Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Sam Edis and I'm Amy Nelson. Welcome to
What's Her Story? With Sam and Amy. This is a
show about the world's most remarkable women, their professional and
personal journeys. Together, we'll hear from gold medalists, best selling authors,
and leaders of the world's most iconic brands. Today, we're
(00:24):
so excited to welcome Rachel Nichols to the show. Rachel
is the host of The Jump, which covers the NBA
every day for ESPN. So, Rachel, as a girl growing
up in Maryland, what did you want to be? Well,
it's funny. Pretty early on, I wanted to do a
version of the job I have, but it came in
(00:45):
sort of a strange way. Um, in six in when
I was in first grade is maybe a six year old,
they did a whole bulletin board like they do on
the side of six years of first grade classrooms, and
you had to pick what you wanted to be when
you grew up. And I was six years old, so
I had no idea what I wanted to be when
I grew up, but I already knew I liked watching
sports on TV, and the idea of being on TV
(01:08):
was just like completely foreign to me, so that didn't
even seem like an option. But I knew I was
learning how to write, so I said, oh, I could
write about sports. So I just wrote on my little
flower that they stapled in construction paper up to the
bulletin board. I want to be a sports writer for
a newspaper. And the more I went through school, the
(01:28):
more I was like, oh, actually, I think that is
what I want to do, and started doing internships pretty
early and things like that, and the more I did it,
the more I liked it, and that led to a
newspaper career and then eventually switching to television. Did you
grow up in a big sports family? I didn't um.
For me. It was like more of that escape. And
I have an older brother and a younger brother, and
my older brother just does not like sports. Everyone assumes
(01:49):
like a brother must have gotten you into it. No,
I got my younger brother into it. Actually. I grew
up in the DC area at a time where the
football team was really, really good. They won three Super Bowls.
From the time I was like a little kid, kind
of that same first grade age of you know, what
do you want to be when you grew up? I
think the whole town was so excited about the team
being in the Super Bowl. Like that's part of why
(02:10):
it was so present for me, of why I wanted
to do it. And certain people had jobs that had
to do with this football team. You want me to
fill in my little up construction paper flower that I
want to be a doctor or a lawyer. No, thank you,
I want to be doing that, and then um, they
want two more. By the time I was in college,
So just having that really heavy sports presence in the
(02:31):
town I was living in, Um, some of the other
teams were doing well at the time, and it just
sort of was a cool escape from the rest of
the stuff in my day to day life. I think
the fact that my family wasn't as into it was
kind of fun for me. It could be my thing.
And then of course, you know, I had a younger
brother who came along who became a total sports nut
to my stepfather ended up being a sports nut. So
like you know, different family members coming at different times.
(02:53):
But no, I mean it was really generated by me,
which is great because I think that helps me more
authentically kind of be who I am now. It was
just my own interest and something that I always thought
was so fun, and it seemed, as a six year old,
so much better than an office job. And it turns
out I'm in my forties and that's still true. How
did you get your first intern? Chap? So I did
the thing that Sam, I know you and I tell
(03:15):
our kids, which is, no, just go do the work
and it doesn't really matter at the beginning. And I
was lucky enough at the beginning that I could be
fourteen or fifteen years old and not have to like,
oh my gosh. I know some kids who had to
right away get a job at that age, and I
was fortunate enough not to. So I could go to
literally our local PennySaver newspaper that came out at the
(03:35):
grocery store once a week or something, and I went
in and said, hey, I just want to like hang
out and see what it happens in a newspaper. I
think I was fourteen, and I got coffee and ran
the copy machine. I mean I literally did all the
stereotypical things. I don't think I wrote a word. I
think it was just sort of figuring out how it worked.
And then from there, um, I interned at USA Today
(03:57):
when I was still in high school because again, I
was just kind of fortunate geographically. They're based in Washington,
d c uh, and that kind of launched me into
once I was in college, getting internships I could actually
get paid for, which was very exciting. We want to
talk about how you got to the n b A
and earned so much respect from the players and coaches
in the league. But what was that transition like when
you moved from newspaper reporter to you know, broadcaster For me,
(04:21):
you know, as that when I was a kid, like
just being on TV just seemed like the thing in
a box. And it's so different for kids now because
they have a screen in their pocket and everyone's on
TV in one way or another, right, But when we
were kids, it wasn't like that. It just the barrier
to entry was so high, and newspapers to me felt
very real. We got the newspaper delivered every day. Um.
It was a great newspaper, The Washington Post. I really
(04:43):
loved some of the writers in it. And at the
time that I was a kid, the woman who covered
the football team that I was so into was a woman,
Christine Brennan. And I didn't know this until later, but
she was actually the first woman to have a regular
a beat to be an NFL regular beat writer. They
never the women had done it in bits, but not
(05:05):
full time, and so it actually was a very groundbreaking
thing nationally that she had this job. But to me,
as a kid, I just thought, Oh, I love this
football team, and the person who covers it looks like
I'm gonna look when I grow up, and I think
it's a great example of representation, mattering so much and
sort of feeling like like, Oh, I see it, so
(05:25):
I can be it. So I did that, and to me,
newspapers were kind of always what I wanted to do.
I read All the President's Men two hundred times and
worked at the Washington Post. And I got that job
at the Washington Post, which was the thing I wanted.
But over my ten years or nearly ten years at
the Washington Post, the newspaper industry really changed, and um
just the budgets were different, the opportunities were different, and
(05:47):
the change because the Internet obviously and the rise of
cable television, and the opportunities more and more seemed to
be in TV. So I had been asked to do
different television things on the side of my newspaper job.
To kind of experiment, did I really want to do
it or not? And my bosses at the Washington Post
were good enough to let me do that, which I
think was a big deal. Uh. And then eventually there
was just sort of an inflection point where ESPN had
(06:09):
a job open that was gonna fit me both in
terms of subject and geography, and I decided, you know,
if not now when uh, and I sort of took
a guess, and it was it was a little bit
of a risk just because I was good at being
a writer. I had done it for a while, I
had a lot of experience. I knew what I was doing,
and TV I knew absolutely nothing what I was doing.
(06:29):
And I felt like I had earned my way up
in terms of covering sports again, been at the Washington
Post covering sports for a decade, but I hadn't earned
my way up at all in terms of TV. And
the traditional route for people on TV is to start
in that local market in you know, some small town
in North Dakota or Alabama or just sort of you know,
some far far flung place and then work your way up.
(06:52):
And I didn't have any of that, so I didn't
know if I was going to completely fall on my
face on national television, and I probably did a bunch
of times, but then I just kind of learned to
do it a little less often, which is where I
am right now. Did anyone help you learn how to
do it? Yeah? I had so much help along the way.
I mean, I don't I'm sure there are successful people
that do it completely on their own, but I wasn't
one of them. I mean I they're countless, countless people
(07:15):
along the way, whether it's producers who sat and worked
with me and said, no, no, no, this is how
you talk on TV to people, just in the larger sense,
navigating ESPM, which is a huge company, and and sort
of anytime you switched to a big company, it's a
whole thing to figure out sort of all the individual
morays and things of that particular place to just sort
of navigating the larger sports world. You know, I just
(07:36):
don't know why one of my business who hasn't had help.
And for me, it was certainly the case of what's
made me successful with it different earning the respect of
people from the Washington Post side, for example, versus suddenly
you're on air. You have to gain the respect of
the players, you know, standing on the court, you know,
asking them questions, how is that different? I think one
(07:57):
of the biggest things was I fortunately was coming the
base of like respect in the sports world, and those
relationships translated to me switching to TV, so that was good.
I didn't I didn't really have to like refold or
rework some of my relationships with athletes or teams or
anything like that. But I did kind of have to
establish and this took a lot internally as well as
(08:19):
just what I projected to other people of what kind
of person did I want to be on TV? And
did that person have credibility? So, for example, I am
not blond, I am not tall, I am not glamorous.
These are all things that traditionally, especially in sports, if
you're a woman, you had to be to be on television. Um,
I am zero for three on any of those. So
(08:39):
for a while I tried to do like my best
impression of that, which was to try to be very
smooth and talk very glossy in a way on television
and have my hair a certain way. And do you know,
I unfortunately could not trick anyone into being taller that
that never came off. But but I was trying to
be this thing that I saw, and uh, colleague of mine,
(09:01):
who also is just a little bit different. Unfortunately he's
passed but dearly departed. Our friend Stewart Scott, who was
not like the typical TV anchor himself, kind of pulled
me aside at one point and said, hey, you're just
never going to succeed trying to be someone else because
you could only probably hit like your best day at
trying to be and these are my words, not his, tall,
(09:23):
glamorous and blonde. You might hit like sixty five or
sevent of that, and no one wants someone who's sixt
of what they're looking for. You have to try to
be of you, and then hopefully that's enough for that's
different or that's what somebody wants and they think, oh,
maybe I don't need someone who's tall, blinding glamorous, Maybe
I want this instead. And that was great advice because
I was just never going to succeed that way. And
(09:44):
for me, it was being comfortable looking how I look.
It was being comfortable being My manner is not to
be very smooth and polished and glamorous when I'm on television.
It is very much Hey, I'm talking to you and
we're having a conversation like we would if we were
sitting at your kitchen table. And some people and even
some network executives I've run into, that's just not their
cup of tea. They want someone presenting to them and
(10:06):
they want that in a more formal way. But there
are definitely people who it resonates with to be feel
like you're just more of having a conversation with your friend,
and that is my strength is to be able to
make people feel like that and it's genuine and so
it works a lot better than me trying to be
something else. Do you think it's changed a lot for
reporters now? So for a woman reporter who's coming up
(10:28):
to be an on air NBA reporter, sports reporter, are
the expectations different than they used to be? Yeah, it is,
and that's a good thing, right, And it's not, by
the way all the way where it would be or
should be or can be, or the way it is
for men. So that's a bummer, but we're still working
toward it. But yes, it's it's progress has been made,
and that's awesome. It's been made in a couple of directions.
It's been made in terms of what you have to
(10:49):
look like or sound like to be on TV. There
are many more women now on sports television who are
not all tall, blond, glamorous. It's not just me. So um,
it just leaves the door wide are open for more
people to sort of be like, oh I look or
sound like this, and that's cool. That's a different approach
I didn't expect. That's great. That gives me a variety,
you know, that sort of thing. I think helps uh,
(11:10):
someone who's younger and starting out now that there's just
more doors open. And then also in sports, Uh, the
sports world is different than it was twenty five years ago,
and women are just more of the conversation and more
people that you would see in sports environments. So a
young player coming in isn't surprised to see a female
reporter in the locker room. When I was a young
female reporter in locker rooms, they were all still very
(11:31):
surprised and treated it was. It was something to be
commented on. And so I think if you're a younger
woman today, starting to just not have that whole layer
to deal with is great. Um, But it doesn't mean
it's easy. It still requires more work. For women in
my field than it does for men, you know in general.
Obviously there's different exceptions along the way. We talked about
making the move from writing to TV and kind of
(11:54):
rebuilding the way you put it in the rebuilding credibility
or you know, defining who you are. But you've always
and known for asking really hard hitting questions, especially I
mean in asking them of really powerful people, like asking,
you know, Floyd Mayweather about domestic violence, Like how do
you prepare to do something like that? I think that's
the exact perfect word is prepared, Right. I think, Um,
(12:18):
if you really feel like you know the information cold
and you understand whatever issue you're digging into in a
real way, and that you are asking these hard questions
in a fair way, that isn't just sort of a
performance for TV. I mean that we've all seen it, right,
that the performative gotcha interview that's really more about the
show than it is about the person they're interviewing. Um.
(12:41):
I think if you come at it smart, prepared, not
looking to you know, make your own hay off of
someone else's answer, I honestly think then it becomes a
much I don't want to say easier or but a
much more sort of straightforward proposition. You ask the hard question,
because the hard question is there, it needs to be asked,
and you are completely prepared to you know, kind of
follow up if the person tries to evade it or
(13:02):
throw it back at you. It doesn't feel as daunting
if you've set up all of that stuff ahead of time,
if you're prepared ahead of time and you know kind
of what you what you want to do grow going
in and what impact does social media have now in
terms of knowing there's going to be a backlash. Whatever
you do, you're most likely going to have a backlash. Fortunately,
I'm old. I don't know the nice polite way to
say that, but the real way to say that is,
(13:25):
especially for being a woman in this business, um, you know,
once you hit cross forty like you might as well
have a walker like I mean, you know, having been
around a while though, the advantage of that is you
have the perspective that any minute or day or week
of social media backlash will pass. And then guess what,
brace yourself because in two months there's gonna be another one,
(13:47):
and in two months from that there's gonna be another one.
And I also have the perspective of watching it with
the athletes that cover, it's really interesting. Um, you know,
I covered Michael Jordan when he was playing, and that
was right at the beginning of my career and at
the end of his career. But I was obviously like
a huge thing for me to have a day to
day job where I covered him a lot, and he
was amazing and incredible as an athlete and such a
(14:09):
fascinating person. But during his career, while he was playing,
he had a lot of critics and we don't have
We didn't have the Internet then, and thank God for
that in some ways when I think back on his career,
but there were still plenty talk radio, newspaper columnists, There's
still plenty of avenues for people to be critical of
Michael Jordan's and there are a lot of people who
were very critical of Michael Jordan's in certain moments of
(14:31):
his career. Now especially I don't know if anyone listening
watch The Last Dance last spring, that whole docuseriesas that
was just fascinating, even if you're not a basketball fan,
it was kind of fascinating to get drawn into people
walk away. Now you know, they love Michael Jordan's there's
no one you saw in the docuseries. You saw different
peaks and valleys that are what I'm talking about of
(14:52):
when if you were there in the moment the criticism,
but there is you walk down the street today, nobody
cares that Michael Jordan went to Atlantic said the day
before he played the playoff game, I promise you you
will not find one person on the street who thinks
that's a big deal. In the moment. Did it feel
like a really big deal? Oh yes, yes, it got
crazy criticism and attention. Days of people saying Michael Jordan's
(15:15):
a terrible human, like he doesn't care about his team,
all of this stuff, disrespectful to the game, like all
the all the stuff that people like to say. Does
one person care about it today? No, they do not.
So I think that having again being old, having the
perspective of knowing this two show pass and trust me
in you know X a number of minutes, hours, days,
(15:36):
there's gonna be a whole new thing coming. You just
can't get as worked up about anything because you would
be exhausted all the time. I mean, it's just that's
kind of where I am on it now. Doesn't mean
social media is always wrong or not useful or not
an interesting tool for feedback or or sort of seeing
what people are interested in. I'm a big fan of it.
I think it's connected us in a way, especially during
the pandemic that led us, especially on my side of
(15:57):
sports fans kind of experienced some things together where we
couldn't go to an arena and do that. But I
just think it's, like everything else, you have to know
to take it with a bit of a grain of
salt and not make it your whole, whole world view.
Are there anything anything in your work now that that
gets you worked up? Sure all the time. Um, and
I try to kind of find my zen a little
(16:18):
bit more. Um. I think the past year year in change.
I mean, I can't believe we now have to say
year and with coronaviruss we're still going here. But um,
you know, I think we we all took different things
out of the the last year and a half. And one
of the things that I have been truly able to
do a little bit better. I mean, I'm still I think,
just like most other women who are in the workforce,
(16:39):
like you, obsess over everything a little bit more because
you know that every standard is higher, and that you
have to kind of kind of keep things in a
different way than than a let of them, and we
work with do. But I have been able to be
a little bit better about realizing this isn't that important,
you know, Like I mean, people in this country, you
have been dealing with so many hard things now for
(17:02):
for quite a while, and this is just what's happening
between two people who kick a ball around. It's just
it's just not that important. And so while there are
things that stressed me out, and there are things that
I wish I did differently, and there are things that
frustrate me because things don't go the way I think
they should, I've been better at just saying, okay, it's
(17:22):
a bunch of guys, you know, throwing a ball around,
and my job is to talk about them, which is
even more insignificant than the guys throwing the ball, and um,
it's all gonna be okay. You know, I think I've
been better at that. So I wish the last year
and a half didn't happen. And there's been so many
people who have suffered tragic loss. But if that's a
given and that's just the way it's been. Hopefully those
(17:42):
of us who have been able to move forward can
take the perspective of okay, it's all, okay, it's fine,
and now for a quick break. I remember a few
years ago when you called out Charles Barkley for using
the term girly as an insult. Yea, And I showed
the video of you doing that to my daughter, and
you've been like her hero ever since. I think that,
(18:05):
you know, if more women like you use their voices,
we would have so much less of the misogyny around.
But it seems like you have feel a huge responsibility
to use your voice. Yeah, and it's hard. Charles Barkley
is a friend of mine and someone who has been
incredibly supportive in my career, and I would to this
day go to the map for him and tell you
or anyone else like, absolutely, he's your guy. He's the
(18:26):
one who has been supportive basically of women in a
lot of other ways. So sometimes it's hard. It's hard.
There's times you're like, maybe I should just let this go.
But it was in a very public national way, and
it just felt to me like, hey, we just got
to not use that as an insult, like that's that's
not okay, my daughters are listening. And to his credit,
(18:46):
he took that in the way it was intended, which
was two friends having a discussion. And I think there
are there is a responsibility if I'm sitting in that
chair to say something, to open my mouth when something
comes up that maybe I would notice way in the
way one of my male colleagues wouldn't. And hopefully you
just kind of keep moving the line a little inch
at a time over to, um, hey, we're gonna treat
(19:09):
people with this level of respect, and we're gonna treat
people with this level of respect. And that's always the
way I phrase it, too, because I definitely have some
colleagues who'll be like, oh, I can't say anything anymore,
you know, that kind of complaint of like, well what
am I allowed to say? And I'm like, well, first
of all, it's not about what you're not allowed to say.
It's about what we should be. We owe to the
people we're working with their covering or talking about or
(19:31):
whatever it is, we owe them the same level of
respect that you would expect, and so therefore don't use
some of these words. And then also my answer to
that in general is like if you wouldn't do this
to your mother in law, don't do it to the
woman you work with, So like, that's that's sort of
the larger answer, and um, and that that was one
of those cases. But it is hard. It's hard. You
don't want to be the morality please for everyone all
(19:52):
the time. It's exhausting and that's no fun. So you
do have to kind of pick your spots on what
you say and when. But that one in particular, I
don't rememb under the exact context, Sam, although I do
remember the moment just felt to me like, hey, it
was worth saying something, but saying something in the context
of I love Charles, He's a great dude, he does
a great job. And let's just use a different word.
(20:12):
You know, a lot of times it is an and
and I think sometimes we're hard. We're afraid to ask
questions like that because people see it as this issue
of polarity, where like, you must be a bad person
if you said something like yes, but really it's just
an and in an opportunity to do something different. But
on a different note, you met your husband at summer camp.
I did I know? Yes, we were um fourteen years old.
(20:37):
I always like to make clear for both of our sakes,
we have not been dating that whole time. Through he
dated other women, I dated other people. Uh well, I mean,
you know it's important to say, but no, the the
it's an awesome thing to be able to be partners
with someone that you've known that long. And I feel
incredibly lucky. He's an incredible guy. And you know, it's
(20:58):
pretty funny now that we have kids who are of
an age to go to Sleepweight Camp because that's where
we met. So, you know, my kids, unfortunately their their
camp experience, or what was going to be the first
camp experience, was interrupted by the pandemic. But not only
are they now of an age where they could be
going to camp and maybe meeting their future husband or wife,
(21:18):
but that you know, the camp we went to still around,
still exists, and there are kids in their elementary school
class who go to that camp, which is just really
random camp. It's a camp in Maine. It's called Camp Laurel.
And so the idea that we live in southern California
and our kids are in a small class at school
(21:40):
and in that class, two of the girls go to
that camp is just absolutely mind blowing. When we found
that out and really fun and a cool part of
our personal story, I guess. So. Yeah, we were camp
boyfriend girlfriend and didn't see each other for like a
decade and they got back together, got married, had children
and got to meet Sam Edis at this elementary school
all of our kids to go to. So it's really
(22:01):
that's the end and moral of the story is that
you know, if you choose your camp boyfriend right, you
can meet to have that at us. That's kind of
how which it's really all the journeys, but really all
anybody exactly? I agree? I agree, Well, so it sounds
like an amazing love story born at camp. Yes, but
what do you fight about today? Like everybody else, we
(22:23):
fight about all all the regular stuff. Um, and I
respect him so much. I'm not going to start discussing
our relationship on a podcast, um, but I will, I will.
I will say that. Um, you know, I am And
I've said this plenty when I talk about my work,
and we haven't gotten into this aspect yet, but as
a working mom and someone who balances travel and work
in a high pressure job, to have a partner who
is completely all in with our kids and does much
(22:47):
more than I do of sort of some of their
day to day stuff that one parent at least needs
to be able to do because I'm in I've been
when I'm talking to you, guys, I've been in four
cities in five days. I can't do that if there
isn't someone else making where my children have eaten, right, Like,
that's the priority. So yeah, to put a bow on that. Well,
it's so funny to say that because so often I
(23:09):
have people, you know, asking me, well, I don't understand
how you do, and I just can't make it work.
And you're like, kind of look at that person. You're like,
you're doing of the work at home and that's never changing.
So without a partner, either you have to be single,
or you have to be partnered with someone who believed
in doing otherwise you're screwed. You're never going to reach
your potential. And I think we don't say that enough.
(23:31):
We give people all these tools and productivity apps, and
it's actually a little more simple than that. It's like
partner with a good guy, partner with a good woman
like that, that's actually what it's about. And I think
that that we don't talk about that enough yet. For sure,
absolutely do talk with your kids about your career? Oh sure, yeah, no, absolutely,
And I think you know again, Sam mentioned her daughters,
(23:52):
and I've watched Samanthan action. She's an incredible role model
for her girls. And I have told Sam a bunch
of my girls use her girls as a role model.
So thank you for that trickle down. Um, But um,
it's true, and I think that, uh, it is important
to have all those conversations, and it's both sides. We
talk about all of it, right, So we talk about, um,
(24:12):
when I have to go on a business trip and
I have to leave them for an important thing, like
why and what that means and what that work will
get me, and we talk about how if you One
thing that I talked about my kids a lot is
having choices, and that my goal for them isn't that
they get into a certain school or have a certain career,
but I do want them to put themselves in a
(24:32):
position where they have choices, where they are not dependent
first of all, someone else making the decisions for them
in a marriage or in some other other way where
they have no choice or no say. Because we know
plenty of women in this country, unfortunately are in a
position where because the system is so stacked against them.
They are then dependent on the person they're married to
in a way where then they can't get out and
(24:52):
have a choice if they want to. UM. So I
want them to be able to always have that choice.
I want them to have choices in their job right
that if they're in a st and company or a
certain field, to have choices, to be able to engineer
a job the way that will best fit their talent
or their life. To have choices, you need to work hard.
That is kind of one of the main messages we
talk about at home, and so it's a good sort
(25:13):
of catch all for why I have to go on
a business trip. It's a good catch all for why
I have to even once I'm home and they're like, well,
but your home now, I'm like, right, but I still
have to have this meeting, or I still have to
do this on the phone, or I still have to
be on my computer for a little bit of time.
Because it is you cannot do the things that are
the fun things without all of the work and hours
and dedication that's behind it. So we talked a lot
about that and that it is going to be a
(25:35):
trade off as they get older and decide what they
want for their own lives. There isn't just one way
to do it. I obviously am very type A. I
like kind of constantly working and kind of constantly having
all these different things going on. I like succeeding at things,
and so therefore I get the little you know, mental
reward whatever it called, when it when a task is
completed whatever that like endorphin rushes. I like that. Not
(25:56):
everybody does, though, by the way, and that there are
I understand, it's a little bit of a sickness um
that that um you know they are. They might grow
up and decide that they want a different kind of
life where you know, they are outdoors all day or
they you know. But that's and that's fine, and I
want that for them. Um. But the key I think
when you're raising kids to come into that environment, especially
(26:16):
young girls, frankly, and that's all I have, so I
can't I can't speak to boys, but um, you know,
to make sure they understand how the sausage is made
and what's going to get them those choices later on
and then if they can shoot, as far as I'm concern,
they can choose whatever they want. I just want them
to be able to have those choices. Well, what are
your travel rituals You're in different cities all the time, yes, well,
of course right now everything is crazy because of coronavirus.
(26:37):
And I will say, shout out science. Um, I have
felt much better traveling since I've been vaccinated, right, Like,
I mean, it's just things are now. You know, you
get on an airplane. Now, there was a point where
I had to travel mid pandemic, I would say, or
early pandemic, I don't know, whatever you consider. Last summer
was because I was going back and forth to Orlando
and the NBA bubble, which is a whole by the way.
(26:59):
Differently to that travel discussion where you just didn't want
to get near anyone and if someone was sitting, I
mean even someone. At that point, they were holding every
other seat on most airlines open. But even so, every
other seat still means that there's someone even if they
were across the aisle from you, like, I mean, that's
still much closer than we were told we were supposed
to be. So it was very anxiety making. Now I
(27:22):
have someone literally four inches from me. I mean, there's
no open seats on airplanes right now, so there's someone
four inches next to me, so being vaccinated, who has
really changed that? That is a side note yea vaccines,
YEA science. The larger question you're asking though about travel
and just doing it in regular life is that, you know,
before I had kids, I was a little bit more
careful about, oh, I want to be on X airline
(27:45):
because I was younger in my career and I wanted to,
you know, I wasn't get the company, wasn't find me
places in the same way. So I was like, oh,
if I get on X airline enough, I can get upgraded,
you know, or like, oh, you know, I was going
to New Orleans a decent amount earlier in my ESPN career,
and I of New Orleans and it would be like, oh, well, okay,
I mean I'm supposed to leave on Tuesday. Well I'm
not gonna leave it Tuesday at nine am. I'm gonna
(28:06):
leave on Tuesday at too, so I can have lunch first,
because lunch in New Orleans is awesome. So I would
do that kind of stuff. I don't do any of
that anymore. I take whatever airline is has has like
a freight crater out, I will take it. And I
just try to get home as much as possible. So
to give an example, I was in San Francisco on
(28:27):
Friday and then the same group of people was going
to I was working a game, and then I went
to go work a game also on Sunday, and all
of the guys I worked with left San Francisco, and
the next morning or maybe the next afternoon, they took
their time, um as they should have. They had nothing
else going on, flew to Phoenix, probably hit a nice dinner,
(28:47):
woke up in Phoenix on Sunday morning, and did our work.
I because I felt like, well, from San Francisco to Phoenix,
I have to fly pretty much directly over Los Angeles,
like I will see our house. I can't do that.
So I raced after our game. Our game was kind
of early on Friday. It was a six o'clock game,
so at nine and the game went into overtime, which,
by the way, you know, you start having these personal
(29:10):
heart attacks that have nothing to do with which team
you want to win. You just as a working mom,
We're like, well, I need to get out because I
have an airplane ticket tonight. So I didn't care who
on the game. I just wanted them not to go
into overtime, and then they go into overtime, and I'm like,
oh my god, my kids are already asleep in bed
when this is happening, so they're gonna wake up and
expect me to be there. And what if the game
goes into double overtime and I can't make my flight?
(29:31):
So you start thinking about that stuff. Then finally the
game ends and it was great and it was fantastic game.
But I'm the minute my you know, the minute we
go to dead air and someone else takes over, I
am racing out of the building. I'm getting to the airport.
And it was a ten twenty pm flight. I think
I got to the airport at like nine forty something,
race through security, get on the plane, get home around midnight.
(29:54):
So I can spend seven or eight hours on Saturday
with my kids because I hadn't seen them in a
few days, and then take an eight thirty pm flight
to Phoenix. So there you go. That's my that's my
travel window in a n show. Okay, if you called
me and said, hey, what should I do? I would
be like, absolutely, do not go back to see your
(30:15):
kids for those seven hours because the amount of check
that's causing you is so not worth it, and they'll
be fine, they won't even notice if you're not back
on Sunday night. Yes, it's all for you, not for them, right, Yes,
but it is. And it's funny. That is such a
great distinction, and it has helped my decision making. But
that's what flipped me in the other way. So you're
(30:36):
absolutely right. I used to say that all the time
when I would travel, even when they were babies, and
I would get some horrified looks of you know, some
people being like, I can't believe you left your twin
infants at home, and I would say, my twin infants
want to know if there's milk and a place to sleep,
that's what they want to know. They don't even know
if I'm there or not. But it was for me, right,
like I would sometimes want to come home. For me,
you want to hold your beautiful babies, same thing on
(30:58):
this Saturday. It was a thousand percent for me, and
understanding that is kind of the key in making those decisions.
But for me, I was going to feel better even
dealing with the stress and the juggling of the different
flights and how it was going to change my day
and then having to flight a Phoenix late on Saturday
night and getting to that hotel at midnight. Um, I
still could make the decision that for me, having those
(31:18):
seven or eight hours with them was going to feel
better than feeling like I was sort of wasting the
day traveling or in an airport or something. So I
do think you're absolutely right about what the lever is.
But then once that's the lever, you just have to
decide what's gonna make you feel better. Absolutely yeah, And
then you can make your next decision based on that too,
and it might not be as painful, it might be different.
(31:39):
So yeah, but it is a lot, especially at this
time of year when we were in the NBA playoffs
and that's the main thing I do. So, um, you know,
it's a juggle, but but you know, I'm reminded there's
there's so many working moms who do this kind of thing.
And by the way, not just the people covering basketball,
but the players also. The w n b A had
a bubble last summer as well, and they actually, unlike
the men's version, they allowed the women of the w
(32:02):
n b A to bring their kids and they had
childcare set up for them, and that is something that
is really remarkable. I think that we need to see more.
And now for a quick break. Okay, so we're gonna
go to the speed round and then Love is going
to come in with his final question, Amy Kikaa, what
book are you reading right now? I am reading an
airline schedule right now. I'm going to totally cop to that.
(32:23):
I I finished a book on San Francisco that I
was reading for a long time. I don't know why
San Francisco has come into this conversation for a while,
but it was one of those like um historical. It
was like sort of the history of San Francisco from
the sixties through now. It's called The Season of the
which is very good. But once I finished and put
down that book. During the playoffs, no I read basketball stories.
(32:43):
I read watch replays of games. That is what I'm
doing right now, and then I will pick back my
supper reading once the NBA Championship is awarded. What is
your summer hold? This summer is really condensed, just like
last summer, just because the NBA schedule on so many
of our lives have been like kind of uprooted by COVID,
so Normally I'm done with through to my MBA duties
by early July, and this year I'm not gonna be
(33:07):
done until early August, or maybe even after the first
week of August. So we will see. And then of
course school starts when it starts, right, so we're fortunate
enough that school stars after Labor Day. I know a
lot of families school starts in the middle of August
for them. Um, so at least have a few weeks
and we'll go back to the East Coast, see our
families were both from the East Coast, and and just
spend some time. I think again with COVID, just the
(33:28):
basic Hey, we're going home to see the grandparents. Like that.
That feels so nice and something we weren't allowed to
do left year. Who leaves the star struck? I think
because I've been fortunate enough to be around a lot
of really famous and accomplished athletes, I now kind of
it's the littler moments that I get more star struck by,
whether it's just sort of someone's story where it's someone
(33:50):
in a high school gym somewhere, uh, those little stories
you see a Good Morning America or something like that,
where it's like the kid who was the trainer who
became to this and hit the last shot. You know,
those kind of thing things, those really are, Play those
over and over. But I also think I get a
little bit more starstruck by people who have accomplished something specific.
I was watching a Simone Biles video yesterday. Oh my god, right,
(34:12):
I mean if you watch that woman, and so I
think the idea that like, oh, she is doing this
thing in this space that I know was hard, harder
for her to get there than some other people, and
she just did this specific thing I can see and
be amazed by. I think that's more than a specific
person being star truck, but more by specific accomplishments. Something
Amy and I talk about a lot because we're both
(34:34):
so busy and mom ng a lot of kids. Seven
between us. Amy as four kids. I have three. So
one thing to talk about a lot is like, our
friendships don't look like all the other mom's friendships at school, right,
like they might get to see each other every day,
And so how do you maintain your friendships? You know,
I think I have. I'm very lucky. I have friends
who understand that they might not hear from me for
(34:54):
a little bit and that's okay, and then we can
pick right back up where we left off. And it
has probably meant that I have lost out on having
some friends who aren't vibing with that. And then I
understand that too, Like I just can't necessarily be all
things to all people at all times. And that's okay.
I'm I'm comfortable with that, and I'm very lucky. I
have some very dear friends who have get me and
(35:17):
understand me and understand my life and are patient with me.
So that's been pretty great. Well, that is them what
I really want to ask, because you see so many
like crazy moments when players like lose their ship, accurate
throw stuff and like and like fighting like and like
just lose their ship. You know, what is what is
(35:38):
one of them that that like took you back when
you when you witnessed it, Like there's there's all kinds
of them. But I mean, I was yesterday, I was
in Phoenix at the Lakers Sons game, and if I
broke out in the middle of the game, and it's
ten feet for me and I'm sitting there going, oh, okay,
I guess this is happening now, and it is a
funny thing and that, and I will say, in today's NBA,
you don't have real fighting the way you did when
I first started covering the league, where people were throwing
(35:59):
like pretty serious punches. Now it's kind of like the
fake kind of he pushed me, Um, he was mean
to me. But yes, even given that, even in the
reduced form, and every once in a while, I real
fight will still break out. There is no other part
of my life where I see grown men push, shove
and hit each other. It just does not regularly happen
at school pickup, or in the grocery store, or when
(36:21):
I run to the drug store for something, or in
my office. So you know, it is a little bit
jarring every time, as long as I've been doing this,
as much as you see it to be in a
football stadium or a basketball arena or wherever you are
and see grown men hitting each other, um as just
part of what happens. I covered hockey for a while,
where obviously there is more fighting, and it was like, oh,
(36:44):
these guys just started wailing on each other, and then
two minutes they're going to sit in a box, which
is also weird, and then they're gonna come out and
just keep doing their jobs. There's no other part of
my life that works that way. So there were moments
where you sit there and say, well, this is a
weird thing to do for a living, but it's also cool.
And this is the reason why when I was six
years old, I wrote it on my little construction paper, Flower,
this is what I want to do when I grew up.
(37:08):
It was really interesting to talk to Rachel. I think
I was expecting her to be a lot more, maybe
like high strung, because sometimes I think really ambitious women
who get it done are like that, likes a type
A plus, A plus plus type A plus. Rachel just
seems like she's just really low key, and yet she
just methodically has built this incredible career and an incredible family. Yeah. Now,
(37:29):
I really admire how she's used her voice and the
way she speaks up is so levelheaded but so brilliant,
and how she shares her her opinions. And I think
it's probably part of what's led to her success. Is
she she's really impressive. I just like her so much.
We need to add Rachel to our post pandemic dinner
party list. Sam, I'm writing it down. Thanks for listening
(37:54):
to What's Her Story with Sam and Amy. We would
so appreciate if you would leave her view wherever you
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(38:14):
our producer Stacy Para, our social media manager Phoebe crane Fest,
and our male perspective Blue Burns