Julie Lythcott-Haims

This week on What’s Her Story, we’re joined by Julie Lythcott-Haims. After more than a decade as Dean of Freshman at Stanford, Julie took on the over-parenting rat race through her bestselling books and TED talk. We talk about raising independent children, redefining achievement, and most importantly, how to be the kind of parents our children deserve. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Sam Edis and I'm Amy Nelson. Welcome to
What's Her Story with Sam and Amy. This is a
show about the world's most remarkable women, their professional and
personal journeys. Together, we'll hear from Gold medalists, best selling authors,
and leaders of the world's most iconic brands. This week,

(00:23):
Sam and I cannot wait to introduce you to Julie
Lifecott Haynes. Julia went from acting as a dean of
Freshman at Stanford to writing the best selling How to
Raise an Adult, and now she's just released her new book,
Your Turn, How to Be an Adult. Please welcome, Julie.
You're the dean of Freshman at Stanford for over a decade.

(00:44):
What is the number one mistake that you see parents making?
Basically thinking that their kids are helpless and incapable, so
calling professors to talk to the professor about a grade,
we're unhappy with air quotes, or wanting to get involved
if there's a roommate dispute. You know, almost like the

(01:05):
kid is still having a play date, except the kid
is now twenty. Here's another example. My son has been
admitted to the Study abroad program in pick A Country,
Berlin Germany. And when's your parent orientation for study abroad? No,
because I can't send my child abroad. And look, let's

(01:26):
not we pointed out that I was at Stanford. This
was not a Stanford situation. This was childhood had changed,
Parenting had changed. Parents were coming to college with their
kids air quotes, whatever college or university their kid was
going to. We were all seeing it. So when did
parenting become this job or sport? I don't understand where

(01:48):
the over parenting came from. A curious set of things
were happening in the early to mid nineteen eighties. Let
me walk you back to that time, in no particular order.
These five things happened that conspired to change childhood and parenting. Uh.
Stranger Danger was born in three with a terrifying made
for TV movie that everybody saw in an era when

(02:09):
there was no internet and all of your entertainment came
through your television screen. Okay, uh, and the movies and music,
but everybody saw this TV show. The play date was born.
Four kids could no longer find playmates play dates themselves.
Parents had to arrange it, put in the calendar, but
then hover over at manage it, make sure everyone was

(02:29):
taking turns, getting along, doing enriching things. So free play ended. Um,
we began the self esteem movement. Let's give them a ribbon,
a trophy, a certificate and award just for being on
the soccer team, not for necessarily being good at it.
The only people who benefited from that, by the way,
were the manufacturers of the ribbons and the trophies and
the certificates and the awards. So we're making lots of money, okay,

(02:50):
but this was the perfect great job the beginning of that,
like every little thing is acknowledged and given a certificate
or an applause. For number four, we started rolling into
effect laws that said you have to wear seat belts,
you have to wear bike helmets, you have to have
a car seat. Every single state in the mid eighties
past those laws, which saved lives, absolutely good and lead

(03:15):
to a mentality of we can entirely control our environment.
We will bubble wrap our house, we will bubble wrap
our child. We went from just make sure the kid
doesn't can't access the cabinet that contains the poison, to
kill the insects too. Let's bubble wrap every corner. Let's
put a little latch on every drawer because we wouldn't

(03:35):
want them to have an ouch or in oops. And
then five academically we got this sort of critical books
called a Nation at Risk, saying America's teenagers weren't faring
very well visa e their international counterparts when it came
to academic achievements. So we needed more testing and more
teaching to the test. And so in the span of
five years, we had play changing. How parents behaved on

(03:59):
play hounds and on in grocery stores and in malls,
visa be constantly hovering over kids in fear of a
stranger from the sidelines of kids activities, parents there for practice,
showing up and shouting how amazing they were. Homework was
hovered over. Childhood changed. It just that all happened in
the mid nineteen eighties, and the young people to have

(04:21):
had the first play date were the first to come
to college in the late nineties as a group with
parents who couldn't let go. Kids first subjected to the
first play date, where the set whose parents came to
college and behaved as helicopter parents in the college environment.
And then why did it persist? Because it looks it
looks like it works. That's why you know, that's why

(04:42):
I kept going. All of this help appears to work. Right.
I helped my kid prevent something, you know, a boo
boo from happening. I was there, I rescued, I handled,
And so it looks like it works, which is why
people do it, because the people who do it seem
to have advantages and create advantages. And what we've only
learned recently, in the last eight ten years, is it

(05:02):
causes psychological harm to the kids because they don't develop
a sense of agency or self efficacy, and so they
can't do things and their mental health is damaged. So
how have we learned that? What has shown us that
in the past eight or ten years, Well, people in
the field of psychology have conducted research and have studied
situations and have correlated an overparenting style with a lack

(05:25):
of agency and kids greater executive function trouble in kids,
and the lack of self efficacy leads to higher rates
of anxiety and depression. Now do you see this changing?
I mean, is the pendulum swinging back to how it
used to be because of all this research? Well, I
see two things. I see some parents saying, yes, absolutely,

(05:46):
I get it. In my town. I've seen over parented
kids in my family. I've seen over parented kids. When
people see the effects, that's when they go, Okay, fine,
I understand. Wow, I did not mean to be setting
those things in motion. I need to pull back. I
need to focus on my kids developing their own skills
rather than me pretending I can forever live their life
for them. But let's face it, you know, just look

(06:08):
at the news, look at the admission scandal the last
couple of years. There are a set of parents who
have doubled down and have decided Nope, this kid is
effectively my pet, my project. I will turn them into
best in breed and um deploying every resource they have
monetarily in terms of their influence and their ability to
take care of business and leaving life for their kids.

(06:30):
So I'm seeing sort of both. That leads us to
your ted talk, which I loved, and I think anyone
who's listening who hasn't seen it should definitely watch it.
But I was struck by the fact that you went
to Stanford and Harvard Law School, yet you are telling
people that the school you go to matters. You know,
your children go to matters less than you might think.

(06:52):
The first thing I'm going to say to that is
folks who are concerned about this, they wouldn't be listening
to me had I not gone to those schools. There
is that in att it sort of I become an
authority in the minds of some because I've been to
those places, and I acknowledge that there there are a
set of people who seem to believe that that's what matters.
I don't believe that that's what matters. I have been

(07:14):
an administrator in higher education and have a deep appreciation
for the excellence offered at two hundred different colleges and
universities in this country. So I am a graduate of
those places who can say, oh, hey, yeah, those places
are great. They're just not the only great places, is
my point. And why scare your kids childhood toward a

(07:37):
place that's denying of all applicants so they feel like
losers at a time of life when they should feel exhilarated.
Let's widen our blinders and accept and embrace the fact
that a terrific education is to be had many many,
many schools, most of which are not rejecting everybody. It's funny,
so I mentioned to my ninth grader that I was

(07:59):
interviewing you, and she said, oh, mom, will you just
ask her for tips of how I can get into
a good college? So well, would you say to that?
What would I say? Number one, let's talk about good college.
There are three thousand accredited four year institutions in the
United States, so the top five or seven and a

(08:21):
half percent is between a hundred and fifty and two schools. Okay,
So be willing to take into consideration every school in
that book you bought. That's you know, America's colleges. Like
you know, don't just focus on the top twenty. Why
didn't your blinders? Choosing a college isn't about choosing a
pair of jeans or a soda. It's not about the

(08:42):
brand name. It's about your fit and belonging where you go.
So now let me flip the tables, ninth grader and
focus on you. What you've got to be figuring out
over the course of high school is which subjects light
me up? Which one or two subjects do I love?
And I really want to explore deeply and deal with
the other stuff I'm required to do. But this is

(09:03):
my stuff as opposed to I need to be great
at everything, and I need to do all the activities
and all the sports and all the leadership to get
into some school that requires that. No, forget that. This
is the time to begin to cultivate your own self,
to deeply enquire of yourself what am I good at?
What do I love? Not what does society value? But
who am I? And then you're going to find a

(09:25):
college that says, oh, hey, kid, we offer that thing
that you're deeply engaged in and that you love, and
we're impressed at what you've done with that at the
high school level. Come do that further on our campus.
That's the kind of match you're looking for and has
nothing to do with the brand name of the place.
What I've taken from what Julia just shared, which I
really want to do better at at home, is like
what lights you up? Because that's just such a great

(09:47):
question and it's not loaded with any pressure. And I
think that one of the things that that we've made
the mistake about is where in the chidge Hawk you share,
like when your kid gets in the car, what was
the best part of your day? It's not how that
history testco right, but like as parents and as goal oriented.
People were like, how the history testco because we saw
them studying for it last night and making themselves crazy

(10:09):
over it. So it's part of we all have to
to change our behavior in my house, you know, And
it starts with the parents, it does, and it starts
with examining our own biases. Look, you've pointed out where
I went to school. I met my husband also at Stanford,
we were both undergrad so I'm right there with you,
having trodden that path. And then you know, of course

(10:29):
our kids may think that that's the only acceptable path,
particularly if we hype that path. So we have to
do a much better job of coming clean. Hey, kids,
it was so much easier to get into those schools
than it is now. Period. Okay, yeah we went there,
but it's rather impossible to get into those places today
because so many more kids are applying to so many

(10:49):
more schools. So let's just you know, they're there and
they're great, but let's focus on the fact that there
are so many other schools which are also great, and
you have to believe it or they won't believe you.
You have to act. We do the work. Look up
colleges that change lives, Read about the honors colleges at
big public universities that offer a tremendous education. Okay, acknowledge

(11:09):
the fact that the big brand name schools often don't
teach well. How many professors did you know personally when
you were an undergraduate? If you were at an Ivy
League school, maybe you did. Maybe it wasn't until junior
senior year. At smaller Berllards colleges, they get attention and
mentoring from faculty from day one, and that's what turns
out to be a predictor of success in life. You know,

(11:30):
how well were you mentored wherever you went? Not did
you go to a brand name, but did the teachers
and professors there give a damn about you? That's what
we need to be steering our kids toward with great
confidence that those are where the great outcomes lay. And
we have to make sure we're not saying you could
go anywhere. But yet our entire house is filled with
memorabilia of only one or two schools. Like all the mugs,
all the sweatshirts, all the stuff is like, right, walk

(11:53):
the walk and be delighted. Here's another way you can
walk the walk when someone in your kids school decides
to go to a state school, a smaller Bernard's College,
a college air quotes most people haven't heard of. You
should light up and say, I'm so happy for them.
I'm sure that's a great fit for them. Awesome, And
you have to demonstrate that you believe it instead of like,

(12:13):
oh right. Just think about how your face lights up
when someone's going to a brand name school. Oh, and
then they're going they're not going to a brand name school,
you're like, oh right. That kid is devastated when the
adults in their lives can't seem to muster enthusiasm for
the path they're on. We have to do better as
parents at being delighted for every kid's outcomes, and in

(12:34):
so doing we demonstrate to kids younger coming up on
the path in our own house that we truly do
believe that it doesn't matter where you go, it matters
who you are. This reminds me, it's I mean, it's
so interesting. I have a different perspective because I grew
up in Columbus, Ohio. I went to public school. My
mom had paid her way through Ohio State, so I
had my dad, the Ohio State University, the Ohio State University,

(12:56):
and my dad's parents had paid for him to go,
but you know, they had graduated, and my sister and
I both went to Emory University in Atlanta, which was great.
So anyway, this idea of choice, and I mean, I
remember in sixth grade, I won this national writing competition
or state writing competition. I was invited to nationals, but
I had a track meet and my mom said, it's
your choice. And I was twelve and I didn't really

(13:16):
know what it went, but I chose the track meet.
My mom was like, great, and like I think of
that now and I'm like, would I do that? Or
would I say, you're going to the writing competition with
my kids? Do you have an intrinsic sense of which
one mattered more today? Is that what you're saying, because
I don't see that there's anything wrong with choosing the
track meet. Yeah for me, I don't know. I think
like if if the academics is that they, I don't know.

(13:37):
It's hard, Like it's just hard as a parent to
step back and let your child make all the choices. Well,
and if we have this sense that every single choice
narrows the possibilities for future, then we can obsess round
is this the right choice or is this the right choice?
Oh no, I'm closing doors. We need to cut ourselves
some slack and give ourselves a break. Right. None of
us can say which of those two was the right

(13:59):
choice for that child. What we ought to be saying
is there are valid reasons to choose this, valid reasons
to choose this. Downfalls with this, downfalls with this, You
can only do one. You gotta pick pick one and
live with it and go in the direction that that.
You know, you might have become, you know, more likely
to run and track in high school and then college

(14:19):
because you did that, you might have gone on to
be an award winning writer. If you had done the
other thing. You maybe both I I don't you know.
We have to get out of this zero sum um,
keep your options open because there's one possible option that's magnificent,
and we have to just constantly be waiting for signs
from the universe like, okay, go this is the one
to pick. That's what's causing part of the anxiety, because

(14:41):
we're so hyped about, oh my gosh, you can't do
your writing and your sport. What are we gonna do?
It's we we are kids are flipping out because we
act like everything matters so much. I'm delighted your mom
allowed you to choose that, because a twelve year old
is capable of making that choice. And further intan where
do I want to go? Oh, the answer was to

(15:01):
track me. I think that's amazing. I think what's so
interesting is to me, the really difficult question, and you
just answered it is was Amy's mom? Should she have
been involved in that decision? Or should she have left
it up to Amy? And there's another argument, which is,
like a twelve year old doesn't understand the significance of
a writing competition or the significance of this track me.

(15:21):
So as parents, it's our job to guide her. And
the question is at what aids do you guide those things?
And my own background is I was a very pressured
child athlete. The reason I got into Harvard is because
I was a tennis player. I was recruited by every
school to play tennis. If I have not been pressured,
I would never have been a ranked tennis player. And

(15:43):
that decision had a lot of negatives, but a lot
of positives from my life. And so it's been interesting
is watching my own children as I know the way
I parent makes it so that I've ensured I have
no college athletes in my home because there is a
degree of pressure, a degree of commitment. It takes from
parents two in many ways create a child athlete. So

(16:05):
I think that in terms of pendulum parenting, I've gone
the other way of like no pressure, no pressure, because
I had so much pressure. So where do you fall
on all that? Well? I fall on the I think
I'm on the end of the pendulum. You'ur on And
I'm going to say it this way. Our child is
not a dog that we have entered in the Westminster
Dog Show and are going for best in breed or

(16:27):
best in class or best in show around. Our child
is not a racehorse we've entered in the Kentucky Derby
that we've been on and we get return on investment
if they win the Derby and then the Triple Crown.
They're not animals, they're not Pepperts, they're not projects, they're
not ours, they're not our property. They are human beings

(16:48):
here to lead their one, wild and precious life. And
it is arrogant as hell for any one of us
to steer them in a particular career or extracurricular direction.
Let me pause and say I'm talking I think about
families with relative means. I know that if you are
poor or working class, you may have a sense of

(17:09):
I gotta push my kid to get into a particular direction,
to lift them, to help them lift themselves and maybe
the rest of us up to a more comfortable, middle
class place. I think that's a different set of challenges.
That's not the one I'm speaking to here, Okay. I
the pressure that high achieving athletes have been put under.

(17:30):
I mean, I want my kid to be a Jeremy Lynn,
not an Andrea Agassi. Agacy was topping men's tennis for
years and wrote a memoir about how freaking miserable he
was my heart breaks. Jeremy Lynn was never to the
NBA what Agasy was to tennis, but he loved every
minute he played, and when he got his break and
played for the Knicks for some seasons, he had fans

(17:53):
in the crowd. They made the Documentarylyn Sanity. You know,
he loved it. It showed and he was good at it.
That's what we on to be pushing our kids. If
we're pushing at all, it's pushing them toward what their
own passions are, not toward what we need to be
able to brag about its soul cycle or on the
golf course. So when does it start. It starts at

(18:13):
birth with a respect that your job is to help
this kid figure out who they are and what they're
good at, and use whatever resources you have and have
access to to fan the flames of their own interest.
We're not supposed to manufacture them to be something that
is arrogant, and it's harmful, and it's painful to them

(18:34):
and often results in estrangement between parents and kids. One day,
what's the thread between this and your new book adults? Thing? Like,
what's the thread there? Well, the first book was on
we're harming kids, we should stop. The second is for
young people. I'm rooting for you to be you go,
get going. You know, it's the same message. It's just

(18:57):
sort of the flip side. One was take away the harm.
One was support those who might have been held back
by over involved parents. Not to assume everyone who reads
my book had over involved parents, but if you're struggling
with activating your own adulthood, if you're stuck and you
don't know that you can adult, often it's because you
were overmanaged. Somebody tied your shoes too long, bathed you

(19:18):
too long, wiped your butt too long, cut your food
too long, held your hand too long. Talk to every
teacher for you, talked to every coach for you. You
never asked a grocery store clerk a question, You never
filled out your own forms. Of course, you don't know
how to adult because you've been denied systemically through your
childhood of having the experiences that would have taught you

(19:41):
how to be in those circumstances. So I am here
just vociferously rooting for young adults to snatch their lives
away from whomever is holding onto them and go lead
that life. I am rooting for all of us to
make it. And I have a particular soft spot in
my heart for young people who are being treated like

(20:02):
dogs on a leash, marched down the path of life
by parents. And now for a quick break, what was
your own childhood like? I am the child of a
highly educated African American father who was a physician. My
black grandfather was one of the first black doctors in America.
My white mother has a PhD, which she got when

(20:23):
I was in college, so went back to school after
raising me to get her own PhD. So I come
from highly educated folks. I'm the youngest of six in
a blended family. All of my siblings had gone to college,
um some to grad school. So for me, it was
you will go to college. It wasn't about where. They
didn't tell me what to study. But I was punished
if I didn't get all a's and I chafed at that,

(20:45):
and I tried to rebel against it until I realized
that was only shooting myself in the foot. So I
came from high expectations folks, and I think you know,
some of that was problematic. It is important to teach
kids to work hard, have a work ethic, keep trying,
you know, play self back up. All of those are
important values. But when we condition our love on how
well the child is doing, that is problematic. But my

(21:08):
parents weren't the tiger type forcing me to be a
brain surgeon or a tennis star. What I did was
entirely up to me, and I appreciate that. The other
thing is my mother has co raised my children with
me and my partner. In order to afford to live
in Palo Alto, Silicon Valley, she sold her house back east.
We sold our house in California. Together the sale of

(21:28):
two houses bought one house in the right school district
air quotes in Palo Alto. So my mother has been
very much a part of our child rearing with our
own kids, who are now twenty one and nineteen. And
I've been watching the patterns my mother and I have
around her micro management and control. I've been watching that
show up in me in response to my mother now

(21:48):
that I'm an adult, as I parent my own kids. Um,
it's really been a mind blowing lye uh wide eyes
open kind of opportunity for me to figure out intentionally, know,
how do I want to be today with my children.
It does not have to be the way that I
was raised. And I'm actively repatterning some of my overparenting
tendencies with my twenty one year old and nineteen year old.

(22:11):
How is your parenting change over the course of the
last twenty years. Well, I was this dean at Stanford,
as you've said, freshman dean from two thousand two to
two thousand twelve. So my babies were born. Oh once,
we've got tiny kids. I'm working with a generation older
college students raised by other people. I'm seeing the encroachment

(22:32):
of parents into the lives of these college students around
academics and their personal life and solving problems just sort
of tearing my hair out, like as a gen X
are going Why are these millennials letting their parents and
be so involved in their freedom and independence their college students?
My god, what is going on? And I was railing
against it, and I would give speeches on my campus

(22:53):
at orientation every year, like these funny, loving, blunt speeches
like trust your kid, trust us now, please lenk eve.
It's college. They could be in the Marines, like go
home across your kid. And then I began to appreciate,
maybe they have to continue doing all this because they
always have and they know their kids never waken themselves

(23:14):
up yet, so how are they going to start to
wake themselves up in college? And I've always reviewed every
single paper, so why would I stop? Right, I began
to appreciate, Oh, they it's not that they're starting to
over parent in college. They've always over parented, and they
can't let go because the steaks just keep getting higher.
Seven years into railing against this, giving speeches, writing op eds,

(23:36):
I come home for dinner one night with my own family.
My son was ten, my daughter was eight. We were
having chicken. I sit down next to ten year old Sawyer.
I lean over his plate and began cutting his meat.
And that's when I knew I was part of the
very problem I was railing against. That I am over
parenting a ten year old. Ten is way too late

(23:58):
to be cutting somebody's food. There are so many skills
a human has to learn between cutting meat and go
to college, or go to the workplace, or or join
the army. And that's when I learned I am a
part of the very problem I criticized, which made me
super motivated to learn more about it. What is it?
Why do we do it? Why is it harmful? How
do we stop? And that's the void those dual vantage points,

(24:20):
Dean working with other people's kids, me over parenting my
own kids. That's the dual vantage point embedded in my
first book, How to Raise an Adult, And I've been
trying to undo those patterns ever since. Was your husband's
style similar to yours or how did he adjust when
you were changing? You know, he's a really important person
to mention. Danlecott HAIs my amazing life partner of thirty

(24:42):
three years said to me when he was nineteen when
we were dating, if I ever have kids, one day,
I want to be home with them. And that was
his plan, which was so unusual in the nineteen eighties
for a man to say that, and he made good
on that promise. So after twelve short weeks of maternity
leave in ninety nine, which was all we were allowed,
then um, I went back to work to my busy

(25:04):
full time job and Dan began working part time and
has for the last twenty two years. My mother is
also in our life, so my husband and mother were
the primary caregivers. I showed up half a day a week,
that was my flex schedule. Um. So Dan has been
hugely influential in raising our children, and he's got his

(25:25):
own helicopter parenting tendencies. I don't want to speak for him.
He's like around the corner and I don't know if
he's ever heard any say this, but you know, he's
very indulgent, he's very um he's a conflict avoiders, so
he has a hard time kind of holding the line.
And um he's super kind and wonderful. He's very empathetic,
and so he has all the sort of love and
care and concern and support, but both of us struggled

(25:49):
with rules and boundaries. We struggled with saying no, we
tried to make life easier for our kids instead of
holding the line when we needed to and creating, you know,
some clear rule and expectations. Yeah. So both of us
were in it, and both of us are motivated to
try to change it. It's so funny because I actually
just wrote yesterday about the fact that there's all these

(26:10):
milestones that we talk about when we're parenting. You know,
the first steps, and you know the first words and
first day of school, but it's really the other milestones
like the first time your child is cutting their food
by themselves, or the first time that your child puts
themselves to bed, or you stop reading to your child
at night, Like those are the milestones that actually can

(26:33):
like really impact you and you don't even realize when
they're happening. And it's it's something to just keep thinking about. Lately, Sam,
let me point to the first steps, because you've really
hit on something that I think is an essential memory
that if we can summon it, it can actually help
us be better parents all the way through okay. Parents
often asked me, as you kind of have, when do

(26:54):
we like, where's the line? And when do we start
or when do we stop? You know, why do we
start over parenting? Or when do we start giving them independence?
And I say to that, why did just stop giving
them independence? When they were learning to stand and then
walk roughly age one? They failed at it and we

(27:14):
were not embarrassed, and we did not micromanage. We didn't shout,
get up. We walk in this family, right, your brother
walked sooner than you. We don't do that the way
we do around everything else, academic sports, friends. Right. Instead
we clap, We're delighted our kid is learning to stand
and walk. We know if I help them too much,

(27:36):
they won't develop the leg strength, they won't develop the
core strength, they won't develop the sense of balance, they
won't be able to stand and walk too. Overparent would
be to get on your knees as your little one
is taking their first tentative steps, To get on your
knees behind them, so that if they fall, they fall
into you and you can problem back up. To put
your hands underneath their armpits and hold them up so
they fall, you can hold them up and then you

(27:57):
nudge them forward and your partners over there at the
other end of the room clapping like, look, we're walking.
That would be overparenting, And of course it's absurd because
they weren't learning to walk. If we did it that way,
we were doing it for them. That is the visual
I want everyone to have when you think about what
doing too much for them is actually achieving. You're walking

(28:18):
them to the other end of the room, but they
are not learning to walk, and you will forever have
to prop them up because you are depriving them of learning.
How Okay, So we're supposed to teach them everything to
let them learn, often me and step away. Make sure
they're not going to fall on a sharp object. But
they're gonna fall because that's how they learned to pull
themselves back up. It's how their brain learns, it's how

(28:40):
their muscles get stronger. They literally have to go and
do the work of life themselves in order to be capable.
And for everything that's a practical skill, we're supposed to
be teaching it, and there's a four step method. There's
a cute little video on my website that illustrates this. First,
you do it for them. Second, you do it with them. Third,
you watch them do it. Fourth, they can do it independently.

(29:03):
Picture teaching a kid to cross the street. First, you
do it for them. You're holding them on your shoulder.
They're an infant. They don't have to do anything. You
carry them across the street. Step two, you hold their hand.
They're old enough to walk and hold your hand. You
narrate out loud, Hey buddy, we're gonna start practicing crossing
the street today. It's gonna take a while, but we're
gonna start today. You teach with your teaching voice about, hey,

(29:26):
we stand this far from the curb and we're looking
for cars. I want to make sure it's clear. We're
gonna look left and right and left and and you
it's don't do it when you're in a hurry, because
if you're in a hurry, you're gonna say, oh God,
I'm just gonna scoop them up and carry them across
the street. The point is, unless you intend to carry
your eleven year old across the street, you have to
make time to teach all these things. You do step

(29:48):
two enough times you can go to this terrifying stage
of step three, where you switch hands like or or
switch roles. You let go of your kid's hand. They're
no longer going to dart out into the street. You
know they've passed that age. And you say, hey, buddy,
now we're gonna stand here and you're going to decide
is it's safe to cross. I'm gonna listen to you narrate.
And he says, okay, daddy, you know I look left, right, left.

(30:10):
You say, slow down, buckaroo, we gotta look carefully. So
you're still teaching. You're there for the just in case,
in case they step out too soon, you're still they're teaching.
And then step four, as your kid can cross the
street without your needing to be there, We have to
get there around everything crossing street, tying shoes, cutting food,
making dinner, food on the stove, putting things in their

(30:32):
own backpack, talking to you know, clerks on the phone,
advocating for themselves with a teacher or a coach. Everything
can be taught according to that fourth step method, and
that's what good parenting looks like. Tell us about your
experience going from law school to you know, being a
corporate lawyer and then suddenly becoming this Stanford administrator. How

(30:57):
did you end up on that path. I went to
law school because I fell in love with law as
an undergraduate. I fell in love with law as a
way to make the world better, and I wanted to
be one of those lawyers who would do that. The
trouble is, I can now tell you, at fifty three,
half a life ago, in my mid twenties, I was
so insecure as a young woman of color at my
law school, even though I had gone there to do

(31:19):
public interests law. I was so insecure about what people
thought of me and whether I was well regarded, that
I decided I needed to go get a corporate law
job to meet the applause and approval of society, broadly
speaking of white mainstream society. And so I took my
law offer at Coolie Godward, this great firm and Silicon Valley,

(31:42):
and became a corporate litigator. And I was given a
good mentor. I was given great opportunities. I was making
great money, they liked me, they were mentoring me. All
signs indicated that I might be very successful there. The
trouble was, I had this not in my stomach every
Sunday in the afternoon at the thought of going in

(32:03):
because the work was not intrinsically the work I wanted
to be doing. I was good at it and well
paid and all those other things, and yet miserable, and
I couldn't figure out why. Like I thought I'd done
everything right, right schools, right career, everybody says I'm successful.
And that's when I learned that it's not about someone
else's definition of the right job or the right career.

(32:24):
I have to both be good at it and love it.
And I did this exercise with myself to figure out, well,
what are you good at? What do you love? I
was miserable, and I did a brainstorming exercise that I
explicate on the pages of my new book, Your Turn
in my chapter you know, stop pleasing others. They have
no idea who you are. I'm trying to help readers
do the work of figuring out this sweet spot. What

(32:45):
are you good at? What do you love? That's the
ven diagram that leads to rewarding work. If you're just
good at it and don't love it, you'll feel like
a drone in your own life. If you just love it,
you're not good at it, You're probably not going to
make it into a career. It's going to be a hobby.
So I did that work, and that work told me
you're good at people. You love people, you like working
with people, you like helping people solve their problems. People

(33:07):
trust you. Maybe I can get work with people. Even
though I was trying to be this analytical, left brain person,
La la la, I am that person. But I'm also
very much a people person. And I hadn't chosen well
out of law school. I should have gone into the
public interest work I wanted, but by then I felt
like a sellout. I was tired of law and of arguing,

(33:27):
and I went in the direction of people, and that
led me back to academia, where work with young people
help them, try to help them make better choices in
their life earlier than I had. So that was the path.
It took me three years from that night of misery
doing that exercise, three years to actually make the leap.
I tried and failed three times to get work in

(33:49):
higher ed administration. I kept being denied because I was
a lawyer. I didn't have the the right graduate degree.
And then finally I caught a lucky break at Stanford
Law School, where they valued my law degree and I
filled in for somebody's maternity leave, and she ended up
not coming back, and they hired me and that led
to a fourteen year career. It was a huge risk,
a huge leap, but I was so miserable I decided

(34:10):
to fill in for someone's maternity leave to test drive
a new career, and to my delight, I loved it,
and to my delight, they wanted me full time. What
was it like to take that financial risk. I mean,
you were walking away from a high paying job into
a temporary position and you're the primary redwinner. Yes, Amy,
thank you for asking that question. Here's what I said.
I went to my boy I was in house at

(34:31):
Intel at the time, and I said to my boss
at Intel, I have an opportunity to test drive a
new career. I need a ten week leave. I'm gonna
go fill in for somebody's maternity leave. Will you hold
my job? That's how miserable I was. I was able
to just put it out there because if she said no,
I would have said CIA, But I thought, let me

(34:52):
try to hold my job. She looked at me into
her credit she said, for your sake, I hope you
love it, because I want you to be happy. For
my ache. I hope you don't, because you're one of
my top people. I will hold your job. So off
I went to a job that was paying me I
think two thirds of what I was earning as a lawyer,
and I took that job and it was enough money.

(35:13):
I wasn't gonna get rich in that job, but it
was plenty. So I learned you can do a whole
lot more with less when you're intrinsically motivated to do
the work. The work provides some of its own rewards
that helps fill you up in ways that no amount
of money you can. And then when the woman didn't
come back from maternity leave and the dean called me
and said I want to hire you permanently, I said,

(35:35):
I want to work with you, but you're gonna have
to pay me more because I had leverage at that point,
and I negotiated for a significant increase, not just for
me but for everybody because they needed to do a
salary review and my hire was an opportunity to do that.
So the lesson there is, right, you, we have leverage,
and we have power when we are valued and we've

(35:55):
got that offer, that is the moment to say, heck yeah,
I want to be here. But guess what these numbers
you know have to move higher, and you can walk
away from a job when you're miserable. And often we
are our own best advocate when we've reached that point
of misery. I talked to a friend of mine who
as a podcast edit Your Life, Christine Co. She said,
I finally left Wall Street when my hair was falling

(36:17):
out because I could show people clumps of my hair
and say, see, see, I'm miserable. See I don't want
to do this anymore. It was like she needed the
evidence of her hair falling out to justify I want
to do different work, And I think my work is
about trying to help people make the leap before their
hair is falling out, or before their blood pressure is high,

(36:37):
or before their body is screaming at them stop. Can
we please stop doing this? We're miserable. Can we find
a way to give ourselves permission to hear that inner
voice that saying, Hey, I want to be a teacher,
I want to be a nurse. I want to be
a wilderness guide. I want to be a chef. I
want to try to write novels. Can we give ourselves
permission to hear that voice beckoning for our attention within

(36:58):
our psyche. Can we listened to that voice before our
body start to break down? I think the answer is yes.
One of the most uncomfortable parts of your book was
the part on feedback when you shared negative feedback you
had received in your job, and it was it was
I was cringing reading it because it was so difficult

(37:20):
to read. I'm sure it was just it's difficult and
more difficult to receive. But the way you shared that
and what you did with it really struck me. Can
you talk a little bit about feedback? Do you mean
the story where my friend took me out to lunch
and said everybody said I was a ladder climber. Yeah.
So here I was um about six years into a
fourteen year career as an administrator, a senior administrator at Stanford.

(37:44):
I had created the dean of Freshman position, a position
I would go on to hold for ten years. This
was in year maybe one and a half or two.
I thought I was doing a great job. The students
seemed to value that there's an office carved out just
for first years. The parents of those students. Of course,
since there all hell got to parents of value that
um the alumni Association value to the opposite development, because
it looked like we were creating some programs and ways

(38:05):
of being around ritual that would foment belonging, which would
help the students thrive but also be good for the
university in the long term. So they were all kinds
of bits of evidence said, hey, this is working, this
is good, this is useful. Win win. A colleague took
me out to lunch and said, you know, I need
to tell you this, but people are staying, you're a
ladder climber who doesn't care who she steps on on

(38:25):
the way to the top. They're staying, it's like you've
sat down on the park bench and bumped someone else off.
And so, UM, I was just trying not to cry,
Like I thought, here, I am now in my dream job,
after all those years of misery, and I'm doing it.
I'm doing the job I want to do. And now
my colleagues are saying these things. And I was ashamed

(38:46):
and embarrassed and just biting my lip and trying not
to cry. And um, I began to lean into it
and and take an interest in what was I being told.
I'm being told you don't collaborate, you don't listen to
other people, you don't care about other people. So I said, fine,
I'll go and listen to other people. And I set
up meetings and I would, you know, like I have
these great ideas, but fine, I'll go talk to other

(39:07):
people about my great ideas instead of just trying to
all on my own, do my implement my great ideas.
I mean, it was such a loan actor. I came
out of litigation where it was, you know, have the
right idea, prove it, convinced it wasn't a collaborative environment.
Now academia was, and I was not collaborating. So I said, fine,
I'll go and collaborate. You know, I'll even go to
other people's offices to demonstrate respect, you know, and I'll

(39:28):
convince some of my great idea while I'm in their office.
Well ha ha he I slowly, actually, I quickly learned
that as I began to share ideas with people, be
a little bit curious about their thoughts, be a little
bit humble about their expertise and years of experience. Oh
guess what, they have great ideas. They can add their
idea to the mix. Make my idea a better one.

(39:50):
Maybe we abandoned my idea because their ideas even better.
And I became someone who was forced to collaborate out
of this sort of shame of oh my god, everyone
hates me to oh wow, there's such benefit in collaborating.
This is amazing, and that then became my way of
being And it was terrible in the moment, but boy,

(40:10):
if I had never gotten that feedback, I never would
have become the administrator. I ultimately became who was, you know,
fairly highly respected and admired in part because of my
you know, interest in demonstrated ability to collaborate. Well, what
would you say the key to being a great teenage

(40:32):
parent is I'm not in a room where I have
the books that I want to show you, but I
do rely heavily on other people's work. Um One is
The Self Driven Child by Ned Johnson and Bill sticks Rood.
One is Hunt Gathered Parents by Michaelan Duclef. These are
all books that helped situate us in the right space
around our kids, teens and all kids frankly, because not

(40:53):
a lot change who they are changes, but how we
show up with them shouldn't really Okay, we're trying to
at our kids to care about their own lives and
their own selves. If we overcare, they won't. If we
constantly micromanage or nag or remind they won't, they'll stop caring.
We have to remove ourselves significantly. We have to step
to the side so that they can show up in

(41:15):
their own life. So I'm going to tell you two
quick stories, okay. One from a mom who called me
and said, Julie, I figured it out. I figured out
the appropriate distance I'm supposed to have my kids. I
have two sons. My seventeen year old son is mine biologically.
My fifteen year old son is adopted. My seventeen year
old son sadly is in a therapeutic boarding school because
things kind of went south. My fifteen year old is

(41:37):
doing great, she said. My seventeen year old called me
for family therapy from therapeutic boarding school, and finally someone
the courage to say to me, Mom, every time you nag,
remind have you done this one? Are you gonna do this?
Don't forget to do this. It makes me think you
don't think I can or that I ever will. And
then I think the psychiatrist said, and maybe that has
something to do with your rebellion, because that's the only

(41:58):
way you have agency in your life is to rebel
against your frequently over involved parents. Okay, she said to me, Julie,
I got it. My biological son carries my d n A.
I feel responsible for the grades he gets in the
school he goes to, in his behavior because he's mine biologically.
With my adopted son, I don't love him any less.

(42:19):
I love him the same, I just don't feel that
his outcomes reflect on me. She came to realize she
has the better relationship with her adopted kid because she's
not managing him like a freaking dog. Okay, so that's
how this parents saw the difference. Okay, here's how it
applies to all of us. Were supposed to treat our

(42:39):
kid the way we're probably already treating our nieces and
nephews and best friends kids. For example, outside of COVID,
you go over to your best friend's house on a
Friday afternoon, their kid comes home from high school, slams
the door, throws the backpack down, and says, well, I
guess it just failed chemistry. You say, oh, no, poor thing,
are you a I come here? Do you want someone

(43:02):
like you love you connect around the feeling they're having.
The actual parent is going, what do you mean you
failed chemistry? We studied hard, didn't we Chemistry matters? What
are you talking about? They're all in it like they're
the one taking the chemistry class. Which is the better response?
The first one? Love connection, care, not acting like it's yours,

(43:25):
not evincing. I don't trust that you can handle this. Okay,
So what your kid wants is to be listened to
and believe me. I'm not pointing my finger at you.
I am such a fixer, Sam. Okay. My daughter and
I have this dynamic. She's the nineteen year old, she's
a softmore. Just finish her sophomore in college. Okay. When
she called me at the start of sophomore year during
a pandemic where she's living off campus three thousand miles

(43:46):
away from home, and she says, it's the second week
of school. I have to register this used scooter that
I bought with a d m V. I'm trying to
hook up my internet. My landlord is mad at me
about this, and I have a paper do and she
was freaking out out. I was like, oh my gosh,
I'm so sorry. Okay, you don't need to register the
scooter and put that. She's like, mom, stop, I know that,

(44:07):
I know how to organize things, and just I just
want you to listen. Okay. And I've I've had to
take a deep breath and say I'm so sorry. I
got it, I got it. I want to help. I
want to fix. I want to freaking fly out there
and deal with everything that undermines our kids. It makes
them feel we think they're incapable, just like doing their

(44:28):
homework in the fourth grade or the eighth grade does.
It's us telling them I don't think you can be
successful in this grade without me doing your work. We
have to pull back. They need empathy and empowerment. I'm
so sorry, are you okay? Let me give you a hug.
How can I help? Let me listen? You know, and
you can say, do you just want to be listened to,
because I'm here for that. If you want suggestions, I'm

(44:48):
here for that. To let me know you're empowering them
to tell you what they need, and then you can
signal I know this is hard. I know you'll figure
it out. I'm always here if you need advice and guidance.
And then walk away because it's their life. If they're
drowning in the ocean, go get them. If they're about
to walk into traffic, go get them. Okay, those are

(45:10):
the dangers. That's the level of danger where we're supposed
to intervene and handle it and supersede and all of that.
But most of the rest of life is life happening,
and they need to experience it happening because that's how
they learn and get more confident. My overparented twenty one
year old son, he is slowly starting after a downward

(45:31):
spiral with anxiety, which was in part fomented by our
constantly handling and reminding every little thing that teaches them.
Oh my gosh, my parents are so afraid. I can't.
They're handling every little thing for me. We're supposed to
be doing the opposite. We are repatterning with that kid,
and that he is blossoming now. The confidence is coming
as he does more and more and more for himself.

(45:53):
It brings tears to my eyes to see him infused
with the delight he had when he was five before
we started handling every little thing. I hope some of
those stories help. And now for a quick break. Tell
us about how you came up with your last name.
I was Julie Lifco. Dan was Dan Haymes. We were
engaged in and um I knew as a black and

(46:18):
biracial person what it was like when strangers didn't know
that a parent was mine. A lot of times, even
though I look a lot like my white mother growing
up in the Midwest, often people didn't realize that she
was my mother or I was her child. And so
I was really worried about my kids not having the
same last name as me, not knowing my husband's white
and Jewish, and I wanted my kids to have my

(46:39):
last name and their dad's last name. Being a multiracial family,
have no idea what your kids are gonna look like
in terms of skin color and other presentations of ethnicity.
And so we decided we needed to have the same
last name. And I wasn't ready to give up Liftcot,
but was happy to take on Haymes. And I had
found a partner who was happy to take my name
as well. I mean it speak to the uniqueness of

(47:01):
Dan in that moment in the eighties and into the
early nineties. UM. So it's a combination of our two
last names, and we both bear it, and our two
children do as well. What characteristics do you look for
in your friends? To me? Friendship, deep friendship, um, that
small set of people who we can count on, you
can call the middle of the night. These are people
who know my ship and I know their ship, and

(47:22):
we love each other anyway. We've gone deep with one another.
We've had that tough work experience that bonded us. We've
had that tough childhood or adolescent or young adulthood experience
that bonded us. So there's a deep knowing into the
crevices of our life. I would say to you, at
the age of fifty three, I would rather reconnect and
deepen with somebody who already knows me than to try

(47:44):
to make a new friend, simply because of the amount
of time that's required to really be in a place
of deep friendship. So it's it's time commitment. It's a
deep knowing into the crevices. It's rare. I mean it's
not rare. We we often don't have many, is what
I mean by it's rare. But friends are essential for
our wellness. Research says this time and time again. So

(48:05):
when we are busy with kids and with work, we
have to still make time for that small set of
people who are our truest friends, because that's what contributes
to our longevity in the long run, deep abiding friendships
and a very strong primary relationship if we have one.
What is next for you, believe it or not. A
mother daughter memoir. My mother, my amazing mother whom I

(48:29):
alluded to earlier, and I and my husband and kids
have lived in the same house now for twenty plus years,
and it's been wonderful in obvious ways. Childcare, free, childcare.
She also liked to do laundry and ironing, but it's
been hell as well, and so we envisioned, and now
that we're on the other side of it, we've kind

(48:49):
of learned lessons. We envisioned. A memoir co written. My
mother writes a chapter, I write a chapter, and we
alternate all the way through about who we were before
we decided to live in situation together, the years when
it was hellish and awful, and why for each person,
never trying to agree on the page or write together
about the same incident. No, no, no, she's going to
tell what she went through. I'm going to tell what

(49:11):
I did, and so on, and then the third part
is kind of who we became as we've done the
work to undo those patterns. We now have a daily
coffee thanks to the pandemic, and that's been a way
for us to get to know one another as women
and as people. And so we are on the other
side of the of the hellish time, and we think

(49:31):
we can write that memoir to be of service to
people who find themselves living with their grown child or
with their parents as a grown up. Um. So many
of us find ourselves in that circumstance due to finances,
you know, other circumstances or choice, and it comes with
upsides and downsides, and we think our journey can help
others on their journey. Well, we'll start the lightning round.
What book are you reading now? Oh my goodness, I'm

(49:53):
reading Letters to My White Male Friends. It's a brand
new book that is out. I'm actually going to be
in conver station with the author very soon at Politics
and Pros in d c Um. The author is Dax
Devlin Ross Letters to My White Male Friends? Who leaves
You star strack Oprah Winfrey is the first person that

(50:14):
comes to mind. Maybe not an original answer, but I
love who she is. I love how she became through
so much adversity, she became probably one of the top
three most trusted voices on the planet in our lifetime.
I love how she cares for humans so deeply and
seems to speak from the ages and for the ancestors
and for our great great grandchildren. There is a wholeness

(50:38):
to her perspective and a tenderness with which she speaks
that I just find magical. What is your morning routine?
I get up every morning at about I roll over
to my phone, which is on the bedside table. I
know it's not supposed to be, but truth it is.
I check my email, social media. Because my my colleagues,

(50:58):
the people who published me, the people who schedule me,
book me, are on the East Coast. Their day has started,
so I have to sort of wake up and deal
with what's already come in. I then try to work
out on my peloton. I sometimes do, sometimes don't. I
have an eight o'clock coffee with my mother that happens
for an hour. She has an attached cottage now, so
I go over there to her cottage. We have coffee
together and we chat, and then I get myself ready,

(51:22):
so I usually don't take my first meeting or call
until ten, which I realized is a very privileged thing.
That said, I'm often you know, working into the evening
hours to get it all done, and typically working about
six days a week. Right now, things are really busy.
I do like to do the New York Times cross Word.
I do that at night, but it is part of
my routine. My husband and I compete. He doesn't realize
we're competing. I mean that is to say he's not competitive,

(51:42):
but I am. And I was able to tell him recently.
To be loved in my family growing up was to
win when at the cross word, when at poker, when
at anything. I felt loved when I won. And so
I realized that my competitiveness comes apart from a longing
for love. So he said to me, so, if by
beach at the cross word, which he usually does, if
I tell you I love you after I say I'm done,

(52:04):
will that be enough? And I looked at him and
I said, yes it will. So now whenever he beats
me at the New York Times Crossword, he's like, okay,
I'm done. I love you and I feel it. And
it's been just the most amazing, insightful, tiny gift. All
right with that, Lue Burns, what about the parents like
me who are like, like not full time parents, who

(52:26):
struggle with the idea of being a parent. But I
also want to be like a friend and you know,
learning how to say no, and like, do you have
advice for us, because I'm what I'm dealing with is
a twelve year old girl who loves dance. She's very smart,
very inquisitive, you know, but things like telling her to
like just do the dishes. I'm like, no, I didn't

(52:48):
do that, you know, Like, what is that? My mama
told me to do the dishes. She even had to
tell me. She just looked at the dishes and just
but it was a different time, you know. It's off.
He's obviously a different circumstance to things, and they're both
embedded in your beautiful question, Lou, I'm so glad your
twelve year old daughter has you. Um. What she needs
from you, as all children need from all parents, is

(53:09):
unconditional love. She needs to be cherished for who she is,
not because of how smart she is or how amazing
she is a dance, but because she exists, and you
show her that. We all show our kids that by
looking them in the eye. When she comes to your
house for the weekend, or you pick her up, you
look her in the eye and you let love fill
your face. You say, baby, is so good to see you.

(53:30):
How are you? You're asking how are you? Not? How
did school go? How to dance? I don't just how
are you? I'm so glad to see you, so glad
to spend the weekend with you. It's just just cherishing,
and you show it with your body language but also
your actual language. Okay, we all want this. By the way,
think of how that would make you feel if you
showed up at someone's house and they're just like, so

(53:50):
good to see you, Welcome, come in, canna make you
something to drink, Sit down, get comfortable. How are you Okay?
That is a way to signal that you love her
as she is. Then you do want to delight in
the things that matter to her, So you lean in
after she's settled in a bit, say when you're ready,
I would love an update on dance, on school. If

(54:11):
there's anyone important in your life that I need to
know about it, I'm here ready to listen. You know
your opening space without asking, leading questions or prying. That's
demonstrating further unconditional love and respect. And then the chores
are essential to and you're gonna love my ted talk
because it comes down to love and chores as the
two most important things. We have to teach our kids

(54:33):
how to work. We have to teach them to be
accountable and responsible, or whilse they will flounder like veal,
they will be nothing. They will be slaughtered in the workplace.
Chores are how they learn a work ethic. Chores are
how they learn there are things that have to be done,
even if I don't want to. They must learn that
in our homes or else they will fall apart out
in the real world. So it is not cruel to

(54:55):
ask her to do chores. You say, we all got
to participate in making this house run. Here that you
can talk about which chores she doesn't have to do,
the ones she absolutely hates. Maybe you can have a
conversation about Look, chores need to be done, but I
don't mean for it to be torture. Is there something
you'd rather do than the dishes? Would you rather pick
up a duster and do the entire house? Would you

(55:16):
rather vacuum like you might have a set of things.
Give her some choice, but create the expectation that, yep,
chores get must be done. We all do chores that
we can all relax a little bit. Inviting our kids
to do the work of family life gives them, effectively
a family membership card that makes them feel metaphorically, a
family membership card that makes them feel a sense of belonging.

(55:36):
They're more likely to participate and contribute, more likely to
be mentally well, and have the confidence and competence that
comes from the skills they're being taught. So making them
do chores are is a way of showing love in
a way. Um So that's my answer. I hope it's useful,
and I'm really really glad you asked Amy. I have
to admit I am a little obsessed with Julie and

(55:59):
hurt By, and as you know, because we've talked about
this so much, I'm obsessed with parenting and obsessed with
always improving my parenting, and my teens remind me every
day of how wrong I am or what I'm doing
wrong I should say. And I feel like Julie has
given me a new tool kit. She has a lot
of advice, that's for sure. I think, I know you're
obsessed with parenting. I love being a parent, but I

(56:21):
am less obsessed with the tactics of it. However, I
learned a ton which I think is really important. She
thinks there's just a lot of space for kids to
grow and be and that we should kind of step
back in a lot of ways. And interestingly, for me,
Sam that was sort of validating because sometimes I wonder,
like my kids are really little, but like, am I

(56:43):
involved enough? Do I care enough? You know, my second
child is slower to writing and reading than my first child,
and I'm kind of like it'll happen. I agree with that.
With reading, like I never ever pushed my kids to read,
because I feel feel like kids are now pushed too
early to read and they shouldn't know how to read
until first grade anyway, technically, and that's how it used
to be. But you know what else I really loved

(57:05):
is that I felt like Julie put a lot of
things in perspective. So I remember going into my daughter's
I think it was like her fifth grade classroom, and
we were talking about homework, and I probably raised my hand,
probably like self righteously and was like, I've never helped
with homework. And then this other mom raised her hand

(57:26):
and said that every night she checks her kids homework
to make sure it's correct. And I was like waiting
for the teacher to be all over that parent about
how ridiculous that was, and instead she's like, well, that's
a really good thing to do. And I was like,
what holy hell are we in right now? Like why
are parents checking homework? Isn't that the whole point of

(57:47):
having a teacher. Isn't that the point of knowing what
your child did wrong? And right? Like where's the growth?
And why are we encouraging parents to helicopter And I
think that, you know, in my home, we really are
the opposite said of helicopter parents. However, I think the
part that we do do wrong is maybe put too
much emphasis on the grades or too much emphasis on

(58:09):
the outcome and not enough on the process, you know.
I think that's a really fair point. And part of
it is like there's joy in the process, right if
we don't think about the outcome, Like there's just a
lot of joy too, simple things and simple days with
the kids, And if we're constantly focused on what the
outcome is I think we can miss a lot of
that joy and that question, that my favorite question, what

(58:30):
lights you up? Your job in high school to figure
out what lights you up? And that is just that
is gold. I think it's so it's so much gold.
You know. At the end of the Sam, We've both
said to each other, we could have talked to Julie
for about eight more hours, so maybe we can get
her to come back on because I think we should.
Thanks for listening to What's Her Story with Sam and Amy.

(58:52):
We would so appreciate if you would leave a review
wherever you get your podcasts, and of course, connect with
us on social media at What's Her Story podcast. What's
Her Story with Sam and Amy is powered by my company,
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park Place Payments at park place payments dot Com. Thanks
to our producer Stacy Para, our social media manager Phoebe

(59:13):
crane Fest, and our male perspective Blue Burns. Hey, Julie,
did use anything in your hair to make it so curly?
You know, lou bless you. I'm this bi racial black
kid who didn't know what to do with my hair
for so much in my life right, which meant there
weren't products. Yes, no, I have great products. Um. Miss

(59:34):
Jesse's is great hair products for um, multiracial folks, um,
the whole slew of things. But they even have a
Miss Jesse's Multiracial curls. My son uses that my hair
has really thinned a lot. Once I started loving it,
I didn't realize it was going to leave me. So
it used to be like big, like umbrella twists. So

(59:56):
I'm sad that I'm losing it. Miss Jesse's is gray. Um. Um. Actually,
if you email me, I have a bunch of different brands,
so just email me and I'll pop back just a
couple that she could try. Mixed Chicks is also good. Um,
it's a it's a brand. Um. Bumble and Bumble has
some good stuff, although they may have just I buy

(01:00:17):
in bulks, so I often have stuff that they've now discontinued. Um,
but Bumble and Bumble Um. Calming cream or defining cream
is good. But basically it's the hair when wet, it's
got to be combed through with fingers raped through or
really wide toothcomb. Never brush when wet, and then a
lot of leaving you know, towel dry combed through with

(01:00:38):
a white toothcomb, and then a lot of leaving conditioner
that like fills the palm depending on how much hair
she has, and then just leave in conditioner and then
you let it set. You don't touch it.