December 24, 2020 • 43 mins
What’s Her Story with Sam & Amy sits down with best-selling author and legendary business journalist Suzy Welch, in her first interview since the passing of her iconic husband, Jack Welch. Suzy’s many experiences, from becoming Editor in Chief of Harvard Business Review as a single mom of four to forging through a public scandal, to processing the loss of a spouse, give her a profound perspective on life. She shows us how an intentional mindset can bring happiness and strength, even when going through extremely difficult times.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, I'm Sam Edis and I'm Amy Nelson. Welcome to
What's Her Story with Sam and Amy. This is a
show about the world's most remarkable women. They're professional and
personal journeys. Together, we'll hear from gold medalists, best selling authors,
and leaders of the world's most iconic brands. So Amy, Today,
we are sitting down with one of my favorite people,
(00:24):
Susie Welch. I've known Susie for a number of years.
I interviewed her years ago and kind of really just
clicked with her immediately and amazingly, this is her first
interview since her iconic husband, Jack Welch, passed away in March,
and I am really honored to be talking to her today.
(00:47):
I was especially excited for you to meter because she's
a mom of four and she's so relatable. I mean,
I am as excited as you for this conversation. Even
though I haven't met Susie, I follow her on Instagram
and she says some really kind of profound things about
how she's how she's gone through her own life from
being a single moment for to this amazing love story
(01:09):
with Jack Welch and all through it, building this remarkable
career of her own, from being the editor of the
Harvard Business Review to best selling books and so there's
I'm just really excited. So let's talk to Susie. So,
I'm sure it's been grueling two thousand twenty. Did you
feel prepared for what happened in March? We were very prepared.
(01:34):
I have to say that. You know, I have friends
who have lost their husbands, and some of them have
had to deal with both the grief of losing your
partner but also the shock. And one thing that we
did not have was shock. We were prepared. We knew
about two years beforehand that we probably didn't have two
years and then we UM. A year beforehand, Jack was
(01:58):
in the hospital hit kidney disease and using hospital and
one and we the results of his tests were not
going in the right direction. And UM at the time
our son was engaged, and one of the doctors, UM said,
I think you better, UM see if you can expedite
that wedding knowing what was impending was UM. You know,
it was in many ways his sort of finest hours,
(02:22):
because he was unbelievably good in preparing and UM talking
to me about my next life and making sure that
he said his goodbyes to everybody thoroughly and um, and
so yeah, we were prepared and I actually was able
to grieve with Jack, which is I've talked to other
people who have gone through it, and that's a blessing
in a way, is that we were able to talk
of you know, a lot, you know, all the things
(02:43):
I would have wanted to say to him after he died.
I was able to see him while he was still living.
So what was Jack able to plan the memorial with you? Um? Yes, two, yes, somewhat.
We had one strong differing opinion and that he wanted
me to deliver the eulogy. And we thought about it,
(03:04):
you know, it really fight. But he was like, you
gotta do it, Susy. Nobody can do it but you.
And I was like, Jack, it's highly irregular for the
wife to deliver the eulogy. Just doesn't happen. And uh,
he was like, no, you gotta do it, you gotta
do it. And I said him, I just can't do it.
And I told him I would like Ken and Mike
to do the eulogies and he was like, come on,
and you know, I finally I finally said him, fine,
(03:26):
I'll do it. I know. I thought, well, I was
never gonna do it. Was wasn't gonna do yell at
me when we see each other again. But he couldn't.
But I couldn't find him anymore, and it meant a
huge amount to him. And we had a three day
wake up where people came to our home and I
was able to say everything I need to say about
him to people close to him. So one of the
most powerful stories I've ever heard was years ago when
(03:50):
I had the opportunity to interview you on Obsessed TV,
which was another lifetime ago. You told the story of
how you met Jack Welch and how it changed your life,
and I would love for you to share that story today.
It was twenty years ago. So I was the editor
of the Harvard Business Review and Jack had retired, just
(04:13):
retired from being the CEO of g and that was
like sort of the interview get of the of my career. UM.
And he didn't want to talk to me. UM. He
thought that HBr, the Harvard Business Review, was a sort
of fat headed intellectual, uh you know, academic journal. He
wanted no part of. He didn't like UM academics, period academics,
and uh, finally a mutual friend professor at Michigan Business School,
(04:37):
persuaded him to meet me for an interview, and I, um,
I went to thirty Rock and what up in that elevator?
And uh never nothing was ever the same again because
we met and we just had incredible, um, just an
incredible connection. And I mean you could make the case
even though it sounds incredibly corny and hopey and unbelievable,
(04:59):
and um. As an aside, I'll tell you that I'm
a realist. Okay, So I say that because I do
not believe in loved first sight. I do not believe
lightning strikes. I do not believe in all that stuff.
I have a woman who was divorced with four young children.
I didn't believe in any of that stuff. And yet
it happened to me. Um, and we did fall in
love and and then we sort of blew up our lives.
(05:19):
I had less of a life to blow up because
I was divorced, and um, but Jack was still married
at the time, not happily obviously, and we I got fired.
And okay, but let's not class over the right exactly.
That's so funny. That's true. You beat social media, so
that back then you were a superstar. You were Susie
(05:42):
wet Low for editor and s Harvard Business Reviews. Off
to get there, and you had four young kids and
we're a single mom divorced. You walk into that room,
what what went through your mind? I mean at I was.
I was very excited to me to be doing this interview,
(06:05):
which was going to be a huge gift for me
and I you know, one of the first things I
thought was, why is he looking at me that way?
Because his eyes were like cutting a hole. Now this
became a very familiar look because then he spent the
next twenty years looking at me that way, with these
eyes just cutting right through me. But I was like,
why is he looking at me that way? And I remember,
like after the interview, actually thinking to myself, Um, no,
(06:26):
wonder he's so famous because he looks at people that way.
But I found out later that he did actually only
really looked at me that way, and he liked me
a lot. And he said to me at the end
of that interview, among many other things that were said
in those a couple of hours, to your best friend.
And it was true. We were best friends right away.
We just really I mean I have to say, we
just really really really dug each other. Um, and it
(06:47):
was just you know, uh um, it was just we
just have been waiting for each other our whole lives.
I mean, I don't know any other way to put it.
It's so corny and geeky, but I mean it came.
You know, you have thought, you know, and there were
plenty of people who thought for the first couple of years,
well this will fizzle out, and you know, this is
a flash of the pan. But you know, I loved
(07:08):
him till his dying breath. It was me and the
kids had just gone to bed, and it was me
and our our most beloved dog. So it was what
we thought we had we did have and um, and
we would have had it for another twenty years, but
we Um. Nobody gets that lucky. I guess. Well, I
loved your love story then, and it brings me into
tears again now. It really is amazing. Thank you. I
(07:32):
was a lucky, lucky person. What was it like dealing
with the blowback? I mean, because you were that it
was massively successful woman right well in my in my field, okay,
I mean it's not like I was, you know, like
you know, but I in my field, which was business journalism,
I was doing quite well. It was terrible. I mean
it was like people said, the shittiest thing can I
(07:55):
sware on this podcast? I could beat me? People said,
you know I was, you know, I'm just an ultimate boar,
Like I don't drink and I really don't drink. I don't.
The first class of one I had was with Jack
because my dad had not been great with alcohol, and
so I was, I don't drink, I don't. I didn't
party it four young children. I like worked and went
(08:16):
home and like cooked poorly for my children, and and
the stuff people said was like I remember when my
nanny said to me, Wow, you had a really amazing life.
Too bad you weren't there because just I was my
first experience of people just making stuff up, like totally
made up, dancing on bartops and like London is like
(08:38):
what it was just crazy? So so wait, wait, so
what happened the day after? So you you have this
interview he says you're his best friend. When's the next
time that you see him? Two weeks later, the next day,
I had to fly to North Carolina, where I was
moderating a huge symposium. There was like three thousand people
(08:59):
there and I was moderating two people on stage talking
about something about business, and literally the name jack Well
kept being mentioned, and every time they said jack Wells, literally,
I would like a thunder. I think we go through
my I was like what, and then I guess I
went back maybe a week. I talked to him every
single day after that, I mean literally he called me NonStop,
so we were an immediate communication constantly. And then two
(09:22):
days later he was going on squawk Box on CNBC
and he said, here are some of the questions that
are gonna ask me. What should I answer? He sent
them to me by email and I wrote funny answers
for all of them, like really funny answers. I thought
they were funny, Okay, whatever, But I set that back
and he like called me and he said, like I'm dying,
(09:42):
these are so funny. You're the funniest broad I ever met.
And we have same sense of humor, which we later
would spend twenty years torturing the children with our same
sense of humor, which we found to be hysterical, but
somehow never seemed to crack them up as much as
it cracked us up, and then I had to go
back three days later to take the photograph with him
for the interview. And so I went back to thirty
(10:05):
Rock and we were posing together for the interview for
the editor's letter back on with their magazines, and you
had an editor's letter in the picture of you and I.
We were posing for that, and I thought, he's still
looking at me that way. And we had had this
great we had been on the phone constantly, and then
after the photo shoot was over, he said to me,
(10:26):
what time are you done with work today? And I said, well,
I'm I'm flying back at five, and he said i'll
pick you up at six, and I was like what,
And he said, I'll come by your hotel up. I'll
take you all for dinner at six, and I thought.
I went back to my hotel and I called my
sister and I said, I don't think this is a
date because he's married. And he didn't say it was
(10:47):
a date, but I think he wants to take me
out to dinner, or maybe he just does this with everybody.
And I thought he would maybe not show up, or
he'd choup really late. And he showed up at five
of six, and he took me out to dinner and
then um we um. It was very funny because this
shows what a what a beginner I wasn't just how
the world worked. We went up to a restaurant and
(11:08):
then I kept on thinking the restaurants gonna We were
talking and talking and talking, talking, and I ken't think
the restaurants gonna close. The restaurant's gonna close. And everybody
was gone, and all the waiters were standing around just
watching this couple. It was maybe one o'clock in the morning,
but I wasn't tired. I was just so we just
couldn't stop talking. We had a lot to talk about.
(11:28):
And Jack stood up and he went to go talk
to like the major d and the next thing I know,
everyone was really smiling, and they kept the restaurant open
til five for us, and I guess he had fount
and paid them all off, and my goodness, and we talked.
It started to get light, and then at five we
walked into the lobby and he said, and I told him,
(11:52):
I said, just remember these three things about me, and
they were just sort of about my personal stuff and
just the baggage I had because of my divorce. And
he said, okay, and we said good night. There was
no clarity about what was going on. Um he had
said to me that he had a bad marriage, and
I said to him, I think you should fix your marriage,
and he said it's beyond fixing. And then we said
good night. Contrary to what I missaid and page six
(12:13):
said and all those other people said, we said good night,
and he went his way, and I went mine, honest
to God, and I went upstairs to my hotel room
and he went off. And I was sitting in my bed,
thinking what just happened. In my phone rang and he said,
here are the three things you told me I need
to remember about you, and and then and then it
just went from there. Wow, oh my god. I can't
(12:36):
get enough of this story. It's a great story. I
have to tell you. It's a great story. And now
for a quick break. So Susie, I know so Amy
is a mom of four young kids, all six and under,
and her life is so chaotic and I we've talked
about the fact that it's almost like you can't cease
(12:59):
to it when you're you're that you know, I have
three kids, she is four. You're so exhausted all the time,
and you're pulled in so many directions, and then to have,
you know, falling in love on top of it, and
then what happened at Harvard Business Review. Take us through
what it was like when you went back to work
and the kind of quote unquote scandal broke where the
(13:20):
interview subject and the interviewer fell that had fallen in love, right,
So I went back to work and at that point
it was still platonic with Jack, although it was obviously
very charged, okay, but it was still nothing had happened.
And um, and then I saw him again and he said, look,
I'm going to divorce my wife and marry you, basically.
(13:41):
And I said, how many women do you say this
to a week? And he said he looked at me
like with total hurt and surprise, and he said, I've
never said this to anyone before. So I, I mean,
it sounds crazy, but I already loved him. And I
went to my dview was written, and I went to
my boss is at HBr, and I said, we need
(14:01):
to pull the interview because I am entering into a
relationship with Jack Welch had not yet entered into one,
but was new. I was going to and Um and
they pulled the interview and suspended me the suspend video.
But you had done the ethical thing, Yes, yes, I
(14:22):
certainly argued that I had done the right thing. But
they kept on referring to it as the fling. And
I remember seeing an interview and saying to them, no, no,
you're it's not a fling. He's going to marry me.
And I remember them all laughing at me derictively, like
they were laughed. They burst out laughing, um. And I said, no,
he is going to marry me. I'm going to be
like his wife, and they just they were It was
(14:44):
so mocking. Um. And then this is when I wrote
about it in tent to Anten, And this is when
my one of my boss is famously said to me,
you will never work again. You will never work again.
And um. She was a woman who said it to me,
and I said, and I remember feeling sad, and I
went home and I remember after that meeting, this is
(15:04):
when I was officially fired, and she said to me,
will never work again. You're just disgrace and um. And
I went home and I was I remember cried to
Jack and he just laughed and said, what a joke,
you know, he got it, um, and uh, you know,
And then I remember when winning debut is number one
on the New York House best seller list, where it's
(15:25):
dayed a very long time. I remember him saying to me,
should we send a copy to her? Um? And it was, uh,
you know, but I was really hurt and devastated, and
I believed her. I mean, and it's it's funny you
look back and think that I did, But I did.
You've you've said since then? I read in an interview
where you said your biggest mistake was believing that the
(15:46):
people you worked with were your friends. Yeah, that was
a big learning How do you feel about that now?
And I mean, you're a career expert now, like, what
advice do you give to people on that front? Because I,
I will say, I'm with you. Yeah, well, I do
have real work friends. I do have true work friends.
I do, and I'm older and wiser now about who's
a friend and who's not a friend. I mean, I
(16:07):
definitely learned in that experience. I remember saying to Helen
raised at the time, I learned that I can trust um,
like I could probably trust ten people in this world,
And she said ten, like that number was too high,
and I think that it's you know, I I think
that it's a big mistake to think work as family
and family. You know, that work that the people at
work or your family, that happens a lot, and it's not.
(16:28):
That's not true. UM, and I do, but I'm incredibly
close with people I work with, and some of my
truly best friends are from work. But I think my
bigger mistake, if I could sort of refine what I said,
was that I thought people at work would be happy
for me. That was a gigantic mistake. They weren't happy
for me. They were mad at me. They were mad
(16:49):
that I had brought attention to HBr. Some of the
more mad that I was going to be leading UM
because their success had been because of me or dependent
on me, or um you know, or made more UM
secure because of me. UM. And you know, I thought
people would be like, genuinely happy that Susie, who had
(17:09):
been through a rough divorce and never had really had
a guy who had treated her in a way that
she had really needed and wanted, finally had a guy
that made her so happy. But my storybook romance with
Jack just actually made a huge number of people mad.
Um and for whatever reason. And I remember one of
the copy editors saying to me, um, if you think
(17:31):
that this is the right way to get back at Eric,
you know, you're really you know blahbla. I was like,
get that. That's my first husband, who who's a good
friend of mine now And I've said, I said, you
think this is about getting back at Eric? I mean
it was like everybody had their you know, like what
I you know, I mean, first of all, why would
I ever want to do these bothered my kids blah
(17:51):
blah blah. Anyway, everybody, So that was a big mistake
because it does bring up a really interesting thing about friendship,
which is that there are you know, as I've grown,
I realized that a true friend is someone who's not
only there for you and bad things happened, but they're
also genuinely happy for you when things happened. And those
are harder to find, ironically. I mean, I still have
(18:13):
friends from HBr, so I hear you because and they
were the people, say who were genuinely happy for me.
I think, you know, Jack was a lightning rod and
my sort of joining forces for him. For some of
the true business journalists on the staff, was like I had, um,
I had you know, linked up with the enemy, right,
(18:36):
you know that here was like, you know, we are
supposed to be reporting on these people, and what you're
like running off with one of them, and it was
it touched the you know, I believe Jack and I
spent a lot of time things about what we could
have done differently and would have done differently. But it also,
you know, it's funny, it sort of worked itself out
and here's one people sort of forgot about it and
then and then we sort of became a you know,
(18:58):
like an old married couple. You know, like we after
a while just sort of lost its like gasp factor.
I think that, you know, like big changes in our lives,
a lot of people often weigh in and it can
be hard, um, and then we move on into a
different place. I was curious about a different change in
your life. You built a career after you graduated from HBS,
and you were having four kids at the same time,
(19:20):
which I know and Sam has three, Like that is hard,
just even like having these children. Going through that process
is very hard, and you're building a career in the
middle of it, and a lot of our community, um,
contemplates divorced or are divorced? And you and you got
divorced during that period of your life like with little kids?
What was that like and how did you make that decision? Well?
(19:42):
It was terrible. I mean I got divorced because Eric,
who I had known since I was fourteen years old
and we went to high school together. Um, you know,
we were just not the right people for each other
and it was just not we couldn't make each other happy.
And I did it because I think, as is the
case with almost everyone who gets divorced, um, you either
get divorced, you were a part part of you is
(20:02):
just going to die. And I wanted to stay alive
and he so did he and um, it wasn't because
of work, and it wasn't because of the kids. I
mean we stayed together because of the kids, um, as
long as we could. It was because we were just
had different values. Um, and so it was brutal. But
I remember one time I I was at a dinner
(20:24):
party and the first time I was sitting next to it.
We said hello and he said, so tell me how
you know something like how long did it take for
you to get over your divorce? And it was took
me really back, and I remember I had the most
straightforward answer, which was that actually it was like I
had a knife taken out of my side. So actually
I felt better after the divorce, and I think Eric
did too, and that we were finally out of pain
(20:47):
where you had done, you know, done with this period
where we had. We we you know, we sincerely both
tried when you have four young children, and I also
had my children. I had four children in five years.
I think you beat me, but I I we tried
as hard as two people could I and you know,
we're very we see if we've seen each other now
at our kids weddings and you know, graduations, and he
and Jack had a um friendly relationship, and you know,
(21:11):
we will give each other that that we tried. We
just couldn't make it happen. So it was terrible, but
in a weird way, once the divorce was over, it
hurt less because there wasn't the daily friction. It was
just me and my kids, and there wasn't mommy and
daddy not able to agree on everything. It was just mommy.
(21:32):
How did you run your household when you were a
single mom with four little kids? Well, I had a
good nanny. I had a great nanny. I talked to
her yesterday. As a matter of fact, I'm still I
had to nanny's over the course of my kids entire upbringings.
And they are very close with both of them to
the stay they're both grown up women with one has
their own children and the other is a wonderful, dear
friend and stay close friends with my kids. Um, I
(21:54):
had a good help. You know, I would basically poorly.
You know, I did the best I could. I was
the I said to my kids the other day, Hey,
remember all those years where you never got enough of me?
Remember all those years. Well they've all been living with
me since the pandemic, and was like, I've made up
for it now, hown't I They see me day in
and day out of the face every minute. I finally
(22:14):
we finally made up for it. Um, And you know,
nobody saw me or got enough of me. I mean
I maybe would have done it. You know. I used
to say to them all the time, I'm not going
to apologize to you for working. I really want to
work and working makes me I got you know, I
used to say them all the time. They quote this
back to me someday you'll be gone, but I'll still
(22:35):
be here. And I didn't want to be one of
those women who the kids go and then the husband
leaves around the same time, because suddenly somebody work is
much more interesting and the woman is standing there saying like, Okay,
what do I do now? I'm fifty, you know, And
I didn't want to. And plus I just simply loved work.
It made me feel alive. I mean, it's I you know,
(22:56):
there's some women who are totally different. I mean, God
bless them. It's beautiful, you know. Um uh. And I
so I muddled through. That's the best description of it.
And I knew what I thought was important in terms
of being a mom, and I thought that the only
thing that mattered was character. That was the only thing.
And how did that pan out? What are they like today?
(23:17):
They're spectacular? Thank you, They're fabulous. I used to say
to them all the time. I just want to make
sure that, um that when I'm not around and you're
driving in the highway and you see a woman standing
by the side of the road with the flat tire
holding a baby on our hip, that you are the
person that pulls over. That was the shorthand for it,
and but it was it was always in the little details, like,
um My, one of my sons was a very fine wrestler.
(23:41):
This is a sport that I have a love hate
relationship with because wrestling opened a lot of doors for him,
but wrestling is a really cruel sport. When we would
talk about wrestling, we wouldn't talk about his training, and
we wouldn't talk about other teams and stuff like that.
He was the captain for the last two years, and
we talked about how he spoke to and handled and
interacted with the kids on the team who were not
(24:02):
doing well. So that's what it's sort of like, that's
what I look That was the way I parented. There's
a million different ways to be a mom, so many
different ways to be a mom, and so many of
them work. Okay, that's the way I did it. And
I have to say, like I wouldn't Yeah, I don't,
you know, it works out? Star with Amy, Share with Amy.
The ten ten ten philosophy that you have. It's a
(24:23):
funny tent. Tent ten is this idea that just keeps
on giving, right, It's it's so funny, Like somebody wrote
me about it today, So I wrote. I wrote an
article when I was a calumnist for the Oprah magazine,
and I wrote about this device that I had used,
especially in my very tough years when I, like was
constantly multitasking beyond my capacity, which was a good minute
by minute thing. And I used to use this shorthand
(24:45):
device for making hard decisions, which would be to think
about the decision ahead of me and think about the
consequences of my decision options in the immediate future ten minutes,
the foreseeable future ten months, and the the foreseable future,
which which would be ten years, and then I would
sort of sore through those consequences and sort of decide
which one UM mattered or aligned the best or the
(25:09):
worst with my values. And it was fantastically helpful because
it's slowed down my decision making. It made it much
more deliberate, and I actually became a better mom because
of tent and now my kids use it on me
all the time. But it's a good device because it
opens up what you're making decisions about and what you
care about, and it um you know, doesn't discount gut
in decision making, but it definitely UM adds other factors
(25:32):
and now for a quick break. I was gonna say, like,
what what does this part of your life look like?
With work and adult kids and you're a widow? Yes, like,
what is this chapter? So I've been doing some really
cool things. I think that I still have my job
at CNBC. I have a show called Get to Work
and it's makes its career videos. And a little more
(25:54):
than two years ago, I was at a family event,
um mainly jack side of the family and my grandson,
and one of them, Joe, came up to me right
he had just graduated from Williams and he said to me,
why isn't there a music streaming service for college students?
And I said to him, Joe, I'm sure there is,
and he goes, no, no, And I kept on blowing
(26:14):
him off, and finally to blow him off permanently, or
so I thought, I said him, can you just call
Marcus and run this idea by him. So Marcus is
my son who had major to music at Cornell and
then entered the music business, first to Twitter, and then
he went out to work at Blizzard Activision. And he
was a few years older than Joe. But they were
really good friends and they had lived together famously in
(26:37):
New York City for a few summers when they both
had music internships. And I say famously because Jack and
I worked in the apartment and so they were living
in the swiky apartment in New York and I don't
know if we'll ever get rid of all the beer cans,
but anyway, they were had great summers together living together.
And so I said, go bring this idea to Joe,
to to Marcus. Joe and to make a very long
story short, you know, sort of fast forward six weeks later,
and the two of them are sitting there in front
(26:58):
of me and Jack at our apartment donning a business
plan for a company called Quadio, which would be um
sort of a mixture of Spotify and Facebook book for
college students who are who are artists, who are musicians,
and they wanted to start this company. They had a
good business plan. Jack of course, his first question was
how do you monetize this thing? And Marcus was ready
for it, my son, because he knew Jack was the
(27:20):
only you know, it was his dad basically, and I
raised him, and you know, they had a great six
ways to monetize it. So Jack, I'll give him a
little money Susie to start this. I think it's fantastic.
They want to be entrepreneurs. You know, we give money
to entrepreneurs all the time as investments. Why not give
it to them? And um, they quit their jobs, Marcus
(27:42):
moved back to New York. They moved in together in Brooklyn,
of course, and um, they started this company. But Jack said,
you know, um, I'm gonna give them this money, but
I'm gonna make you chairman of the board. What do
you think about that? They need to grow up in
the room. And it has been the most wild, exciting
and joyable, heart stopping ride of my life because before
(28:03):
the pandemic we were up to sixty people. I had
just raised five million dollars and I was in the
office every single day, and they really needed my help
because they were two little bear cubs and a lot
of engineers, I mean with sixteen engineers at one point,
and and it was just deliciously fun. But the only
(28:23):
problem was that was that Jack was dying and he
urged me sincerely to continue working at Quadio. I would
come home from work and he would have this He
was not able to move around after a while, and
he would have this gigantic smile on his face and
his eyes would be really bright. It was in a
(28:45):
wheelchair at this point, and he would say, you know,
tell me all about it, tell me every detail. And
he was like living through this entrepreneurial thing. And it
was of unending joy to him that this was Marcus
who had adopted my son and Joe his grandson, and
it was like we had had a kid together almost
(29:05):
and we were about to do a literally at one
point two million dollar marketing blitz. As we dropped the app,
and I was laying in bed and I had the
TV on and I kept hearing about the pandemic, and
I was surfing the web, and I look had this
like sick feeling, like we're going to launch at one
point two million dollar and I had raised the money myself,
(29:26):
so I felt very personal about it. And I thought
to myself, we have to cancel the launch. And I
called my son, who is the CEO, and I said,
we have to cancel it. He goes, no, no, we
don't know, we don't And I thought, I said, what
am I asking advice of a twenty four year old
four He knows nothing. And I called to of the
board members David Zaslow, who's the CEO of Discovery, and
(29:49):
dongle Gal who's the CEO of Clayton Dubilear, and they
were stunned to hear from me, and I said, look,
you know, I believe me. I didn't want to be
making this phone call. I'm supposed to be laying in
my bed crying. I think I have to cancel the launch.
And here's my thinking. I mean, our demographic is colleges.
Colleges are going to close, you know. And they both said, SUSI,
(30:11):
you're absolutely right. And then I called the Marcus and
Joe and a few others together and I said, I'm
canceling the launch and they, to a person, they said, no,
you can't do that. It's going to be fine. And
I said, look, I'm the chairman of the board. This
is a chair level decision. We are canceling this launch.
They've all come around eating crow about four hundred times
since then, but you know, I cancel it. So I
(30:33):
went back to work much sooner than I should have.
And it did have big ramifications down the road because
I think I had a cute grieving for much longer
because I had to postpone it, and we had to
let some people go. We changed are we had to
pivot because a huge portion of our business model was
based on live events, and a live events died and
(30:55):
so anyway, I did that and then I was able
we can relate to that. Yeah, you have that a deriveter, right, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
coworking community, live events. It's been right, Yeah, it's been hard. Right,
But I've been basically an entrepreneur for two and a
half years. And you know, if somebody had told me
when I was younger what fun it was, my whole
career would have been different. Because there's such a huge
(31:17):
difference between being a business journalist who writes and talks
about business and being a person starting a company that
you really believe in. It's so much better. And what
has it been like for you socially and emotionally? I
mean it sounds like you're super busy, which probably is
in many ways of blessing. Yeah. Like socially, I'm like,
you know, I got my pod basically hang out with
(31:38):
my kids. My kids are all with me um and
with their spouses, with the exception of my son who
lives in Maine. His wife is this school teacher, and
they do not let the school teachers leave Maine work.
I mean, it's brilliant what they I mean, they're protecting
the children. They just don't let the teachers travel. We
usually do the lightning round at the end. But Amy,
there is one story that Susie has uh that I
(31:58):
really want her to share with you because I think
he will so appreciate it as a story that's always
stuck with me. I included it in my book, and
I wanted you to share the Hawaii speaking engagement story,
such a frightening story so you will relate to this
as a mother with children. Is that I When I
was working at HBr, I got asked to give a
(32:18):
speech to a group of insurance executives in Hawaiian, like
some huge convention like five thousand or three thousand or
five thousand people woman, and so I said yes, And
then I thought, I'll bring two of my kids, because
you know what better way to sort of, you know,
kill two birds with one stone. And so um I
told them I'm gonna bring two of my kids. And
they were like, you really can't do that, this is
(32:38):
a work event. And I was like, don't worry. They're
like little adults will never notice through there. And they
were very they very much objected to this idea, and
but I was determined. And the day of the speech
to where house the children, I had put them in
a hula dancing class, and I went up on the
stage and started to give the speech. And I mean,
just people are zoning out. I mean when I think
(32:59):
about the speeches I give now, because I've had a
lot of experience, and the speech I was giving that night,
that that morning was just you know, I would have
fallen asleep if I hadn't been giving it. And as
I'm getting towards the end of the speech, I looked
out at the audience and at the way back it
was all glass doors, and I see these two little
figures pressed up against the door in hula skirts and
(33:20):
like they're screaming mommy. At the time, I can't hear them,
but I can see them. And it's sort of like
that scene from the Graduate, you know, where he's screaming
and he's screaming, and I see them screaming, and I
know that they're going to do a jail break, and
they're going to break into the speech. And I wrap
it up. I said, hey, look and that is the
history of management. And I like basically like finish up
(33:42):
the speech and at as I and wrapping it up.
They burst in and they run down the center aisle
towards me. They're like hugging my legs, and people are
walking out of the um conveying really disgusted. I mean,
and I just I deserved all their scorn because I
(34:04):
was ridiculous. What was I thinking. I was thinking I
was going to be the one woman who could do
it all all the same time. No one would have
done it previously and no one has done since, but
I was going to be that one woman. I was
to be her. Oh my god, I was just dying laughing,
I have to tell you. And in a closet and
my little kids were outside and they came inside with
(34:24):
my husband, and my children were like trying to break
open the door into the closet and like mommy, mommy, mommy,
And I'm like, how do I make this stop right now?
So embarrassing that you do the things that you do.
I mean, it was like I remember, like there was
a certain age where I would go on the treadmill
to run and say I remembers just I'm sort of
like gooddicted running in it. And I would go on
(34:47):
the treadmill because to leave the house would be too much,
because God forbid, I should be a mile or two
from the house and they would need me. So I
would run on the treadmill and the four of them
would sit at the front of the treadmill and stare
at me while I was running. That's the whole metaphor
for for working being a working mother, the children staring
at you on the road on the treadmill, waiting for
you to get off the treadmill, like oh yeah. I
feel like after once I had the third child, there
(35:07):
was no going to the gym. Like that for me
was like the breaking point of like you can actually
leave the house to go exercise. You have to write
somewhere in the home, so I gotta tread done too.
All right, it's time for Lulu. Are you there? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah,
I'm here. I'm here. I'm just listening. I'm admiring your
intelligence and and and just I kind of googled you too,
you know, um, so I can I can prepare myself,
(35:29):
but I couldn't prepare myself because a lot of stories
you were telling it was I was just captivated about
and um and it brought me back to one of
our first guests, Um, Abby and uh sorry Glenn and Glen,
and they talked about how they made each other and
it was just so beautiful. You know, Yes, it is
(35:49):
so similar. It's literally it's the only other time I've
ever heard that kind of lightning story is Abbey wand
back in Glenn and Doyle. It is the only other
day you know, and it and it it brought me
into a moment of how how when when two souls meet,
how is just you know, it's like you can't you
can't create this. It's just it's like some beautiful synergy
(36:11):
that just happens, you know. And you talked about how
he's how he walked away, he came back and I
a greased him, you know, I'm like, I'm like, wow,
he knew that he was gonna marry you, you know,
And it's so beautiful to have to have people you know,
do stuff like that, you know. So I mean, I mean,
and that's like the beautiful side of him. So what
(36:33):
I want to know, Jack does some things that you know,
obviously he's not hearing what guy rest his soul. But
he must have does done some things that really kind
of got under your skin, you know. But at the
same time, when you're like, you know, in the grocery story,
you're thinking about like what a man? You know? Can
you talk about some stuff like that? What an interesting question? Um.
(36:54):
I will tell you that I was older and wiser
when I married Jack. I mean it was an I
was forty and when I married him and about and
I didn't want to change a thing about him, I um,
And I knew going in there were going to be
things about him that that could that in a perfect
(37:17):
world would have been different, right, And I didn't. I
made this sort of psychological decision just not to care.
So there were things that could have driven me out
of my mind. Like, for instance, Jack could not make
himself a couple of orange juice. I mean, he just
couldn't operate in the kitchen. He just couldn't. He couldn't
like make a peanut butter cracker, he just couldn't. And
(37:39):
I just it could have driven me crazy because he
was you know, I had to think about his every meal, right,
like who was beating it to him? Or was it
going to be me? And I just decided I don't care,
because there's so many things about him that are so
more important and so spectacular. And it used to drive
my kids a little bit crazy because they didn't they weren't.
(38:00):
They loved him very very much, and you actually couldn't
they were That was a beautiful, beautiful thing. But they
were obviously more aware of all parents flaws than than
I was. And they would say, like, you know, does
he ever do anything wrong? And I would say to
them not in my eyes, because I bought, I bought
the whole package. I just loved him exactly as he
(38:20):
was and oddly, and it helped me in good stead,
you know, because as he got sicker and sicker, that
attitude about just taking him exactly as he was came
in very handy and to just never feel like he
was anything less than exactly what I wanted and needed.
And people say, don't you miss going out? Don't you
miss this? Did you miss that? And I would say, no,
(38:42):
I don't. I don't miss it. I had it, you know, like,
don't you miss Jack? And I went to like sixty
four countries together. We used to travel constantly. Don't you
miss it? And I would like, like like well we did it, um,
and now we're doing something as different. Now now is
my time to take care of him. And so if
he did things that drove me crazy, I I didn't care.
(39:04):
And he was the same way back. He was the
exact same way back. He never got annoyed with anything
I did. It was really great. It's great if you
can possibly find a person who does not get annoyed
with anything you do, carry them. That's okay. I'm crying
just so you know. Sorry, that was beautiful. I wish
(39:26):
I wish more human beings, even myself, can adopt that mindset. Well,
it's not too late, go ahead and adopt it today.
It isn't. But I'll tell you something. You hit the
right word, because it is a mindset I was. I
was not looking for his flaws and he was a
(39:46):
strong personality, and it was just everything he did was
okay to me. Um. And if he did something that
was like, oh I wish that had been slightly different,
I just round the most tender way to talk to
him about it, and it worked and vice versa. We
were I mean, I'm telling you it was I realized
(40:10):
that it's it sounds like it's a made up thing,
but it was real and it and it we were
I was just super lucky. Thank you, Thank you with that, Susie,
thank you so much. I adore you and you were
amazing and I'm just so glad that you joined us.
Thank you for bringing me back to the old days.
I mean, I think a lot of what happened is
that I dwell and you know, you get caught up
(40:31):
in what happened in the last couple of years. To
remember those early you know, that early decade or fifteen
years is really really enjoyful for me to thank you. Wow,
I just can't get enough of Susie wound. I can't either.
I could have talked to her forever. And I definitely
I think this is the first time I've cried in
(40:53):
an interview, and definitely multiple time. It's not no, it's
not Amy. You've cried before. Fine, I cry a lot,
but whatever, I multiple times on this one. I can't
help it. I can't remember what kind of Bernice will
you credit in Vernice armor? In Ernice flya girl armor.
You did cry, and you made fun of me for
not crying because I'm usually the crier among us. But anyway,
(41:14):
I'm so glad she touched you, because I just feel
so compelled by her. It's not just the way she
talks or her story, but it's also just the way
she carries herself is so inspiring. It is so inspiring.
I think if there's one takeaway, I think for all
of us, it's this um. It came towards the end
(41:34):
of our discussion with Susie, but I think it's relevant
to all of us. During COVID, people would ask her
towards the end of Jack's life, she missed traveling, she
missed goingance restaurants, and she said, we did that. You know,
I had that part and now we're in a different part.
And I think if we can all adopt that mindset,
we're all going through our own enormous changes, and so
(41:55):
many people are dealing with a lot of grief, Like Susie,
There's just there's a lot there. H Thanks for listening
to What's Her Story with Sam and Amy. We would
so appreciate if you would leave a review wherever you
get your podcasts, and of course, connect with us on
social media at What's Her Story of podcast. What's Her
Story with Sam and Amy is powered by my company,
(42:16):
The Riveter at the Riveter dot c O in Sam's company,
park Place Payments at park place payments dot com. Thanks
to our producer Laurel Moglin, our podcast associate Emma Hard,
and our male perspective lue Bert's One
Hi, I'm Sam Edis and I'm Amy Nelson. Welcome to
What's Her Story with Sam and Amy. This is a
show about the world's most remarkable women. They're professional and
personal journeys. Together, we'll hear from gold medalists, best selling authors,
and leaders of the world's most iconic brands. So Amy, Today,
we are sitting down with one of my favorite people,
(00:24):
Susie Welch. I've known Susie for a number of years.
I interviewed her years ago and kind of really just
clicked with her immediately and amazingly, this is her first
interview since her iconic husband, Jack Welch, passed away in March,
and I am really honored to be talking to her today.
(00:47):
I was especially excited for you to meter because she's
a mom of four and she's so relatable. I mean,
I am as excited as you for this conversation. Even
though I haven't met Susie, I follow her on Instagram
and she says some really kind of profound things about
how she's how she's gone through her own life from
being a single moment for to this amazing love story
(01:09):
with Jack Welch and all through it, building this remarkable
career of her own, from being the editor of the
Harvard Business Review to best selling books and so there's
I'm just really excited. So let's talk to Susie. So,
I'm sure it's been grueling two thousand twenty. Did you
feel prepared for what happened in March? We were very prepared.
(01:34):
I have to say that. You know, I have friends
who have lost their husbands, and some of them have
had to deal with both the grief of losing your
partner but also the shock. And one thing that we
did not have was shock. We were prepared. We knew
about two years beforehand that we probably didn't have two
years and then we UM. A year beforehand, Jack was
(01:58):
in the hospital hit kidney disease and using hospital and
one and we the results of his tests were not
going in the right direction. And UM at the time
our son was engaged, and one of the doctors, UM said,
I think you better, UM see if you can expedite
that wedding knowing what was impending was UM. You know,
it was in many ways his sort of finest hours,
(02:22):
because he was unbelievably good in preparing and UM talking
to me about my next life and making sure that
he said his goodbyes to everybody thoroughly and um, and
so yeah, we were prepared and I actually was able
to grieve with Jack, which is I've talked to other
people who have gone through it, and that's a blessing
in a way, is that we were able to talk
of you know, a lot, you know, all the things
(02:43):
I would have wanted to say to him after he died.
I was able to see him while he was still living.
So what was Jack able to plan the memorial with you? Um? Yes, two, yes, somewhat.
We had one strong differing opinion and that he wanted
me to deliver the eulogy. And we thought about it,
(03:04):
you know, it really fight. But he was like, you
gotta do it, Susy. Nobody can do it but you.
And I was like, Jack, it's highly irregular for the
wife to deliver the eulogy. Just doesn't happen. And uh,
he was like, no, you gotta do it, you gotta
do it. And I said him, I just can't do it.
And I told him I would like Ken and Mike
to do the eulogies and he was like, come on,
and you know, I finally I finally said him, fine,
(03:26):
I'll do it. I know. I thought, well, I was
never gonna do it. Was wasn't gonna do yell at
me when we see each other again. But he couldn't.
But I couldn't find him anymore, and it meant a
huge amount to him. And we had a three day
wake up where people came to our home and I
was able to say everything I need to say about
him to people close to him. So one of the
most powerful stories I've ever heard was years ago when
(03:50):
I had the opportunity to interview you on Obsessed TV,
which was another lifetime ago. You told the story of
how you met Jack Welch and how it changed your life,
and I would love for you to share that story today.
It was twenty years ago. So I was the editor
of the Harvard Business Review and Jack had retired, just
(04:13):
retired from being the CEO of g and that was
like sort of the interview get of the of my career. UM.
And he didn't want to talk to me. UM. He
thought that HBr, the Harvard Business Review, was a sort
of fat headed intellectual, uh you know, academic journal. He
wanted no part of. He didn't like UM academics, period academics,
and uh, finally a mutual friend professor at Michigan Business School,
(04:37):
persuaded him to meet me for an interview, and I, um,
I went to thirty Rock and what up in that elevator?
And uh never nothing was ever the same again because
we met and we just had incredible, um, just an
incredible connection. And I mean you could make the case
even though it sounds incredibly corny and hopey and unbelievable,
(04:59):
and um. As an aside, I'll tell you that I'm
a realist. Okay, So I say that because I do
not believe in loved first sight. I do not believe
lightning strikes. I do not believe in all that stuff.
I have a woman who was divorced with four young children.
I didn't believe in any of that stuff. And yet
it happened to me. Um, and we did fall in
love and and then we sort of blew up our lives.
(05:19):
I had less of a life to blow up because
I was divorced, and um, but Jack was still married
at the time, not happily obviously, and we I got fired.
And okay, but let's not class over the right exactly.
That's so funny. That's true. You beat social media, so
that back then you were a superstar. You were Susie
(05:42):
wet Low for editor and s Harvard Business Reviews. Off
to get there, and you had four young kids and
we're a single mom divorced. You walk into that room,
what what went through your mind? I mean at I was.
I was very excited to me to be doing this interview,
(06:05):
which was going to be a huge gift for me
and I you know, one of the first things I
thought was, why is he looking at me that way?
Because his eyes were like cutting a hole. Now this
became a very familiar look because then he spent the
next twenty years looking at me that way, with these
eyes just cutting right through me. But I was like,
why is he looking at me that way? And I remember,
like after the interview, actually thinking to myself, Um, no,
(06:26):
wonder he's so famous because he looks at people that way.
But I found out later that he did actually only
really looked at me that way, and he liked me
a lot. And he said to me at the end
of that interview, among many other things that were said
in those a couple of hours, to your best friend.
And it was true. We were best friends right away.
We just really I mean I have to say, we
just really really really dug each other. Um, and it
(06:47):
was just you know, uh um, it was just we
just have been waiting for each other our whole lives.
I mean, I don't know any other way to put it.
It's so corny and geeky, but I mean it came.
You know, you have thought, you know, and there were
plenty of people who thought for the first couple of years,
well this will fizzle out, and you know, this is
a flash of the pan. But you know, I loved
(07:08):
him till his dying breath. It was me and the
kids had just gone to bed, and it was me
and our our most beloved dog. So it was what
we thought we had we did have and um, and
we would have had it for another twenty years, but
we Um. Nobody gets that lucky. I guess. Well, I
loved your love story then, and it brings me into
tears again now. It really is amazing. Thank you. I
(07:32):
was a lucky, lucky person. What was it like dealing
with the blowback? I mean, because you were that it
was massively successful woman right well in my in my field, okay,
I mean it's not like I was, you know, like
you know, but I in my field, which was business journalism,
I was doing quite well. It was terrible. I mean
it was like people said, the shittiest thing can I
(07:55):
sware on this podcast? I could beat me? People said,
you know I was, you know, I'm just an ultimate boar,
Like I don't drink and I really don't drink. I don't.
The first class of one I had was with Jack
because my dad had not been great with alcohol, and
so I was, I don't drink, I don't. I didn't
party it four young children. I like worked and went
(08:16):
home and like cooked poorly for my children, and and
the stuff people said was like I remember when my
nanny said to me, Wow, you had a really amazing life.
Too bad you weren't there because just I was my
first experience of people just making stuff up, like totally
made up, dancing on bartops and like London is like
(08:38):
what it was just crazy? So so wait, wait, so
what happened the day after? So you you have this
interview he says you're his best friend. When's the next
time that you see him? Two weeks later, the next day,
I had to fly to North Carolina, where I was
moderating a huge symposium. There was like three thousand people
(08:59):
there and I was moderating two people on stage talking
about something about business, and literally the name jack Well
kept being mentioned, and every time they said jack Wells, literally,
I would like a thunder. I think we go through
my I was like what, and then I guess I
went back maybe a week. I talked to him every
single day after that, I mean literally he called me NonStop,
so we were an immediate communication constantly. And then two
(09:22):
days later he was going on squawk Box on CNBC
and he said, here are some of the questions that
are gonna ask me. What should I answer? He sent
them to me by email and I wrote funny answers
for all of them, like really funny answers. I thought
they were funny, Okay, whatever, But I set that back
and he like called me and he said, like I'm dying,
(09:42):
these are so funny. You're the funniest broad I ever met.
And we have same sense of humor, which we later
would spend twenty years torturing the children with our same
sense of humor, which we found to be hysterical, but
somehow never seemed to crack them up as much as
it cracked us up, and then I had to go
back three days later to take the photograph with him
for the interview. And so I went back to thirty
(10:05):
Rock and we were posing together for the interview for
the editor's letter back on with their magazines, and you
had an editor's letter in the picture of you and I.
We were posing for that, and I thought, he's still
looking at me that way. And we had had this
great we had been on the phone constantly, and then
after the photo shoot was over, he said to me,
(10:26):
what time are you done with work today? And I said, well,
I'm I'm flying back at five, and he said i'll
pick you up at six, and I was like what,
And he said, I'll come by your hotel up. I'll
take you all for dinner at six, and I thought.
I went back to my hotel and I called my
sister and I said, I don't think this is a
date because he's married. And he didn't say it was
(10:47):
a date, but I think he wants to take me
out to dinner, or maybe he just does this with everybody.
And I thought he would maybe not show up, or
he'd choup really late. And he showed up at five
of six, and he took me out to dinner and
then um we um. It was very funny because this
shows what a what a beginner I wasn't just how
the world worked. We went up to a restaurant and
(11:08):
then I kept on thinking the restaurants gonna We were
talking and talking and talking, talking, and I ken't think
the restaurants gonna close. The restaurant's gonna close. And everybody
was gone, and all the waiters were standing around just
watching this couple. It was maybe one o'clock in the morning,
but I wasn't tired. I was just so we just
couldn't stop talking. We had a lot to talk about.
(11:28):
And Jack stood up and he went to go talk
to like the major d and the next thing I know,
everyone was really smiling, and they kept the restaurant open
til five for us, and I guess he had fount
and paid them all off, and my goodness, and we talked.
It started to get light, and then at five we
walked into the lobby and he said, and I told him,
(11:52):
I said, just remember these three things about me, and
they were just sort of about my personal stuff and
just the baggage I had because of my divorce. And
he said, okay, and we said good night. There was
no clarity about what was going on. Um he had
said to me that he had a bad marriage, and
I said to him, I think you should fix your marriage,
and he said it's beyond fixing. And then we said
good night. Contrary to what I missaid and page six
(12:13):
said and all those other people said, we said good night,
and he went his way, and I went mine, honest
to God, and I went upstairs to my hotel room
and he went off. And I was sitting in my bed,
thinking what just happened. In my phone rang and he said,
here are the three things you told me I need
to remember about you, and and then and then it
just went from there. Wow, oh my god. I can't
(12:36):
get enough of this story. It's a great story. I
have to tell you. It's a great story. And now
for a quick break. So Susie, I know so Amy
is a mom of four young kids, all six and under,
and her life is so chaotic and I we've talked
about the fact that it's almost like you can't cease
(12:59):
to it when you're you're that you know, I have
three kids, she is four. You're so exhausted all the time,
and you're pulled in so many directions, and then to have,
you know, falling in love on top of it, and
then what happened at Harvard Business Review. Take us through
what it was like when you went back to work
and the kind of quote unquote scandal broke where the
(13:20):
interview subject and the interviewer fell that had fallen in love, right,
So I went back to work and at that point
it was still platonic with Jack, although it was obviously
very charged, okay, but it was still nothing had happened.
And um, and then I saw him again and he said, look,
I'm going to divorce my wife and marry you, basically.
(13:41):
And I said, how many women do you say this
to a week? And he said he looked at me
like with total hurt and surprise, and he said, I've
never said this to anyone before. So I, I mean,
it sounds crazy, but I already loved him. And I
went to my dview was written, and I went to
my boss is at HBr, and I said, we need
(14:01):
to pull the interview because I am entering into a
relationship with Jack Welch had not yet entered into one,
but was new. I was going to and Um and
they pulled the interview and suspended me the suspend video.
But you had done the ethical thing, Yes, yes, I
(14:22):
certainly argued that I had done the right thing. But
they kept on referring to it as the fling. And
I remember seeing an interview and saying to them, no, no,
you're it's not a fling. He's going to marry me.
And I remember them all laughing at me derictively, like
they were laughed. They burst out laughing, um. And I said, no,
he is going to marry me. I'm going to be
like his wife, and they just they were It was
(14:44):
so mocking. Um. And then this is when I wrote
about it in tent to Anten, And this is when
my one of my boss is famously said to me,
you will never work again. You will never work again.
And um. She was a woman who said it to me,
and I said, and I remember feeling sad, and I
went home and I remember after that meeting, this is
(15:04):
when I was officially fired, and she said to me,
will never work again. You're just disgrace and um. And
I went home and I was I remember cried to
Jack and he just laughed and said, what a joke,
you know, he got it, um, and uh, you know,
And then I remember when winning debut is number one
on the New York House best seller list, where it's
(15:25):
dayed a very long time. I remember him saying to me,
should we send a copy to her? Um? And it was, uh,
you know, but I was really hurt and devastated, and
I believed her. I mean, and it's it's funny you
look back and think that I did, But I did.
You've you've said since then? I read in an interview
where you said your biggest mistake was believing that the
(15:46):
people you worked with were your friends. Yeah, that was
a big learning How do you feel about that now?
And I mean, you're a career expert now, like, what
advice do you give to people on that front? Because I,
I will say, I'm with you. Yeah, well, I do
have real work friends. I do have true work friends.
I do, and I'm older and wiser now about who's
a friend and who's not a friend. I mean, I
(16:07):
definitely learned in that experience. I remember saying to Helen
raised at the time, I learned that I can trust um,
like I could probably trust ten people in this world,
And she said ten, like that number was too high,
and I think that it's you know, I I think
that it's a big mistake to think work as family
and family. You know, that work that the people at
work or your family, that happens a lot, and it's not.
(16:28):
That's not true. UM, and I do, but I'm incredibly
close with people I work with, and some of my
truly best friends are from work. But I think my
bigger mistake, if I could sort of refine what I said,
was that I thought people at work would be happy
for me. That was a gigantic mistake. They weren't happy
for me. They were mad at me. They were mad
(16:49):
that I had brought attention to HBr. Some of the
more mad that I was going to be leading UM
because their success had been because of me or dependent
on me, or um you know, or made more UM
secure because of me. UM. And you know, I thought
people would be like, genuinely happy that Susie, who had
(17:09):
been through a rough divorce and never had really had
a guy who had treated her in a way that
she had really needed and wanted, finally had a guy
that made her so happy. But my storybook romance with
Jack just actually made a huge number of people mad.
Um and for whatever reason. And I remember one of
the copy editors saying to me, um, if you think
(17:31):
that this is the right way to get back at Eric,
you know, you're really you know blahbla. I was like,
get that. That's my first husband, who who's a good
friend of mine now And I've said, I said, you
think this is about getting back at Eric? I mean
it was like everybody had their you know, like what
I you know, I mean, first of all, why would
I ever want to do these bothered my kids blah
(17:51):
blah blah. Anyway, everybody, So that was a big mistake
because it does bring up a really interesting thing about friendship,
which is that there are you know, as I've grown,
I realized that a true friend is someone who's not
only there for you and bad things happened, but they're
also genuinely happy for you when things happened. And those
are harder to find, ironically. I mean, I still have
(18:13):
friends from HBr, so I hear you because and they
were the people, say who were genuinely happy for me.
I think, you know, Jack was a lightning rod and
my sort of joining forces for him. For some of
the true business journalists on the staff, was like I had, um,
I had you know, linked up with the enemy, right,
(18:36):
you know that here was like, you know, we are
supposed to be reporting on these people, and what you're
like running off with one of them, and it was
it touched the you know, I believe Jack and I
spent a lot of time things about what we could
have done differently and would have done differently. But it also,
you know, it's funny, it sort of worked itself out
and here's one people sort of forgot about it and
then and then we sort of became a you know,
(18:58):
like an old married couple. You know, like we after
a while just sort of lost its like gasp factor.
I think that, you know, like big changes in our lives,
a lot of people often weigh in and it can
be hard, um, and then we move on into a
different place. I was curious about a different change in
your life. You built a career after you graduated from HBS,
and you were having four kids at the same time,
(19:20):
which I know and Sam has three, Like that is hard,
just even like having these children. Going through that process
is very hard, and you're building a career in the
middle of it, and a lot of our community, um,
contemplates divorced or are divorced? And you and you got
divorced during that period of your life like with little kids?
What was that like and how did you make that decision? Well?
(19:42):
It was terrible. I mean I got divorced because Eric,
who I had known since I was fourteen years old
and we went to high school together. Um, you know,
we were just not the right people for each other
and it was just not we couldn't make each other happy.
And I did it because I think, as is the
case with almost everyone who gets divorced, um, you either
get divorced, you were a part part of you is
(20:02):
just going to die. And I wanted to stay alive
and he so did he and um, it wasn't because
of work, and it wasn't because of the kids. I
mean we stayed together because of the kids, um, as
long as we could. It was because we were just
had different values. Um, and so it was brutal. But
I remember one time I I was at a dinner
(20:24):
party and the first time I was sitting next to it.
We said hello and he said, so tell me how
you know something like how long did it take for
you to get over your divorce? And it was took
me really back, and I remember I had the most
straightforward answer, which was that actually it was like I
had a knife taken out of my side. So actually
I felt better after the divorce, and I think Eric
did too, and that we were finally out of pain
(20:47):
where you had done, you know, done with this period
where we had. We we you know, we sincerely both
tried when you have four young children, and I also
had my children. I had four children in five years.
I think you beat me, but I I we tried
as hard as two people could I and you know,
we're very we see if we've seen each other now
at our kids weddings and you know, graduations, and he
and Jack had a um friendly relationship, and you know,
(21:11):
we will give each other that that we tried. We
just couldn't make it happen. So it was terrible, but
in a weird way, once the divorce was over, it
hurt less because there wasn't the daily friction. It was
just me and my kids, and there wasn't mommy and
daddy not able to agree on everything. It was just mommy.
(21:32):
How did you run your household when you were a
single mom with four little kids? Well, I had a
good nanny. I had a great nanny. I talked to
her yesterday. As a matter of fact, I'm still I
had to nanny's over the course of my kids entire upbringings.
And they are very close with both of them to
the stay they're both grown up women with one has
their own children and the other is a wonderful, dear
friend and stay close friends with my kids. Um, I
(21:54):
had a good help. You know, I would basically poorly.
You know, I did the best I could. I was
the I said to my kids the other day, Hey,
remember all those years where you never got enough of me?
Remember all those years. Well they've all been living with
me since the pandemic, and was like, I've made up
for it now, hown't I They see me day in
and day out of the face every minute. I finally
(22:14):
we finally made up for it. Um, And you know,
nobody saw me or got enough of me. I mean
I maybe would have done it. You know. I used
to say to them all the time, I'm not going
to apologize to you for working. I really want to
work and working makes me I got you know, I
used to say them all the time. They quote this
back to me someday you'll be gone, but I'll still
(22:35):
be here. And I didn't want to be one of
those women who the kids go and then the husband
leaves around the same time, because suddenly somebody work is
much more interesting and the woman is standing there saying like, Okay,
what do I do now? I'm fifty, you know, And
I didn't want to. And plus I just simply loved work.
It made me feel alive. I mean, it's I you know,
(22:56):
there's some women who are totally different. I mean, God
bless them. It's beautiful, you know. Um uh. And I
so I muddled through. That's the best description of it.
And I knew what I thought was important in terms
of being a mom, and I thought that the only
thing that mattered was character. That was the only thing.
And how did that pan out? What are they like today?
(23:17):
They're spectacular? Thank you, They're fabulous. I used to say
to them all the time. I just want to make
sure that, um that when I'm not around and you're
driving in the highway and you see a woman standing
by the side of the road with the flat tire
holding a baby on our hip, that you are the
person that pulls over. That was the shorthand for it,
and but it was it was always in the little details, like,
um My, one of my sons was a very fine wrestler.
(23:41):
This is a sport that I have a love hate
relationship with because wrestling opened a lot of doors for him,
but wrestling is a really cruel sport. When we would
talk about wrestling, we wouldn't talk about his training, and
we wouldn't talk about other teams and stuff like that.
He was the captain for the last two years, and
we talked about how he spoke to and handled and
interacted with the kids on the team who were not
(24:02):
doing well. So that's what it's sort of like, that's
what I look That was the way I parented. There's
a million different ways to be a mom, so many
different ways to be a mom, and so many of
them work. Okay, that's the way I did it. And
I have to say, like I wouldn't Yeah, I don't,
you know, it works out? Star with Amy, Share with Amy.
The ten ten ten philosophy that you have. It's a
(24:23):
funny tent. Tent ten is this idea that just keeps
on giving, right, It's it's so funny, Like somebody wrote
me about it today, So I wrote. I wrote an
article when I was a calumnist for the Oprah magazine,
and I wrote about this device that I had used,
especially in my very tough years when I, like was
constantly multitasking beyond my capacity, which was a good minute
by minute thing. And I used to use this shorthand
(24:45):
device for making hard decisions, which would be to think
about the decision ahead of me and think about the
consequences of my decision options in the immediate future ten minutes,
the foreseeable future ten months, and the the foreseable future,
which which would be ten years, and then I would
sort of sore through those consequences and sort of decide
which one UM mattered or aligned the best or the
(25:09):
worst with my values. And it was fantastically helpful because
it's slowed down my decision making. It made it much
more deliberate, and I actually became a better mom because
of tent and now my kids use it on me
all the time. But it's a good device because it
opens up what you're making decisions about and what you
care about, and it um you know, doesn't discount gut
in decision making, but it definitely UM adds other factors
(25:32):
and now for a quick break. I was gonna say, like,
what what does this part of your life look like?
With work and adult kids and you're a widow? Yes, like,
what is this chapter? So I've been doing some really
cool things. I think that I still have my job
at CNBC. I have a show called Get to Work
and it's makes its career videos. And a little more
(25:54):
than two years ago, I was at a family event,
um mainly jack side of the family and my grandson,
and one of them, Joe, came up to me right
he had just graduated from Williams and he said to me,
why isn't there a music streaming service for college students?
And I said to him, Joe, I'm sure there is,
and he goes, no, no, And I kept on blowing
(26:14):
him off, and finally to blow him off permanently, or
so I thought, I said him, can you just call
Marcus and run this idea by him. So Marcus is
my son who had major to music at Cornell and
then entered the music business, first to Twitter, and then
he went out to work at Blizzard Activision. And he
was a few years older than Joe. But they were
really good friends and they had lived together famously in
(26:37):
New York City for a few summers when they both
had music internships. And I say famously because Jack and
I worked in the apartment and so they were living
in the swiky apartment in New York and I don't
know if we'll ever get rid of all the beer cans,
but anyway, they were had great summers together living together.
And so I said, go bring this idea to Joe,
to to Marcus. Joe and to make a very long
story short, you know, sort of fast forward six weeks later,
and the two of them are sitting there in front
(26:58):
of me and Jack at our apartment donning a business
plan for a company called Quadio, which would be um
sort of a mixture of Spotify and Facebook book for
college students who are who are artists, who are musicians,
and they wanted to start this company. They had a
good business plan. Jack of course, his first question was
how do you monetize this thing? And Marcus was ready
for it, my son, because he knew Jack was the
(27:20):
only you know, it was his dad basically, and I
raised him, and you know, they had a great six
ways to monetize it. So Jack, I'll give him a
little money Susie to start this. I think it's fantastic.
They want to be entrepreneurs. You know, we give money
to entrepreneurs all the time as investments. Why not give
it to them? And um, they quit their jobs, Marcus
(27:42):
moved back to New York. They moved in together in Brooklyn,
of course, and um, they started this company. But Jack said,
you know, um, I'm gonna give them this money, but
I'm gonna make you chairman of the board. What do
you think about that? They need to grow up in
the room. And it has been the most wild, exciting
and joyable, heart stopping ride of my life because before
(28:03):
the pandemic we were up to sixty people. I had
just raised five million dollars and I was in the
office every single day, and they really needed my help
because they were two little bear cubs and a lot
of engineers, I mean with sixteen engineers at one point,
and and it was just deliciously fun. But the only
(28:23):
problem was that was that Jack was dying and he
urged me sincerely to continue working at Quadio. I would
come home from work and he would have this He
was not able to move around after a while, and
he would have this gigantic smile on his face and
his eyes would be really bright. It was in a
(28:45):
wheelchair at this point, and he would say, you know,
tell me all about it, tell me every detail. And
he was like living through this entrepreneurial thing. And it
was of unending joy to him that this was Marcus
who had adopted my son and Joe his grandson, and
it was like we had had a kid together almost
(29:05):
and we were about to do a literally at one
point two million dollar marketing blitz. As we dropped the app,
and I was laying in bed and I had the
TV on and I kept hearing about the pandemic, and
I was surfing the web, and I look had this
like sick feeling, like we're going to launch at one
point two million dollar and I had raised the money myself,
(29:26):
so I felt very personal about it. And I thought
to myself, we have to cancel the launch. And I
called my son, who is the CEO, and I said,
we have to cancel it. He goes, no, no, we
don't know, we don't And I thought, I said, what
am I asking advice of a twenty four year old
four He knows nothing. And I called to of the
board members David Zaslow, who's the CEO of Discovery, and
(29:49):
dongle Gal who's the CEO of Clayton Dubilear, and they
were stunned to hear from me, and I said, look,
you know, I believe me. I didn't want to be
making this phone call. I'm supposed to be laying in
my bed crying. I think I have to cancel the launch.
And here's my thinking. I mean, our demographic is colleges.
Colleges are going to close, you know. And they both said, SUSI,
(30:11):
you're absolutely right. And then I called the Marcus and
Joe and a few others together and I said, I'm
canceling the launch and they, to a person, they said, no,
you can't do that. It's going to be fine. And
I said, look, I'm the chairman of the board. This
is a chair level decision. We are canceling this launch.
They've all come around eating crow about four hundred times
since then, but you know, I cancel it. So I
(30:33):
went back to work much sooner than I should have.
And it did have big ramifications down the road because
I think I had a cute grieving for much longer
because I had to postpone it, and we had to
let some people go. We changed are we had to
pivot because a huge portion of our business model was
based on live events, and a live events died and
(30:55):
so anyway, I did that and then I was able
we can relate to that. Yeah, you have that a deriveter, right, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
coworking community, live events. It's been right, Yeah, it's been hard. Right,
But I've been basically an entrepreneur for two and a
half years. And you know, if somebody had told me
when I was younger what fun it was, my whole
career would have been different. Because there's such a huge
(31:17):
difference between being a business journalist who writes and talks
about business and being a person starting a company that
you really believe in. It's so much better. And what
has it been like for you socially and emotionally? I
mean it sounds like you're super busy, which probably is
in many ways of blessing. Yeah. Like socially, I'm like,
you know, I got my pod basically hang out with
(31:38):
my kids. My kids are all with me um and
with their spouses, with the exception of my son who
lives in Maine. His wife is this school teacher, and
they do not let the school teachers leave Maine work.
I mean, it's brilliant what they I mean, they're protecting
the children. They just don't let the teachers travel. We
usually do the lightning round at the end. But Amy,
there is one story that Susie has uh that I
(31:58):
really want her to share with you because I think
he will so appreciate it as a story that's always
stuck with me. I included it in my book, and
I wanted you to share the Hawaii speaking engagement story,
such a frightening story so you will relate to this
as a mother with children. Is that I When I
was working at HBr, I got asked to give a
(32:18):
speech to a group of insurance executives in Hawaiian, like
some huge convention like five thousand or three thousand or
five thousand people woman, and so I said yes, And
then I thought, I'll bring two of my kids, because
you know what better way to sort of, you know,
kill two birds with one stone. And so um I
told them I'm gonna bring two of my kids. And
they were like, you really can't do that, this is
(32:38):
a work event. And I was like, don't worry. They're
like little adults will never notice through there. And they
were very they very much objected to this idea, and
but I was determined. And the day of the speech
to where house the children, I had put them in
a hula dancing class, and I went up on the
stage and started to give the speech. And I mean,
just people are zoning out. I mean when I think
(32:59):
about the speeches I give now, because I've had a
lot of experience, and the speech I was giving that night,
that that morning was just you know, I would have
fallen asleep if I hadn't been giving it. And as
I'm getting towards the end of the speech, I looked
out at the audience and at the way back it
was all glass doors, and I see these two little
figures pressed up against the door in hula skirts and
(33:20):
like they're screaming mommy. At the time, I can't hear them,
but I can see them. And it's sort of like
that scene from the Graduate, you know, where he's screaming
and he's screaming, and I see them screaming, and I
know that they're going to do a jail break, and
they're going to break into the speech. And I wrap
it up. I said, hey, look and that is the
history of management. And I like basically like finish up
(33:42):
the speech and at as I and wrapping it up.
They burst in and they run down the center aisle
towards me. They're like hugging my legs, and people are
walking out of the um conveying really disgusted. I mean,
and I just I deserved all their scorn because I
(34:04):
was ridiculous. What was I thinking. I was thinking I
was going to be the one woman who could do
it all all the same time. No one would have
done it previously and no one has done since, but
I was going to be that one woman. I was
to be her. Oh my god, I was just dying laughing,
I have to tell you. And in a closet and
my little kids were outside and they came inside with
(34:24):
my husband, and my children were like trying to break
open the door into the closet and like mommy, mommy, mommy,
And I'm like, how do I make this stop right now?
So embarrassing that you do the things that you do.
I mean, it was like I remember, like there was
a certain age where I would go on the treadmill
to run and say I remembers just I'm sort of
like gooddicted running in it. And I would go on
(34:47):
the treadmill because to leave the house would be too much,
because God forbid, I should be a mile or two
from the house and they would need me. So I
would run on the treadmill and the four of them
would sit at the front of the treadmill and stare
at me while I was running. That's the whole metaphor
for for working being a working mother, the children staring
at you on the road on the treadmill, waiting for
you to get off the treadmill, like oh yeah. I
feel like after once I had the third child, there
(35:07):
was no going to the gym. Like that for me
was like the breaking point of like you can actually
leave the house to go exercise. You have to write
somewhere in the home, so I gotta tread done too.
All right, it's time for Lulu. Are you there? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah,
I'm here. I'm here. I'm just listening. I'm admiring your
intelligence and and and just I kind of googled you too,
you know, um, so I can I can prepare myself,
(35:29):
but I couldn't prepare myself because a lot of stories
you were telling it was I was just captivated about
and um and it brought me back to one of
our first guests, Um, Abby and uh sorry Glenn and Glen,
and they talked about how they made each other and
it was just so beautiful. You know, Yes, it is
(35:49):
so similar. It's literally it's the only other time I've
ever heard that kind of lightning story is Abbey wand
back in Glenn and Doyle. It is the only other
day you know, and it and it it brought me
into a moment of how how when when two souls meet,
how is just you know, it's like you can't you
can't create this. It's just it's like some beautiful synergy
(36:11):
that just happens, you know. And you talked about how
he's how he walked away, he came back and I
a greased him, you know, I'm like, I'm like, wow,
he knew that he was gonna marry you, you know,
And it's so beautiful to have to have people you know,
do stuff like that, you know. So I mean, I mean,
and that's like the beautiful side of him. So what
(36:33):
I want to know, Jack does some things that you know,
obviously he's not hearing what guy rest his soul. But
he must have does done some things that really kind
of got under your skin, you know. But at the
same time, when you're like, you know, in the grocery story,
you're thinking about like what a man? You know? Can
you talk about some stuff like that? What an interesting question? Um.
(36:54):
I will tell you that I was older and wiser
when I married Jack. I mean it was an I
was forty and when I married him and about and
I didn't want to change a thing about him, I um,
And I knew going in there were going to be
things about him that that could that in a perfect
(37:17):
world would have been different, right, And I didn't. I
made this sort of psychological decision just not to care.
So there were things that could have driven me out
of my mind. Like, for instance, Jack could not make
himself a couple of orange juice. I mean, he just
couldn't operate in the kitchen. He just couldn't. He couldn't
like make a peanut butter cracker, he just couldn't. And
(37:39):
I just it could have driven me crazy because he
was you know, I had to think about his every meal, right,
like who was beating it to him? Or was it
going to be me? And I just decided I don't care,
because there's so many things about him that are so
more important and so spectacular. And it used to drive
my kids a little bit crazy because they didn't they weren't.
(38:00):
They loved him very very much, and you actually couldn't
they were That was a beautiful, beautiful thing. But they
were obviously more aware of all parents flaws than than
I was. And they would say, like, you know, does
he ever do anything wrong? And I would say to
them not in my eyes, because I bought, I bought
the whole package. I just loved him exactly as he
(38:20):
was and oddly, and it helped me in good stead,
you know, because as he got sicker and sicker, that
attitude about just taking him exactly as he was came
in very handy and to just never feel like he
was anything less than exactly what I wanted and needed.
And people say, don't you miss going out? Don't you
miss this? Did you miss that? And I would say, no,
(38:42):
I don't. I don't miss it. I had it, you know, like,
don't you miss Jack? And I went to like sixty
four countries together. We used to travel constantly. Don't you
miss it? And I would like, like like well we did it, um,
and now we're doing something as different. Now now is
my time to take care of him. And so if
he did things that drove me crazy, I I didn't care.
(39:04):
And he was the same way back. He was the
exact same way back. He never got annoyed with anything
I did. It was really great. It's great if you
can possibly find a person who does not get annoyed
with anything you do, carry them. That's okay. I'm crying
just so you know. Sorry, that was beautiful. I wish
(39:26):
I wish more human beings, even myself, can adopt that mindset. Well,
it's not too late, go ahead and adopt it today.
It isn't. But I'll tell you something. You hit the
right word, because it is a mindset I was. I
was not looking for his flaws and he was a
(39:46):
strong personality, and it was just everything he did was
okay to me. Um. And if he did something that
was like, oh I wish that had been slightly different,
I just round the most tender way to talk to
him about it, and it worked and vice versa. We
were I mean, I'm telling you it was I realized
(40:10):
that it's it sounds like it's a made up thing,
but it was real and it and it we were
I was just super lucky. Thank you, Thank you with that, Susie,
thank you so much. I adore you and you were
amazing and I'm just so glad that you joined us.
Thank you for bringing me back to the old days.
I mean, I think a lot of what happened is
that I dwell and you know, you get caught up
(40:31):
in what happened in the last couple of years. To
remember those early you know, that early decade or fifteen
years is really really enjoyful for me to thank you. Wow,
I just can't get enough of Susie wound. I can't either.
I could have talked to her forever. And I definitely
I think this is the first time I've cried in
(40:53):
an interview, and definitely multiple time. It's not no, it's
not Amy. You've cried before. Fine, I cry a lot,
but whatever, I multiple times on this one. I can't
help it. I can't remember what kind of Bernice will
you credit in Vernice armor? In Ernice flya girl armor.
You did cry, and you made fun of me for
not crying because I'm usually the crier among us. But anyway,
(41:14):
I'm so glad she touched you, because I just feel
so compelled by her. It's not just the way she
talks or her story, but it's also just the way
she carries herself is so inspiring. It is so inspiring.
I think if there's one takeaway, I think for all
of us, it's this um. It came towards the end
(41:34):
of our discussion with Susie, but I think it's relevant
to all of us. During COVID, people would ask her
towards the end of Jack's life, she missed traveling, she
missed goingance restaurants, and she said, we did that. You know,
I had that part and now we're in a different part.
And I think if we can all adopt that mindset,
we're all going through our own enormous changes, and so
(41:55):
many people are dealing with a lot of grief, Like Susie,
There's just there's a lot there. H Thanks for listening
to What's Her Story with Sam and Amy. We would
so appreciate if you would leave a review wherever you
get your podcasts, and of course, connect with us on
social media at What's Her Story of podcast. What's Her
Story with Sam and Amy is powered by my company,
(42:16):
The Riveter at the Riveter dot c O in Sam's company,
park Place Payments at park place payments dot com. Thanks
to our producer Laurel Moglin, our podcast associate Emma Hard,
and our male perspective lue Bert's One
Hosts And Creators
Samantha Ettus
Amy Nelson
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