October 7, 2021 • 48 mins
In this episode, we have a candid and racy conversation with advertising executive turned entrepreneur Cindy Gallop who calls herself the "Michael Bay of Business." Cindy is the Founder and CEO of Make Love Not Porn and at the forefront of the sextech industry.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Sam Edis and I'm Amy Nelson. Welcome to
What's Her Story? With Sam and Amy. This is a
show about the world's most remarkable women, their professional and
personal journeys. Together, we'll hear from gold medalists, best selling authors,
and leaders of the world's most iconic brands. Today, we're
(00:24):
thrilled to welcome advertising executive turned entrepreneurs Cindy Gallup. She
calls herself the Michael Bay of business and as a
founder and CEO of the startup Make Love Not Born.
All right, Cindy, you call yourself the Michael Bay of business.
What do you mean by that? So my tagline came
(00:46):
about many years ago when I was in a meeting
with a bunch of potential consultancy clouds and I was
explained to them what my approach to consulting was. So
I said to them, you know all, I consult very actively,
only for clients and brands who want to change the
game in their particular sector. So you come to me
(01:07):
for radical, innovative, groundbreaking, transformative. I don't do status quo.
And then completely off the cuff, I went nightheartedly. I
like to blow shut up. I'm the Michael Bayer's business,
and everybody laughed in the meeting, and I left the
meeting and I thought, actually, that's a really good way
to sumwhat what I do. So I've been using that
(01:30):
line ever since. But my use of it is not
just a bit a whimsy or a bit of creativity,
a bit of fun. I use it entirely deliberately because
I'm a great believer in be your own filter. So
when I characterize what I do in that way, it
attracts to me the people who want what I do.
(01:52):
It repels the ones who don't, And I want to
repel the ones who don't because they are a waste
of time, effort, and money. For many years, you were
in pre America, you were at the top of the
average housing industry, and you made this enormous shift into
entrepreneurial you know, endeavors. So how did that come about?
I think a lot of people dream of doing it,
(02:12):
but few have their guts to do it. To be honest,
how that came about was kind of by accident. And
everything in my life and career has happened by accident.
You know, I have never consciously intentionally planned anything. So basically,
back in two thousand and five, I had my very
own personal midlife crisis in the sense that I'd always
(02:36):
thought of forty five as kind of a midlife point. Obviously,
by the way and the happy assumption one lives to
me ninety fingers crossed, But I've always thought then the
couple years running up to it, you know, on one's
forty five birthday is the moment when you should pause,
take stock, reflect and review where have I been? Where
am I going? All of that good stuff? And so
(02:58):
On February one, two thousand five, my forty fifth birthday,
I duly did that, and that's the point in which
I went, oh, my god, I've just worked sixteen years
for the same advertising agency, now wonderful agency. I love
them to death, Bartle bogil heckaty BBH. I cannot say
enough nice things about them. I've worked for them in London.
(03:21):
I'd helped to start up the Age of Pacific office
in Singapore. I'm here in New York because I moved
here in ninety eight to open up their American office
for them. But the years have flown by, and all
of a sudden, you know, there was had been sixteen
years and I went oh my god, I think it
might be time to do something different. And the problem
(03:42):
then was that I hadn't the faintest idea what because
I have always said to people, you know, I'm not
gonna work in advertising forever. I'm not gonna work BH forever.
But advertising is a very good industry to work in
to find out what you want to do next, because
you've come into contact with so many different industry sectors,
(04:03):
you know, client companies, interesting people, different media and so
I guess you know. I'd always thought that my next
big thing would one day bubble up from the EFA,
and there I was, at the age of forty five
and it hadn't. So vast amounts of thought and angsting ensued,
and eventually I went, if I want to review every
(04:26):
possible option open to me for what is effectively the
second half of my life, maybe the best thing to
do is to put myself on the market very publicly
and go, okay, guys, here I am what you got
and see what comes. So I took a massive leap
into the unknown. I resigned as chairman of bb H
New York in the summer of two thousand and five,
(04:48):
without a job to go to and it was the
best bloody thing that I ever did in my life
because I am now evangelical about working for yourself, because
too many people think that a job is the safe option.
It's not, because in a job you are at the
(05:09):
complete mercy of management changes, industry downturns, marketplace dynamics. I
always say, whose hands would you rather place your future in?
Those are a large corporate entity who out then the
day doesn't give a shit about you, or somebody who
will always have your best interests at heart. I E. You,
(05:30):
So you quit without a job, and then what happened?
So then, I mean, I was very lucky because the
moment it was publicly known that I was on the market,
tons of things came to me, the vast majority of
which I would never have thought of myself. And so
I went, Okay, I'm going to be employment slut. I'm
(05:53):
going to talk to everybody because I still don't know
what I want to do. So I am going to
take every meeting. I'm going to do every call, every interview,
no preconceived notions. You know, even when I thought, you know,
I'm really not sure I want to go and work
for this company, I would still go and take the meeting.
And so I am marked on this fascinating exploratory which
(06:13):
was as good for telling me what I didn't want
to do as what I did want to do, because
I would come out of an interview of a meeting
and I would go, okay, so now I know in
fifteen million years, no wonder that. And so it was
just a very good way of helping me understand, you know,
(06:34):
what needed to be in place for whatever I did next,
you know, which which ended up basically being working for
myself because while I was doing this, I began working
as a consultant, you know, to support myself. I began,
you know, doing speaking engagements, and you know, my my
startups you know, came along by accident. But I did
begin working for myself. And and in fact, I remember
(06:58):
this moment of revelation because was that four in two
thousand and five, I had booked a speaking gig, so
I was doing a talk at an entertainment conference in
l A. But I had this moment of revelation because
I've done a lot of public speaking while I was
the CEO of BBH New York. But this was the
(07:19):
moment when I went Oh my god, I can now
say whatever I want to say, because because historically, you know,
my speaking was constrained by you know, I had to
make sure that I was articulating the agency's agenda. I
had to make sure I didn't say anything that would
piss any of our clients off. And I remember that
(07:41):
moment when I went, oh my god, I can get
up on that stage and I can say whatever the
hell I want because I had I have, I have
a ton of my own ideas, and I went, wow,
I can now just talk about what I think about
the digital future, which is what I think is this
conference is all about. And and that was, you know,
a real moment of revelation in terms of what it
(08:03):
meant to be a free agent and work for yourself.
And and actually the the other moment of revelation. So
you know, there I was doing various consulting gigs and
I had this scheduling nightmare because I was working as
a consultant on retainer to the Japanese ad agency Hacka Hodo,
(08:24):
and they had a number of people who were coming
into New York from Tokyo and and wanted to do
a big meeting with me at the same time. I've
begun working for this very interesting client confidential in Europe,
and they wanted me at a crucial meeting in London,
like on the same day, and and so I was going,
(08:46):
oh my god, what do I do? And and then
I had another moment revelation, which was Okay, so this
is incredibly stressful, but it's all your own stress, because
it's entirely up to me how I sought this out.
I don't have some big boss above me going well, Cindy,
you better den you know whatever. And and as it happened,
(09:08):
it all worked out because I basically did the meeting
with the hacka holda guys on a Thursday in New York.
I went straight to Jeff care, I caught the red
eye to London. I landed at Heathrow in the morning,
I went straight to a hotel where the European client was.
I did the presentation there. I went back to Heathrow,
caught a flight back to New York, and made it
(09:30):
late to my pre birthday dinner that evening. But I
was back in New York in time my birthday party
the following day. So it all worked out. So keep
from two thousand five you land make love not corn
at ted. What was your relationship with like sex before
you launched your company. I'm half English, half Chinese. My
(09:52):
father was English, my mother's Chinese. And I'm telling you
that because basically, as are a sexless concerned I had
a very repressed upbringing. Also also I grew up in Asia,
I grew up in Brunei, and so my parents never
talked about sex. I mean, zero sex education. Everything that
(10:12):
I learned I learned from reading books, basically, um and
and and so you know, the only thing my mother
ever said to me and my three sisters was girls,
you stay virgin to be married. But that was the
extent of the instruction basically. And did it happen, absolutely not.
But but but but actually, I mean, I mean that
(10:33):
got in my head for for many years. And so
I basically, you know, went off to university. I went
to Oxford, you know, had boyfriends, didn't awful lot of everything,
but you know, as you do in those days. And
then you know, when I finally had sex relatively late,
I think, you know, as twenty one, I went, oh
my god, this is bloody wonderful, you know. And and
(10:55):
so I think you know, because of my upbringing and
because of my my background. You know, I think that
that just made me think, you know, that the sex
is something to be celebrated and to be very open about.
You know. But but but that was pretty much the
extent of it, you know, until you know. I launched
Make Love Not Porn in the world responded, So tell
(11:15):
us more about the latch, like, how did this company
come to way? So per what I was saying earlier,
make Love Not Porn was a complete and total accident.
So I date younger men, the tent men in their twenties,
and and just throughout audience, I will contextualize that by
saying that I am somebody who has never wanted to
(11:36):
be married. I have never wanted children, very happy that
I always knew that as opposed to finding out the
hard way by having them. I adore being single. I
cannot wait to dialone. And I date younger men casually
and recreationally for sex. And I'm deliberately very open about
all of that because we don't have enough role models
(11:58):
in our society, okay for women and by the way,
for men that demonstrate you can live your life very
differently to the way that people expect you to and
still be amazingly happy. And I'm one of the happiest
people I know. So there was dating younger men and
this this would have been something like thirteen fourteen years ago,
when I began realizing through dating younger men that I
(12:22):
was encountering what happens when two things converge, and I
stressed the dual convergence because most people think it's only
one thing. I realized I was experiencing what happens when
today's total freedom of access to hardcore porn online meets
our society is equally total reluctance to talk openly and
(12:43):
honestly about sex. When those two factors converge, porn becomes
sex education by default, in not a good way. And
so I found myself encountering a number of sexual behavioral
means in bed. I went, WHOA, I know where that
behaviors coming from. I thought, Gosh, if I'm experiencing this,
(13:04):
other people must be as well. I didn't know that
because four years ago nobody was talking about this, nobody's
writing about it. This was me an isolation as a
naturally action oriented person, going I'm going to do something
about this. So um, twelve years ago, I put up
on no Money, a tiny, clunky website at make Love
(13:26):
Not Porn dot com that, in its original iteration was
just words. The construct was porn world versus real world.
Here's what happens in the porn world, here's really happens
in the real world. I had the opportunity to launch
it at TED. I've been going to TED for many years,
and I became, therefore, in two thousand nine, the only
(13:47):
TED speaker to say the words come on my face
on the TED stage six times in succession. The talk
went viral as a result, and it drove this extraordinary
globe response to my tiny website that I had never anticipated.
Thousands of people wrote to me from every country in
(14:09):
the world, young and old, male and female, straight and gain,
pouring their hearts out, telling me things about their sex
lives and their porn watching habits they've never told anybody before.
And I realized I'd uncovered a huge global social issue,
and so I then felt I had a personal responsibility.
(14:31):
I had to take make Love Not Porn forwards in
a way that would make it much more far reaching, helpful,
and effective. But I also saw an opportunity to do
what I believe in very strongly, which is that the
future of business is doing good and making money simultaneously.
I saw the opportunity for a big business solution to
(14:52):
this huge, untapped global need. And I used the word
big advisably, by the way, because even then, twelve years ago,
at con such stage, I knew if I wanted to
counter the global impact of porn as default sex said,
I would have to come up with something that at
least had a potential one day to be just as mass,
(15:14):
just as mainstream, and just as all pervasive in our
society as porn currently is. And so what I decided
to do was I always emphasize, you know, make Louve
loop porn is not anti porn, because the issue isn't porn.
The issue is that we don't talk about sex in
the real world. If we did, amongst many other benefits,
(15:36):
people would be able to bring a real world mindset
when they view what is simply performative produced entertainment. And
so our tagline and make love not porn is pro
sects pro pawn, pro knowing the difference, and our mission
is one thing only, which is to help make it
easier for every single person in the world to talk
(15:57):
openly and honestly about sex. And so what I did,
very simply was I took every dynamic in social media
and applied them to this one area no other social
networkal platform will allow in order to socialize sex and
to make real world sex and talking about it socially
acceptable and therefore oftenly just as socially shareable is anything
(16:20):
else we share on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, you know, Reddit, Tumbler.
And so nine years ago, my tiny team and I
launched a make Love look porn dot tv, which is
an entirely user generated, crowdsourced video sharing platform that celebrates
real world sex. So anybody from anywhere in the world
(16:42):
can submit to us videos are themselves having real world sex.
But we're very clear what we mean by this. We
are not poorn, we are not amateur. We are building
a whole new cathrey on the Internet that has never
before existed. So short sets and so our competition isn't porn.
(17:04):
It's Facebook and YouTube, or rather it would be if
they allowed you to socially sexually self express, which they don't.
And so social sex videos on make Love not porn,
are not about performing for the camera They're simply about
doing what we all already do on every other platform,
in every other air of life, which is capture what
(17:24):
goes on in the real world as it happens, spontaneously,
in all its funny, messy, wonderful, comical, beautiful, awkward, hilarious
human nous. We curate to make sure of that. I
designed to Make Love not Porn around what everybody else
should have nobody else did human curation. There is no
(17:46):
self publishing of anything on Make Love Not Porn. Our
curators watch every single video submitted from beginning to end
before we approve or direct and publishing. And we have
a revenue sharing business model, which I designed to democratis
access to income. So our members paid a subscribe, rent
and stream social sex videos. Half the income goes to
(18:06):
our contributors, who we call our Make Love Not Porn stars.
And so we're pioneering what we call the social sex revolution.
The revolutionary part isn't the sex, it's the social So
you were like the first person to allow creators to
monetize on a social media platform. No, I foresaw the
creator economy twelve years ago. Absolutely, and in fact, when
(18:30):
we launched nine years ago and I reduced that business
model with a blog post and I titled the blog
post how make Love Not Paorn can help the global economy,
And I began it by saying, you know all those
little scam ads that pop up in the exect all
the time going make two thousand dollars a week working
from home, Well now you can. And in the post
(18:51):
I said, our aim is to one day hit the
kind of critical mass where your make love not Porn
video gets a million rentals at five dollars parental and
we give you half that income. Now We're a very
long way off that, by the way, but I'm happy
to say that during the pandemic, our make lovelock porn
stars like everyone else, they've lost their jobs, can't find work.
(19:12):
They tell us that our monthly payouts have helped and
keep going paid their rent. You know, some of them
are living off those alone, which is wonderful. But yes,
I foresaw the creator economy before anybody else did, and
I built a safe, legal, consensual platform for sharing a
real world sex years before only fans had the same idea.
(19:33):
And now, for a quick break, how do you spread
the word? Given how reluctant people are to talk about sex.
The answer is in the first instance, with extreme difficulty,
but for a different reason, Sam, because I have to
tell you and our audience that since we launched Make
Love Loo Porn dot TV nine years ago, we have
(19:55):
had nothing but a positive reaction all around the world
because we are transformative. As an utterly unique venture, we
have an uther unique capability. We have the power to
change people's sexual attitudes and behavior for the better in
all sorts of amazing ways. Um, the only challenges I've
had are in the business and financial world, but they
(20:18):
are massively business growth inhibiting because and by the way,
I have no idea of this until I embarked on
building Make Love not Porn. We fight a battle every
day to keep make Love and Porn alive. Essentially because
every piece of business infrastructure any other tech startup takes
for granted. We can't. The small print always says no
(20:40):
adult content, and I mean this is all placed across
every area of the business. I can't get funded, I
can't get banked. Make Up Porn is a no risk
venture in a high risk of what is deemed the
high risk category because we we can vouch for every
piece of content on our platform in a way that
nobody else does, but especially Samda it's your question. One
(21:01):
of the most frustrating things is we can't advertise. We
are banned from advertising on Facebook, Instagram. Read it, I
mean read it by the way I ask you Twitter.
But it's not just us. A audience needs to know
that this is massively gendered. Any female lens Sexual Health
and Wellness Venture cannot advertise either. Menstruation Ventures can't advertise
(21:26):
on Facebook and Instagram, Menopause Ventures can't have a Fertility
Ventures can't advertise. However, male sexual Health and Wellness Ventures,
erect our dysfunction solutions come on in They're all over
the place, and so in terms of how we spread
the word, we have to rely about them constantly trying
to break down these barriers all the time. But we
have to rely on two things. The first one is
(21:49):
media coverage um and so the one benefit of being
a controversial ventures that we get ongoing media coverage all
around the world without doing one single bit of media
or pr outreach. Dress as well can afording. And the
interesting thing there is that whenever we're covered in any
country in the world, that country, no matter how tiny
rockets to be number two in traffic our the US,
(22:11):
and if it's a big country, it becomes number one
in traffic, you know. I mean a few years ago
somebody wrote about us in Serbia, minuscule number two in traffic.
That summer, we're written about in Switzerland, you know, number
two in traffic. And because squid game is very popular,
I want everyone to know that last year one of
the biggest newspapers in South Korea wrote about make love
(22:33):
not porn. But by the way, we have no idea
these pieces are coming out. I mean, they find us
make up, you know, and I woke up two. South
Korea's our number one source of traffic, accounting for fifty
of it. That is how much people want us when
they find out what we are. If porn is the
Hollywood movie, we are the real world documentary and the
(22:54):
world is desperate for it. And by the way, without funding,
we're not translated, we can not leverage that traffic. South
Korea is one of those countries where, unfortunately, people don't
tend to read and write English, you know, and and
so huge bounce off rate unfortunately. And then the second thing,
and this is also interesting in terms of how much
the World Wants US is organic search. Every day all
(23:17):
around the world, people search for make love not porn
without knowing that we exist. And what I mean by
that is that the top organic search terms that drive
traffic to us are make love not porn, real sex
not porn, make love not poor. Where they don't know
there's adventure that that's called that. One young man told
(23:38):
me that he found us when he googled porn that
is not porn because he was so fed up with
everything out there he wanted something different, had no idea
what to search for. When you google porn that is
not porn, you find make love not porn. But that
gives you some idea of how media responsive and therefore
advertising responsive we are. The World wants the world has
(23:59):
a massive knee for what we deliver. And so I'm
setting out to raise a serious round of funding, the
spool that I hope will enable me to overcome those bearers, because,
by the way, trust me, those advertising barriers fall when
you're running big enough check with serious funding, I can
absolutely get in there. Have you noticed in your conversations
(24:21):
with users of the saite and from the men you date,
that porn not make love, not porn, but porn itself
has changed how people have sex well. So so first
of all, you know, I am my own research lab.
This is why I started Make Love Not Porn. I'm
very open about the fact that I date young men
casual recreation. I date a lot, a lot of them,
(24:42):
by the way, pre pandemic. You know, my is now
down to one and I hastened to add. But I
see for myself all the time exactly how this plays
out in the real world. And that torrent of emails
and I got twelve years ago has never stopped. You know,
every day the right to us from thank us the
make Love Not Porn plus on make Love Not Porn
(25:04):
dot Tv. We now have the most amazing comments and
I make Love not Porn styles at all ages. But
you know, in the same way that you know years ago,
when I launched make Love Not Porn dot com and
it was just porn world versus real world, one young
man wrote me and said, I've learned more about sex
from your site than any sex education in school. And
(25:25):
and today, you know, one young man left a comment
on one of our make Love Not Porns love videos
where he said, I'm so happy I found you you know,
this is my very first time watching Making Love. All
I've watched is porn. I'm sick of it. This is
just wonderful. I love you guys. But let me just
explain what I mean when I say we're transformative, because
(25:46):
it's not just the revelation, it's the social benefits that
our unique window onto real world sex spring. And by
the way, these benefits are especially apposite given the Facebook
whistleblower and the hearings happening at the moment, because social
sex on Make Love, not porn, is enormously reassuring, because
(26:09):
we celebrate real world everything, real world bodies, real world hair,
real world penis size, real world breast size. And the
reason that's so important is because you can talk body
positivity all you like, you can preach self love till
you're blue in the face. At the end of the day.
(26:32):
Nothing makes us feel great about our own bodies like
seeing people who are those idea of aspiracial body types
getting turned on by each other, desiring each other, having
an amazing time in bed. Our mantras everybody is beautiful
when they're having real world sex, and they really are.
And this is so crucial because as you know all
(26:53):
around us. Every day in popular culture, we are sent
messages that we are not sexually desirable and this we
are this skinny six pack abs look like this. Our
members write to us and tell us that we have
made them feel better about their own bodies. One man
wrote and said, my girlfriend and I now feel able
to be more open and central with each other because
(27:15):
your videos made each of us feel better about our
own bodies. And in fact, we have a number of
make Love Not Porn stars, so we are all inclusive
with many solo make Love Notop porn stars who have
shared masturbation videos, often by the way, for the first
time ever, the vast majority of our contributors had never
ever filmed themselves doing anything sexual before. Ever, they're doing
(27:37):
it for us because they believe in our mission, and
so we we have a number of make Love Lup
poul stars, like one woman who joined us just a
few weeks ago. We published a first video where she said,
all my life, I've been told my revolvers growth, it's ugly,
it's too big, it's too and I'm sick of it,
and so I decided to share this is the first
(27:57):
time I've done this. I decided to share a video
of myself masturbating on Make Love Not Porn because I
think my volve was gorgeous and I want to know
what you guys think. And our community is wonderful, I mean, honestly,
the pylon of affirmation and love and compliments. I mean,
she was just blown away by that. And so we
are a completely safe space in which you discover that
(28:21):
what makes you incredibly sexually attractive as you, it's you,
and your body is the manifestation of you in the
real world, and it's incredibly sexy because it's yours and
then and then the other thing. We also celebrate real
world emotion, love, intimacy, feelings. And the reason that's crucial
(28:41):
is because all around us in popular culture, we see
many creative expressions and narratives of relationships, but we never
see the actual sex. On Make Love Not Porn, you
see the actual sex, but you also see the relationships
because in our videos those two things are indivisible. And
(29:02):
by the way, I don't just mean that. In our
partnered couple threesome videos, you know you see amazing, loving,
healthy relationship dynamics. In our solar videos, you see what
it's like to have a healthy relationship with yourself, with
your own sexuality, with your own body, with your own genitals.
You know. One man wrote to us about a video
he wrote to the Make Love Not Bored stars. He
(29:23):
said the sex that video was incidental. I want what
you guys have. I saw the way look shove up.
I saw the way your eyes met. I hope one
day I can meet someone i'll have that with. We
get very moving emails. Well, Cindy, I want to talk
about that because it's interesting the way you talk about
your own social life. Right, you broadcast the fact that
you date younger men and you're not interested in relationship,
(29:46):
You're not interesting getting married, you're not interested in having kids.
Yet you talk about one of the best things about
your state being the fact that it does draw out
relationships and the emotion behind this sex. So how do
you just about that? Sure? So I absolutely have relationships,
they're just not everybody else's idea of relationships. So I
(30:08):
meet the younger men I date on cougar dating sites.
I applaud the rise of the niche dating side, where
everyone knows exactly whether they're and I have one fundamental criterion,
no matter how casual the relationship. They have to be
a very nice person. I have fantastic radar of very
nice people, and as a result, I only date utterly
(30:31):
lovely younger men in an atmosphere of mutual trust, respect, affection,
and liking. And so ironically, my so called casual relations
go on a lot longer than most people, so called
committed ones. I date younger men off and on over
periods of two, three, four, five, ten, fifteen years. They
may go on to date girls or an agent. They
(30:53):
may get married. We like each other, We stay friends.
I'm friends with a ton of them on Facebook, you know.
And and we will meet platonically for coffee or drinks.
And then every so often those relationships end, those marriages end,
they come back, and it's very nice and and so
it's not what the world thinks of as a conventional relationship,
but those are very rewarding relationships and quite profound ones,
(31:15):
both for me and for them, you know, Amy and
I and a lot of our friends will look upon
a man who says I only date younger women and
kind of look down on him for that. It's very
unusual to hear a woman say it. And so my
initial reaction is is it a double standard that we're
not saying, oh, that's terrible that Cindy is basically not
(31:38):
interested in men her own aid. Well, actually, I think
it's the other way around some because, to be frank,
in our society, older man, younger woman nobody bats an
elid fact of life. Okay, you know some people that
make criticized, but broadly speaking, that man is celebrated as
a hero, he's got some fantastic arm candy. Older than
(32:00):
younger man way less acceptable, much more vilified. And so again,
part of what I'm doing is champion this relationship model
to encourage people to equalize perceptions of both. I mean,
I happen to think that you should design the relation
the works for you, you know what, whatever that may be.
(32:20):
And and actually, by the way that model changes the
different stages in your life depending on what you feel
you want. In fact, even I who champed the station model,
I am gob snacked on couber dating sites by the
vast numbers of younger men who want to date old women.
And when I say date, by the way, I mean
date not just to have sex, where they actually want relations.
But we're not as aware of that because again, I've
(32:43):
encountered younger men who were terrified their friends and family
would find out they liked older women. And I've encountered
the younger men who are very who are very happy
to be seen out with me, meet my friends, etcetera.
But our society has somehow made it more embarrassing, you know,
to be an older woman young the man dating each
other than the other way around, which I think is outrageous.
(33:03):
So I'm out to equalize that ship. Do you think
there is something in your background that media have an
aversion to getting married and having kids? No? No, I
mean my parents had the happiest marriage going. I mean,
my father died a couple of years ago, but they
were married for sixty years. My mother has been grief
stricken ever since. Honestly, I would say there are far
(33:27):
more people who would feel like me if they stopped
and thought about it, because unfortunately, many people, you know,
live their lives in oiled grooves and in the fear
of what other people will think. There are many people
living lives they don't want to live, in marriages they
don't really want to be, in having children they didn't
(33:48):
necessarily want to have because of fear of what other
people would think they did the socially acceptable thing. Again,
why I believe in being very vocal about the fact
there is a different way, because I would really like
so many people just stop and think about what would
really make them happy and to really tease out do
you want children because you really want children? Or do
(34:12):
you want chidren because your mother's on your back about it?
All your friends are having them. And somebody published the
other day, not not to long ago, a study of
you know, many parents who have said that with the
benefit of hindsight, they would not have had children. Obviously
they love the children they have, you know, but there
are many people who would have chosen not to have
(34:34):
children have had an understanding of everything that it entailed.
You know. It's very interesting about you, Cindia, is that
you're not only inspirational in business and you're always getting
women to negotiate and pursue their dreams, but you also
have this entirely other thread which is inspiration personally, What
would you say to someone who's listening who feels personally
(34:57):
stuck in a relationship? So, you know, I think I
would say the same thing that I say to anybody
who feels stuck in any situation. And this is very
much a personal philosophy of mine. It's also one by
the way that I design to make love not porn
around as well, because with one's in startup you get
to design all your own beliefs and values and plosses
(35:18):
into it. But I believe that everything in life starts
with you and your values. And so I say to people,
if you if you've ever done this exercise, just take
a long, hard look into yourself and identify what you
stand for, what you believe in, what you value because
(35:39):
when you do that, that makes life so much simpler.
Life still throws at you all the ship you always will,
but you know exactly how to respond to that ship
in any given situation in a way that is true
to you. And by the way, that is the secret
of happiness, living your life and working your work in
a way that is true to you. And so if
(36:00):
you're stuck in a relationship, honestly, you know, identify your
values and ask yourself, is a relationship delivering on my
values and what I believe in, what I stand for?
Because if it's not, you know you want to get
the hell out basically, and instentally, just to make you
aware of what I mean when I say are designed
(36:20):
to make love not porn around this because this may
also a bearing on the question. I ready ask people
this question, what are your sexual values? And nobody can
ever answer me because we're not taught to think like that.
Our parents bring us up to have good manners, a
work ethic, a sense of responsibility, accountability. Nobody ever brings
(36:45):
us up to behave well in bed, but they should
because in bed values like empathy, sensitivity, generosity, kindness, honestly
respect are as important as those values are in every
other air of our lives where we're actively taught to
(37:08):
exercise them. And so what we do and make love
not porn is we role model good sexual values and
good sexual behavior. And by the way, that's why we
are so massively relevant in the era of me Too,
because right now, quite rightly, everybody is talking about consent.
Everybody is writing about consent, Lots of thoughtful, nuanced, insightful
(37:31):
think pieces out there about consent. Here's the problem, nobody
knows what consent actually looks like in bed. The only
way you educate people as to what is great consensual,
communicative sex, good sexual values and good sexual behavior is
by watching people actually having that kind of sex and
(37:53):
make love. Loop Porn is the only place on the
Internet where we can do that. Every one of our
videos is an object lesson in consent communication, good sexualized
and behavior. We are literally sex education through real world demonstration.
And so that's what I mean about everything in life
starts with you and your values, including your sexuality and
(38:14):
your sex life and how you operate in bed. And
now for a quick break. The other day, one of
the moms at school said, how do you talk to
your kid about porn? And it's that's the wrong question.
The question is how do you talk to your kid
about real sex and about what that should look like
and what porn is in relation to that, right, I mean,
(38:38):
that's what you're sort of teaching us today, is Indy exactly.
And actually, because it may be helpful for our listeners,
I will give you the two pieces of lice I
give every parent because parents and teachers have been writing
to us since day one of Making Love not born,
as you can imagine. And so the two key things are.
Number one, you cannot begin talking to your child about
(39:00):
sex too early. And when I say that, I don't
mean literally talk about sex. What I mean is the
very first time your child arsena babies come from, you know,
touches their genitals. The most important thing isn't even what
you say to them as much as how you say it.
Never ever get visibly embarrassed, Never get flustered, never you know,
(39:21):
change the topic, leave the room instead, just calmly, straightforwardly
answer them honestly and truthfully, and you will open up
a channel of communication between them and you that will
be there for the rest of their lives. And then
the second piece of vice I give is today, sadly,
when you talk to your child about sex, you must
(39:43):
also now talk to your child about porn. And it's
a lot easier to do this, the most parents realize,
because all you do is you say a version of
what I'm about to tell you, and you diale it
up or down, depending on the edge of the child.
So you go, so done. We've just talked about sex.
And you know how together we watch movies and videos
(40:04):
and cartoons where things happen that aren't real. Well, there
are also movies and videos about sex and they're not
real either, and because of that, they can be quite confusing,
and so we would rather you didn't watch them till
you're older. But if anybody ever shows you anything like that,
(40:24):
or you stumble across it, come and talk to us.
We can explain it. And that is literally all you
have to say, because you have done two very important things.
First of all, you've set up in their minds when
they stumble across porn, as they sadly will, it's not real.
And secondly, you have encouraged them to come and talk
(40:46):
to you about it, and you will want them to
do that because what somebody shows them on a phone
in the playground, what they stumble across in the neighbor's
house can be utterly traumatizing. I love it, Sam, Should
we go to the speed around? All right? Aim? Do
you want to take it away? What do you do
at night after you're finished working? Oh? Very simple? Read
(41:10):
in bed and so you know I'm I'm a big reader.
I'm also, by the way, very conscious of that thing
about you should not be looking at the screen right
up until you go to sleep, because it's not going
to help you sleep. So one of my great pleasures
is just lying in bed with a good book. And
I hugely enjoy that. That's one of my favorite pleasures too.
(41:31):
And I know another one of your favorite pleasures is
your cocktails. What is your favorite cocktail? That's an easy one,
Greg and smart, tiny, straight up with a twist, very dry,
with a glance in the direction of the roof bottle.
Uh opposite end of the day. What's your morning routine?
So I actually get up very early, and that's not
(41:55):
an intentional thing, is to deal with the fact that
this is less so in the pandemic. But now I've
resumed international travel because I'm I'm now you know, trying
to get over to London regular see my eight eight
year old mother who was over there because I didn't
see for one and a half years in the pandemic.
So um um, this this is kind of triggered by
jet lag. But you know, I'm in the habit of
(42:17):
going to bed early and correspondingly waking up very early.
And so I wake up usually around five thirty or six,
and I just love that time of day. You know,
I love watching dawn break. I mean, sadly, you know,
the mornings are now getting really dark, which is depressing. Um,
but you know I love, you know, making a cup
(42:37):
of coffee, you know, getting stuck into my emails, you know,
the muse and so on, while the world is still
waking up around me. And so I really enjoy being
an early riser. Yeah, I call that the magic hour.
When you're at ahead of everyone else. It's really a
good feeling. And also I'm very lucky here in the
sky apartment, which obviously our listeners can't see, but I
(42:58):
have stunning views, and so as dawn breaks, that also
just really enhancers all of it. Where's this story behind
this guy apartment? So the sky Partment is my home.
It's the hashtag and the name I gave to my apartment.
So I've found this by operating my New York real
estate philosophy of always go looking for what nobody else wants,
(43:21):
because the only way to have a nicer part, to
afford a nice apartment in New York is to buy
a ship hole and renovate it and so and so
I basically rate street easy looking for what nobody else wanted,
And I found the listing for the sky part, which
spoke to me for two reasons that had would have
(43:42):
had everybody else running fifty marks in the opposite direction.
And by the way. They clearly had been on the
market for eight months. No abort it. Reason number one
zero photographs of the apartment on the listing. I went great,
it's a ship hole, clearly, clearly so bad that they
you know, they couldn't even cheat a tiny corner photographically
(44:03):
borne out by point number two. The copy said bring
your vision and your architect. I went great, total ship
So I called my broker. I went to go and
say it this one. So he called out. The broker
makes an appointment, comes back, says, okay, we're going on
this day at this time. Then he said, oh, and
by the way, Cyndy, just so you know, the other
brokers said to me, I hope your client has a
(44:26):
lot of imagination. So he goes, She's got nothing but imagination.
But I'm going loving these vibes. This listing was talking
my language. So on your point to day, we meet
the sproken the lobby of a very tall, long descript
building on Fifth Avenue in Midtown, and she says to
us before we go up, let me just prepare you.
(44:47):
So I'm thinking this is getting better and better. So
she says, this building was built thirty years ago. The
developer built it built on the roof side by side
to penthouses, their triplexes, penthouse, a penthouse. B said, we're
going to go and see penthouse and penthouse is lived
in by a hoarder and intelligent catching shack part because
(45:10):
I was thinking bargain, bargain, bargain, and she said, let
me tell you, it was way worse than we first
saw it. At least he's now cleared paths of the stuff.
You can vaguely see inside the rooms. And I'm just thinking,
all my Christmass come at once. So the broker is
obviously very startled at the fact that I'm completely unfazed
at hearing this. As they go up in the elevator,
(45:31):
she says to me, people with vision come here, they
lose their vision instantly. So if some idea how bad
it was by the fact that she was under selling
every step. With the front door, so I walked into
an apartment that was piled high with stuff. I mean,
you couldn't see a thing behind it, and also it
had not been maintained in thirty odd years. There were
(45:53):
holes in the walls, the windows are covered in ship
but behind it I saw a triplex penthouse on of
the avenue with stunning views, three terraces, and a vast
amount of outdoor space, and I went, this is my apartment,
and because everybody else ran screaming. It was a total
bargain for Manhattan. But it required a full on gut
(46:15):
renovation of everything, which thank goodness, we finished just before
the pandemic. And so in lockdown I had at least
views an outdoor space, which made a huge difference. But
that is hashtag the sky Apartment. So Loui is here.
He's been listening to our conversation and he comes in
with a male perspective, and be quick, I'm gonna ask
(46:37):
the question that a lot of people are proud of thinking,
how is it having sex with a with a person
that's in their twenties verses a person that would be
like your age. Well, you know, obviously, because as I've said,
I'm not a relationship person. I'm not looking for a
relationship and I am looking for sex. Um, you know,
the difference is quite frankly, lots of stamina and very
(46:59):
short recovery areas, and certainly I'm not I'm not going
to get that with a man my age. Thank you
so much, Sandy for joining us today. It was an
absolute pleasure. And can I say to our listeners if
you liked what you heard, please do support us by
going to Make Love Not Porn dot tv. Do sign
up for a subscription. They start at ten dollars a month,
(47:19):
so they're em'tly affordable. Do consider becoming a Make Love
Not Porn star? You can be anonymous by the way,
where mass spaces and shadow out of frame, about about
half our mak Love Not Porn Star community, you know,
trims to be anonymous. And and also by the way again,
because we operate unlike anybody else on the internet. You know,
the moment you want your videos down, we delete them instantly,
(47:41):
so everything is under your control. But our Make Love
Not Porn stars tell us that socially sharing their real
world sex on Make Love Not Porn has been as
transformative for them and their relationships as socially sharing everything
else has been for the world at large. Well, I
think it's safe to say we could have tacked us
Sindy for five more hours. Sound. I really liked Cindy
(48:03):
before the interview, but now I love her. She is awesome.
Thanks for listening to What's her Story? With Sam and
Amy We would so appreciate if you would leave a
review wherever you get your podcasts, and of course connect
with us on social media at What's Her Story podcast.
What's Her Story with Sam and Amy is powered by
my company, The Riveter at The Riveter dot c o
(48:26):
in Sam's company, park Place Payments at park place payments
dot com. Thanks to our producer Stacy Para, our social
media manager Phoebe crane Fest, and our male perspective Blue
Burns
Hi, I'm Sam Edis and I'm Amy Nelson. Welcome to
What's Her Story? With Sam and Amy. This is a
show about the world's most remarkable women, their professional and
personal journeys. Together, we'll hear from gold medalists, best selling authors,
and leaders of the world's most iconic brands. Today, we're
(00:24):
thrilled to welcome advertising executive turned entrepreneurs Cindy Gallup. She
calls herself the Michael Bay of business and as a
founder and CEO of the startup Make Love Not Born.
All right, Cindy, you call yourself the Michael Bay of business.
What do you mean by that? So my tagline came
(00:46):
about many years ago when I was in a meeting
with a bunch of potential consultancy clouds and I was
explained to them what my approach to consulting was. So
I said to them, you know all, I consult very actively,
only for clients and brands who want to change the
game in their particular sector. So you come to me
(01:07):
for radical, innovative, groundbreaking, transformative. I don't do status quo.
And then completely off the cuff, I went nightheartedly. I
like to blow shut up. I'm the Michael Bayer's business,
and everybody laughed in the meeting, and I left the
meeting and I thought, actually, that's a really good way
to sumwhat what I do. So I've been using that
(01:30):
line ever since. But my use of it is not
just a bit a whimsy or a bit of creativity,
a bit of fun. I use it entirely deliberately because
I'm a great believer in be your own filter. So
when I characterize what I do in that way, it
attracts to me the people who want what I do.
(01:52):
It repels the ones who don't, And I want to
repel the ones who don't because they are a waste
of time, effort, and money. For many years, you were
in pre America, you were at the top of the
average housing industry, and you made this enormous shift into
entrepreneurial you know, endeavors. So how did that come about?
I think a lot of people dream of doing it,
(02:12):
but few have their guts to do it. To be honest,
how that came about was kind of by accident. And
everything in my life and career has happened by accident.
You know, I have never consciously intentionally planned anything. So basically,
back in two thousand and five, I had my very
own personal midlife crisis in the sense that I'd always
(02:36):
thought of forty five as kind of a midlife point. Obviously,
by the way and the happy assumption one lives to
me ninety fingers crossed, But I've always thought then the
couple years running up to it, you know, on one's
forty five birthday is the moment when you should pause,
take stock, reflect and review where have I been? Where
am I going? All of that good stuff? And so
(02:58):
On February one, two thousand five, my forty fifth birthday,
I duly did that, and that's the point in which
I went, oh, my god, I've just worked sixteen years
for the same advertising agency, now wonderful agency. I love
them to death, Bartle bogil heckaty BBH. I cannot say
enough nice things about them. I've worked for them in London.
(03:21):
I'd helped to start up the Age of Pacific office
in Singapore. I'm here in New York because I moved
here in ninety eight to open up their American office
for them. But the years have flown by, and all
of a sudden, you know, there was had been sixteen
years and I went oh my god, I think it
might be time to do something different. And the problem
(03:42):
then was that I hadn't the faintest idea what because
I have always said to people, you know, I'm not
gonna work in advertising forever. I'm not gonna work BH forever.
But advertising is a very good industry to work in
to find out what you want to do next, because
you've come into contact with so many different industry sectors,
(04:03):
you know, client companies, interesting people, different media and so
I guess you know. I'd always thought that my next
big thing would one day bubble up from the EFA,
and there I was, at the age of forty five
and it hadn't. So vast amounts of thought and angsting ensued,
and eventually I went, if I want to review every
(04:26):
possible option open to me for what is effectively the
second half of my life, maybe the best thing to
do is to put myself on the market very publicly
and go, okay, guys, here I am what you got
and see what comes. So I took a massive leap
into the unknown. I resigned as chairman of bb H
New York in the summer of two thousand and five,
(04:48):
without a job to go to and it was the
best bloody thing that I ever did in my life
because I am now evangelical about working for yourself, because
too many people think that a job is the safe option.
It's not, because in a job you are at the
(05:09):
complete mercy of management changes, industry downturns, marketplace dynamics. I
always say, whose hands would you rather place your future in?
Those are a large corporate entity who out then the
day doesn't give a shit about you, or somebody who
will always have your best interests at heart. I E. You,
(05:30):
So you quit without a job, and then what happened?
So then, I mean, I was very lucky because the
moment it was publicly known that I was on the market,
tons of things came to me, the vast majority of
which I would never have thought of myself. And so
I went, Okay, I'm going to be employment slut. I'm
(05:53):
going to talk to everybody because I still don't know
what I want to do. So I am going to
take every meeting. I'm going to do every call, every interview,
no preconceived notions. You know, even when I thought, you know,
I'm really not sure I want to go and work
for this company, I would still go and take the meeting.
And so I am marked on this fascinating exploratory which
(06:13):
was as good for telling me what I didn't want
to do as what I did want to do, because
I would come out of an interview of a meeting
and I would go, okay, so now I know in
fifteen million years, no wonder that. And so it was
just a very good way of helping me understand, you know,
(06:34):
what needed to be in place for whatever I did next,
you know, which which ended up basically being working for
myself because while I was doing this, I began working
as a consultant, you know, to support myself. I began,
you know, doing speaking engagements, and you know, my my
startups you know, came along by accident. But I did
begin working for myself. And and in fact, I remember
(06:58):
this moment of revelation because was that four in two
thousand and five, I had booked a speaking gig, so
I was doing a talk at an entertainment conference in
l A. But I had this moment of revelation because
I've done a lot of public speaking while I was
the CEO of BBH New York. But this was the
(07:19):
moment when I went Oh my god, I can now
say whatever I want to say, because because historically, you know,
my speaking was constrained by you know, I had to
make sure that I was articulating the agency's agenda. I
had to make sure I didn't say anything that would
piss any of our clients off. And I remember that
(07:41):
moment when I went, oh my god, I can get
up on that stage and I can say whatever the
hell I want because I had I have, I have
a ton of my own ideas, and I went, wow,
I can now just talk about what I think about
the digital future, which is what I think is this
conference is all about. And and that was, you know,
a real moment of revelation in terms of what it
(08:03):
meant to be a free agent and work for yourself.
And and actually the the other moment of revelation. So
you know, there I was doing various consulting gigs and
I had this scheduling nightmare because I was working as
a consultant on retainer to the Japanese ad agency Hacka Hodo,
(08:24):
and they had a number of people who were coming
into New York from Tokyo and and wanted to do
a big meeting with me at the same time. I've
begun working for this very interesting client confidential in Europe,
and they wanted me at a crucial meeting in London,
like on the same day, and and so I was going,
(08:46):
oh my god, what do I do? And and then
I had another moment revelation, which was Okay, so this
is incredibly stressful, but it's all your own stress, because
it's entirely up to me how I sought this out.
I don't have some big boss above me going well, Cindy,
you better den you know whatever. And and as it happened,
(09:08):
it all worked out because I basically did the meeting
with the hacka holda guys on a Thursday in New York.
I went straight to Jeff care, I caught the red
eye to London. I landed at Heathrow in the morning,
I went straight to a hotel where the European client was.
I did the presentation there. I went back to Heathrow,
caught a flight back to New York, and made it
(09:30):
late to my pre birthday dinner that evening. But I
was back in New York in time my birthday party
the following day. So it all worked out. So keep
from two thousand five you land make love not corn
at ted. What was your relationship with like sex before
you launched your company. I'm half English, half Chinese. My
(09:52):
father was English, my mother's Chinese. And I'm telling you
that because basically, as are a sexless concerned I had
a very repressed upbringing. Also also I grew up in Asia,
I grew up in Brunei, and so my parents never
talked about sex. I mean, zero sex education. Everything that
(10:12):
I learned I learned from reading books, basically, um and
and and so you know, the only thing my mother
ever said to me and my three sisters was girls,
you stay virgin to be married. But that was the
extent of the instruction basically. And did it happen, absolutely not.
But but but but actually, I mean, I mean that
(10:33):
got in my head for for many years. And so
I basically, you know, went off to university. I went
to Oxford, you know, had boyfriends, didn't awful lot of everything,
but you know, as you do in those days. And
then you know, when I finally had sex relatively late,
I think, you know, as twenty one, I went, oh
my god, this is bloody wonderful, you know. And and
(10:55):
so I think you know, because of my upbringing and
because of my my background. You know, I think that
that just made me think, you know, that the sex
is something to be celebrated and to be very open about.
You know. But but but that was pretty much the
extent of it, you know, until you know. I launched
Make Love Not Porn in the world responded, So tell
(11:15):
us more about the latch, like, how did this company
come to way? So per what I was saying earlier,
make Love Not Porn was a complete and total accident.
So I date younger men, the tent men in their twenties,
and and just throughout audience, I will contextualize that by
saying that I am somebody who has never wanted to
(11:36):
be married. I have never wanted children, very happy that
I always knew that as opposed to finding out the
hard way by having them. I adore being single. I
cannot wait to dialone. And I date younger men casually
and recreationally for sex. And I'm deliberately very open about
all of that because we don't have enough role models
(11:58):
in our society, okay for women and by the way,
for men that demonstrate you can live your life very
differently to the way that people expect you to and
still be amazingly happy. And I'm one of the happiest
people I know. So there was dating younger men and
this this would have been something like thirteen fourteen years ago,
when I began realizing through dating younger men that I
(12:22):
was encountering what happens when two things converge, and I
stressed the dual convergence because most people think it's only
one thing. I realized I was experiencing what happens when
today's total freedom of access to hardcore porn online meets
our society is equally total reluctance to talk openly and
(12:43):
honestly about sex. When those two factors converge, porn becomes
sex education by default, in not a good way. And
so I found myself encountering a number of sexual behavioral
means in bed. I went, WHOA, I know where that
behaviors coming from. I thought, Gosh, if I'm experiencing this,
(13:04):
other people must be as well. I didn't know that
because four years ago nobody was talking about this, nobody's
writing about it. This was me an isolation as a
naturally action oriented person, going I'm going to do something
about this. So um, twelve years ago, I put up
on no Money, a tiny, clunky website at make Love
(13:26):
Not Porn dot com that, in its original iteration was
just words. The construct was porn world versus real world.
Here's what happens in the porn world, here's really happens
in the real world. I had the opportunity to launch
it at TED. I've been going to TED for many years,
and I became, therefore, in two thousand nine, the only
(13:47):
TED speaker to say the words come on my face
on the TED stage six times in succession. The talk
went viral as a result, and it drove this extraordinary
globe response to my tiny website that I had never anticipated.
Thousands of people wrote to me from every country in
(14:09):
the world, young and old, male and female, straight and gain,
pouring their hearts out, telling me things about their sex
lives and their porn watching habits they've never told anybody before.
And I realized I'd uncovered a huge global social issue,
and so I then felt I had a personal responsibility.
(14:31):
I had to take make Love Not Porn forwards in
a way that would make it much more far reaching, helpful,
and effective. But I also saw an opportunity to do
what I believe in very strongly, which is that the
future of business is doing good and making money simultaneously.
I saw the opportunity for a big business solution to
(14:52):
this huge, untapped global need. And I used the word
big advisably, by the way, because even then, twelve years ago,
at con such stage, I knew if I wanted to
counter the global impact of porn as default sex said,
I would have to come up with something that at
least had a potential one day to be just as mass,
(15:14):
just as mainstream, and just as all pervasive in our
society as porn currently is. And so what I decided
to do was I always emphasize, you know, make Louve
loop porn is not anti porn, because the issue isn't porn.
The issue is that we don't talk about sex in
the real world. If we did, amongst many other benefits,
(15:36):
people would be able to bring a real world mindset
when they view what is simply performative produced entertainment. And
so our tagline and make love not porn is pro
sects pro pawn, pro knowing the difference, and our mission
is one thing only, which is to help make it
easier for every single person in the world to talk
(15:57):
openly and honestly about sex. And so what I did,
very simply was I took every dynamic in social media
and applied them to this one area no other social
networkal platform will allow in order to socialize sex and
to make real world sex and talking about it socially
acceptable and therefore oftenly just as socially shareable is anything
(16:20):
else we share on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, you know, Reddit, Tumbler.
And so nine years ago, my tiny team and I
launched a make Love look porn dot tv, which is
an entirely user generated, crowdsourced video sharing platform that celebrates
real world sex. So anybody from anywhere in the world
(16:42):
can submit to us videos are themselves having real world sex.
But we're very clear what we mean by this. We
are not poorn, we are not amateur. We are building
a whole new cathrey on the Internet that has never
before existed. So short sets and so our competition isn't porn.
(17:04):
It's Facebook and YouTube, or rather it would be if
they allowed you to socially sexually self express, which they don't.
And so social sex videos on make Love not porn,
are not about performing for the camera They're simply about
doing what we all already do on every other platform,
in every other air of life, which is capture what
(17:24):
goes on in the real world as it happens, spontaneously,
in all its funny, messy, wonderful, comical, beautiful, awkward, hilarious
human nous. We curate to make sure of that. I
designed to Make Love not Porn around what everybody else
should have nobody else did human curation. There is no
(17:46):
self publishing of anything on Make Love Not Porn. Our
curators watch every single video submitted from beginning to end
before we approve or direct and publishing. And we have
a revenue sharing business model, which I designed to democratis
access to income. So our members paid a subscribe, rent
and stream social sex videos. Half the income goes to
(18:06):
our contributors, who we call our Make Love Not Porn stars.
And so we're pioneering what we call the social sex revolution.
The revolutionary part isn't the sex, it's the social So
you were like the first person to allow creators to
monetize on a social media platform. No, I foresaw the
creator economy twelve years ago. Absolutely, and in fact, when
(18:30):
we launched nine years ago and I reduced that business
model with a blog post and I titled the blog
post how make Love Not Paorn can help the global economy,
And I began it by saying, you know all those
little scam ads that pop up in the exect all
the time going make two thousand dollars a week working
from home, Well now you can. And in the post
(18:51):
I said, our aim is to one day hit the
kind of critical mass where your make love not Porn
video gets a million rentals at five dollars parental and
we give you half that income. Now We're a very
long way off that, by the way, but I'm happy
to say that during the pandemic, our make lovelock porn
stars like everyone else, they've lost their jobs, can't find work.
(19:12):
They tell us that our monthly payouts have helped and
keep going paid their rent. You know, some of them
are living off those alone, which is wonderful. But yes,
I foresaw the creator economy before anybody else did, and
I built a safe, legal, consensual platform for sharing a
real world sex years before only fans had the same idea.
(19:33):
And now, for a quick break, how do you spread
the word? Given how reluctant people are to talk about sex.
The answer is in the first instance, with extreme difficulty,
but for a different reason, Sam, because I have to
tell you and our audience that since we launched Make
Love Loo Porn dot TV nine years ago, we have
(19:55):
had nothing but a positive reaction all around the world
because we are transformative. As an utterly unique venture, we
have an uther unique capability. We have the power to
change people's sexual attitudes and behavior for the better in
all sorts of amazing ways. Um, the only challenges I've
had are in the business and financial world, but they
(20:18):
are massively business growth inhibiting because and by the way,
I have no idea of this until I embarked on
building Make Love not Porn. We fight a battle every
day to keep make Love and Porn alive. Essentially because
every piece of business infrastructure any other tech startup takes
for granted. We can't. The small print always says no
(20:40):
adult content, and I mean this is all placed across
every area of the business. I can't get funded, I
can't get banked. Make Up Porn is a no risk
venture in a high risk of what is deemed the
high risk category because we we can vouch for every
piece of content on our platform in a way that
nobody else does, but especially Samda it's your question. One
(21:01):
of the most frustrating things is we can't advertise. We
are banned from advertising on Facebook, Instagram. Read it, I
mean read it by the way I ask you Twitter.
But it's not just us. A audience needs to know
that this is massively gendered. Any female lens Sexual Health
and Wellness Venture cannot advertise either. Menstruation Ventures can't advertise
(21:26):
on Facebook and Instagram, Menopause Ventures can't have a Fertility
Ventures can't advertise. However, male sexual Health and Wellness Ventures,
erect our dysfunction solutions come on in They're all over
the place, and so in terms of how we spread
the word, we have to rely about them constantly trying
to break down these barriers all the time. But we
have to rely on two things. The first one is
(21:49):
media coverage um and so the one benefit of being
a controversial ventures that we get ongoing media coverage all
around the world without doing one single bit of media
or pr outreach. Dress as well can afording. And the
interesting thing there is that whenever we're covered in any
country in the world, that country, no matter how tiny
rockets to be number two in traffic our the US,
(22:11):
and if it's a big country, it becomes number one
in traffic, you know. I mean a few years ago
somebody wrote about us in Serbia, minuscule number two in traffic.
That summer, we're written about in Switzerland, you know, number
two in traffic. And because squid game is very popular,
I want everyone to know that last year one of
the biggest newspapers in South Korea wrote about make love
(22:33):
not porn. But by the way, we have no idea
these pieces are coming out. I mean, they find us
make up, you know, and I woke up two. South
Korea's our number one source of traffic, accounting for fifty
of it. That is how much people want us when
they find out what we are. If porn is the
Hollywood movie, we are the real world documentary and the
(22:54):
world is desperate for it. And by the way, without funding,
we're not translated, we can not leverage that traffic. South
Korea is one of those countries where, unfortunately, people don't
tend to read and write English, you know, and and
so huge bounce off rate unfortunately. And then the second thing,
and this is also interesting in terms of how much
the World Wants US is organic search. Every day all
(23:17):
around the world, people search for make love not porn
without knowing that we exist. And what I mean by
that is that the top organic search terms that drive
traffic to us are make love not porn, real sex
not porn, make love not poor. Where they don't know
there's adventure that that's called that. One young man told
(23:38):
me that he found us when he googled porn that
is not porn because he was so fed up with
everything out there he wanted something different, had no idea
what to search for. When you google porn that is
not porn, you find make love not porn. But that
gives you some idea of how media responsive and therefore
advertising responsive we are. The World wants the world has
(23:59):
a massive knee for what we deliver. And so I'm
setting out to raise a serious round of funding, the
spool that I hope will enable me to overcome those bearers, because,
by the way, trust me, those advertising barriers fall when
you're running big enough check with serious funding, I can
absolutely get in there. Have you noticed in your conversations
(24:21):
with users of the saite and from the men you date,
that porn not make love, not porn, but porn itself
has changed how people have sex well. So so first
of all, you know, I am my own research lab.
This is why I started Make Love Not Porn. I'm
very open about the fact that I date young men
casual recreation. I date a lot, a lot of them,
(24:42):
by the way, pre pandemic. You know, my is now
down to one and I hastened to add. But I
see for myself all the time exactly how this plays
out in the real world. And that torrent of emails
and I got twelve years ago has never stopped. You know,
every day the right to us from thank us the
make Love Not Porn plus on make Love Not Porn
(25:04):
dot Tv. We now have the most amazing comments and
I make Love not Porn styles at all ages. But
you know, in the same way that you know years ago,
when I launched make Love Not Porn dot com and
it was just porn world versus real world, one young
man wrote me and said, I've learned more about sex
from your site than any sex education in school. And
(25:25):
and today, you know, one young man left a comment
on one of our make Love Not Porns love videos
where he said, I'm so happy I found you you know,
this is my very first time watching Making Love. All
I've watched is porn. I'm sick of it. This is
just wonderful. I love you guys. But let me just
explain what I mean when I say we're transformative, because
(25:46):
it's not just the revelation, it's the social benefits that
our unique window onto real world sex spring. And by
the way, these benefits are especially apposite given the Facebook
whistleblower and the hearings happening at the moment, because social
sex on Make Love, not porn, is enormously reassuring, because
(26:09):
we celebrate real world everything, real world bodies, real world hair,
real world penis size, real world breast size. And the
reason that's so important is because you can talk body
positivity all you like, you can preach self love till
you're blue in the face. At the end of the day.
(26:32):
Nothing makes us feel great about our own bodies like
seeing people who are those idea of aspiracial body types
getting turned on by each other, desiring each other, having
an amazing time in bed. Our mantras everybody is beautiful
when they're having real world sex, and they really are.
And this is so crucial because as you know all
(26:53):
around us. Every day in popular culture, we are sent
messages that we are not sexually desirable and this we
are this skinny six pack abs look like this. Our
members write to us and tell us that we have
made them feel better about their own bodies. One man
wrote and said, my girlfriend and I now feel able
to be more open and central with each other because
(27:15):
your videos made each of us feel better about our
own bodies. And in fact, we have a number of
make Love Not Porn stars, so we are all inclusive
with many solo make Love Notop porn stars who have
shared masturbation videos, often by the way, for the first
time ever, the vast majority of our contributors had never
ever filmed themselves doing anything sexual before. Ever, they're doing
(27:37):
it for us because they believe in our mission, and
so we we have a number of make Love Lup
poul stars, like one woman who joined us just a
few weeks ago. We published a first video where she said,
all my life, I've been told my revolvers growth, it's ugly,
it's too big, it's too and I'm sick of it,
and so I decided to share this is the first
(27:57):
time I've done this. I decided to share a video
of myself masturbating on Make Love Not Porn because I
think my volve was gorgeous and I want to know
what you guys think. And our community is wonderful, I mean, honestly,
the pylon of affirmation and love and compliments. I mean,
she was just blown away by that. And so we
are a completely safe space in which you discover that
(28:21):
what makes you incredibly sexually attractive as you, it's you,
and your body is the manifestation of you in the
real world, and it's incredibly sexy because it's yours and
then and then the other thing. We also celebrate real
world emotion, love, intimacy, feelings. And the reason that's crucial
(28:41):
is because all around us in popular culture, we see
many creative expressions and narratives of relationships, but we never
see the actual sex. On Make Love Not Porn, you
see the actual sex, but you also see the relationships
because in our videos those two things are indivisible. And
(29:02):
by the way, I don't just mean that. In our
partnered couple threesome videos, you know you see amazing, loving,
healthy relationship dynamics. In our solar videos, you see what
it's like to have a healthy relationship with yourself, with
your own sexuality, with your own body, with your own genitals.
You know. One man wrote to us about a video
he wrote to the Make Love Not Bored stars. He
(29:23):
said the sex that video was incidental. I want what
you guys have. I saw the way look shove up.
I saw the way your eyes met. I hope one
day I can meet someone i'll have that with. We
get very moving emails. Well, Cindy, I want to talk
about that because it's interesting the way you talk about
your own social life. Right, you broadcast the fact that
you date younger men and you're not interested in relationship,
(29:46):
You're not interesting getting married, you're not interested in having kids.
Yet you talk about one of the best things about
your state being the fact that it does draw out
relationships and the emotion behind this sex. So how do
you just about that? Sure? So I absolutely have relationships,
they're just not everybody else's idea of relationships. So I
(30:08):
meet the younger men I date on cougar dating sites.
I applaud the rise of the niche dating side, where
everyone knows exactly whether they're and I have one fundamental criterion,
no matter how casual the relationship. They have to be
a very nice person. I have fantastic radar of very
nice people, and as a result, I only date utterly
(30:31):
lovely younger men in an atmosphere of mutual trust, respect, affection,
and liking. And so ironically, my so called casual relations
go on a lot longer than most people, so called
committed ones. I date younger men off and on over
periods of two, three, four, five, ten, fifteen years. They
may go on to date girls or an agent. They
(30:53):
may get married. We like each other, We stay friends.
I'm friends with a ton of them on Facebook, you know.
And and we will meet platonically for coffee or drinks.
And then every so often those relationships end, those marriages end,
they come back, and it's very nice and and so
it's not what the world thinks of as a conventional relationship,
but those are very rewarding relationships and quite profound ones,
(31:15):
both for me and for them, you know, Amy and
I and a lot of our friends will look upon
a man who says I only date younger women and
kind of look down on him for that. It's very
unusual to hear a woman say it. And so my
initial reaction is is it a double standard that we're
not saying, oh, that's terrible that Cindy is basically not
(31:38):
interested in men her own aid. Well, actually, I think
it's the other way around some because, to be frank,
in our society, older man, younger woman nobody bats an
elid fact of life. Okay, you know some people that
make criticized, but broadly speaking, that man is celebrated as
a hero, he's got some fantastic arm candy. Older than
(32:00):
younger man way less acceptable, much more vilified. And so again,
part of what I'm doing is champion this relationship model
to encourage people to equalize perceptions of both. I mean,
I happen to think that you should design the relation
the works for you, you know what, whatever that may be.
(32:20):
And and actually, by the way that model changes the
different stages in your life depending on what you feel
you want. In fact, even I who champed the station model,
I am gob snacked on couber dating sites by the
vast numbers of younger men who want to date old women.
And when I say date, by the way, I mean
date not just to have sex, where they actually want relations.
But we're not as aware of that because again, I've
(32:43):
encountered younger men who were terrified their friends and family
would find out they liked older women. And I've encountered
the younger men who are very who are very happy
to be seen out with me, meet my friends, etcetera.
But our society has somehow made it more embarrassing, you know,
to be an older woman young the man dating each
other than the other way around, which I think is outrageous.
(33:03):
So I'm out to equalize that ship. Do you think
there is something in your background that media have an
aversion to getting married and having kids? No? No, I
mean my parents had the happiest marriage going. I mean,
my father died a couple of years ago, but they
were married for sixty years. My mother has been grief
stricken ever since. Honestly, I would say there are far
(33:27):
more people who would feel like me if they stopped
and thought about it, because unfortunately, many people, you know,
live their lives in oiled grooves and in the fear
of what other people will think. There are many people
living lives they don't want to live, in marriages they
don't really want to be, in having children they didn't
(33:48):
necessarily want to have because of fear of what other
people would think they did the socially acceptable thing. Again,
why I believe in being very vocal about the fact
there is a different way, because I would really like
so many people just stop and think about what would
really make them happy and to really tease out do
you want children because you really want children? Or do
(34:12):
you want chidren because your mother's on your back about it?
All your friends are having them. And somebody published the
other day, not not to long ago, a study of
you know, many parents who have said that with the
benefit of hindsight, they would not have had children. Obviously
they love the children they have, you know, but there
are many people who would have chosen not to have
(34:34):
children have had an understanding of everything that it entailed.
You know. It's very interesting about you, Cindia, is that
you're not only inspirational in business and you're always getting
women to negotiate and pursue their dreams, but you also
have this entirely other thread which is inspiration personally, What
would you say to someone who's listening who feels personally
(34:57):
stuck in a relationship? So, you know, I think I
would say the same thing that I say to anybody
who feels stuck in any situation. And this is very
much a personal philosophy of mine. It's also one by
the way that I design to make love not porn
around as well, because with one's in startup you get
to design all your own beliefs and values and plosses
(35:18):
into it. But I believe that everything in life starts
with you and your values. And so I say to people,
if you if you've ever done this exercise, just take
a long, hard look into yourself and identify what you
stand for, what you believe in, what you value because
(35:39):
when you do that, that makes life so much simpler.
Life still throws at you all the ship you always will,
but you know exactly how to respond to that ship
in any given situation in a way that is true
to you. And by the way, that is the secret
of happiness, living your life and working your work in
a way that is true to you. And so if
(36:00):
you're stuck in a relationship, honestly, you know, identify your
values and ask yourself, is a relationship delivering on my
values and what I believe in, what I stand for?
Because if it's not, you know you want to get
the hell out basically, and instentally, just to make you
aware of what I mean when I say are designed
(36:20):
to make love not porn around this because this may
also a bearing on the question. I ready ask people
this question, what are your sexual values? And nobody can
ever answer me because we're not taught to think like that.
Our parents bring us up to have good manners, a
work ethic, a sense of responsibility, accountability. Nobody ever brings
(36:45):
us up to behave well in bed, but they should
because in bed values like empathy, sensitivity, generosity, kindness, honestly
respect are as important as those values are in every
other air of our lives where we're actively taught to
(37:08):
exercise them. And so what we do and make love
not porn is we role model good sexual values and
good sexual behavior. And by the way, that's why we
are so massively relevant in the era of me Too,
because right now, quite rightly, everybody is talking about consent.
Everybody is writing about consent, Lots of thoughtful, nuanced, insightful
(37:31):
think pieces out there about consent. Here's the problem, nobody
knows what consent actually looks like in bed. The only
way you educate people as to what is great consensual,
communicative sex, good sexual values and good sexual behavior is
by watching people actually having that kind of sex and
(37:53):
make love. Loop Porn is the only place on the
Internet where we can do that. Every one of our
videos is an object lesson in consent communication, good sexualized
and behavior. We are literally sex education through real world demonstration.
And so that's what I mean about everything in life
starts with you and your values, including your sexuality and
(38:14):
your sex life and how you operate in bed. And
now for a quick break. The other day, one of
the moms at school said, how do you talk to
your kid about porn? And it's that's the wrong question.
The question is how do you talk to your kid
about real sex and about what that should look like
and what porn is in relation to that, right, I mean,
(38:38):
that's what you're sort of teaching us today, is Indy exactly.
And actually, because it may be helpful for our listeners,
I will give you the two pieces of lice I
give every parent because parents and teachers have been writing
to us since day one of Making Love not born,
as you can imagine. And so the two key things are.
Number one, you cannot begin talking to your child about
(39:00):
sex too early. And when I say that, I don't
mean literally talk about sex. What I mean is the
very first time your child arsena babies come from, you know,
touches their genitals. The most important thing isn't even what
you say to them as much as how you say it.
Never ever get visibly embarrassed, Never get flustered, never you know,
(39:21):
change the topic, leave the room instead, just calmly, straightforwardly
answer them honestly and truthfully, and you will open up
a channel of communication between them and you that will
be there for the rest of their lives. And then
the second piece of vice I give is today, sadly,
when you talk to your child about sex, you must
(39:43):
also now talk to your child about porn. And it's
a lot easier to do this, the most parents realize,
because all you do is you say a version of
what I'm about to tell you, and you diale it
up or down, depending on the edge of the child.
So you go, so done. We've just talked about sex.
And you know how together we watch movies and videos
(40:04):
and cartoons where things happen that aren't real. Well, there
are also movies and videos about sex and they're not
real either, and because of that, they can be quite confusing,
and so we would rather you didn't watch them till
you're older. But if anybody ever shows you anything like that,
(40:24):
or you stumble across it, come and talk to us.
We can explain it. And that is literally all you
have to say, because you have done two very important things.
First of all, you've set up in their minds when
they stumble across porn, as they sadly will, it's not real.
And secondly, you have encouraged them to come and talk
(40:46):
to you about it, and you will want them to
do that because what somebody shows them on a phone
in the playground, what they stumble across in the neighbor's
house can be utterly traumatizing. I love it, Sam, Should
we go to the speed around? All right? Aim? Do
you want to take it away? What do you do
at night after you're finished working? Oh? Very simple? Read
(41:10):
in bed and so you know I'm I'm a big reader.
I'm also, by the way, very conscious of that thing
about you should not be looking at the screen right
up until you go to sleep, because it's not going
to help you sleep. So one of my great pleasures
is just lying in bed with a good book. And
I hugely enjoy that. That's one of my favorite pleasures too.
(41:31):
And I know another one of your favorite pleasures is
your cocktails. What is your favorite cocktail? That's an easy one,
Greg and smart, tiny, straight up with a twist, very dry,
with a glance in the direction of the roof bottle.
Uh opposite end of the day. What's your morning routine?
So I actually get up very early, and that's not
(41:55):
an intentional thing, is to deal with the fact that
this is less so in the pandemic. But now I've
resumed international travel because I'm I'm now you know, trying
to get over to London regular see my eight eight
year old mother who was over there because I didn't
see for one and a half years in the pandemic.
So um um, this this is kind of triggered by
jet lag. But you know, I'm in the habit of
(42:17):
going to bed early and correspondingly waking up very early.
And so I wake up usually around five thirty or six,
and I just love that time of day. You know,
I love watching dawn break. I mean, sadly, you know,
the mornings are now getting really dark, which is depressing. Um,
but you know I love, you know, making a cup
(42:37):
of coffee, you know, getting stuck into my emails, you know,
the muse and so on, while the world is still
waking up around me. And so I really enjoy being
an early riser. Yeah, I call that the magic hour.
When you're at ahead of everyone else. It's really a
good feeling. And also I'm very lucky here in the
sky apartment, which obviously our listeners can't see, but I
(42:58):
have stunning views, and so as dawn breaks, that also
just really enhancers all of it. Where's this story behind
this guy apartment? So the sky Partment is my home.
It's the hashtag and the name I gave to my apartment.
So I've found this by operating my New York real
estate philosophy of always go looking for what nobody else wants,
(43:21):
because the only way to have a nicer part, to
afford a nice apartment in New York is to buy
a ship hole and renovate it and so and so
I basically rate street easy looking for what nobody else wanted,
And I found the listing for the sky part, which
spoke to me for two reasons that had would have
(43:42):
had everybody else running fifty marks in the opposite direction.
And by the way. They clearly had been on the
market for eight months. No abort it. Reason number one
zero photographs of the apartment on the listing. I went great,
it's a ship hole, clearly, clearly so bad that they
you know, they couldn't even cheat a tiny corner photographically
(44:03):
borne out by point number two. The copy said bring
your vision and your architect. I went great, total ship
So I called my broker. I went to go and
say it this one. So he called out. The broker
makes an appointment, comes back, says, okay, we're going on
this day at this time. Then he said, oh, and
by the way, Cyndy, just so you know, the other
brokers said to me, I hope your client has a
(44:26):
lot of imagination. So he goes, She's got nothing but imagination.
But I'm going loving these vibes. This listing was talking
my language. So on your point to day, we meet
the sproken the lobby of a very tall, long descript
building on Fifth Avenue in Midtown, and she says to
us before we go up, let me just prepare you.
(44:47):
So I'm thinking this is getting better and better. So
she says, this building was built thirty years ago. The
developer built it built on the roof side by side
to penthouses, their triplexes, penthouse, a penthouse. B said, we're
going to go and see penthouse and penthouse is lived
in by a hoarder and intelligent catching shack part because
(45:10):
I was thinking bargain, bargain, bargain, and she said, let
me tell you, it was way worse than we first
saw it. At least he's now cleared paths of the stuff.
You can vaguely see inside the rooms. And I'm just thinking,
all my Christmass come at once. So the broker is
obviously very startled at the fact that I'm completely unfazed
at hearing this. As they go up in the elevator,
(45:31):
she says to me, people with vision come here, they
lose their vision instantly. So if some idea how bad
it was by the fact that she was under selling
every step. With the front door, so I walked into
an apartment that was piled high with stuff. I mean,
you couldn't see a thing behind it, and also it
had not been maintained in thirty odd years. There were
(45:53):
holes in the walls, the windows are covered in ship
but behind it I saw a triplex penthouse on of
the avenue with stunning views, three terraces, and a vast
amount of outdoor space, and I went, this is my apartment,
and because everybody else ran screaming. It was a total
bargain for Manhattan. But it required a full on gut
(46:15):
renovation of everything, which thank goodness, we finished just before
the pandemic. And so in lockdown I had at least
views an outdoor space, which made a huge difference. But
that is hashtag the sky Apartment. So Loui is here.
He's been listening to our conversation and he comes in
with a male perspective, and be quick, I'm gonna ask
(46:37):
the question that a lot of people are proud of thinking,
how is it having sex with a with a person
that's in their twenties verses a person that would be
like your age. Well, you know, obviously, because as I've said,
I'm not a relationship person. I'm not looking for a
relationship and I am looking for sex. Um, you know,
the difference is quite frankly, lots of stamina and very
(46:59):
short recovery areas, and certainly I'm not I'm not going
to get that with a man my age. Thank you
so much, Sandy for joining us today. It was an
absolute pleasure. And can I say to our listeners if
you liked what you heard, please do support us by
going to Make Love Not Porn dot tv. Do sign
up for a subscription. They start at ten dollars a month,
(47:19):
so they're em'tly affordable. Do consider becoming a Make Love
Not Porn star? You can be anonymous by the way,
where mass spaces and shadow out of frame, about about
half our mak Love Not Porn Star community, you know,
trims to be anonymous. And and also by the way again,
because we operate unlike anybody else on the internet. You know,
the moment you want your videos down, we delete them instantly,
(47:41):
so everything is under your control. But our Make Love
Not Porn stars tell us that socially sharing their real
world sex on Make Love Not Porn has been as
transformative for them and their relationships as socially sharing everything
else has been for the world at large. Well, I
think it's safe to say we could have tacked us
Sindy for five more hours. Sound. I really liked Cindy
(48:03):
before the interview, but now I love her. She is awesome.
Thanks for listening to What's her Story? With Sam and
Amy We would so appreciate if you would leave a
review wherever you get your podcasts, and of course connect
with us on social media at What's Her Story podcast.
What's Her Story with Sam and Amy is powered by
my company, The Riveter at The Riveter dot c o
(48:26):
in Sam's company, park Place Payments at park place payments
dot com. Thanks to our producer Stacy Para, our social
media manager Phoebe crane Fest, and our male perspective Blue
Burns
Hosts And Creators
Samantha Ettus
Amy Nelson
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.