January 27, 2022 • 33 mins
Minda Harts is the founder of The Memo, a career development company for women of color. She is the bestselling author of two books including her most recent, Right Within: How to Heal from Racial Trauma in the Workplace. In 2020 she was named LinkedIn’s top voice for equity in the workplace. Our conversation spans Minda’s career, workplace trauma and what needs to change.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Sam Edis and I'm Amy Nelson. Welcome to
What's Her Story? With Sam and Amy. This is a
show about the world's most remarkable women, their professional and
personal journeys. Together, we'll hear from Gold medalists, best selling authors,
and leaders of the world's most iconic brands. Listen every Thursday,
(00:23):
or join the conversation anytime on Instagram at What's Her
Story Podcast. Mental Hearts is the founder of The Memo,
a career development company for women of color. She's the
best selling author of two books and the host of
a weekly career podcast for women of color. In twos twenty,
she was named Lincoln's Top Voice for equity in the workplace.
(00:46):
At what point did you stop trying to work within
the system and start trying to change the system? Yeah,
that's a great question to Amy. You know, it's funny
because I didn't know I could work outside the system.
I thought that I had to continue to try to
be yere out how to work within it. And then
I realized that I had this epiphany that the system
was never created to for me to succeed, and I
(01:07):
could try, try, try as much as I want, but
this system is just not created for that, and so
I had to disrupt that system in order to get
what I needed to no longer just thrive, but to survive,
or sorry, not to survive in the workplace, but to thrive.
And so I just it took me about ten years
to figure out that this system was not gonna, was
not going anywhere, and that I was going to have
to do something differently. What was the specific incident that
(01:32):
really pushed you to leave your position and and make
this change. Yeah, well, I spent fifteen years in corporate America,
and I stayed at one one place for about ten years,
and that was the only thing I kind of knew.
But I realized that that wasn't the best right So
I thought, Okay, well, I know what it feels like
in this environment. Let me see if it's a different
(01:54):
environment that might feel differently, right, and maybe it's just
the people that I'm working with um. And then when
I went into this new environment at a new job,
I realized, oh, there's some of the same inequalities popping
up in this space as well, but it was a
little worse than what I had before. And that's when
I started to realize that this system is broken, and
I was again found myself in another environment where I
(02:17):
was the only black woman working. And when you're the
only of anything, you are going to experience inequalities if
you don't have people who are emotionally intelligent and who
have done their own internal work to see how we
make an environment work for everybody. And in that environment,
I started to experience depression, anxiety, UM, a lot of
(02:38):
just mental health issues. And that's when I realized that
no job is worth my sanity and that I'm going
to have to figure out how to um not just
help myself, but to help others who might also be
in the similar situations so that this doesn't become the
status quo forever. What is workplace trauma? It's interesting because
when I was going through these things amy, I didn't
(02:58):
even know I was in tra right. I had normalized
the experiences I was having as a woman, as a
woman of color, as a black woman, and so I
didn't even know that it was trauma. I just thought
this must just be what it is, and I started
to accept it. But I realized any environment where you
don't feel safe, it is going to cause trauma. Right,
(03:20):
So people who are not showing you dignity, respect in equity.
People who feel like they can dehumanize you at the
drop of the dime, right, then you are going to
experience trauma or you're gonna experience post traumatic stress disorder.
If you've been in an environment, whether it's work, relationship, friendship,
any type of relationship that's causing you to feel like
(03:41):
your dignity has been stripped away from you, that is traumatic.
So many people have to stay in their situation because
of financial reasons, right there, supporting themselves or their families.
How do you counsel a person who is in a
similar situation to the one you were in, who just
is in a financial situation they can't get out of. Yeah,
(04:04):
that's a great question, Sam, And most people, I think
most people are in those situations. Right. We're not in
a position to leave. And so I kind of joke
around about it in my book right within, saying, how
do you heal why you're in hell? Right? How do
you figure out how to work this out? Because even
in my situation, I was experiencing anxiety and depression, but
I couldn't leave. I didn't have enough finances. I was
(04:26):
a single woman, you know, like other people were relying
on me to help them, you know. So I had
all of these responsibilities and I just I felt like
I could not leave. And so I had to read
redefine what success looked like in my current situation, and
I said, how can I make this environment work for me?
So what can I do to what can I get
(04:47):
out of this situation to help me prepare for my
next best thing. I've made the decision that I can't
stay here forever. You know, I do deserve better. Uh,
sometimes we don't even We've been in such a bad
state that we don't even feel like we deserve a
better environment. And so I said, Okay, my company has
um professional development stipends. What certifications can I get? What
(05:07):
stretched assignments could I ask for? And so I started
to just say, let me turn this on its head
a bit and say, let me focus on what I
can get out of this, who is supporting me in
this environment, and just make make a bad situation a
little bit better for myself. So you worked for four
years while you were building your company the memo on
(05:27):
the side. Did you plot out of timeline? Did you
think it would take four years to fully make that transition?
You know. I didn't. I didn't know how long it
would take. But that was the little bit of space
that gave me some hope, right, because I was experiencing
such a bad workplace, that building the company allowed me
to dream a little bit bigger, to let me give
(05:48):
me a little reprieve from what was going on. And
so I was hopeful. Amy I was working feverishly hoping
that it wouldn't take four years. But it did take
that long. Um, But it was worth every every second
because now I can experience a different situation, and now
I can be a role model for somebody else to say,
your life doesn't have to end in trauma, right, You
(06:08):
don't have to spend your whole working career traumatized. Will
you share a little bit about the memo for those
of our listeners who aren't aware of it. Yes. So,
while I was going through very traumatic situation, I started
to think about my story and how I was suffering
in silence and wondering if others might be experiencing this,
and I started the Memo. Just started as a weekly
(06:29):
newsletter called Memo Mondays, and I would write about my
experiences every Monday. I had a mailing list. It probably
just started with my mom and my brothers as subscribers,
you know, and I thought, let me just continue to
do this UM. So every Monday, I would put out
a memo about a certain piece of the puzzle. So
maybe it's the wage gap, maybe it's about you know,
(06:50):
toxic co workers. And I just started writing about my experiences.
And the more I started writing about them, then I
started to find that other women of color were experiencing
similar situation. Since but we never knew how to articulate
it right. We didn't know if we were making these
things up. And so the newsletter turned into career boot camps.
The boot camps turned into podcasts, and then we just
(07:12):
created the suite of UM services to help women of
color in the workplace. And then all those memos that
had been writing for four or five years ended up
turning into the best selling book, the memo What Women
of Color Need to Notice Securaciat at the Table. Now
a lot of your clients are now corporate America ironically,
which is UM must feel at times like a conflict
(07:34):
for you. Right You're you're you're talking about the problems
that are inherent and probably not as quickly changing as
you would like, But at the same time, they're the
ones writing the checks. How do you manage that? I
manage it pretty good, Sam, because I look at it
from a different perspective. When I was in corporate America
on the other side of the table, I didn't have
(07:55):
the influence that I have now. Right So now I
sit on the side of the table where I can
be honest, where I can be the voice for people
who aren't able to use their voices right now. So
I actually get to influence corporate America in way better
ways and more impactful ways than I could when I
was in there on the other side of the table.
So now I'm like, Okay, I'm actually doing work that
(08:18):
actually makes it better for the current generation and the
future generation. And I'm talking with the stakeholders. I'm working
with C suite executives, which is something that I didn't
have the ear of them, you know, five years ago,
And so I now I realized that actually have even
more of an important responsibility to use my voice in
the way that I do so that I can influence
these rooms so that the table can be made more equitable.
(08:40):
When you work with corporate clients and you're working with
the teams that are hiring you, or the C suite
or management levels, and you're working with people who are
not women of color, do you recommend that they read
the memo and write within? Absolutely? I say that how
can you help solve for your employee is if you
don't know about their experiences? Right? Two things can be
(09:02):
true at the same time. We might work at the
same company, but we experienced that company very differently. So
how can you manage a diverse team if you don't
know what your diverse talent is experiencing? Right, So reading
the memo, reading right within will help you be a
more we use the word soft skills, but really to
be a more equitable leader, those are strong skills. Those
are leadership skills, right, And so how to have those
(09:24):
difficult conversations? And so I think any leader should be
reading about the experiences of others, not just themselves. Are
you optimistic do you feel like things have changed in
the last five to ten years? You know what? I
am very optimistic actually, because when my book The Memo
first came out, a lot of companies were like scared
to bring me in to talk about it. They're like,
(09:45):
this isn't going on here, we don't have this problem,
you know, and so they were very scared to talk
about race. And so, you know, fast forward in the
last two years, companies can't get enough of talking about it.
And now we can actually solve for racial inequality now
that you're acknowledging that it exists. Right, So there was
a time where we weren't talking about it out loud,
(10:05):
and now we are. And you can't solve for what
you're not willing to confront, right, And so it doesn't
mean we're all racist or sexist or homophobic, but it
means that if sexism is here, then racism probably exists
here too, then agism probably exists here too. So we
have to acknowledge that these things exist so that we
can create solutions. And now we're talking about those ways
(10:25):
to create those equitable solutions. So I'm very optimistic about
the future because we weren't talking about these things even
three years ago. And now a quick break, how did
you first build your audience? I know that your newsletters
started with your mom and your brothers, but but how
did you amass such a big audience? I think that's
one of the biggest challenges for entrepreneurs yeah, I sometimes
(10:48):
didn't think so, I mean, how did that happen? Because
it is kind of crazy, but it really was I
think vulnerability and transparency. I think I was really talking
about a certain thing that wasn't was a little taboo, right,
And so others started to say, wow, actually that's my
experience too, or I've seen that experienced it, or I'm
(11:09):
a manager and I do have people on my team
that are black and brown women, how do I show
up for them? And I think I was just talking
about things so vulnerably only because I was hurting at
the time, right, and I didn't know any other way
to talk about it but to tell the truth. And
I think that truth telling and authenticity is really what
helped build the audience today. While you were speaking authentically
(11:33):
and vulnerably and talking about a very hard situation, you
were still working in a hard situation and you were
doing something that's kind of public, Like did anybody work
with read the newsletter at the time? Were you afraid
of that? I was? I was. Um. I remember like
the year before I ended up leaving my job, we
had a staff retreat and one of my colleagues around
the table said, oh, you don't mean that she had
(11:56):
a picture with Michelle Obama, like last week, don't we
all want to you're more about that? And I literally
wanted to like slide under my table that sticking at
because I didn't necessarily want to talk about that right now.
And in that moment, I said, I owned it. I said, yeah,
I actually work on a business on the side where
I'm helping advance women of color in the workplace. And
(12:17):
I said it out loud. I owned it. And even
my manager, who was causing me a lot of trauma,
I said it with him there, you know. And I
think people at that time they were just like, oh, men,
to pat you on the back, that's really great, but
they didn't take it seriously. And and you know, now
the joke is kind of on them. But but but
I realized that I was a little nervous while building amy.
(12:38):
But I realized that who is going to be a
beneficiary of my courage. I'm a beneficiary of so many
women who have come before me, who've made tough choices,
who stood in their truth. And I want people to
be a beneficiary in my courage. So I'm willing to
take this chance to build and still keep my job
and go from there. And so I just continued. But
I realized that, um, the benefit outweighed the risk. Where
(13:00):
did that courage come from? I mean your childhood. You
grew up in the suburbs of Chicago. Your family was
earning twenty five dollars a year at one point. What
was your childhood like? It was a struggle, you know,
it definitely was a struggle. But one thing that we
had was a lot of love, you know. And when
I was in these certain environments, I realized that, I
(13:21):
know it might sound kind of like pie in the sky,
but love right, healing that respect that was lacking in
all of these different environments, And um, I realized that
I deserved I brought so many tools to the workplace
that I just wasn't being valued. And my parents always
put in me and my brothers the value of self right,
(13:42):
and so I had kind of forgotten it along the
way because I thought that I had to endure that
because I thought that's what corporate America was going to
be like for me. But what I realized was I
I deserved better. I deserved to experience the workplace like
my colleagues were experiencing it. And I just remember those
things that my parents always taught us about ourselves and
(14:03):
our self worth, and so I had to tap back
into that. But we grew up very poor. I was
the first person in my family to graduate from college,
and and I just realized that I had come so
far that I could not lean out and let this
dictate the rest of my life. And so I just
had to kind of, like Beyonce says, turn what is
it your lemons into lemonade? Because I just knew that
it was bigger than me. What did your parents do?
(14:25):
My father a majority of my career or I'm sorry,
my growing up he was like in janitorial work, and
my mom she would work in like group homes and
things like that, and so they had very you know,
I guess, working class professions. Um. And you know, we
grew up on public assistance, and so, you know, I
saw all these different things around me. But again, the
(14:47):
one thing that I knew was my was my value.
Even if we were, you know, to some poor, we
still valued ourselves and our parents and still that in
in each of me and my brothers, and so UM,
I just started to read my for that again. When
I was in the pits of the workplace to say,
you know what, I still should be valued. Um, I'm
a great employee. And so if it's if I'm not
(15:08):
gonna get it here, then I need to find a
place where I am. How did you decide to go
to college? It's almost like taboo to say it now, Amy,
But it was the Cosby Show really, because um, that
was the first time I had saw a professional black
family that was thriving, right, And so I'm like, oh,
what is the main ingredient on college? That's exactly what
I'm going to here. And that's the and I kept that,
(15:29):
you know, in my tool kid, And that was the
thing I had no other, um experience other than seeing
them and and um, and I'm thankful that I did
see it, because that's the thing that I held onto
and and I'm fortunate to have had the insight as
a young girl watching it on television to say, you know,
I think college is the way that will get me
out of this situation. Did your brothers fellow that same path?
(15:52):
They did? And I thought about them too. I wanted
them to be able to see it, uh, and be
able to see it in real time. And so they
also too went and got their degrees and and so
it's a really beautiful thing. I want to talk a
little bit about microaggressions in the workplace. What is a
microaggression a micro aggression? It's easier for me to say
(16:13):
it this way. So when I was one um story
that I often tell is about a manager, one of
my first managers, who I had burnt orange fingernil polish
on and he said, people love your bright colors. And
he joked around for fifteen minutes about black people liking
bright colors. And that is to some it could be
a micro or a macro aggression. But again, any time
(16:33):
where someone is trying to strip you of your dignity,
and I know that some people will say, well, you know,
so and so didn't mean any harm. Well, they might
not have meant any harm, But what is the impact
of what they've said on the person that they said
it too? Right? And I think that that's partially what
we have to think about. What are the language that
we're using, how are we engaging with people? And if
it's stripping them of their dignity or making them feel
(16:55):
less than or fearful in their environment, then that is
traumatic and that is a grow or macro aggression, or
what I hope will happen is we'll start to normalize
and just say call it what it is. Right, it's sexism,
it's racism. Like I think we wrap these things in
pretty bows because it makes it more palpable for people
to digest. But at the end of the day, they
(17:15):
are homophobia, they are agism that you know, these are
the things that they are. In your new role as
an entrepreneur, do you still experience microaggressions? Oh yeah, you know, Like, um,
they still happen, but now I can decide if I
want to address it, if I want to keep working
with a client, or if I don't want to work
(17:36):
with a client anymore. And it feels good to be
able to make those decisions and those choices, but ultimately
to also address them. The same fear that I had
in corporate America where some days, most days, I would
never address it because I was fearful of losing my job. Um,
now I can have adult conversation with tools to say,
you know what. I know you might not have meant this,
(17:57):
but let's have a conversation about that. And it's a
learning opportunity, right, And what I hope is if I
step up with courage and call it out, that that
person on the receiving end will be courageous as well,
and we can figure out how to make this work.
I've had tons of I remember not too long ago
a client called me a colored person, and I was like,
(18:19):
I wanted to be like, oh my god, I don't
want to do this anymore. But I sat with it
for a second. I said, you know, I just want
to make you aware that you know, we're not using
that type of language anymore in one and so, um,
this is what I would hope you would use and
address me or others. And they were very apologetic, right,
and it was a lesson learned. They took it, and
(18:40):
we moved on and I continued working with them. They
never called me a colored person again. I hope they
never used that with somebody else, right. But I think
sometimes people don't know and we have to give them
space and grace to have those conversations. Does it frustrate
you that more people don't speak up and don't use
their voice. You know, it's not frustrating because I know
it takes right out. It's risky sometimes to speak up right. Um,
(19:03):
there is a risk, but I hope that we normalize
people having authentic conversations that there isn't a risk related
to that because what we know to be true in
the workplaces, some people can't speak their truth and they
don't have to worry about losing their jobs. You know,
there are plenty of people who if they're having a disagreement,
they say it and they move on without their day.
But then there's other marginalized groups that never get to
(19:25):
speak their truth. And so oftentimes when I'm talking with leaders,
they'll say, well, why didn't you know a certain woman
say that this was a problem. She didn't feel safe
enough to tell you that right or she might have
been trying to tell you, but you were missing on
some of those some of those cues. And so what
I'm hopeful is that you know each of us, if
we all do our work and we learn and grow
(19:45):
and listen, that we can't have these conversations. And it
doesn't mean that we're bad people. It just means that
we want to make the workplace better. How can companies
create spaces, rooms, real places where people can have those
authentic conversations and not be afraid of being fired because
I mean, because you can't do it otherwise, No, you can't.
And I think that you know, the buzzword is psychological safety,
(20:09):
But what we don't often talk about is psychological safety
doesn't just happen because we clap our hands and stop
our feet, right, it has to be intentional. We have
to create space where people feel safe. In any environment
where people don't feel safe, there's going to be trauma there, right,
um and its patterns of abuse. And I think that UM,
(20:29):
in order for us to do that, we have to,
in my opinion, really hone in on our trainings in
our coaching. Do our managers and leaders have the tools
and competencies to have handle conflict resolution, to hander courageous conversations?
And I think oftentimes we promote people with not the
right competencies to even manage in the first place. So
if you're if you've never had any managerial experience, you're
(20:51):
not going to be able to have these conversations, right.
So I think we really need executive coaching. We need,
you know, middle managers to be equipped with conflict resol
usian tools because none of this is going to happen
if people don't understand how to communicate effectively if I
could go back and start the riveter over again. So
I never had any management experience, and I didn't have
executive coaching at the beginning, and so any kind of
(21:13):
difficult conversation with something I've never really been trained to
do in the workplace, yea, and most of us aren't, right.
I think about early in my management career, I'm sure
I made some people's lives a living hell, right, not intentionally,
but because you know, I was a star performer here,
and of course I could manage twenty people that I've
never managed. And then I realized that, oh, you know what,
(21:33):
I need to read some books, I need to get
my own training and um, and I started to do
that because a manager really has an opportunity to really
grow a person, right, And the experiences that people have
with their managers go on to dictate how they show up,
if they show their us an authentic self, if they
speak up or not. And so if we all say,
you know, what, could I be a better manager? What
(21:55):
would it take? Right? What would better look like? And
I think sometimes we're so it's so about our self,
and to your point, Amy, we take it as an
offense to us, and it's like, no, how do we
make it better for everybody? Don't we all want it better? Right?
And I think that that's the piece of the puzzle
that's missing when we talk about any type of equity
in the workplace. Well, also, how do we learn to
(22:15):
be a great manager? Right? Like I most of my
management skills when I started my first company. We're from
this amazing boss I had named Lucy Woltman, who I'm
still close with today. But I was, you know, twenty
two and I worked for her and she was just
an exceptional manager. And I feel like, you know, having
a great manager is really the best thing, right, Like
(22:36):
the coaching is secondary, but if you have some great
managers as role models, that's kind of the most extraordinary
way to learn how to manage. But again to your appointment,
I think, you know, there's you constantly need to be
sort of upgrading your management style because what worked twenty
years ago is not necessarily going to work today. Yeah,
you think about it, many of us have had kind
(22:57):
of the Michael Scott manager right from the office, right,
So we don't know, we know that that's not who
we want to be, but that's who gets promoted so
you don't always know or you have you know, kind
of the person who just oh that's just Tom being
Tom and someone who never addresses conflict. Right, And so
we see all of these different models and we take
(23:17):
a little bit of them with us into it to
our roles and so and also some people who were managing,
you know, fifty years ago, they're still holding on to
some of those tools that worked, you know, fifty years ago.
And that's not that's not the workplace we work in anymore.
And now a quick break. You talk a lot about
(23:38):
the workplace and how we can how we can build
it and rechange it and reframe it. But what about
your personal life? Who are your friends? Who do you
hang out with? Yeah? You know, Um, I'm glad you
brought that up because I think while I was, you know,
healing in hell and while he's building the memo, I
really lost sense of self in those times that I
didn't really nurture the relations chips that that I had
(24:01):
in the ways that I wanted to. Or when you
would go out with your friends, you were going to events, right,
and so you don't really get to have that. And
I would honestly say it wasn't until probably the last
ten months where I said, you know what, minda you.
You are a fun person, but you're not being fun anymore.
You do like to do these things, you have a
(24:22):
sense of humor, but no one's over seeing that anymore.
And I really had to take a step back and say,
let me go hang out my friends who aren't entrepreneurs.
Let me go back and rebuild the you know, nurture
of these relationships. Because I do have a life. I
want a more balanced type of life, meaning that I
don't want everything to just be work related. I want
to also have fun and enjoy my life as well.
(24:42):
And so it's just in the last several months that
I've actually went back to saying, let me have dinners
with friends, you know, let me do these things. And
it's been I feel like I'm ten years younger because
I'm actually tapping into this part of myself that I've
neglected for such a long time. One of the things
I'm wondering is, I think it's so hard sometimes as
strong women to find good partners that are not intimidated
(25:07):
by your success or your strength. How have you found
that in your own romantic life? It's a hard thing
because I'm actually transitioned out of something that I was
in for a very long time. And I think that
the work I can't get in the way sometimes of that.
And if you don't have UM partners or people who
are invested in in you the same way that you're
(25:30):
invested in them, or that understand that this makes this
is a portion of my life, but it's not going
to be this way forever, right, UM, And to support
you and and just root you on that that means
so much, right And so I think UM, for me,
I realized more than ever. We talk about love languages,
and when I really get down to the root of it,
you know, as a partner, I need someone who gives
(25:51):
me words of affirmation. I need you know, that support
in certain ways, and when you're not getting that, you
have to make some difficult choices. Just like I've had
to make them in the workplace, I've had to make
them in relationship too. And but I think when we
start to cultivate other parts of our life, than what's
for us won't miss us. Right. So right now I
am enjoying a single life style with my fur baby Boston.
(26:14):
But I know now that I'm cultivating other areas of
my life. So what's for me won't miss me. And
so I'm just enjoying all of it now. And um,
as I was telling a friend the other day, we're
in a very unique situation. We don't have children, you know,
We you know, are driving in our work, like we
get to really ride this thing out and enjoy life
in a way that we might not have been able
to do it five years ago. And so I feel
(26:36):
a new sense of excitement and and I'm open to
dating prospects, you know, um uh, and and just enjoying
that part of my life again. We are going to
go to our speed round now. So we're just going
to ask you a few questions and you can give
us just quick answers. What are you watching right now?
(26:57):
I'm actually watching Abbott Elementary on ABC. It's actually funny.
It's kind of like the office, but in a school
system setting, that kind of What is your nighttime routine? Well,
now that I'm getting older, Amy, my nighttime routine is
really taking care of my skin. So I have like
all these space regiments that I'm doing and I'm actually
(27:20):
enjoying um them. But um, I recently went to a
like kind of this retreat at Maravelle in Arizona, and
I bought all these different like instance, and just really
lavenders and just making sure that I'm calm before I
go to bed, um, so that I'm not ruminating over
like stuff that hasn't even happened yet. And so for me,
my nighttime I is really sacred. I put my phone
(27:42):
on silence. I just really I read, I just reflect,
and nighttime is really special for me. Before bit, if
you could wave a magic wand and have one thing
happened in your career, what would it be? I want
to be a film producer. Um, so I want to
take my books to television. Where are you going on vacation?
When the pen that make us over anywhere? I'll take anything,
(28:06):
But I would like to go to Costa Rica. That
that would be guys who leaves You starstruck? So Luke
Burns has been listening to this entire conversation and he
is going to ask our final question. I wanted to
know more about your childhood and like your high school
(28:27):
life and your college life. You seem like a very
interesting person, you know, especially the topics that you talk about.
But um, I actually want to know what you're good
at besides the stuff that everybody knew, like writing books
and being an entrepreneur and talking about topics that are taboo.
What are you good at that you're not actually pursuing.
(28:48):
I really like to cook. Blue A lot of people
who don't know me outside of like in real life,
I do like to cook. I am like a very
domesticated person. A lot of people probably wouldn't get that
about me, but I love to invite people over. I
love to cook. I like to entertain, so that's something
that I don't do as often, but I really enjoy cooking.
Like I'm one of those people that nerd out on
(29:09):
Food Network and then try to like recreate that meal
inside my house, you know. So I really do love food,
and I think that comes from my dad. He was
the cook in our house and so he was always
cooking and um so I definitely love that too, even
in college. Even in college, I'd be in my dorm
room with a George Foreman grill and pot plate that
(29:30):
I shouldn't have had, and people would come in and
get food and all kinds. And I love lose second question,
which was you know, what were you like in high school,
I was a little like I had a lot of friends,
but I'd always say that I was friends to a
lot of people, but not a lot of people knew me. Right,
So I'm one of those people that you might think
(29:50):
you know a lot about me, but you don't really
know me till you've actually had so I have that
ability to make you feel like you know everything about me,
but you really know nothing about me. So ways, and
and I feel like that probably went through a whole
lot of my career. But now I'm realizing that it's
okay to let some people get to know you and
and in the different pieces of you, um and so.
(30:11):
But I always kept a lot of friends around, but
um and so, I was very social person, um but quiet,
If that makes sense. Where do you think that desire
for privacy comes from? Are we are we turning this
into a therapy session? You know? I think that desire
(30:32):
for privacy probably comes from growing up I think a
little bit poor, you know, being I was often around
a lot of people with influence, but our affluence and
but I was, you know, um, low income, And I
think I always wanted to present that I could still
I still belonged here too, right, And I think this
privacy for not letting people completely know what's behind the scenes.
(30:55):
Um I had one manager that I always would say, Uh,
let people see you our swan on top, even if
it's an ugly duck underneath, right, and so always presenting
in that way and so showing showing up in that way.
And so I think that that's part of that privacy,
not thinking that people would judge me if they really
knew what was underneath the hood. Um. So I think
(31:15):
that's part of it. And so I'm unpacking some of
those pieces of myself um on in on the internet
and in my books and things. Amy I found that
so interesting. The end piece where she kind of addresses
how private she is, I thought it was really interesting
(31:36):
too and kind of hard to get to write. I mean,
I think being private, but discussion about privacy to be
hard to get to. And one of the things that
was really interesting to me, and talking about Mende's family
and her her childhood, is like her parents must be
the most remarkable people. I mean, they raised three first
generation college graduates and it's just I mean that shows
(31:58):
a lot of love, respect, care, just a lot. It
is remarkable and I wanted so badly to hear even
more about her childhood because I bet she has fabulous
stories about them and how her family worked and operated.
And I want to know this secret to, you know,
turning out three children who are all so successful and
seemingly are all close today and you know, are all
(32:22):
thriving in this world. Yeah, I mean, Menda certainly is thriving,
and she's built a really powerful platform. Um and I
feel lucky that we got to talk with her. Thanks
for listening to What's Her Story with Sam and Amy.
We would appreciate it if you leave her review wherever
you get your podcasts, and of course, connect with us
on social media at What's Her Story podcast. What's Her
(32:44):
Story with Sam and Amy is powered by my company,
The Riveter at the Riveter dot Co and Sam's company,
park Place Payments at park place Payments dot com. Thanks
to our producer Stacy Para and our male perspective Blue
Burns
Hi, I'm Sam Edis and I'm Amy Nelson. Welcome to
What's Her Story? With Sam and Amy. This is a
show about the world's most remarkable women, their professional and
personal journeys. Together, we'll hear from Gold medalists, best selling authors,
and leaders of the world's most iconic brands. Listen every Thursday,
(00:23):
or join the conversation anytime on Instagram at What's Her
Story Podcast. Mental Hearts is the founder of The Memo,
a career development company for women of color. She's the
best selling author of two books and the host of
a weekly career podcast for women of color. In twos twenty,
she was named Lincoln's Top Voice for equity in the workplace.
(00:46):
At what point did you stop trying to work within
the system and start trying to change the system? Yeah,
that's a great question to Amy. You know, it's funny
because I didn't know I could work outside the system.
I thought that I had to continue to try to
be yere out how to work within it. And then
I realized that I had this epiphany that the system
was never created to for me to succeed, and I
(01:07):
could try, try, try as much as I want, but
this system is just not created for that, and so
I had to disrupt that system in order to get
what I needed to no longer just thrive, but to survive,
or sorry, not to survive in the workplace, but to thrive.
And so I just it took me about ten years
to figure out that this system was not gonna, was
not going anywhere, and that I was going to have
to do something differently. What was the specific incident that
(01:32):
really pushed you to leave your position and and make
this change. Yeah, well, I spent fifteen years in corporate America,
and I stayed at one one place for about ten years,
and that was the only thing I kind of knew.
But I realized that that wasn't the best right So
I thought, Okay, well, I know what it feels like
in this environment. Let me see if it's a different
(01:54):
environment that might feel differently, right, and maybe it's just
the people that I'm working with um. And then when
I went into this new environment at a new job,
I realized, oh, there's some of the same inequalities popping
up in this space as well, but it was a
little worse than what I had before. And that's when
I started to realize that this system is broken, and
I was again found myself in another environment where I
(02:17):
was the only black woman working. And when you're the
only of anything, you are going to experience inequalities if
you don't have people who are emotionally intelligent and who
have done their own internal work to see how we
make an environment work for everybody. And in that environment,
I started to experience depression, anxiety, UM, a lot of
(02:38):
just mental health issues. And that's when I realized that
no job is worth my sanity and that I'm going
to have to figure out how to um not just
help myself, but to help others who might also be
in the similar situations so that this doesn't become the
status quo forever. What is workplace trauma? It's interesting because
when I was going through these things amy, I didn't
(02:58):
even know I was in tra right. I had normalized
the experiences I was having as a woman, as a
woman of color, as a black woman, and so I
didn't even know that it was trauma. I just thought
this must just be what it is, and I started
to accept it. But I realized any environment where you
don't feel safe, it is going to cause trauma. Right,
(03:20):
So people who are not showing you dignity, respect in equity.
People who feel like they can dehumanize you at the
drop of the dime, right, then you are going to
experience trauma or you're gonna experience post traumatic stress disorder.
If you've been in an environment, whether it's work, relationship, friendship,
any type of relationship that's causing you to feel like
(03:41):
your dignity has been stripped away from you, that is traumatic.
So many people have to stay in their situation because
of financial reasons, right there, supporting themselves or their families.
How do you counsel a person who is in a
similar situation to the one you were in, who just
is in a financial situation they can't get out of. Yeah,
(04:04):
that's a great question, Sam, And most people, I think
most people are in those situations. Right. We're not in
a position to leave. And so I kind of joke
around about it in my book right within, saying, how
do you heal why you're in hell? Right? How do
you figure out how to work this out? Because even
in my situation, I was experiencing anxiety and depression, but
I couldn't leave. I didn't have enough finances. I was
(04:26):
a single woman, you know, like other people were relying
on me to help them, you know. So I had
all of these responsibilities and I just I felt like
I could not leave. And so I had to read
redefine what success looked like in my current situation, and
I said, how can I make this environment work for me?
So what can I do to what can I get
(04:47):
out of this situation to help me prepare for my
next best thing. I've made the decision that I can't
stay here forever. You know, I do deserve better. Uh,
sometimes we don't even We've been in such a bad
state that we don't even feel like we deserve a
better environment. And so I said, Okay, my company has
um professional development stipends. What certifications can I get? What
(05:07):
stretched assignments could I ask for? And so I started
to just say, let me turn this on its head
a bit and say, let me focus on what I
can get out of this, who is supporting me in
this environment, and just make make a bad situation a
little bit better for myself. So you worked for four
years while you were building your company the memo on
(05:27):
the side. Did you plot out of timeline? Did you
think it would take four years to fully make that transition?
You know. I didn't. I didn't know how long it
would take. But that was the little bit of space
that gave me some hope, right, because I was experiencing
such a bad workplace, that building the company allowed me
to dream a little bit bigger, to let me give
(05:48):
me a little reprieve from what was going on. And
so I was hopeful. Amy I was working feverishly hoping
that it wouldn't take four years. But it did take
that long. Um, But it was worth every every second
because now I can experience a different situation, and now
I can be a role model for somebody else to say,
your life doesn't have to end in trauma, right, You
(06:08):
don't have to spend your whole working career traumatized. Will
you share a little bit about the memo for those
of our listeners who aren't aware of it. Yes. So,
while I was going through very traumatic situation, I started
to think about my story and how I was suffering
in silence and wondering if others might be experiencing this,
and I started the Memo. Just started as a weekly
(06:29):
newsletter called Memo Mondays, and I would write about my
experiences every Monday. I had a mailing list. It probably
just started with my mom and my brothers as subscribers,
you know, and I thought, let me just continue to
do this UM. So every Monday, I would put out
a memo about a certain piece of the puzzle. So
maybe it's the wage gap, maybe it's about you know,
(06:50):
toxic co workers. And I just started writing about my experiences.
And the more I started writing about them, then I
started to find that other women of color were experiencing
similar situation. Since but we never knew how to articulate
it right. We didn't know if we were making these
things up. And so the newsletter turned into career boot camps.
The boot camps turned into podcasts, and then we just
(07:12):
created the suite of UM services to help women of
color in the workplace. And then all those memos that
had been writing for four or five years ended up
turning into the best selling book, the memo What Women
of Color Need to Notice Securaciat at the Table. Now
a lot of your clients are now corporate America ironically,
which is UM must feel at times like a conflict
(07:34):
for you. Right You're you're you're talking about the problems
that are inherent and probably not as quickly changing as
you would like, But at the same time, they're the
ones writing the checks. How do you manage that? I
manage it pretty good, Sam, because I look at it
from a different perspective. When I was in corporate America
on the other side of the table, I didn't have
(07:55):
the influence that I have now. Right So now I
sit on the side of the table where I can
be honest, where I can be the voice for people
who aren't able to use their voices right now. So
I actually get to influence corporate America in way better
ways and more impactful ways than I could when I
was in there on the other side of the table.
So now I'm like, Okay, I'm actually doing work that
(08:18):
actually makes it better for the current generation and the
future generation. And I'm talking with the stakeholders. I'm working
with C suite executives, which is something that I didn't
have the ear of them, you know, five years ago,
And so I now I realized that actually have even
more of an important responsibility to use my voice in
the way that I do so that I can influence
these rooms so that the table can be made more equitable.
(08:40):
When you work with corporate clients and you're working with
the teams that are hiring you, or the C suite
or management levels, and you're working with people who are
not women of color, do you recommend that they read
the memo and write within? Absolutely? I say that how
can you help solve for your employee is if you
don't know about their experiences? Right? Two things can be
(09:02):
true at the same time. We might work at the
same company, but we experienced that company very differently. So
how can you manage a diverse team if you don't
know what your diverse talent is experiencing? Right, So reading
the memo, reading right within will help you be a
more we use the word soft skills, but really to
be a more equitable leader, those are strong skills. Those
are leadership skills, right, And so how to have those
(09:24):
difficult conversations? And so I think any leader should be
reading about the experiences of others, not just themselves. Are
you optimistic do you feel like things have changed in
the last five to ten years? You know what? I
am very optimistic actually, because when my book The Memo
first came out, a lot of companies were like scared
to bring me in to talk about it. They're like,
(09:45):
this isn't going on here, we don't have this problem,
you know, and so they were very scared to talk
about race. And so, you know, fast forward in the
last two years, companies can't get enough of talking about it.
And now we can actually solve for racial inequality now
that you're acknowledging that it exists. Right, So there was
a time where we weren't talking about it out loud,
(10:05):
and now we are. And you can't solve for what
you're not willing to confront, right, And so it doesn't
mean we're all racist or sexist or homophobic, but it
means that if sexism is here, then racism probably exists
here too, then agism probably exists here too. So we
have to acknowledge that these things exist so that we
can create solutions. And now we're talking about those ways
(10:25):
to create those equitable solutions. So I'm very optimistic about
the future because we weren't talking about these things even
three years ago. And now a quick break, how did
you first build your audience? I know that your newsletters
started with your mom and your brothers, but but how
did you amass such a big audience? I think that's
one of the biggest challenges for entrepreneurs yeah, I sometimes
(10:48):
didn't think so, I mean, how did that happen? Because
it is kind of crazy, but it really was I
think vulnerability and transparency. I think I was really talking
about a certain thing that wasn't was a little taboo, right,
And so others started to say, wow, actually that's my
experience too, or I've seen that experienced it, or I'm
(11:09):
a manager and I do have people on my team
that are black and brown women, how do I show
up for them? And I think I was just talking
about things so vulnerably only because I was hurting at
the time, right, and I didn't know any other way
to talk about it but to tell the truth. And
I think that truth telling and authenticity is really what
helped build the audience today. While you were speaking authentically
(11:33):
and vulnerably and talking about a very hard situation, you
were still working in a hard situation and you were
doing something that's kind of public, Like did anybody work
with read the newsletter at the time? Were you afraid
of that? I was? I was. Um. I remember like
the year before I ended up leaving my job, we
had a staff retreat and one of my colleagues around
the table said, oh, you don't mean that she had
(11:56):
a picture with Michelle Obama, like last week, don't we
all want to you're more about that? And I literally
wanted to like slide under my table that sticking at
because I didn't necessarily want to talk about that right now.
And in that moment, I said, I owned it. I said, yeah,
I actually work on a business on the side where
I'm helping advance women of color in the workplace. And
(12:17):
I said it out loud. I owned it. And even
my manager, who was causing me a lot of trauma,
I said it with him there, you know. And I
think people at that time they were just like, oh, men,
to pat you on the back, that's really great, but
they didn't take it seriously. And and you know, now
the joke is kind of on them. But but but
I realized that I was a little nervous while building amy.
(12:38):
But I realized that who is going to be a
beneficiary of my courage. I'm a beneficiary of so many
women who have come before me, who've made tough choices,
who stood in their truth. And I want people to
be a beneficiary in my courage. So I'm willing to
take this chance to build and still keep my job
and go from there. And so I just continued. But
I realized that, um, the benefit outweighed the risk. Where
(13:00):
did that courage come from? I mean your childhood. You
grew up in the suburbs of Chicago. Your family was
earning twenty five dollars a year at one point. What
was your childhood like? It was a struggle, you know,
it definitely was a struggle. But one thing that we
had was a lot of love, you know. And when
I was in these certain environments, I realized that, I
(13:21):
know it might sound kind of like pie in the sky,
but love right, healing that respect that was lacking in
all of these different environments, And um, I realized that
I deserved I brought so many tools to the workplace
that I just wasn't being valued. And my parents always
put in me and my brothers the value of self right,
(13:42):
and so I had kind of forgotten it along the
way because I thought that I had to endure that
because I thought that's what corporate America was going to
be like for me. But what I realized was I
I deserved better. I deserved to experience the workplace like
my colleagues were experiencing it. And I just remember those
things that my parents always taught us about ourselves and
(14:03):
our self worth, and so I had to tap back
into that. But we grew up very poor. I was
the first person in my family to graduate from college,
and and I just realized that I had come so
far that I could not lean out and let this
dictate the rest of my life. And so I just
had to kind of, like Beyonce says, turn what is
it your lemons into lemonade? Because I just knew that
it was bigger than me. What did your parents do?
(14:25):
My father a majority of my career or I'm sorry,
my growing up he was like in janitorial work, and
my mom she would work in like group homes and
things like that, and so they had very you know,
I guess, working class professions. Um. And you know, we
grew up on public assistance, and so, you know, I
saw all these different things around me. But again, the
(14:47):
one thing that I knew was my was my value.
Even if we were, you know, to some poor, we
still valued ourselves and our parents and still that in
in each of me and my brothers, and so UM,
I just started to read my for that again. When
I was in the pits of the workplace to say,
you know what, I still should be valued. Um, I'm
a great employee. And so if it's if I'm not
(15:08):
gonna get it here, then I need to find a
place where I am. How did you decide to go
to college? It's almost like taboo to say it now, Amy,
But it was the Cosby Show really, because um, that
was the first time I had saw a professional black
family that was thriving, right, And so I'm like, oh,
what is the main ingredient on college? That's exactly what
I'm going to here. And that's the and I kept that,
(15:29):
you know, in my tool kid, And that was the
thing I had no other, um experience other than seeing
them and and um, and I'm thankful that I did
see it, because that's the thing that I held onto
and and I'm fortunate to have had the insight as
a young girl watching it on television to say, you know,
I think college is the way that will get me
out of this situation. Did your brothers fellow that same path?
(15:52):
They did? And I thought about them too. I wanted
them to be able to see it, uh, and be
able to see it in real time. And so they
also too went and got their degrees and and so
it's a really beautiful thing. I want to talk a
little bit about microaggressions in the workplace. What is a
microaggression a micro aggression? It's easier for me to say
(16:13):
it this way. So when I was one um story
that I often tell is about a manager, one of
my first managers, who I had burnt orange fingernil polish
on and he said, people love your bright colors. And
he joked around for fifteen minutes about black people liking
bright colors. And that is to some it could be
a micro or a macro aggression. But again, any time
(16:33):
where someone is trying to strip you of your dignity,
and I know that some people will say, well, you know,
so and so didn't mean any harm. Well, they might
not have meant any harm, But what is the impact
of what they've said on the person that they said
it too? Right? And I think that that's partially what
we have to think about. What are the language that
we're using, how are we engaging with people? And if
it's stripping them of their dignity or making them feel
(16:55):
less than or fearful in their environment, then that is
traumatic and that is a grow or macro aggression, or
what I hope will happen is we'll start to normalize
and just say call it what it is. Right, it's sexism,
it's racism. Like I think we wrap these things in
pretty bows because it makes it more palpable for people
to digest. But at the end of the day, they
(17:15):
are homophobia, they are agism that you know, these are
the things that they are. In your new role as
an entrepreneur, do you still experience microaggressions? Oh yeah, you know, Like, um,
they still happen, but now I can decide if I
want to address it, if I want to keep working
with a client, or if I don't want to work
(17:36):
with a client anymore. And it feels good to be
able to make those decisions and those choices, but ultimately
to also address them. The same fear that I had
in corporate America where some days, most days, I would
never address it because I was fearful of losing my job. Um,
now I can have adult conversation with tools to say,
you know what. I know you might not have meant this,
(17:57):
but let's have a conversation about that. And it's a
learning opportunity, right, And what I hope is if I
step up with courage and call it out, that that
person on the receiving end will be courageous as well,
and we can figure out how to make this work.
I've had tons of I remember not too long ago
a client called me a colored person, and I was like,
(18:19):
I wanted to be like, oh my god, I don't
want to do this anymore. But I sat with it
for a second. I said, you know, I just want
to make you aware that you know, we're not using
that type of language anymore in one and so, um,
this is what I would hope you would use and
address me or others. And they were very apologetic, right,
and it was a lesson learned. They took it, and
(18:40):
we moved on and I continued working with them. They
never called me a colored person again. I hope they
never used that with somebody else, right. But I think
sometimes people don't know and we have to give them
space and grace to have those conversations. Does it frustrate
you that more people don't speak up and don't use
their voice. You know, it's not frustrating because I know
it takes right out. It's risky sometimes to speak up right. Um,
(19:03):
there is a risk, but I hope that we normalize
people having authentic conversations that there isn't a risk related
to that because what we know to be true in
the workplaces, some people can't speak their truth and they
don't have to worry about losing their jobs. You know,
there are plenty of people who if they're having a disagreement,
they say it and they move on without their day.
But then there's other marginalized groups that never get to
(19:25):
speak their truth. And so oftentimes when I'm talking with leaders,
they'll say, well, why didn't you know a certain woman
say that this was a problem. She didn't feel safe
enough to tell you that right or she might have
been trying to tell you, but you were missing on
some of those some of those cues. And so what
I'm hopeful is that you know each of us, if
we all do our work and we learn and grow
(19:45):
and listen, that we can't have these conversations. And it
doesn't mean that we're bad people. It just means that
we want to make the workplace better. How can companies
create spaces, rooms, real places where people can have those
authentic conversations and not be afraid of being fired because
I mean, because you can't do it otherwise, No, you can't.
And I think that you know, the buzzword is psychological safety,
(20:09):
But what we don't often talk about is psychological safety
doesn't just happen because we clap our hands and stop
our feet, right, it has to be intentional. We have
to create space where people feel safe. In any environment
where people don't feel safe, there's going to be trauma there, right,
um and its patterns of abuse. And I think that UM,
(20:29):
in order for us to do that, we have to,
in my opinion, really hone in on our trainings in
our coaching. Do our managers and leaders have the tools
and competencies to have handle conflict resolution, to hander courageous conversations?
And I think oftentimes we promote people with not the
right competencies to even manage in the first place. So
if you're if you've never had any managerial experience, you're
(20:51):
not going to be able to have these conversations, right.
So I think we really need executive coaching. We need,
you know, middle managers to be equipped with conflict resol
usian tools because none of this is going to happen
if people don't understand how to communicate effectively if I
could go back and start the riveter over again. So
I never had any management experience, and I didn't have
executive coaching at the beginning, and so any kind of
(21:13):
difficult conversation with something I've never really been trained to
do in the workplace, yea, and most of us aren't, right.
I think about early in my management career, I'm sure
I made some people's lives a living hell, right, not intentionally,
but because you know, I was a star performer here,
and of course I could manage twenty people that I've
never managed. And then I realized that, oh, you know what,
(21:33):
I need to read some books, I need to get
my own training and um, and I started to do
that because a manager really has an opportunity to really
grow a person, right, And the experiences that people have
with their managers go on to dictate how they show up,
if they show their us an authentic self, if they
speak up or not. And so if we all say,
you know, what, could I be a better manager? What
(21:55):
would it take? Right? What would better look like? And
I think sometimes we're so it's so about our self,
and to your point, Amy, we take it as an
offense to us, and it's like, no, how do we
make it better for everybody? Don't we all want it better? Right?
And I think that that's the piece of the puzzle
that's missing when we talk about any type of equity
in the workplace. Well, also, how do we learn to
(22:15):
be a great manager? Right? Like I most of my
management skills when I started my first company. We're from
this amazing boss I had named Lucy Woltman, who I'm
still close with today. But I was, you know, twenty
two and I worked for her and she was just
an exceptional manager. And I feel like, you know, having
a great manager is really the best thing, right, Like
(22:36):
the coaching is secondary, but if you have some great
managers as role models, that's kind of the most extraordinary
way to learn how to manage. But again to your appointment,
I think, you know, there's you constantly need to be
sort of upgrading your management style because what worked twenty
years ago is not necessarily going to work today. Yeah,
you think about it, many of us have had kind
(22:57):
of the Michael Scott manager right from the office, right,
So we don't know, we know that that's not who
we want to be, but that's who gets promoted so
you don't always know or you have you know, kind
of the person who just oh that's just Tom being
Tom and someone who never addresses conflict. Right, And so
we see all of these different models and we take
(23:17):
a little bit of them with us into it to
our roles and so and also some people who were managing,
you know, fifty years ago, they're still holding on to
some of those tools that worked, you know, fifty years ago.
And that's not that's not the workplace we work in anymore.
And now a quick break. You talk a lot about
(23:38):
the workplace and how we can how we can build
it and rechange it and reframe it. But what about
your personal life? Who are your friends? Who do you
hang out with? Yeah? You know, Um, I'm glad you
brought that up because I think while I was, you know,
healing in hell and while he's building the memo, I
really lost sense of self in those times that I
didn't really nurture the relations chips that that I had
(24:01):
in the ways that I wanted to. Or when you
would go out with your friends, you were going to events, right,
and so you don't really get to have that. And
I would honestly say it wasn't until probably the last
ten months where I said, you know what, minda you.
You are a fun person, but you're not being fun anymore.
You do like to do these things, you have a
(24:22):
sense of humor, but no one's over seeing that anymore.
And I really had to take a step back and say,
let me go hang out my friends who aren't entrepreneurs.
Let me go back and rebuild the you know, nurture
of these relationships. Because I do have a life. I
want a more balanced type of life, meaning that I
don't want everything to just be work related. I want
to also have fun and enjoy my life as well.
(24:42):
And so it's just in the last several months that
I've actually went back to saying, let me have dinners
with friends, you know, let me do these things. And
it's been I feel like I'm ten years younger because
I'm actually tapping into this part of myself that I've
neglected for such a long time. One of the things
I'm wondering is, I think it's so hard sometimes as
strong women to find good partners that are not intimidated
(25:07):
by your success or your strength. How have you found
that in your own romantic life? It's a hard thing
because I'm actually transitioned out of something that I was
in for a very long time. And I think that
the work I can't get in the way sometimes of that.
And if you don't have UM partners or people who
are invested in in you the same way that you're
(25:30):
invested in them, or that understand that this makes this
is a portion of my life, but it's not going
to be this way forever, right, UM, And to support
you and and just root you on that that means
so much, right And so I think UM, for me,
I realized more than ever. We talk about love languages,
and when I really get down to the root of it,
you know, as a partner, I need someone who gives
(25:51):
me words of affirmation. I need you know, that support
in certain ways, and when you're not getting that, you
have to make some difficult choices. Just like I've had
to make them in the workplace, I've had to make
them in relationship too. And but I think when we
start to cultivate other parts of our life, than what's
for us won't miss us. Right. So right now I
am enjoying a single life style with my fur baby Boston.
(26:14):
But I know now that I'm cultivating other areas of
my life. So what's for me won't miss me. And
so I'm just enjoying all of it now. And um,
as I was telling a friend the other day, we're
in a very unique situation. We don't have children, you know,
We you know, are driving in our work, like we
get to really ride this thing out and enjoy life
in a way that we might not have been able
to do it five years ago. And so I feel
(26:36):
a new sense of excitement and and I'm open to
dating prospects, you know, um uh, and and just enjoying
that part of my life again. We are going to
go to our speed round now. So we're just going
to ask you a few questions and you can give
us just quick answers. What are you watching right now?
(26:57):
I'm actually watching Abbott Elementary on ABC. It's actually funny.
It's kind of like the office, but in a school
system setting, that kind of What is your nighttime routine? Well,
now that I'm getting older, Amy, my nighttime routine is
really taking care of my skin. So I have like
all these space regiments that I'm doing and I'm actually
(27:20):
enjoying um them. But um, I recently went to a
like kind of this retreat at Maravelle in Arizona, and
I bought all these different like instance, and just really
lavenders and just making sure that I'm calm before I
go to bed, um, so that I'm not ruminating over
like stuff that hasn't even happened yet. And so for me,
my nighttime I is really sacred. I put my phone
(27:42):
on silence. I just really I read, I just reflect,
and nighttime is really special for me. Before bit, if
you could wave a magic wand and have one thing
happened in your career, what would it be? I want
to be a film producer. Um, so I want to
take my books to television. Where are you going on vacation?
When the pen that make us over anywhere? I'll take anything,
(28:06):
But I would like to go to Costa Rica. That
that would be guys who leaves You starstruck? So Luke
Burns has been listening to this entire conversation and he
is going to ask our final question. I wanted to
know more about your childhood and like your high school
(28:27):
life and your college life. You seem like a very
interesting person, you know, especially the topics that you talk about.
But um, I actually want to know what you're good
at besides the stuff that everybody knew, like writing books
and being an entrepreneur and talking about topics that are taboo.
What are you good at that you're not actually pursuing.
(28:48):
I really like to cook. Blue A lot of people
who don't know me outside of like in real life,
I do like to cook. I am like a very
domesticated person. A lot of people probably wouldn't get that
about me, but I love to invite people over. I
love to cook. I like to entertain, so that's something
that I don't do as often, but I really enjoy cooking.
Like I'm one of those people that nerd out on
(29:09):
Food Network and then try to like recreate that meal
inside my house, you know. So I really do love food,
and I think that comes from my dad. He was
the cook in our house and so he was always
cooking and um so I definitely love that too, even
in college. Even in college, I'd be in my dorm
room with a George Foreman grill and pot plate that
(29:30):
I shouldn't have had, and people would come in and
get food and all kinds. And I love lose second question,
which was you know, what were you like in high school,
I was a little like I had a lot of friends,
but I'd always say that I was friends to a
lot of people, but not a lot of people knew me. Right,
So I'm one of those people that you might think
(29:50):
you know a lot about me, but you don't really
know me till you've actually had so I have that
ability to make you feel like you know everything about me,
but you really know nothing about me. So ways, and
and I feel like that probably went through a whole
lot of my career. But now I'm realizing that it's
okay to let some people get to know you and
and in the different pieces of you, um and so.
(30:11):
But I always kept a lot of friends around, but
um and so, I was very social person, um but quiet,
If that makes sense. Where do you think that desire
for privacy comes from? Are we are we turning this
into a therapy session? You know? I think that desire
(30:32):
for privacy probably comes from growing up I think a
little bit poor, you know, being I was often around
a lot of people with influence, but our affluence and
but I was, you know, um, low income, And I
think I always wanted to present that I could still
I still belonged here too, right, And I think this
privacy for not letting people completely know what's behind the scenes.
(30:55):
Um I had one manager that I always would say, Uh,
let people see you our swan on top, even if
it's an ugly duck underneath, right, and so always presenting
in that way and so showing showing up in that way.
And so I think that that's part of that privacy,
not thinking that people would judge me if they really
knew what was underneath the hood. Um. So I think
(31:15):
that's part of it. And so I'm unpacking some of
those pieces of myself um on in on the internet
and in my books and things. Amy I found that
so interesting. The end piece where she kind of addresses
how private she is, I thought it was really interesting
(31:36):
too and kind of hard to get to write. I mean,
I think being private, but discussion about privacy to be
hard to get to. And one of the things that
was really interesting to me, and talking about Mende's family
and her her childhood, is like her parents must be
the most remarkable people. I mean, they raised three first
generation college graduates and it's just I mean that shows
(31:58):
a lot of love, respect, care, just a lot. It
is remarkable and I wanted so badly to hear even
more about her childhood because I bet she has fabulous
stories about them and how her family worked and operated.
And I want to know this secret to, you know,
turning out three children who are all so successful and
seemingly are all close today and you know, are all
(32:22):
thriving in this world. Yeah, I mean, Menda certainly is thriving,
and she's built a really powerful platform. Um and I
feel lucky that we got to talk with her. Thanks
for listening to What's Her Story with Sam and Amy.
We would appreciate it if you leave her review wherever
you get your podcasts, and of course, connect with us
on social media at What's Her Story podcast. What's Her
(32:44):
Story with Sam and Amy is powered by my company,
The Riveter at the Riveter dot Co and Sam's company,
park Place Payments at park place Payments dot com. Thanks
to our producer Stacy Para and our male perspective Blue
Burns
Hosts And Creators
Samantha Ettus
Amy Nelson
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