January 7, 2021 • 29 mins
What’s Her Story with Sam & Amy talks to Farnoosh Torabi, finance expert, host of wildly popular award winning podcast "So Money,” contributing editor to Oprah magazine, and a best-selling author. Farnoosh shares her expansive view on money, from navigating “breadwinner” dynamics in marriages, to talking to children about money, to learning how to monetize not only what you do, but also what you know.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, I'm Sam Edis and I'm Amy Nelson. Welcome to
What's Her Story with Sam and Amy. This is a
show about the world's most remarkable women, their professional and
personal journeys. Together, we'll hear from gold medalists, best selling authors,
and leaders of the world's most iconic brands. Amy, It's
going to be so much fun today because it's about
(00:24):
our favorite topic, money, money, money, all the things about
all the money. Far New is an incredibly popular personal
finance expert and a contributing editor to Oprah Magazine. On
top of that, she is somehow also a best selling
author and the host and creator of the amazing podcast
So Money, which Sam and I were just on. So
(00:46):
far New, Amy and I are so excited to have
you on. We have literally a bundle of questions for you,
not just about money, but also about your own journey,
and we wanted to start by just asking you, how
do you make money? Oh, I'm laughing, nervously, nervous laugh.
(01:09):
I think this is such a great question to start with. Um.
The way that I make money is through content largely,
and there's the podcast that I host, which is called
So Money. It's been five years, almost six years, in
the in the in the running, and through that there's
obviously sponsorships and brand partnerships. UM. I've written books and
(01:32):
so that obviously has revenue streams. Speaking UM some UH
workshops as well, which was something that I have been
doing in the last few years. And this is advice
for everybody, no matter what field you're in. There's what
you do, and then there's what you know. Are you
monetizing what you know? We all monetize what we do,
(01:53):
which is I you know, if you're an accountant, you
do people's taxes. UH. If you're a teacher, you teach math.
If you're a podcaster, you do your podcast. But you
know so much too about the process of that, of
the behind the scenes of the process of how you
got there, that people want to learn that, and there's
there's a business there. So I teach how to podcast,
(02:16):
I teach how to publish a best selling book. I
teach how to get press and media, which is the
other thing that I do a lot of. But of
course it doesn't make a lot of money, but I
think it does lead to opportunities and it kind of
it's a it's a distinguisher, it's a differentiator for someone
in my field. You know, I pride on the fact
(02:37):
that you know, I've and like you know you Sam.
You know, you build a career on a lot of
media and you know sort of that you become the
go to person in your field. There's there's a value
to that, right, It's what gets you the book deals,
It's what gets you um opportunity. So I really I
really value that. Yeah. No, I started my career really
(03:01):
in personal branding out of business school, and I would
represent people like you or like me before I was me.
And what's interesting is that I feel like over time
there's become more opportunities to monetize your personal brand than
there ever were before. I would love to go back
also to your childhood. You grew up in Massachusetts, you
were born here, but your parents were immigrants. How did
(03:25):
that impact you? It was? It was hard and also
uncomfortable at times, I'll be very honest. You know, the
part of Massachusetts that I grew up in was a
very white like a lot of towns in America, it
was very white, UM Christian, UM, Irish, Catholic, specifically a
(03:50):
lot of in my town. And so I only had
one Jewish friend at school. So I I always felt
like an outsider. I always felt like another you know,
I'm for as far as Iran. Iranians can be very
white skin like me, or they can be very dark skinned,
and I have both of those people in my family
and I um so I wasn't like I looked white,
(04:11):
I read white, but I was My name was like
what the hell far news like that the r would
get dropped because it's what stuff and boss, you know,
Fatnuche was like the name that everybody called me, Like
forget it, you don't have an ar in your name.
We're just that is established. Um. I was very much
bullied for the first I would say five years in school,
(04:34):
not not terribly. And you know, I I was smart enough,
I think to know that they were the ones who
had the problem and not me. But it's still as
a young person and even as an adult, you want
to feel accepted and I but all of that said
and done, I do think I would I wouldn't change
my childhood. I think that it really created the woman
(04:55):
that I am today. I changed schools a lot. So
that was just one time that I change schools, but
I changed schools multiple times. My parents were always moving,
mainly because my dad would get promoted at work and
then the first thing they want to do is go
to get a nicer house in a nicer neighborhood with
better schools. I mean, I think anyone listening can know
someone or is that person whose family was always is
(05:18):
on the hunt for the American dream, right, And so
I was always having to introduce myself. I was always
the kid with all eyeballs on her, you know. I
always tried to like talk to people, try to make peace,
even with the bullies. Uh. It was just something that
I was a survival skill for me. You know. So
you talk about how you you your parents were on
(05:38):
the hunt for the American dream. Did you know that
that was happening when you were a child? Like, did
your parents talk with you about money early on? I
got a lot of lessons about money. I got lessons
on how to use it as a tool to get
what you want, but also that if you're in a marriage,
it's going to maybe be a problematic topic if you're
not on the same page. And my mom didn't always
(05:58):
work when created tension because as the breadwinner, my dad
would also assume the role of the controller, you know,
which is not right, but it was. It was you know,
they didn't have the education to know that, like it
shouldn't matter. Uh, they just had their own sort of
(06:18):
experiences and upbringings to to fall back on, and they
fell into very traditional roles. But I saw that and
quickly recognized the importance of as a woman, especially having
your own financial independence. And I mean we can fast
forward now because like my last book about female breadwinners
when she makes More, When it came out, people like,
(06:41):
why did you write this book? And I would always say, well,
there's this sort of macro wish you happening, and I
wanted to really dive into it and help families and
help myself because I'm in this relationship. But I all
but one thing that I kind of only realized after
the book came out, after like a year or two
of promoting it and really reflecting on the process, I
was like, damn, this is the life I designed for myself.
(07:04):
I I think I I pursued a man who made
not gobbles and gobbles of money more than me because
I always thought that if you married I learned that
if you married someone who made a lot more than you,
which I saw in my you know, in my families
and or in my communities, if the man was the
one making a lot more than you, it almost always
(07:25):
led to divorce in fidelity, control issues, fighting, power struggles,
and I, you know, and which is not not the
totality of this of what is happening in the world.
But that was my perspective. And I think that when
I was dating Um, I naturally gravitated towards the dates
(07:49):
the men that showed more than just an appetite to
make money and to thrive in their careers. So I
was a little bit different but similar in this sense
that I always wanted to date someone who hadn't made
it yet because I felt like if they had already
made it, it would never be ours, it would be his.
And so I always pursued relationships with people who were
(08:09):
ambitious but who had not yet made it, because I
wanted us to make it together. And now for a
quick break. You met your husband when you were quite
young in college, right. We did meet in in college,
and I, at nineteen, I was seated four seats away
from Tim in an evening business class at Penn State.
(08:31):
We did not date in college. We did not date.
Even after college we just remained friends and then it
was until it was not until I was about twenty
five or twenty six, we reconnected on a O L
instant messenger. Remember I want to ask something specific around
before you got married? Did you talk about money? Oh? Yeah,
and how did you talk about it? Because I, you know,
(08:53):
I think you're the primary breadwinner now were you always
did you talk about what that would be like, or
what it would be like when you had kids. I
think that we didn't talk about, like so far in
the future, how we would design our lives. But we
did talk about money the times that money would come
up we're during like big moments, whether it was, for example,
(09:15):
you know, moving in together. We moved in together a
few years into the relationships, so we have to discuss
sort of like how are we going to afford this?
And you know, I always say to people when you're
first dating someone, you don't have to come out and
just talk about money right away. But you can pick
up on certain things like what at a restaurant, how
do they tip? Like this is you know, it's it's
(09:37):
a real gateway into their you know, understanding of not
just you know, are they cheap, but also like do
they value service? And and and and do they always
want to eat out? Do they if this person is
a kindergarten teacher but always dressed to the nines and
you know, fancy handbags, Like something's going on here is
(10:00):
or an inheritance? I don't know about um? Or do
you just have a lot of credit card debt? So
sometimes like things just don't add up, so you, you know,
how do you talk about it? I think that again,
when you have these opportunities, when you're gonna be sharing
big moments together, whether it's moving in together or getting
a dog together, or you know, going on a trip together,
(10:22):
those are the times to sort of unveil a little
bit about your your savings situation, your debt situation. There's
a famous scene in the book when she makes more
and it's something that I've been repeating a lot as
when this conversation comes up. We but before we moved in,
we went to our favorite Mexican restaurant. We we were
(10:43):
going to talk about money. We took post it to
the Margarita bar and wrote down our savings are four
oh one k balance, our debt balances um or yeah,
And then we which we had to have hard liquor
at the same time, this was not a must, and
(11:05):
then we swapped post it notes. At that point nothing
really surprised us. I think that for me, I I
in my mind always knew how I was going to
work out when kids enter the picture. What was that vision?
And is that is that your situation today? Kind of?
I think I envisioned a life where, um, I could
(11:27):
I could go back and forth between being a mom
and being uh an earner and and not feel like
it was so rigid and um not to say that
my job is completely malleable and flexible. There's deadlines and
all the things, and I have clients that I have accountability,
but um it is. I think my guess is that
(11:47):
it's easier in some ways than had I chosen to
continue the newsroom path. How did you first start getting clients?
I have an agent, Okay, I have an agent, a
man or slash manager who saw me on TV when
I was twenty six years old. I used to do
these four AM hits on local. I think it was
(12:11):
ABC covering like the pre market, giving my and and
he he was up because he was like giving his
daughter a bottle at four am, and as a as
a TV agent, you just you ca you flipped through
the channels or you did back then to sort of
spot talent. And he found me and called me and
we had dinner and he started representing me, and we've
(12:33):
been working together for over ten years. When my book
came out, my first book, that completely changed the trajectory,
because now I was, whether I liked it or not,
an authority, as my literary agent told me, you're an
author now. And guess what's in the word authority? Author
Speaking of being an authority, can you give advice to
(12:53):
people who are in relationships like yours were? There? The
woman is the primary redwinner, what helps, what makes it?
Make it? Makes it saying I guess so, I think
it's important to not assume that the partner making less
has a job that is less than that his time
(13:14):
is less worthy. Like you know, you can very easily
go down that path of thinking, well, I make more
so my time is more valuable, my meeting is more
important than your meeting, And that's not true, and that
can um you know, I I find myself at moments
having those thoughts and I gotta quickly like X them
out because I'm like, Nope, that's not fair. Like he
(13:38):
is not just a paycheck. Your your spouse is not
just a dollar sign. Like they are doing a work
that they love. It is more than just It is
rewarding to them beyond the money. Is rewarding to them
because it is the path that they have chosen. It's
a connection to their colleagues, it's the work that they're
putting out in the world. And whether you know. So,
it's like if you're a surgeon and your partners a teacher,
(13:59):
both of your essential you know, and you're both your
time is equally valuable, and so that's important. I would
say also that and I say this, and it may
sound crazy that I have to say this in t
but I've it's it's it's true. We still believe that
it is the man's responsibility to be the primary breadwinner
(14:23):
in our marriages. Seventy of men and seventy percent of
women in the latest Pew study said that they think
men should more than women be the primary breadwinners. Um,
so we think we're very progressive. Yeah, and I think
that that. And then there was another study this summer
that looked at millennial women who are educated, career driven,
(14:46):
probably very progressive in their politics, are in marriages where
they are deferring a lot of their financial decisions to
their spouses. And so we what what I'm the bottom
line here is that we we identify financial roles as
masculine or feminine, mostly masculine. Right without that that whether
you're making the money, you're managing the money, that that
(15:08):
should be the guy's department. So my advice to everybody is,
don't assign a general to who should earn or who
shouldn't earn or you know, there's there's no take out
the general expectations. Um. And then lastly, uh, you know
you talked about like what was your strategy about you know,
having kids and being the breadwinner. There's no need to
(15:29):
have a strategy except with this strategy that you're just
gonna roll up your sleeves and do what's required and
do the work and work as a team. You are
a stay at home mom, you think it's okay to
up to out of the workforce for a couple of
years because you'll just get back right right back in.
What do you say to women like that, it's a
choice that they have made, and you know, I think
but so. But in in other situations it may not
(15:49):
be a choice for the relationships where that maybe the
woman wants to go back to work and the husband,
you know, stays in the house. But I learned through
writing my book I talked to a lot of relationship
experts here the reality, uh, not all men, but a
lot of men will have their egos bruised when they're
not working because we they source so much of their
sense of identity and pride and sell in sense of
(16:12):
accomplishment through work, because that's kind of the assignment we've
given them. Like men, you work, That's how you earn
your worth. That's how you're deemed productive and a contributor.
So when that is stripped to them, or when they
choose not to do that again, or for a while
they feel lost at sea, They're like, well, then what's
my purpose? What's my how? Am I? Am I good husband?
(16:33):
Am I providing? Some part of it? Is not his fault.
We have been sort of propping men up to like
take on this role. What helps in relationships is to
identify that in this relationship, money is just one aspect
of being a provider. As women, this is an opportunity
to talk to your partner and say, I need your accountability.
(16:55):
I need you to provide, like use the words that
really like, you know, bring it home for them. I
want you to be our hero in these realms like
we need childcare, we need food, we need all of
these things, and you know, enlist their accountability, enlist their
(17:15):
new and say this is like this would be the
most important thing to the family if you kind of
put it in that context. Um, I think men are
more likely to sort of rise to the occasion because
we all respond to different language, right, we all respond
to different like frameworks. Now there's Facebook groups, there's you know,
making sure where you live you're supported is also important.
I think it's more normal than it was five years ago.
(17:38):
But I think one thing that, you know, speaking of communities,
I'll put in a plug. There's an amazing community called
Dad two point oh, which is a corollarya to Mom
two point now, which we're all familiar with them. It's
been an amazing community for us in our careers. But
Dad two point now is geared towards fathers who are
working um in the home to take care of their kids.
And I think it's it's those communities do exist to
your point, right, And I think that says it's normalized,
(18:00):
it's becoming more normalized, but it's uh, there are such
bigger societal issues here to address. Around to all of this,
I think, and now for a quick break, how should
we be chalking to our kids about money? I love
this question, and it really it's it's less about how
you talk to your kids is what you show them.
I always say, especially the younger kids, because I don't
(18:24):
know about you, but my son cannot retain information. I've
tried to explain the concept of an allowance to my
six year old and he's like, by Mom, you have
to know your kid to like, if your kids showing
a lot of curiosity about money and they're seven or
eight years old, well then maybe you do take them
to the bank and you open up a bank account
together and you do kind of talk about um allowances
(18:44):
and how they can earn an allowance. I remember my parents.
I asked for an allowance when I was like six
years old, and they negotiated it with me and it
was very empowering. I've written about it, and so I think, um,
you have to know where your kids at and and
you don't force it down their three roads. One of
my friends as an entrepreneur and her kids when they're
(19:04):
walking home from anywhere, um, and they live in New York,
so they usually will walk the past businesses and shops
and UM, she'll say, okay, tell me why this business
might be successful. Tell me why you know why that
coffee shop is going to do better than that coffee shop.
So she's trying to teach them how to like understand
and take guesses about like what drives success at business
(19:27):
like these are you know, and this is just when
they're walking, no pressure, just like and the kids have
fun with it. You know, if you were gonna out
there see like a force for lease, you know what
would you open up here? What would be a good
business to open up here? So, um, just keeping that
top of mind that there's always an opportunity to have
a natural, easy conversation about money or business with your kids. UM.
Showing through your modeling if you do have an argument
(19:50):
about money with your partner and your kids happen to
be with an ear shot, I think it's important that
you show how you resolved it. And that's of any
like any of our gument I think our better study
that was like, are you in front of your kids?
Isn't the bad part? It's the when you don't resolve
the argument in front of your kids. It's you know,
but showing how you came to a decision or you're
(20:10):
working through it, I think is important. Lastly, don't avoid
their questions. Respond to that question with their own question,
which is what what makes you curious about this? Just
sort of explore it with them, as opposed to saying
like not Now, look how uncomfortable. And most people are
talking about money, right, So the more you can make
it a non taboo subject, that the healthier your own
(20:33):
kids relationship with money will be. That's the point, right,
Just try to normalize it. These are good tips. Okay,
So we end every episode of The Lightning Round. Um,
quick questions, easy answers, Um, what are you reading? What
am I reading? Um? Oh gosh, clearly not enough because
(20:54):
I can't think of something off the top of my head.
I I tell I'll be very honest with you, it's
been a long time as I read a book book
I am. So I'm a bit of a nerd. If
I do really like to read about pop science or
culture or like nonfiction things, but I don't read books
for now. How much money would be enough money for
you to earn? Oh? Wow, I feel like I'm there,
(21:19):
you know. I feel like I am very happy and
grateful for the income that my business has been able
to produce, especially over the last few years. I think
I've really found my I've cracked the code for sort
of how to um and even if I don't make
what I'm making now, I've also modeled it out like
if we make half, like, will we be okay? And
(21:41):
the answer is yes, we live very below our means
for you know, the income that my husband I bring
in um to where whereas if we didn't make money
for a year, we would be okay. But if I
were to receive more money, I would try to give
it back more. What is your nighttime routine? Okay, if
I have no time and maybe I've slept with my
contacts on and I've just woken up an hour into it,
(22:05):
and maybe I have some eye makeup on, I go
into the bathroom and I get like makeup wipes or
like I makeup remover and just at least get the
mess garre off my eyes, and then I go back
to sleep. But if I have time and I'm not tired,
I go in and I remove all my makeup, which
normally don't wear makeup right now, but if I'm doing TV,
wash my face, go to the bathroom, put some moisturizer,
(22:29):
go to bed at like midnight after watching way too
much Netflix. Who leaves you start stra Sally Field, but
also Jeane Fonda. I have such a love for these
older women who even in their like eighties and nineties,
And maybe I don't know how old Sally Field is,
but like, who are just doing more than I am,
(22:53):
you know, like making the world a better place. And
I totally respect that, and I'm and I worship that.
Don't make them like Sally Field and Jane Fonda and
Betty White anymore, you know, Like will we be those women?
I sure hope, so I hope we will have legacies
like them. Well here is LIU with the final question.
(23:13):
Hi for news. You know, as you were talking, I
was kind of imagining what the world would look like
with men which with strollers, like kind of meeting together
in a park, like how how some house moms do
you know having conversations about like that could blow out? Said?
You know, like like running out of wipes, you know,
baby catching tantrums in the out of supermarket. You know,
I was I was imagining this. You know. It's like,
(23:35):
you know what that sounds like a world I want
to live in right now, you know, because because of
we just need something to change, you know. Um, But
I want to. I want to. I want to kind
of go into media because I've always wanted to ask
someone this question because I stopped watching the news because
it's so negative and it does something to my spirit
(23:57):
and it and it and it disrupts it. And I
want to know why doesn't meet doesn't the news outlets
put more positivity in front of us and put those
things like and then a sniff a sliver of of negativity?
Why why is it so heavy? I think I know,
(24:18):
and I don't. I don't think I have the whole answer.
I would love for you to work behind the scenes, Lou.
I think I think newsrooms could use your perspective. Here's
the thing, and Newses has become, especially the twenty for
our news. It has to keep our attention right and
and so unfortunately, um, when they use fearful headlines or
when they focus on the rare stories that are not
(24:39):
necessarily happy, but maybe um outliers and you know, dog
bites man and versus man bites dog. Like that's the
stuff that stops people in their tracks as humans. I
don't know the science, but I have a feeling that
we tend to get were more attracted or more our
interest is more peaked when something is like unusual or fearful,
(25:00):
or the news plays on those emotions. It's it's a
form of marketing. And of course there's a there's a
there's a good bit of like the positive stuff. But
I feel like you're right. It is sort of like
like the crime is always the top story, and then
at the end you get you know, who won the
baseball game. Um, but that's also onto intentional because they
want they know people want the good news, and so
(25:21):
they'll keep that for the very end. Thank you for that.
Thank you so much for having me. I thank you
that this made all the sense. And it's such a
hard topic to really boil down, you know, in in
any time frame. You know that this whole sort of
(25:42):
the layer complexities of breadwinning. And I will say this though,
like I don't wish for a world where all men
aren't working and all women are working, you know. I
don't want the reverse model. I think what I want
really is for everyone to accept that there's no right
or wrong and whatever will you choose. But I do,
at the end of the day, still want everyone to
(26:02):
be financially independent. So if that means that both parents
are working, then that's what I promote that I support that, amen,
you know, And so if I had to choose, I
would prefer both parents to be working simply because I
want everyone to be financially solvent. Financial independence is so
critical for a happy life and for a life where
you have freedom, right, So you know, I don't want
(26:25):
to encourage like all men you know, to stop working
and help your wives out continue their their careers. It's
it's like, how you know, I understand they're going to
be phases, but the goal should not be to have
one person miss out on financial independence. All right, thank
you so much, Thanks to everyone. You're welcome, Sam, that
(26:47):
was such an incredible conversation. I think for me, the
big takeaway is how we talk about breadwinning and how
it can change and how we need to talk about
it and what it means for our families and my
family up between me and my husband. I started out
as a primary breadwinner. He took on that role and
now we're kind of somewhere in this flexible middle place.
But it's meaningful. What was your money situation in your
(27:11):
house growing up? Oh, in my house, growing up, we
never talked about money, and it was really hard for
me to get to a place where I could talk
about money. I can talk about wanting to make a
lot of money, but it's really hard for me to
talk about, you know, my budgeting or saving or paying
off my law school loans. All of that. It just
was not discussed at my house. What about you, Well,
(27:31):
you know, it's funny. My parents always kind of lived
above their means, if I'm gonna be honest about it. So,
I mean, we always went on these like very elaborate vacations,
and then when I was like twenty three years old,
it just stopped because they ran out of money to
take us on these really and its vacations. But I mean,
I was always very aware of the fact that my parents,
(27:52):
like just were they spent what they had, but we
lived a really nice life. But at the same time,
my mom would never even accept one penny of credit
card debt. And she was obsessed with financial independence for women.
So it's weird because it's a funny blend. I remember
when I when I married Mitch, like his family was
much more frugal, and so we had to find a
middle ground and that was definitely a huge challenge for us,
(28:15):
and I hope this conversation was helpful to all of
us and figuring out how to better tackle those kinds
of conversations. Thanks for listening to What's Her Story with
Sam and Amy. We would so appreciate if you would
leave a review wherever you get your podcasts, and of
course connect with us on social media and What's Her
Story of podcast. What's Her Story with Sam and Amy
(28:37):
is powered by my company, The Riveter at the Riveter
dot c o in Sam's company, park Place Payments at
park place payments dot com. Thanks to our producer Laurel Mowglin,
our podcast associate Emma Hard, and our male perspective Lue Burns.
Hi, I'm Sam Edis and I'm Amy Nelson. Welcome to
What's Her Story with Sam and Amy. This is a
show about the world's most remarkable women, their professional and
personal journeys. Together, we'll hear from gold medalists, best selling authors,
and leaders of the world's most iconic brands. Amy, It's
going to be so much fun today because it's about
(00:24):
our favorite topic, money, money, money, all the things about
all the money. Far New is an incredibly popular personal
finance expert and a contributing editor to Oprah Magazine. On
top of that, she is somehow also a best selling
author and the host and creator of the amazing podcast
So Money, which Sam and I were just on. So
(00:46):
far New, Amy and I are so excited to have
you on. We have literally a bundle of questions for you,
not just about money, but also about your own journey,
and we wanted to start by just asking you, how
do you make money? Oh, I'm laughing, nervously, nervous laugh.
(01:09):
I think this is such a great question to start with. Um.
The way that I make money is through content largely,
and there's the podcast that I host, which is called
So Money. It's been five years, almost six years, in
the in the in the running, and through that there's
obviously sponsorships and brand partnerships. UM. I've written books and
(01:32):
so that obviously has revenue streams. Speaking UM some UH
workshops as well, which was something that I have been
doing in the last few years. And this is advice
for everybody, no matter what field you're in. There's what
you do, and then there's what you know. Are you
monetizing what you know? We all monetize what we do,
(01:53):
which is I you know, if you're an accountant, you
do people's taxes. UH. If you're a teacher, you teach math.
If you're a podcaster, you do your podcast. But you
know so much too about the process of that, of
the behind the scenes of the process of how you
got there, that people want to learn that, and there's
there's a business there. So I teach how to podcast,
(02:16):
I teach how to publish a best selling book. I
teach how to get press and media, which is the
other thing that I do a lot of. But of
course it doesn't make a lot of money, but I
think it does lead to opportunities and it kind of
it's a it's a distinguisher, it's a differentiator for someone
in my field. You know, I pride on the fact
(02:37):
that you know, I've and like you know you Sam.
You know, you build a career on a lot of
media and you know sort of that you become the
go to person in your field. There's there's a value
to that, right, It's what gets you the book deals,
It's what gets you um opportunity. So I really I
really value that. Yeah. No, I started my career really
(03:01):
in personal branding out of business school, and I would
represent people like you or like me before I was me.
And what's interesting is that I feel like over time
there's become more opportunities to monetize your personal brand than
there ever were before. I would love to go back
also to your childhood. You grew up in Massachusetts, you
were born here, but your parents were immigrants. How did
(03:25):
that impact you? It was? It was hard and also
uncomfortable at times, I'll be very honest. You know, the
part of Massachusetts that I grew up in was a
very white like a lot of towns in America, it
was very white, UM Christian, UM, Irish, Catholic, specifically a
(03:50):
lot of in my town. And so I only had
one Jewish friend at school. So I I always felt
like an outsider. I always felt like another you know,
I'm for as far as Iran. Iranians can be very
white skin like me, or they can be very dark skinned,
and I have both of those people in my family
and I um so I wasn't like I looked white,
(04:11):
I read white, but I was My name was like
what the hell far news like that the r would
get dropped because it's what stuff and boss, you know,
Fatnuche was like the name that everybody called me, Like
forget it, you don't have an ar in your name.
We're just that is established. Um. I was very much
bullied for the first I would say five years in school,
(04:34):
not not terribly. And you know, I I was smart enough,
I think to know that they were the ones who
had the problem and not me. But it's still as
a young person and even as an adult, you want
to feel accepted and I but all of that said
and done, I do think I would I wouldn't change
my childhood. I think that it really created the woman
(04:55):
that I am today. I changed schools a lot. So
that was just one time that I change schools, but
I changed schools multiple times. My parents were always moving,
mainly because my dad would get promoted at work and
then the first thing they want to do is go
to get a nicer house in a nicer neighborhood with
better schools. I mean, I think anyone listening can know
someone or is that person whose family was always is
(05:18):
on the hunt for the American dream, right, And so
I was always having to introduce myself. I was always
the kid with all eyeballs on her, you know. I
always tried to like talk to people, try to make peace,
even with the bullies. Uh. It was just something that
I was a survival skill for me. You know. So
you talk about how you you your parents were on
(05:38):
the hunt for the American dream. Did you know that
that was happening when you were a child? Like, did
your parents talk with you about money early on? I
got a lot of lessons about money. I got lessons
on how to use it as a tool to get
what you want, but also that if you're in a marriage,
it's going to maybe be a problematic topic if you're
not on the same page. And my mom didn't always
(05:58):
work when created tension because as the breadwinner, my dad
would also assume the role of the controller, you know,
which is not right, but it was. It was you know,
they didn't have the education to know that, like it
shouldn't matter. Uh, they just had their own sort of
(06:18):
experiences and upbringings to to fall back on, and they
fell into very traditional roles. But I saw that and
quickly recognized the importance of as a woman, especially having
your own financial independence. And I mean we can fast
forward now because like my last book about female breadwinners
when she makes More, When it came out, people like,
(06:41):
why did you write this book? And I would always say, well,
there's this sort of macro wish you happening, and I
wanted to really dive into it and help families and
help myself because I'm in this relationship. But I all
but one thing that I kind of only realized after
the book came out, after like a year or two
of promoting it and really reflecting on the process, I
was like, damn, this is the life I designed for myself.
(07:04):
I I think I I pursued a man who made
not gobbles and gobbles of money more than me because
I always thought that if you married I learned that
if you married someone who made a lot more than you,
which I saw in my you know, in my families
and or in my communities, if the man was the
one making a lot more than you, it almost always
(07:25):
led to divorce in fidelity, control issues, fighting, power struggles,
and I, you know, and which is not not the
totality of this of what is happening in the world.
But that was my perspective. And I think that when
I was dating Um, I naturally gravitated towards the dates
(07:49):
the men that showed more than just an appetite to
make money and to thrive in their careers. So I
was a little bit different but similar in this sense
that I always wanted to date someone who hadn't made
it yet because I felt like if they had already
made it, it would never be ours, it would be his.
And so I always pursued relationships with people who were
(08:09):
ambitious but who had not yet made it, because I
wanted us to make it together. And now for a
quick break. You met your husband when you were quite
young in college, right. We did meet in in college,
and I, at nineteen, I was seated four seats away
from Tim in an evening business class at Penn State.
(08:31):
We did not date in college. We did not date.
Even after college we just remained friends and then it
was until it was not until I was about twenty
five or twenty six, we reconnected on a O L
instant messenger. Remember I want to ask something specific around
before you got married? Did you talk about money? Oh? Yeah,
and how did you talk about it? Because I, you know,
(08:53):
I think you're the primary breadwinner now were you always
did you talk about what that would be like, or
what it would be like when you had kids. I
think that we didn't talk about, like so far in
the future, how we would design our lives. But we
did talk about money the times that money would come
up we're during like big moments, whether it was, for example,
(09:15):
you know, moving in together. We moved in together a
few years into the relationships, so we have to discuss
sort of like how are we going to afford this?
And you know, I always say to people when you're
first dating someone, you don't have to come out and
just talk about money right away. But you can pick
up on certain things like what at a restaurant, how
do they tip? Like this is you know, it's it's
(09:37):
a real gateway into their you know, understanding of not
just you know, are they cheap, but also like do
they value service? And and and and do they always
want to eat out? Do they if this person is
a kindergarten teacher but always dressed to the nines and
you know, fancy handbags, Like something's going on here is
(10:00):
or an inheritance? I don't know about um? Or do
you just have a lot of credit card debt? So
sometimes like things just don't add up, so you, you know,
how do you talk about it? I think that again,
when you have these opportunities, when you're gonna be sharing
big moments together, whether it's moving in together or getting
a dog together, or you know, going on a trip together,
(10:22):
those are the times to sort of unveil a little
bit about your your savings situation, your debt situation. There's
a famous scene in the book when she makes more
and it's something that I've been repeating a lot as
when this conversation comes up. We but before we moved in,
we went to our favorite Mexican restaurant. We we were
(10:43):
going to talk about money. We took post it to
the Margarita bar and wrote down our savings are four
oh one k balance, our debt balances um or yeah,
And then we which we had to have hard liquor
at the same time, this was not a must, and
(11:05):
then we swapped post it notes. At that point nothing
really surprised us. I think that for me, I I
in my mind always knew how I was going to
work out when kids enter the picture. What was that vision?
And is that is that your situation today? Kind of?
I think I envisioned a life where, um, I could
(11:27):
I could go back and forth between being a mom
and being uh an earner and and not feel like
it was so rigid and um not to say that
my job is completely malleable and flexible. There's deadlines and
all the things, and I have clients that I have accountability,
but um it is. I think my guess is that
(11:47):
it's easier in some ways than had I chosen to
continue the newsroom path. How did you first start getting clients?
I have an agent, Okay, I have an agent, a
man or slash manager who saw me on TV when
I was twenty six years old. I used to do
these four AM hits on local. I think it was
(12:11):
ABC covering like the pre market, giving my and and
he he was up because he was like giving his
daughter a bottle at four am, and as a as
a TV agent, you just you ca you flipped through
the channels or you did back then to sort of
spot talent. And he found me and called me and
we had dinner and he started representing me, and we've
(12:33):
been working together for over ten years. When my book
came out, my first book, that completely changed the trajectory,
because now I was, whether I liked it or not,
an authority, as my literary agent told me, you're an
author now. And guess what's in the word authority? Author
Speaking of being an authority, can you give advice to
(12:53):
people who are in relationships like yours were? There? The
woman is the primary redwinner, what helps, what makes it?
Make it? Makes it saying I guess so, I think
it's important to not assume that the partner making less
has a job that is less than that his time
(13:14):
is less worthy. Like you know, you can very easily
go down that path of thinking, well, I make more
so my time is more valuable, my meeting is more
important than your meeting, And that's not true, and that
can um you know, I I find myself at moments
having those thoughts and I gotta quickly like X them
out because I'm like, Nope, that's not fair. Like he
(13:38):
is not just a paycheck. Your your spouse is not
just a dollar sign. Like they are doing a work
that they love. It is more than just It is
rewarding to them beyond the money. Is rewarding to them
because it is the path that they have chosen. It's
a connection to their colleagues, it's the work that they're
putting out in the world. And whether you know. So,
it's like if you're a surgeon and your partners a teacher,
(13:59):
both of your essential you know, and you're both your
time is equally valuable, and so that's important. I would
say also that and I say this, and it may
sound crazy that I have to say this in t
but I've it's it's it's true. We still believe that
it is the man's responsibility to be the primary breadwinner
(14:23):
in our marriages. Seventy of men and seventy percent of
women in the latest Pew study said that they think
men should more than women be the primary breadwinners. Um,
so we think we're very progressive. Yeah, and I think
that that. And then there was another study this summer
that looked at millennial women who are educated, career driven,
(14:46):
probably very progressive in their politics, are in marriages where
they are deferring a lot of their financial decisions to
their spouses. And so we what what I'm the bottom
line here is that we we identify financial roles as
masculine or feminine, mostly masculine. Right without that that whether
you're making the money, you're managing the money, that that
(15:08):
should be the guy's department. So my advice to everybody is,
don't assign a general to who should earn or who
shouldn't earn or you know, there's there's no take out
the general expectations. Um. And then lastly, uh, you know
you talked about like what was your strategy about you know,
having kids and being the breadwinner. There's no need to
(15:29):
have a strategy except with this strategy that you're just
gonna roll up your sleeves and do what's required and
do the work and work as a team. You are
a stay at home mom, you think it's okay to
up to out of the workforce for a couple of
years because you'll just get back right right back in.
What do you say to women like that, it's a
choice that they have made, and you know, I think
but so. But in in other situations it may not
(15:49):
be a choice for the relationships where that maybe the
woman wants to go back to work and the husband,
you know, stays in the house. But I learned through
writing my book I talked to a lot of relationship
experts here the reality, uh, not all men, but a
lot of men will have their egos bruised when they're
not working because we they source so much of their
sense of identity and pride and sell in sense of
(16:12):
accomplishment through work, because that's kind of the assignment we've
given them. Like men, you work, That's how you earn
your worth. That's how you're deemed productive and a contributor.
So when that is stripped to them, or when they
choose not to do that again, or for a while
they feel lost at sea, They're like, well, then what's
my purpose? What's my how? Am I? Am I good husband?
(16:33):
Am I providing? Some part of it? Is not his fault.
We have been sort of propping men up to like
take on this role. What helps in relationships is to
identify that in this relationship, money is just one aspect
of being a provider. As women, this is an opportunity
to talk to your partner and say, I need your accountability.
(16:55):
I need you to provide, like use the words that
really like, you know, bring it home for them. I
want you to be our hero in these realms like
we need childcare, we need food, we need all of
these things, and you know, enlist their accountability, enlist their
(17:15):
new and say this is like this would be the
most important thing to the family if you kind of
put it in that context. Um, I think men are
more likely to sort of rise to the occasion because
we all respond to different language, right, we all respond
to different like frameworks. Now there's Facebook groups, there's you know,
making sure where you live you're supported is also important.
I think it's more normal than it was five years ago.
(17:38):
But I think one thing that, you know, speaking of communities,
I'll put in a plug. There's an amazing community called
Dad two point oh, which is a corollarya to Mom
two point now, which we're all familiar with them. It's
been an amazing community for us in our careers. But
Dad two point now is geared towards fathers who are
working um in the home to take care of their kids.
And I think it's it's those communities do exist to
your point, right, And I think that says it's normalized,
(18:00):
it's becoming more normalized, but it's uh, there are such
bigger societal issues here to address. Around to all of this,
I think, and now for a quick break, how should
we be chalking to our kids about money? I love
this question, and it really it's it's less about how
you talk to your kids is what you show them.
I always say, especially the younger kids, because I don't
(18:24):
know about you, but my son cannot retain information. I've
tried to explain the concept of an allowance to my
six year old and he's like, by Mom, you have
to know your kid to like, if your kids showing
a lot of curiosity about money and they're seven or
eight years old, well then maybe you do take them
to the bank and you open up a bank account
together and you do kind of talk about um allowances
(18:44):
and how they can earn an allowance. I remember my parents.
I asked for an allowance when I was like six
years old, and they negotiated it with me and it
was very empowering. I've written about it, and so I think, um,
you have to know where your kids at and and
you don't force it down their three roads. One of
my friends as an entrepreneur and her kids when they're
(19:04):
walking home from anywhere, um, and they live in New York,
so they usually will walk the past businesses and shops
and UM, she'll say, okay, tell me why this business
might be successful. Tell me why you know why that
coffee shop is going to do better than that coffee shop.
So she's trying to teach them how to like understand
and take guesses about like what drives success at business
(19:27):
like these are you know, and this is just when
they're walking, no pressure, just like and the kids have
fun with it. You know, if you were gonna out
there see like a force for lease, you know what
would you open up here? What would be a good
business to open up here? So, um, just keeping that
top of mind that there's always an opportunity to have
a natural, easy conversation about money or business with your kids. UM.
Showing through your modeling if you do have an argument
(19:50):
about money with your partner and your kids happen to
be with an ear shot, I think it's important that
you show how you resolved it. And that's of any
like any of our gument I think our better study
that was like, are you in front of your kids?
Isn't the bad part? It's the when you don't resolve
the argument in front of your kids. It's you know,
but showing how you came to a decision or you're
(20:10):
working through it, I think is important. Lastly, don't avoid
their questions. Respond to that question with their own question,
which is what what makes you curious about this? Just
sort of explore it with them, as opposed to saying
like not Now, look how uncomfortable. And most people are
talking about money, right, So the more you can make
it a non taboo subject, that the healthier your own
(20:33):
kids relationship with money will be. That's the point, right,
Just try to normalize it. These are good tips. Okay,
So we end every episode of The Lightning Round. Um,
quick questions, easy answers, Um, what are you reading? What
am I reading? Um? Oh gosh, clearly not enough because
(20:54):
I can't think of something off the top of my head.
I I tell I'll be very honest with you, it's
been a long time as I read a book book
I am. So I'm a bit of a nerd. If
I do really like to read about pop science or
culture or like nonfiction things, but I don't read books
for now. How much money would be enough money for
you to earn? Oh? Wow, I feel like I'm there,
(21:19):
you know. I feel like I am very happy and
grateful for the income that my business has been able
to produce, especially over the last few years. I think
I've really found my I've cracked the code for sort
of how to um and even if I don't make
what I'm making now, I've also modeled it out like
if we make half, like, will we be okay? And
(21:41):
the answer is yes, we live very below our means
for you know, the income that my husband I bring
in um to where whereas if we didn't make money
for a year, we would be okay. But if I
were to receive more money, I would try to give
it back more. What is your nighttime routine? Okay, if
I have no time and maybe I've slept with my
contacts on and I've just woken up an hour into it,
(22:05):
and maybe I have some eye makeup on, I go
into the bathroom and I get like makeup wipes or
like I makeup remover and just at least get the
mess garre off my eyes, and then I go back
to sleep. But if I have time and I'm not tired,
I go in and I remove all my makeup, which
normally don't wear makeup right now, but if I'm doing TV,
wash my face, go to the bathroom, put some moisturizer,
(22:29):
go to bed at like midnight after watching way too
much Netflix. Who leaves you start stra Sally Field, but
also Jeane Fonda. I have such a love for these
older women who even in their like eighties and nineties,
And maybe I don't know how old Sally Field is,
but like, who are just doing more than I am,
(22:53):
you know, like making the world a better place. And
I totally respect that, and I'm and I worship that.
Don't make them like Sally Field and Jane Fonda and
Betty White anymore, you know, Like will we be those women?
I sure hope, so I hope we will have legacies
like them. Well here is LIU with the final question.
(23:13):
Hi for news. You know, as you were talking, I
was kind of imagining what the world would look like
with men which with strollers, like kind of meeting together
in a park, like how how some house moms do
you know having conversations about like that could blow out? Said?
You know, like like running out of wipes, you know,
baby catching tantrums in the out of supermarket. You know,
I was I was imagining this. You know. It's like,
(23:35):
you know what that sounds like a world I want
to live in right now, you know, because because of
we just need something to change, you know. Um, But
I want to. I want to. I want to kind
of go into media because I've always wanted to ask
someone this question because I stopped watching the news because
it's so negative and it does something to my spirit
(23:57):
and it and it and it disrupts it. And I
want to know why doesn't meet doesn't the news outlets
put more positivity in front of us and put those
things like and then a sniff a sliver of of negativity?
Why why is it so heavy? I think I know,
(24:18):
and I don't. I don't think I have the whole answer.
I would love for you to work behind the scenes, Lou.
I think I think newsrooms could use your perspective. Here's
the thing, and Newses has become, especially the twenty for
our news. It has to keep our attention right and
and so unfortunately, um, when they use fearful headlines or
when they focus on the rare stories that are not
(24:39):
necessarily happy, but maybe um outliers and you know, dog
bites man and versus man bites dog. Like that's the
stuff that stops people in their tracks as humans. I
don't know the science, but I have a feeling that
we tend to get were more attracted or more our
interest is more peaked when something is like unusual or fearful,
(25:00):
or the news plays on those emotions. It's it's a
form of marketing. And of course there's a there's a
there's a good bit of like the positive stuff. But
I feel like you're right. It is sort of like
like the crime is always the top story, and then
at the end you get you know, who won the
baseball game. Um, but that's also onto intentional because they
want they know people want the good news, and so
(25:21):
they'll keep that for the very end. Thank you for that.
Thank you so much for having me. I thank you
that this made all the sense. And it's such a
hard topic to really boil down, you know, in in
any time frame. You know that this whole sort of
(25:42):
the layer complexities of breadwinning. And I will say this though,
like I don't wish for a world where all men
aren't working and all women are working, you know. I
don't want the reverse model. I think what I want
really is for everyone to accept that there's no right
or wrong and whatever will you choose. But I do,
at the end of the day, still want everyone to
(26:02):
be financially independent. So if that means that both parents
are working, then that's what I promote that I support that, amen,
you know, And so if I had to choose, I
would prefer both parents to be working simply because I
want everyone to be financially solvent. Financial independence is so
critical for a happy life and for a life where
you have freedom, right, So you know, I don't want
(26:25):
to encourage like all men you know, to stop working
and help your wives out continue their their careers. It's
it's like, how you know, I understand they're going to
be phases, but the goal should not be to have
one person miss out on financial independence. All right, thank
you so much, Thanks to everyone. You're welcome, Sam, that
(26:47):
was such an incredible conversation. I think for me, the
big takeaway is how we talk about breadwinning and how
it can change and how we need to talk about
it and what it means for our families and my
family up between me and my husband. I started out
as a primary breadwinner. He took on that role and
now we're kind of somewhere in this flexible middle place.
But it's meaningful. What was your money situation in your
(27:11):
house growing up? Oh, in my house, growing up, we
never talked about money, and it was really hard for
me to get to a place where I could talk
about money. I can talk about wanting to make a
lot of money, but it's really hard for me to
talk about, you know, my budgeting or saving or paying
off my law school loans. All of that. It just
was not discussed at my house. What about you, Well,
(27:31):
you know, it's funny. My parents always kind of lived
above their means, if I'm gonna be honest about it. So,
I mean, we always went on these like very elaborate vacations,
and then when I was like twenty three years old,
it just stopped because they ran out of money to
take us on these really and its vacations. But I mean,
I was always very aware of the fact that my parents,
(27:52):
like just were they spent what they had, but we
lived a really nice life. But at the same time,
my mom would never even accept one penny of credit
card debt. And she was obsessed with financial independence for women.
So it's weird because it's a funny blend. I remember
when I when I married Mitch, like his family was
much more frugal, and so we had to find a
middle ground and that was definitely a huge challenge for us,
(28:15):
and I hope this conversation was helpful to all of
us and figuring out how to better tackle those kinds
of conversations. Thanks for listening to What's Her Story with
Sam and Amy. We would so appreciate if you would
leave a review wherever you get your podcasts, and of
course connect with us on social media and What's Her
Story of podcast. What's Her Story with Sam and Amy
(28:37):
is powered by my company, The Riveter at the Riveter
dot c o in Sam's company, park Place Payments at
park place payments dot com. Thanks to our producer Laurel Mowglin,
our podcast associate Emma Hard, and our male perspective Lue Burns.
Hosts And Creators
Samantha Ettus
Amy Nelson
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