FULL INTERVIEW: Courtney B. Vance & Dr. Robin L. Smith Talks New Book, Mental Health, & Empowering Young Boys +More

Courtney B. Vance & Dr. Robin L. Smith Talks New Book, Mental Health, & Empowering Young Boys +More 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
What's up? Its way up with Angela Yee, I'm Angela yee.
My guy Mano is. I was like, Mana, you got
to stay for.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
This well because we need you here, all right. And
we have Courtney B. Vance and doctor Robin el Smith
here talking about this book The Invisible Ache.

Speaker 1 (00:15):
Oh man, listen.

Speaker 2 (00:17):
I have all my little quotes from different parts of
the book that I wanted to talk about. But I
felt like for Meno because a lot of this book
is about black men identifying their pain, and Mano, I
feel like it's somebody that hasn't tapped into that, you know.

Speaker 1 (00:32):
Yet. Yeah, he says that he's cured.

Speaker 3 (00:36):
I'm joking, but I tapped in understandable at as a
black man that there's a lot of issues that we
haven't addressed.

Speaker 4 (00:45):
Right.

Speaker 3 (00:45):
I spent a lot of years in prison, so that alone,
you know, you know, you couple that with just being
in the type environment that I grew up in. There
is a lot of things that we haven't dealt with,
and you don't know until later on, until you see
certain things happening, which you know.

Speaker 5 (01:02):
So I went through a period of.

Speaker 3 (01:04):
Time while I was getting a lot of therapy because
I hadn't needed at that time.

Speaker 5 (01:07):
But I think therapy is.

Speaker 3 (01:10):
You can continue to get it. I don't think you
can get it for a time a certain time and
the stop.

Speaker 6 (01:15):
Oh no, oh no. That's why we're here. That's what
the invisible way is about.

Speaker 7 (01:19):
And let me just say something.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
I love.

Speaker 6 (01:23):
What you just said about being in prison, not that
you were there, but everybody's in prison, whether they know
it or not. Some people are locked up, which is
different than the prison we have in our minds, and
is that prison that many black men, black boys, and
black people do not realize that just because we are

(01:46):
no longer enslaved does not mean there are not shackles
on our thoughts, on our minds, that we are not
living into lies instead.

Speaker 7 (01:55):
Of the truth about who we were destined and born
to be. Yeah. So, so sometimes people.

Speaker 6 (02:02):
End up in a physical prism because of the prison
that they were surviving long before that big house, you know,
and you know mental absolutely.

Speaker 5 (02:18):
That actually has long lasting effects. You see.

Speaker 3 (02:21):
I read a book, I'm sorry, I read a book
called Chains and Images of Psychological Slavery, and it talked about,
you know, some of the some of the things that
we took from slavery. Right, some of the way we spoke,
the way we thought, some of those things and how
we dealt with each other came which derived directly from slavery.

(02:42):
But it was it was like a revolving door. It
kept us down. And so that's that mental shackles that
you're talking about.

Speaker 7 (02:48):
Absolutely absolutely same thing with like fraternities.

Speaker 6 (02:52):
And I know Andrews said, wait a minute.

Speaker 7 (02:55):
There are people.

Speaker 6 (03:00):
List but what I wanted, but I will say also
if we look at black fraternities and sororities in particular,
and Courtney and I write about this in The Invisible Ache,
black Men identifying their Pain and Reclaiming their power our
new book, What where is it that Black men in

(03:21):
college learn to put their hands on other black men
and call it a fraternity and call it lazing? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (03:28):
Hey, well that when when you're pledging and well.

Speaker 7 (03:33):
It's it has its own.

Speaker 6 (03:34):
And the reason I bring this up is because as
you're talking about what happened in slavery.

Speaker 7 (03:39):
That we brought with us that revolving door.

Speaker 6 (03:43):
When people are in college or in a gang wherever
it is, and we are harming ourselves and each other,
we don't realize that we are re enacting a part
of slavery that made us hate ourselves and hate the
other people that look like us.

Speaker 2 (04:00):
Indeed, think about the branding that goes with that, the
paddling and all of those things. I want to ask
because the way you guys put this book together is
very unique.

Speaker 1 (04:10):
You know, we have doctor Robin, who.

Speaker 2 (04:13):
We've all seen and very acclaimed therapists, psychiatrists from OPRAH
and in your own right, you know, you have your
own show one serious also, and then of course Courtney
b Vance, who, by the way, besides being just an
extraordinary actor. And I know we can't talk about much
of that because of sag after and the strike that's
happening right now and that part of it. But you

(04:35):
guys came together to do this book, and Courtney you
shared a lot of things about yourself that also led
to you seeking out therapy. And then doctor Robin you
also explained in these chapters he was talking about things
from his childhood and his adulthood that led to you
guys kind of coming to get her to do this.
What made you decide this was necessary?

Speaker 4 (04:55):
Well, it's necessary for me because I was in I
was shackled and didn't realize it until my mother asked
my sister and I after we spend a month getting
my mother's affairs together after my father passed away, she
challenged us as we were about to leave, she said,

(05:15):
I want you to go back to our respective cities.
She said, I want you both to when you go
back to to New York and to Maryland, to get
some therapy, find a therapist.

Speaker 6 (05:28):
Because Daddy Vance died by suicide, so he didn't just
pass away.

Speaker 8 (05:33):
He died by suicide.

Speaker 7 (05:34):
So that's why Mommy said, we're going to do We
got to this, we got to break this.

Speaker 4 (05:39):
And so neither one of us knew. Well, I had
never heard about therapy, so I was okay, Mommy, because
if Mommy says, it is done. So we both said okay,
but you know the the actual going back and how
that happens, you know. Gratefully, thankfully I was able to afford.

(06:02):
I was on Broadway doing six Greed Separation, so I
was on top of the theatrical world. But with my
father's suicide and death, I was unmoored. And so the
question was simply where everything came up? Then it was
I was a remember sitting on stoop outside my therapists,
my eventual therapist office, and you know at Gramercy Park,

(06:25):
and if you know anything about Gramsey Park, you can't
get in there, you know, unless you you you one
of the property owners around the park.

Speaker 8 (06:35):
There's a key.

Speaker 4 (06:36):
So I'm sitting on the stoop waiting for my therapist time,
my therapy time, and I'm you know, I'm on the
quote unquote top of the theatrical world, and I'm sitting
on a stoop and these white people are walking by
me looking like looking at me like I'm about to
steal something from them? Or what is he doing on
the what's he doing in this area?

Speaker 8 (06:55):
Right? You know?

Speaker 4 (06:56):
And so I go into my therapy session and I'm like,
I feel so bad. I feel I'm nothing. And she said, well, Courtney,
wait a minute, what what are you You're on top
of the what are you doing?

Speaker 8 (07:06):
What's right?

Speaker 4 (07:07):
Not to explain to her, but she said, oh, you know,
and you know, just the you know, it's it's all
of us. All of us are shackled. We we talked
about that prior to the beginning of the show. All
of us are shackled. The question is what are you
going to do about it? So we began to She
began with, you know, just seeing where I was. She said, Courtney,

(07:30):
do you how do you make decisions? And I said,
I don't know. I just flip a coin. Isn't that
are you doing? She said okay, because she said Courtney,
sometimes you know there's there's nothing to do. You just
got to wait. Is it could tell me some of
the Do you have the patience to let the mud
settle in the water and the water become clear?

Speaker 1 (07:51):
I saw that. That was laudsu you said that said
that said.

Speaker 8 (07:55):
Why water become clear? Patient? No, not to go? So
she said, that'll.

Speaker 2 (08:02):
Be patient and just let everything settle. I have like
twenty questions from what you just said. Number one from
the book you talked about even getting a therapist the
right person. That's important to discuss, right, because sometimes you
can be turned off if you have an experience you're
going to talk to somebody. You had that experience where
it just wasn't the right fit and getting those recommendations.

(08:24):
So just talking to people who are listening. Sometimes we
feel like our therapist has to look like us, right,
and you know, do I need to have a black person?
So I want you to discuss the process of finding
the right therapist for you. And if you don't have
the right person to make sure that it's like dating
kind of, you have to yeah, find somebody that you're
compatible with.

Speaker 1 (08:44):
So can you talk about that process.

Speaker 4 (08:46):
Which is why you've got to be ready for the journey.
You've got to say, I'm doing this for me, and
I'm doing it for I'm in it for the long
haul and whatever that means, because there's so many obstacles
even when you find a therapist like us my therapy night. Uh,
you know, there's so many reasons to say I'm not
going to do it. But you know, I had gotten

(09:07):
to the place where I was at the end of
my rope, but not the end of my hope. So
I said, you know, every that was my time. I
so looked forward to my time, and I moved everything
out of the way for that, you know, And so
my life centered around my therapy session and and my therapist,
doctor Cornfield, Margaret Cornfield got rest her. So she she

(09:31):
challenged me and in so many ways, but she challenged me.
She said, Courtney, I need you to get your dreams
because that's how we met. We met on a dream
because the night before I went to meet her, I
had a dream. I never I don't dream, at least
I didn't think I did a dream. And there was
a certain pattern in my dream and whatever. And so
when I met her and I shook her hand at

(09:52):
her office and turned to the left. There were two
officers that she had right and the left, and turned
the right hands to the stero to the left. I
saw the path in my dream on a pillow in
her on her couch. So I said I knew, I knew,
And when I shook her hand, I know I was home.
But when I saw that, I said, this is me
right here. And I just started babbling, just back because

(10:13):
I had sat down with a sister and just sat
there with my head in my hands. Because for an
hour she wouldn't help me. I said, I didn't know
what to do? What do I say? What do you
say in therapy? I don't know. I didn't know anything.
You know, what are you going to help me?

Speaker 5 (10:32):
What are you looking for something?

Speaker 8 (10:34):
I wasn't for her to say, how do we do this?

Speaker 2 (10:36):
This is your first time doing that. I don't know
the process, the protocol.

Speaker 4 (10:40):
She was not she was not gentle with me. She
just was sitting there. And then finally, when I had
my head in my hands, she said, do you have
a headache. I said, no, I don't have a headache.

Speaker 8 (10:51):
I just don't know.

Speaker 2 (10:52):
We're just sitting here looking at each other like okay, somebody.

Speaker 8 (10:55):
Fifty minutes because you.

Speaker 9 (10:56):
Know, yeah, you know, so you know, I mean, it's
just it's it's it's and then don't even talk about
paying for it, you know, the whole.

Speaker 8 (11:08):
I mean, my father, my therapist said that.

Speaker 4 (11:10):
Cornfield said, if if your father had been my patient,
I would have put him in the hospital to save
his life.

Speaker 8 (11:16):
You know.

Speaker 4 (11:17):
And my my, my, my godson who during COVID his
parents couldn't go into the session with him to advocate,
and he was fine when he was going to he
would go to the doctor's evaluation visits for two hours.

Speaker 8 (11:33):
He was fine.

Speaker 4 (11:34):
But as soon as he left out of there, maybe
a day or two later, he had an episode and
he said, we we just you honey.

Speaker 8 (11:40):
Didn't you get any prescription? Did you? Did you tell
him you have episodes? Do you get a prescription? No?

Speaker 4 (11:46):
Mommy, I was fine, I'm fine. So that's you know that.
I mean, how many young people people in general slipped
slipped through the cracks during COVID because they couldn't get
you know, go to funerals, couldn't go to wedding, only
ten people.

Speaker 8 (12:01):
And you know they can go to school, you can
go to school.

Speaker 1 (12:04):
I mean I couldn't see their friends.

Speaker 6 (12:05):
I mean the well and it's his godson. Courtney's godson
was twenty three years young. And you know, one of
the things we talk about in the book is what
is it that Courtney's father and his godson were saying
that maybe we couldn't hear. And so part of the

(12:30):
Invisible Ache is about calling all black boys and black
men and the people that love them, but particularly black
boys and black men, to the floor of their own life.
It's like an altar call, not for God, but an
alter call to re engage with yourself in a way

(12:52):
that either you never have or you haven't for a
very long time. There's you know, when we talk about
how to find the right therapists, people will say Angela,
as you were saying, well, uh, maybe the person needs
to be black because I'm black. They need to be
Christian because I'm Christian. And so I will ask people
when you go for if you have to have heart

(13:14):
surgery or eye surgery? Do you ask for a black surgeon?
Do you know what you want to know is can
you get me off the table alive?

Speaker 8 (13:23):
Right?

Speaker 6 (13:23):
Can you get my Can I keep my eyesight? Can
you keep my heart beating so that I can live?
And so many of us miss out and I understand why,
and Courtney and I talk.

Speaker 7 (13:36):
About this because we as black people have.

Speaker 6 (13:38):
Been experimented on, literally experimented on healthcare. And it's not
there's no there's no care, right absolutely.

Speaker 1 (13:47):
I mean black women having to deal with maternal health care.

Speaker 6 (13:51):
Well maternal health care, having hysterectomies that they didn't need
having see sections. I mean yeah, right, so no, right absolutely,
So there's no question that our suspicion makes sense. And
it's our responsibility to understand that that's just another way
to keep us out of the game of our own lives,

(14:15):
meaning to make us afraid, so afraid that we don't
go to doctors.

Speaker 7 (14:19):
And black men you know, who are dying and get this,
dying more of.

Speaker 6 (14:25):
Prostate cancer but diagnosed because they're not diagnosed because they
don't go, So we get it less, but we die more.
We get breast cancer less Black.

Speaker 7 (14:36):
Women, but we die more.

Speaker 6 (14:39):
What we see now with suicides is that black not
just black people, and not only black men. We know
have Courtney's god son and his dad in twitch you
know from Ellen, there's so many black men who have
died by suicide. But the other thing we don't know,
but we know now from the research is black children children,

(15:00):
not ado lessons. Black children are dying at a higher
rate of suicide than any other population in this country.

Speaker 5 (15:09):
Saying they depressed.

Speaker 7 (15:10):
It absolutely depressed. Anxious.

Speaker 6 (15:13):
Social media the way in which you can be bullied
and taunted, and you can also see this airbrush life
that you think everybody else is living.

Speaker 2 (15:23):
And that like I was telling mana how often have
you heard a man up like you said?

Speaker 1 (15:27):
Or boys don't cry? You're not supposed to cry.

Speaker 2 (15:29):
You gotta be tough and put on this really tough
exteria to be outside.

Speaker 3 (15:33):
And then you're looking at social media and you're thinking
that you got to have certain things, you think you
got to have. Your life has to be a certain way,
you got to look a certain way, and it puts
you in a maybe in a depressed state because you
don't you don't, you don't you may not have that,
you know, when we talk about.

Speaker 7 (15:50):
And the people were watching, a lot of them don't
have it either.

Speaker 5 (15:56):
My cousin committed suicide.

Speaker 7 (15:57):
Died by suicide.

Speaker 6 (15:58):
The reason I want to, okay that is we are
learning to not say committed suicide because that's like committed
a crime. So your cousin, Courtney's got some Courtney. Yeah,
they didn't. They didn't commit a crime. They ran out
of out of heart to keep going. So we just
want to give new language. Right.

Speaker 2 (16:20):
It used to be very taboo to say somebody die
by suicide, like they did something, they did something wrong, selfish, right, selfish?

Speaker 7 (16:27):
They were so please, I just want to yeah help.

Speaker 5 (16:30):
Was he thirty maybe?

Speaker 6 (16:34):
Okay? So young?

Speaker 8 (16:36):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (16:37):
So my question, my question is that how do how
do we help you know, young black boys and black
men you know, be open to getting help, you know
help and you know, talking to a therapist and stuff
like that. How do we get them to address their trauma?

(16:58):
You know, because we got trauma you know, right right
at home. Yes, we do, you know, before we can.

Speaker 5 (17:04):
Go outside in our environment. Doesn't help.

Speaker 3 (17:07):
When we talked about you know, social media and all
these things, because it's this pressure to be a certain
kind of way. There's pressure to be to have to
be this certain person. How do we get them to,
you know, be open to therapy?

Speaker 6 (17:23):
Yeah, the first thing I'd say, And I know Courtney
has a lot to share about that as well. And
thank you for sharing about your your cousin. Yes, so
we speak his name, you know, we I mean we
let him come in this moment, yes, and be with
us so that we can hear what he was also

(17:43):
saying in terms of his own desperation.

Speaker 7 (17:45):
But part of it.

Speaker 6 (17:46):
And Courtney and I had the pleasure and honor of
being interviewed recently for this book by Oprah, And there
are a number of black men who participated in this
this wonderful primetime special that's coming out. And one of
the young men said, I tried to tell my family,

(18:07):
but they wouldn't listen. I tried to tell my friends,
but they wouldn't listen. And so part of to answer
your question how we get black men and boys to
talk about it is to be willing to listen because
a lot of times we don't want to hear. If
you bring your vulnerability, I mean, I say, I want
your heart, but as soon as you show up as

(18:29):
a black man with your vulnerability.

Speaker 7 (18:33):
I'm pushing back on that.

Speaker 6 (18:35):
You know, if black women are telling the truth, and
I know black they don't like when I say it,
but I got to say it, and I'm not blaming us.

Speaker 7 (18:43):
What I'm saying is we, as black.

Speaker 6 (18:44):
Women, have been conditioned to tell you that we want
your heart, but when you bring it to shut it down.
We do it with men. We do it with our boys.
When girls fall down, we pick them up. We kiss
their booboos.

Speaker 7 (18:57):
When boys found out, boy get up. You're all right?

Speaker 1 (19:00):
What do you right?

Speaker 7 (19:01):
Stop crying? What are you crying for?

Speaker 8 (19:03):
Right?

Speaker 6 (19:04):
I'm like, And so part of it is to let
black men know that tears and pain are part of
your divine birthright, like as part of being a whole
human being. We're not, but this is why we're But
this is why we're here to start washing our brains

(19:26):
of the lies that say that when we were enslaved,
we were only and right out of slavery. Jim Crow,
we were three fifths a human being. Black men, you
were good for your strength, but not for your heart.
So we have to re educate ourselves that part of
our strength, part of the strength of a black boy

(19:48):
and a black man is his vulnerability.

Speaker 7 (19:52):
It's part of his superpower. I mean, and Courtney.

Speaker 6 (19:54):
Will talk about this, but part of why Courtney B
vance is Courtney B fans is because he has leveraged
his pain. I mean, he's we have to convert our
pain into what I call usable currency. So all that broken,
shattered stuff has some place, it has redemption.

Speaker 8 (20:17):
Well that's that's that's what it is.

Speaker 4 (20:18):
It's it's recognizing that that pain is a part of
your your your spirit is part of your redemption is
part of reclaiming that that that the more I go
into the vulnerable part of me, I mean, acting saved
my life during this time period because it was someplace.
As I say, I like to go to musicals and

(20:43):
anything ballet or you know, theater, anything that allows me
to sit there and what let some opera, whatever is
happening wash over me. Because as a as a as
an artist, everything is a part of my palette. Everything
is a part of what we do. Just like as
a therapist, everything people are part of our work. And

(21:03):
so the more I'm involved as John Dunn, the more
I'm involved with mankind and womankind, the more I start,
I live and I'm rejuvenated and so you know, but
it's recognizing that that that as people I'm I need,
I can't be who I am until you are and

(21:23):
you are with you are will be. So that's John
done again. The more I can, you know, I was,
you know when the Bible says that the poor will
always be with you?

Speaker 8 (21:34):
And why is that? Because we don't do what we're
supposed to do.

Speaker 4 (21:37):
If someone I'm not judging whether or not you need
the dollar I'm about to give you.

Speaker 8 (21:42):
You just said.

Speaker 4 (21:44):
I'm supposed to help. That's all I'm That's all I'm
called to do. I'm not called to do. You need
what you're gonna do, You're gonna get a drink with it.

Speaker 8 (21:51):
I just not on me.

Speaker 5 (21:53):
If you take what I give you right what you
said you needed.

Speaker 8 (21:57):
It, I'm taking you off my way. Now that's on you.

Speaker 5 (22:00):
That's on you.

Speaker 8 (22:01):
What you do. If you go to do something but you're.

Speaker 5 (22:03):
Dottle drink or drugs, that's on you.

Speaker 4 (22:05):
I was on the street today this morning and there
was a woman and you know, all I had was
of twenty That's all I had.

Speaker 8 (22:16):
I'm not good.

Speaker 4 (22:17):
She had no just barely had anything on said I'm
not gonna that's here. Well, if I walked by her
and said all I had was a twenty, what am
I doing? That's all I had? That's here. You need this,
you know you need this right So I'm gonna not
go and give it to you because.

Speaker 2 (22:37):
It's a blessing to be a blessing. Let me tell
you to be in a position where you can.

Speaker 4 (22:41):
But you have to recognize that I mean, and it's
it's not about the money, it's about the spirit of it.
I'm here to help. That's what I'm here for. That's
what That's what my wife showed me. You know, while
when we first got married, I was like, you know,
you know, you know men, you know she's about to
take you. How come she don't do for me you're

(23:03):
supposed to do? And that that took me about. It's
fun because you know, Angel Bassett, she's you know, there's
no way I'll ever make any more money than she is.
It's not about the money. It's about emotional you know,
she's she's she counts on me to emotionally be there
whenever Courtney, I just you know, I got cast your
phone Beginna, Okay, baby, what did you do? You so

(23:26):
so that that's what I got?

Speaker 8 (23:29):
I got.

Speaker 4 (23:30):
If I don't do for her, there's no way that
she's going to turn around. It's not the other way around.
You do for me, then I do. No, it don't
work that way. What do you need? What do you need?
And sometimes there's two hundred percent nothing? That's that's something
else that I had to get old.

Speaker 5 (23:48):
That's emotional.

Speaker 8 (23:49):
Though you start there. You have to start there emotional.

Speaker 1 (23:53):
Somebody to help you too.

Speaker 4 (23:56):
That's that's a whole nother transition. But but but but
my god, concert at the times at Courtney, that's who
you married. Now, what you're gonna do? And then it's
on me to you?

Speaker 8 (24:08):
So? But you know, but that's who. So what are
you gonna do? That's your situation?

Speaker 4 (24:13):
What are you gonna do about your situation? And that's life?
What am I gonna do about where I am in life?
I know what my issues are, I know what I've
come up against. I know what I just did, and
I've just ran away. I messed up a wonderful relationship. Now, Courtney,
what are you gonna do about it? Are you gonna
keep doing it? Are you gonna prepare yourself for the

(24:35):
next beautiful young lady that comes into your life, and
I take I say, I don't care how long it takes.
I'm gonna be ready for this next one. And that's
that's my spirit, that's my that's my journey, that's my my,
my my work. That I'm emotional. It's not about the money.
You do right, and the money flows. Seek the Kingdom

(24:57):
of God and his rights and those things will follow you.

Speaker 8 (25:01):
I'm not.

Speaker 4 (25:01):
I don't seek them. But the money's going to come
to me if I take care of what I've been given.

Speaker 6 (25:07):
Yes, you know, if you grow up, because a lot
of this is also about maturity, not age, but.

Speaker 7 (25:14):
What does it mean?

Speaker 5 (25:16):
You know?

Speaker 6 (25:16):
A part of being healthy, particularly again for black men
and black boys, is self care and that people look
like self care Like when has a black man thought
about self, you know, taking care of himself.

Speaker 5 (25:31):
I don't.

Speaker 7 (25:31):
I don't.

Speaker 6 (25:32):
Again, I'm good, So it's a new thing to say,
Actually I'm not feeling so good right now?

Speaker 7 (25:41):
Yeah, yeah, tell me.

Speaker 5 (25:43):
My issue with that is in the world that we
live in, right.

Speaker 3 (25:48):
And having having responsibilities, you know, being a black man
and having so many responsibilities, it's almost.

Speaker 5 (25:54):
I felt like I don't even have the luxury to
be able to not be okay, not be okay.

Speaker 7 (26:00):
Right, But let me tell you this.

Speaker 6 (26:02):
I hear you, I really do, and in many ways
you haven't had the luxury to not be okay. But
if you don't find and you asked this question about,
you know, how do we get people to go to therapy?
And I don't even mean traditional like go in and
see a therapist.

Speaker 7 (26:20):
This is therapy, you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 6 (26:23):
This is therapy, conversation, conversations that where we are.

Speaker 5 (26:26):
Saying honest, right, and the honest conversation.

Speaker 2 (26:29):
Yeah, And they're right there because you start off the
book talking about how black chauma can play hide and seek,
and a lot of times we do self medicate and
try to do things that maybe aren't really going to
help us, you know, long term.

Speaker 6 (26:45):
And so it's important just I want to just suggest
that you consider what my what the long term effects
will be on you.

Speaker 7 (26:56):
And your your life.

Speaker 5 (26:58):
I'm glad you're saying this.

Speaker 1 (27:00):
I guess All the Women Too is like a therapy
for you.

Speaker 3 (27:02):
No, for real, right, But the thing is I've I've
been at I've dealt with so much and I deal
with so much that it's like I'm numb. It's like
I'm numb to certain things, like to issue some problems.
It's like I almost expect to deal with them. It's
like I'm numb, right, and I just kind of I

(27:22):
don't ignore things.

Speaker 5 (27:24):
I deal with them.

Speaker 3 (27:25):
But I feel like, like I said earlier, I don't
have the luxury of not being okay.

Speaker 5 (27:31):
I don't have the luxury of being able.

Speaker 3 (27:33):
To just you know, say all right, I just want
to take this time off to deal with with with
me or self care, like I don't think and.

Speaker 4 (27:42):
That's fine, and that's fine, but but I'm talking about
I think we're talking about little bitty starting small just
with I was this, it was telling you today this
last night. You know, it was just in my in
the hotel room.

Speaker 8 (28:00):
I need to go get some are.

Speaker 4 (28:02):
Just for me, I mean and and and it's it's
not as as I'm and I do things, you know,
for myself. I said, I gotta do things that are
healthy for me because I mean just just wanted to
get some mare could be I'm gonna go to the club,
I'm gonna go do something, go drink and I don't drink,
but I mean, just do something.

Speaker 8 (28:19):
This is this.

Speaker 4 (28:20):
I'm not gonna do nobody no harm. I'm just gonna
I'm just gonna go out and i ain't gonna get
no trouble. I'm gonna look both ways. So there's these
these bikes and these e bikes, don't run me over,
and I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna go get
me a city bike and I'm gonna just ride around
right right right, and and just when I come back,
I know I feel better because I just I know

(28:42):
what it does for me. And so as I was driving,
I ebody got it got going. I said, well up here,
but it's my college roommate and my college friend lives
on you know, up seventy six, seventy seven in Broadway area.
I said, let me just call him, and he happened
to be home, and so I just I ended up,

(29:02):
you know, trying to get some air and ended up
being completely blessed by somebody I didn't even expect to
even talk to nobody. And we talked about twenty minutes.
I said, I ain't trying. Don't put on don't put
on no clothes. I know you got your pj's on.
Don't try to change and just I'm just hey, I'm
just gonna His wife was in there, said, hey, don't
come out here, I'm doing it. She came out and
get me hungry right back. And you know, but it's

(29:24):
it's it's small. You got to start small to do
for you, and then you start to grow into it
becomes more, you know, more specific, more you know. But
what I think, what she's asking, what she's saying, is
that you need what you know, what you need to
do for yourself. And sometimes after everybody else is taken

(29:47):
care of, everybody else is done, you good, everybody goody.
I'm gonna go for a bike ride and they know
that about me. Daddy's gonna get on the bike and
he's gonna be and I'll be back. And if you
need me, you know how to get me, text me,
call me whatever. But I need to go do for
me or I'm going to walk up the blast.

Speaker 5 (30:06):
Why just something for you?

Speaker 8 (30:07):
Something?

Speaker 7 (30:08):
And so this is what.

Speaker 6 (30:10):
When you said you don't, you know, have the luxury,
and I said to you, you don't have the luxury
not to do.

Speaker 7 (30:17):
It small things, small things, small.

Speaker 6 (30:19):
Things like if you're thirsty, to not make yourself wait
too long for that glass of water, if you need
fresh air and someone else needs something from you. Because
the issue of worthiness, I mean really of black boys
and black men feeling that they are worthy of being

(30:41):
kid for, yes, cared for, and that they are worthy
of caring for themselves, even if the people around them mothers, fathers, women, whoever,
even if someone and a society that sees you as
a threat in danger. There is something about about rewiring your.

Speaker 5 (31:01):
Own brain, right, That's the that's the thing.

Speaker 6 (31:04):
It's rewiring your own brain so that you're like, no, no,
I don't grow.

Speaker 5 (31:09):
Up feeling No, we don't. We don't grow up feeling
that we can show true, honest emotion. Yes, we shy
away from them.

Speaker 7 (31:17):
It could be dangerous, literally, people lose their lives.

Speaker 5 (31:20):
Yeah, right, So it's it's so many different.

Speaker 3 (31:23):
Elements you know in this world that helps to prevent
us from being able to be as vulnerable.

Speaker 8 (31:32):
You know.

Speaker 7 (31:33):
But if that's my superpower, right, but we have to
learn that, right, right.

Speaker 2 (31:37):
We do.

Speaker 6 (31:38):
But wouldn't that be just like the system to want
me to not claim what will make me even more?

Speaker 8 (31:46):
Right?

Speaker 4 (31:46):
Right?

Speaker 6 (31:46):
Right? No, No, we're saying, so that's part of the thing.
It's it's to keep us thinking I can't afford right.
It's to keep me than it not right that that
I better I better show nothing. You know, I always
say where it says never let them see you sweat,

(32:08):
and I'm like, that's good for a commercial, but it's not.

Speaker 7 (32:10):
Good for a soul.

Speaker 6 (32:11):
That's good for I mean, a deodor at commercial, but
never let them see you sweat.

Speaker 8 (32:16):
I mean, can I'm just not human.

Speaker 4 (32:18):
If my mother had gave that to my sister and
I went, I ain't doing that, and I would, I know,
tell them where I'd be. I may not be alive,
because I'd be I would have I have I would
have keep it approaching life with the tools that I had.

Speaker 5 (32:37):
Thinking that that, thinking that it was adequate enough and
that got me.

Speaker 4 (32:41):
That got me to where I was, But it wasn't
enough to be able to get me past where I
had come to. There's no way I would have been
able to overcome knowing that my you know, Dutch Cornfield
too little Jewishly. She challenged me to, said, Courtney, do
you have the patience to let the mud settle in
the water and the water become clear? I said, what
is that? Patients? No how do you make decisions?

Speaker 8 (33:05):
Court? Just doc I just flip a coin. Isn't that
what most people? And that what people do.

Speaker 4 (33:11):
That's good for acting, but for life life, it could
be devastating.

Speaker 8 (33:18):
And you know I didn't. I didn't. I didn't have tools.
This is what you what you you were saying. I had.

Speaker 4 (33:23):
I had tools, but only to to for achievement, only
for getting tools. I didn't know how to make decisions.

Speaker 8 (33:32):
I didn't. I didn't know nothing. That was but and
no judgments on my mother and father.

Speaker 3 (33:36):
They could law what was afforded to them.

Speaker 6 (33:41):
At that time, trying to make things better and coming
from a hell of a time, right, So it's absolutely
you can't never look back and say, well they didn't
you know what they had to deal with.

Speaker 4 (33:51):
Yeah, the rest of it is on me. They brought me.

Speaker 7 (33:56):
This far as far as they could from here on.

Speaker 5 (33:59):
That's right.

Speaker 8 (34:00):
When I left home to go to college.

Speaker 4 (34:02):
But the last thing my daddy did before he died,
he died of suicide, was pay off my college loan.
He didn't pay out none, other bills, he couldn't pay
out nothing.

Speaker 1 (34:11):
And he paid off years.

Speaker 4 (34:12):
There was ten credit cards charged up to the max,
but he paid off My talk about.

Speaker 6 (34:18):
Pressure and pressure that no one knew that his dad
was right, so he pays that. But the pressure of
wanting to take care of his family ten credit cards.

Speaker 7 (34:28):
Max st out.

Speaker 5 (34:30):
Man.

Speaker 7 (34:31):
That pressure is that pressure, your cusin that pressure whatever?

Speaker 6 (34:34):
You know that pressure twitch right, I mean we don't know, right,
that pressure.

Speaker 5 (34:40):
Right, And then they're not communicating.

Speaker 6 (34:43):
And what I would say is it's our job to
create a safe space for every black man and boy
that we say less and listen more.

Speaker 7 (34:55):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (34:55):
And I think sometimes people also think when you're a successful,
when you're a quote successful, that you shouldn't have any
problems and people definitely have less sympathy for you.

Speaker 7 (35:06):
Oh right, it's a line.

Speaker 5 (35:07):
That's such a bad misconception.

Speaker 2 (35:10):
Now, Courney, you got very personal about your house, right.
You were at home and the neighbor called the police
and they came, and that.

Speaker 1 (35:18):
Had to be a really difficult situation.

Speaker 8 (35:21):
I think the.

Speaker 1 (35:23):
Security of the security called the police.

Speaker 8 (35:26):
Somehow the ended up at down house.

Speaker 1 (35:28):
You were on vacation, okay.

Speaker 4 (35:30):
And we were we were and my wife was out
of town, the twins with three and they were sleep
thank god. And I thought I heard, you know, black
person when they they hear noise, and how they go
in the kitchen, get the biggest knife they can find,
and we start walking through the house.

Speaker 8 (35:44):
And that's what that's what I did. And Holy Spirit said,
put that knife down and go across.

Speaker 4 (35:51):
Go to the back, which butter. In order to go back,
I had to go across a big old plate glass window.
So I put the knife in the kitchen window across.
Then I said, you know what, I bet there's something
on the porch. I went on the porch. I went
to look on the porch. But on I side the
front door, there's this glass so you can look to see.
I said, I bet somebody threw a script or something

(36:12):
there for angel. I said, let me look see. Let
me look on this side, let me look on the
other side.

Speaker 8 (36:18):
Then see. I said, I got to take the alarm
off and open the door.

Speaker 4 (36:23):
Five or six police officers out there with guns screaming
at the top. This is midnight screaming a small little
town that we live in. Come out of here with
your hands out there. And I said, I don't seen
enough law in other episodes and been in a couple.

Speaker 8 (36:41):
And so I came out. I said, yes, ma'am.

Speaker 4 (36:42):
Yes, ma'am, yes, yeah, you know, and you know quiet
I said, you know I live here, Come on here,
I said, yes, ma'am. Okay, get on your knees. Okay,
we've been in the neighbor for a year. Maybe get
on in front of it was a it was an
African American police officer to my left, and she recognized, oh, lord,
lord lord, no, no, no, she recognized who I was

(37:05):
and was married to, and then she said, here's my
badge number if you ever need anything, you know. And
so eventually they you know, they found out. But you know,
I mean, I you know, and come to find out
there were five or six or seven police officers in
the back. So if I had gone across that playeglass,
they shot me, they shot me. And the twins were

(37:28):
three in the bed and they I mean, and Andrel's
out of town. So you know, it doesn't it doesn't matter,
you know, it doesn't. I mean, no, money is not
what this is about.

Speaker 8 (37:40):
You know. This is just about you know, taking learning
how and it you.

Speaker 4 (37:46):
Know, it's good. I get it. Everybody don't know. I
didn't know. But the main thing is that once you know,
if once you know, you once you know, you got
to do better. If you know better, you got to
do better. And now with our book, we're saying that
as we're going around talking that you know, I didn't know,

(38:08):
and thank god my mother challenged my sister and I
too get some help, and that we that it became
part of our say, our lifeblood, the talking things through
learning how to talk, learning how to communicate, learning how
to I mean, because as my little other phrases, it
wasn't for the people, it would be a wonderful world.

(38:30):
You got to deal with the people. Yeah, you got
to know how to deal with people.

Speaker 6 (38:35):
And also, Courtney, your your mother did something very powerful.
Often I call her, you know, the Mama lion. A
lot of times parents say do what I say, not
what I do. When they don't want us, you know,
say well you did it, daddy, you did it.

Speaker 7 (38:50):
Mom, be better than me, you know, right, well right,
His mother.

Speaker 6 (38:54):
Did something very different in the midst of all of
this trauma of her husband dying by suicide. Her children
are distraught, She's distraught. She said, we're all going to therapy,
meaning everybody's going home, you know, back to their respective cities. Courtney,
his sister and the mother would be at home in
Detroit and we're all going to get therapy. And so

(39:16):
what's important is that if we want our children to
be free, and you're doing this, you and Angela with
your kids.

Speaker 7 (39:23):
We can't tell them about freedom.

Speaker 6 (39:25):
We have to become the walking example of what we
want them to be.

Speaker 7 (39:31):
And so your mother did that for you.

Speaker 6 (39:34):
You and Angela are doing that for your children. My
family the same. I mean, like me, doctor Robin, I
have my own therapist. People are like, well, again, why
do you need a therapist. You're a therapist because I'm
a human being and I have holes ho l ees
and I want to be whole who l e, which
is a holy ho l y journey. So like right,

(39:58):
I want to take my stuff some and look at
it without judgment and shame, with compassion and curiosity. So
it's also important, as people are hearing us to recognize
that if you, as an adult are broken, which we
all have brokenness, if you want your children to have
something more, then become it. You become the freedom, You

(40:24):
become the liberation.

Speaker 7 (40:26):
Don't talk to them about it, be it.

Speaker 6 (40:29):
You know where you're like, why are you giving yourself away?
And you don't take care of yourself. Well, let me
look in the mirror as the parent and see have
I shown them anything about my worthiness of self care?
Or am I expecting them to do something that I
myself am not practicing. So just to point out it's

(40:52):
so important that parents are thinking about what message they're sending.
And we have a quote in the book that says,
the lion's story will never be known as long as
the hunter is the one to tell it.

Speaker 7 (41:05):
Yeah, the lion's story. So our story, Black boys.

Speaker 6 (41:10):
And black men, your story will never be known as
long as the hunter is the one to tell it.
And so the invisible eche black men identifying their pain
and reclaiming their power is about empowering all communities, but
particularly black boys and black men, that they are the lion,

(41:31):
they are telling their own story, and that the hunter
will no longer be the one narrating for any of us.

Speaker 2 (41:39):
You know, Before we end this, I want to ask
about you reframing forgiveness and the idea of forgiveness, because
we always talk about this and how important forgiveness is
and how important that is for ourselves, but sometimes that
word can be weird for people to be like I
forgive you, and they're like, how can you forgive somebody
for doing that? Can you just talk about that a
little bit?

Speaker 6 (42:00):
Yeah, I mean I will when I know Courtney has
his own experience with this. I think that forgiveness we
misunderstand what forgiveness is. First of all, forgiveness like deliverance.
You know when someone says I'm delivered from that or
I've forgiven someone. What I always either say out loud

(42:21):
or whisper is for this moment, meaning you might be
delivered from drugs or womanizing or man whatever we're doing
for the moment, because life has a new fresh moment
to see where I land there. Forgiveness is the same
way you could forgive someone and then watch something or

(42:43):
hear something and get all stirred up again. So forgiveness
is not about becoming someone's doormat again. Forgiveness is really
about having clear boundaries regarding your worthiness. You will and
will not tolerate. You can forgive someone and still have

(43:05):
nothing to do with them ever again in life.

Speaker 7 (43:07):
See that's very hard.

Speaker 6 (43:08):
They're like, boy, if you forgave them, then you could
still be their friend.

Speaker 7 (43:11):
Well, you don't need to be.

Speaker 6 (43:13):
Their friend that's my ministry. Yeah, I mean, you know
you don't need to be. That's not what forgiveness is.
That's like cheapness, you know, like it's an easy thing.

Speaker 7 (43:23):
Forgiveness is. I'm at peace and I'm free, and my
freedom will dictate.

Speaker 6 (43:31):
What I do and whether or not your being in
my life serves God's purpose in and through me. That
has nothing to do with whether or not I have
lunch with you ever again I return to a marriage
with That's not about that. It's about how clear am
I about my divine destiny, why I was born, who

(43:54):
God has called me to be, not whether or not
I can say, oh, I forgive you, and and what
do I do create chaos?

Speaker 8 (44:03):
Because it's a mess.

Speaker 4 (44:04):
It's about it's because it's that there's an energy to
holding on to grudges and it turns into something else.
So I'm I want to let it go. I want
to get it off me. If I'm if I messed
over you, if you messed over me, you know what
you know, I'm letting it go. And as the beauty
is of what you said is I'm letting to go.

(44:26):
But I recognize I don't need to be around you.
It's not going to happen another time. So you go
with God. You know, I bless you and I appreciate you,
but for for for you know, I look at life
like a bullseye. It's like a bullseye. There's only certain
people you let in that inner circle, and those people

(44:47):
have been tested through time, and there's other rings. You
may be able to be in another one of my rings,
but you ain't coming into my inner circle because what
we just went through for both of us, right right,
But I'm letting awfully it's off of me. Now, Yeah,
I'm sorry, or I forgive, forgive, I forgive you, but

(45:07):
you know you we both know that's let's goes.

Speaker 8 (45:10):
I agree to disagree and go separate way.

Speaker 6 (45:12):
So yeah, yeah, no, no, no, I mean I think
the other thing I just want to say, which is
I love Courtney. When I hear you talk about the
energy around what we hold on to, and you know
what we what we focus on, uh becomes our life

(45:34):
and what becomes our life and what we focus on
actually has dominion over us.

Speaker 7 (45:38):
It's the it's those shackles again.

Speaker 6 (45:40):
And so if I'm in a relationship of any kind
and I'm focusing on something negative or something negative keeps
getting created, and I don't ask the question Courtney said,
which is what am I going to do about it?
Not when are you going to stop doing what you're doing?
Not when are you going to change?

Speaker 7 (45:59):
Now?

Speaker 6 (46:00):
When are you going to care about what you're bringing
to our dynamic? But when am I going to care?
When am I going to care? I had a friend
who said to me that her husband at the time said,
you know, I don't give an f about you, and
she was devastated.

Speaker 7 (46:16):
I didn't say it to her in that moment.

Speaker 6 (46:18):
But shortly thereafter I said, you know, the issue isn't
really whether or not he gives an F about you,
but do you give an F about yourself? I mean,
that's what the invisible ache. It's like I have an
ache and maybe you don't care about it. And I
didn't used to care about it, but I've gotten some
new intelligence, I have some new news that my ache.

(46:42):
I'd like care about what hurt me. I care about
my trauma, and I don't want to take my trauma
and bleed all over you, because that's what we do
when we haven't taken care of our trauma. We bleed
out on other people, and other people bled out on us.

Speaker 7 (46:58):
I mean, okay, but what am I going to do
about it?

Speaker 1 (47:01):
Right? Sometimes you have to take control of your own.

Speaker 4 (47:04):
When you're sitting on the edge of your bed at
two in the morning, everybody does you know what you
need to do and you know what you're dealing with?

Speaker 8 (47:13):
Nobody does but you and God.

Speaker 4 (47:14):
At that point, you're sitting on the edge of your
bed at two in the morning, you know what you
need to do. You may go out after at six
o'clock in the morning, you get up, you put your
mask on your back to But at two o'clock in
the morning, we know exactly where we are and what
we're dealing with, and the question is what we're going
to do?

Speaker 1 (47:34):
Really ask me all the time. I'm like, all right,
let's make a move.

Speaker 2 (47:40):
Well, and Courtney, I want to ask you, as president
of the sag After Foundation, what do you think about
Like it's been tough with all these negotiations, and that
has to be hard for the actors too, and for
the writers. So what are some things that you've been
seeing and what are you hoping for?

Speaker 4 (47:55):
I'm hoping that the strike is over very shortly, right,
That's the only thing I can hope. I think I
think we're very close. That's what I've heard. The negotiations
are secret, so you know, we're the Foundation, We're not.
The negotiations are happening between the streamers heads and the
studio heads and the union, right so as soon as

(48:18):
they let us know. I mean, our job is the foundation,
I'm president of the Foundation, is to raise money for
these at such a time as this, so that folks
who are on the picket lines, who are out of
work for five six months now that they can their
bills can still be paid.

Speaker 1 (48:35):
Yeah, that's a tough time to be in.

Speaker 4 (48:37):
So that's what we do. We we we for the pandemic.
We raised you know, about nine ten million dollars for
this one. We raised more than that and so that
the membership can survive. So that's I'm grateful that we
that our high earners were able to in the studios
and all we're able to step in and help.

Speaker 7 (48:57):
Us do that, because that's even when we think about.

Speaker 6 (49:02):
An invisible ache like and credit cards that are maxed
out and whatever has happened with your cousin and twitch
and the things we don't pressure without anyone knowing right
that we are feeling like we're going to explode inside
or we're going to lose everything.

Speaker 7 (49:21):
We're going to lose our house, we're gonna, you know,
lose our marriages.

Speaker 8 (49:25):
And so.

Speaker 6 (49:27):
What you're found, what the sag after a foundation is
doing is so important because it's giving relief.

Speaker 2 (49:33):
Right, it is sometimes people think you're on TV and
you're rich, right, you'll be okay, and that people don't
have sympathy or empathy for that. But to know that
there are people who are certainly job to job, check
to check, yeah, membership the majority exactly.

Speaker 1 (49:51):
So it's important to note.

Speaker 6 (49:52):
That absolutely, and the shame that some people who are
in front of the camera feel about letting someone know.
We talk about this and the invisible ache as well,
not do you hurt? We're not asking black boys and
men do you hurt? We're asking where does it hurt?

Speaker 7 (50:12):
Because it's not about do you know what? We know
you hurt.

Speaker 6 (50:16):
So the same thing you're saying about you know, people
in front of the camera, this isn't you know do
you need help?

Speaker 7 (50:24):
It's how can we help them?

Speaker 4 (50:26):
Right?

Speaker 6 (50:26):
Because we know you need it. I mean there are
those fifteen percent that may not, but in general, what
does it mean to let.

Speaker 7 (50:32):
People know, well, right right, we all need help.

Speaker 1 (50:36):
Yes, we do some of it.

Speaker 2 (50:37):
Yes, yes, well there you guys so much for coming
through the invisible ache.

Speaker 1 (50:43):
Courtney B.

Speaker 2 (50:43):
Vans and doctor Robin L. Smith just amazing to have
been able to read this. I highly recommend black men
identifying their pain and reclaiming their power. In particular Mana,
who is a very close their friend of mine. I
wanted to make sure, thank you so much he was
here for this. Ready, tell it meant a lot to you.

Speaker 7 (51:01):
Yeah, now I appreciate you, I really do.

Speaker 6 (51:04):
Yeah. I had this fantasy. You might say, oh, where's
she going? But no, but I had this fantasy when
you said about you know, not feeling that you have,
you know, the luxury, And I thought, what would it
mean when Courtney said about going outside last night? I'm
not going to do this, but you know, to take

(51:24):
your arm and for you and I to just walk
a half block together talking or not, you know what
I mean, maybe saying nothing, but what does it mean
to you know, whether it's walking with our dog or
walking by ourselves, or you and I want just a
half a block or just downstairs, not even outside but

(51:45):
in a way that says that your your heart matters,
and I see you.

Speaker 7 (51:52):
And you see me.

Speaker 2 (51:53):
You have time today, mano, because look he really really
wants to be in love it.

Speaker 10 (51:57):
But it's it's true, okay, right right, you know I'll
be playing with certain things like.

Speaker 1 (52:10):
I'll be throwing something out serious.

Speaker 7 (52:14):
Well, let me just say this.

Speaker 1 (52:15):
We do joke about what we mean exactly.

Speaker 7 (52:17):
We do joke in some in some way.

Speaker 1 (52:20):
Yeah, we're going to get through.

Speaker 6 (52:23):
No I have.

Speaker 7 (52:25):
I'm excited about you.

Speaker 8 (52:27):
Just the fact that you shared, you to share right
when they told me.

Speaker 5 (52:33):
First of all, he was reading some of the books
and she was reading off chapters and stuff.

Speaker 1 (52:36):
I was like, man, I listen to this because I
really wanted him to be here.

Speaker 3 (52:40):
I really believe in this, you know, you know, with
my background and and and not having outlets or not
feeling vulnerable enough to even look for outlets to deal
with some of the things that's going on.

Speaker 4 (52:57):
Right, But see when when when you come through this
and look, I'm gonna speak pathetically, it's already done.

Speaker 8 (53:04):
You gotta what a what a ministry?

Speaker 4 (53:06):
You have to be able to talk to people that
that that know you and be able to say, this
is what I was.

Speaker 8 (53:12):
That is what I came through. Come on, you can
come with really can you do it? You know?

Speaker 4 (53:17):
I mean it's that's why I said for me, I
thirty years ago. You know, I'm getting ready for I
was in prep for today.

Speaker 8 (53:28):
You know.

Speaker 4 (53:28):
So our children are eighteen. And if I hadn't done
the work, I wouldn't have been there for it. I
wouldn't have met Angela. But you know so I'm I'm
you in prep work for What's about that?

Speaker 7 (53:40):
Yeah?

Speaker 8 (53:41):
You know? So that's that's why I said. It's it's
it's life work.

Speaker 4 (53:45):
And you know, I mean, it's you know, you have
to do it, you know, because you know you don't
know what he's got planned for you.

Speaker 8 (53:53):
You got some you gotta get ready.

Speaker 1 (53:55):
You got Angela. That's what I heard. Wait would answer,
I appreciate you, appreciate you more. Thank you so much.

Speaker 6 (54:10):
Guys.

Speaker 8 (54:11):
What a