March 11, 2025 • 29 mins
This week, Theo looks to the future for the unhoused in America, and how to know your rights in an increasingly uncertain and hostile environment. He speaks with ACLU staff attorney Kath Rogers and Supervising Attorney for Tenants Rights at Inner City Law Kaimi Wenger about what you can do to protect yourself, and to remain educated, liberated, and motivated to move forward.
Learn more about Kath: https://www.aclusocal.org/en/biographies/kath-rogers
Learn more about Kaimi: https://innercitylaw.org/staff/
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Previously on Weedy in House.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I was just like, Oh, he's gonna tell us, you know,
oh all good, come on back, you know, it's all
other the fires out. He just looks at me and
he says, everything's gone. He had two go bags with them,
like emergency bags, right, just with essential stuff. Both of
them caught fire as he was running out the front door. Yeah,
he said, for a second he didn't think he was
going to, you know, make it out.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
So he's very lucky.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
From the seventh to the twenty first, we had over
two hundred and forty new people signing up on that
mailing list, which is thrilling. If we now have that
many more people who are going to get an email
from us, how do we create as much of an
opportunity for folks to actually engage and be on site
and meet their neighbors and see the big picture of
(00:48):
what is happening in why Sila exists.
Speaker 4 (00:59):
Welcome back to me House. I'm your host, Theo Henderson.
This episode will touch on many things, but here's what
I like you to pay particular attention to educate, liberate,
and motivate. We will revisit these ideas throughout the episode,
(01:20):
but first Unhoused News. I will open up this episode
of Unhoused News with a quote from Tony Morrison. The
function of freedom is to free someone else. Today's freedom
message is threefold. Educate, liberate, and motivate. Let's explore this
(01:44):
median house. Unhoused News aim was to educate the unhoused
community of the hostile house people. Violent law enforcement, and
cruel city leaders attempt to demonize and criminalize the unhoused community. Oftentimes,
as unhouse people, we are besieged at every turn, legal
(02:04):
and illegal to make their existence harder. A false veneer
of concern and subtle gas lighting brings up the rear
of solving houselessness from sight. My personal experiences with this
strategy leads to despair, self eviction, sometimes self medication, and
(02:25):
ultimately self harm. To give a medium for the young
house to be aware of draconian policies and sweep such
as the upcoming sweep of journalist Ruth Lesser, to elicit
aid in defense of their home, bear in mind. Mayor
Karen Bass continues sweeping the un housed community. During the
(02:48):
unprecedented fires in Los Angeles. Newly displaced members from the
fires need a North Star resource to free themselves as well.
Consider for a moment quote from the late Audrey Lord
that says, your silence will not protect you once you
have the first part down in your journey. Un House
(03:11):
news is the set of blaze under the young house community.
This portion of our message is deliberation portion. It's true
that not every unhoused person will create a podcast living
on the street such as I. But it is also
true that the unhoused community can be of service in
other ways, such as showing up to mutual aid events,
(03:33):
to volunteer, speak at city hall on their lived experience,
organize with their community on housing.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
And sweep demands.
Speaker 4 (03:41):
The last quote I will use from rodor Lord is
in our world, divide and conquer must become define and empower.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
At last we come to motivation.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
I would like to add two parts, self motivation and
community motor The fact of the matter is that this
is the most difficult of the three. How do you
stay self motivated when the chaos of the world doesn't
let up? Our current society bears witness of this cold heart.
Truth and justice is everywhere, and a lack of empathy
(04:16):
seems to throb and bleed all over our society. When
it comes to the unhoused, the propaganda machine is relentless
and blaming the vulnerable. Like a steamroller, it rolls all
over our society. However, Doctor King reminds us that true
piece is not merely the absence of tension. It is
the presence of justice. Thus it is important to remember
(04:40):
when self motivating and utilizing community motivation and use this
as a guiding compass. In conclusion, I will leave you
with a final quote from doctor King that sums it
up nicely. Nothing in all the world is more dangerous
than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. So let us educate, liberate,
(05:04):
and motivate. When we come back, we're going to carry
over this theme of our two guests, Kaf Rogers and
Kyamie win Gerls. Welcome back to Weedy and Howse. I'm
THEO Henderson. Earlier in this episode I introduced the theme
(05:29):
of educate, liberate, and motivate. There is no better example
of these principles than our next guests. Here's Kaf and Kye.
We have two special guests that we're going to do
two different topics, seemingly dissimilar but similar in many respects
in the studios or in the Zoom studios is cath
(05:51):
Rogers returning guest who who is so knowledgeable with the
ACLU as well as she was my also attorney as
well as you was also instrumental in getting out know
your rights. And I think this is the most opportune
time with things going in such a logjam and such
a flip some floatsome.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Type of world.
Speaker 4 (06:12):
We need to have that conversation repeatedly and so we
can offer some a way of grasping what the realities
are but also knowing that we have rights.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
And also our guest.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
Kayemi Webner and Kaimue Webner is an attorney himself, but
he deals with immigration rights.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Is that correct?
Speaker 5 (06:30):
I deal with tenant rights well. I defend low income
tenants who are at risk of becoming unhoused as there
to be evicted through the the shreiver program and the
State House LA program.
Speaker 4 (06:42):
We're going to get back to that because I would
love to get a little more expansion on that. But
what it was to get Kat fir Kat, what are
you seeing in the situation and how can we make
sure that do your rights is known?
Speaker 1 (06:54):
And third, what is no your.
Speaker 6 (06:55):
Rights well, yeah, thanks THEO. And I feel like this
is kind of like a continuing discussion that you and
I have had for many years, because, you know, for
a long time we've known that cities and counties are
criminalizing people, basically treating people as criminals just for being unhoused,
and that existed, you know, for many years. We saw
(07:16):
a huge increase in that in the nineteen nineties and
then of course you know, all to the present day.
But last year we saw a big uptick in that
when the Grant's Pass decision came down in June of
twenty twenty four, when the Supreme Court struck down an
Oregon law, or I'm sorry, did not strike down an
Oregon law. The Ninth Circuit had struck down an Oregon
(07:37):
law that made it illegal basically to be unhoused. The
Supreme Court, it went all the way up to the
Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court said it was not
cruel and unusual punishment to essentially criminalize someone for being unhoused.
And so after that Supreme Court decision, many cities and
counties have thought, well, we have impunity now to just
(07:58):
ticket people, arrest people, you know, treat people at criminals
just for being in house. But the fact is people
still do have rights. Unhoused people do have rights, have many,
you know, civil rights, statutory rights, and it's important to
remember that, and it's important for cities to remember this
is only one narrow Supreme Court ruling and there are
a lot of other rights at play here.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Thank you for succinctly speaking on it.
Speaker 4 (08:21):
One follow up question to that, It's also a conundrum
because even in the movement communities, we are really not
talking enough about it or really making enough hey to
get it across to the unhoused community, letting them know
the difference between Martin versus Boise, the difference between life
(08:41):
for Los Angeles like forty one eighteen, how those things
can be interwoven into how they criminalize, and also the
realities where unhoused people may need some help, A way
to have someone's I almost say the mouthpiece, but a
way to one has about as a mouthpiece, the second
as a way to empower them to know their own rights.
(09:05):
And three, how can we provide that kind of security
and safety for them, because cops are not going to
tell them that. And you know, if our movement communities
don't really know themselves or don't know or just like
this lumpet all it's just all the same. You know,
I think that's a bit fool hearty, but you know,
what is your insight on it.
Speaker 6 (09:24):
Yeah, that's a great point. And I think whenever we
do know your rights trainings, we say know your rights,
know your reality, right, So it's really important that we
all know our rights. It's also important to remember that
cops violate those rights on the daily right, so it's
important when you are exercising your rights. It's also important
to just be mindful and you know, use your best
(09:45):
judgment of how you feel safe and how you know
how to keep yourself safe, right, because sometimes you know,
speaking back to an officer can be a privilege, right,
you know, and you know there's a lot of positionality
at play when we are talking to officers, and so everybody,
you know, can use their best judgment on how to
stay safe because we know that officers violate people's rights
(10:07):
every single day violently. With that said, it's important to
just know some key understandings of what your rights are
when interacting with officers. So one thing to remember is
just you know, there's three basic types of interaction with police.
One is consensual, which is the conversation you and I
are having right now, like we are freely consenting to
(10:28):
have this conversation. Each of us could walk away at anytime,
and most of your interactions with cops are like that.
So a key phrase you want to know is am
I free to leave? And if the cops says yes,
I suggest getting away from the cops because talking to
police is never going to help you, It's only going
to hurt you. The second type of interaction is being detained,
(10:49):
which means you're not free to leave, but you're not
yet under arrest. So if you're being detained, I always
recommend don't answer police questions. The only thing that you
might want to do if you're being detained is, you know,
hand the police officer your ID because that may speed
up processing, you know, because they're going to try to
figure out who you are if you're being detained, So
(11:10):
just handing them your ID but remaining silent. You know,
you always have the right to remain silent. And then
the third type of interaction is an arrest. We all
know what that is. That's usually involves a booking, taking
a jail at things like that. So those are the
three types of interactions. But a couple of key phrases.
You know, am I free to leave? That's how you
know if you can just walk away or if you're
being detained arrested. Another key phrase is I do not
(11:33):
consent to a search. Police can ask you all day long,
Hey can I look in your bag? Can I look
in your tent? Can I look here? Can I do this?
I do not consent to a search. I do not
consent to a search. And just saying that calmly and
repeatedly to exercise your right. You've got it on record,
it's on their body cam. You know you're saying it calmly.
And if you are in custody and they're questioning you,
(11:56):
another key phrase is you know, I'm exerting my right
to remain silent. I'm not answering questions, and I want
a lawyer. And when you're in custody and they're asking
those questions, if you say I want a lawyer, they
have to stop questioning you. So that's why it's important
to exert, or to exercise rather your six Amendment right
to an attorney.
Speaker 4 (12:14):
Excellent succinctly put Kimi you're next. You mentioned a few
things that I was going to. Is what our audience
that don't know you say it Shriver's Is that correct?
Speaker 1 (12:24):
What is Shrivers?
Speaker 5 (12:25):
Sure? So, broadly speaking, eviction cases are civil cases, so
they are not criminal cases. And in most civil cases,
people don't have a right to an attorney. So as
a result, if you go back fifteen years in California,
you have ninety percent or more of tenants, low income
(12:45):
tenants not represented by attorneys, as landlords are coming in
with attorneys, and it's this incredibly uneven playing field. So
as a result, a state law is passed about fifteen
years ago. It's then funded through various mechanisms over the years.
But what that does is that puts some ability and
I refer to my job as sort of like being
(13:07):
a public defender in low income eviction cases. So the
Shriver Program is a state level program that funds attorney
services for eviction cases of low income individuals. In addition
to the Shriver program, so until twenty twenty, that was
the main way that people could get these free attorneys.
But in addition to that, the county and city have
(13:30):
combined for a program called Stay Housed lak So my
office gets referrals from both Shriver and stay Housed LA.
And so if an individual is served with an eviction notice,
you're sitting in your home, your landlord says you're laid
on the rent and they give you an eviction notice,
go to stay housed LA website and sign up and
(13:51):
say I've been served with this eviction I would like
an attorney. We do we check for income, we check
for conflicts, but other than that, we represent a large
number of low income tenants in eviction proceedings. Stayhouse LA
has a bunch of nonprofits that are working together on this.
Speaker 4 (14:10):
Have you noticed, because you're deeply entrenched in have you
noticed an uptick of evictions in light of the fires?
Do you see any causality or any kind of connection
if you will.
Speaker 5 (14:23):
Yes, I could pull the numbers off the top of
my head. So last year there were over fifty thousand
eviction cases filed in Los Angeles County, which is a
big increase from the prior year, which is a big
increase from the prior year. So we are seeing as
certain tenant protections have expired, there's been just large increases
(14:44):
in eviction cases filed. Currently My office isn't seeing a
lot of new cases from the fires, but I'm sure
they are going to be coming. There's a certain lag
time between an event and the eviction case being filed.
There's definitely stuff that I'm worried about, people who've been
displaced by the fires, and there are people who are
(15:07):
CouchSurfing on someone else's couch, and then there's the possibility
of a landlord serving papers on that person and saying
you have an unauthorized guest that's currently on pause for
a few months at the state level because of an
executive order. And then the city and county are discussing
and have put in place some county protections that are
(15:29):
going to put in place city protections, but they're discussing
and hammering it out. But in addition to that, we're
seeing that the housing market has tightened a lot because
you have what tens of thousands of people displaced, you
have a number of housing structures, thousands of housing structures destroyed.
LA was always a tough market, it's getting tougher. And
(15:51):
landlords are also increasing the rent in violation of Pinal
Code three ninety six price gouging, and we've seen a
lot of that.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
Which brings one last question, and then if I jump
to cath what are the consequences? Because I hear all
the time that they're not supposed to do these things,
but there's very little pushback from law enforcement or anyone
with authority to make sure that they don't do this.
It's like the people that are affected by are still
at the mercy of it. It's just like an empty
(16:18):
empty vessel, an empty law, if you will.
Speaker 5 (16:21):
So, Yeah, Historically three ninety six has not been enforced
much against the landlords. A couple of years ago, one
study found that it had been enforced twice in the
past year against the landlords. Now, just because the fires
are in the news so much, the state AG and
county and city DA are all saying we are going
(16:42):
to prosecute this. They have filed some cases already. We're
still seeing a ton of landlords just jacking up the
rent or trying to force tenants out for bogus reasons
because they think if I can kick out John Tennant
and Jane Tennant, I can find someone new a fire
refue and raise the price to rent to them. So
(17:03):
we're seeing a lot of that.
Speaker 4 (17:05):
Oh thank you, we'll be right back after a quick
break with Calf and Kaymi. Welcome back. This is THEO
Henderson with WII and House. Let's return to the riveteen
conversation with Calf and Kaymi. Kath you're next. One of
(17:26):
the things that I like that about annoy your Rights
is that this is something that's accessible for everyone. What
could for example, we talked a while ago about the
ability that if you run a file of the city
and they started taking your things or sweeping or as
a negative interaction, that there was a way to record,
(17:47):
be exchanged and to send it to a place that
ACLU has to be able to hold on to the
recording as the thing.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Can you explain that a little bit?
Speaker 6 (17:55):
Sure? Yeah, that is a powerful you know, documenting and
just being there at encampment removals and displacements, I think
is a really powerful form of activism. When we have,
you know, historically, like when I've trained legal observers, I'll
say there's two reasons why you observe. One is deterrence,
because even just the mere fact of showing up with
(18:17):
a video camera can deter law enforcement from violating rights.
So just if they see you there with your camera
you know, watching them. That can deter them from violating
someone's civil rights. I remember one time my camera ran
out of batteries, My phone ran out of batteries, and
I just still held it up like I was reporting,
because you want them to see you there with your camera.
So deterrence is huge. And then documenting and that documentation
(18:41):
can help prove that a police officer violates somebody's rights,
or maybe it will help show, you know that whatever
law enforcement did can help with a criminal defense case
or something like that, So that evidence can be really helpful.
If you are documenting, you want to make sure to
document the officer and what they're doing. Get you know,
try to get their badge number, their name on their badge.
(19:04):
You know. Focus you're filming on the officer, not on
the unhoused resident.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
And why is that good question?
Speaker 6 (19:11):
One reason would be, you know, just basic respect, you
especially if it's you know, not someone you know super well,
or you may not have their authorization to film them,
you know, just you know, respecting that they're perhaps you know,
in their home in a very stressful time. Also, from
a legal perspective, if someone you know was doing something
(19:31):
that may be in violation of some law, whether they're
you know, maybe standing in the street, jaywalking, whatever the
thing is, you may then incriminate them with that footage. So,
for a number of reasons, you don't want to film
unhoused folks, you know, in their homes. You don't want
to film activists, you know, without their consent and explicit permission.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
You know.
Speaker 6 (19:50):
Focus you're filming on the law enforcement when you're out there.
Another thing that you want to do when you're out
there is if you see an officer violating someone's rights,
get witness information. So look around, see who the witnesses are,
get their name, their their contact information, ask them if
they have any photos or videos, and follow up with them.
And then you just kind of want to write down
(20:11):
the who, what, when, where, how, exactly what happened. The
ACLU does have what's called the Mobile Justice App. You know,
anyone's welcome to upload and download that app. It's called
the Mobile Justice App, and that'll go to the ACLU.
There's also, you know, I know in LA there's different
activists have have collected footage over the years. I don't
know exactly, you know, who's collecting footage now, But in
(20:33):
whatever city you're in you want to make sure that
you're coordinating with other activists, coordinating with other people who
are documenting, so that that footage gets in the hands
of you know, activists, advocates, civil rights lawyers, so that
you can follow up and take action on that footage.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
I noticed that I don't see often disability lawyers because
there's a lot of times that disability laws are used
against then house people instead of use for them to help.
And I wonder if there's any kind of records for that,
because I've had some unhoused people express frustration with that.
Speaker 6 (21:04):
Yes, that's a great point THEO, and that's a great
point about how ADA laws are being used against people.
One thing I see all the time is cities talking
about how tents are impeding quote ADA access and yeah,
cities have kind of weaponized the ADA against unhoused people.
And it's so cynical and so cruel the way that
they're doing that, because many unhoused folks have disabilities, right,
(21:28):
whether it's a physical, mental health disability, whatever. And if
you didn't have mental health disabilities before you ended up
on the street, all the trauma and you know, just
all of all of that can add up to exacerbate
those disabilities. And so one really powerful right that we
all have is the right of what's called a reasonable
accommodation for disabilities. And so that's something that we can
(21:51):
all ask for and on house folks can ask for it.
Advocates can help people ask for reasonable accommodations. But basically,
the government has to provide reasonable accommodation in any program,
service activity that they provide, and that includes involuntary programs,
so that includes things like you know, what some people
(22:11):
call sweeps or displacements or encampment raids. They have to
provide accommodations the government does. So one powerful way that
you can advocate for your rights is asking for accommodations
that you need. So if you're in a wheelchair, for example,
you can't move as quickly, you can ask for more time,
You can ask for things that you need to comply
with the city's orders. Maybe you can't do that today,
(22:35):
maybe you can't you know, do it in this timeframe,
so you can ask for a reasonable accommodation. The limit
on that is, you know, it has to be quote reasonable, right,
so the city can push back and can offer, you know,
maybe a different accommodation that might meet your needs, but
you know they've they've got to respond, and that is
a right that you have under the ADA too to
ask for those accommodations that you need. And so that's
(22:56):
something I think we should use more than we do,
and I think that more advocates can look at, you know,
how can we enforce disability laws to make sure that
unhoused people with disabilities are protected?
Speaker 4 (23:11):
Well, said Kayimi, I have a question for you. And
then dealing with the tenants, you mentioned that there's some
lag time that's going on with the fires and things
like that. What things could be done to kind of
help people prepare themselves because there's going to be evictions,
there's going to be higher rants. I mean, it is inevitable.
(23:34):
And one of the things recently on one of my
Unhoused news segments, I pointed out that the extension from
FEMA to stay in some of the hotels are slowly
coming to the end, which is very similar to when
unhoused people get into these hotels and then they ask
them what their long term housing plant. Now it's a
(23:54):
shock to these newly displaced people, and you know, maybe
they had these other view used about how house people are,
but now they're into the successful where all the other
house people are dealing with this reality and what can
we say to them or what can we do or
is there anything to say to them?
Speaker 5 (24:13):
That's a great question, and I think like it highlights
several things. Like first, and I'll just say this is
this is something we all know. But I think like
this is something which probably a set of individuals are
coming to realize for the first time, which is that
unhouse people are people. And I think that it's it's
(24:33):
sad that it takes this sort of crisis for many
people to realize that. But I think you're absolutely right
that there are folks who were sitting in their comfortable
homes a month ago and now are not and are thinking,
oh my god, like this, I'm now an unhealth person,
and that is relatedly forcing them to realize that everyone
(24:53):
deserves dignity, and everyone deserves respect, and everyone deserves legal protections.
So I think like that's to the extent I don't
want to say anything good, but to the extent that
there can be any positive aspects, like the extent to
which it creates more empathy and more understanding is definitely
something that could come out of this. As to the
(25:15):
evictions that are to come, I mean we saw with COVID.
Anytime that there's a disaster, there are landlords who are
salivating to take advantage of it, and some of the
most vulnerable, well, some of the most targeted individuals are
(25:35):
individuals in long term rent controlled tendencies. Because you get
someone who's been in an apartment for thirty years, they're
in Koreatown, but they're paying six hundred dollars a month
because it's been rent controlled. That landlord is salivating to
get them out. And I am expecting to see a
wave of bogus quote lease violations like oh, you sneezed
(25:58):
it too loud. I had one client who has been
sued in eviction court seven times. I mean we've defeated
every one of them, but just landlord keeps coming back
because she's long term rent control. So I think that
there are going to be landlord seeking to exploit this
to get long term rent control tenants out. I think
(26:18):
there's going to be like, this is just me predicting
the future, this is not anything official. I think there's
going to be landlords who seek to exploit safety and
be like, well, John Tennant, Jane Tennant, who happened to
be long term rent control. I need to add more
fireproofing to the place, so I'm going to evict you
under substantial renovation. And well, I guess I just happened
(26:39):
to kick out a long term rent control tenant and
can triple the rent now, so I'm expecting to see
bad faith attempts to evict using the fires as an excuse.
Speaker 4 (26:49):
Oh my goodness, I didn't think about it that quay.
Oh wow, I think we've got the gist of what
I wanted to cover. Is there anything that I'm missing?
Kat Okay, I please up in and set me straight.
Speaker 6 (27:02):
I don't think so. I think the only just to
kind of put a bow on it for Kaimi, you know,
the for the tenants, like if there are people who've
been impacted by the fires, you know, go to Stay
Housed la dot org because then you can get legal support,
legal help. And for folks who are expressing their rights,
you know, just remember that you never have to talk
(27:23):
to the cops. Never answer their questions. Don't talk to
the cops. I am I am exercising my right to
silence officer when others.
Speaker 5 (27:32):
Super pick thing which is deadlines are super fast in
eviction court. If you are sued with an eviction case,
you have ten days to respond before the court can
default you. So people set aside, Oh I don't want
to deal with this piece of paper or get to
it next week. Don't do that. Go to Stay House
LA right away. Get that legal response in right away
so you don't get defaulted. A lot of people's rights
(27:53):
get lost when they don't respond soon enough and get defaulted.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
Oh wow, you've educated me as well on these things,
and I appreciate it, and I know my listeners are
as well. Thank you all, Kayimi and Cap for taking
the time to explain to us and introduce ourselves again.
And they said, okay, if I ask you guys again
to come onto the show to keep us abreast on
what's going on and maybe you know new things, you
(28:20):
are going to jump out of.
Speaker 6 (28:21):
The woodwork always yep.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (28:27):
Thank you again to Kaf and Kayimi for graciously talking
with us. If you'd like to follow their work, you
can find them at the links in the description. Last
another episode of Wadian House has gone by. If we
invite you, if you have a story, to share, Please
reach out to me at Weidionhouse at gmail dot com
(28:49):
or widian House on Instagram. But that may we again
meet in the light of understanding. Whedian House is a
production of iHeartRadio. It is written, posted, and created by
me Theo Henderson, our producers Jbie Loftus, Kailey Fager, Katie Ficial,
(29:09):
and Lyra Smith. Our editor is Adam Wand and our
local art is also by Katie Ficial.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Thanks for listening.
Previously on Weedy in House.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I was just like, Oh, he's gonna tell us, you know,
oh all good, come on back, you know, it's all
other the fires out. He just looks at me and
he says, everything's gone. He had two go bags with them,
like emergency bags, right, just with essential stuff. Both of
them caught fire as he was running out the front door. Yeah,
he said, for a second he didn't think he was
going to, you know, make it out.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
So he's very lucky.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
From the seventh to the twenty first, we had over
two hundred and forty new people signing up on that
mailing list, which is thrilling. If we now have that
many more people who are going to get an email
from us, how do we create as much of an
opportunity for folks to actually engage and be on site
and meet their neighbors and see the big picture of
(00:48):
what is happening in why Sila exists.
Speaker 4 (00:59):
Welcome back to me House. I'm your host, Theo Henderson.
This episode will touch on many things, but here's what
I like you to pay particular attention to educate, liberate,
and motivate. We will revisit these ideas throughout the episode,
(01:20):
but first Unhoused News. I will open up this episode
of Unhoused News with a quote from Tony Morrison. The
function of freedom is to free someone else. Today's freedom
message is threefold. Educate, liberate, and motivate. Let's explore this
(01:44):
median house. Unhoused News aim was to educate the unhoused
community of the hostile house people. Violent law enforcement, and
cruel city leaders attempt to demonize and criminalize the unhoused community. Oftentimes,
as unhouse people, we are besieged at every turn, legal
(02:04):
and illegal to make their existence harder. A false veneer
of concern and subtle gas lighting brings up the rear
of solving houselessness from sight. My personal experiences with this
strategy leads to despair, self eviction, sometimes self medication, and
(02:25):
ultimately self harm. To give a medium for the young
house to be aware of draconian policies and sweep such
as the upcoming sweep of journalist Ruth Lesser, to elicit
aid in defense of their home, bear in mind. Mayor
Karen Bass continues sweeping the un housed community. During the
(02:48):
unprecedented fires in Los Angeles. Newly displaced members from the
fires need a North Star resource to free themselves as well.
Consider for a moment quote from the late Audrey Lord
that says, your silence will not protect you once you
have the first part down in your journey. Un House
(03:11):
news is the set of blaze under the young house community.
This portion of our message is deliberation portion. It's true
that not every unhoused person will create a podcast living
on the street such as I. But it is also
true that the unhoused community can be of service in
other ways, such as showing up to mutual aid events,
(03:33):
to volunteer, speak at city hall on their lived experience,
organize with their community on housing.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
And sweep demands.
Speaker 4 (03:41):
The last quote I will use from rodor Lord is
in our world, divide and conquer must become define and empower.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
At last we come to motivation.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
I would like to add two parts, self motivation and
community motor The fact of the matter is that this
is the most difficult of the three. How do you
stay self motivated when the chaos of the world doesn't
let up? Our current society bears witness of this cold heart.
Truth and justice is everywhere, and a lack of empathy
(04:16):
seems to throb and bleed all over our society. When
it comes to the unhoused, the propaganda machine is relentless
and blaming the vulnerable. Like a steamroller, it rolls all
over our society. However, Doctor King reminds us that true
piece is not merely the absence of tension. It is
the presence of justice. Thus it is important to remember
(04:40):
when self motivating and utilizing community motivation and use this
as a guiding compass. In conclusion, I will leave you
with a final quote from doctor King that sums it
up nicely. Nothing in all the world is more dangerous
than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. So let us educate, liberate,
(05:04):
and motivate. When we come back, we're going to carry
over this theme of our two guests, Kaf Rogers and
Kyamie win Gerls. Welcome back to Weedy and Howse. I'm
THEO Henderson. Earlier in this episode I introduced the theme
(05:29):
of educate, liberate, and motivate. There is no better example
of these principles than our next guests. Here's Kaf and Kye.
We have two special guests that we're going to do
two different topics, seemingly dissimilar but similar in many respects
in the studios or in the Zoom studios is cath
(05:51):
Rogers returning guest who who is so knowledgeable with the
ACLU as well as she was my also attorney as
well as you was also instrumental in getting out know
your rights. And I think this is the most opportune
time with things going in such a logjam and such
a flip some floatsome.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Type of world.
Speaker 4 (06:12):
We need to have that conversation repeatedly and so we
can offer some a way of grasping what the realities
are but also knowing that we have rights.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
And also our guest.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
Kayemi Webner and Kaimue Webner is an attorney himself, but
he deals with immigration rights.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Is that correct?
Speaker 5 (06:30):
I deal with tenant rights well. I defend low income
tenants who are at risk of becoming unhoused as there
to be evicted through the the shreiver program and the
State House LA program.
Speaker 4 (06:42):
We're going to get back to that because I would
love to get a little more expansion on that. But
what it was to get Kat fir Kat, what are
you seeing in the situation and how can we make
sure that do your rights is known?
Speaker 1 (06:54):
And third, what is no your.
Speaker 6 (06:55):
Rights well, yeah, thanks THEO. And I feel like this
is kind of like a continuing discussion that you and
I have had for many years, because, you know, for
a long time we've known that cities and counties are
criminalizing people, basically treating people as criminals just for being unhoused,
and that existed, you know, for many years. We saw
(07:16):
a huge increase in that in the nineteen nineties and
then of course you know, all to the present day.
But last year we saw a big uptick in that
when the Grant's Pass decision came down in June of
twenty twenty four, when the Supreme Court struck down an
Oregon law, or I'm sorry, did not strike down an
Oregon law. The Ninth Circuit had struck down an Oregon
(07:37):
law that made it illegal basically to be unhoused. The
Supreme Court, it went all the way up to the
Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court said it was not
cruel and unusual punishment to essentially criminalize someone for being unhoused.
And so after that Supreme Court decision, many cities and
counties have thought, well, we have impunity now to just
(07:58):
ticket people, arrest people, you know, treat people at criminals
just for being in house. But the fact is people
still do have rights. Unhoused people do have rights, have many,
you know, civil rights, statutory rights, and it's important to
remember that, and it's important for cities to remember this
is only one narrow Supreme Court ruling and there are
a lot of other rights at play here.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Thank you for succinctly speaking on it.
Speaker 4 (08:21):
One follow up question to that, It's also a conundrum
because even in the movement communities, we are really not
talking enough about it or really making enough hey to
get it across to the unhoused community, letting them know
the difference between Martin versus Boise, the difference between life
(08:41):
for Los Angeles like forty one eighteen, how those things
can be interwoven into how they criminalize, and also the
realities where unhoused people may need some help, A way
to have someone's I almost say the mouthpiece, but a
way to one has about as a mouthpiece, the second
as a way to empower them to know their own rights.
(09:05):
And three, how can we provide that kind of security
and safety for them, because cops are not going to
tell them that. And you know, if our movement communities
don't really know themselves or don't know or just like
this lumpet all it's just all the same. You know,
I think that's a bit fool hearty, but you know,
what is your insight on it.
Speaker 6 (09:24):
Yeah, that's a great point. And I think whenever we
do know your rights trainings, we say know your rights,
know your reality, right, So it's really important that we
all know our rights. It's also important to remember that
cops violate those rights on the daily right, so it's
important when you are exercising your rights. It's also important
to just be mindful and you know, use your best
(09:45):
judgment of how you feel safe and how you know
how to keep yourself safe, right, because sometimes you know,
speaking back to an officer can be a privilege, right,
you know, and you know there's a lot of positionality
at play when we are talking to officers, and so everybody,
you know, can use their best judgment on how to
stay safe because we know that officers violate people's rights
(10:07):
every single day violently. With that said, it's important to
just know some key understandings of what your rights are
when interacting with officers. So one thing to remember is
just you know, there's three basic types of interaction with police.
One is consensual, which is the conversation you and I
are having right now, like we are freely consenting to
(10:28):
have this conversation. Each of us could walk away at anytime,
and most of your interactions with cops are like that.
So a key phrase you want to know is am
I free to leave? And if the cops says yes,
I suggest getting away from the cops because talking to
police is never going to help you, It's only going
to hurt you. The second type of interaction is being detained,
(10:49):
which means you're not free to leave, but you're not
yet under arrest. So if you're being detained, I always
recommend don't answer police questions. The only thing that you
might want to do if you're being detained is, you know,
hand the police officer your ID because that may speed
up processing, you know, because they're going to try to
figure out who you are if you're being detained, So
(11:10):
just handing them your ID but remaining silent. You know,
you always have the right to remain silent. And then
the third type of interaction is an arrest. We all
know what that is. That's usually involves a booking, taking
a jail at things like that. So those are the
three types of interactions. But a couple of key phrases.
You know, am I free to leave? That's how you
know if you can just walk away or if you're
being detained arrested. Another key phrase is I do not
(11:33):
consent to a search. Police can ask you all day long,
Hey can I look in your bag? Can I look
in your tent? Can I look here? Can I do this?
I do not consent to a search. I do not
consent to a search. And just saying that calmly and
repeatedly to exercise your right. You've got it on record,
it's on their body cam. You know you're saying it calmly.
And if you are in custody and they're questioning you,
(11:56):
another key phrase is you know, I'm exerting my right
to remain silent. I'm not answering questions, and I want
a lawyer. And when you're in custody and they're asking
those questions, if you say I want a lawyer, they
have to stop questioning you. So that's why it's important
to exert, or to exercise rather your six Amendment right
to an attorney.
Speaker 4 (12:14):
Excellent succinctly put Kimi you're next. You mentioned a few
things that I was going to. Is what our audience
that don't know you say it Shriver's Is that correct?
Speaker 1 (12:24):
What is Shrivers?
Speaker 5 (12:25):
Sure? So, broadly speaking, eviction cases are civil cases, so
they are not criminal cases. And in most civil cases,
people don't have a right to an attorney. So as
a result, if you go back fifteen years in California,
you have ninety percent or more of tenants, low income
(12:45):
tenants not represented by attorneys, as landlords are coming in
with attorneys, and it's this incredibly uneven playing field. So
as a result, a state law is passed about fifteen
years ago. It's then funded through various mechanisms over the years.
But what that does is that puts some ability and
I refer to my job as sort of like being
(13:07):
a public defender in low income eviction cases. So the
Shriver Program is a state level program that funds attorney
services for eviction cases of low income individuals. In addition
to the Shriver program, so until twenty twenty, that was
the main way that people could get these free attorneys.
But in addition to that, the county and city have
(13:30):
combined for a program called Stay Housed lak So my
office gets referrals from both Shriver and stay Housed LA.
And so if an individual is served with an eviction notice,
you're sitting in your home, your landlord says you're laid
on the rent and they give you an eviction notice,
go to stay housed LA website and sign up and
(13:51):
say I've been served with this eviction I would like
an attorney. We do we check for income, we check
for conflicts, but other than that, we represent a large
number of low income tenants in eviction proceedings. Stayhouse LA
has a bunch of nonprofits that are working together on this.
Speaker 4 (14:10):
Have you noticed, because you're deeply entrenched in have you
noticed an uptick of evictions in light of the fires?
Do you see any causality or any kind of connection
if you will.
Speaker 5 (14:23):
Yes, I could pull the numbers off the top of
my head. So last year there were over fifty thousand
eviction cases filed in Los Angeles County, which is a
big increase from the prior year, which is a big
increase from the prior year. So we are seeing as
certain tenant protections have expired, there's been just large increases
(14:44):
in eviction cases filed. Currently My office isn't seeing a
lot of new cases from the fires, but I'm sure
they are going to be coming. There's a certain lag
time between an event and the eviction case being filed.
There's definitely stuff that I'm worried about, people who've been
displaced by the fires, and there are people who are
(15:07):
CouchSurfing on someone else's couch, and then there's the possibility
of a landlord serving papers on that person and saying
you have an unauthorized guest that's currently on pause for
a few months at the state level because of an
executive order. And then the city and county are discussing
and have put in place some county protections that are
(15:29):
going to put in place city protections, but they're discussing
and hammering it out. But in addition to that, we're
seeing that the housing market has tightened a lot because
you have what tens of thousands of people displaced, you
have a number of housing structures, thousands of housing structures destroyed.
LA was always a tough market, it's getting tougher. And
(15:51):
landlords are also increasing the rent in violation of Pinal
Code three ninety six price gouging, and we've seen a
lot of that.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
Which brings one last question, and then if I jump
to cath what are the consequences? Because I hear all
the time that they're not supposed to do these things,
but there's very little pushback from law enforcement or anyone
with authority to make sure that they don't do this.
It's like the people that are affected by are still
at the mercy of it. It's just like an empty
(16:18):
empty vessel, an empty law, if you will.
Speaker 5 (16:21):
So, Yeah, Historically three ninety six has not been enforced
much against the landlords. A couple of years ago, one
study found that it had been enforced twice in the
past year against the landlords. Now, just because the fires
are in the news so much, the state AG and
county and city DA are all saying we are going
(16:42):
to prosecute this. They have filed some cases already. We're
still seeing a ton of landlords just jacking up the
rent or trying to force tenants out for bogus reasons
because they think if I can kick out John Tennant
and Jane Tennant, I can find someone new a fire
refue and raise the price to rent to them. So
(17:03):
we're seeing a lot of that.
Speaker 4 (17:05):
Oh thank you, we'll be right back after a quick
break with Calf and Kaymi. Welcome back. This is THEO
Henderson with WII and House. Let's return to the riveteen
conversation with Calf and Kaymi. Kath you're next. One of
(17:26):
the things that I like that about annoy your Rights
is that this is something that's accessible for everyone. What
could for example, we talked a while ago about the
ability that if you run a file of the city
and they started taking your things or sweeping or as
a negative interaction, that there was a way to record,
(17:47):
be exchanged and to send it to a place that
ACLU has to be able to hold on to the
recording as the thing.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Can you explain that a little bit?
Speaker 6 (17:55):
Sure? Yeah, that is a powerful you know, documenting and
just being there at encampment removals and displacements, I think
is a really powerful form of activism. When we have,
you know, historically, like when I've trained legal observers, I'll
say there's two reasons why you observe. One is deterrence,
because even just the mere fact of showing up with
(18:17):
a video camera can deter law enforcement from violating rights.
So just if they see you there with your camera
you know, watching them. That can deter them from violating
someone's civil rights. I remember one time my camera ran
out of batteries, My phone ran out of batteries, and
I just still held it up like I was reporting,
because you want them to see you there with your camera.
So deterrence is huge. And then documenting and that documentation
(18:41):
can help prove that a police officer violates somebody's rights,
or maybe it will help show, you know that whatever
law enforcement did can help with a criminal defense case
or something like that, So that evidence can be really helpful.
If you are documenting, you want to make sure to
document the officer and what they're doing. Get you know,
try to get their badge number, their name on their badge.
(19:04):
You know. Focus you're filming on the officer, not on
the unhoused resident.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
And why is that good question?
Speaker 6 (19:11):
One reason would be, you know, just basic respect, you
especially if it's you know, not someone you know super well,
or you may not have their authorization to film them,
you know, just you know, respecting that they're perhaps you know,
in their home in a very stressful time. Also, from
a legal perspective, if someone you know was doing something
(19:31):
that may be in violation of some law, whether they're
you know, maybe standing in the street, jaywalking, whatever the
thing is, you may then incriminate them with that footage. So,
for a number of reasons, you don't want to film
unhoused folks, you know, in their homes. You don't want
to film activists, you know, without their consent and explicit permission.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
You know.
Speaker 6 (19:50):
Focus you're filming on the law enforcement when you're out there.
Another thing that you want to do when you're out
there is if you see an officer violating someone's rights,
get witness information. So look around, see who the witnesses are,
get their name, their their contact information, ask them if
they have any photos or videos, and follow up with them.
And then you just kind of want to write down
(20:11):
the who, what, when, where, how, exactly what happened. The
ACLU does have what's called the Mobile Justice App. You know,
anyone's welcome to upload and download that app. It's called
the Mobile Justice App, and that'll go to the ACLU.
There's also, you know, I know in LA there's different
activists have have collected footage over the years. I don't
know exactly, you know, who's collecting footage now, But in
(20:33):
whatever city you're in you want to make sure that
you're coordinating with other activists, coordinating with other people who
are documenting, so that that footage gets in the hands
of you know, activists, advocates, civil rights lawyers, so that
you can follow up and take action on that footage.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
I noticed that I don't see often disability lawyers because
there's a lot of times that disability laws are used
against then house people instead of use for them to help.
And I wonder if there's any kind of records for that,
because I've had some unhoused people express frustration with that.
Speaker 6 (21:04):
Yes, that's a great point THEO, and that's a great
point about how ADA laws are being used against people.
One thing I see all the time is cities talking
about how tents are impeding quote ADA access and yeah,
cities have kind of weaponized the ADA against unhoused people.
And it's so cynical and so cruel the way that
they're doing that, because many unhoused folks have disabilities, right,
(21:28):
whether it's a physical, mental health disability, whatever. And if
you didn't have mental health disabilities before you ended up
on the street, all the trauma and you know, just
all of all of that can add up to exacerbate
those disabilities. And so one really powerful right that we
all have is the right of what's called a reasonable
accommodation for disabilities. And so that's something that we can
(21:51):
all ask for and on house folks can ask for it.
Advocates can help people ask for reasonable accommodations. But basically,
the government has to provide reasonable accommodation in any program,
service activity that they provide, and that includes involuntary programs,
so that includes things like you know, what some people
(22:11):
call sweeps or displacements or encampment raids. They have to
provide accommodations the government does. So one powerful way that
you can advocate for your rights is asking for accommodations
that you need. So if you're in a wheelchair, for example,
you can't move as quickly, you can ask for more time,
You can ask for things that you need to comply
with the city's orders. Maybe you can't do that today,
(22:35):
maybe you can't you know, do it in this timeframe,
so you can ask for a reasonable accommodation. The limit
on that is, you know, it has to be quote reasonable, right,
so the city can push back and can offer, you know,
maybe a different accommodation that might meet your needs, but
you know they've they've got to respond, and that is
a right that you have under the ADA too to
ask for those accommodations that you need. And so that's
(22:56):
something I think we should use more than we do,
and I think that more advocates can look at, you know,
how can we enforce disability laws to make sure that
unhoused people with disabilities are protected?
Speaker 4 (23:11):
Well, said Kayimi, I have a question for you. And
then dealing with the tenants, you mentioned that there's some
lag time that's going on with the fires and things
like that. What things could be done to kind of
help people prepare themselves because there's going to be evictions,
there's going to be higher rants. I mean, it is inevitable.
(23:34):
And one of the things recently on one of my
Unhoused news segments, I pointed out that the extension from
FEMA to stay in some of the hotels are slowly
coming to the end, which is very similar to when
unhoused people get into these hotels and then they ask
them what their long term housing plant. Now it's a
(23:54):
shock to these newly displaced people, and you know, maybe
they had these other view used about how house people are,
but now they're into the successful where all the other
house people are dealing with this reality and what can
we say to them or what can we do or
is there anything to say to them?
Speaker 5 (24:13):
That's a great question, and I think like it highlights
several things. Like first, and I'll just say this is
this is something we all know. But I think like
this is something which probably a set of individuals are
coming to realize for the first time, which is that
unhouse people are people. And I think that it's it's
(24:33):
sad that it takes this sort of crisis for many
people to realize that. But I think you're absolutely right
that there are folks who were sitting in their comfortable
homes a month ago and now are not and are thinking,
oh my god, like this, I'm now an unhealth person,
and that is relatedly forcing them to realize that everyone
(24:53):
deserves dignity, and everyone deserves respect, and everyone deserves legal protections.
So I think like that's to the extent I don't
want to say anything good, but to the extent that
there can be any positive aspects, like the extent to
which it creates more empathy and more understanding is definitely
something that could come out of this. As to the
(25:15):
evictions that are to come, I mean we saw with COVID.
Anytime that there's a disaster, there are landlords who are
salivating to take advantage of it, and some of the
most vulnerable, well, some of the most targeted individuals are
(25:35):
individuals in long term rent controlled tendencies. Because you get
someone who's been in an apartment for thirty years, they're
in Koreatown, but they're paying six hundred dollars a month
because it's been rent controlled. That landlord is salivating to
get them out. And I am expecting to see a
wave of bogus quote lease violations like oh, you sneezed
(25:58):
it too loud. I had one client who has been
sued in eviction court seven times. I mean we've defeated
every one of them, but just landlord keeps coming back
because she's long term rent control. So I think that
there are going to be landlord seeking to exploit this
to get long term rent control tenants out. I think
(26:18):
there's going to be like, this is just me predicting
the future, this is not anything official. I think there's
going to be landlords who seek to exploit safety and
be like, well, John Tennant, Jane Tennant, who happened to
be long term rent control. I need to add more
fireproofing to the place, so I'm going to evict you
under substantial renovation. And well, I guess I just happened
(26:39):
to kick out a long term rent control tenant and
can triple the rent now, so I'm expecting to see
bad faith attempts to evict using the fires as an excuse.
Speaker 4 (26:49):
Oh my goodness, I didn't think about it that quay.
Oh wow, I think we've got the gist of what
I wanted to cover. Is there anything that I'm missing?
Kat Okay, I please up in and set me straight.
Speaker 6 (27:02):
I don't think so. I think the only just to
kind of put a bow on it for Kaimi, you know,
the for the tenants, like if there are people who've
been impacted by the fires, you know, go to Stay
Housed la dot org because then you can get legal support,
legal help. And for folks who are expressing their rights,
you know, just remember that you never have to talk
(27:23):
to the cops. Never answer their questions. Don't talk to
the cops. I am I am exercising my right to
silence officer when others.
Speaker 5 (27:32):
Super pick thing which is deadlines are super fast in
eviction court. If you are sued with an eviction case,
you have ten days to respond before the court can
default you. So people set aside, Oh I don't want
to deal with this piece of paper or get to
it next week. Don't do that. Go to Stay House
LA right away. Get that legal response in right away
so you don't get defaulted. A lot of people's rights
(27:53):
get lost when they don't respond soon enough and get defaulted.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
Oh wow, you've educated me as well on these things,
and I appreciate it, and I know my listeners are
as well. Thank you all, Kayimi and Cap for taking
the time to explain to us and introduce ourselves again.
And they said, okay, if I ask you guys again
to come onto the show to keep us abreast on
what's going on and maybe you know new things, you
(28:20):
are going to jump out of.
Speaker 6 (28:21):
The woodwork always yep.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (28:27):
Thank you again to Kaf and Kayimi for graciously talking
with us. If you'd like to follow their work, you
can find them at the links in the description. Last
another episode of Wadian House has gone by. If we
invite you, if you have a story, to share, Please
reach out to me at Weidionhouse at gmail dot com
(28:49):
or widian House on Instagram. But that may we again
meet in the light of understanding. Whedian House is a
production of iHeartRadio. It is written, posted, and created by
me Theo Henderson, our producers Jbie Loftus, Kailey Fager, Katie Ficial,
(29:09):
and Lyra Smith. Our editor is Adam Wand and our
local art is also by Katie Ficial.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Thanks for listening.
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On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.