Yeah, um,
we're just going to get right into a hero. Yeah,
(05:05):
I love it. Um. So it was something that I
was observing a lot being a South Asian person, obviously,
or maybe not obviously so, so much of the wellness
um world is invested in, particularly South Asian indigenous practices.
(05:26):
So everything from yoga to meditation is sourced from India.
It was Indians that that um founded them. So, you know,
with uh, with meditation, it was they they Kindu scholars,
that we're thinking about the mind and going into these
very very daunting places within themselves in order to even
comprehend what human life is. That's how that conversation of
(05:49):
meditation began. And then that current that sort of shifted
and moved into um Buddhism, and sort of with the
awaking awakening of Sata who Gothama, who was Budda he
uh he sort of then brought brought it in the
Buddhist lineage. And so we've got sort of these two
(06:12):
Hinduism and Buddhism, these two sort of lineages that are
highly invested in human psychology. Um. And also not only that,
but like, how does the body remain well in a
state of decom decomposition decomposition instead of like we are dying.
We are here where we are dying, but how can
(06:34):
we invest fully in in understanding every element of who
we are? And what's so sad to me is that
this is this is these are civilizations that we're thinking
about this for thousands of years and it was just
practices that were that were for your own betterment. They
(06:57):
were never supposed to be braided together with capitalism. They
were never It just is it doesn't make any sense.
And so you've got yoga, you've got meditation, two of
the biggest exports from India, and yet when it comes
to these things in the West, absolutely no, um, I mean,
(07:19):
I can't say outrightly no folks are or are of
that heritage, but by and large, so many of these
spaces are specifically for white people. And to me that
was really troubling. Because I grew up in Australia, I
didn't have a lot of access to understanding where I
(07:40):
was from. It was really really mothered and it was embarrassing.
Like I didn't like being Bangladeshi. I didn't know what
it meant. I didn't know other people like me, and
if I did, I didn't like them, like they didn't
feel like of my kin. So I was just so
ostracized and isolated and can used. And I mean it's
(08:02):
the age old tale that you hear a lot these days,
but like you know, being bullied and all of those
things that do happen. The saddest part of that is
not only not not just being bullied part because I
didn't really experience it that much. It was more just
how you then self isolate from your own culture and
you're like you reject it, and then it becomes a
(08:23):
rejection of self, and then you're rejecting not only who
you come from, your ancestry everything, and then you're kind
of like you come into your twenties and you're like,
who am I? You don't even and where do I
go and where do I fit? And what you're saying
is that the the origins of these incredible practices are
(08:44):
not from when they exist in Western culture. They're not inclusive,
is what you're saying, right exactly exactly what does what
would that look like to you? If they were inclusive?
It would mean more people of color were actually not
only in these spaces, but had accessibility to them, and that,
(09:08):
like I think, true equality and I'm talking quality within
nations India wouldn't be just extracted from Like something that
really bothers me is that three fifty million people live
below the poverty line. And this is a nation that
that supports a billion dollar industry, that is the wellness
and dust industry. So to me that obviously there's just
(09:30):
so many things that are not going wrong or going right,
and there's well, I guess we essentially need to correct
as a society and understand that we can't just extract
from culture and make money for some people and not others.
That that's right there, I mean inevitably, when practices or
(09:52):
when anything, even if you think about like a recipe
that is passed down through generations. Right, there is going
to be iterations as each new perspective is added to
the mix, if you will. And I in a way,
the Western adaptation of what has been taken from India,
(10:17):
as you say, is it almost couldn't be successful if
it hadn't been iterated on because the Western perspective is different, right,
And I think there's there's good things about people being
able to be exposed to practices that are immensely beneficial.
(10:38):
But what you're saying is on the other side of that,
there's there's no way of this. There isn't a payback,
There isn't an honoring of the origins whereas that and
that is ultimately the issue, because it's not it's great
that people are taking care of themselves everybody. If wellness
is for all, then then these practices absolutely they should
(11:00):
be accessible to all, but they're not, and that is
the issue. I want to go back a little bit
um and just talk about the kind of commodification some more.
When you say commodification, what are you talking about specifically? Specifically?
It's you know, taking taking something and then decontextualizing it
(11:27):
and then making it sort of chic or something that
it's that that it's not necessarily in order to fit
a different audiences taste. And again, like you said, I
don't think that that's necessarily a bad thing. I think
that there is beauty and commodification, but I think I
also think that the word commodification in essence does mean
(11:51):
that like one party is being taken from or like
something's being you know, like commodified in order to be
distilled into something else, and for for like financial benefits exactly. Yeah, yeah,
I mean I definitely have seen a massive uptick, and
(12:11):
especially it started well before the pandemic, but certainly during
the pandemic. You know, I have seen a massive uptick
of you know, self help people, you know Instagram people
who have giant following all of a sudden, and they're
pre there, you know, talking about all types of you know, wellness,
(12:33):
from mental health to physical health, spiritual health, physical health,
all of it, all of it, all types of wellness,
and a lot of them are not researched or accredited.
And and it's really interesting actually because there's a couple
of them who I really like. There's a couple who
I just think you are full of shit, but they're
doing really well. And then there's a couple who I
(12:55):
really like, and um, and I've had dialogue with a
couple of them, and I'm like, so, you know, what
are your rates because you work with people privately, and
their rates, hands down, have been at least double what
trained psychologists that I've worked with a charging And I
was thinking, oh, I'm in the wrong business, Like this
(13:15):
is like this is deep, you know, I mean, like,
all right, good for you if your if people are
paying you this, but wow, I was I've been shocked
every time exactly. I mean I really have. And and
me I mean, and that's that's the worrying thing. Like
there's people that are taking this information decontextualizing it, not
(13:36):
really fully aware of what they're saying, but feel so
authoritative enough to make hundreds thousands of dollars worth of
money that they that they don't necessarily even deserve. And
I know deserve is like a complicated thing too, but
the Instagram commodification or the TikTok commodification is deeply worrying
(13:58):
to me because I think what's also in that word
is that it's like just going to the masses and
when it goes to the masses. Again, it's the most
distilled version, So what are you really doing with that information?
I feel this way about astrology a lot. It's like,
it's great that we all know our sun moons another,
but then like, what does all of that mean? And
(14:18):
when you lose meaning, it's not important anymore? And what
is what is the what is the what is the impact?
Then when the meaning is lost, to me, I'm sentimental
and I feel like as a culture we're so disconnected
because meaning is lost, we don't really have that kind
of connectivity that we have once had. And context, like
(14:41):
you said, context is also lost. I mean where I
find it challenging personally is when I encounter people who
have an Instagram education about a wellness subject. And not
to say I'm an expert on any level other than
I have been on my own healing journey for the
(15:02):
majority of my life since I'm a teenager at this point,
so I can speak somewhat, you know, from personal experience
on quite a few things. I'm not an expert by
by any stretch of the imagination, but I encounter people
who say things or who are who are have adopted
a certain perspective or approach that when I dig into it,
it's like, oh no, there's somebody I follow on Instagram
(15:23):
that talks about boundaries or talks about whatever the thing is,
and more often than not, it is very shallow. Exactly,
you're listening to VS voices, Please stick around and we
will have more for you right after this break. You
(15:49):
know that people are going to be upset that you
wrote this book, right, Yes, I'm absolutely aware, and I
know that, and I mean and what you're saying, you know,
like all of this misinformation, it's leading us more and
more into this confusion and then therefore disassociation with each
(16:11):
other and ourselves. And I know that that I talk
about that in the book. To become aware, to become
self aware is one of the most honest things that
you can do, and that's all I'm asking for, honesty.
And and yet I know it's still going to frustrate people,
and to me, it's it's it's kind of exhilarating because
(16:31):
this kind of conversation actually hasn't happened at this level before.
And so I'm happy to be the person that's like, yeah,
we need to start here. This is where we need
to start, we need to be looking each other in
the eye and being like, hey, this is uncomfortable. I
think that you know. I say this in the book
as well. Discomfort is really valuable as a feeling, you know,
(16:55):
especially as you evolve. You know, you've you know, you've
you have been committed to the healing path since you
were a teenager, and so you know how much of
it is actually being uncomfortable with yourself and looking at
yourself and being like, I'm doing this and I shouldn't
be doing this. How do I rectify this? And being
able to tolerate uncomfortable feelings within ourselves. If we don't
(17:20):
learn how to do that, and we're not taught how
to do that, then we spend our lives running away
from anything and everything everyone that evokes that feeling in us.
And in my experience, much of life is feeling, if
you're living honestly, is about feeling those uncomfortable feelings. And
(17:40):
yet we don't teach people resilience around those feelings. And
I'm going to say it is hard to do. It
is not like, yeah, let me do this one thing
and let me flip that switch and I'll be able
to do it. I still struggle with it on a
daily basis, and yet it is one of the most
crucial things we can learn. And you and I have
(18:03):
talked about this. Having difficult conversations is so imperative because
life is filled with them. Yeah, and if we can't
have them, then we cannot progress. And your book, Who
Is Wellness Full, is an invitation to have multiple uncomfortable conversations,
(18:24):
both with other people and ultimately ourselves. And that's where
the work starts. I think it has to start with yourself.
It has to start by beginning to actually witness yourself
in a more truthful way and and seeing those patterns
and seeing how you you know, potentially replicate violence. I mean,
there's so many things. For me, I'm an abuse survivor.
(18:47):
I really had to look at myself clearly and and
see the own patterning and myself that was like allowing
me to get back into the same situation again and
again and again, um and have sort of toxic relationships
with people. It takes a level of um curiosity, I think,
(19:09):
to want to go to those places in yourself, which
is why I bring in that playfulness in the book
and in myself. I think it's really important to talk
about playfulness and like, yes, this work is immensely hard,
and absolutely it's exhausting and all of those things. And
yet I'm definitely at one level of my own healing
(19:31):
right now today where I feel excited and I feel
like there's so many places that I can go within myself.
And these times are daunting, but their revolutionary times. And
I keep reminding myself that you know, that crucible that's
needed to shift, to really really shift and and go
(19:55):
to the direction, go towards the utopia that we're all
fi ing for. What is your hope that this book
will do. I mean, I am so invested in the earth,
and I think ecologically we are at very troubling times.
And if this book could encourage Americans by and large
(20:17):
the West to think a lot more about there about
the cost of living and the cost of energy, of
the cost of UM. You saw that with UM the
Amazon Union labors recently, UM and you know, just yeah,
(20:40):
like we have to start thinking where where do things
come from? And who puts the labor into the thing
that you want us just becoming more connected also means
that we see that that sort of day to day
effort that goes into existing and you know, like the
person that's making your coffee, maybe he doesn't want to
(21:00):
be making your coffee. Like, how do you start engaging
in in a way that's not just like I deserve
nice things. I think self care was good for a
while because we started to think a lot more about, oh,
it's important to care for yourself. But now it's it's
embroiled in capitalism and it's like by this, by that,
I want peoples to fix you, this want fix you this,
(21:23):
you know this myth that something will fix you. And
I think it's not about wanting to be fixed. And
that's the cool thing about healing. It's like really really
trusting and believing that you know the path is worthwhile
committing to that path. It might take you your whole life,
it probably will, but it's so worthy of your attention.
(21:44):
And I feel the same way about you know, coming
back to the earth and finding practices the on that
ont of the earth, composting something so basic. If more
people started to think that way, I think that we
could actually do something extremely moving for this world and
protect it. And that's what I'm fighting for. We'll take
(22:07):
a break and then we'll be right back. This is
the VS Voices podcast. I want to talk to you
a little bit about your faith because you speak so
eloquently about being queer and your faith, and many people
(22:33):
find it surprising when you would say that Islam isn't
opposed to lgb t Q inclusivity. So can you talk
a little bit about why people should not be surprised
to hear that? Yeah, Um, I mean this has a
lot to do with colonization, which is a funny place
to start, but in my own Muslim education and kind
(22:56):
of coming back to the origins meant that I had
to look at, um, what Islamic civilization was like before
colonization came in. And it was nine and day Um.
You know, in India, the British government brought in Section
three seven seven, which was a anti homosexuality law. Um,
(23:20):
and that shifted the civilization obviously, and all of a sudden,
you know, things that were quite cultural and and and
and a part of society, like homosexuality was now no
longer um accepted. But you're saying, prior to that, homosexuality
was a part of Muslim culture. Yeah, a lot of
(23:44):
a lot of Like it was very opening and part
of the culture and it was very much um, like
the emperors, you know, people in power, they had male lovers,
they were they were very it was like it was
sort of because Islamic society looked to the Greeks. That's
where they got a lot of inspiration from and and
they were the reason why we read a lot of
Greek literature. Now, the reason why why we can read
(24:06):
Plato and Aristotle is because it was translated from Greek
into Arabic and then into English. So there's this like
really cool lineage in Islam where for eight hundred years UM,
before Isabella and Fernando came into Spain, Uh, Muslims were
you know, inventing all kinds of things, and they were
(24:29):
looking at they were sort of doing what Indians were doing, um,
And they looked at Indian cultural a lot, at Vadic
scholars a lot to sort of understand what is humanity,
what is life? That's the kind of origin, um that
makes sense to me. Like the more I started to
like put together my own cultural history and my own
(24:51):
cultural origins and my own religious origins and began to
sort of go back to the history books and look
further and deeper, I not just believe what media was
telling me, even about Islam. Because I grew up in
a post nine eleven world, I had to so much.
Islamophobia just became a part of my own existence. You know,
(25:14):
like Muslim silenced themselves for twenty years because they were
so deeply ashamed of what happened. We took on that burden,
and that disassociated us from ourselves and our histories. And
so you know, there's been so much that's been done
to sort of silence us and to quash where we
(25:35):
come from. And that is a colonial tactic. It is
what they wanted. And so I write this a lot
in the book. So much of my I think personhood
is understanding who I am. I'm not a product of
the West. I'm a product of myself, and I'm a
product of my culture, and I'm a product of my faith,
(25:57):
and I'm a product of my spirituality. Though, are the
things that have grounded me. And I want people to
understand that. I want to I want people to know
how much God is a part of my work and
how that coming back to that, coming back to what
is mine has been the most liberating thing I could
have done for myself. Because I'm not doing it for
anybody else. I don't even need to be understood by
(26:20):
anybody else but I myself. I just have to understand myself.
That's all I want. Wouldn't that be great? Can you
talk a little bit more about how religion helped you
heal from your abortion? Yeah? I so. I found out
(26:47):
when I was eighteen that I was pregnant, uh January,
just a couple of weeks before my birthday, my nineteenth birthday.
And I was shocked because I had I really believed
for a time that I would, you know, do the
right thing and get married and have a child. But
(27:11):
that didn't That's not what happened to me. I fell
in love and I wanted to have sex, and so
I did. UM. And after I got the abortion, truthfully,
I felt so abandoned by God. I didn't understand why
I was been being given this lesson. I didn't understand
(27:32):
why I was being punished. I felt very punished. Um.
And it has been such a journey, but I coming
back to God and understanding that the God that I
am connected to you and the God of my faith,
(27:53):
the God that I believe in, is the God that
is merciful and kind and compassionate, and you know, we
we forget that, we forget that we're so fearing of God.
We live in a society that wants you to fear God,
that things, you know, everything that you do has to
be tallied in order for you to be afraid of
(28:15):
your life so you can remain good. Why are we
here then? Why are we here in this very chaotic
world with so many different things around us not to
be I think binary and dogma is so dangerous, and
I try and really stay away from those things. To me,
(28:35):
God is fluidity, and God is in my own understanding expansion.
And what I like always loved about Islam is that
the first word of the Koran is read. And you know,
this is a civilization that was removing cataracts from eyeballs,
(28:58):
and like the fourteenth century and reading Plato and Aristotle
and translating. You know, they had books that had twenty
books um and in one library. Like it was such
a ahead of the times, so ahead of the time,
like beyond beyond beyond, you know, and like the courts
had you know, astrologers and and it was just so
(29:18):
extraordinary from what I know and when I'm reading and
the more and more I see it. I I understand
myself through that prism, you know, because I'm like, that's
who I am. I thought I was an anomaly, but
I'm not. I'm just tapping into my ancestry. Isn't it
great when you realize that you're not that special? Oh
it's so liberating. Yeah, it really is. It's like, oh no,
(29:40):
I'm just like I there's so many of us and
I'm one of them. Yeah. It's so powerful, it really is.
It really is. You can just lose that a tonal
uniqueness and yeah, yeah, I find it very freeing. Yeah.
I want to ask you about voices that inspire you,
because you're not the first critic of yoga and wellness
(30:04):
in the US and in the West, but you're one
of the voices that is breaking through. And I want
to know who the voices are that inspire you and
the work that you're doing. I mean, the first person
that comes to mind is James Baldwin. I think of him,
and you know, a queer man, a queer black man
(30:26):
in America when that it wasn't safe to be either
speaking so eloquently about everything from race too to love
and and and that that kind of like ability to
sort of talk about so many different things and the
complexities and the layers of what it means to be human.
(30:48):
That's what I'm constantly seeking, um in myself and in
my own writing. So Baldwin is is such an important
person for me. At Al ad Nan, who just recently passed,
was an ext j ordinary writer and painter Um of
Syrian Lebanese origin, and you know she was openly queer.
(31:08):
Her partners also Syrian. Like it again, like it's it's
sort of finding, you know, these elders that you can
see yourself in all of a sudden, you know, your
own path becomes clear Um and June Jordans, Tony, Tony Morrison,
Audrey Lord, I mean Audrey Lord's work on self care.
(31:32):
Bell Hooks and Audrey Lord were so so important to
me when I was first investigating self care because they
were extraordinary thinkers of their time, but they were thinking
about the radicality of what it means to to love
yourself in a world that can't love you, or refuses
to love you, or or openly doesn't want to show
(31:54):
you love. You know, I think, especially given what's happening
right now in the world in general, it's just it's
painful because there are so many people that are against us.
There's so many people that don't want your, your or
I to thrive because of our gender, because of whatever,
(32:17):
and mainly because of our gender. And to me, it
is extraordinary not only to fight, but to find tenderness
within that, you know, like to me, vulnerability, And I
think it is very much a product of being and
recognizing that I'm a I'm a child sexual abuse survivor,
(32:39):
which saying that is again like really relieving because it
just means that I lay bare everything that you need
to know about me. Every projection that one has of
me then is dolted by that you know. And to me,
that's exciting because I'm not. We all are so complex.
We didn't put each other in little, tiny holes. And
(33:03):
and I turned to writing, and I turned to writers
that were constantly pushing the boundaries and being like, no,
there's so much more here and to find vulnerability and
tenderness and love and beauty. John O'Donohue, who's a Celtic
priest and poet, wrote this a lot, and I think
about it so much about finding beauty in dark times
(33:27):
in your mind, so you can return to that beautiful thing,
whatever it is, whether it's a sunset or the see
the sound of the ocean, whatever it is, finding those things,
going to that and being able to just be present
with yourself. We all need a home inside of us
that we can go to to nut, draw ourselves, replenish, rest, yeah,
(33:53):
and then go back out into the world. Yeah. We
need that. Thank you so much for your time. Thank
you such a treat. Thank you, and I'm so excited
to see what your book, Who Is Wellness For does
in the world. I know it's going to have an
(34:14):
incredible impact. Thank you. That means so much to me
coming from you, this whole conversation. Thank you for having
me and thank you for seeing me. Thank you for
letting yourself be seen. Thanks for listening to VS Voices.
My thanks to today's guest, Very Hiroshin. If you love
our show, please comment, like, and subscribe to wherever you
(34:37):
listen to your favorite podcasts, and as always, please follow
me Aman Decadeney on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. Thank you
for listening. VS Voices is part of Victoria's Secrets ongoing
commitment to become one of the world's leading advocates for
women to deliver on that promise. Together, we have created
(34:57):
the Voices platform to do just that. Flify the voices,
represent the views and learn from the unique perspectives of
women from every background. Sharing stories bring us closer together,
and it's how we move forward. Open up dialogue and
raise the game.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com