April 15, 2021 • 35 mins
When one of our past guests is all over the news, we get excited! It was no surprise that when Kim filed for divorce from Kanye, she chose attorney to the stars Laura Wasser. This week on What’s Her Story, we’re resharing our conversation with Laura who explains the importance of a prenup, why she chose not to marry either of her kids’ dads, and hilarious stories about how she wins.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Amy Nelson and I'm Sam Edith and this
is what's her story. With Sam and Amy, we share
with you untold stories of the world's most remarkable women.
And today we are sharing a story of the world's
(00:20):
most famous divorce attorney, Laura Wasser, who truly is the
most famous divorce lawyer in the Land of Broken Dreams,
Los Angeles. Laura has been a family attorney for over
twenty years and she's also the founder of It's Over Easy,
which is an online divorce site which makes divorce easy.
It was really fascinating to talk to Laura. And one
(00:41):
of the things that I find really interesting about Laura.
You know, as a lawyer myself, I practice litigation for
ten years, I worked just with big companies right there
really weren't names or faces. Laura, as a divorced attorney,
gets into people's lives. She knows the grittiest details about
some of the hardest times that people go through. Right now,
obviously is such an unusual time. We're all still it
(01:04):
during COVID and we're stuck at home with the same
people for days, hours on end. It used to be
that we most of us will go to an office
your kids go to school and you come home and
have a couple of hours together at night. But now
suddenly those are the people were doing everything with all
day long. So relationships are changing. We are seeing more
(01:28):
people um registering and then filing for divorce, but it's
not a skyrocket. I really do think that a lot
of families have shifted the way that they do things.
I think there's a lot more shared responsibility for kids
and housework because people are home. And I also think
that people are really digging into dealing with issues that
(01:50):
they have in their relationships and marriages, which you couldn't
always do. Before. It was always easy to leave. You
could walk out, you could have a beer with the guys,
or meet your girlfriends or at a book club. Now
you're really kind of stuck there. And so I think
a lot of people have said, Hey, if I'm in
this for the long haul, let's really figure out a
way to make this work. I've spoken to a lot
of therapists who are doing online couples therapy, and people
(02:13):
are getting into it, and I think it's really working,
and I know that if it doesn't, they will know
that they really gave it their best shot. Laura has
represented everyone from Angelina Jolie to Kim Kardashian to some
of the most famous celebrities and high profile people in
the world. How did you get to that point where
(02:34):
they're calling Laura Wasser? I don't know, I mean, I guess.
I mean. I grew up here in Los Angeles. My
dad is and was a family law attorney, so he
had been doing it for a long time. Um. I
went to Beverly Hills High School, so I knew a
lot of people who went on to become actors, directors,
business managers, agents, and I also think word of mouth.
(02:56):
One of the things that we do at our firm
is really really stressed the importance of confidentiality. I have,
like you know, racked my brain to figure out ways
that we can keep things from the media. I've gone
head to head with a few of the different you know,
the heads of TMZ and the Blast in terms of
why I don't think that divorce filing should be public
(03:18):
in the state of California. That legislation hasn't changed, but
definitely keeping things that are people's personal business, particularly if
it could affect their kids out of the spotlight. Has
something become something that we're known for, and I think
that is a word of mouth reason why people will
come to us or send their clients to us. What's
(03:39):
the difference between representing someone who's ultra famous and representing
the you know, the boy or girl next door. Very little, actually, Sam,
I mean really the fact is that you know, maybe
some of those people will have a little bit more money. Um. Again,
as I said, you have to be a little bit
more careful with media. If your client, like stumbles out
of a club drunk and you know, paparazzi are there,
(04:01):
it's going to be more of an issue than if
there're nobody and nobody takes a picture of them. But
one other thing that I would say again, the people
we represent at the firm that may not be necessarily famous,
they still are relatively wealthy. And I have found that
dealing with wealthy and famous people, they're very used to
(04:22):
being told yes, and particularly if everybody else that they
surround themselves with our people that are making a percentage
of their earning. So you've got a an agent and
a manager and a publicist and they're all getting a percentage.
So they want those people in front of the camera
or if they're a director behind the camera or on
the you know, football or basketball field, and they want
(04:44):
to make sure that they're actually working because that's how
the trickle down gets paid. There's no shame in that.
I get paid by the hour, whether you win or lose,
and so I'm going to be often the one person
that says, yeah, that doesn't that's not going to happen,
and they're like, what do you mean? And then they
turned to their manager did you just say? And I said,
it's not gonna happen. You're not going to get full
custody of your kids. We live in California. It's a
(05:05):
shared custody state unless your ex really was like burning
them with cigarettes or has like a heroin addict is
a heroin addict. We're going to share custody. So let's
get real. And you know, sometimes they say I don't
like her, let's find somebody else, And often those same
people will come back to me and be like, I
should have listened to you at the beginning. But for
the most part, I think people are happy to hear
(05:25):
straight up and in really straight terms, not too much
legallyse how the process works, because it's really scary and
no matter how smart or rich or famous you are.
If you haven't been through a divorce before, you don't
know anything about divorce. Why would you? Sam and I
are both big believers in the power of relationships and networking.
(05:46):
How did you as you're growing the business and even
today kind of build those relationships maintain those relationships? I
think of really, and I speak at a lot of
law schools too, and I tell law students this, which
is as an attorney. You know, people make any jokes
all the time, particularly divorce attorney jokes. I mean true
bottom feeders, gross people benefiting off of other people's misery.
(06:07):
You know, if I'm speaking to a law school class
or young lawyers that are doing divorce law, I actually say, like,
we're problem solvers. We're helping people get through the most
difficult time of their lives. But on a bigger scale
for networking and for attorneys in general, and actually for
anybody in business. What I say is the one thing
that you have and you will always have and you
have to like treasure it is your integrity. Boundaries are
(06:30):
hard when you do what I do, because people really
do need their handheld, even if it's a weekend and
their courts aren't open, and there's nothing I can do.
A lot of explanation, a lot of reiteration of the law. UM.
I have always been probably a little bit more accessible
than you know, my kids and my significant others would like.
And I've got partners at the firm that said, I'm
(06:52):
just not going to let people call me on the
weekend or after hours. UM. I generally will respond to
text and phone calls as I can, and I feel
like that's important to a lot of my clients and
they appreciate that. But when it comes to other things,
like we usually don't hang out together, have dinner, you
get super close with these people and you know all
kinds of things that you know in normal circumstances, they'd
(07:13):
never tell somebody that they don't really know anything you
know about. But and then you know, after the case
is over, they usually go on and you know, the
best I can you know, expect in a restaurant is like, well,
kind of wave to each other across the room because
they're like, oh, she knows everything about like a sort
of affair with a tennis coach or whatever. And I
hope that they have like a mutual level of respect
(07:36):
I don't judge in this business. After twenty five plus years,
you can't, UM, But that's kind of the best that
I can do for boundaries, And most of the time
I think people can appreciate where it's like, I really
enjoy speaking with you, but I don't want to have
dinner with you because we're not friends and I don't
need a free dinner. I want to have dinner with
my kids. What about misogyny in the legal profession and
(07:58):
boundaries around that. I mean, you know, women our half
of lawyers and have been for decades, but we are
very rarely at the top of the legal profession. I
say we, Laura, because I also am a lawyer. I
practiced for ten years before starting the Riveter. But you know,
how do you deal with misogyny in the legal field?
You know, I have been relatively lucky. I have a
very thick skin in terms of you know, honey, baby whatever,
(08:20):
And now at fifty two, I'm happy to get any
kind of like flirtation that I can get. UM. It
doesn't really bother me as much at this age. It
used to be like if a construction worker would yell
at me, I would scowl, And now I kind of
just wave. I'm like, bring it, but you know I
would try to always use it to my advantage. I
mean we we in family law have been fortunate enough
to have a lot of female judicial officers always, and
(08:42):
a lot of great female mentors that I've had. Um,
you use, you go with your strengths. You know, I've
never been a big like screamer or yellow or table banger.
A very very wise woman once said to me, if
you speak more softly, they have to lean in to listen.
I think that's true. I'm not trying to compete with
men at their level. I've had plenty of older judges
(09:05):
and attorneys kind of discount me because I'm a girl,
and also because there was a nepotism aspect too. I
was my dad's daughter, So whereas maybe they wouldn't grab
my ass, they would definitely call me sweetie or honey
or yes I was at your bott mitzva or whatever.
Use it to my advantage. I know those guys if
they are discounting my expertise because I'm a woman, or
(09:26):
because I'm attractive, or because I'm Dennis Wasser's daughter, they
will not be bringing their a game to council table,
and that is where I will absolutely excel. I mean,
I had a lawyer said to me, probably five or
six years ago, you may be prettier and you may
dress better, but I've been doing this a lot longer
than you, and I'm going to win. And we were
standing there and as the judge was reading his order,
(09:47):
I looked at him and I said, I'm prettier and
I dress better, and you're so not winning. And it
was like so great. I mean, just you know, I
love it. That's awesome. Now you described yourself as a
hot mess. Tell us about you have two children with
two different um men. Tell us about her personal life.
Why aren't you married or is it by choice? Tell
(10:09):
us that the real deal. I got married when I
was twenty five um and we had a big wedding
at the Beller Hotel and it was absolutely gorgeous and
we each had ten you know, attendance. And we were
married for about fourteen months, and we realized we were
too young and way too different, and so we very
amicably split up. And when I told my parents that
(10:32):
we were getting divorced, they were like, we totally get it.
We understand we will not be paying for another wedding.
So I'd say that might be the first reason that
I haven't gotten married again. The second might be that
I do that was such a gorgeous wedding, and we
have so many gorgeous pictures. I know I'll never look
that good, So what's the point? Um? Both of my kids, UM,
(10:53):
were the result of very monogamous, serious, committed relationships. UM.
Both of them were people that I knew, I wanted
to know for the rest of my life, and I
you know, and and they're still in my life and
we co parent well. One of them, my younger son's dad,
has an older an older child who's like my child.
(11:15):
When I refer to my kids, I refer to three kids,
because she's amazing. They're all five years apart, so I've
got twenty, fifteen and ten. And I'm so blessed not
only to have been able to raise and be raising
these amazing humans, but also to have fantastic familial relationships
with their dads. My mom died last summer. They were
(11:35):
both totally there for me. We do holidays together, we
work stuff out, and I think not only being super
lucky to have these great family relationships, but I'm also
really able to say to my clients, like I practice
what I preach. I'm telling you, this is possible. You
can be at a birthday party together, you can figure
out a custody schedule, if you may have a changing
(11:58):
you know, work dynamic. This is possible. I know it
because I've done it, and I haven't done it through
any complicated like legally, as we don't have a piece
of paper between us, me and either of the baby daddies,
and we make it work. That's, by the way, that's incredible.
So you if you were talking to a client who
was telling you that they had a child with a
(12:18):
baby daddy, would you advise them not to have any paperwork? No,
because they're not me and they don't have co parents
that live in fear. But yeah, for the most part,
I think having something structured is important. And look, they
probably wouldn't be asking me if they knew everything was
totally copasetic and fine. But as a as a professional
and as somebody that gives legal advice, my advice is
(12:39):
always to have it in writing, to have something that's
set forth because you never know what may happen. I mean,
people that were doing totally chill, custody arrangements, pre COVID.
All of a sudden are calling me up and going
that he has his girlfriend over there and she's totally
not wearing a mask and her kids don't wear masks,
and everyone's dirty and I've seen them not wash their hands,
and I don't want my kids going there. So things
(13:00):
can change. So I relate a lot to your story
because when I was twenty five, I had the New
York version of what you had. I got. I had
a starter marriage, marrying this great guy. We had this
huge wedding at the Pierre Hotel, this guilt about how
much money my parents spent on that wedding in hindsight,
a zillion bridesmaids and groomsman and two fifty people there.
(13:23):
And then a couple of years later we realized like
I was a baby, I was the worst wife ever.
I was totally not ready for that role and it was.
But that was my first experience with a divorce attorney
because I remember at the time he hired this guy,
Norm Shireski. Is that him in this kind of shark
lawyer in New York City? And I was like, for
(13:45):
what we have? Nothing? Like what what? What? Is he.
I think he was just upset with me at the time,
and so I hired this lawyer in New York and
I remember vividly her trying to get me to go
after more and I just kept thinking, we have no kids.
I don't on anything. I really don't want anything. I
just want to have peace. You know. I don't have
any hostility towards this person. He's a lovely person, like
(14:07):
just wasn't meant to be. But I think what's interesting
about your role is you really do have such a
hand in that future relationship. How do you navigate that?
As I said, I've gone through it, and I've watched
so many others go through it, and I feel like
you know that idea of like peace. And even though
(14:31):
you guys didn't have kids, your experience, while not like
one of your best experiences, I'm sure taught you something.
And I don't know if you're still in touch with
your ex at all, but at least it's a fond memory.
I mean, that idea of like going out and getting them.
I mean, I just I don't understand those divorce attorneys there.
They exist in all states. But I say to people
all the time, the more you guys argue the more
(14:54):
money we make and you and this is like, this
is like a this is a finite amount to funds
that are available. Why don't you keep them for yourselves
and for your kids as opposed to paying them to
other people to make your ex miserable. Also, the animosity,
I mean, it's not just the financial cost, it's the
emotional cost to be like going after somebody, spend the
money on therapy, get over the issues that you're having,
(15:16):
and then move on to your next chapter. I mean,
it's so interesting to me, and it always has been.
What a taboo divorce seems to be. So many years
after you know, divorces became the norm. Fifty percent of
people that get married in the United States get divorced.
That's still true. Um, the fact that it's still like,
(15:37):
oh my god. I mean, yes, it's terribly difficult and hurtful,
as is the end of any significant relationship. But I
just feel like, if you can get there, we it's
over easy. We talk about the evolution of dissolution. I
want to make it easier, at least legally and financially
for people so that their kids then aren't aren't the
ones who suffer from the animosity between their parents. And
(15:59):
I know it as possible because my parents did it
that way and I will do it. I have done
it that way, and you have healthier kids, you have
healthier society. If this is something that's going to happen,
because indeed, humans were not meant to mate for life.
In most cases, if you found your soul, might you're
gonna be with him or her the rest of your life.
God bless you. I'm not some divorce monger, but if
you're not happy, you really want your kids to be
(16:20):
looking at two unhappy people. I would rather have my
kids see me happy and unattached than you know, untendably
unhappy in a relationship. So, knowing that half of marriages
(16:45):
even today end in divorce, do you recommend pre nups? Absolutely,
I recommend prenups, and and again, prenups aren't for everybody. Um,
there are certain situations where prenuptial agreement is unnecessary. But
here's what is necessary. Area. You know, people are like,
I don't want to have a pre nup because I
don't want to pre negotiate or into into contract from
my marriage. Dude, you're entering into a contract for a marriage,
(17:08):
and so many people don't even know what that contract
is in their state. Educate yourself as to the laws
in your state, both when you're married and if you
were to get divorced, spousal support, property division. Um, you
know what, what's alone? Is her student loan going to
be something that I'm responsible for if we split up,
figure that out, and then if there's parts of that
(17:30):
that that don't work for you, then say I'm okay
with this contract that we're entering into, but I'd like
to opt out of these things. And again that's one
of the reasons that you know, other people have decided
not to get married. If you've been who you are
for however many years, and you make that much money
from going and starring in a film or doing an
album or being a kick ass litigator, you may not
(17:52):
want to share fifty cents on the dollar with the
person that you're giving an amazing life to, who you
have rad sex with, who's your absolute soul mate. If
you split up, you're on the train. It's a party train.
The train is happy. But if we break up, I
don't want to give you the fruits of that labor
because I work too hard to get to where I am.
Those are the kind of things I think are important.
(18:13):
And furthermore, I feel like other discussions to be had
while the bloom is on the rose. My elderly parents,
may you know, at some point need to come live
with us? Are you cool with that or are you
insisting on assisted living? How much are we putting aside
for retirement? Our kids going to go to private, public, parochial?
What kind of schools? People don't talk about this stuff
(18:34):
because it's not sexy. It's so much better to like,
isn't my dress great? And doesn't my waist look small?
And aren't these good flowers? And are we going to
have a band or a string quartet or a dj
That stuff's fun. But if you can have some of them,
not as fun and not as sexy or romantic conversations
before you get married, I have found that people actually
stay married longer or indefinitely as a result of having
(18:58):
some of those very realistic conversations. Because this is a partner,
a partner in business, a partner in life. And I
say to women all the time, if he's going to
be in there with you in the delivery room, and
you know whatever, it is eight times out of ten
when you give birth, you poop on the table. He's
seeing that. Let's talk about money, because no one ever
wants to talk about money. Oh it's so uncomfortable. So
(19:18):
let's talk about money, because I spend every day saying
to people, just like you're going to talk about guys,
intersex life at that next girl's dinner, please talk about
money like it's the longest relationship you're ever gonna have
in your life as a relationship with money. So get
to know it and get comfortable and confident talking about it.
And yeah, and so one of the things that I
live in l A also, and like you, every day
(19:41):
I see so many couples where and I think probably
per capita, we have more couples where the delta between
the man's age and the woman's age is you know,
growing or enormous. And that's never been my thing, but
it's a lot of women's thing. Is Is that a
money thing? Or is that? I mean, what would you
say if suddenly your daughter told you she's married someone
(20:04):
thirty years older? I mean, what role does money play?
And all play? What I don't, I don't, I don't
have a should. Everybody makes a deal in every relationship,
romantic and otherwise. But let's talk about romantic for a second.
So in that kind of what do they call it
a June December romance or whatever. It's not always just money.
There's a there's some people have you know, daddy issues.
(20:25):
They never were they never felt taken care of by
another person, an older male. Um. Sometimes it's power in
this town. It's not always just the actual money. It's
the idea of walking into a restaurant having everybody say, oh,
Mr so and so in your table and whatever. Also,
you know, this is a tough town. Everybody's gorgeous, and
so maybe you know, some of these young women would
(20:47):
rather be with somebody who can really appreciate the way
they look. Then somebody who's you know, hair for hair
got more waxing than they do, or botox than they do,
or teeth rightening than they do. So, I mean, there's
a lot of things that go into it, and you
have to really observe it. But I will say this,
I have seen many relationships where one person is older
(21:08):
or maybe just not as attractive, but certainly wealthier, and
what he or she brings to the table is that
experience and that perhaps power and that black card. And
then the other person who may be much better looking,
aesthetically younger. What is that person bringing to the table
besides just being arm candy? Does he or she make
(21:28):
the dinner reservations? Is here she give a great blowjob?
What is it that they're bringing to the table. And
often if there's a shift, for example, two thou when
stock markets went past, you know this, this COVID thing.
Now the money situation is a little bit different. So
what happens on the other end, and by the same token,
what happens ten fifteen years hence when the arm candy
(21:50):
isn't looking good anymore. I have had so many cases
where I've done repeat business with a client and I'm like,
oh my god, his new wife looks so much like
his old wife did fifteen years ago. It's no uts,
It's okay as long as everybody knows what the terms are,
and I do. I think people go for security, and
that's okay. I mean, look, who far be it from
us to say what what should be important to you
(22:12):
in in in a relationship. But as long as everybody
is kind of clear about it, I think you can
really sustain anything. If you could change one thing about
women's relationship to money. What would it be like you
guys said, talk about it. We so often abdicate our
responsibility about money, not just not talking about it, but
but not not in engaging. If you're in a relationship,
(22:34):
even if your spouse is the one that makes the money,
if you're going to be a partner to him or her,
get in there. And if there's a quarterly meeting with
the business managers, if there's you know, people tell me stories, Oh,
I hit all the boxes in my car because I
didn't want him to see them. Whatever. That's okay, but
at least come up with whatever the monthly budget is.
So often I see people breaking up because they have
(22:56):
no ability to communicate about what's happening financially, and they're
really relationship. Whether it's a rebuild of a house, whether
it's a gambling problem, whether it's a loss of a job.
If your partner truly feels like you are a partner
to him or her, then he or she is going
to be a lot more likely to pull you through
things with them, and you will never be in that position.
As so many women have that have come into my
(23:18):
office gorgeous women, perfectly dressed. Personal shopper at Neemann's Barney's
when it was around, could get a table at any
restaurant in this city, belong to all the private clubs.
And they say, I have am so embarrassed. I have
no idea what we have, what we earn, what our
asset to debt ratio is. All of my credit cards
are even my husband's accounts. I just have a card
(23:40):
on them. And I I'm terrified, and I'm like, well,
here's the good news. You will never be in this
situation again. We're gonna learn right now where all the
bodies are buried. We're gonna get you your own credit card,
even if it's an American Express Green card with You're
gonna start building some credit. That would be what I
could change is that people really don't just give it
up because as the castle is waiting for them to
(24:02):
move into. On the flip side of that, you know,
if you haven't planned dwell and you're dealing with that
kind of in the divorce. But what's the biggest mistake
people make in divorce. I'd say one of the biggest
mistakes people make in divorce is thinking somehow that you're
going to be able to exact you know, pain or
revenge from the other party. You're both going to be miserable.
(24:23):
You're gonna always be making a face, which then will
lead to either significant necessity of botox or some other
kind of reconfiguration. Will be much more difficult for you
to get back out there and start dating. Figure out
a way to be kind. There's something about this person
that you at one point loved. Okay, you and he
had laughed together, you made love, you made babies, you
(24:44):
went through things. Think back on that period of time
and figure out a way to know. You're gonna know
your spouse or ex spouse or co parent or whatever
you want to call him or her much longer than
you're going to know that divorce attorney who seems to
be your bff right now, who's also you know send
you a bill every month. That would be one of
the biggest mistakes. I think people make one question before
(25:05):
we go to our lightning round is uh, have you
ever counseled a couple back together on more than one occasion? UM?
I do mediation, so I will counsel couples together for mediation.
And also if I'm just representing one party. I will
often say to him or her, you're not ready to
be divorced yet, why don't you go back and say this,
(25:26):
or maybe we can get in a four way meeting
with your spouse and his or her attorney. And I
have absolutely said for a myriad of reasons, some because
I'm such a romantic, you're still in love. You need
to stay together. And some you guys, actually cannot function
if you split up. You can't continue doing what you're
each doing, either for your kids or for your careers
or whatever else. If you're friends and you can make
(25:47):
this work for another period of time, and you get
into some intense therapy, let's figure out if we can
work it. And I've had couples come up to me.
Those are the ones that actually get up and cross
the restaurant and say, you save my marriage. Thank you
so much. I can't even thank you enough. So yes,
I have. And I want people to be happy and
to be able to thrive in whatever configuration their relationship
(26:07):
is in. What about all of those people that stay
together for the kids and they're fine, like we mean,
and I always talked about this. We know so many
people that are kind of just like stuck in their life,
like they have a very vanilla life, like it's fine,
and they're they're kind of think, oh, well, that's all
(26:28):
there is to life, it's fine. I mean, do those
people should they stay with their kids, with it with
their spouse because of the kids, or should they be
seeking this this romance or this soul mate out there?
What's your thought on that. I couldn't tell somebody else
what to do. I wouldn't stay in it. Um. But people,
they're not always just staying together for the kids, because
(26:49):
I think now in we realize kids are going to
be fine. If you're fine, your kids will be fine.
So they're not staying together just for the kids. They're
probably staying together because they're afraid to see what's out
there beyond, and hey, it may not be so great
out there. I can't always promise everybody that you're gonna
fall madly in love in your next relationship, where you're
gonna get some amazing career that you It could suck,
(27:11):
but you don't know until you try. And some people
really are afraid of the unknown. I get it. It
is scary. Um. I think until you're really really ready,
until it's gotten less than vanilla. Like maybe like rancid vanilla,
you can't actually get out. It doesn't have to be
that somebody's like beating the ship out of you, but
it can be like I'm just so unfulfilled and so unhappy.
Talk to us about being a working mother. You know,
(27:33):
two kids, how did What village do you have around you?
What village have you had around you to make this work? Well,
I had until last summer my mom, who was amazing.
We used to do Grandma Bunny Mondays and my mom
would pick them up at school. And so that is
a loss, not just in terms of you know, emotional,
but the fact that she's not there anymore to help
out with that is difficult. Um, I have a nanny,
(27:53):
I have both of the dads. I have very very
good neighbors because I've been living on my street since
before my older son was born and just you know,
staying and I'm on the board of their school, and
so knowing other moms and knowing other people. It does
take a village. I have a great village. But by
the same token, all I've ever known was being a
(28:14):
working mom. Like I barely took three months maternity leave off.
I really love my job, and I also love the
fact that my kids see working parents and they know
what that's like and they're totally fine with that. I've
never missed a school play. I've never missed a dentist appointment.
I mean, I go to everything. I had kids a
little bit later, so I was already a boss by
(28:35):
the time I had them, and I was able to
make my own schedule. But you know, I think in
this day and age, if you tell your employer what's
important to you and you don't kind of I'm lucky.
Knock on wood, my kids aren't sick very often. If
you're able to do it within bounds. I think being
a working parent is really really a rewarding thing, not
just for you, but for your kids because they see
that's how the world works. So aims, should we do
(28:58):
the lightning round? Now? Do it? So? My first question
is are people afraid when they see their spouse seated
next to you at a dinner party? Yes? Absolutely, But
I do have a rule that if I've had dinner
with another couple, I will not represent either of them.
So they're only afraid momentarily till they hear about the rule.
(29:19):
And then they're good. What is your biggest vice? Well,
I would say since the pandemic, it's probably drinking. But
before that, I would say, um, you know, shopping, spending
a lot of money on clothes. It's so funny. So
many people's biggest vice right now is kind of drinking
during the pandemic. And for me, because I have all
these little kids under the age of six, like, I've
had to become completely sober to survive it because they
(29:42):
don't let me sleep and there's no time off. I'll
have one for you tonight. How's that Amy, Thank you, Laura?
What what what are you drinking these days? Laura? Oh? Well,
I have really had to have a rotation because they
just get bored. So throughout the summer there was a
lot of rose all day. I'm a big tequila drinker.
I also love of good vodka martini. I I'm really
(30:03):
very um, you know, nonpartisan. I'll drink pretty much anything. Basically.
Another thing that I was drinking a lot, and I've
kind of tapered down as the summer ended was what's
called a no I'm going to forget the name, but
it was Jackie on Nassis's old bodyguard, and there was
a drink named after him, which was basically campari soda
(30:24):
and vodka. I highly recommend it. And who are you
drinking with right now? Oh? Anybody around. I've got dogs,
the housekeepers here, my children when they finished their remote schooling.
As I said, I've got really good neighbor friends. So
we'll sit in the backyard. But again, non discerning about that,
I'll drink with anybody. If you could change one law,
what would it be? Sure? There are more important laws
(30:46):
than this to be changed, with regard to immigration and
with regard to some of the discrimination stuff. But I'm
going to stay within my wheelhouse. I would make a
law that divorce cases family law cases in the state,
well in all states. If as long as I'm making
laws be sealed, I just don't see the public benefit
to having them all be um. You know available. What
(31:09):
is your morning routine? Well I should mention this because
notwithstanding all of the drinking, I'm very lucky and I
do not get hangovers. So I pop out of bed
every morning at about five five because I have dogs.
I have a new puppy, and so he that's what
time he wakes up. It's time to eat it's not
even light these days at that time, so I get up,
I staggered downstairs. I feed them, I have coffee, and
(31:30):
then I will either go for a run or a
swim and usually be back and ready for action, i'd say,
by which is when I have to wake my son
up for school. We make breakfast, we do. We go
on eight thirty, log on and see what his homework
or work for the day is. He starts at nine
and I usually will start at nine two, and then
(31:50):
I sit here in this chair in my living room
pretty much all day on Zoom calls out, what's your
biggest regret. I would have liked to spent more time traveling.
I don't know how I could have done it once
I had kids and was working with the law practice.
But that I'm not going to say that's advice, because
I don't think there's anything wrong with that. That's my
biggest regret. I would have actually done more traveling and
(32:12):
taken more time off either during the summers or winters
when I could. Now, Laura, we end every interview with
lou Burns, who is our male perspective on the show,
and he always comes out with a final question. So
lou take it away, La Hilu. During this time quarantine,
what have you learned about yourself? This has been Actually
(32:32):
that's a good question because I'd say this whatever, the
six seven months has been a real introspective time. What
I've learned about myself is I I'm a mover. I
need to keep moving. I need to keep pushing and moving.
And I've learned about myself that that may not always
serve me. Maybe sit for a minute with some still
and some thought. I've never been good at meditation or
(32:53):
any of the things that have helped so many people
through this, and I and I think I could benefit
from that, and I'm I'm starting to try. And I
are not meditators. We um we read books, jakesaw puzzles,
crossroad puzzles or margharita. That's my meditation, Laura, I'm so jealous.
I get terrible hangovers, which is the reason I've had
to quit drinking during COVID, because I cannot parent well hungover.
(33:14):
So I call them my beverage book ends. So I'm
morning latte. I'm addicted to my Starbucks and then my
evening glass of wine, and I like look forward to
both of those book ends. Yes, absolutely, I can't drink
coffee past about like eleven or twelve in the day.
I can have that first cup in the morning and
that's it. And but Amy, like I gotta say, I
think if you keep trying, you can really push through
(33:35):
this whole tolerance thing. And maybe I mean, I don't know,
Hope springs eternal. Final thoughts from Laura Wasser Well, Amy,
I wish it wasn't COVID because I think would be
really fun to have like a spicy Margherita with Laura Weser. Yes,
and I would like to follow her advice and just
(33:56):
really try to get my tolerance back up. I long
for a few cocktails with you and Laura and some
other women that I haven't seen in way too long.
Thank you all for listening to What's Her Story with
Sam and Amy. We have loved hearing Laura's story and
we hope you did too, And if you haven't caught
some of other episodes, we encourage you to listen to
(34:17):
some of the other women's stories that we've been able
to profile recently, Arianna Huffington's pod Master Warrior and Glennon
Abbey and many others. And we have many more to come.
Our episodes come out every Thursday, and we want to
thank our production team, Large Media, a woman owned team
that we love working with, as well as our podcast
(34:38):
associate Emma Hard and our male perspective Lou Burns. And
this podcast is powered by my company, park Place Payments,
which you can find at park Place Payments dot com
and Amy's company, The Riveter, which you can find at
the Riveter dot co
Hi, I'm Amy Nelson and I'm Sam Edith and this
is what's her story. With Sam and Amy, we share
with you untold stories of the world's most remarkable women.
And today we are sharing a story of the world's
(00:20):
most famous divorce attorney, Laura Wasser, who truly is the
most famous divorce lawyer in the Land of Broken Dreams,
Los Angeles. Laura has been a family attorney for over
twenty years and she's also the founder of It's Over Easy,
which is an online divorce site which makes divorce easy.
It was really fascinating to talk to Laura. And one
(00:41):
of the things that I find really interesting about Laura.
You know, as a lawyer myself, I practice litigation for
ten years, I worked just with big companies right there
really weren't names or faces. Laura, as a divorced attorney,
gets into people's lives. She knows the grittiest details about
some of the hardest times that people go through. Right now,
obviously is such an unusual time. We're all still it
(01:04):
during COVID and we're stuck at home with the same
people for days, hours on end. It used to be
that we most of us will go to an office
your kids go to school and you come home and
have a couple of hours together at night. But now
suddenly those are the people were doing everything with all
day long. So relationships are changing. We are seeing more
(01:28):
people um registering and then filing for divorce, but it's
not a skyrocket. I really do think that a lot
of families have shifted the way that they do things.
I think there's a lot more shared responsibility for kids
and housework because people are home. And I also think
that people are really digging into dealing with issues that
(01:50):
they have in their relationships and marriages, which you couldn't
always do. Before. It was always easy to leave. You
could walk out, you could have a beer with the guys,
or meet your girlfriends or at a book club. Now
you're really kind of stuck there. And so I think
a lot of people have said, Hey, if I'm in
this for the long haul, let's really figure out a
way to make this work. I've spoken to a lot
of therapists who are doing online couples therapy, and people
(02:13):
are getting into it, and I think it's really working,
and I know that if it doesn't, they will know
that they really gave it their best shot. Laura has
represented everyone from Angelina Jolie to Kim Kardashian to some
of the most famous celebrities and high profile people in
the world. How did you get to that point where
(02:34):
they're calling Laura Wasser? I don't know, I mean, I guess.
I mean. I grew up here in Los Angeles. My
dad is and was a family law attorney, so he
had been doing it for a long time. Um. I
went to Beverly Hills High School, so I knew a
lot of people who went on to become actors, directors,
business managers, agents, and I also think word of mouth.
(02:56):
One of the things that we do at our firm
is really really stressed the importance of confidentiality. I have,
like you know, racked my brain to figure out ways
that we can keep things from the media. I've gone
head to head with a few of the different you know,
the heads of TMZ and the Blast in terms of
why I don't think that divorce filing should be public
(03:18):
in the state of California. That legislation hasn't changed, but
definitely keeping things that are people's personal business, particularly if
it could affect their kids out of the spotlight. Has
something become something that we're known for, and I think
that is a word of mouth reason why people will
come to us or send their clients to us. What's
(03:39):
the difference between representing someone who's ultra famous and representing
the you know, the boy or girl next door. Very little, actually, Sam,
I mean really the fact is that you know, maybe
some of those people will have a little bit more money. Um. Again,
as I said, you have to be a little bit
more careful with media. If your client, like stumbles out
of a club drunk and you know, paparazzi are there,
(04:01):
it's going to be more of an issue than if
there're nobody and nobody takes a picture of them. But
one other thing that I would say again, the people
we represent at the firm that may not be necessarily famous,
they still are relatively wealthy. And I have found that
dealing with wealthy and famous people, they're very used to
(04:22):
being told yes, and particularly if everybody else that they
surround themselves with our people that are making a percentage
of their earning. So you've got a an agent and
a manager and a publicist and they're all getting a percentage.
So they want those people in front of the camera
or if they're a director behind the camera or on
the you know, football or basketball field, and they want
(04:44):
to make sure that they're actually working because that's how
the trickle down gets paid. There's no shame in that.
I get paid by the hour, whether you win or lose,
and so I'm going to be often the one person
that says, yeah, that doesn't that's not going to happen,
and they're like, what do you mean? And then they
turned to their manager did you just say? And I said,
it's not gonna happen. You're not going to get full
custody of your kids. We live in California. It's a
(05:05):
shared custody state unless your ex really was like burning
them with cigarettes or has like a heroin addict is
a heroin addict. We're going to share custody. So let's
get real. And you know, sometimes they say I don't
like her, let's find somebody else, And often those same
people will come back to me and be like, I
should have listened to you at the beginning. But for
the most part, I think people are happy to hear
(05:25):
straight up and in really straight terms, not too much
legallyse how the process works, because it's really scary and
no matter how smart or rich or famous you are.
If you haven't been through a divorce before, you don't
know anything about divorce. Why would you? Sam and I
are both big believers in the power of relationships and networking.
(05:46):
How did you as you're growing the business and even
today kind of build those relationships maintain those relationships? I
think of really, and I speak at a lot of
law schools too, and I tell law students this, which
is as an attorney. You know, people make any jokes
all the time, particularly divorce attorney jokes. I mean true
bottom feeders, gross people benefiting off of other people's misery.
(06:07):
You know, if I'm speaking to a law school class
or young lawyers that are doing divorce law, I actually say, like,
we're problem solvers. We're helping people get through the most
difficult time of their lives. But on a bigger scale
for networking and for attorneys in general, and actually for
anybody in business. What I say is the one thing
that you have and you will always have and you
have to like treasure it is your integrity. Boundaries are
(06:30):
hard when you do what I do, because people really
do need their handheld, even if it's a weekend and
their courts aren't open, and there's nothing I can do.
A lot of explanation, a lot of reiteration of the law. UM.
I have always been probably a little bit more accessible
than you know, my kids and my significant others would like.
And I've got partners at the firm that said, I'm
(06:52):
just not going to let people call me on the
weekend or after hours. UM. I generally will respond to
text and phone calls as I can, and I feel
like that's important to a lot of my clients and
they appreciate that. But when it comes to other things,
like we usually don't hang out together, have dinner, you
get super close with these people and you know all
kinds of things that you know in normal circumstances, they'd
(07:13):
never tell somebody that they don't really know anything you
know about. But and then you know, after the case
is over, they usually go on and you know, the
best I can you know, expect in a restaurant is like, well,
kind of wave to each other across the room because
they're like, oh, she knows everything about like a sort
of affair with a tennis coach or whatever. And I
hope that they have like a mutual level of respect
(07:36):
I don't judge in this business. After twenty five plus years,
you can't, UM, But that's kind of the best that
I can do for boundaries, And most of the time
I think people can appreciate where it's like, I really
enjoy speaking with you, but I don't want to have
dinner with you because we're not friends and I don't
need a free dinner. I want to have dinner with
my kids. What about misogyny in the legal profession and
(07:58):
boundaries around that. I mean, you know, women our half
of lawyers and have been for decades, but we are
very rarely at the top of the legal profession. I
say we, Laura, because I also am a lawyer. I
practiced for ten years before starting the Riveter. But you know,
how do you deal with misogyny in the legal field?
You know, I have been relatively lucky. I have a
very thick skin in terms of you know, honey, baby whatever,
(08:20):
And now at fifty two, I'm happy to get any
kind of like flirtation that I can get. UM. It
doesn't really bother me as much at this age. It
used to be like if a construction worker would yell
at me, I would scowl, And now I kind of
just wave. I'm like, bring it, but you know I
would try to always use it to my advantage. I
mean we we in family law have been fortunate enough
to have a lot of female judicial officers always, and
(08:42):
a lot of great female mentors that I've had. Um,
you use, you go with your strengths. You know, I've
never been a big like screamer or yellow or table banger.
A very very wise woman once said to me, if
you speak more softly, they have to lean in to listen.
I think that's true. I'm not trying to compete with
men at their level. I've had plenty of older judges
(09:05):
and attorneys kind of discount me because I'm a girl,
and also because there was a nepotism aspect too. I
was my dad's daughter, So whereas maybe they wouldn't grab
my ass, they would definitely call me sweetie or honey
or yes I was at your bott mitzva or whatever.
Use it to my advantage. I know those guys if
they are discounting my expertise because I'm a woman, or
(09:26):
because I'm attractive, or because I'm Dennis Wasser's daughter, they
will not be bringing their a game to council table,
and that is where I will absolutely excel. I mean,
I had a lawyer said to me, probably five or
six years ago, you may be prettier and you may
dress better, but I've been doing this a lot longer
than you, and I'm going to win. And we were
standing there and as the judge was reading his order,
(09:47):
I looked at him and I said, I'm prettier and
I dress better, and you're so not winning. And it
was like so great. I mean, just you know, I
love it. That's awesome. Now you described yourself as a
hot mess. Tell us about you have two children with
two different um men. Tell us about her personal life.
Why aren't you married or is it by choice? Tell
(10:09):
us that the real deal. I got married when I
was twenty five um and we had a big wedding
at the Beller Hotel and it was absolutely gorgeous and
we each had ten you know, attendance. And we were
married for about fourteen months, and we realized we were
too young and way too different, and so we very
amicably split up. And when I told my parents that
(10:32):
we were getting divorced, they were like, we totally get it.
We understand we will not be paying for another wedding.
So I'd say that might be the first reason that
I haven't gotten married again. The second might be that
I do that was such a gorgeous wedding, and we
have so many gorgeous pictures. I know I'll never look
that good, So what's the point? Um? Both of my kids, UM,
(10:53):
were the result of very monogamous, serious, committed relationships. UM.
Both of them were people that I knew, I wanted
to know for the rest of my life, and I
you know, and and they're still in my life and
we co parent well. One of them, my younger son's dad,
has an older an older child who's like my child.
(11:15):
When I refer to my kids, I refer to three kids,
because she's amazing. They're all five years apart, so I've
got twenty, fifteen and ten. And I'm so blessed not
only to have been able to raise and be raising
these amazing humans, but also to have fantastic familial relationships
with their dads. My mom died last summer. They were
(11:35):
both totally there for me. We do holidays together, we
work stuff out, and I think not only being super
lucky to have these great family relationships, but I'm also
really able to say to my clients, like I practice
what I preach. I'm telling you, this is possible. You
can be at a birthday party together, you can figure
out a custody schedule, if you may have a changing
(11:58):
you know, work dynamic. This is possible. I know it
because I've done it, and I haven't done it through
any complicated like legally, as we don't have a piece
of paper between us, me and either of the baby daddies,
and we make it work. That's, by the way, that's incredible.
So you if you were talking to a client who
was telling you that they had a child with a
(12:18):
baby daddy, would you advise them not to have any paperwork? No,
because they're not me and they don't have co parents
that live in fear. But yeah, for the most part,
I think having something structured is important. And look, they
probably wouldn't be asking me if they knew everything was
totally copasetic and fine. But as a as a professional
and as somebody that gives legal advice, my advice is
(12:39):
always to have it in writing, to have something that's
set forth because you never know what may happen. I mean,
people that were doing totally chill, custody arrangements, pre COVID.
All of a sudden are calling me up and going
that he has his girlfriend over there and she's totally
not wearing a mask and her kids don't wear masks,
and everyone's dirty and I've seen them not wash their hands,
and I don't want my kids going there. So things
(13:00):
can change. So I relate a lot to your story
because when I was twenty five, I had the New
York version of what you had. I got. I had
a starter marriage, marrying this great guy. We had this
huge wedding at the Pierre Hotel, this guilt about how
much money my parents spent on that wedding in hindsight,
a zillion bridesmaids and groomsman and two fifty people there.
(13:23):
And then a couple of years later we realized like
I was a baby, I was the worst wife ever.
I was totally not ready for that role and it was.
But that was my first experience with a divorce attorney
because I remember at the time he hired this guy,
Norm Shireski. Is that him in this kind of shark
lawyer in New York City? And I was like, for
(13:45):
what we have? Nothing? Like what what? What? Is he.
I think he was just upset with me at the time,
and so I hired this lawyer in New York and
I remember vividly her trying to get me to go
after more and I just kept thinking, we have no kids.
I don't on anything. I really don't want anything. I
just want to have peace. You know. I don't have
any hostility towards this person. He's a lovely person, like
(14:07):
just wasn't meant to be. But I think what's interesting
about your role is you really do have such a
hand in that future relationship. How do you navigate that?
As I said, I've gone through it, and I've watched
so many others go through it, and I feel like
you know that idea of like peace. And even though
(14:31):
you guys didn't have kids, your experience, while not like
one of your best experiences, I'm sure taught you something.
And I don't know if you're still in touch with
your ex at all, but at least it's a fond memory.
I mean, that idea of like going out and getting them.
I mean, I just I don't understand those divorce attorneys there.
They exist in all states. But I say to people
all the time, the more you guys argue the more
(14:54):
money we make and you and this is like, this
is like a this is a finite amount to funds
that are available. Why don't you keep them for yourselves
and for your kids as opposed to paying them to
other people to make your ex miserable. Also, the animosity,
I mean, it's not just the financial cost, it's the
emotional cost to be like going after somebody, spend the
money on therapy, get over the issues that you're having,
(15:16):
and then move on to your next chapter. I mean,
it's so interesting to me, and it always has been.
What a taboo divorce seems to be. So many years
after you know, divorces became the norm. Fifty percent of
people that get married in the United States get divorced.
That's still true. Um, the fact that it's still like,
(15:37):
oh my god. I mean, yes, it's terribly difficult and hurtful,
as is the end of any significant relationship. But I
just feel like, if you can get there, we it's
over easy. We talk about the evolution of dissolution. I
want to make it easier, at least legally and financially
for people so that their kids then aren't aren't the
ones who suffer from the animosity between their parents. And
(15:59):
I know it as possible because my parents did it
that way and I will do it. I have done
it that way, and you have healthier kids, you have
healthier society. If this is something that's going to happen,
because indeed, humans were not meant to mate for life.
In most cases, if you found your soul, might you're
gonna be with him or her the rest of your life.
God bless you. I'm not some divorce monger, but if
you're not happy, you really want your kids to be
(16:20):
looking at two unhappy people. I would rather have my
kids see me happy and unattached than you know, untendably
unhappy in a relationship. So, knowing that half of marriages
(16:45):
even today end in divorce, do you recommend pre nups? Absolutely,
I recommend prenups, and and again, prenups aren't for everybody. Um,
there are certain situations where prenuptial agreement is unnecessary. But
here's what is necessary. Area. You know, people are like,
I don't want to have a pre nup because I
don't want to pre negotiate or into into contract from
my marriage. Dude, you're entering into a contract for a marriage,
(17:08):
and so many people don't even know what that contract
is in their state. Educate yourself as to the laws
in your state, both when you're married and if you
were to get divorced, spousal support, property division. Um, you
know what, what's alone? Is her student loan going to
be something that I'm responsible for if we split up,
figure that out, and then if there's parts of that
(17:30):
that that don't work for you, then say I'm okay
with this contract that we're entering into, but I'd like
to opt out of these things. And again that's one
of the reasons that you know, other people have decided
not to get married. If you've been who you are
for however many years, and you make that much money
from going and starring in a film or doing an
album or being a kick ass litigator, you may not
(17:52):
want to share fifty cents on the dollar with the
person that you're giving an amazing life to, who you
have rad sex with, who's your absolute soul mate. If
you split up, you're on the train. It's a party train.
The train is happy. But if we break up, I
don't want to give you the fruits of that labor
because I work too hard to get to where I am.
Those are the kind of things I think are important.
(18:13):
And furthermore, I feel like other discussions to be had
while the bloom is on the rose. My elderly parents,
may you know, at some point need to come live
with us? Are you cool with that or are you
insisting on assisted living? How much are we putting aside
for retirement? Our kids going to go to private, public, parochial?
What kind of schools? People don't talk about this stuff
(18:34):
because it's not sexy. It's so much better to like,
isn't my dress great? And doesn't my waist look small?
And aren't these good flowers? And are we going to
have a band or a string quartet or a dj
That stuff's fun. But if you can have some of them,
not as fun and not as sexy or romantic conversations
before you get married, I have found that people actually
stay married longer or indefinitely as a result of having
(18:58):
some of those very realistic conversations. Because this is a partner,
a partner in business, a partner in life. And I
say to women all the time, if he's going to
be in there with you in the delivery room, and
you know whatever, it is eight times out of ten
when you give birth, you poop on the table. He's
seeing that. Let's talk about money, because no one ever
wants to talk about money. Oh it's so uncomfortable. So
(19:18):
let's talk about money, because I spend every day saying
to people, just like you're going to talk about guys,
intersex life at that next girl's dinner, please talk about
money like it's the longest relationship you're ever gonna have
in your life as a relationship with money. So get
to know it and get comfortable and confident talking about it.
And yeah, and so one of the things that I
live in l A also, and like you, every day
(19:41):
I see so many couples where and I think probably
per capita, we have more couples where the delta between
the man's age and the woman's age is you know,
growing or enormous. And that's never been my thing, but
it's a lot of women's thing. Is Is that a
money thing? Or is that? I mean, what would you
say if suddenly your daughter told you she's married someone
(20:04):
thirty years older? I mean, what role does money play?
And all play? What I don't, I don't, I don't
have a should. Everybody makes a deal in every relationship,
romantic and otherwise. But let's talk about romantic for a second.
So in that kind of what do they call it
a June December romance or whatever. It's not always just money.
There's a there's some people have you know, daddy issues.
(20:25):
They never were they never felt taken care of by
another person, an older male. Um. Sometimes it's power in
this town. It's not always just the actual money. It's
the idea of walking into a restaurant having everybody say, oh,
Mr so and so in your table and whatever. Also,
you know, this is a tough town. Everybody's gorgeous, and
so maybe you know, some of these young women would
(20:47):
rather be with somebody who can really appreciate the way
they look. Then somebody who's you know, hair for hair
got more waxing than they do, or botox than they do,
or teeth rightening than they do. So, I mean, there's
a lot of things that go into it, and you
have to really observe it. But I will say this,
I have seen many relationships where one person is older
(21:08):
or maybe just not as attractive, but certainly wealthier, and
what he or she brings to the table is that
experience and that perhaps power and that black card. And
then the other person who may be much better looking,
aesthetically younger. What is that person bringing to the table
besides just being arm candy? Does he or she make
(21:28):
the dinner reservations? Is here she give a great blowjob?
What is it that they're bringing to the table. And
often if there's a shift, for example, two thou when
stock markets went past, you know this, this COVID thing.
Now the money situation is a little bit different. So
what happens on the other end, and by the same token,
what happens ten fifteen years hence when the arm candy
(21:50):
isn't looking good anymore. I have had so many cases
where I've done repeat business with a client and I'm like,
oh my god, his new wife looks so much like
his old wife did fifteen years ago. It's no uts,
It's okay as long as everybody knows what the terms are,
and I do. I think people go for security, and
that's okay. I mean, look, who far be it from
us to say what what should be important to you
(22:12):
in in in a relationship. But as long as everybody
is kind of clear about it, I think you can
really sustain anything. If you could change one thing about
women's relationship to money. What would it be like you
guys said, talk about it. We so often abdicate our
responsibility about money, not just not talking about it, but
but not not in engaging. If you're in a relationship,
(22:34):
even if your spouse is the one that makes the money,
if you're going to be a partner to him or her,
get in there. And if there's a quarterly meeting with
the business managers, if there's you know, people tell me stories, Oh,
I hit all the boxes in my car because I
didn't want him to see them. Whatever. That's okay, but
at least come up with whatever the monthly budget is.
So often I see people breaking up because they have
(22:56):
no ability to communicate about what's happening financially, and they're
really relationship. Whether it's a rebuild of a house, whether
it's a gambling problem, whether it's a loss of a job.
If your partner truly feels like you are a partner
to him or her, then he or she is going
to be a lot more likely to pull you through
things with them, and you will never be in that position.
As so many women have that have come into my
(23:18):
office gorgeous women, perfectly dressed. Personal shopper at Neemann's Barney's
when it was around, could get a table at any
restaurant in this city, belong to all the private clubs.
And they say, I have am so embarrassed. I have
no idea what we have, what we earn, what our
asset to debt ratio is. All of my credit cards
are even my husband's accounts. I just have a card
(23:40):
on them. And I I'm terrified, and I'm like, well,
here's the good news. You will never be in this
situation again. We're gonna learn right now where all the
bodies are buried. We're gonna get you your own credit card,
even if it's an American Express Green card with You're
gonna start building some credit. That would be what I
could change is that people really don't just give it
up because as the castle is waiting for them to
(24:02):
move into. On the flip side of that, you know,
if you haven't planned dwell and you're dealing with that
kind of in the divorce. But what's the biggest mistake
people make in divorce. I'd say one of the biggest
mistakes people make in divorce is thinking somehow that you're
going to be able to exact you know, pain or
revenge from the other party. You're both going to be miserable.
(24:23):
You're gonna always be making a face, which then will
lead to either significant necessity of botox or some other
kind of reconfiguration. Will be much more difficult for you
to get back out there and start dating. Figure out
a way to be kind. There's something about this person
that you at one point loved. Okay, you and he
had laughed together, you made love, you made babies, you
(24:44):
went through things. Think back on that period of time
and figure out a way to know. You're gonna know
your spouse or ex spouse or co parent or whatever
you want to call him or her much longer than
you're going to know that divorce attorney who seems to
be your bff right now, who's also you know send
you a bill every month. That would be one of
the biggest mistakes. I think people make one question before
(25:05):
we go to our lightning round is uh, have you
ever counseled a couple back together on more than one occasion? UM?
I do mediation, so I will counsel couples together for mediation.
And also if I'm just representing one party. I will
often say to him or her, you're not ready to
be divorced yet, why don't you go back and say this,
(25:26):
or maybe we can get in a four way meeting
with your spouse and his or her attorney. And I
have absolutely said for a myriad of reasons, some because
I'm such a romantic, you're still in love. You need
to stay together. And some you guys, actually cannot function
if you split up. You can't continue doing what you're
each doing, either for your kids or for your careers
or whatever else. If you're friends and you can make
(25:47):
this work for another period of time, and you get
into some intense therapy, let's figure out if we can
work it. And I've had couples come up to me.
Those are the ones that actually get up and cross
the restaurant and say, you save my marriage. Thank you
so much. I can't even thank you enough. So yes,
I have. And I want people to be happy and
to be able to thrive in whatever configuration their relationship
(26:07):
is in. What about all of those people that stay
together for the kids and they're fine, like we mean,
and I always talked about this. We know so many
people that are kind of just like stuck in their life,
like they have a very vanilla life, like it's fine,
and they're they're kind of think, oh, well, that's all
(26:28):
there is to life, it's fine. I mean, do those
people should they stay with their kids, with it with
their spouse because of the kids, or should they be
seeking this this romance or this soul mate out there?
What's your thought on that. I couldn't tell somebody else
what to do. I wouldn't stay in it. Um. But people,
they're not always just staying together for the kids, because
(26:49):
I think now in we realize kids are going to
be fine. If you're fine, your kids will be fine.
So they're not staying together just for the kids. They're
probably staying together because they're afraid to see what's out
there beyond, and hey, it may not be so great
out there. I can't always promise everybody that you're gonna
fall madly in love in your next relationship, where you're
gonna get some amazing career that you It could suck,
(27:11):
but you don't know until you try. And some people
really are afraid of the unknown. I get it. It
is scary. Um. I think until you're really really ready,
until it's gotten less than vanilla. Like maybe like rancid vanilla,
you can't actually get out. It doesn't have to be
that somebody's like beating the ship out of you, but
it can be like I'm just so unfulfilled and so unhappy.
Talk to us about being a working mother. You know,
(27:33):
two kids, how did What village do you have around you?
What village have you had around you to make this work? Well,
I had until last summer my mom, who was amazing.
We used to do Grandma Bunny Mondays and my mom
would pick them up at school. And so that is
a loss, not just in terms of you know, emotional,
but the fact that she's not there anymore to help
out with that is difficult. Um, I have a nanny,
(27:53):
I have both of the dads. I have very very
good neighbors because I've been living on my street since
before my older son was born and just you know,
staying and I'm on the board of their school, and
so knowing other moms and knowing other people. It does
take a village. I have a great village. But by
the same token, all I've ever known was being a
(28:14):
working mom. Like I barely took three months maternity leave off.
I really love my job, and I also love the
fact that my kids see working parents and they know
what that's like and they're totally fine with that. I've
never missed a school play. I've never missed a dentist appointment.
I mean, I go to everything. I had kids a
little bit later, so I was already a boss by
(28:35):
the time I had them, and I was able to
make my own schedule. But you know, I think in
this day and age, if you tell your employer what's
important to you and you don't kind of I'm lucky.
Knock on wood, my kids aren't sick very often. If
you're able to do it within bounds. I think being
a working parent is really really a rewarding thing, not
just for you, but for your kids because they see
that's how the world works. So aims, should we do
(28:58):
the lightning round? Now? Do it? So? My first question
is are people afraid when they see their spouse seated
next to you at a dinner party? Yes? Absolutely, But
I do have a rule that if I've had dinner
with another couple, I will not represent either of them.
So they're only afraid momentarily till they hear about the rule.
(29:19):
And then they're good. What is your biggest vice? Well,
I would say since the pandemic, it's probably drinking. But
before that, I would say, um, you know, shopping, spending
a lot of money on clothes. It's so funny. So
many people's biggest vice right now is kind of drinking
during the pandemic. And for me, because I have all
these little kids under the age of six, like, I've
had to become completely sober to survive it because they
(29:42):
don't let me sleep and there's no time off. I'll
have one for you tonight. How's that Amy, Thank you, Laura?
What what what are you drinking these days? Laura? Oh? Well,
I have really had to have a rotation because they
just get bored. So throughout the summer there was a
lot of rose all day. I'm a big tequila drinker.
I also love of good vodka martini. I I'm really
(30:03):
very um, you know, nonpartisan. I'll drink pretty much anything. Basically.
Another thing that I was drinking a lot, and I've
kind of tapered down as the summer ended was what's
called a no I'm going to forget the name, but
it was Jackie on Nassis's old bodyguard, and there was
a drink named after him, which was basically campari soda
(30:24):
and vodka. I highly recommend it. And who are you
drinking with right now? Oh? Anybody around. I've got dogs,
the housekeepers here, my children when they finished their remote schooling.
As I said, I've got really good neighbor friends. So
we'll sit in the backyard. But again, non discerning about that,
I'll drink with anybody. If you could change one law,
what would it be? Sure? There are more important laws
(30:46):
than this to be changed, with regard to immigration and
with regard to some of the discrimination stuff. But I'm
going to stay within my wheelhouse. I would make a
law that divorce cases family law cases in the state,
well in all states. If as long as I'm making
laws be sealed, I just don't see the public benefit
to having them all be um. You know available. What
(31:09):
is your morning routine? Well I should mention this because
notwithstanding all of the drinking, I'm very lucky and I
do not get hangovers. So I pop out of bed
every morning at about five five because I have dogs.
I have a new puppy, and so he that's what
time he wakes up. It's time to eat it's not
even light these days at that time, so I get up,
I staggered downstairs. I feed them, I have coffee, and
(31:30):
then I will either go for a run or a
swim and usually be back and ready for action, i'd say,
by which is when I have to wake my son
up for school. We make breakfast, we do. We go
on eight thirty, log on and see what his homework
or work for the day is. He starts at nine
and I usually will start at nine two, and then
(31:50):
I sit here in this chair in my living room
pretty much all day on Zoom calls out, what's your
biggest regret. I would have liked to spent more time traveling.
I don't know how I could have done it once
I had kids and was working with the law practice.
But that I'm not going to say that's advice, because
I don't think there's anything wrong with that. That's my
biggest regret. I would have actually done more traveling and
(32:12):
taken more time off either during the summers or winters
when I could. Now, Laura, we end every interview with
lou Burns, who is our male perspective on the show,
and he always comes out with a final question. So
lou take it away, La Hilu. During this time quarantine,
what have you learned about yourself? This has been Actually
(32:32):
that's a good question because I'd say this whatever, the
six seven months has been a real introspective time. What
I've learned about myself is I I'm a mover. I
need to keep moving. I need to keep pushing and moving.
And I've learned about myself that that may not always
serve me. Maybe sit for a minute with some still
and some thought. I've never been good at meditation or
(32:53):
any of the things that have helped so many people
through this, and I and I think I could benefit
from that, and I'm I'm starting to try. And I
are not meditators. We um we read books, jakesaw puzzles,
crossroad puzzles or margharita. That's my meditation, Laura, I'm so jealous.
I get terrible hangovers, which is the reason I've had
to quit drinking during COVID, because I cannot parent well hungover.
(33:14):
So I call them my beverage book ends. So I'm
morning latte. I'm addicted to my Starbucks and then my
evening glass of wine, and I like look forward to
both of those book ends. Yes, absolutely, I can't drink
coffee past about like eleven or twelve in the day.
I can have that first cup in the morning and
that's it. And but Amy, like I gotta say, I
think if you keep trying, you can really push through
(33:35):
this whole tolerance thing. And maybe I mean, I don't know,
Hope springs eternal. Final thoughts from Laura Wasser Well, Amy,
I wish it wasn't COVID because I think would be
really fun to have like a spicy Margherita with Laura Weser. Yes,
and I would like to follow her advice and just
(33:56):
really try to get my tolerance back up. I long
for a few cocktails with you and Laura and some
other women that I haven't seen in way too long.
Thank you all for listening to What's Her Story with
Sam and Amy. We have loved hearing Laura's story and
we hope you did too, And if you haven't caught
some of other episodes, we encourage you to listen to
(34:17):
some of the other women's stories that we've been able
to profile recently, Arianna Huffington's pod Master Warrior and Glennon
Abbey and many others. And we have many more to come.
Our episodes come out every Thursday, and we want to
thank our production team, Large Media, a woman owned team
that we love working with, as well as our podcast
(34:38):
associate Emma Hard and our male perspective Lou Burns. And
this podcast is powered by my company, park Place Payments,
which you can find at park Place Payments dot com
and Amy's company, The Riveter, which you can find at
the Riveter dot co
Hosts And Creators
Samantha Ettus
Amy Nelson
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.