She’s known as ‘The Oracle’ and you’ll soon hear why. Bethann Hardison’s trailblazing career spans several decades. She started out in the garment industry, had a wildly successful modeling career , became a power agent, and a forever champion of diversity to this day. When you think of American fashion history, it starts here with Bethann. At the age of 79, she’s showing no signs of slowing down. Whether dancing to BTS or jetting off to the opera,, she continues to live a full, rich lifestyle. “As life goes on, I'm truly taken with me, myself. I look at things and go ‘Wow!’” she says, giving us all an example for aging joyfully. In this conversation, she shares her early days as a correctional officer in a state prison, her friendship with the late artist Nick Kamen, and her brilliance at breaking the mold. “I had to bring more people of color onto the arena, and having a white model agency, I'd have more power to do it”.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
My guest today is a living legend, and her name
is Bethan Hartison. Bethan has had many lives in the
fashion world. She was one of America's first high profile
black runway models in the nineteen seventies and four, she
created her own model agency that represented all ethnicities, but
focused on more people of color and bringing them into
(00:20):
the fashion world. Her tireless work has resulted in much
more inclusivity and fashion, and she's credited with mentoring the
careers of people like Naomi Campbell, Tyson, Beckford Imman, and Rihanna.
These days, Bethan remains very busy consulting for fashion institutions
like Gucci and the Council of Fashion Designers of America.
(00:42):
You can also find her working on her autobiography, which
I know I'm going to order as soon as I can.
I got to speak to Bethan about how she took
advantage of every opportunity that came her way, why she
loves Harry Styles and BTS, as well as her thoughts
on who deserves to be called a supermodel. Bethan, I'm
so happy that we're speaking because even though we've known
(01:05):
each other for a very long time, interviewing you has
given me an opportunity to research you, and I mean
I've always been super impressed by you and adored you,
and just reading everything that you've done in your life,
I was, I was like, I knew, there's a reason
(01:27):
I love this woman. So it's been a real treat
because we know each other personally through many mutual friends
and and I knew a bit about you. Of course,
who could know you and not know a bit about you,
(01:48):
But it was certainly so interesting to read just how
many years you've been advocating and your own personal experience,
starting with being one of the first African American models
to appear in magazines like Allure and hop His Bizarre
(02:11):
and Vogue. Let me let me just clarify something. A
man that they do have that written in places. That's
not true, though, okayanifying you know, I see that sometimes
and I see people right then and I go and
I always have to prevent it. But that's not true.
I was a runway model, and I was, I guess
(02:32):
considered successful because I was a great image for the
runway and for the designers I worked with. And I
always like to clarify it because it's very easy they've been. Well,
it wasn't easy to be a print girl, but it's
very easy to give all that energy to that. The
truth of it is, I never want to let go
of the fact that runway models we're queen back in
(02:52):
the day, and that's they're very important, you know. And
so I stay in my lane, even though when people
photogra asked me now they say, oh, you're such a
supermodeling please That worried was only event for four people.
Who were those four It was Christie, Linda, Naomi and
(03:13):
Cindy and and and the trifector was really Sindy, Linda
and Naomi. And then eventually you know, um, but there
are other girls. Those girls eventually became like but the
ones the name that was dropped on those few were
because of that moment in time. But those three girls
were their names became anonymous with pop culture. People started,
(03:36):
you know, people started knowing who they were. People who
had nothing to do with fashion would know who those
girls were, and back in the day that didn't exist
with models. Yeah, those are the girls that I grew
up when I was like a teenager, those were the
girls that I grew up knowing about and knowing their
names and you know those were they. Oh, those were
(03:58):
the household names. If you thought of like models, supermodel,
those were the girls you thought of. Yeah, and that's
because the name was given. The name was they, That
Moniker was given to them because they became super. As
I was being interview the other day, I was saying,
they super superseded the other models and that's what made
(04:20):
them stand out. And so that's what gave him that name,
because it was it was a moment in time. These
girls came along and that happened. They were like like
our fashion rock stars. They still kind of are, and
in a way, yes, because they have legacy. Yeah, legacy
is so important. Well, let's talk a little bit about
your legacy. So at the time when though we're talking
(04:44):
about the kind of first supermodels, really at that time
that was the kind of mid eighties early nineties, did
you have your own fashion agency at that point, I
had a model agency. M I had a model agency
that I started in and the model agency I did
(05:05):
for thirteen years and to and then I stepped away
from that, kept my office down in Tribeca. I moved
into that office in half the agency UM and then uh, yeah,
you were probably the first person to represent models I
(05:27):
think that were diverse. I'm assuming yeah that that that really? Um,
I would say with more consciousness, like you know, not
really being conscious, but naturally conscious. Because I was a
woman of color, My agency was truly a white agency. Yes,
predominantly white kids, but the the ones who started the
agency with me were actually if if you had to count,
(05:51):
they were more diverse than they were white. But when
when I continued the lane, I knew I had to
compete with my white counter upon art. So I was
more important to make sure that I didn't fall into
a hole, and I competed with exactly what I knew
I could do. So, yes, there was a diversity that
(06:11):
existed more with me because I started with you know,
uh Asian girls and Asian Latina girls. And Nick came
along with me at that time, and he started the
agency with Nick. Nick came in it, and um, I
had you know, Nick started the agency with you. Yeah, okay,
(06:33):
just for our listeners to know Nick came in take
a moment, huh, Yeah, it's a hard one, you know,
it's not that was that that was really the hardest.
I'm someone who was raised to believe in death and
it stuff. But Nix getting sick. You know, I was
through the whole journey because he was he sort of
(06:54):
every time I go to London, he'd always see me.
And he was supposed to come see me one afternoon,
right before I was leaving, and he he didn't come,
and I didn't understand what happened. He called me from
the hospital. That was the first time. He didn't know
what was wrong. He just said, I'm really feeling bad
and and I just had to come to the hospital.
They want to keep me. So I said, okay, I'll
try to get back before I leave tomorrow. Tell me
(07:15):
the name of the hospital, blah blah blah. But then
he called me back and he said, listen, don't come
and they just try to do some tests, and then
the journey started. Yeah, oh, beth Fan. So just for
our listeners to know, Um, Nick came in. It was hard.
It's it's hard for me to say was because I
want to say is. But Nick came in was beth
(07:39):
Fan's very dear friend and my boyfriend for many years
and my dear beloved friend and he died recently from cancer.
And um, yeah, I haven't really spoken about this. So, yeah,
it's a hard one. Yeah, that's just funny. People passed
and you know they're very close to you. But you know,
(08:02):
this one was really hard for me. And everyone who
knew him knew me. I knew it would be hed
come back to considered agencies that he had met and
m He had met me at Click, but then he
found that I had left and I was starting an
agency on my own and he came to found me
in when I had nothing in it. Yet here's this
(08:26):
crazy black woman talking about she's gonna do a model agency.
I'm thinking everybody's thinking up probably doing a dinner ill repute,
you know, prostitution ring or something. And he came and
he talked to me and I and I wanted him
so badly. I mean, who was more beautiful than Nick
(08:47):
came in, I tell you, and he was so cool,
you know he was. He said, you think you can
do this? I said, I think I can. I had
no experience other than you know, being a little bit
of bringing a book at this agency in it, but
but it made me do this agency and so here
I was doing it and I had six girls in him. Wow,
(09:07):
I had no idea Beck fan. Yeah, it's a reveal. No, yeah,
it is. He really trusted me. He said okay, he said, okay,
we're gonna do this. I said, oh god, you really
really he said, yes, let's do it. And you know,
it was just a great journey because I wind up
doing well. You know. You know, Nick was a beautiful
(09:30):
mix of races and had his own, you know, experiences
with not fitting in places and being judged and being
excluded because of his beautiful mix of races. So I
think he always was drawn to people who also understood
(09:51):
and advocated. You know, you were such you were and
are such a big advocator for so many people in
the fashion industry, just to start with, yeah, yeah, we
had a good time and that and the ability to
be able to do so and you know, starting out
at that very moment. Yeah, you know, I guess it
(10:13):
was I guess it was just me for who I
was and who I was meant to what I was
meant to do. And sometimes it's just that it's your
journey and someone is meant to be on it, and
you meet people for a reason, um and oftentimes you know,
to bring him into the state was really wonderful. But
he was having such a career in London. Um so
(10:34):
we we built off each other in many good ways,
you know. So, yes, I have had a great influence
of people who were not even with me. You know,
I do recognize that, and many others do too. I
mean I didn't have to have a being um my
model per se uh to give influence or to be
there Mama Sita or there their person that would mentor
(10:58):
or die. Yeah, that was something that seemed to come
natural and was part of my existence. Well, I would
say that were there any other black women running agencies
when you started exactly exactly who else was that to
go to? But you yeah, that's exactly right. And but
(11:18):
many people, Um, I had a lot of you know
people who sometimes when I start doing time really well
in some way, there'd be a lot of white kids
who were parents, were bringing their children or girls who
were wanting to come to me, and if they went
to see the white agency first that was known, they
(11:40):
would say oh because everyone knew I had a great reputation,
So everybody would say good things about me and say, oh, yeah,
she's love because they didn't want to say anything bad.
They couldn't. But then they would say, you know, but
you know she really represent mostly black Black channel, and
which was not true. I made sure I didn't represent
mostly collection I was. You wouldn't have been able to
(12:03):
maintain a business exactly at that point. I really would
not have And and I knew exactly what I had
to do. I had to bring more people of color,
whether it be Asian, Latin or Black, onto the arena,
and having a white model agency, I'd have more power
doing it. So smart, so smart, Bethan, You have been
(12:25):
pioneering from an early age. What do you think it
is within you that, from so early on in your
life was sparked this desire to create positive change. That's
interesting question because you asked that, and you know there's
(12:46):
questions like that are asked from time to time. And
I promise you I think that certain people just come
to Earth to do certain things, because surely, um I
didn't you know in school, you you're a person who
basically could always you know, um be the person who
sort of made sure everybody got along or you know,
uh you I was a leader. You know, I was
(13:09):
in a gang. I was, I did it all, you know,
I ran track, I was a well known tap dance.
In childhood, I did everything. When I go into high school,
I became I decided to go to a school that
was beyond me in all white school. You also you
also the first black cheerleader in your school. Oh yeah, yeah.
(13:30):
I went out with chair with cheerleading and determined, determined
to get to that squad. And I got down to
the last five and they just I guess I was
meant to get on because I think it was yeah,
this a little girl girl, but that I was trying
out with. She got on too, because we were down
to last five, a little girl who became like my
(13:51):
best friend. There, a little Jewish girl. And I promise
you we were so thrilled when they said yesterday because
I our cheerleading scort went to the basketball games and
Madison square guard because we had a great basketball team.
So you know, we got a chance to get on
the floor and really perform. Well, it wasn't just limited
you know, to our little gymnazing no that. Yeah, there
(14:12):
are a lot of accomplishments I had in high school.
And I was supposed to go to the performing arts
high school and got into dramas. But when I saw
this guy come to our school in Beefers Stubends and
Junior High School thirty five and talk about this new school.
I right away to went home and told my mother.
I said, I'm gonna go to this other school. She said,
but you didn't. You have to audition whatever the school,
(14:35):
aren't you? I said? She was so excited, and I said,
well I was. But something about this other place meant
I should go there. And going to that high school
it was the best decision I made because I you know,
I just I lead. I became a leader of people
to school classes where they left me for things that
it was just great. So you're a natural born leader
(14:58):
from when you were a kid from I from a
ton that now that I'm writing and talking about my life,
I recognize that. You know, you start thinking, you start
saying from seventh grade to eight, you know, from seven
year old eight years old, the things that you did
and and how you were protected by some of the boys,
some people took care of you, how things were and yeah, no,
(15:19):
I saw that too, And I recognized that, you know,
growing up in it, you don't see any of it.
As you asked the question, did you ever realized that
you were going to be this person that would be
in such an influence in any kind of way, or
stand up and try to make a difference. But as
you look back, you can start to say, oh, yeah,
but look what you did here, Look what you know,
(15:39):
like that you have consistently moved the needle for people
of color since you started having your career. But something
that I learned about you which I did not know,
is that you also worked in the prison. Has anyone
(15:59):
ever talked to you about that? Yeah, I don't like
to talk about it, so you can talk about it
because you alreadys said it, But I gotta you gotta
get that too. I don't know why I don't like
to talk about it, but now I guess I have.
It's okay in some way, I do. I always I did.
I worked in a m I wanted to be a
lawyer when I was a kid, uh teenager, and my
(16:24):
father used to say all the time, you know, you
should really be a lawyer every time i'd argue a point.
And I was on a great debating team in school,
so I thought so. But I saw this film called
Snake Pit once, uh, very intense film black and white
about these women in prison, and it sort of got
me thinking, Okay, there's a way you can help people.
(16:47):
And I had a boyfriend when I was about nineteen
twenty years old, nineteen eight, nineteen years old, and his
mother worked as a correction officer, and I talked to
her once about out it because I thought, maybe that's
how because I couldn't I wasn't gonna go to law school,
maybe that's how I could help people. I was thinking
I was gonna be helping people. Oh my god. And
(17:10):
I took the test for the corrections because she gave
me the background story. She told me what I should do.
But I was twenty when I could take it, and
you had to be twenty one to be appointed. So
I I took it and I passed, and then they
told me they would appoint me when I was twenty one,
(17:31):
and they did so I was like the youngest officer
and it was for the State of New York and
it was at Beppett Hills and UH correction set facilities.
But because I was also young, they put me into
the um um, the place where the youngest prisoners m juveniles.
And what was that experience like for you? Oh? Was
(17:54):
scary a lot ways because when I first went in.
You know, first the my lieutenant kept me in her
office and she let me she teached me things around
and she kept me around as long as she could,
I think for about maybe about three weeks, and she
would teach me how to arrange, give me little odd
jobs to do do, like arranging flowers, doing different things. And
(18:17):
eventually they had to put me into what it's called
like a cottage. And it's uh, the reformatory is down
the down the road from the women's stay prison, um,
and so the reformatory is where the cottages were of
the younger offenders or less offenders. And going in the
(18:38):
first day I had to go, boy, oh boy, I
was nervous as hell. All women, all women, yeah, all women,
and they were you know, they just ignored me. I
was younger than most of them. Um. And also I
had went in there with a tough, you know, facade
base and attitude and it worked pretty deep silly, but
(19:00):
they also could ignore me because they didn't trust that
I would go and do anything. And you were there
for two years, right, yeah, I went. I went there
for the first year I was there, and then eventually, um,
they start to make rumors about me, some of the inmates,
they're gonna get me transferred and stuff. So my flutendant
(19:21):
took the opportunity of putting me in the prison but
at night, so I wouldn't come in contact with the
prison female prison dmates. She put me there at night,
So that was the That was worse than being with
the young girls who were like But at a certain
point I had a handle on the um well. I
was wanting to know that. When I was fifteen, I
(19:43):
did some time in juvie and I really would have
been so happy to have gotten you as my cor
We could have met a bit sooner. It's because I'm
telling you that the screaming at night when the women
are sleeping and remembering the murdering who they didn't all
that listening to that at night, and you can't sleep
and you gotta be up all night, you know. But
(20:05):
they the girls were good in the end. It's just
that some of them wanted to give me a hard time,
and eventually one got a crush from me, and one
and a couple of them used that to get me
out because I would make sure if they did anything wrong,
I would punish them, have them punished. Yeah, it's interesting.
It really is, and I'm curious how you went from
working in a prison to working in the fashion industry.
(20:26):
How did that jump happen? Yeah, that was just a
that That's why I really am going to have that
taken out of mine. I think I mentioned in my book.
Maybe I mentioned it half to I guess I did
when I'm writing, but I like to take it off
because it makes no sense, but I think it does
best then I think it's really like what honestly I found.
I find that so interesting because it appears to be
(20:49):
so random. But what you just said was you were
interested in helping people. Yeah, and so you didn't know
what avenue, You didn't know what that was gonna look like,
and the only thing that was present it in front
of you was a correctional officer, so you were like,
maybe I could help people that way. Ultimately, your desire
to help people has been the through line of your
(21:09):
entire career, starting with being a correctional officer. So to me,
it makes a lot of sense. Well in in the
essence of it. I find when I first noticed that
it was and my on my website or something somebody
told me, I was like, where'd you hear this. They said,
it's on your website. I said it is. And then
I thought, okay, well going back to UM with your
(21:31):
your your statement. Oh yeah, I had that jumped from
one to the other. Yes, it wasn't like a jumping.
First of all, I come out and I come from
the garment business. And I like to clarify that always,
because you know, the fashion industry, this world that everyone
is so um under its umbrella, to the point that
(21:52):
if you saw, as I always say, if you saw
a button on the shirt, people say they're in a
fashion industry. Yeah, right, you know, and for me it's uh,
the garment and three is such a wonderful place to
have come from UM and to learn from. And I
learned so much. I was just looking for a job
after I got out of UM, out of Beffet Hills
and all. I just you know, once again, you go
(22:14):
back to the New York Times, the three unemployment sectional,
see where's the bail And I saw something that was
in It was a button factory and uh, and it
was in the garment district. And I went, I got
and I got an appointment, and I applied for it.
And that was the beginning of me being in the
industry of apparel. Mm hmm. Wow, what a journey you've had,
(22:38):
and and you're still working. You're still working. I mean,
it's incredible to me that that you've had such a phenomenon,
you still have such a vibrant career. How many years
have you been working now? You know, it's interesting to
say this, Amanda, because of my found I'm so happy
(23:00):
you find my questions interesting. I really am If you
didn't know, I would be feeling like I was letting
you down here. No, it really is because my driver
who picked me up today, he had to cease from
um India Karachi. In fact, I Thinkingchia. And he's known
(23:22):
me for a little while, he said, he said that
conversation that you basically happened with me. How he is
and his wife are so impressed with me because of
the fact that I live alone and I go into
this mountain, this, this this farest and live in his
house by myself. He's always so concerned for me. He
doesn't see me with family around me. He doesn't see
(23:43):
I have a mate per se, and he just wonders
at this age. You just told me he didn't pick
me up, but I just went two Italy for four days,
came back, went to a galah, went to Harry Styles
and show the next night, then back and then and
then one night Harry Styles, one night Harry Style. Then
(24:05):
flew down to Detroit to go to the Malcolm X
Opera and then come back. He said, who does that?
Someone who doesn't have a partner and a bunch of kids.
It has the truth, that's the truth. It helps. So
I think it really is. It is something that has
has been a quite an interesting thing to me too.
(24:26):
I mean, you know, you recognize your time on earth
and you you're happy as my doctors all are that. God,
You're just something we need to clone because you're just
health well. You know, there are things that begin to
ache and your body you know just start to you know, compress,
and you start to you know, find things that are
just so not as nimble or not as quick. I
(24:49):
I mentally, I really do do this. I I followed,
I'm a big fan of BTS, the K pop fan,
and I, oh my god, I'm learning so much about you. Yeah,
it's a very important thing too to be inspired by.
This is an important be fan fact that we need to.
We need to, we need to have this on your website.
(25:11):
This especial you need because it helps me, because because
they are great dancers, and because of it, I just
watched just because I can do all the steps in
my head. I'm a dancer and I and then you
try to do some of them. You can do some
of them, you know if you get up, because I
(25:31):
can always still move and dance. So I think the
important thing really is like how you you live your
life and how important you make your life to you,
you know, um and not. I'm lucky that I'm not
much of a follower. I don't I have you know,
I don't go down the yellow bick road so easily.
I you created your own path. Yeah, I mean, if
(25:55):
I am truly novelly, I mean, I know you're a
travel I'm just gonna say it, Bethan. You are an
O G trailblazer and you have brought so many people
along with you. And that is your compassionate heart that
(26:16):
has wanted so many people who have been on the
sidelines to be able to succeed. It's interesting, good point
the point to Yeah, it's a good point. I mean,
you do care very much about many other people. And
then it's something you have to have a great deal
of natural compassion uh for others. And I think it's
(26:38):
and and that be as as JUDGMENTO. I think judge
being judgmental comes when you're older. And surely I find
that I could live a lot with less And I
think that comes from deciding what what you're needing what
you don't. And I do think it's important too. I'm
lucky enough to live a more useful mind, uh, and
(27:02):
I think that has a lot to do with helps
me a lot to be who I am too. And
most of the people that are I'm surrounded by are
much more younger than I because that's just the way
it's always been. I mean, I am a mama seated
too many people and you and and it really just
comes that way. And there are not many people like
I mean, how many people am I going to get
(27:23):
to go see Harry stuff with me? My? Yeah? You know,
I think you probably had quite a few people who
would have done that though, you know, well I'm having
the tickets. If you were holding the tickets for Harry
Styles one night only, I can think of I bet
you had a few people who wanted that ticket. Well,
you know, what's more important. What I'm trying to do,
(27:45):
I'm working on right now is to try to get
management to please come come back to the point that
he needs to be seen in a small venue. So
I've been talking about this for a while now, So
now I haven't gotten a chance to write back. I
can tell them, you know how much I enjoy it,
can do that, But they know I'm coming at them again.
As Harry, you say to me, just keep I tell
(28:07):
him myself, I'm poking. I'm poking. Yet from poking him,
he said, keep poking, keep poking, because I really think
that they be more more and more people a little
bit more serious would appreciate hearing what I know about
him before, you know, before going into a in a
stadium and being But they'll screaming fans. That's not the
(28:27):
money maker, you know, it's not the other One's not
the money making. But they're making so much money they
could just slice like a David Bowie would do. They
could slice in a moment or two and small venues
because they have nothing to lose. You know, he's gonna
be fifteen nights at at Madison Square. Oh, I know.
I heard that the other day my husband The Strokes
(28:48):
did one night that and we were talking about how
Harry Styles was doing fifteen and how just I picked
That was the second you mentioned David Bowie I interviewed
and on and you. Yes, we're part of that interview too, Yes,
it was. It was. It was a beautiful honor to
(29:11):
be able to interview her because what an incredibly iconic
woman who also shared such immense, lasting and deep love
with her husband David Bowie. And it was such a
beautiful honor for me to be able to interview you
(29:31):
both together. That was years ago. That's right, that was
the first I think that's the first interview she talked
about the person, if you she had done since then, Yeah, yeah,
I remember very well, since we were going to be
with either before going to Paris up. Yeah, no, that's
very true. Yeah, he was very dear to me too.
Um um. But they're they're there, That's what I'm saying.
(29:55):
Someone like he, I mean, you get that, you get
an opportunity like it's rare that any I don't know
if any body who's ever done fifteen nights at Madison
Square Garden, and I honestly I know Billy Joel will
do five or maybe six, maybe ten. I'm fifteen. I
mean that's that's that's that's that's that you think you
(30:15):
can pull that and that's twenty two seats or something. Yeah,
it's huge, and I've already done. I've already done October Harry.
I've done now this one, and going back, I'll be
just going to just see um, you know, I want
to see death Hines. I do want to see him open. Yeah,
he's great, and this is a big thing for him
because he too doesn't do this, so it's gonna be
(30:38):
interesting for them to see. But at some point he
needs to he needs to really let people know. People said, what,
you really love him that much because they haven't heard
what I've heard. They don't listen to him. So I
I discovered him when I could just hear him. I
love that. So your your point of view and your
perspective at this stage of the aim is so on point.
(31:01):
You're like an oracle or something. You really are. I
have to remember that. That's mythical has called me for
the last fifteen years. Well I'm late. They are audy
on that, but I I just got to remember this
because when I'm when I'm really struggling with making a
decision that I need to be coming to you. So
(31:23):
one of the things that I wanted to your attention
to is that we're living in a time where there
is more representation of diverse perspectives and points of view
that we've ever seen. Yes, and your work has been
(31:43):
a large part of that shift and continues to be.
But what would you say to someone who is from
a background that would not usually allow them entry into
the world how it's been, which is a very exclusive world.
What would you say to someone who is maybe looking
(32:05):
at the current climate and saying, maybe there's a space
for me here finally? Oh wow, Yeah, you know, the
truth be a toll depending on what the industry you're
talking about. You know, everything is a go. I mean
you always have to think everything is to go. That
the important thing of it is it's important to have
something to give, and it's it's really important to really
(32:28):
work hard at something and uh not everyone's going to
get through the I always call it the tunnel. Uh.
Many people used to say to me when they used
to see me, especially once I started my model agency
and I was more visible. They sell me with dreads
long present and I would go to schools to talk
and I used to do this this this teaching it,
(32:48):
uh parsons and they say to me, wow, ms, wow,
that's interesting. You black woman with dreads too. Boy, how
did you get into that industry? Well, first of all,
I work in the fashion industry. It's not it's not
like going into a corporate situation. It's uh, it's a
little different. It's a little bit more lenient. And even
then you think about it, people sometimes our industry erasist,
(33:11):
the industry of fashion erasist things. You don't notice it,
but you know, there was a time in this uh
this the sixties and seventies where things start to change,
even in that industry where because New York and fashion
and moment in time where things were really meant to
change because of the movement prior to that, you know,
(33:33):
when black was beautiful, that that that there was a
say before black lives matter, and so they were naturally
pushed from the panthers and all to just make sure
that naturally whites began to embrace a lot of black culture.
So there was a lot of that then, and that's
why you could see so many There was a model
(33:54):
agency called Black beauty. A lot of actors and actors
came out of that that you would see like the
guy who who's a leading and UH and staff was
he was in that agency, he was a model. So
there are a lot of that that that it existed
and then something changes, waves moved in this industry. Well
(34:17):
in every area. I think that you can feel confident
that right now things have opened up a lot. I
still say to everyone, specially designers and designers, please, you know,
recognize the fact that no one's gonna last forever. Do
your best to be the one that does m H.
Because people need to really, especially in now the industry
(34:37):
where there are people call to design apparel or houseware
or wherever. But my my neighborhood is apparel. So when
you're in that area, you have to know that it's
But so it's limiting and it's a hard business to
be in, and it's a tough business to be in,
but you have to really learn the business. Really, try
(35:00):
to find a decent team and if not, try to
find more importantly to work for someone else. First, don't
put it all on yourself, right, learn, learn the skills
and don't and it's okay too it's okay to start
small and not feel like you have to start, you know,
(35:21):
at a certain success level, because nobody does that. Don't
no one like wakes up over and has overnight success. Really,
there's everybody's got a journey of how they got to
where they are today exactly. And oftentimes we think that,
you know, because so much generations now see someone who's
youngish looking successful, they think they can be you tomorrow.
(35:44):
They don't think. They don't want to do what is
called a decent apprenticeship or internship. They don't want to.
They just want to get there. And truth be a told,
it's very rare beings that really can jump start themselves
off because they're so talented and what they have at
that moment is needed by an industry, whatever industry. I
(36:06):
don't be gaming, it could be anything. Well, gaming is
much more interesting, but I mean, gave me gaming, you
you know how to do that, You've pretty much got
a job. But the end of the day, it's just
more important to really have your skills. And I think
going to work for another whether you be a photographer
a designer, is so good. To learn the craft underneath
(36:26):
someone else and build and then you can go off
and spend and people will take it even more seriously. Yeah,
that's very true. While let me let me ask you
about the voices who inspired you in your life. Who
are the most significant if you could, I'm sure there's
so many, But if you could pick a couple of
(36:48):
people who really were role models for you that you
even knew or didn't know, who would those people be?
Mm hm wow. I don't really have role models. I
always try to think about that. I have people along
the way that really taught me and encouraged me, But
(37:11):
I never call role models. I mean, there are people
in the garment business. It wasn't for those people, I
wouldn't be Beth. And I think today I wouldn't have
had the opportunities I had. I wouldn't have had the
opportunity to learn or that they took time to teach me.
And I was at low end dresses and junior dresses
and button factories and things like that until I went
(37:33):
started to get out and be with like a designer
like Willie Smith and then Stephen Burrows and on and on.
But I don't. I mean, there are people who I
do who really took me under the wing or educated
me or gave me guidance. Someone say, but gave me guidance,
I don't. I don't. You know, even my father and
my mother, I don't consider them role models because nothing
(37:56):
that I do, I don't know anyone else is done.
Mm hmm. And I don't get I get all the
the wisdom from between my dad, my mother, and my grandmother.
You know, uh, the two Jewish women I worked for,
the the little Jewish woman that ran the money gut
market company. I mean, I can name those people and say,
(38:19):
those are the people who really gave me a foundation,
or you know, uh Henry had cab at cabin button company,
who believed in me and took a chance. Those people, Yes,
but I I look at them as as pillars of
strength that gave me a start and believe in me
enough to educate me about the most the smallest things
(38:40):
that you would think wouldn't mean anything to a lot
of kids today, but meant everything to become someone did. Now,
that's the thing about being a trailblazer. There is no
path that has been created for you. You have to
create your own. So I'm not surprised to hear you
say that I also have not had role model is
particularly I've had many people that have helped me and
(39:02):
guided me along the way, but I never had role
models because when I started out hosting live late night
television at age fifteen, nobody else looked like me. It
was my age was doing it. So I was like,
fuck it, I guess I'll create the path for this one.
As you say that, it's very funny because but me too, like,
(39:24):
you know, being someone who was a woman of color,
primarily having a model agency that you know, you know,
it's you're you're, you're, you're competing against your white counterparts.
I don't have anyone I could go to and ask
how did you do this or how did you do that?
Even as a model agen because what I was doing
(39:45):
was so going to be so different, and I couldn't.
I couldn't go to Eileen Ford or you're the only
person who really really in that industry, I would say,
really had my back with Johnny casta Blanca, really that
he was If anybody has to say, everybody, if they
hear this, will say, oh, she's leaving me out. Well,
(40:06):
in this case, I'm telling the truth. I you know, yes,
I worked at an agency. Yeah, but then when I left,
they try to bury me. Yeah, but Johnny always had
my back, I mean as a He said, how dare
you go off and start an agency? Where's that place?
I said, A north Moore. He had never heard of it.
I said, I know, I'm trying to go someplace. He said,
(40:27):
what are you doing? Why don't you tell me you're
interested in this? Whatn't you come work for me? You're
not give you a job? And I said, I'm not
looking for a job. I gotta do this. He said,
you really got to do it on your own. I
said yeah. He said okay, and he had my back. Wow.
I love to hear that story because I've heard a
lot of stories about what a misogynist he was, so
it makes not at all happy to hear this. No,
(40:49):
I don't believe that's true at all. I've never felt
that way about Johnny. I mean, Johnny was an attractive
guy and he didn't he he was, you know, and
people were and he was charming, you know, but he
really he did. He said, listen, there was a they
had a whole thing with model agencies where they had
to like a foundation and you had to join. And
he told me, no, you don't join. He said, you
(41:11):
don't need to join. He said, anything you need to know,
I'll call you in type and he did that way.
I was nobody for me to join, and I'm so
glad I didn't because when these women that wanted to
sue all the agencies, I wasn't a part of it.
He had my back all the time, he I mean.
And that's why it's crazy that Gerard Eileen was. I mean,
(41:32):
I knew him. He too was a supporter, but not
like Johnny. Is it possible that someone could be a
support to you and also behave badly with women? Yeah,
as well, because that's very possible. Yeah, it happens. It
does happen. It happens with me because as Eman always says,
(41:53):
would you always take up with the boys, because when
girls and guys fight, No, you, I always try to
see the eyes side of it. Oh, I try to
help the girl understand how she has to understand that.
You know, come on, there's a lot of limitations on
that side. You know, she gotta know what to deal
with with you. She always says, you always seem to
have an understanding, But no, I do. I I do it.
(42:13):
I think sometimes I have people say, well, a lot
of people respect that you're they were afraid of you,
or they wouldn't dare. Yeah. Yeah, I guess it may
be a combination of those many things. But I know
a few. And there's one person I'm crazy about and
I don't care what he does, how he does it.
I'm gonna help him. And if I got to sit
down and have him, because I know he's losing his
(42:35):
his he's losing everything because of actions. Yeah, those are
some of the more difficult and nuanced conversations that I
too have been having with true some guy friends of
mine who um are really navigating the impact of uh
(42:59):
the me too movement well public stories that are not
necessarily quantified, and I say that, um, it's very dangerous,
very very dangerous. And on the on the other side,
if it's not handled correctly, they'll be a lot of
women who are afraid to speak up. So I I
live in hope that women will understand the significance of
(43:24):
this moment in time where there's more of a flaw
for us, and to really respect that and not use
it to you know, because we need to keep it.
We do, we really really do. It's very true. So Bethan,
What are you? What is exciting you now? What are
(43:45):
you focused on? What inspires you? Where do you think
we have more work to be done? And where where
is the space that you want to be doing more work? Okay,
there are individuals that excite me now because I get
inspired by silly things. Who are some of those people? Well,
(44:06):
Harry Styles, Okay, don't embarrass me, but Harry Styles, ttf
Aurora James. There there's some kids out there that are
doing things that you know, they're down my neighborhood. There,
my neighborhood. She's got the fifteent pledge, but she inspired
me before she had the pledge. I mean, I like,
(44:27):
there's there are people who really do some interesting work
and they care about things and they're looking to make
a difference. And I like that. Um. I like. I
love the fact that I have created certain places for
me to be and in those places that I've created
for myself to be without even thinking I was doing that.
(44:49):
I love the community that is there that gives me
support and inspires me. I love the places that I
live because they're inspiring. Um. And I I love and
I'm as life goes on, I am truly sort of
taken with me too. Uh not me too, me too,
(45:11):
but me myself. Yeah, yeah, I am. I. I sort
of look at things that go wow and I And
the only thing I I'm sort of disappointing is that
I start to be not as strong in my body.
That I don't like. Not not that the physical self,
not the internal organs or anything. Um that I the
(45:35):
only thing I'm glad about. I still can make movement,
I can still dance, do things like that. But I
think it's it's important. Uh, there are people who you
really appreciate, you know, in many ways your friends, like
my long term relationship with him and is very important
even when we barely ever agree on Holly anything. Sometimes
when we're talking, which is David used to think it
(45:56):
was the funniest thing. And then you love each other
and you can you can love each other and have
different perspectives and that's okay, and that's just true. And
this is true. And she she cares very much about
my time on earth. When I leave the search. She
wants to make sure all my ducks in her road,
things that who's taken care of that, you know, because
we're very real. Were both raised as Muslim kids, you know,
(46:18):
so were beautiful. She's helping you prepare for when it's
your time to pass on. That's right, and we're we're
straight up about that. So it's not like people beautiful. Yeah,
I think that the most important things right now for
me is really uh lightning loads. I like the purage,
get rid of clothes, get rid of things in the house,
and you've got too much stuff, and I think it's
(46:41):
important and I just I just love I like the
respect that I'm giving mm hmm. And when it's not,
I feel it's like crazy. You know what, Bethan, It
has been such a treat for me to speak to
you today. I I have immense respect for you and
(47:04):
I just have a lot of love for you, and
being able to speak to you a little bit today
it's such an honor. And I already just look forward
to next time I can hug you and look into
your beautiful face. And you know know that we are
connected well, you know our we do have that, and
(47:29):
we have that for a lot of reasons, as you
and as we basically first started the conversations with our nick,
that's for sure. And uh, I do I want to
see you when I'm out in the West. When you
come east, we need to just break you, break that
moment where we don't and yet we think we will,
(47:51):
and just do. Okay, I will make that commitment. I
will make that commitment happily. And if you do, I'll
get your ticket. You know it, you know it. I
love you, Bethan, Thank you, Thank you so much. You've
been listening to VS Voices. My thanks to today's guest,
Bethan Hortison. If you love our show, please comment, like,
(48:14):
and subscribe to wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts,
and as always, please follow me Amanda Acadeeney on Instagram, Twitter,
and Facebook. Thank you for listening. VS Voices is part
of Victoria's Secrets ongoing commitment to become one of the
world's leading advocates for women. To deliver on that promise. Together,
(48:34):
we have created the Voices platform to do just that.
Amplify the voices, represent the views, and learn from the
unique perspectives of women from every background. Sharing stories bring
us closer together, and it's how we move forward, open
up dialogue, and raise the game
My guest today is a living legend, and her name
is Bethan Hartison. Bethan has had many lives in the
fashion world. She was one of America's first high profile
black runway models in the nineteen seventies and four, she
created her own model agency that represented all ethnicities, but
focused on more people of color and bringing them into
(00:20):
the fashion world. Her tireless work has resulted in much
more inclusivity and fashion, and she's credited with mentoring the
careers of people like Naomi Campbell, Tyson, Beckford Imman, and Rihanna.
These days, Bethan remains very busy consulting for fashion institutions
like Gucci and the Council of Fashion Designers of America.
(00:42):
You can also find her working on her autobiography, which
I know I'm going to order as soon as I can.
I got to speak to Bethan about how she took
advantage of every opportunity that came her way, why she
loves Harry Styles and BTS, as well as her thoughts
on who deserves to be called a supermodel. Bethan, I'm
so happy that we're speaking because even though we've known
(01:05):
each other for a very long time, interviewing you has
given me an opportunity to research you, and I mean
I've always been super impressed by you and adored you,
and just reading everything that you've done in your life,
I was, I was like, I knew, there's a reason
(01:27):
I love this woman. So it's been a real treat
because we know each other personally through many mutual friends
and and I knew a bit about you. Of course,
who could know you and not know a bit about you,
(01:48):
But it was certainly so interesting to read just how
many years you've been advocating and your own personal experience,
starting with being one of the first African American models
to appear in magazines like Allure and hop His Bizarre
(02:11):
and Vogue. Let me let me just clarify something. A
man that they do have that written in places. That's
not true, though, okayanifying you know, I see that sometimes
and I see people right then and I go and
I always have to prevent it. But that's not true.
I was a runway model, and I was, I guess
(02:32):
considered successful because I was a great image for the
runway and for the designers I worked with. And I
always like to clarify it because it's very easy they've been. Well,
it wasn't easy to be a print girl, but it's
very easy to give all that energy to that. The
truth of it is, I never want to let go
of the fact that runway models we're queen back in
(02:52):
the day, and that's they're very important, you know. And
so I stay in my lane, even though when people
photogra asked me now they say, oh, you're such a
supermodeling please That worried was only event for four people.
Who were those four It was Christie, Linda, Naomi and
(03:13):
Cindy and and and the trifector was really Sindy, Linda
and Naomi. And then eventually you know, um, but there
are other girls. Those girls eventually became like but the
ones the name that was dropped on those few were
because of that moment in time. But those three girls
were their names became anonymous with pop culture. People started,
(03:36):
you know, people started knowing who they were. People who
had nothing to do with fashion would know who those
girls were, and back in the day that didn't exist
with models. Yeah, those are the girls that I grew
up when I was like a teenager, those were the
girls that I grew up knowing about and knowing their
names and you know those were they. Oh, those were
(03:58):
the household names. If you thought of like models, supermodel,
those were the girls you thought of. Yeah, and that's
because the name was given. The name was they, That
Moniker was given to them because they became super. As
I was being interview the other day, I was saying,
they super superseded the other models and that's what made
(04:20):
them stand out. And so that's what gave him that name,
because it was it was a moment in time. These
girls came along and that happened. They were like like
our fashion rock stars. They still kind of are, and
in a way, yes, because they have legacy. Yeah, legacy
is so important. Well, let's talk a little bit about
your legacy. So at the time when though we're talking
(04:44):
about the kind of first supermodels, really at that time
that was the kind of mid eighties early nineties, did
you have your own fashion agency at that point, I
had a model agency. M I had a model agency
that I started in and the model agency I did
(05:05):
for thirteen years and to and then I stepped away
from that, kept my office down in Tribeca. I moved
into that office in half the agency UM and then uh, yeah,
you were probably the first person to represent models I
(05:27):
think that were diverse. I'm assuming yeah that that that really? Um,
I would say with more consciousness, like you know, not
really being conscious, but naturally conscious. Because I was a
woman of color, My agency was truly a white agency. Yes,
predominantly white kids, but the the ones who started the
agency with me were actually if if you had to count,
(05:51):
they were more diverse than they were white. But when
when I continued the lane, I knew I had to
compete with my white counter upon art. So I was
more important to make sure that I didn't fall into
a hole, and I competed with exactly what I knew
I could do. So, yes, there was a diversity that
(06:11):
existed more with me because I started with you know,
uh Asian girls and Asian Latina girls. And Nick came
along with me at that time, and he started the
agency with Nick. Nick came in it, and um, I
had you know, Nick started the agency with you. Yeah, okay,
(06:33):
just for our listeners to know Nick came in take
a moment, huh, Yeah, it's a hard one, you know,
it's not that was that that was really the hardest.
I'm someone who was raised to believe in death and
it stuff. But Nix getting sick. You know, I was
through the whole journey because he was he sort of
(06:54):
every time I go to London, he'd always see me.
And he was supposed to come see me one afternoon,
right before I was leaving, and he he didn't come,
and I didn't understand what happened. He called me from
the hospital. That was the first time. He didn't know
what was wrong. He just said, I'm really feeling bad
and and I just had to come to the hospital.
They want to keep me. So I said, okay, I'll
try to get back before I leave tomorrow. Tell me
(07:15):
the name of the hospital, blah blah blah. But then
he called me back and he said, listen, don't come
and they just try to do some tests, and then
the journey started. Yeah, oh, beth Fan. So just for
our listeners to know, Um, Nick came in. It was hard.
It's it's hard for me to say was because I
want to say is. But Nick came in was beth
(07:39):
Fan's very dear friend and my boyfriend for many years
and my dear beloved friend and he died recently from cancer.
And um, yeah, I haven't really spoken about this. So, yeah,
it's a hard one. Yeah, that's just funny. People passed
and you know they're very close to you. But you know,
(08:02):
this one was really hard for me. And everyone who
knew him knew me. I knew it would be hed
come back to considered agencies that he had met and
m He had met me at Click, but then he
found that I had left and I was starting an
agency on my own and he came to found me
in when I had nothing in it. Yet here's this
(08:26):
crazy black woman talking about she's gonna do a model agency.
I'm thinking everybody's thinking up probably doing a dinner ill repute,
you know, prostitution ring or something. And he came and
he talked to me and I and I wanted him
so badly. I mean, who was more beautiful than Nick
(08:47):
came in, I tell you, and he was so cool,
you know he was. He said, you think you can
do this? I said, I think I can. I had
no experience other than you know, being a little bit
of bringing a book at this agency in it, but
but it made me do this agency and so here
I was doing it and I had six girls in him. Wow,
(09:07):
I had no idea Beck fan. Yeah, it's a reveal. No, yeah,
it is. He really trusted me. He said okay, he said, okay,
we're gonna do this. I said, oh god, you really
really he said, yes, let's do it. And you know,
it was just a great journey because I wind up
doing well. You know. You know, Nick was a beautiful
(09:30):
mix of races and had his own, you know, experiences
with not fitting in places and being judged and being
excluded because of his beautiful mix of races. So I
think he always was drawn to people who also understood
(09:51):
and advocated. You know, you were such you were and
are such a big advocator for so many people in
the fashion industry, just to start with, yeah, yeah, we
had a good time and that and the ability to
be able to do so and you know, starting out
at that very moment. Yeah, you know, I guess it
(10:13):
was I guess it was just me for who I
was and who I was meant to what I was
meant to do. And sometimes it's just that it's your
journey and someone is meant to be on it, and
you meet people for a reason, um and oftentimes you know,
to bring him into the state was really wonderful. But
he was having such a career in London. Um so
(10:34):
we we built off each other in many good ways,
you know. So, yes, I have had a great influence
of people who were not even with me. You know,
I do recognize that, and many others do too. I
mean I didn't have to have a being um my
model per se uh to give influence or to be
there Mama Sita or there their person that would mentor
(10:58):
or die. Yeah, that was something that seemed to come
natural and was part of my existence. Well, I would
say that were there any other black women running agencies
when you started exactly exactly who else was that to
go to? But you yeah, that's exactly right. And but
(11:18):
many people, Um, I had a lot of you know
people who sometimes when I start doing time really well
in some way, there'd be a lot of white kids
who were parents, were bringing their children or girls who
were wanting to come to me, and if they went
to see the white agency first that was known, they
(11:40):
would say oh because everyone knew I had a great reputation,
So everybody would say good things about me and say, oh, yeah,
she's love because they didn't want to say anything bad.
They couldn't. But then they would say, you know, but
you know she really represent mostly black Black channel, and
which was not true. I made sure I didn't represent
mostly collection I was. You wouldn't have been able to
(12:03):
maintain a business exactly at that point. I really would
not have And and I knew exactly what I had
to do. I had to bring more people of color,
whether it be Asian, Latin or Black, onto the arena,
and having a white model agency, I'd have more power
doing it. So smart, so smart, Bethan, You have been
(12:25):
pioneering from an early age. What do you think it
is within you that, from so early on in your
life was sparked this desire to create positive change. That's
interesting question because you asked that, and you know there's
(12:46):
questions like that are asked from time to time. And
I promise you I think that certain people just come
to Earth to do certain things, because surely, um I
didn't you know in school, you you're a person who
basically could always you know, um be the person who
sort of made sure everybody got along or you know,
uh you I was a leader. You know, I was
(13:09):
in a gang. I was, I did it all, you know,
I ran track, I was a well known tap dance.
In childhood, I did everything. When I go into high school,
I became I decided to go to a school that
was beyond me in all white school. You also you
also the first black cheerleader in your school. Oh yeah, yeah.
(13:30):
I went out with chair with cheerleading and determined, determined
to get to that squad. And I got down to
the last five and they just I guess I was
meant to get on because I think it was yeah,
this a little girl girl, but that I was trying
out with. She got on too, because we were down
to last five, a little girl who became like my
(13:51):
best friend. There, a little Jewish girl. And I promise
you we were so thrilled when they said yesterday because
I our cheerleading scort went to the basketball games and
Madison square guard because we had a great basketball team.
So you know, we got a chance to get on
the floor and really perform. Well, it wasn't just limited
you know, to our little gymnazing no that. Yeah, there
(14:12):
are a lot of accomplishments I had in high school.
And I was supposed to go to the performing arts
high school and got into dramas. But when I saw
this guy come to our school in Beefers Stubends and
Junior High School thirty five and talk about this new school.
I right away to went home and told my mother.
I said, I'm gonna go to this other school. She said,
but you didn't. You have to audition whatever the school,
(14:35):
aren't you? I said? She was so excited, and I said,
well I was. But something about this other place meant
I should go there. And going to that high school
it was the best decision I made because I you know,
I just I lead. I became a leader of people
to school classes where they left me for things that
it was just great. So you're a natural born leader
(14:58):
from when you were a kid from I from a
ton that now that I'm writing and talking about my life,
I recognize that. You know, you start thinking, you start
saying from seventh grade to eight, you know, from seven
year old eight years old, the things that you did
and and how you were protected by some of the boys,
some people took care of you, how things were and yeah, no,
(15:19):
I saw that too, And I recognized that, you know,
growing up in it, you don't see any of it.
As you asked the question, did you ever realized that
you were going to be this person that would be
in such an influence in any kind of way, or
stand up and try to make a difference. But as
you look back, you can start to say, oh, yeah,
but look what you did here, Look what you know,
(15:39):
like that you have consistently moved the needle for people
of color since you started having your career. But something
that I learned about you which I did not know,
is that you also worked in the prison. Has anyone
(15:59):
ever talked to you about that? Yeah, I don't like
to talk about it, so you can talk about it
because you alreadys said it, But I gotta you gotta
get that too. I don't know why I don't like
to talk about it, but now I guess I have.
It's okay in some way, I do. I always I did.
I worked in a m I wanted to be a
lawyer when I was a kid, uh teenager, and my
(16:24):
father used to say all the time, you know, you
should really be a lawyer every time i'd argue a point.
And I was on a great debating team in school,
so I thought so. But I saw this film called
Snake Pit once, uh, very intense film black and white
about these women in prison, and it sort of got
me thinking, Okay, there's a way you can help people.
(16:47):
And I had a boyfriend when I was about nineteen
twenty years old, nineteen eight, nineteen years old, and his
mother worked as a correction officer, and I talked to
her once about out it because I thought, maybe that's
how because I couldn't I wasn't gonna go to law school,
maybe that's how I could help people. I was thinking
I was gonna be helping people. Oh my god. And
(17:10):
I took the test for the corrections because she gave
me the background story. She told me what I should do.
But I was twenty when I could take it, and
you had to be twenty one to be appointed. So
I I took it and I passed, and then they
told me they would appoint me when I was twenty one,
(17:31):
and they did so I was like the youngest officer
and it was for the State of New York and
it was at Beppett Hills and UH correction set facilities.
But because I was also young, they put me into
the um um, the place where the youngest prisoners m juveniles.
And what was that experience like for you? Oh? Was
(17:54):
scary a lot ways because when I first went in.
You know, first the my lieutenant kept me in her
office and she let me she teached me things around
and she kept me around as long as she could,
I think for about maybe about three weeks, and she
would teach me how to arrange, give me little odd
jobs to do do, like arranging flowers, doing different things. And
(18:17):
eventually they had to put me into what it's called
like a cottage. And it's uh, the reformatory is down
the down the road from the women's stay prison, um,
and so the reformatory is where the cottages were of
the younger offenders or less offenders. And going in the
(18:38):
first day I had to go, boy, oh boy, I
was nervous as hell. All women, all women, yeah, all women,
and they were you know, they just ignored me. I
was younger than most of them. Um. And also I
had went in there with a tough, you know, facade
base and attitude and it worked pretty deep silly, but
(19:00):
they also could ignore me because they didn't trust that
I would go and do anything. And you were there
for two years, right, yeah, I went. I went there
for the first year I was there, and then eventually, um,
they start to make rumors about me, some of the inmates,
they're gonna get me transferred and stuff. So my flutendant
(19:21):
took the opportunity of putting me in the prison but
at night, so I wouldn't come in contact with the
prison female prison dmates. She put me there at night,
So that was the That was worse than being with
the young girls who were like But at a certain
point I had a handle on the um well. I
was wanting to know that. When I was fifteen, I
(19:43):
did some time in juvie and I really would have
been so happy to have gotten you as my cor
We could have met a bit sooner. It's because I'm
telling you that the screaming at night when the women
are sleeping and remembering the murdering who they didn't all
that listening to that at night, and you can't sleep
and you gotta be up all night, you know. But
(20:05):
they the girls were good in the end. It's just
that some of them wanted to give me a hard time,
and eventually one got a crush from me, and one
and a couple of them used that to get me
out because I would make sure if they did anything wrong,
I would punish them, have them punished. Yeah, it's interesting.
It really is, and I'm curious how you went from
working in a prison to working in the fashion industry.
(20:26):
How did that jump happen? Yeah, that was just a
that That's why I really am going to have that
taken out of mine. I think I mentioned in my book.
Maybe I mentioned it half to I guess I did
when I'm writing, but I like to take it off
because it makes no sense, but I think it does
best then I think it's really like what honestly I found.
I find that so interesting because it appears to be
(20:49):
so random. But what you just said was you were
interested in helping people. Yeah, and so you didn't know
what avenue, You didn't know what that was gonna look like,
and the only thing that was present it in front
of you was a correctional officer, so you were like,
maybe I could help people that way. Ultimately, your desire
to help people has been the through line of your
(21:09):
entire career, starting with being a correctional officer. So to me,
it makes a lot of sense. Well in in the
essence of it. I find when I first noticed that
it was and my on my website or something somebody
told me, I was like, where'd you hear this. They said,
it's on your website. I said it is. And then
I thought, okay, well going back to UM with your
(21:31):
your your statement. Oh yeah, I had that jumped from
one to the other. Yes, it wasn't like a jumping.
First of all, I come out and I come from
the garment business. And I like to clarify that always,
because you know, the fashion industry, this world that everyone
is so um under its umbrella, to the point that
(21:52):
if you saw, as I always say, if you saw
a button on the shirt, people say they're in a
fashion industry. Yeah, right, you know, and for me it's uh,
the garment and three is such a wonderful place to
have come from UM and to learn from. And I
learned so much. I was just looking for a job
after I got out of UM, out of Beffet Hills
and all. I just you know, once again, you go
(22:14):
back to the New York Times, the three unemployment sectional,
see where's the bail And I saw something that was
in It was a button factory and uh, and it
was in the garment district. And I went, I got
and I got an appointment, and I applied for it.
And that was the beginning of me being in the
industry of apparel. Mm hmm. Wow, what a journey you've had,
(22:38):
and and you're still working. You're still working. I mean,
it's incredible to me that that you've had such a phenomenon,
you still have such a vibrant career. How many years
have you been working now? You know, it's interesting to
say this, Amanda, because of my found I'm so happy
(23:00):
you find my questions interesting. I really am If you
didn't know, I would be feeling like I was letting
you down here. No, it really is because my driver
who picked me up today, he had to cease from
um India Karachi. In fact, I Thinkingchia. And he's known
(23:22):
me for a little while, he said, he said that
conversation that you basically happened with me. How he is
and his wife are so impressed with me because of
the fact that I live alone and I go into
this mountain, this, this this farest and live in his
house by myself. He's always so concerned for me. He
doesn't see me with family around me. He doesn't see
(23:43):
I have a mate per se, and he just wonders
at this age. You just told me he didn't pick
me up, but I just went two Italy for four days,
came back, went to a galah, went to Harry Styles
and show the next night, then back and then and
then one night Harry Styles, one night Harry Style. Then
(24:05):
flew down to Detroit to go to the Malcolm X
Opera and then come back. He said, who does that?
Someone who doesn't have a partner and a bunch of kids.
It has the truth, that's the truth. It helps. So
I think it really is. It is something that has
has been a quite an interesting thing to me too.
(24:26):
I mean, you know, you recognize your time on earth
and you you're happy as my doctors all are that. God,
You're just something we need to clone because you're just
health well. You know, there are things that begin to
ache and your body you know just start to you know, compress,
and you start to you know, find things that are
just so not as nimble or not as quick. I
(24:49):
I mentally, I really do do this. I I followed,
I'm a big fan of BTS, the K pop fan,
and I, oh my god, I'm learning so much about you. Yeah,
it's a very important thing too to be inspired by.
This is an important be fan fact that we need to.
We need to, we need to have this on your website.
(25:11):
This especial you need because it helps me, because because
they are great dancers, and because of it, I just
watched just because I can do all the steps in
my head. I'm a dancer and I and then you
try to do some of them. You can do some
of them, you know if you get up, because I
(25:31):
can always still move and dance. So I think the
important thing really is like how you you live your
life and how important you make your life to you,
you know, um and not. I'm lucky that I'm not
much of a follower. I don't I have you know,
I don't go down the yellow bick road so easily.
I you created your own path. Yeah, I mean, if
(25:55):
I am truly novelly, I mean, I know you're a
travel I'm just gonna say it, Bethan. You are an
O G trailblazer and you have brought so many people
along with you. And that is your compassionate heart that
(26:16):
has wanted so many people who have been on the
sidelines to be able to succeed. It's interesting, good point
the point to Yeah, it's a good point. I mean,
you do care very much about many other people. And
then it's something you have to have a great deal
of natural compassion uh for others. And I think it's
(26:38):
and and that be as as JUDGMENTO. I think judge
being judgmental comes when you're older. And surely I find
that I could live a lot with less And I
think that comes from deciding what what you're needing what
you don't. And I do think it's important too. I'm
lucky enough to live a more useful mind, uh, and
(27:02):
I think that has a lot to do with helps
me a lot to be who I am too. And
most of the people that are I'm surrounded by are
much more younger than I because that's just the way
it's always been. I mean, I am a mama seated
too many people and you and and it really just
comes that way. And there are not many people like
I mean, how many people am I going to get
(27:23):
to go see Harry stuff with me? My? Yeah? You know,
I think you probably had quite a few people who
would have done that though, you know, well I'm having
the tickets. If you were holding the tickets for Harry
Styles one night only, I can think of I bet
you had a few people who wanted that ticket. Well,
you know, what's more important. What I'm trying to do,
(27:45):
I'm working on right now is to try to get
management to please come come back to the point that
he needs to be seen in a small venue. So
I've been talking about this for a while now, So
now I haven't gotten a chance to write back. I
can tell them, you know how much I enjoy it,
can do that, But they know I'm coming at them again.
As Harry, you say to me, just keep I tell
(28:07):
him myself, I'm poking. I'm poking. Yet from poking him,
he said, keep poking, keep poking, because I really think
that they be more more and more people a little
bit more serious would appreciate hearing what I know about
him before, you know, before going into a in a
stadium and being But they'll screaming fans. That's not the
(28:27):
money maker, you know, it's not the other One's not
the money making. But they're making so much money they
could just slice like a David Bowie would do. They
could slice in a moment or two and small venues
because they have nothing to lose. You know, he's gonna
be fifteen nights at at Madison Square. Oh, I know.
I heard that the other day my husband The Strokes
(28:48):
did one night that and we were talking about how
Harry Styles was doing fifteen and how just I picked
That was the second you mentioned David Bowie I interviewed
and on and you. Yes, we're part of that interview too, Yes,
it was. It was. It was a beautiful honor to
(29:11):
be able to interview her because what an incredibly iconic
woman who also shared such immense, lasting and deep love
with her husband David Bowie. And it was such a
beautiful honor for me to be able to interview you
(29:31):
both together. That was years ago. That's right, that was
the first I think that's the first interview she talked
about the person, if you she had done since then, Yeah, yeah,
I remember very well, since we were going to be
with either before going to Paris up. Yeah, no, that's
very true. Yeah, he was very dear to me too.
Um um. But they're they're there, That's what I'm saying.
(29:55):
Someone like he, I mean, you get that, you get
an opportunity like it's rare that any I don't know
if any body who's ever done fifteen nights at Madison
Square Garden, and I honestly I know Billy Joel will
do five or maybe six, maybe ten. I'm fifteen. I
mean that's that's that's that's that's that you think you
(30:15):
can pull that and that's twenty two seats or something. Yeah,
it's huge, and I've already done. I've already done October Harry.
I've done now this one, and going back, I'll be
just going to just see um, you know, I want
to see death Hines. I do want to see him open. Yeah,
he's great, and this is a big thing for him
because he too doesn't do this, so it's gonna be
(30:38):
interesting for them to see. But at some point he
needs to he needs to really let people know. People said, what,
you really love him that much because they haven't heard
what I've heard. They don't listen to him. So I
I discovered him when I could just hear him. I
love that. So your your point of view and your
perspective at this stage of the aim is so on point.
(31:01):
You're like an oracle or something. You really are. I
have to remember that. That's mythical has called me for
the last fifteen years. Well I'm late. They are audy
on that, but I I just got to remember this
because when I'm when I'm really struggling with making a
decision that I need to be coming to you. So
(31:23):
one of the things that I wanted to your attention
to is that we're living in a time where there
is more representation of diverse perspectives and points of view
that we've ever seen. Yes, and your work has been
(31:43):
a large part of that shift and continues to be.
But what would you say to someone who is from
a background that would not usually allow them entry into
the world how it's been, which is a very exclusive world.
What would you say to someone who is maybe looking
(32:05):
at the current climate and saying, maybe there's a space
for me here finally? Oh wow, Yeah, you know, the
truth be a toll depending on what the industry you're
talking about. You know, everything is a go. I mean
you always have to think everything is to go. That
the important thing of it is it's important to have
something to give, and it's it's really important to really
(32:28):
work hard at something and uh not everyone's going to
get through the I always call it the tunnel. Uh.
Many people used to say to me when they used
to see me, especially once I started my model agency
and I was more visible. They sell me with dreads
long present and I would go to schools to talk
and I used to do this this this teaching it,
(32:48):
uh parsons and they say to me, wow, ms, wow,
that's interesting. You black woman with dreads too. Boy, how
did you get into that industry? Well, first of all,
I work in the fashion industry. It's not it's not
like going into a corporate situation. It's uh, it's a
little different. It's a little bit more lenient. And even
then you think about it, people sometimes our industry erasist,
(33:11):
the industry of fashion erasist things. You don't notice it,
but you know, there was a time in this uh
this the sixties and seventies where things start to change,
even in that industry where because New York and fashion
and moment in time where things were really meant to
change because of the movement prior to that, you know,
(33:33):
when black was beautiful, that that that there was a
say before black lives matter, and so they were naturally
pushed from the panthers and all to just make sure
that naturally whites began to embrace a lot of black culture.
So there was a lot of that then, and that's
why you could see so many There was a model
(33:54):
agency called Black beauty. A lot of actors and actors
came out of that that you would see like the
guy who who's a leading and UH and staff was
he was in that agency, he was a model. So
there are a lot of that that that it existed
and then something changes, waves moved in this industry. Well
(34:17):
in every area. I think that you can feel confident
that right now things have opened up a lot. I
still say to everyone, specially designers and designers, please, you know,
recognize the fact that no one's gonna last forever. Do
your best to be the one that does m H.
Because people need to really, especially in now the industry
(34:37):
where there are people call to design apparel or houseware
or wherever. But my my neighborhood is apparel. So when
you're in that area, you have to know that it's
But so it's limiting and it's a hard business to
be in, and it's a tough business to be in,
but you have to really learn the business. Really, try
(35:00):
to find a decent team and if not, try to
find more importantly to work for someone else. First, don't
put it all on yourself, right, learn, learn the skills
and don't and it's okay too it's okay to start
small and not feel like you have to start, you know,
(35:21):
at a certain success level, because nobody does that. Don't
no one like wakes up over and has overnight success. Really,
there's everybody's got a journey of how they got to
where they are today exactly. And oftentimes we think that,
you know, because so much generations now see someone who's
youngish looking successful, they think they can be you tomorrow.
(35:44):
They don't think. They don't want to do what is
called a decent apprenticeship or internship. They don't want to.
They just want to get there. And truth be a told,
it's very rare beings that really can jump start themselves
off because they're so talented and what they have at
that moment is needed by an industry, whatever industry. I
(36:06):
don't be gaming, it could be anything. Well, gaming is
much more interesting, but I mean, gave me gaming, you
you know how to do that, You've pretty much got
a job. But the end of the day, it's just
more important to really have your skills. And I think
going to work for another whether you be a photographer
a designer, is so good. To learn the craft underneath
(36:26):
someone else and build and then you can go off
and spend and people will take it even more seriously. Yeah,
that's very true. While let me let me ask you
about the voices who inspired you in your life. Who
are the most significant if you could, I'm sure there's
so many, But if you could pick a couple of
(36:48):
people who really were role models for you that you
even knew or didn't know, who would those people be?
Mm hm wow. I don't really have role models. I
always try to think about that. I have people along
the way that really taught me and encouraged me, But
(37:11):
I never call role models. I mean, there are people
in the garment business. It wasn't for those people, I
wouldn't be Beth. And I think today I wouldn't have
had the opportunities I had. I wouldn't have had the
opportunity to learn or that they took time to teach me.
And I was at low end dresses and junior dresses
and button factories and things like that until I went
(37:33):
started to get out and be with like a designer
like Willie Smith and then Stephen Burrows and on and on.
But I don't. I mean, there are people who I
do who really took me under the wing or educated
me or gave me guidance. Someone say, but gave me guidance,
I don't. I don't. You know, even my father and
my mother, I don't consider them role models because nothing
(37:56):
that I do, I don't know anyone else is done.
Mm hmm. And I don't get I get all the
the wisdom from between my dad, my mother, and my grandmother.
You know, uh, the two Jewish women I worked for,
the the little Jewish woman that ran the money gut
market company. I mean, I can name those people and say,
(38:19):
those are the people who really gave me a foundation,
or you know, uh Henry had cab at cabin button company,
who believed in me and took a chance. Those people, Yes,
but I I look at them as as pillars of
strength that gave me a start and believe in me
enough to educate me about the most the smallest things
(38:40):
that you would think wouldn't mean anything to a lot
of kids today, but meant everything to become someone did. Now,
that's the thing about being a trailblazer. There is no
path that has been created for you. You have to
create your own. So I'm not surprised to hear you
say that I also have not had role model is
particularly I've had many people that have helped me and
(39:02):
guided me along the way, but I never had role
models because when I started out hosting live late night
television at age fifteen, nobody else looked like me. It
was my age was doing it. So I was like,
fuck it, I guess I'll create the path for this one.
As you say that, it's very funny because but me too, like,
(39:24):
you know, being someone who was a woman of color,
primarily having a model agency that you know, you know,
it's you're you're, you're, you're competing against your white counterparts.
I don't have anyone I could go to and ask
how did you do this or how did you do that?
Even as a model agen because what I was doing
(39:45):
was so going to be so different, and I couldn't.
I couldn't go to Eileen Ford or you're the only
person who really really in that industry, I would say,
really had my back with Johnny casta Blanca, really that
he was If anybody has to say, everybody, if they
hear this, will say, oh, she's leaving me out. Well,
(40:06):
in this case, I'm telling the truth. I you know, yes,
I worked at an agency. Yeah, but then when I left,
they try to bury me. Yeah, but Johnny always had
my back, I mean as a He said, how dare
you go off and start an agency? Where's that place?
I said, A north Moore. He had never heard of it.
I said, I know, I'm trying to go someplace. He said,
(40:27):
what are you doing? Why don't you tell me you're
interested in this? Whatn't you come work for me? You're
not give you a job? And I said, I'm not
looking for a job. I gotta do this. He said,
you really got to do it on your own. I
said yeah. He said okay, and he had my back. Wow.
I love to hear that story because I've heard a
lot of stories about what a misogynist he was, so
it makes not at all happy to hear this. No,
(40:49):
I don't believe that's true at all. I've never felt
that way about Johnny. I mean, Johnny was an attractive
guy and he didn't he he was, you know, and
people were and he was charming, you know, but he
really he did. He said, listen, there was a they
had a whole thing with model agencies where they had
to like a foundation and you had to join. And
he told me, no, you don't join. He said, you
(41:11):
don't need to join. He said, anything you need to know,
I'll call you in type and he did that way.
I was nobody for me to join, and I'm so
glad I didn't because when these women that wanted to
sue all the agencies, I wasn't a part of it.
He had my back all the time, he I mean.
And that's why it's crazy that Gerard Eileen was. I mean,
(41:32):
I knew him. He too was a supporter, but not
like Johnny. Is it possible that someone could be a
support to you and also behave badly with women? Yeah,
as well, because that's very possible. Yeah, it happens. It
does happen. It happens with me because as Eman always says,
(41:53):
would you always take up with the boys, because when
girls and guys fight, No, you, I always try to
see the eyes side of it. Oh, I try to
help the girl understand how she has to understand that.
You know, come on, there's a lot of limitations on
that side. You know, she gotta know what to deal
with with you. She always says, you always seem to
have an understanding, But no, I do. I I do it.
(42:13):
I think sometimes I have people say, well, a lot
of people respect that you're they were afraid of you,
or they wouldn't dare. Yeah. Yeah, I guess it may
be a combination of those many things. But I know
a few. And there's one person I'm crazy about and
I don't care what he does, how he does it.
I'm gonna help him. And if I got to sit
down and have him, because I know he's losing his
(42:35):
his he's losing everything because of actions. Yeah, those are
some of the more difficult and nuanced conversations that I
too have been having with true some guy friends of
mine who um are really navigating the impact of uh
(42:59):
the me too movement well public stories that are not
necessarily quantified, and I say that, um, it's very dangerous,
very very dangerous. And on the on the other side,
if it's not handled correctly, they'll be a lot of
women who are afraid to speak up. So I I
live in hope that women will understand the significance of
(43:24):
this moment in time where there's more of a flaw
for us, and to really respect that and not use
it to you know, because we need to keep it.
We do, we really really do. It's very true. So Bethan,
What are you? What is exciting you now? What are
(43:45):
you focused on? What inspires you? Where do you think
we have more work to be done? And where where
is the space that you want to be doing more work? Okay,
there are individuals that excite me now because I get
inspired by silly things. Who are some of those people? Well,
(44:06):
Harry Styles, Okay, don't embarrass me, but Harry Styles, ttf
Aurora James. There there's some kids out there that are
doing things that you know, they're down my neighborhood. There,
my neighborhood. She's got the fifteent pledge, but she inspired
me before she had the pledge. I mean, I like,
(44:27):
there's there are people who really do some interesting work
and they care about things and they're looking to make
a difference. And I like that. Um. I like. I
love the fact that I have created certain places for
me to be and in those places that I've created
for myself to be without even thinking I was doing that.
(44:49):
I love the community that is there that gives me
support and inspires me. I love the places that I
live because they're inspiring. Um. And I I love and
I'm as life goes on, I am truly sort of
taken with me too. Uh not me too, me too,
(45:11):
but me myself. Yeah, yeah, I am. I. I sort
of look at things that go wow and I And
the only thing I I'm sort of disappointing is that
I start to be not as strong in my body.
That I don't like. Not not that the physical self,
not the internal organs or anything. Um that I the
(45:35):
only thing I'm glad about. I still can make movement,
I can still dance, do things like that. But I
think it's it's important. Uh, there are people who you
really appreciate, you know, in many ways your friends, like
my long term relationship with him and is very important
even when we barely ever agree on Holly anything. Sometimes
when we're talking, which is David used to think it
(45:56):
was the funniest thing. And then you love each other
and you can you can love each other and have
different perspectives and that's okay, and that's just true. And
this is true. And she she cares very much about
my time on earth. When I leave the search. She
wants to make sure all my ducks in her road,
things that who's taken care of that, you know, because
we're very real. Were both raised as Muslim kids, you know,
(46:18):
so were beautiful. She's helping you prepare for when it's
your time to pass on. That's right, and we're we're
straight up about that. So it's not like people beautiful. Yeah,
I think that the most important things right now for
me is really uh lightning loads. I like the purage,
get rid of clothes, get rid of things in the house,
and you've got too much stuff, and I think it's
(46:41):
important and I just I just love I like the
respect that I'm giving mm hmm. And when it's not,
I feel it's like crazy. You know what, Bethan, It
has been such a treat for me to speak to
you today. I I have immense respect for you and
(47:04):
I just have a lot of love for you, and
being able to speak to you a little bit today
it's such an honor. And I already just look forward
to next time I can hug you and look into
your beautiful face. And you know know that we are
connected well, you know our we do have that, and
(47:29):
we have that for a lot of reasons, as you
and as we basically first started the conversations with our nick,
that's for sure. And uh, I do I want to
see you when I'm out in the West. When you
come east, we need to just break you, break that
moment where we don't and yet we think we will,
(47:51):
and just do. Okay, I will make that commitment. I
will make that commitment happily. And if you do, I'll
get your ticket. You know it, you know it. I
love you, Bethan, Thank you, Thank you so much. You've
been listening to VS Voices. My thanks to today's guest,
Bethan Hortison. If you love our show, please comment, like,
(48:14):
and subscribe to wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts,
and as always, please follow me Amanda Acadeeney on Instagram, Twitter,
and Facebook. Thank you for listening. VS Voices is part
of Victoria's Secrets ongoing commitment to become one of the
world's leading advocates for women. To deliver on that promise. Together,
(48:34):
we have created the Voices platform to do just that.
Amplify the voices, represent the views, and learn from the
unique perspectives of women from every background. Sharing stories bring
us closer together, and it's how we move forward, open
up dialogue, and raise the game
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