January 20, 2022 • 41 mins
Dubbed the "most famous and least understood right-hand woman," Huma Abedin was the gatekeeper to Hillary Clinton and the former wife of disgraced Congressman Anthony Weiner. Huma has recently added best selling author to the mix with the release of her memoir, "BOTH/AND: A Life In Many Worlds." In her most in depth interview ever, Huma talks about the highs and the lows, her heartbreak, her relationship with Hillary, her guilt about the 2016 election and even her dating life.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Sam Edis and I'm Amy Nelson. Welcome to
What's Her Story? With Sam and Amy. This is a
show about the world's most remarkable women, their professional and
personal journeys. Together, we'll hear from Gold medalists, best selling authors,
and leaders of the world's most iconic brands. Listen every
(00:22):
Thursday or join the conversation anytime on Instagram at What's
Her Story Podcast. Today, We're so excited to welcome Homa
Aberdeen to the show. Huma started as an intern in
the Clinton White House at the age of just one.
She went on to work as a leader on Hillary
Clinton's team during her time in the U. S. Senate,
(00:43):
as Secretary of State and later as vice chairwoman of
her presidential campaign. Huma just published her first book, the
best selling Story of her life Both and one of
the things that strikes me about you is your poise.
And it's hard for me to think of anyone, truly,
(01:05):
anyone who's as poised and gracious and handles themselves as
well in public. And so I think because of that,
this sort of soap opera you found yourself in was
even that much more startling. The contrast between Anthony's transgression
(01:27):
and who you are. How did you reconcile that. First
of all, I've been asked a lot of questions of
my book. No one asked me this question. But I
was actually quite clutsy growing up. I was I was
the cut up in our family, and my my older
brother and sister were you know, super you know, they
did everything right. And my little sister, um Sam, who
(01:48):
you know, was always the perfect princess, the beautiful, and
I was the one right in the middle who every
time we had a family play that we put on
from my parents, I was always like my brother was
both Han Solo and Luke Skywalker, and my older sister
was Princess Leah and sometimes him, but my little sisters
Princess Lea, and I was always Chewbacca because I was
(02:11):
always the one breaking things that I wand around. So
I think it's so funny when people say to me
as an adult that they think I'm poised, because I
take that as a It's not how I see myself,
you know how. Sometimes we perceive ourselves in certain ways,
and I've never sort of broken out of that image
that I had of myself. But I do think I
give credit to my father and mother because from a
(02:34):
very young age they forced me out into the world. Um,
you know, I share stories in the book about being
seven and eight and and being sent down the hall
to talk to my father's academic friends and talk about
my poetry and my writing, and and being in adult
conversations and being surrounded by adult conversations at the time
(02:56):
was just normal for me. But now that I'm raising
I have a ten year old boy, and you know,
all three of us are talking about our children, and
maybe it's a sort of a different way. I think
in some ways, Uh, certain parents like they their children
have their lives, and they they're scheduled, and then they
have their own professional lives. In my house, we were
just along for the ride. It's my dad's going to
(03:17):
a conference Indonesia. We were going to that conference in Indonesia.
And I think that gave me that kind of confidence
that twenty one or that poise to use the word
sam that you used. I think it was a benefit.
How did you reconcile then what happened with your public
PERSONA Well, I think you know, when you're going through it,
you just figure out how At least for me, I
(03:42):
had to figure out how to be out in the
world and growing up in politics, growing up in the
Clinton White House, where there was so much external stress
and pressure all the time, so much. I write extensively
about this notion of the shot and everything needing to
look right and look perfect. And you're telling a story,
I mean, and part that's what politics is, and public
(04:04):
services as you were telling the story, and and in
my case, it was telling the story for the American people,
particularly when I was representing my country around the world.
So I had that in me. And so when I
had to go through my own personal trauma, why while
there were certain things I didn't think about. You know,
I write the story of I didn't even get my
hair done. I didn't care about what I was wearing.
And I have to walk out to this press conference
(04:25):
and face cameras the first time in my life. And
it's amazing because you asked me. Maybe even today, I
would think, Okay, if I'm gonna get be on camera,
what am I gonna worry? And how am I going
to look? You're just trying to get through the day.
And I, in many of those instances, I was just
trying to get to the day and doing the best
I can. And maybe what you saw was poise and
made for me. It was just you know, trying to
(04:47):
make it through each period. How long did you feel
like you were just trying to make it through that day?
I want to say that I went through that period
of trauma. I would say a good decade. I mean,
I think it was. It was I had to get
off the treadmill, in forced off political treadmill when Hillary lost,
(05:08):
and um, you know, my dad would always tell me
when I was little, a good life is a balanced life.
But I did not follow that advice. I didn't not
live a balanced life. My life was my work. Everything
else was secondary. And then of course that changed when
my son was born. But even then, even when Jordan
was born, I there was always this push and pull,
you know, leaving home to go to work and your mom,
(05:30):
your child comes up to you and says, Mommy, where
are you going and when are you coming back? And
you know how that pulls at at your heart strings.
And so I would say a good solid decade. I
had to get professional help, and I had to really
find myself and learn about self care and go into
therapy and find God again. Took a while You've mentioned
(05:50):
your dad a few times now, and you opened your
book talking about your parents and your grandparents with some
really remarkable stories. But one thing that I think stuck
with both Sam and is your father had you call
airlines to like make reservations and make changes when you
were just a kid. Do you think that prepared you
for your career your work? I think everything my father
(06:11):
did and in part and I try to now understand it.
I didn't know that then, but I opened sharing the
truth about my family's life and that my father was
diagnosed with the renal failure when I was two, and
it's one of the reasons we moved Saudi Arabia from Michigan,
and he didn't know how long he had I mean,
the doctor basically said you had five to ten years
get your affairs in order. And I think about the
(06:35):
sense of hope and optimism my parents had, and my
little sister was conceived after that news. I mean, that
is how when I said the first one of the
first lines I wrote in the book was my father
was told he was dying, so he went out and
he lived, and I think he was trying to teach
us how to live without him and one, it was
an excuse to spend time with us, come to my office,
(06:56):
helped me make photo copies, sharpen the pencils, so it
was physically being in each other's space, but also preparing
us the airlines. Oh my god, that was terrifying. But
I got, you know, really good at and I really
enjoyed it, and that love of travel came from them.
You talk about advance work, which I love, and you
talk about how you think like advance work will help
(07:17):
you in any career. So I wanted to ask for
those non politicos out there to explain what advanced work
is and like what you meant by you think it
can help prepare you for any career. Well, you know,
first of all, I think advance is not even specific
necessarily to politics and serving in the White House or
a president, but it is when you work for a mission,
(07:37):
a brand, a company. In my case it was a
president and first lady, and you're sent out to prepare
for their visit, their trip, their speech, their meeting. The
reason I write in the book about and and your
responsible for everything, the logistics, where when they when the
car pulls up, where they go, where they walk, where
they sit, you know what they say, who they think.
And I always say that advanced people are assets for
(08:00):
whoever they work for. Whatever. You know, it doesn't matter
if you work for Nike, if you work for Bill Clinton,
if you are doing advance for them. The reason your
job is so important because you're often the first point
of interaction with your host. It's you know, there's this
great Lake story. I share the story about this woman
who had a chip on her shoulder about Hillary because
(08:21):
you know, we couldn't figure out why she didn't like her,
And it turned out because she was seated badly at
the White House at some fancy dinner, and we spent
so much time figuring out, you know, how to treat
people properly. They don't hold it against me as the
advance pers They hold it against the principle. And so
for me, it's like, you know, I I describe an
advanced person as kind of as a mcgeiver. You have
to be a problem solver. You have to learn how
(08:41):
to deal with people, logistics, confidence, policy, you get a
whole kind of mix of it. And I think it
if you can do advance well, you can do any
job in the world. Tell us a little bit about
the evolution of your relationship with Hillary, because you know,
you started out as this intern just kind of idolizing her,
and then became today one of her closest friends. One
(09:05):
of the most striking things about your book was watching
that relationship evolve. You know, Hillary Land is a big
place and there are lots of members. In fact, I
was on a zoom with somebody yesterday and she's you know,
I'm a member of hillary Land too. I mean, people
feel deeply connected. And I write that it's a place where,
you know, you don't just have professional support and encouragement,
(09:27):
but it it is personal too. It is the go
talk to my allergists or how's your mother doing? All
of these, you know, feelings of support, which frankly, I
think every professional environment should have. But one of the
things that I think is unique about Hillary Clinton, and
I'm so privileged to be in the circle. And it's
not just me, because there's I think there's many women
(09:48):
and some men to who feel like they have a
very similar relationship to Hillary. Not that I don't have
anything necessarily special, it's like I got that with Hillary too,
but she really is a talent kind to minor like
she knows what you're good at in some ways better
than even you know. Um, when we were in the Senate,
there was this young man who was an intern at
(10:09):
the time, and he wrote up, you know, a review
of a baseball game that our Senate staff had been
involved in. And Hillary, you know, it just happens to
see it and says, you know what, he's really good,
have him write more. I mean, he's like a nineteen
year old intern or whatever. Long story short, I mean,
she really cultivated that talent. He went on to write
(10:29):
to New York Times Best Selling Books with her. It is,
you know, one of our group member organizations they work
with said the thing that people don't know about Hillary
Clinton and she's a young leader, incubator, and every and
I really believe that's true. But for me, whenever I've
had personal challenges in my life, she has approached all
of those conversations as a friend first and as a
(10:51):
boss second. And I think it's one of the reasons why.
I mean that that's the loyalty that she inspires in people.
People stick around for a long time. It's a club
that comes with lifetime remember ship. And I'm lucky to
be part of that club. The day that Hillary lost
is etched in in all of our minds. I think
in terms of just I remember, you know, waking my
daughter and she was crying, And we all have our
(11:13):
stories of the shock of the election. No matter what
side you were on, what was it like for you though,
because it wasn't just about someone close to you losing,
it was also a change in your career trajectory. I
was so at that point in the campaign to remind
(11:33):
your listeners. Eleven days before the election, the FBI made
this unprecedented announcement saying that the investigation into her use
of emails of the State Department was being re explored
because of a laptop that my emails had been found on.
And that took me a very to live with. That
guilt of feeling as though I was responsible for her
(11:56):
loss took me a few years, a few years to
really and even now there are days where I there's
not a single day, ladies, that I wake up and
don't think about how much better this country would have
been if she had been president. In not a single day,
And that's something I know I have to live with
the rest of my life. Now. I have allowed myself
(12:16):
to forgive myself for the responsibility, but it doesn't mean
I don't I'm not reminded. What did you do that morning?
It m We did what we always do. We went
to work. She got in the van to go home,
and I got on the subway with two colleagues, um
and we went back to our headquarters in Brooklyn, And
it was all about just trying to help people navigate
(12:37):
figure out what they were shutting down the campaign, which
was a huge undertaking. Thousands of people worked there, and
so those of us were part of the leadership. I
had to, you know, help figure out how to help
help manage through that. So work was always the thing
that allowed you to compartmentalize the devastation, and that included
the day after the election. What did you do with
(12:59):
all that anger you were feeling? I kept it in
a lot of it. I just sort of, you know,
I just allowed myself. I was, you know, seething for
a period of time, and I just it was just,
you know, kind of festering. But as the parent of
a five year old, you didn't have a lot of
time to feel sorry for yourself or to be angry
(13:20):
or so much of my approach to the world. Right
after Hillary's loss was number one figuring out how to
help her my son, making sure he was going to
be okay. I had to deal with the fact that
my son was about to lose his father to federal prison.
So you didn't, I mean, maybe a lot of women
could relate to this. You don't spend a lot of
time thinking about your own feelings because you don't have
(13:41):
a lot of empty space to do that when you're
going through that. And now a quick break. One thing
about your book that really struck me with the acknowledgements,
and you wrote I want to thank Anthony for two things.
First and foremost for our extraordinary son, and second for
giving me an experience where I felt like I was
(14:03):
the most special person in the room. Why did you
write that? I thought it was important, very important to share.
I think you know, as we were writing the book
by the woman who is helping me do the research,
so that so many of the headlines about you are
what's wrong with her and what is she thinking? It's
one of the reasons I chose to write exactly what
I was thinking and to step back this idea that
(14:27):
the single most important thing in my life, that the
reason I live would not exist without the man who
put me through all of this. How can I not
have gratitude for that? And I do. And secondly, for
those of us who have experienced that love, that connection
with somebody, and I didn't. I didn't, I didn't want to.
(14:48):
Sort of, I shared how much I felt loved and
was in love when I first met Anthony, and that
and that feeling, I think it's pretty special. And so
I've known that, I've known what it's like to feel.
Then it's a pretty great feeling and I hope one
day I'll have that feeling again. It's a it's extraordinary.
(15:08):
I think it's important to have that in one's life
for balance and mental and emotional health. And he did
give me that. It was fleeting, as I write, it
was short, but I had it and it was worth it.
Do you still love Anthony? He is my partner and
he will be forever in raising our son, but that
you know we will, we will always have that. I
(15:30):
think the love that we had as a couple, that
love connection that we had when we first met, is
something that is another lifetime that cannot be anymore. Do
you remember when you felt that was gone? I don't.
That's a good question, an interesting question. I don't you know,
(15:51):
when you were in a relationship with somebody, and believe me,
there are plenty of people who say I don't get
I don't get it. How can you still talk to him?
How can you still see him? Or the opposite, like,
I get it, he is amazing, which people do say,
believe it or not. But um yea. When you're in
a relationship with somebody who has an issue, issues with
(16:11):
either mental health or addiction or behavior they can't control,
for so long, you're constantly in the caretaking like are
they gonna be okay? What are they doing? What's going on?
So when does it go from feeling like you're equal
partners in a relationship two what are they? How can
I help this person? And that happened fairly quickly. I
(16:33):
mean I wasn't even my child was still growing inside
my belly when I went from I had to figure
out how to help fix my spouse. So that happened
a very very long time, Agoes. I couldn't even tell
you any because it was so kind of gradual and
also over a very long period of time, and I
and I having a terminally ill father, I will was
a big part of it. I mean the first time
(16:56):
it happened. Yes, I deeply loved my husband, but beyond that,
I was also conscious of the fact that I did
not have a choice and my father was taken away
from me. He died when I was seventeen, and it
shattered me. I mean it shattered me. When my father died,
I couldn't talk. I couldn't even tell people he wasn't
living um for two years like that's how much it
(17:16):
affected me. So I was not going to do that
to my son. I was gonna give him. I was
going to do whatever I could to give him a
house with two parents. And I tried, I really tried.
Didn't work, but I tried, and and look, even now,
I'm amicable with his father, and we both come. We
come together for dinners and we do holidays together. And
(17:38):
I want him to know that he has loved and
supported and I want him to see that. I wanted
to see two parents who respect each other. It's really important.
What is your dating life like today, Well, Sam, I
wish I had some better news for you. It's nothing exciting.
I mean, I do share. I'm very open about this.
That I was. I was so controlled in my and thirties.
(18:00):
I anything that came in the way of work or
even a commitment I constantly ran from. I said no.
I I mean there are men who asked me out
who I regret not saying yes to now, Like what why?
What was I thinking? But it was because it was work.
It was Hillary, We're going to Brazil. I don't have
time for this, no distractions, but I I have. I
(18:23):
have a whole new approach to my life now, and
so I'm open and welcoming new relationships and and I'm
really I'm having a good time. Do you feel like
the rules are different for you, like you can't go
on Tinder because you are a public figure, or do
you feel like you can go on dating sites comfortably.
I've never been on a dating site. The whole thing
kind of scares me. First of all, I'm so bad
(18:46):
at anything technology related. I wouldn't even be able to
figure it out. I'm not exaggerating. So I'm kind of
maybe I'm still a romantic in some ways, Like I
just would love to just meet something like just you know,
and I know to New York it's really hard to
take a slightly different twist on this about relationships. You
put work first most of your life, and you have
(19:07):
Jordan's and you've been really busy. Who are your friends? Like?
Who do you hang out with? I make time for friends,
and I again, I'm also very public with this. I
I learned a hard lesson in friendship. But when I
went through my first um drama or scandal or whatever
you want to call it with Anthony, I was surprised
at the conditions that friends had put on our friendship,
(19:29):
that people who didn't want to. You know, there's two
chapters in the book Shame, Shame Go Away and Elephant
in the Room that were very hard in the in
that moment, you know, to go from being this really
outgoing child, which I was, and I always had a
lot of friends growing up, and then to not know
where you're welcome, you know, for so long. When I
walked into a party, I thought, who here? Doesn't want
(19:51):
me here? And that's hard to do when it's your
friends who do it to you, And so I had to.
I had to let go of the control that and
I also found a whole new group of friends. And
it's one of the reasons why Anna Wintour is a
character in my story and in my life because what
she gave me. And it's funny. I was on a
zoom yesterday and the woman was like, what do you
(20:13):
think this is? You know about fashion and politics? And
I said no, I think she just was a good friend.
And so many of my particularly girlfriends in my life
who I reach out to, our people who she introduced
me to in New York, not in politics, some people
in the fashion world, um, but not all you know,
(20:33):
and uh, the theater and just a really interesting group
of creative people who I find fascinating and I enjoy
their company. But in the olden days, I would be
busy and I'd land at ten o'clock and I would
text you Sam and say, are you free right now
for dinner? And I mean it was ridiculous, and hindsight
even I think it's ridiculous. And now I just will
(20:55):
text a friend and say, how are you doing, how
is you know, let's see each other. I never used
to do that before, and I think it's very important
to do that. It's interesting because when when I was
reading the book, I sort of started worrying about you,
because suddenly you have this empty schedule. So it wasn't
like you went from having a really tough job to
going to you know, instead of being home at ten
(21:15):
o'clock at now you were home at six. You went
from doing that to suddenly having a job as an
author and a podcaster. So I mean having those days
that you have to structure. What has that been like
for you? The last two and a half months for
the book tour have been insanity. But for that, even
when I was in the writing period, and even as
(21:37):
I was working on these other projects with Hillary, which
I'm lucky to still be doing several very exciting things
with her, I am so much better about self care, Ladies.
I will take a one hour hike or all just
go and just sit and read, or all I will
get a massage, things, all these things that I felt
like we're selfish to do, Like who is time to
get a massage? You know what I do? Or even think?
(22:00):
I mean, I think I went when I was working
in the Senate. This is not an exaggeration, and this
is frivolous, but I think I went like two years
not getting a manicure, because that's thirty minutes I don't have,
and so just to go to that balance. I go
visit my mom on the weekends, and you know, it's
the ability to say no, which I didn't couldn't do before.
(22:21):
You know. I remember, I have not shared this story
and I'm still so traumatized by it. When Jordan was
born and Hillary was Secretary of State and um I
was living in New York, she was in Washington. I
remember she called me um and um I came home
and she said there was a crisis she had to
get on from me right away about some rural disaster.
(22:44):
I remember walking into my apartment and my babysitter was
there and she tells me whether she points to Jordan's
head because he had fallen at the playground and he
had to be actually had a bump on his head,
and she's point eating and she's like, but I got him.
And I remember standing in the entrance to the nursery
(23:05):
and I could have done two things. One like, I said,
I gotta call you back, or no, let's talk about Libya.
And you know what I did. I talked about Libya,
talked about Libya. And the judgment I made in that
moment was, Okay, he's got a bump, He's not crying.
Stella's there, Okay, let me deal with this crisis and
(23:25):
then I'll go back and I'll cuddle with him. But
I still have guilt that I did that, that was
the choice I made. I have guilt about not being present,
more present for him in his early I was not.
I didn't see his first steps. I missed his first word.
I know that now. On the flip side, every time
I tell my mom the story, she said, you know,
(23:47):
he's not gonna remember any of this. What he remembers
is now now at ten years old. Like literally in
the first day when they came in to set up,
when Nora o'donald came to interview me right here for
CBS Sunday, Jordan walks out of his room. He says, Mommy,
are you filming a TikTok today? And he said, no, no, no,
(24:07):
I'm doing an interview with a woman named Nora O'Donnell
for CBS. He's like, ah, whatever, like so uninterested, but
now he cares when are you going and when are
you coming back? And he remembers, So, you didn't get
a pedicure, manicure for for two years and year in
the Senate, and you were working, you know, probably every
waking hour for many years in your twenties and thirties.
(24:30):
Would you change that now? Well, I mean not to
give away the ending, but of course I say I
would do it all over again, So probably not. I mean,
but that's how I was. One of the many ways
I was successful, you know, I was starting at one.
I was prepared. I wasn't the best. I wasn't the smartest,
I wasn't the prettiest. I wasn't ever the is is
(24:52):
ist of anything. But I was prepared to at work
anybody else always. And now quick break, I want to
go back to this unstructured life thing because there's something
I don't buy. I feel like it still must be
hard for you sometimes to wake up and not necessarily
know what the day looks like. I mean, right now
(25:13):
is different because you're on your book tour and you're packed, right,
But what about those days that are not so full.
I was talking to my boss before I got on
with you guys. The number of times I have said
to her on calls, because we still talk at least
once a day, usually more than once. And the number
of times over the last since what is that five years?
(25:34):
No one Oh my god, almost six years the number
of times I've said, Toronto phone, how is it that
you are technically unemployed and all of us are exhausted
and overworked? Like what is happening? And that's the thing.
Our tagline that she and I and I don't even
think it's I left it in the book is it's
always an adventure. There is always something happening. There's always
(25:57):
a book or a podcast. But I'm better, you know.
I will take time and go to the gym, which
I didn't do until after six And I will take
time just to go see my family, Like who does that?
Guess what normal people do that go see their family
for no reason. And she's gotten you know good about
that too. God, in night, when I walked in admiring
(26:20):
this woman, you think I would have said to her,
I have a family wedding. No, I would say, send
meet Argentina. So anyway, something that just comes with experience
to having that confidence and in yourself and in the relationship.
Do you tell her now when you're busy if she
calls and you're busy, oh yeah, all the time, all
the time, and and and vice versa. You know, she'll
text me and say can you call, and I'll say,
I've got this, Can I call it four? Or five?
(26:42):
But I didn't used to do that in me in
the olden days. In the old Oh my god, I
would be I don't know, I got on Ferris Wheel
with my son, like, yeah, I got it, okay. Um.
I would be at brunches and have a thing in
my ear and just do both. I was never really
present for most social things, uh that I was at.
(27:05):
What is your relationship like with money? It's something we
talked about a lot on this show as women and money.
And you have seen so much of the world, and
I wonder if that's also changed how you think about
women and money. I'm so glad you're asking me this,
and I'll tell you why. I have a lot of
insecurity about money and um. I think in part because
I grew up comfortably middle class. We never you know,
(27:27):
my parents by no means were rich, but they were.
They were very smart about how they spent their money.
But you know, I was in public service from the
day I walked out. My first job was twenty seven
thousand dollars five seven thillars a year. That was a
lot of money from back then. And when you work
in government, there's a cap. When I left, I would
say five years after I left, uh g W. I
(27:49):
went to school in Washington, I was making the least
amount of money by far, of all of my peers.
I think raising a ten year old child on your
own in New York City, I think there's always this
feeling of is there are going to be enough? I
think it's very expensive. Not think it is very expensive
to live in Manhattan to send your child to private school.
And and maybe this is a thing. You know, there's
(28:10):
this book called Why We Can't Sleep. I can't remember
the author's name, but it's about women. Apparently it's also
a generational thing about women in their forties. That you
get to this point where you are, you are constantly
worried about. But it's just the way we were raised,
and you know how our minds were kind of raised
(28:31):
in the decade of excess in the eighties. And to
now realize you're in your forties, and now do I
make enough money that I could, you know, retire by
the way, it's very depressing, but also great. And everything
she said is right and accurate, and she's brilliant. So
I have to figure that out. I mean, know, one
day I have to grow up and you know, you know,
(28:52):
you know, think about finding my financial security. I didn't
have to do that. I didn't not they didn't have
to do it. I didn't care about it enough before
are And it's different when you have a child. Where
do you get financial advice? I don't know, what are
you guys doing after this? I mean I realized that
that's this is really bad. I mean, Chase, I should
(29:14):
get a financial advisor. Probably your parents were academics, Like,
did you ever talk about money growing up? We didn't,
but my parents, my mother was My mother was a refugee.
She had her family to leave India. They fled for
Pakistan on that ship. She that mentality stayed whether she wasn't.
She was frugal. Is that the right word. I want
(29:34):
to make sure it's the right word. She was, you know,
careful about how she spent our money, so it would
be she always shopped in the sales section just because
it was why would I buy something for forty dollars
when I can get something for twenty nine. And by
the way, I think was also like part of the
you know, I got a great deal kind of a thing.
(29:54):
But so you know, there were and they were disciplined.
So much about our life was disciplined. It was I
can get one barbie. Could they afford to? Sure? But
you're getting one barbie. You have to know what it
is to appreciate and and and value certain things. So
I didn't grow up worried about money per se, but
(30:15):
I knew that it wasn't a limitless supply. One of
the things you're known for is your sense of style.
Where do you shop today? I don't shop very often.
I'm so lucky that I have I do have friends
who are designers. I often wear. You know, one thing
is I don't. I'm not the current latest style person
like I'm at that. I know my body well enough
(30:37):
to say this is what looks good on me, and
this is you know what I'm going to buy. But
I have a few friends who are designers, and you know,
I like to support them or all. You know, go
on the website. I I just want to announce I
go online. I go online. I know how to do that.
I go on Netta Porte, I go on Moda. I
want to go back and ask the question that I
(30:57):
meant to ask a follow up to Early on you
talked about your father being diagnosed with renal failure when
you were too. You mentioned that was part of the
catalyst to move from Michigan to Saudi Arabia. I think
that um for my parents. You know, I can't remember
if I shared this, but my father was up for
(31:18):
a sabbatical. He was a professor at the Western Mistigan University,
and an option to go to Italy or he had
the option to go to Saudi Arabia. And I think
when he realized he had such little time left, he thought,
let's go explore the world. Let's you know, he always
loved to travel. They could have picked Italy, but I
think in the end, because of his work, you know,
(31:38):
he studied the condition of Muslims around the world who
lived as minorities, it was more appealing. I think if
he hadn't gotten the diagnosis, they would have gone to Italy,
no question, because it only would have been, you know,
a fun adventure. But this idea of doing something meaningful,
teaching their children about their roots, their faith, a really
serious um kind of approach to the world, and then
(31:58):
gave them the ability to bathe. They since Atti Maraybi
and travel around the world. For them, it was both
and they got to do both and that way. You're
a devout Muslim. What role has religion played in your life,
especially more recently. Oh, it has saved me, I mean
to have I mean, what is Muslim prayer? What is
it to be a devout Muslim? I mean Muslim prayer
is basically stepping back from the world. It's a meditation.
(32:20):
It is a conversation between you and a higher power.
It's thoughts, reflections, intentions, you just it forces you to
step back from whatever you're in and take a moment
to think. And I think for me, when you boil
down what Islam is at its essence, which is the
very first word that we revealed and our faith was
(32:41):
read educate yourself and you know, think and reflecting. So
for me, it's always it's been my guiding principle, my
guiding light. It's what it's my It centers me. It
really does center me. I'm grateful for it and we
should go to the speed round. Now what are you reading.
I'm reading Andrew Nowise book, her memoir, which is excellent.
By the way, you've met so many people, who is
(33:04):
one person you have yet to meet that you'd like
to Honestly, I mean, isn't that say something about what
it is to work Phillery Clinton. I can't think of
a living person that I haven't that that i'd like
to meet. Does anyone leave you starstruck? Not anymore? Back
in the nineties, yes, I cannot think of the last time.
Maybe Bruce Springsteen. Maybe when I went to the Bruce
(33:25):
Springsteen on Broadway, I was a little. I was surprised
that I was a little, but you know not, No,
I can't because I it's the one big lesson I learned.
Celebrities just they're human. I mean, there are human beings
like every you know, everybody else. I mean, Mandela is
sort of next level. I mean, there was just being
(33:47):
with him, was just being on a different planet. Really
just felt so there's he had a oh just a
glow and aura. You just felt so lucky to be
in his in his space. But anyone living today, I can't.
I can't think of. What is your nighttime routine? Well,
(34:07):
it is I like to I'd like to read a
couple of chapters if I go to bed. So we
try to eat dinner at six thirty. I try to
cook sometimes most of the time I try to cook.
And uh, it's you know, bedtime rituals and our son,
my son, he takes a shower, bath or shower or whatever,
and we do some We like to read together in
bed thirty minutes every night. We read together, me and
Jordan's in bed before he goes to sleep. And then
(34:30):
I'll try to do my own reading. And I was
I'll watch a show, uh, and then I fall asleep
pretty early. What is your favorite item in your closet?
Probably my um my Gucci leopard dress. Yeah. I haven't
warned very much with the blue ribbon. I just love it.
It's like every time I wear like, I look good
in this. Where is someplace you would like to vacation?
(34:54):
The Maldives high on my bucket list and it's not
going to exist in what ten years. So high on
my bucket list is the Maldives. So Luke Burns has
been listening. He joins us every episode with Our with
a male Perspective, and he's been listening to our conversation
and uh, let him take it away. I want you
(35:14):
to go back to the time where like the news
first broke about your husband, you know, and and that
whole ordeal was just like and you didn't get a
chance to speak to anybody, but then you gotta I
guess a quiet moment with Hilary because now you guys
kind of share the same common bond. What was that conversation? Like, uh, well,
(35:37):
as I um, people often don't remember that moment in
that I mean I do, and maybe some people do.
But I mean I was a newly wed, I was
newly pregnant. I woke up in bucking a palace or
writing you a letter to my husband on that stationary.
I mean, I wasn't just living a good life. I
was living a dream. I was living a dream. The
story breaks, and I had been so I was so
(36:00):
cited about being pregnant. You know, Jordan was a complete accident.
When after we got married, people told us, you know,
you're both of your sold You're not gonna ever, it's
gonna be impossible for you to have children. So he
really was a blessing. So to have that to be
in the happiest moment of our lives than to have
this shock, you know, she really that first conversation, more
(36:22):
of my trauma, Lou was about the fact that I
was pregnant, and I wasn't able to share that with people.
I was very traumatized about that. I mean, and I
that is a trauma I know stays with me today.
I walk around here, I'll walk around the streets and
I'll just want just randomly say I'm pregnant. Yesterday, I
do it, last week, I do it. Is so that
(36:43):
because I could never say those words. It's like my
brain reminding me so to me, so much of it
centered around this life I was bringing into the world.
And even if she had judgments about my decision, because
I think, I know, people you know, feel like we
do this bond, but every situation is so different. I mean,
(37:04):
obviously for her it was I mean, it was the
future of our nation, our democracy at that moment. I
mean it it could have been a constitutional crisis if
she chose to leave, which she chose not to do
for a variety of reasons which she has explained in detail.
And the fact that you know she deeply loved and
loves her husband, and you know, their their life and
(37:25):
their marriages you know, out in the world. For me,
it was I'm a new bride. I'm I'm you know,
we're you know, starting a new life together. We're creating
a life in the world together. And she just was
my friend. I'm here, whatever you I'm here. And I
think the fact that I walked into that hotel room
in Abu Dhabi and she had asked my mother, she
(37:46):
had flown my mother and my brother from London and
Saudi Arabia to be there. She gave me what she
thought I needed most. She gave me family, and she
was right, and everything else didn't matter, you know, And
I and I so will always be grateful to her
for that. I'm so happy I voted for her. I mean, look,
(38:07):
I say this, you know, one of my my goals
when people walk away from the book is this, you know,
that recognize an understanding that she would have been an
extraordinary leader and president because she wasn't is she is
an extraordinary leader and she will continue to be so
long as she graces us. Her poise and the way
she talks about her situation is so inspiring to me,
(38:32):
it really is. I Mean, she's gone through a lot,
like she lived on this like twenty year roller coaster
in the public eye, where she went from being a
young woman to an amazing professional to a wife and
a mom, to losing a lot of her professional career
when Hillary lost, to losing her marriage, and and she's
(38:53):
just got this grace and his acceptance and also this
like hope. You can tell there's so much hope. Yeah, No,
I really like her, like I want to be her friend.
I mean, I think that one of one of the
things that that I also learned from. I think the
way she talked about Anthony Weiner and the way that
(39:14):
so many people are dealing with you know, bad exes
and bad divorces. But in many ways, you know, nothing
could be worse than what she's gone through, but she
still manages to have not only a very good relationship
with him, but she talks about him so respectfully, which
says so much about her and what kind of parents
(39:34):
she is. I completely agree, not even just what kind
of a parent, but what kind of a person, right,
Like I mean, I think, like I think a lot
of it has to do with Jordan, as she mentioned
that like this, you know, Anthony. Without Anthony, she wouldn't
have the core of her life, her soul, her son.
But you know, I think that Huma is someone just
from our brief interaction that really probably looks for and
(39:56):
holds onto what is good in people. Yeah, it is
a lesson for anyone who has an X and kids
and how you how you move forward, how you talk
about that person, even if they've committed a crime, even
if they've done something horrendous. I just think it's it's
incredible and it's really a parenting lesson in so many ways.
(40:18):
And the one thing I got wrong was I didn't
realize how active she is with Hillary today. It's not
just that she's writing a book. I mean she has
like a full time job with Hillary, which I really
didn't understand. Yeah, And I mean it is like if
you if you take a step back and think about it, like,
of course, Hillary is probably still going full steam ahead,
because Hillary is never going to stop, right, Like, She's
probably still like she's a public servant servant, right, so
(40:40):
she's still serving the public. And I think Huma, you know,
is her partner, and that really, I mean, Huma really
is Hillary is professional partner. Yeah, that's a great way
to describe it. Thanks for listening to What's her Story
with Sam and Amy. We would appreciate it if you
leave her review wherever you get your podcasts and of course,
connect with on social media at What's Her Story podcast.
(41:03):
What's Her Story with Sam and Amy is powered by
my company, The Riveter at The Riveter dot c O
and Sam's company, park Place Payments at park place payments
dot com. Thanks to our producer Stacy Parra and our
male perspective, Blue Burns
Hi, I'm Sam Edis and I'm Amy Nelson. Welcome to
What's Her Story? With Sam and Amy. This is a
show about the world's most remarkable women, their professional and
personal journeys. Together, we'll hear from Gold medalists, best selling authors,
and leaders of the world's most iconic brands. Listen every
(00:22):
Thursday or join the conversation anytime on Instagram at What's
Her Story Podcast. Today, We're so excited to welcome Homa
Aberdeen to the show. Huma started as an intern in
the Clinton White House at the age of just one.
She went on to work as a leader on Hillary
Clinton's team during her time in the U. S. Senate,
(00:43):
as Secretary of State and later as vice chairwoman of
her presidential campaign. Huma just published her first book, the
best selling Story of her life Both and one of
the things that strikes me about you is your poise.
And it's hard for me to think of anyone, truly,
(01:05):
anyone who's as poised and gracious and handles themselves as
well in public. And so I think because of that,
this sort of soap opera you found yourself in was
even that much more startling. The contrast between Anthony's transgression
(01:27):
and who you are. How did you reconcile that. First
of all, I've been asked a lot of questions of
my book. No one asked me this question. But I
was actually quite clutsy growing up. I was I was
the cut up in our family, and my my older
brother and sister were you know, super you know, they
did everything right. And my little sister, um Sam, who
(01:48):
you know, was always the perfect princess, the beautiful, and
I was the one right in the middle who every
time we had a family play that we put on
from my parents, I was always like my brother was
both Han Solo and Luke Skywalker, and my older sister
was Princess Leah and sometimes him, but my little sisters
Princess Lea, and I was always Chewbacca because I was
(02:11):
always the one breaking things that I wand around. So
I think it's so funny when people say to me
as an adult that they think I'm poised, because I
take that as a It's not how I see myself,
you know how. Sometimes we perceive ourselves in certain ways,
and I've never sort of broken out of that image
that I had of myself. But I do think I
give credit to my father and mother because from a
(02:34):
very young age they forced me out into the world. Um,
you know, I share stories in the book about being
seven and eight and and being sent down the hall
to talk to my father's academic friends and talk about
my poetry and my writing, and and being in adult
conversations and being surrounded by adult conversations at the time
(02:56):
was just normal for me. But now that I'm raising
I have a ten year old boy, and you know,
all three of us are talking about our children, and
maybe it's a sort of a different way. I think
in some ways, Uh, certain parents like they their children
have their lives, and they they're scheduled, and then they
have their own professional lives. In my house, we were
just along for the ride. It's my dad's going to
(03:17):
a conference Indonesia. We were going to that conference in Indonesia.
And I think that gave me that kind of confidence
that twenty one or that poise to use the word
sam that you used. I think it was a benefit.
How did you reconcile then what happened with your public
PERSONA Well, I think you know, when you're going through it,
you just figure out how At least for me, I
(03:42):
had to figure out how to be out in the
world and growing up in politics, growing up in the
Clinton White House, where there was so much external stress
and pressure all the time, so much. I write extensively
about this notion of the shot and everything needing to
look right and look perfect. And you're telling a story,
I mean, and part that's what politics is, and public
(04:04):
services as you were telling the story, and and in
my case, it was telling the story for the American people,
particularly when I was representing my country around the world.
So I had that in me. And so when I
had to go through my own personal trauma, why while
there were certain things I didn't think about. You know,
I write the story of I didn't even get my
hair done. I didn't care about what I was wearing.
And I have to walk out to this press conference
(04:25):
and face cameras the first time in my life. And
it's amazing because you asked me. Maybe even today, I
would think, Okay, if I'm gonna get be on camera,
what am I gonna worry? And how am I going
to look? You're just trying to get through the day.
And I, in many of those instances, I was just
trying to get to the day and doing the best
I can. And maybe what you saw was poise and
made for me. It was just you know, trying to
(04:47):
make it through each period. How long did you feel
like you were just trying to make it through that day?
I want to say that I went through that period
of trauma. I would say a good decade. I mean,
I think it was. It was I had to get
off the treadmill, in forced off political treadmill when Hillary lost,
(05:08):
and um, you know, my dad would always tell me
when I was little, a good life is a balanced life.
But I did not follow that advice. I didn't not
live a balanced life. My life was my work. Everything
else was secondary. And then of course that changed when
my son was born. But even then, even when Jordan
was born, I there was always this push and pull,
you know, leaving home to go to work and your mom,
(05:30):
your child comes up to you and says, Mommy, where
are you going and when are you coming back? And
you know how that pulls at at your heart strings.
And so I would say a good solid decade. I
had to get professional help, and I had to really
find myself and learn about self care and go into
therapy and find God again. Took a while You've mentioned
(05:50):
your dad a few times now, and you opened your
book talking about your parents and your grandparents with some
really remarkable stories. But one thing that I think stuck
with both Sam and is your father had you call
airlines to like make reservations and make changes when you
were just a kid. Do you think that prepared you
for your career your work? I think everything my father
(06:11):
did and in part and I try to now understand it.
I didn't know that then, but I opened sharing the
truth about my family's life and that my father was
diagnosed with the renal failure when I was two, and
it's one of the reasons we moved Saudi Arabia from Michigan,
and he didn't know how long he had I mean,
the doctor basically said you had five to ten years
get your affairs in order. And I think about the
(06:35):
sense of hope and optimism my parents had, and my
little sister was conceived after that news. I mean, that
is how when I said the first one of the
first lines I wrote in the book was my father
was told he was dying, so he went out and
he lived, and I think he was trying to teach
us how to live without him and one, it was
an excuse to spend time with us, come to my office,
(06:56):
helped me make photo copies, sharpen the pencils, so it
was physically being in each other's space, but also preparing
us the airlines. Oh my god, that was terrifying. But
I got, you know, really good at and I really
enjoyed it, and that love of travel came from them.
You talk about advance work, which I love, and you
talk about how you think like advance work will help
(07:17):
you in any career. So I wanted to ask for
those non politicos out there to explain what advanced work
is and like what you meant by you think it
can help prepare you for any career. Well, you know,
first of all, I think advance is not even specific
necessarily to politics and serving in the White House or
a president, but it is when you work for a mission,
(07:37):
a brand, a company. In my case it was a
president and first lady, and you're sent out to prepare
for their visit, their trip, their speech, their meeting. The
reason I write in the book about and and your
responsible for everything, the logistics, where when they when the
car pulls up, where they go, where they walk, where
they sit, you know what they say, who they think.
And I always say that advanced people are assets for
(08:00):
whoever they work for. Whatever. You know, it doesn't matter
if you work for Nike, if you work for Bill Clinton,
if you are doing advance for them. The reason your
job is so important because you're often the first point
of interaction with your host. It's you know, there's this
great Lake story. I share the story about this woman
who had a chip on her shoulder about Hillary because
(08:21):
you know, we couldn't figure out why she didn't like her,
And it turned out because she was seated badly at
the White House at some fancy dinner, and we spent
so much time figuring out, you know, how to treat
people properly. They don't hold it against me as the
advance pers They hold it against the principle. And so
for me, it's like, you know, I I describe an
advanced person as kind of as a mcgeiver. You have
to be a problem solver. You have to learn how
(08:41):
to deal with people, logistics, confidence, policy, you get a
whole kind of mix of it. And I think it
if you can do advance well, you can do any
job in the world. Tell us a little bit about
the evolution of your relationship with Hillary, because you know,
you started out as this intern just kind of idolizing her,
and then became today one of her closest friends. One
(09:05):
of the most striking things about your book was watching
that relationship evolve. You know, Hillary Land is a big
place and there are lots of members. In fact, I
was on a zoom with somebody yesterday and she's you know,
I'm a member of hillary Land too. I mean, people
feel deeply connected. And I write that it's a place where,
you know, you don't just have professional support and encouragement,
(09:27):
but it it is personal too. It is the go
talk to my allergists or how's your mother doing? All
of these, you know, feelings of support, which frankly, I
think every professional environment should have. But one of the
things that I think is unique about Hillary Clinton, and
I'm so privileged to be in the circle. And it's
not just me, because there's I think there's many women
(09:48):
and some men to who feel like they have a
very similar relationship to Hillary. Not that I don't have
anything necessarily special, it's like I got that with Hillary too,
but she really is a talent kind to minor like
she knows what you're good at in some ways better
than even you know. Um, when we were in the Senate,
there was this young man who was an intern at
(10:09):
the time, and he wrote up, you know, a review
of a baseball game that our Senate staff had been
involved in. And Hillary, you know, it just happens to
see it and says, you know what, he's really good,
have him write more. I mean, he's like a nineteen
year old intern or whatever. Long story short, I mean,
she really cultivated that talent. He went on to write
(10:29):
to New York Times Best Selling Books with her. It is,
you know, one of our group member organizations they work
with said the thing that people don't know about Hillary
Clinton and she's a young leader, incubator, and every and
I really believe that's true. But for me, whenever I've
had personal challenges in my life, she has approached all
of those conversations as a friend first and as a
(10:51):
boss second. And I think it's one of the reasons why.
I mean that that's the loyalty that she inspires in people.
People stick around for a long time. It's a club
that comes with lifetime remember ship. And I'm lucky to
be part of that club. The day that Hillary lost
is etched in in all of our minds. I think
in terms of just I remember, you know, waking my
daughter and she was crying, And we all have our
(11:13):
stories of the shock of the election. No matter what
side you were on, what was it like for you though,
because it wasn't just about someone close to you losing,
it was also a change in your career trajectory. I
was so at that point in the campaign to remind
(11:33):
your listeners. Eleven days before the election, the FBI made
this unprecedented announcement saying that the investigation into her use
of emails of the State Department was being re explored
because of a laptop that my emails had been found on.
And that took me a very to live with. That
guilt of feeling as though I was responsible for her
(11:56):
loss took me a few years, a few years to
really and even now there are days where I there's
not a single day, ladies, that I wake up and
don't think about how much better this country would have
been if she had been president. In not a single day,
And that's something I know I have to live with
the rest of my life. Now. I have allowed myself
(12:16):
to forgive myself for the responsibility, but it doesn't mean
I don't I'm not reminded. What did you do that morning?
It m We did what we always do. We went
to work. She got in the van to go home,
and I got on the subway with two colleagues, um
and we went back to our headquarters in Brooklyn, And
it was all about just trying to help people navigate
(12:37):
figure out what they were shutting down the campaign, which
was a huge undertaking. Thousands of people worked there, and
so those of us were part of the leadership. I
had to, you know, help figure out how to help
help manage through that. So work was always the thing
that allowed you to compartmentalize the devastation, and that included
the day after the election. What did you do with
(12:59):
all that anger you were feeling? I kept it in
a lot of it. I just sort of, you know,
I just allowed myself. I was, you know, seething for
a period of time, and I just it was just,
you know, kind of festering. But as the parent of
a five year old, you didn't have a lot of
time to feel sorry for yourself or to be angry
(13:20):
or so much of my approach to the world. Right
after Hillary's loss was number one figuring out how to
help her my son, making sure he was going to
be okay. I had to deal with the fact that
my son was about to lose his father to federal prison.
So you didn't, I mean, maybe a lot of women
could relate to this. You don't spend a lot of
time thinking about your own feelings because you don't have
(13:41):
a lot of empty space to do that when you're
going through that. And now a quick break. One thing
about your book that really struck me with the acknowledgements,
and you wrote I want to thank Anthony for two things.
First and foremost for our extraordinary son, and second for
giving me an experience where I felt like I was
(14:03):
the most special person in the room. Why did you
write that? I thought it was important, very important to share.
I think you know, as we were writing the book
by the woman who is helping me do the research,
so that so many of the headlines about you are
what's wrong with her and what is she thinking? It's
one of the reasons I chose to write exactly what
I was thinking and to step back this idea that
(14:27):
the single most important thing in my life, that the
reason I live would not exist without the man who
put me through all of this. How can I not
have gratitude for that? And I do. And secondly, for
those of us who have experienced that love, that connection
with somebody, and I didn't. I didn't, I didn't want to.
(14:48):
Sort of, I shared how much I felt loved and
was in love when I first met Anthony, and that
and that feeling, I think it's pretty special. And so
I've known that, I've known what it's like to feel.
Then it's a pretty great feeling and I hope one
day I'll have that feeling again. It's a it's extraordinary.
(15:08):
I think it's important to have that in one's life
for balance and mental and emotional health. And he did
give me that. It was fleeting, as I write, it
was short, but I had it and it was worth it.
Do you still love Anthony? He is my partner and
he will be forever in raising our son, but that
you know we will, we will always have that. I
(15:30):
think the love that we had as a couple, that
love connection that we had when we first met, is
something that is another lifetime that cannot be anymore. Do
you remember when you felt that was gone? I don't.
That's a good question, an interesting question. I don't you know,
(15:51):
when you were in a relationship with somebody, and believe me,
there are plenty of people who say I don't get
I don't get it. How can you still talk to him?
How can you still see him? Or the opposite, like,
I get it, he is amazing, which people do say,
believe it or not. But um yea. When you're in
a relationship with somebody who has an issue, issues with
(16:11):
either mental health or addiction or behavior they can't control,
for so long, you're constantly in the caretaking like are
they gonna be okay? What are they doing? What's going on?
So when does it go from feeling like you're equal
partners in a relationship two what are they? How can
I help this person? And that happened fairly quickly. I
(16:33):
mean I wasn't even my child was still growing inside
my belly when I went from I had to figure
out how to help fix my spouse. So that happened
a very very long time, Agoes. I couldn't even tell
you any because it was so kind of gradual and
also over a very long period of time, and I
and I having a terminally ill father, I will was
a big part of it. I mean the first time
(16:56):
it happened. Yes, I deeply loved my husband, but beyond that,
I was also conscious of the fact that I did
not have a choice and my father was taken away
from me. He died when I was seventeen, and it
shattered me. I mean it shattered me. When my father died,
I couldn't talk. I couldn't even tell people he wasn't
living um for two years like that's how much it
(17:16):
affected me. So I was not going to do that
to my son. I was gonna give him. I was
going to do whatever I could to give him a
house with two parents. And I tried, I really tried.
Didn't work, but I tried, and and look, even now,
I'm amicable with his father, and we both come. We
come together for dinners and we do holidays together. And
(17:38):
I want him to know that he has loved and
supported and I want him to see that. I wanted
to see two parents who respect each other. It's really important.
What is your dating life like today, Well, Sam, I
wish I had some better news for you. It's nothing exciting.
I mean, I do share. I'm very open about this.
That I was. I was so controlled in my and thirties.
(18:00):
I anything that came in the way of work or
even a commitment I constantly ran from. I said no.
I I mean there are men who asked me out
who I regret not saying yes to now, Like what why?
What was I thinking? But it was because it was work.
It was Hillary, We're going to Brazil. I don't have
time for this, no distractions, but I I have. I
(18:23):
have a whole new approach to my life now, and
so I'm open and welcoming new relationships and and I'm
really I'm having a good time. Do you feel like
the rules are different for you, like you can't go
on Tinder because you are a public figure, or do
you feel like you can go on dating sites comfortably.
I've never been on a dating site. The whole thing
kind of scares me. First of all, I'm so bad
(18:46):
at anything technology related. I wouldn't even be able to
figure it out. I'm not exaggerating. So I'm kind of
maybe I'm still a romantic in some ways, Like I
just would love to just meet something like just you know,
and I know to New York it's really hard to
take a slightly different twist on this about relationships. You
put work first most of your life, and you have
(19:07):
Jordan's and you've been really busy. Who are your friends? Like?
Who do you hang out with? I make time for friends,
and I again, I'm also very public with this. I
I learned a hard lesson in friendship. But when I
went through my first um drama or scandal or whatever
you want to call it with Anthony, I was surprised
at the conditions that friends had put on our friendship,
(19:29):
that people who didn't want to. You know, there's two
chapters in the book Shame, Shame Go Away and Elephant
in the Room that were very hard in the in
that moment, you know, to go from being this really
outgoing child, which I was, and I always had a
lot of friends growing up, and then to not know
where you're welcome, you know, for so long. When I
walked into a party, I thought, who here? Doesn't want
(19:51):
me here? And that's hard to do when it's your
friends who do it to you, And so I had to.
I had to let go of the control that and
I also found a whole new group of friends. And
it's one of the reasons why Anna Wintour is a
character in my story and in my life because what
she gave me. And it's funny. I was on a
zoom yesterday and the woman was like, what do you
(20:13):
think this is? You know about fashion and politics? And
I said no, I think she just was a good friend.
And so many of my particularly girlfriends in my life
who I reach out to, our people who she introduced
me to in New York, not in politics, some people
in the fashion world, um, but not all you know,
(20:33):
and uh, the theater and just a really interesting group
of creative people who I find fascinating and I enjoy
their company. But in the olden days, I would be
busy and I'd land at ten o'clock and I would
text you Sam and say, are you free right now
for dinner? And I mean it was ridiculous, and hindsight
even I think it's ridiculous. And now I just will
(20:55):
text a friend and say, how are you doing, how
is you know, let's see each other. I never used
to do that before, and I think it's very important
to do that. It's interesting because when when I was
reading the book, I sort of started worrying about you,
because suddenly you have this empty schedule. So it wasn't
like you went from having a really tough job to
going to you know, instead of being home at ten
(21:15):
o'clock at now you were home at six. You went
from doing that to suddenly having a job as an
author and a podcaster. So I mean having those days
that you have to structure. What has that been like
for you? The last two and a half months for
the book tour have been insanity. But for that, even
when I was in the writing period, and even as
(21:37):
I was working on these other projects with Hillary, which
I'm lucky to still be doing several very exciting things
with her, I am so much better about self care, Ladies.
I will take a one hour hike or all just
go and just sit and read, or all I will
get a massage, things, all these things that I felt
like we're selfish to do, Like who is time to
get a massage? You know what I do? Or even think?
(22:00):
I mean, I think I went when I was working
in the Senate. This is not an exaggeration, and this
is frivolous, but I think I went like two years
not getting a manicure, because that's thirty minutes I don't have,
and so just to go to that balance. I go
visit my mom on the weekends, and you know, it's
the ability to say no, which I didn't couldn't do before.
(22:21):
You know. I remember, I have not shared this story
and I'm still so traumatized by it. When Jordan was
born and Hillary was Secretary of State and um I
was living in New York, she was in Washington. I
remember she called me um and um I came home
and she said there was a crisis she had to
get on from me right away about some rural disaster.
(22:44):
I remember walking into my apartment and my babysitter was
there and she tells me whether she points to Jordan's
head because he had fallen at the playground and he
had to be actually had a bump on his head,
and she's point eating and she's like, but I got him.
And I remember standing in the entrance to the nursery
(23:05):
and I could have done two things. One like, I said,
I gotta call you back, or no, let's talk about Libya.
And you know what I did. I talked about Libya,
talked about Libya. And the judgment I made in that
moment was, Okay, he's got a bump, He's not crying.
Stella's there, Okay, let me deal with this crisis and
(23:25):
then I'll go back and I'll cuddle with him. But
I still have guilt that I did that, that was
the choice I made. I have guilt about not being present,
more present for him in his early I was not.
I didn't see his first steps. I missed his first word.
I know that now. On the flip side, every time
I tell my mom the story, she said, you know,
(23:47):
he's not gonna remember any of this. What he remembers
is now now at ten years old. Like literally in
the first day when they came in to set up,
when Nora o'donald came to interview me right here for
CBS Sunday, Jordan walks out of his room. He says, Mommy,
are you filming a TikTok today? And he said, no, no, no,
(24:07):
I'm doing an interview with a woman named Nora O'Donnell
for CBS. He's like, ah, whatever, like so uninterested, but
now he cares when are you going and when are
you coming back? And he remembers, So, you didn't get
a pedicure, manicure for for two years and year in
the Senate, and you were working, you know, probably every
waking hour for many years in your twenties and thirties.
(24:30):
Would you change that now? Well, I mean not to
give away the ending, but of course I say I
would do it all over again, So probably not. I mean,
but that's how I was. One of the many ways
I was successful, you know, I was starting at one.
I was prepared. I wasn't the best. I wasn't the smartest,
I wasn't the prettiest. I wasn't ever the is is
(24:52):
ist of anything. But I was prepared to at work
anybody else always. And now quick break, I want to
go back to this unstructured life thing because there's something
I don't buy. I feel like it still must be
hard for you sometimes to wake up and not necessarily
know what the day looks like. I mean, right now
(25:13):
is different because you're on your book tour and you're packed, right,
But what about those days that are not so full.
I was talking to my boss before I got on
with you guys. The number of times I have said
to her on calls, because we still talk at least
once a day, usually more than once. And the number
of times over the last since what is that five years?
(25:34):
No one Oh my god, almost six years the number
of times I've said, Toronto phone, how is it that
you are technically unemployed and all of us are exhausted
and overworked? Like what is happening? And that's the thing.
Our tagline that she and I and I don't even
think it's I left it in the book is it's
always an adventure. There is always something happening. There's always
(25:57):
a book or a podcast. But I'm better, you know.
I will take time and go to the gym, which
I didn't do until after six And I will take
time just to go see my family, Like who does that?
Guess what normal people do that go see their family
for no reason. And she's gotten you know good about
that too. God, in night, when I walked in admiring
(26:20):
this woman, you think I would have said to her,
I have a family wedding. No, I would say, send
meet Argentina. So anyway, something that just comes with experience
to having that confidence and in yourself and in the relationship.
Do you tell her now when you're busy if she
calls and you're busy, oh yeah, all the time, all
the time, and and and vice versa. You know, she'll
text me and say can you call, and I'll say,
I've got this, Can I call it four? Or five?
(26:42):
But I didn't used to do that in me in
the olden days. In the old Oh my god, I
would be I don't know, I got on Ferris Wheel
with my son, like, yeah, I got it, okay. Um.
I would be at brunches and have a thing in
my ear and just do both. I was never really
present for most social things, uh that I was at.
(27:05):
What is your relationship like with money? It's something we
talked about a lot on this show as women and money.
And you have seen so much of the world, and
I wonder if that's also changed how you think about
women and money. I'm so glad you're asking me this,
and I'll tell you why. I have a lot of
insecurity about money and um. I think in part because
I grew up comfortably middle class. We never you know,
(27:27):
my parents by no means were rich, but they were.
They were very smart about how they spent their money.
But you know, I was in public service from the
day I walked out. My first job was twenty seven
thousand dollars five seven thillars a year. That was a
lot of money from back then. And when you work
in government, there's a cap. When I left, I would
say five years after I left, uh g W. I
(27:49):
went to school in Washington, I was making the least
amount of money by far, of all of my peers.
I think raising a ten year old child on your
own in New York City, I think there's always this
feeling of is there are going to be enough? I
think it's very expensive. Not think it is very expensive
to live in Manhattan to send your child to private school.
And and maybe this is a thing. You know, there's
(28:10):
this book called Why We Can't Sleep. I can't remember
the author's name, but it's about women. Apparently it's also
a generational thing about women in their forties. That you
get to this point where you are, you are constantly
worried about. But it's just the way we were raised,
and you know how our minds were kind of raised
(28:31):
in the decade of excess in the eighties. And to
now realize you're in your forties, and now do I
make enough money that I could, you know, retire by
the way, it's very depressing, but also great. And everything
she said is right and accurate, and she's brilliant. So
I have to figure that out. I mean, know, one
day I have to grow up and you know, you know,
(28:52):
you know, think about finding my financial security. I didn't
have to do that. I didn't not they didn't have
to do it. I didn't care about it enough before
are And it's different when you have a child. Where
do you get financial advice? I don't know, what are
you guys doing after this? I mean I realized that
that's this is really bad. I mean, Chase, I should
(29:14):
get a financial advisor. Probably your parents were academics, Like,
did you ever talk about money growing up? We didn't,
but my parents, my mother was My mother was a refugee.
She had her family to leave India. They fled for
Pakistan on that ship. She that mentality stayed whether she wasn't.
She was frugal. Is that the right word. I want
(29:34):
to make sure it's the right word. She was, you know,
careful about how she spent our money, so it would
be she always shopped in the sales section just because
it was why would I buy something for forty dollars
when I can get something for twenty nine. And by
the way, I think was also like part of the
you know, I got a great deal kind of a thing.
(29:54):
But so you know, there were and they were disciplined.
So much about our life was disciplined. It was I
can get one barbie. Could they afford to? Sure? But
you're getting one barbie. You have to know what it
is to appreciate and and and value certain things. So
I didn't grow up worried about money per se, but
(30:15):
I knew that it wasn't a limitless supply. One of
the things you're known for is your sense of style.
Where do you shop today? I don't shop very often.
I'm so lucky that I have I do have friends
who are designers. I often wear. You know, one thing
is I don't. I'm not the current latest style person
like I'm at that. I know my body well enough
(30:37):
to say this is what looks good on me, and
this is you know what I'm going to buy. But
I have a few friends who are designers, and you know,
I like to support them or all. You know, go
on the website. I I just want to announce I
go online. I go online. I know how to do that.
I go on Netta Porte, I go on Moda. I
want to go back and ask the question that I
(30:57):
meant to ask a follow up to Early on you
talked about your father being diagnosed with renal failure when
you were too. You mentioned that was part of the
catalyst to move from Michigan to Saudi Arabia. I think
that um for my parents. You know, I can't remember
if I shared this, but my father was up for
(31:18):
a sabbatical. He was a professor at the Western Mistigan University,
and an option to go to Italy or he had
the option to go to Saudi Arabia. And I think
when he realized he had such little time left, he thought,
let's go explore the world. Let's you know, he always
loved to travel. They could have picked Italy, but I
think in the end, because of his work, you know,
(31:38):
he studied the condition of Muslims around the world who
lived as minorities, it was more appealing. I think if
he hadn't gotten the diagnosis, they would have gone to Italy,
no question, because it only would have been, you know,
a fun adventure. But this idea of doing something meaningful,
teaching their children about their roots, their faith, a really
serious um kind of approach to the world, and then
(31:58):
gave them the ability to bathe. They since Atti Maraybi
and travel around the world. For them, it was both
and they got to do both and that way. You're
a devout Muslim. What role has religion played in your life,
especially more recently. Oh, it has saved me, I mean
to have I mean, what is Muslim prayer? What is
it to be a devout Muslim? I mean Muslim prayer
is basically stepping back from the world. It's a meditation.
(32:20):
It is a conversation between you and a higher power.
It's thoughts, reflections, intentions, you just it forces you to
step back from whatever you're in and take a moment
to think. And I think for me, when you boil
down what Islam is at its essence, which is the
very first word that we revealed and our faith was
(32:41):
read educate yourself and you know, think and reflecting. So
for me, it's always it's been my guiding principle, my
guiding light. It's what it's my It centers me. It
really does center me. I'm grateful for it and we
should go to the speed round. Now what are you reading.
I'm reading Andrew Nowise book, her memoir, which is excellent.
By the way, you've met so many people, who is
(33:04):
one person you have yet to meet that you'd like
to Honestly, I mean, isn't that say something about what
it is to work Phillery Clinton. I can't think of
a living person that I haven't that that i'd like
to meet. Does anyone leave you starstruck? Not anymore? Back
in the nineties, yes, I cannot think of the last time.
Maybe Bruce Springsteen. Maybe when I went to the Bruce
(33:25):
Springsteen on Broadway, I was a little. I was surprised
that I was a little, but you know not, No,
I can't because I it's the one big lesson I learned.
Celebrities just they're human. I mean, there are human beings
like every you know, everybody else. I mean, Mandela is
sort of next level. I mean, there was just being
(33:47):
with him, was just being on a different planet. Really
just felt so there's he had a oh just a
glow and aura. You just felt so lucky to be
in his in his space. But anyone living today, I can't.
I can't think of. What is your nighttime routine? Well,
(34:07):
it is I like to I'd like to read a
couple of chapters if I go to bed. So we
try to eat dinner at six thirty. I try to
cook sometimes most of the time I try to cook.
And uh, it's you know, bedtime rituals and our son,
my son, he takes a shower, bath or shower or whatever,
and we do some We like to read together in
bed thirty minutes every night. We read together, me and
Jordan's in bed before he goes to sleep. And then
(34:30):
I'll try to do my own reading. And I was
I'll watch a show, uh, and then I fall asleep
pretty early. What is your favorite item in your closet?
Probably my um my Gucci leopard dress. Yeah. I haven't
warned very much with the blue ribbon. I just love it.
It's like every time I wear like, I look good
in this. Where is someplace you would like to vacation?
(34:54):
The Maldives high on my bucket list and it's not
going to exist in what ten years. So high on
my bucket list is the Maldives. So Luke Burns has
been listening. He joins us every episode with Our with
a male Perspective, and he's been listening to our conversation
and uh, let him take it away. I want you
(35:14):
to go back to the time where like the news
first broke about your husband, you know, and and that
whole ordeal was just like and you didn't get a
chance to speak to anybody, but then you gotta I
guess a quiet moment with Hilary because now you guys
kind of share the same common bond. What was that conversation? Like, uh, well,
(35:37):
as I um, people often don't remember that moment in
that I mean I do, and maybe some people do.
But I mean I was a newly wed, I was
newly pregnant. I woke up in bucking a palace or
writing you a letter to my husband on that stationary.
I mean, I wasn't just living a good life. I
was living a dream. I was living a dream. The
story breaks, and I had been so I was so
(36:00):
cited about being pregnant. You know, Jordan was a complete accident.
When after we got married, people told us, you know,
you're both of your sold You're not gonna ever, it's
gonna be impossible for you to have children. So he
really was a blessing. So to have that to be
in the happiest moment of our lives than to have
this shock, you know, she really that first conversation, more
(36:22):
of my trauma, Lou was about the fact that I
was pregnant, and I wasn't able to share that with people.
I was very traumatized about that. I mean, and I
that is a trauma I know stays with me today.
I walk around here, I'll walk around the streets and
I'll just want just randomly say I'm pregnant. Yesterday, I
do it, last week, I do it. Is so that
(36:43):
because I could never say those words. It's like my
brain reminding me so to me, so much of it
centered around this life I was bringing into the world.
And even if she had judgments about my decision, because
I think, I know, people you know, feel like we
do this bond, but every situation is so different. I mean,
(37:04):
obviously for her it was I mean, it was the
future of our nation, our democracy at that moment. I
mean it it could have been a constitutional crisis if
she chose to leave, which she chose not to do
for a variety of reasons which she has explained in detail.
And the fact that you know she deeply loved and
loves her husband, and you know, their their life and
(37:25):
their marriages you know, out in the world. For me,
it was I'm a new bride. I'm I'm you know,
we're you know, starting a new life together. We're creating
a life in the world together. And she just was
my friend. I'm here, whatever you I'm here. And I
think the fact that I walked into that hotel room
in Abu Dhabi and she had asked my mother, she
(37:46):
had flown my mother and my brother from London and
Saudi Arabia to be there. She gave me what she
thought I needed most. She gave me family, and she
was right, and everything else didn't matter, you know, And
I and I so will always be grateful to her
for that. I'm so happy I voted for her. I mean, look,
(38:07):
I say this, you know, one of my my goals
when people walk away from the book is this, you know,
that recognize an understanding that she would have been an
extraordinary leader and president because she wasn't is she is
an extraordinary leader and she will continue to be so
long as she graces us. Her poise and the way
she talks about her situation is so inspiring to me,
(38:32):
it really is. I Mean, she's gone through a lot,
like she lived on this like twenty year roller coaster
in the public eye, where she went from being a
young woman to an amazing professional to a wife and
a mom, to losing a lot of her professional career
when Hillary lost, to losing her marriage, and and she's
(38:53):
just got this grace and his acceptance and also this
like hope. You can tell there's so much hope. Yeah, No,
I really like her, like I want to be her friend.
I mean, I think that one of one of the
things that that I also learned from. I think the
way she talked about Anthony Weiner and the way that
(39:14):
so many people are dealing with you know, bad exes
and bad divorces. But in many ways, you know, nothing
could be worse than what she's gone through, but she
still manages to have not only a very good relationship
with him, but she talks about him so respectfully, which
says so much about her and what kind of parents
(39:34):
she is. I completely agree, not even just what kind
of a parent, but what kind of a person, right,
Like I mean, I think, like I think a lot
of it has to do with Jordan, as she mentioned
that like this, you know, Anthony. Without Anthony, she wouldn't
have the core of her life, her soul, her son.
But you know, I think that Huma is someone just
from our brief interaction that really probably looks for and
(39:56):
holds onto what is good in people. Yeah, it is
a lesson for anyone who has an X and kids
and how you how you move forward, how you talk
about that person, even if they've committed a crime, even
if they've done something horrendous. I just think it's it's
incredible and it's really a parenting lesson in so many ways.
(40:18):
And the one thing I got wrong was I didn't
realize how active she is with Hillary today. It's not
just that she's writing a book. I mean she has
like a full time job with Hillary, which I really
didn't understand. Yeah, And I mean it is like if
you if you take a step back and think about it, like,
of course, Hillary is probably still going full steam ahead,
because Hillary is never going to stop, right, Like, She's
probably still like she's a public servant servant, right, so
(40:40):
she's still serving the public. And I think Huma, you know,
is her partner, and that really, I mean, Huma really
is Hillary is professional partner. Yeah, that's a great way
to describe it. Thanks for listening to What's her Story
with Sam and Amy. We would appreciate it if you
leave her review wherever you get your podcasts and of course,
connect with on social media at What's Her Story podcast.
(41:03):
What's Her Story with Sam and Amy is powered by
my company, The Riveter at The Riveter dot c O
and Sam's company, park Place Payments at park place payments
dot com. Thanks to our producer Stacy Parra and our
male perspective, Blue Burns
Hosts And Creators
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Amy Nelson
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.