November 26, 2020 • 41 mins
What’s Her Story with Sam & Amy interviews Vernice “FlyGirl” Armour, the first African-American female combat pilot in the US Armed Forces. Vernice is full of stories that range from the hilarious to the heartbreaking. Her journey is rife with challenges and filled with inspiration on how to turn obstacles into opportunities.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Sam and I'm Amy, and this is what's
her story with Sam and Amy. Today we get to
talk to Vernice fly Girl Armor, and she is such
a rock star in every way. But I think for me,
(00:21):
I once spoke at a conference with Ernie years ago
and we crossed pass very briefly, but I didn't really
meet her. And then just recently she joined aboard I'm
on and I immediately clicked with her and we started
talking offline. And I think it can be lonely sometimes,
feeling like you're out there fighting the battle for women.
You sometimes think what would my life be like if
(00:43):
I just sat there and thought about yoga or my
next latte. And I don't think we're capable of being
that person, Amy, but but sometimes you're like, oh my god,
why did I make my life so complicated? And I'm
exhausted from fighting all the time. I do I think
that's right. I mean, there have definitely been times in
my own life where I thought, Okay, can I just
take a break for three or six months? It is
not in my constitution. And you can tell that Vernice
(01:05):
is very much the same. She has done so many
hard things and what we talk about with her too,
is she's been the first so many times, from the
first African American woman in the police force in Tempe,
Arizona to the first African American female combat pilot in
the Marines. I mean, just an over and over and over,
and that too, can just be really exhausting when you
(01:26):
uncover someone's story who you didn't know, who's an incredible inspiration.
Sometimes I think it's easy to think the only people
out there fighting the battle, or Oprah Winfrey, aby Wan
Back and Glenn and Doyle and you know, and Shonda
Rhymes or something like, only the people that are always
have their names in lights. It reminds you that there's
a lot of depth on the bench and that gives
me a lot of heart, Like it makes me feel good. Well,
(01:48):
if you want a lot of heart, listen to the
rest of this podcast, because it is incredible. What's so?
I am Vermes, bull By Girl, al Armor and I
am blown Away having a blast, ready to engage, missiles,
ready loaded to be on. What's her story with who? Sam?
(02:10):
You've been the first a lot? Does it ever become normal? Yes,
my last name starts with A. I was always at
the front of the line. But it doesn't ever frustrate you.
I mean I would think it's more just frustrating that
you're still the first, right, Like, how come you're still
the first so often? Right? The reason I am still
the first so offense because the playing field still isn't
(02:32):
level for communities of color period in the story, I mean,
we didn't even get our first black female general in
the Marine Corps until last year. Does that mean there
was never a black woman qualified or a black woman
never became It was cream the crop. No, but access
and exposure to whatever it is in any industry is
(02:52):
absolutely key. I mean Bessie Coleman, the first black pilot
male or female, couldn't even get licensed here in America.
Had to go over to France, learn how to speak
French and get her license in France because she couldn't
get it here in America. So, you know, we have
a ways to go from being kidnapped from our communities,
(03:13):
brought over, h made into slaves, and property, raped, hung
cast raight. I know I'm getting kind of graphic here,
but like for people to really understand where black people
have come from, I mean, even once blacks were free,
that a lot of dead sharecropping, which is living on
the same land, working that land, and giving all the
(03:33):
crops to the owner to be able to live on
the land. Right then we were three fifths of a person,
which meant you couldn't vote because you have to be
five fifths a whole person. So just to bring it
around to this whole you know, black lives matter. That's
happening right now, and this is not a political conversation.
This is about our humanity, our character as a country.
Who are we as a people when we say black
(03:55):
lives matter? Me and I could not agree more with you.
And we feel so strongly that the people who say,
oh wow, black lives matter, it's like where where have
you been? And why haven't you been thinking this way
before the last few months. How do you react to
people who seem surprised? Sometimes I think it's like, okay,
you really And sometimes people live in communities where they
(04:21):
just don't see it and they haven't been exposed to it,
or they haven't had friends that were close to them
that shared those stories. I do have tons of stories
before I was a police officer, as a police officer,
after being a police officer, but one of the ones
that I really remember my dad was teaching me how
to drive. I was sixteen. He said, all right, pull over,
I'm gonna ask you a question. It's not gonna be
(04:41):
on the test, but it's the most important one. I said, okay.
He said, what do you do if you get stopped
by the police? Said? Hands visible? Tenant too? That's right,
he said, he said, but damn, what if I didn't
do anything wrong, It doesn't matter. My dad didn't want
me to be right. He just wanted me to come
home that night. Right. So when we talk about black
lives matter, I doubt many white parents have that conversation
(05:04):
with their kids. When you think about buy a bag
of skittles and walking home Trayvon Martin or jogging down
the street a Mode Aubrey, just a couple of hours
from where I live. I mean I don't even jug
out of my outside of my neighborhood anymore. I mean
sleeping in your bed, Brianna Taylor, I mean, you can't eat,
you can't sleep, you can't job, Like, what can you
do and actually still feel safe in your own home,
(05:27):
in your own bed. So this is total surprise. I
did not expect our conversation to go off like this
from from the very from jump. But it I think
it speaks to our leadership in our communities and our
companies um and from us internally, right and it and
(05:49):
it goes back to who do we want to be?
How do you decide who you want to be when
you don't have that access and representation? Right? Going back
to this, you have you being the first, How did
you decide who you want to to be when you
hadn't seen yourself? When I was a kid four years old,
worn in Chicago, I saw a cop ride in the
horse downtown. I was like, oh, I wanted to be
a cop that wrote a horse downtown. At the age
(06:10):
of six, I got my very first pony, like you right,
So who knew? I was signing up for a life
of service, you know, for enlisting in the army to
help get me ready for the police department. Because I
enlisted when I was eighteen. Can't be a cop till
you're twenty one, So I saw the military as a
strategic advantage, you know, to becoming a police officer. My
(06:32):
brothers had a dirt bike, a mop head, all kinds
of stuff, and I wanted a little scooter. My mom
was like, no, you're a girl. Was like what the
worst things she could have ever said to me. So
when I got to college and I got my student
loan and within an hour I had a Cycle Trader magazine,
and within three days I bought my very first motorcycle.
It was my first vehicle. So of course, when I
(06:53):
got on the police department motors, you know, motorcycles, because
Nashville didn't have an equestrian unit at the time, I
wasn't trying to be the first. It was exciting, it
was juicy, it was fun, it was adventurous. I wanted
to be a motorcycle cop. Like who didn't grow up
watching Emergency and Chips? What was your family like growing up?
You know speeches, I've listened to things I've read You've written.
You talk a lot about how both your dad and
(07:15):
your stepdad where military man's sounds like you had to
father figures. What was that? Like I did. My parents
got divorced at three um both got remarried, so I
had two sets of parents, and I got something from
every single parent, Like my stepmom was the party or
my dad that who I grew up with. He was
marine three tours Vietnam played for the coach when they
were in Baltimore work construction. Like, my dad was tough,
(07:37):
he was amazing, and he taught me how to be courageous.
He taught me about integrity, like we were not allowed
to if we lied, man, we got to spank him
from hell. My mom she cared a lot about what
everybody else thought. I went the exact opposite way, like,
I don't care what anybody thinks. I'm you know, I'm maverick.
I'm going for it. Oh and my father, Mr. Philosophy,
(07:57):
Like he drew a circle and he said, Okay, if
there's body of knowledge and you know what, you know,
what else is there? If there are three pieces to
the pie. I was like, you know what you don't know? Right?
And then he said, well, what's the last piece of
My brother and I are thinking, thinking, thinking my brother
sixteen months younger than me. And then finally my brother said, uh,
you don't know what you don't know? And I was like,
because he got it before I did. We were very competitive,
(08:19):
but he had me thinking about that stuff as a
kid seven eight years old, right, And I grew up
having those kind of socratic conversations where It absolutely shaped
me into the person I am today. You became apparent
five years ago. I did. Yes, I led to that decision,
and how did that happen? So I've always wanted kids,
(08:42):
But then, you know, I listened in the army. Then
I got on a police department, new job, Marine Corps,
new job, flight school, new job. Then once I graduated
from flight school, I'm in the fleet. I'm learning to
fly my combat aircraft. Not eleven happens we're on deployments.
I think that's the age old question for women, When
do you make the decision to have a kid if
(09:02):
you also have a career. Right then I got out
and I started my company. You know, when you're a
brand new entrepreneur, you're you're birthing something into the world.
You're grinding your own grind mode. So after however many years,
and it was almost ten years with my company, I said, okay,
am I going for the record year or the rewarding year.
(09:22):
And I said, the clocks ticking. If I don't pull
the trigger, there will be no trigger to pull. And
at forty one, I went through IVF and had my daughter.
Two days after my forty twond birthday. You had her
as a single mom or was their partner involved. I
did have her as a single mom, Yes, And I
got married shortly after to a woman I thought was
(09:46):
amazing at the time. But you know, divorce happens, life happens,
you know, things happen. And she, I'm sure it's still
an amazing woman. We were just not right for each other, right,
So um, it was a short marriage, divorced, and and
now it's just me. I'm my little person and she
is amazing and just love and life. What's the most
(10:07):
unexpected thing about being a mother? Oh? How much love?
The capacity of or love that my my heart truly has. Yeah,
I hear you. I have four daughters, and I had that.
I had two of them while I was starting my company,
The Riveter, and like just me not understanding what starting
a company was like because I do not come from
a family of entrepreneurs. My daughters are now six, four,
(10:29):
three and one and my company is three and a half.
And I think I look back at the last four
years and like, I don't remember it. I have three kids,
and I always say to women, there is no good time,
like there is no perfect time, and there's never going
to be a good time. And so if you're committed
to having a career and having a family, you will
figure it out. And you don't have to plan it
(10:50):
perfectly because when you try to, it never works out
that way. So, you know, it's one of those things
where I think, for if you're listening and you're thinking
about when to start your family, don't get to a
certain point on your cap table, all your personal cap table,
or some job title or you know, now at this
point you don't even need to wait for the perfect partner.
(11:11):
You can do it on your own. And that it's
one of my things that I talked about. You know,
the gutsy move right and your gut you know it's right,
It takes guts to do it, but you gotta take action.
If you don't take action, it wasn't a gutsy move,
It was just a gutsy thought. And you know, we
can only do so much thinking about it. At what
(11:31):
point do we stop waiting and engaging? So I said
I needed to engage take action when I was in
the desert before we could shoot our missiles, we had
to get permission from the ground controller right to engage.
And he would actually say, you have permission to engage. Well,
if you're at home, there are no ground controllers in life.
(11:52):
If you don't give yourself permission, who will? Who will?
So I'm talking about if you don't give yourself permission,
who Well, you've built a business and you've given your
self permission to do a lot of things. What advice
would you give to someone today who is just stuck
in life in their career? Like, how can you help
(12:13):
give yourself permission? So, first I'd say, you're not stuck,
You're just not moving. It's a conscious, intentional choice. I
was bullied as a kid growing up. I grew up
in all white neighborhood and I moved to all the
black neighborhoods. So I was different. I spoke different along
hairbet of courses. Uh, I just didn't fit in at
all whatsoever. Then junior high in high school, you know,
(12:33):
it continued, and then I got to college and I'd
already decided like I'm just my own person. But I
was very conflict avoidn't when I was a kid, especially,
I would get so frustrated and pin up because I
wouldn't say something if I felt it that I would
just burst into tears. I would just cry. But you know,
when I got into the army, I remember Lopez on
my my laundry bag, and I could rationalize anybody's bad
(12:53):
behavior right, like as well maybe there as well, maybe
that I won't say anything. But when I saw that
laundry bag and those drill shards, as were honest, and
I was like, what you She's the one that put
me through all that misery. When that inspection happened, then
I didn't have my laundry bag and I just went
off and I cussed her. It was the first time
I've ever cut somebody out in my life. And afterwards
(13:14):
I said that felt pretty good, right, And so the
being in those experiences along the adventure of life as
a cop, I couldn't just say excuse me, sir to
the drunk belligerent guy, because you just turn around and
um uh, put your hands behind your back. Right, turn around,
put your hands behind your back. I heard this woman saying,
(13:35):
I wish I couldn't remember who it was, but she said,
you had to be it until you become it, right embody,
So every day, if you don't feel courageous, do something courageous.
If you don't feel gutsy, do something gutsy every day
until it becomes Oprah says that muscle, right, the no muscle.
How hard is it for so many of us to
(13:56):
say no to something we don't want to do? Got
a diagrass for one second, and psychoanalyze the fact. I've
done a ton of research. I used to write a
lot about parenting, and one of the things that leads
to a child being afraid to speak up is spanking.
When you use spanking as a form of discipline, it
creates fear based parenting, so that that child is then
(14:17):
afraid to use their voice, to speak up to authority,
to speak out. So I wonder if that's why it
was in you always to speak up, and that's why
you would burst into tears. But then it took you
until your adult life to actually get the courage to
use your voice absolutely, And it was only through experience
(14:37):
being put in situations where it was like speak up
or deal with the consequences, speak up or deal with
the fallout. And so many times we don't have those
courageous conversations in corporate America, especially right the courageous conversation
about what's really happening, what's really going on because we
don't want to deal with the fallout. What if I
get alienated? What if I get fired? What if I
(14:58):
get a bad evaluation, What if I get demoted right?
What if I don't get the promotion? What if people
don't like me? So many facets to it. Amy Vernice
and I were on a board together and we were
in a conversation recently with someone who was afraid to
use their voice, and Vernice, very bravely, I felt, said
there were white people who house slaves in their family
(15:22):
to protect them when the underground railroad was happening, and
they risk not only their lives, but their families lives,
And so let's talk about risk. And Wow, you said
something that I think most people would be too afraid
to say. And that's one of the things I've admired
about you since I first saw you speak when we
spoke together a conference years ago. I think that most
(15:45):
people don't use their voice, and if if our world
was filled with people who did speak up, everything would
look so different, It would look completely different. But how
many times have we said um again from especially the
corporate America lands, but the community lands. Right, If you
have a seat at the table and you don't speak
up your waist in a seat, like why be at
(16:05):
the table? I fought for the right for all of
us to have that right. I did not want to
be in the military. I did not I want to
be a cop rode a horse downtown. I got in
the military by accident that saw the flyer free trip
to mty gral. I said, hey, that fits the budget free,
soe sono. After I got involved, I saw that it
could be the strategic advantage that it was. It was
during that time that I also saw the black woman
(16:27):
in a flight suit, which life changing, completely changed my life.
In that moment, I did not see myself in that role.
I've been flying since I was five or six to
go see my dad, but I've never seen a black pilot,
and I definitely never seen a black female pilot. Now,
shouldn't have taken seeing a black female pilot for me
to want to be a pilot? Well, No, I wanted
(16:49):
to be a cop that rode the horse downtown. But again,
access to exposure. I've had an amazing life, an amazing adventure.
The Marine Corps was really tough. It was definitely the
boys club. It was not like being on the police department,
and I thought it would be. So it was a
rude awakening once I got there when people didn't like
me just because of I can't be standing up like
(17:11):
just based on who I am when I walk in
the room, you do not want me there. That was
a huge awakening. Talk about don't ask, don't tell, and
it's impact on your lane. So that's funny. When I
first enlisted in the Army, they actually asked the question
are you homosexual? And I lied. But by the time
I was in the Marine Corps, don't ask, don't tell
(17:32):
it was in place they didn't ask, I didn't tell
what you could probably tell. Oh good, and uh, you know,
I really didn't hide a lot about who I was
at all. Um. But the difference was if John came
to work and we were all talking about what we
did for the weekend, John would say, oh, yeah, I
(17:53):
took my wife and the kids to the park, blah
blah blah. I couldn't say I took my wife to
the park. I would just have to say I went
to the park with a friend, or I went to
the park with my family. So, you know, a lot
of times people saying, well, why do you have to
walk around and pronounce that you're gay. It's not about that.
It's just about being able to be just like anybody
(18:16):
else and have the same protections and rights and liberties
as anyone else. Who is my American sister a brother.
That's such a great point. I read a really interesting
essay that you wrote in publication by the U. S.
Marine Corps after the End, Don't Ask, Don't Tell. I
believe that was your kind of, as you said, like
your public coming out in that essay, even though you've
been out of the military for some years well, and
(18:37):
I think when I wrote that, I was still in
When I wrote that, it was really close in there,
like that transition and everything. What went into your decision
to write that essay the same decision that went into
mind that when I answered the phone in the squadron
and it was the San Diego Tribune and they asked
if they could interview me, and it felt like the
(18:59):
acid bomb exploded in my stomach because I knew if
I said yes, I'd be skylining myself yet once again.
And my squadron, Oh, you think you're special, And if
I didn't, there would be so many people that didn't
get the same vision inspiration, uh that I did when
(19:20):
I walked into that tent and I saw that black
woman in a flight suit. So sometimes I say, and
I heard this somewhere when you were a pioneer in
the wild West. Sometimes you get arrows in your back.
And what was that fallout? Like? I got extra duty.
I didn't get put on the flight schedule as much.
The guys, of course, had their comments, Oh, you know,
you just think you're this, You think you're that. I mean,
(19:42):
my commanding officer even called me into his office and said,
Lieutenant Armor, why do they want to interview you? What
makes you special? What makes you so special? I said,
I'm not special. I'm just like all the other copilots
in the squadron. I just want to be the best
pilot that I could be. And if I may speak freely,
if someone graduates from Harvard or Princeton and no one
(20:05):
has ever graduated from Harvard or Princeton, and my family
before we're gonna have a party. We're gonna celebrate because
no one in my family has done that. My community
is just celebrating because no one had done this. So
I don't know if that's sunken or if it made
an impact or not. But um, you know, for people
to say, oh, well, people have been doing it for years, No,
(20:27):
white guys have been doing it for years. Everyone hasn't
been doing it for years, and everyone didn't even have
the access to do it for years. And when we
see things happening now, how are we standing up against
what's wrong or are we just looking the other way?
Did you have a mentor or a sponsor in the military, Yes, many,
(20:47):
And there was not a black female pilot in the
military right or the Marine Corps rather, which meant all
of my mentors and sponsors and champions did not look
like me, whether they were white, black, man, woman. And
I am a huge believer that you should have mentors
(21:09):
inside and outside of what you're doing right inside your organization,
outside your organization, inside your industry, outside your industry, look
like you, don't look like you. So you get that
perspective from different angles to really see a situation more
objectively than we would through just our own filter. What
(21:31):
was the Marine Corps training like? I think there's so
many myths out there and we imagine it from movies,
but what was it actually like? It was just like
the movies women g I Gene. Okay, maybe not like
Gig because I didn't go through seal training. It was
crazy tough. I mean I was always a slow runner.
I was not. I was always in the turtle route.
(21:52):
When I graduated from Officer Canada School in the United
States Marine Corps, I could run anywhere anytime. I'm all day.
I mean I was a piece of lean meat and gristle.
That's it. Like there was an ounce of fat on
me and my body just felt amazing. And I mean
(22:13):
I got on the bodybuilding team power lifter. I mean,
I was always an athlete, right. I lifted waits during
college and things. But even when I went through the
Army and Police Academy, it was very tough on me physically.
Officer Candet's school was tough on me physically, but the
pressure was so much where they pushed your body so
far to the limit that it had no recourse but
(22:36):
to adapt what to day in the life of a marine.
Let's see if I can remember that far back back
when I was young. One of the things that scared
me to death is I'm not a morning person and
wake up in the morning was at four thirty. Yeah,
we were eating breakfast by five thirty, Yeah, every morning,
and I said, oh my god, I'm gonna die. I
was also a very slow eater. And you've seen all
(22:57):
the TV, you know, like you know, you're seven, and
uh so we get up at four thirty, we get
our gear on, we get outside, we march over to
the breakfast hall. We stand in life forever you eat breakfast.
And one of the things I learned was how to
study in the military. So we had our book of knowledge,
you know, and I started taking pages out of it
and putting it in my pocket. And everywhere I went,
(23:19):
I would always study, study, study, study for the test, right,
And that followed me into flight, the basic school and
then flight school, and now even in my own business,
I was able to create my own little curriculums to
learn certain things, like whether it's marketing or this or
the copy or whatever, because I've been put in that
situation of having to uptake huge, large amounts of knowledge before.
(23:41):
So you eat breakfast. I was not a breakfast eater,
like and you know, pancakes and all that's the eggs
and sausages and we're getting then we're getting ready to
go pet for physical fitness for an hour, hour and
a half after three days of being starving and going
and working out, and I started eating pancakes and bacon
and sausage and uh. Then we'd have a period of
(24:04):
instruction in the classroom where we learned certain things, and
we go out into the field, the field, meaning we'd
go to field exercises out in the woods with our weapons,
and we'd have lunch. Sometimes it was out in the
field as an m r. E. Meal ready to eat.
Sometimes it was in the chow hall, and then there
was dinner. Then you'd get back. You'd maybe take a
(24:25):
shower hopefully, But I remember my very first shower was
maybe twenty seconds twenty five seconds long. And I knew
it was going to be like that because they tell
you get in the shower. They run everybody in a
line like get out, like literally get in getting yelling.
Oh there was yelling, There was dying. Why is that not?
That is such a damn question. Why is there six
(24:54):
four three and one. There's no deep couch sitting. You
don't just sit back on the couch. You were on
the edge of the couch because one of them being
ready do something. There's always yelling there's always yelling in
the beginning. Anyway, It's not always like that, but in
the beginning it is because they're really indoctrinating you. They
are breaking you down. It's us against them to where
(25:14):
we depend on each other and we bond as a
team and we come together as a team, and we're
in our leadership's role where we're leading our teams. You're
not an individual anymore. You can't even say I had
to say candidate Armor Canada Armor requests to go to
the bathroom. Right. He used to have friends from us
(25:40):
from OCS. Actually I do. I haven't kept in touch
with them like I should, but yes, in the Basic school,
I just had dinner with a guy that I was
in the Basic school with, which is where you go
right after after candidate school. Every Marine Corps officer goes
through that school before they go off to their specialty,
because every Marine is a rifleman. Right and Ken geticky. Uh,
(26:03):
he was actually over the company and he made me,
one of the platoon leaders talk about ahead of his time,
when this gut took diversity, inclusion and belonging. He's just
amazing and it was so cool to see him after
twenty two years. A month and a half ago we
had dinner together. I mean, he must be so proud
(26:25):
of where you are today. You started this incredible corporate
leadership company. Can you tell us a little bit about
it and the names of the companies that you've spoken at.
How did you get all these clients? So I've spoken
for companies like Wells, Fargo, Bank America, uh Selgene, Target
(26:45):
Capital one e y Fiser. I mean, I've been very
blessed when it comes to you know, Fortune fifty thousand
companies that I speak for on that foundation of permission
to engage gutsy leadership right, defining digital moment, which has
to do with the gutsy move right Blockbuster, you know,
(27:07):
when they're defining digital moment, was here I eat buying Netflix?
They're they're launching they weren't looking out. I mean, this
is the c suite, like, this is the senior leadership, right.
But how do you go from being fly girl to
come out of the military and suddenly you don't just
be blessed and then you have Fortune fifty cards? How
(27:28):
do you get there? That's true? So that's that's a
longer story, but I'm gonna sum that up real quick.
I was on a battlefield where I was fighting real enemy.
People were trying to kill me and take me out
of the sky. Right Well, here at home, that's the
battlefield of life. And there are a lot of parallels
and being decisive, being committed, being situationally aware, being intentional, leading,
(27:52):
speaking up, preparing, planning, and I think that's the foundation.
It's it's all about the fame work right. The flight plan,
a flight plan for success for life, because when the
crap hits the fan, as long as you have the framework,
you can flex to that, flex that get back on
course and accomplish the mission, whether that's healthcare, tech company
(28:14):
or stay at home mom. When we have our plan
for the day, things go a whole lot smoother than
when we don't know what the heck we're doing and
how we're gonna get it done, and it can be
very overwhelming. When I was making that transition, honestly, I
just wanted to be an inspiration and I wanted to
be a role model and inspiration for people of color
and especially women. And I knew I had something to
(28:36):
offer for women in corporate America, especially women in STEM right,
women in tech. About the b gutsy, be bold, be prepared,
be confident, stand up, because I'd gone from this kid
who was bullied, who didn't have a voice, to becoming
a woman that felt empowered and strong and courageous and gutsy.
And I had so many women coming up to me
(28:57):
saying how did you get there? How did you get there?
So instead of sending them through boot camp or off
your candidate school, I just take them through different experiences.
And I think, actually, right now I have the Gutsy
Confidence Project right where women who feel sometimes you know,
they feel like they have a lack of confidence, bouts
(29:19):
of it right or imposter syndrome. And it feels like
the more senior a woman is that I'm talking to,
the more this happens, and like, what are you talking about?
You were so qualified, you were so amazing, you were
so strong. But on the inside, we feel like at
any moment we're gonna get exposed. People are gonna find
out we really don't know everything we say we do.
(29:40):
All our ducks aren't in a row. And like a
job position will come out a promotion, right, there will
be ten qualifications, a woman will have nine point five
and saying oh no, I'm not qualified. A guy will
have half of one and said, I'm going for it.
Why why I even made up these T shirts? A
close mouth don't get fit. If we don't speak up,
if we don't step up, all we got is know
(30:01):
is it? My granny always said that close my mouth,
don't get any one more question before are lightening round?
What was it like in a round? That's such a
broad question, but I mean, thank you for your service. Truly,
a lot of people have never gotten to speak to
a veteran service there, honor to serve first of all,
to be able to go over there for my country.
And as far as the heat goes, turn on your oven,
(30:22):
put it on royal high, put your head in, throw
sand in your face, and turn on the blow dryer
on high. That's probably what the heat felt like. And
it was an obscure, crazy environment. I thought it was
going to be this whole like band of brothers, like
we're in it together. And at a certain point I
(30:43):
was walking back from the gym, the sun was scorching
down on my skin. It was a hundred and twenty
three degrees. I was having problems with the guys in
the squadron. It was horrible. I was having problems with
my girlfriend back in the state, thousands of miles away,
and I was just having a horrible time right just
in life. I felt miserable and there was no escape
(31:04):
because every day was there. I couldn't go to the
movies or go to a restaurant, or take the weekends
off or oh well, walk away from like you're there
in the environment seven And I just remember saying, God,
I wish this was out of the squadron. I wish
this deployment was over. God, wish I was at the
Marine Corps. And then I just stopped and the dust
was fine, like talcum powder, and it builded up around
(31:25):
and I took a huge breath and I could feel
the heat, the searing sand going in my lungs and
it was painful, and I said, that is a breath
I will never have again. And as painful as it was,
it reminds me that I'm alive, that I have an
opportunity to change my situation and my circumstances. And if
(31:49):
I'm not careful, I will wish this squadron away. I
wish this deployment away, I wish the Marine Corps way.
I will have wished my life away, and in the
I will never forget it. And in that moment, I said,
if I feel pain, it's just growing pain period in
the store, and I will learn something from it. Because life,
I'm just being prepared for the next mission. I'm being
(32:13):
called to. So well, I'm not crying, so that's okay, Um,
I think that's what I mean. No, but really, this
is in your eyes, is just missing in your eyes,
And yeah, it makes me cross sometimes too. It's a
lesson that everyone could use in so many instances of
their life, particularly now when we're dealing with this collective
grief of loss of life, of loss of our community.
(32:34):
A lot of people have lost their jobs or their businesses.
And I think, like, if you're trying to frame it,
his growing pains is really it's really profound. Yeah, all right,
lightning round tears. Sam has no emotions. I don't know
if you know that anyway. That's me, that's our that's
our role. I'm not sensitive here. Amy always ask what
(32:58):
your morning routine is, but I really want to know
what your sleep routein is. That's so good, it's so funny.
I was thinking that I haven't been getting enough sleep
so I wear my fitbit almost all the time. But
the band broke, so I've been off my sleep routine.
And I like to go to bed when my daughter
goes to bed or shortly thereafter, because I love to
get eight or nine hours of sleep. Before COVID, I
(33:18):
was getting up and going to the five thirty in
the morning class A CrossFit. Cross bitters were intense, were dedicated.
We're like crazy. I mean it was totally by cup
of tea and I'd come back to the shower, jump
on the computer, do whatever kind of work. Or if
I was traveling that day, pack my bag, jump on
the plane, head out to my event, come back hopefully.
(33:41):
I was taking my golf clubs with me if it
was summertime, taking my snowboard with me if it was
winter and I was going in Colorado or Whistler. And
I always tried to infuse fun and adventure in my day.
Looks very different now because I'm flying a desk which
I've never had a desk job in my life, and
it's about killing me. But we'll make it through. What
(34:01):
are you reading ninety day launch island Wise Consulting. Oh,
I was trying to make it through Oh that's so good. Gosh.
If you have prepared me, I would have had the
books that i'm reading. Oh the twelve week year. Okay.
So when I was in Iraq, I read all the time,
and I would go through a book every two days.
Every two and a half days, I was picking up
a new like novel book. I would read through a
(34:23):
book that fast. But when I got back, and especially
when I started my company, I was reading so much
on business that now I'm just I soaked up business
books like The e Menth by Michael Gerber, the Four Agreements,
Miguel Release, the Celestian Prophecy. That's probably as close to
if you were to say fiction, um that I probably
get these days, because if I'm reading fiction, I could
(34:46):
be reading something that is enhancing my personal development, that
is growing me. I'm looking at I'm I'm a huge
believer that fiction enhances your personal development even more than nonfiction.
If you read a fiction book after having read all
of this nonfiction, you will be blown away. I'm gonna
send you like three recommendations. Okay, but that's what Netflix
(35:06):
is for. What are you watching right now? Well, I
just want just watching the last season of one I'm
a huge sci fi buff. I just watched Black Lightning.
I watched but um, I have a Duvernet, which was
crazy and amazing. And of course I watched Barbie and Friends.
Do you let your daughter watch that Barbie garbage? A
(35:29):
little something happened and she got exposed to it. And
I tell you what it's all about, access and exposure.
Has she never watched that iPad or TV? Uh, she'd
probably be a different kid right now. But you know what,
We're all in her journey. I'm just her shepherd. She
doesn't even belong to me. I was just blessed to
be able to bring her into the world into help
guide her for these first few years as she goes
(35:51):
off to learn her own lessons and discover her own things.
And I'm just so excited she chose me to be
her mom. What's your childcare situation? I have a nanny
and my mom stays with us a whole lot. She
lives in Memphis, but she'll come down here and stay
for months. And yeah, yeah, again, super blessed on that front.
And I'm not religious, I'm spiritual, um, but I absolutely
(36:13):
believe in higher power and that we're not going through
all of this for nothing. And one of my favorite
sayings is the universe is conspiring for my best interest
at all times, and it's up to me to see
the opportunity in the obstacle. Napoleon Hill in the book
Thinking Grow Rich n six said, most of the time,
(36:35):
opportunities to come disguised as obstacles. Diversity is the mother
of innovation. So Vitamin oh, baby, Vitamin oh, obstacles or opportunities?
All right, lately you're turring wow. Okay, okay, okay, I'm
still trying to digest some of that vitamin oh right now.
But you, my goodness, you are such a light, and
(36:56):
thank you so much for your service, Thank you for
the edible, phenomenal black queen that you are. I am
so inspired the amount of people that we've interviewed. I'm
just getting more in touch with so many different areas
that I don't even know existed. And this has just
been the most emotional, incredible phenomenal right in my life.
You being a black woman, be being a black man.
(37:19):
I am currently working on emotional intelligence and open up
a door so that other black men can have an
arena where we can actually get vulnerable and talk about
things you just don't talk about. I want to know
what are you doing as a black woman to allow
other people of our ethnic group to have access to
things that we just don't have access to, to be
(37:40):
previous information that we're not privy to. Now, that's really
good a lot of researchers out there. When you look
at the average women owned business owned by a white woman,
it's a hundred and eighty three thousand revenue. Then you
look at the woman of color, it's eighty seven thousand
a year revenue. And the average black woman owned business
was twenty seven thousand dollars a year in revenue compared
to a hundred eighty three and a white women. So
(38:01):
it's very stark difference. And I started this thing called
flag Girl Fridays just actually at the end of COVID
where I said, well, I shouldn't say the end, but
I said, the rest of doesn't have to be horrible.
For some people, it's been the worst year their their life.
So how do we create the best year and create
the breakthrough even in the midst of obstacle? Right where
(38:23):
do we find the opportunity? So I created Flaggirl Fridays
with a very low barrier to entry because it really
is about access and exposure and being able to have
access to the resources and people and mentors that can
help us move forward. UM. I try to be very
active on social media and be vulnerable and actually speaking
(38:44):
about things that matter with some amount of depth. But
I think it's important for those of us who have
a different perspective and a little insight that our brothers
and sisters may not. It's income upon us to share it, right,
because if you think about generational PTSD that has been
(39:05):
passed down through the generations, they talk about abuse being
generational and you had to break the cycle. That's all
we knew at one point, for four hundred and one years,
we haven't even been out of slavery half the time
we were in it. I mean, my grandfather still talked
to me about his aunt that was a slave. You know, Sam,
you talked about spankings. Many black families spanked their kids
(39:26):
because that's the discipline that was done to them, because
it was done to their grandmother and their great grandmother.
They're right, we have a ways to go, and it's
gonna take the people who have some sense of being
awake to wake other folks up to create those moments
of oh man, I never looked at it like that.
(39:46):
Thank you for sharing that, because now I think about
that differently. Along with access, equity and the opportunity that
we haven't had before. A couple of things that stuck
out to me me from that interview, we're how unafraid
Bernice is and how she talked about access, and she
(40:07):
also just has this unbelievable optimism. Access is really important.
She talks a lot about representation and access right that
if you can't see what you want to be, it's
hard to imagine being it, and then it's also hard
to imagine those doors opening for you. The thing that's
really amazing about Bernice is even though she's lived this
really hard life and done really brave and amazing and
incredible things and been incredibly successful, she doesn't stop arrest
(40:30):
on it. She wants to make sure that she can
be representation and she can be access for her community,
for women, for women of color. And that's really hard work.
It's so all said, and it's so true, and I
think that what gets her through it is is your attitude,
which is truly extraordinary and contagious. I don't think I
could be in a bad mood around her. I wasn't
in a great mood when we started this interview, and
(40:51):
now I am. I love hearing that. Thank you all
for listening, and thanks for following us on social media
and we love interacting with you. Thank you to our
production team at Large Media and our podcast associate Emma
Hard and our male perspective Blue Burns. And this podcast
is powered by Sam's company, park Place Payments at park
(41:12):
place payments dot com and Amy's company The Riveter at
the Riveter dot Co. And I just talked about myself
in the third person. That is against the law. You
break all the rules, Amy
Hi, I'm Sam and I'm Amy, and this is what's
her story with Sam and Amy. Today we get to
talk to Vernice fly Girl Armor, and she is such
a rock star in every way. But I think for me,
(00:21):
I once spoke at a conference with Ernie years ago
and we crossed pass very briefly, but I didn't really
meet her. And then just recently she joined aboard I'm
on and I immediately clicked with her and we started
talking offline. And I think it can be lonely sometimes,
feeling like you're out there fighting the battle for women.
You sometimes think what would my life be like if
(00:43):
I just sat there and thought about yoga or my
next latte. And I don't think we're capable of being
that person, Amy, but but sometimes you're like, oh my god,
why did I make my life so complicated? And I'm
exhausted from fighting all the time. I do I think
that's right. I mean, there have definitely been times in
my own life where I thought, Okay, can I just
take a break for three or six months? It is
not in my constitution. And you can tell that Vernice
(01:05):
is very much the same. She has done so many
hard things and what we talk about with her too,
is she's been the first so many times, from the
first African American woman in the police force in Tempe,
Arizona to the first African American female combat pilot in
the Marines. I mean, just an over and over and over,
and that too, can just be really exhausting when you
(01:26):
uncover someone's story who you didn't know, who's an incredible inspiration.
Sometimes I think it's easy to think the only people
out there fighting the battle, or Oprah Winfrey, aby Wan
Back and Glenn and Doyle and you know, and Shonda
Rhymes or something like, only the people that are always
have their names in lights. It reminds you that there's
a lot of depth on the bench and that gives
me a lot of heart, Like it makes me feel good. Well,
(01:48):
if you want a lot of heart, listen to the
rest of this podcast, because it is incredible. What's so?
I am Vermes, bull By Girl, al Armor and I
am blown Away having a blast, ready to engage, missiles,
ready loaded to be on. What's her story with who? Sam?
(02:10):
You've been the first a lot? Does it ever become normal? Yes,
my last name starts with A. I was always at
the front of the line. But it doesn't ever frustrate you.
I mean I would think it's more just frustrating that
you're still the first, right, Like, how come you're still
the first so often? Right? The reason I am still
the first so offense because the playing field still isn't
(02:32):
level for communities of color period in the story, I mean,
we didn't even get our first black female general in
the Marine Corps until last year. Does that mean there
was never a black woman qualified or a black woman
never became It was cream the crop. No, but access
and exposure to whatever it is in any industry is
(02:52):
absolutely key. I mean Bessie Coleman, the first black pilot
male or female, couldn't even get licensed here in America.
Had to go over to France, learn how to speak
French and get her license in France because she couldn't
get it here in America. So, you know, we have
a ways to go from being kidnapped from our communities,
(03:13):
brought over, h made into slaves, and property, raped, hung
cast raight. I know I'm getting kind of graphic here,
but like for people to really understand where black people
have come from, I mean, even once blacks were free,
that a lot of dead sharecropping, which is living on
the same land, working that land, and giving all the
(03:33):
crops to the owner to be able to live on
the land. Right then we were three fifths of a person,
which meant you couldn't vote because you have to be
five fifths a whole person. So just to bring it
around to this whole you know, black lives matter. That's
happening right now, and this is not a political conversation.
This is about our humanity, our character as a country.
Who are we as a people when we say black
(03:55):
lives matter? Me and I could not agree more with you.
And we feel so strongly that the people who say,
oh wow, black lives matter, it's like where where have
you been? And why haven't you been thinking this way
before the last few months. How do you react to
people who seem surprised? Sometimes I think it's like, okay,
you really And sometimes people live in communities where they
(04:21):
just don't see it and they haven't been exposed to it,
or they haven't had friends that were close to them
that shared those stories. I do have tons of stories
before I was a police officer, as a police officer,
after being a police officer, but one of the ones
that I really remember my dad was teaching me how
to drive. I was sixteen. He said, all right, pull over,
I'm gonna ask you a question. It's not gonna be
(04:41):
on the test, but it's the most important one. I said, okay.
He said, what do you do if you get stopped
by the police? Said? Hands visible? Tenant too? That's right,
he said, he said, but damn, what if I didn't
do anything wrong, It doesn't matter. My dad didn't want
me to be right. He just wanted me to come
home that night. Right. So when we talk about black
lives matter, I doubt many white parents have that conversation
(05:04):
with their kids. When you think about buy a bag
of skittles and walking home Trayvon Martin or jogging down
the street a Mode Aubrey, just a couple of hours
from where I live. I mean I don't even jug
out of my outside of my neighborhood anymore. I mean
sleeping in your bed, Brianna Taylor, I mean, you can't eat,
you can't sleep, you can't job, Like, what can you
do and actually still feel safe in your own home,
(05:27):
in your own bed. So this is total surprise. I
did not expect our conversation to go off like this
from from the very from jump. But it I think
it speaks to our leadership in our communities and our
companies um and from us internally, right and it and
(05:49):
it goes back to who do we want to be?
How do you decide who you want to be when
you don't have that access and representation? Right? Going back
to this, you have you being the first, How did
you decide who you want to to be when you
hadn't seen yourself? When I was a kid four years old,
worn in Chicago, I saw a cop ride in the
horse downtown. I was like, oh, I wanted to be
a cop that wrote a horse downtown. At the age
(06:10):
of six, I got my very first pony, like you right,
So who knew? I was signing up for a life
of service, you know, for enlisting in the army to
help get me ready for the police department. Because I
enlisted when I was eighteen. Can't be a cop till
you're twenty one, So I saw the military as a
strategic advantage, you know, to becoming a police officer. My
(06:32):
brothers had a dirt bike, a mop head, all kinds
of stuff, and I wanted a little scooter. My mom
was like, no, you're a girl. Was like what the
worst things she could have ever said to me. So
when I got to college and I got my student
loan and within an hour I had a Cycle Trader magazine,
and within three days I bought my very first motorcycle.
It was my first vehicle. So of course, when I
(06:53):
got on the police department motors, you know, motorcycles, because
Nashville didn't have an equestrian unit at the time, I
wasn't trying to be the first. It was exciting, it
was juicy, it was fun, it was adventurous. I wanted
to be a motorcycle cop. Like who didn't grow up
watching Emergency and Chips? What was your family like growing up?
You know speeches, I've listened to things I've read You've written.
You talk a lot about how both your dad and
(07:15):
your stepdad where military man's sounds like you had to
father figures. What was that? Like I did. My parents
got divorced at three um both got remarried, so I
had two sets of parents, and I got something from
every single parent, Like my stepmom was the party or
my dad that who I grew up with. He was
marine three tours Vietnam played for the coach when they
were in Baltimore work construction. Like, my dad was tough,
(07:37):
he was amazing, and he taught me how to be courageous.
He taught me about integrity, like we were not allowed
to if we lied, man, we got to spank him
from hell. My mom she cared a lot about what
everybody else thought. I went the exact opposite way, like,
I don't care what anybody thinks. I'm you know, I'm maverick.
I'm going for it. Oh and my father, Mr. Philosophy,
(07:57):
Like he drew a circle and he said, Okay, if
there's body of knowledge and you know what, you know,
what else is there? If there are three pieces to
the pie. I was like, you know what you don't know? Right?
And then he said, well, what's the last piece of
My brother and I are thinking, thinking, thinking my brother
sixteen months younger than me. And then finally my brother said, uh,
you don't know what you don't know? And I was like,
because he got it before I did. We were very competitive,
(08:19):
but he had me thinking about that stuff as a
kid seven eight years old, right, And I grew up
having those kind of socratic conversations where It absolutely shaped
me into the person I am today. You became apparent
five years ago. I did. Yes, I led to that decision,
and how did that happen? So I've always wanted kids,
(08:42):
But then, you know, I listened in the army. Then
I got on a police department, new job, Marine Corps,
new job, flight school, new job. Then once I graduated
from flight school, I'm in the fleet. I'm learning to
fly my combat aircraft. Not eleven happens we're on deployments.
I think that's the age old question for women, When
do you make the decision to have a kid if
(09:02):
you also have a career. Right then I got out
and I started my company. You know, when you're a
brand new entrepreneur, you're you're birthing something into the world.
You're grinding your own grind mode. So after however many years,
and it was almost ten years with my company, I said, okay,
am I going for the record year or the rewarding year.
(09:22):
And I said, the clocks ticking. If I don't pull
the trigger, there will be no trigger to pull. And
at forty one, I went through IVF and had my daughter.
Two days after my forty twond birthday. You had her
as a single mom or was their partner involved. I
did have her as a single mom, Yes, And I
got married shortly after to a woman I thought was
(09:46):
amazing at the time. But you know, divorce happens, life happens,
you know, things happen. And she, I'm sure it's still
an amazing woman. We were just not right for each other, right,
So um, it was a short marriage, divorced, and and
now it's just me. I'm my little person and she
is amazing and just love and life. What's the most
(10:07):
unexpected thing about being a mother? Oh? How much love?
The capacity of or love that my my heart truly has. Yeah,
I hear you. I have four daughters, and I had that.
I had two of them while I was starting my company,
The Riveter, and like just me not understanding what starting
a company was like because I do not come from
a family of entrepreneurs. My daughters are now six, four,
(10:29):
three and one and my company is three and a half.
And I think I look back at the last four
years and like, I don't remember it. I have three kids,
and I always say to women, there is no good time,
like there is no perfect time, and there's never going
to be a good time. And so if you're committed
to having a career and having a family, you will
figure it out. And you don't have to plan it
(10:50):
perfectly because when you try to, it never works out
that way. So, you know, it's one of those things
where I think, for if you're listening and you're thinking
about when to start your family, don't get to a
certain point on your cap table, all your personal cap table,
or some job title or you know, now at this
point you don't even need to wait for the perfect partner.
(11:11):
You can do it on your own. And that it's
one of my things that I talked about. You know,
the gutsy move right and your gut you know it's right,
It takes guts to do it, but you gotta take action.
If you don't take action, it wasn't a gutsy move,
It was just a gutsy thought. And you know, we
can only do so much thinking about it. At what
(11:31):
point do we stop waiting and engaging? So I said
I needed to engage take action when I was in
the desert before we could shoot our missiles, we had
to get permission from the ground controller right to engage.
And he would actually say, you have permission to engage. Well,
if you're at home, there are no ground controllers in life.
(11:52):
If you don't give yourself permission, who will? Who will?
So I'm talking about if you don't give yourself permission,
who Well, you've built a business and you've given your
self permission to do a lot of things. What advice
would you give to someone today who is just stuck
in life in their career? Like, how can you help
(12:13):
give yourself permission? So, first I'd say, you're not stuck,
You're just not moving. It's a conscious, intentional choice. I
was bullied as a kid growing up. I grew up
in all white neighborhood and I moved to all the
black neighborhoods. So I was different. I spoke different along
hairbet of courses. Uh, I just didn't fit in at
all whatsoever. Then junior high in high school, you know,
(12:33):
it continued, and then I got to college and I'd
already decided like I'm just my own person. But I
was very conflict avoidn't when I was a kid, especially,
I would get so frustrated and pin up because I
wouldn't say something if I felt it that I would
just burst into tears. I would just cry. But you know,
when I got into the army, I remember Lopez on
my my laundry bag, and I could rationalize anybody's bad
(12:53):
behavior right, like as well maybe there as well, maybe
that I won't say anything. But when I saw that
laundry bag and those drill shards, as were honest, and
I was like, what you She's the one that put
me through all that misery. When that inspection happened, then
I didn't have my laundry bag and I just went
off and I cussed her. It was the first time
I've ever cut somebody out in my life. And afterwards
(13:14):
I said that felt pretty good, right, And so the
being in those experiences along the adventure of life as
a cop, I couldn't just say excuse me, sir to
the drunk belligerent guy, because you just turn around and
um uh, put your hands behind your back. Right, turn around,
put your hands behind your back. I heard this woman saying,
(13:35):
I wish I couldn't remember who it was, but she said,
you had to be it until you become it, right embody,
So every day, if you don't feel courageous, do something courageous.
If you don't feel gutsy, do something gutsy every day
until it becomes Oprah says that muscle, right, the no muscle.
How hard is it for so many of us to
(13:56):
say no to something we don't want to do? Got
a diagrass for one second, and psychoanalyze the fact. I've
done a ton of research. I used to write a
lot about parenting, and one of the things that leads
to a child being afraid to speak up is spanking.
When you use spanking as a form of discipline, it
creates fear based parenting, so that that child is then
(14:17):
afraid to use their voice, to speak up to authority,
to speak out. So I wonder if that's why it
was in you always to speak up, and that's why
you would burst into tears. But then it took you
until your adult life to actually get the courage to
use your voice absolutely, And it was only through experience
(14:37):
being put in situations where it was like speak up
or deal with the consequences, speak up or deal with
the fallout. And so many times we don't have those
courageous conversations in corporate America, especially right the courageous conversation
about what's really happening, what's really going on because we
don't want to deal with the fallout. What if I
get alienated? What if I get fired? What if I
(14:58):
get a bad evaluation, What if I get demoted right?
What if I don't get the promotion? What if people
don't like me? So many facets to it. Amy Vernice
and I were on a board together and we were
in a conversation recently with someone who was afraid to
use their voice, and Vernice, very bravely, I felt, said
there were white people who house slaves in their family
(15:22):
to protect them when the underground railroad was happening, and
they risk not only their lives, but their families lives,
And so let's talk about risk. And Wow, you said
something that I think most people would be too afraid
to say. And that's one of the things I've admired
about you since I first saw you speak when we
spoke together a conference years ago. I think that most
(15:45):
people don't use their voice, and if if our world
was filled with people who did speak up, everything would
look so different, It would look completely different. But how
many times have we said um again from especially the
corporate America lands, but the community lands. Right, If you
have a seat at the table and you don't speak
up your waist in a seat, like why be at
(16:05):
the table? I fought for the right for all of
us to have that right. I did not want to
be in the military. I did not I want to
be a cop rode a horse downtown. I got in
the military by accident that saw the flyer free trip
to mty gral. I said, hey, that fits the budget free,
soe sono. After I got involved, I saw that it
could be the strategic advantage that it was. It was
during that time that I also saw the black woman
(16:27):
in a flight suit, which life changing, completely changed my life.
In that moment, I did not see myself in that role.
I've been flying since I was five or six to
go see my dad, but I've never seen a black pilot,
and I definitely never seen a black female pilot. Now,
shouldn't have taken seeing a black female pilot for me
to want to be a pilot? Well, No, I wanted
(16:49):
to be a cop that rode the horse downtown. But again,
access to exposure. I've had an amazing life, an amazing adventure.
The Marine Corps was really tough. It was definitely the
boys club. It was not like being on the police department,
and I thought it would be. So it was a
rude awakening once I got there when people didn't like
me just because of I can't be standing up like
(17:11):
just based on who I am when I walk in
the room, you do not want me there. That was
a huge awakening. Talk about don't ask, don't tell, and
it's impact on your lane. So that's funny. When I
first enlisted in the Army, they actually asked the question
are you homosexual? And I lied. But by the time
I was in the Marine Corps, don't ask, don't tell
(17:32):
it was in place they didn't ask, I didn't tell
what you could probably tell. Oh good, and uh, you know,
I really didn't hide a lot about who I was
at all. Um. But the difference was if John came
to work and we were all talking about what we
did for the weekend, John would say, oh, yeah, I
(17:53):
took my wife and the kids to the park, blah
blah blah. I couldn't say I took my wife to
the park. I would just have to say I went
to the park with a friend, or I went to
the park with my family. So, you know, a lot
of times people saying, well, why do you have to
walk around and pronounce that you're gay. It's not about that.
It's just about being able to be just like anybody
(18:16):
else and have the same protections and rights and liberties
as anyone else. Who is my American sister a brother.
That's such a great point. I read a really interesting
essay that you wrote in publication by the U. S.
Marine Corps after the End, Don't Ask, Don't Tell. I
believe that was your kind of, as you said, like
your public coming out in that essay, even though you've
been out of the military for some years well, and
(18:37):
I think when I wrote that, I was still in
When I wrote that, it was really close in there,
like that transition and everything. What went into your decision
to write that essay the same decision that went into
mind that when I answered the phone in the squadron
and it was the San Diego Tribune and they asked
if they could interview me, and it felt like the
(18:59):
acid bomb exploded in my stomach because I knew if
I said yes, I'd be skylining myself yet once again.
And my squadron, Oh, you think you're special, And if
I didn't, there would be so many people that didn't
get the same vision inspiration, uh that I did when
(19:20):
I walked into that tent and I saw that black
woman in a flight suit. So sometimes I say, and
I heard this somewhere when you were a pioneer in
the wild West. Sometimes you get arrows in your back.
And what was that fallout? Like? I got extra duty.
I didn't get put on the flight schedule as much.
The guys, of course, had their comments, Oh, you know,
you just think you're this, You think you're that. I mean,
(19:42):
my commanding officer even called me into his office and said,
Lieutenant Armor, why do they want to interview you? What
makes you special? What makes you so special? I said,
I'm not special. I'm just like all the other copilots
in the squadron. I just want to be the best
pilot that I could be. And if I may speak freely,
if someone graduates from Harvard or Princeton and no one
(20:05):
has ever graduated from Harvard or Princeton, and my family
before we're gonna have a party. We're gonna celebrate because
no one in my family has done that. My community
is just celebrating because no one had done this. So
I don't know if that's sunken or if it made
an impact or not. But um, you know, for people
to say, oh, well, people have been doing it for years, No,
(20:27):
white guys have been doing it for years. Everyone hasn't
been doing it for years, and everyone didn't even have
the access to do it for years. And when we
see things happening now, how are we standing up against
what's wrong or are we just looking the other way?
Did you have a mentor or a sponsor in the military, Yes, many,
(20:47):
And there was not a black female pilot in the
military right or the Marine Corps rather, which meant all
of my mentors and sponsors and champions did not look
like me, whether they were white, black, man, woman. And
I am a huge believer that you should have mentors
(21:09):
inside and outside of what you're doing right inside your organization,
outside your organization, inside your industry, outside your industry, look
like you, don't look like you. So you get that
perspective from different angles to really see a situation more
objectively than we would through just our own filter. What
(21:31):
was the Marine Corps training like? I think there's so
many myths out there and we imagine it from movies,
but what was it actually like? It was just like
the movies women g I Gene. Okay, maybe not like
Gig because I didn't go through seal training. It was
crazy tough. I mean I was always a slow runner.
I was not. I was always in the turtle route.
(21:52):
When I graduated from Officer Canada School in the United
States Marine Corps, I could run anywhere anytime. I'm all day.
I mean I was a piece of lean meat and gristle.
That's it. Like there was an ounce of fat on
me and my body just felt amazing. And I mean
(22:13):
I got on the bodybuilding team power lifter. I mean,
I was always an athlete, right. I lifted waits during
college and things. But even when I went through the
Army and Police Academy, it was very tough on me physically.
Officer Candet's school was tough on me physically, but the
pressure was so much where they pushed your body so
far to the limit that it had no recourse but
(22:36):
to adapt what to day in the life of a marine.
Let's see if I can remember that far back back
when I was young. One of the things that scared
me to death is I'm not a morning person and
wake up in the morning was at four thirty. Yeah,
we were eating breakfast by five thirty, Yeah, every morning,
and I said, oh my god, I'm gonna die. I
was also a very slow eater. And you've seen all
(22:57):
the TV, you know, like you know, you're seven, and
uh so we get up at four thirty, we get
our gear on, we get outside, we march over to
the breakfast hall. We stand in life forever you eat breakfast.
And one of the things I learned was how to
study in the military. So we had our book of knowledge,
you know, and I started taking pages out of it
and putting it in my pocket. And everywhere I went,
(23:19):
I would always study, study, study, study for the test, right,
And that followed me into flight, the basic school and
then flight school, and now even in my own business,
I was able to create my own little curriculums to
learn certain things, like whether it's marketing or this or
the copy or whatever, because I've been put in that
situation of having to uptake huge, large amounts of knowledge before.
(23:41):
So you eat breakfast. I was not a breakfast eater,
like and you know, pancakes and all that's the eggs
and sausages and we're getting then we're getting ready to
go pet for physical fitness for an hour, hour and
a half after three days of being starving and going
and working out, and I started eating pancakes and bacon
and sausage and uh. Then we'd have a period of
(24:04):
instruction in the classroom where we learned certain things, and
we go out into the field, the field, meaning we'd
go to field exercises out in the woods with our weapons,
and we'd have lunch. Sometimes it was out in the
field as an m r. E. Meal ready to eat.
Sometimes it was in the chow hall, and then there
was dinner. Then you'd get back. You'd maybe take a
(24:25):
shower hopefully, But I remember my very first shower was
maybe twenty seconds twenty five seconds long. And I knew
it was going to be like that because they tell
you get in the shower. They run everybody in a
line like get out, like literally get in getting yelling.
Oh there was yelling, There was dying. Why is that not?
That is such a damn question. Why is there six
(24:54):
four three and one. There's no deep couch sitting. You
don't just sit back on the couch. You were on
the edge of the couch because one of them being
ready do something. There's always yelling there's always yelling in
the beginning. Anyway, It's not always like that, but in
the beginning it is because they're really indoctrinating you. They
are breaking you down. It's us against them to where
(25:14):
we depend on each other and we bond as a
team and we come together as a team, and we're
in our leadership's role where we're leading our teams. You're
not an individual anymore. You can't even say I had
to say candidate Armor Canada Armor requests to go to
the bathroom. Right. He used to have friends from us
(25:40):
from OCS. Actually I do. I haven't kept in touch
with them like I should, but yes, in the Basic school,
I just had dinner with a guy that I was
in the Basic school with, which is where you go
right after after candidate school. Every Marine Corps officer goes
through that school before they go off to their specialty,
because every Marine is a rifleman. Right and Ken geticky. Uh,
(26:03):
he was actually over the company and he made me,
one of the platoon leaders talk about ahead of his time,
when this gut took diversity, inclusion and belonging. He's just
amazing and it was so cool to see him after
twenty two years. A month and a half ago we
had dinner together. I mean, he must be so proud
(26:25):
of where you are today. You started this incredible corporate
leadership company. Can you tell us a little bit about
it and the names of the companies that you've spoken at.
How did you get all these clients? So I've spoken
for companies like Wells, Fargo, Bank America, uh Selgene, Target
(26:45):
Capital one e y Fiser. I mean, I've been very
blessed when it comes to you know, Fortune fifty thousand
companies that I speak for on that foundation of permission
to engage gutsy leadership right, defining digital moment, which has
to do with the gutsy move right Blockbuster, you know,
(27:07):
when they're defining digital moment, was here I eat buying Netflix?
They're they're launching they weren't looking out. I mean, this
is the c suite, like, this is the senior leadership, right.
But how do you go from being fly girl to
come out of the military and suddenly you don't just
be blessed and then you have Fortune fifty cards? How
(27:28):
do you get there? That's true? So that's that's a
longer story, but I'm gonna sum that up real quick.
I was on a battlefield where I was fighting real enemy.
People were trying to kill me and take me out
of the sky. Right Well, here at home, that's the
battlefield of life. And there are a lot of parallels
and being decisive, being committed, being situationally aware, being intentional, leading,
(27:52):
speaking up, preparing, planning, and I think that's the foundation.
It's it's all about the fame work right. The flight plan,
a flight plan for success for life, because when the
crap hits the fan, as long as you have the framework,
you can flex to that, flex that get back on
course and accomplish the mission, whether that's healthcare, tech company
(28:14):
or stay at home mom. When we have our plan
for the day, things go a whole lot smoother than
when we don't know what the heck we're doing and
how we're gonna get it done, and it can be
very overwhelming. When I was making that transition, honestly, I
just wanted to be an inspiration and I wanted to
be a role model and inspiration for people of color
and especially women. And I knew I had something to
(28:36):
offer for women in corporate America, especially women in STEM right,
women in tech. About the b gutsy, be bold, be prepared,
be confident, stand up, because I'd gone from this kid
who was bullied, who didn't have a voice, to becoming
a woman that felt empowered and strong and courageous and gutsy.
And I had so many women coming up to me
(28:57):
saying how did you get there? How did you get there?
So instead of sending them through boot camp or off
your candidate school, I just take them through different experiences.
And I think, actually, right now I have the Gutsy
Confidence Project right where women who feel sometimes you know,
they feel like they have a lack of confidence, bouts
(29:19):
of it right or imposter syndrome. And it feels like
the more senior a woman is that I'm talking to,
the more this happens, and like, what are you talking about?
You were so qualified, you were so amazing, you were
so strong. But on the inside, we feel like at
any moment we're gonna get exposed. People are gonna find
out we really don't know everything we say we do.
(29:40):
All our ducks aren't in a row. And like a
job position will come out a promotion, right, there will
be ten qualifications, a woman will have nine point five
and saying oh no, I'm not qualified. A guy will
have half of one and said, I'm going for it.
Why why I even made up these T shirts? A
close mouth don't get fit. If we don't speak up,
if we don't step up, all we got is know
(30:01):
is it? My granny always said that close my mouth,
don't get any one more question before are lightening round?
What was it like in a round? That's such a
broad question, but I mean, thank you for your service. Truly,
a lot of people have never gotten to speak to
a veteran service there, honor to serve first of all,
to be able to go over there for my country.
And as far as the heat goes, turn on your oven,
(30:22):
put it on royal high, put your head in, throw
sand in your face, and turn on the blow dryer
on high. That's probably what the heat felt like. And
it was an obscure, crazy environment. I thought it was
going to be this whole like band of brothers, like
we're in it together. And at a certain point I
(30:43):
was walking back from the gym, the sun was scorching
down on my skin. It was a hundred and twenty
three degrees. I was having problems with the guys in
the squadron. It was horrible. I was having problems with
my girlfriend back in the state, thousands of miles away,
and I was just having a horrible time right just
in life. I felt miserable and there was no escape
(31:04):
because every day was there. I couldn't go to the
movies or go to a restaurant, or take the weekends
off or oh well, walk away from like you're there
in the environment seven And I just remember saying, God,
I wish this was out of the squadron. I wish
this deployment was over. God, wish I was at the
Marine Corps. And then I just stopped and the dust
was fine, like talcum powder, and it builded up around
(31:25):
and I took a huge breath and I could feel
the heat, the searing sand going in my lungs and
it was painful, and I said, that is a breath
I will never have again. And as painful as it was,
it reminds me that I'm alive, that I have an
opportunity to change my situation and my circumstances. And if
(31:49):
I'm not careful, I will wish this squadron away. I
wish this deployment away, I wish the Marine Corps way.
I will have wished my life away, and in the
I will never forget it. And in that moment, I said,
if I feel pain, it's just growing pain period in
the store, and I will learn something from it. Because life,
I'm just being prepared for the next mission. I'm being
(32:13):
called to. So well, I'm not crying, so that's okay, Um,
I think that's what I mean. No, but really, this
is in your eyes, is just missing in your eyes,
And yeah, it makes me cross sometimes too. It's a
lesson that everyone could use in so many instances of
their life, particularly now when we're dealing with this collective
grief of loss of life, of loss of our community.
(32:34):
A lot of people have lost their jobs or their businesses.
And I think, like, if you're trying to frame it,
his growing pains is really it's really profound. Yeah, all right,
lightning round tears. Sam has no emotions. I don't know
if you know that anyway. That's me, that's our that's
our role. I'm not sensitive here. Amy always ask what
(32:58):
your morning routine is, but I really want to know
what your sleep routein is. That's so good, it's so funny.
I was thinking that I haven't been getting enough sleep
so I wear my fitbit almost all the time. But
the band broke, so I've been off my sleep routine.
And I like to go to bed when my daughter
goes to bed or shortly thereafter, because I love to
get eight or nine hours of sleep. Before COVID, I
(33:18):
was getting up and going to the five thirty in
the morning class A CrossFit. Cross bitters were intense, were dedicated.
We're like crazy. I mean it was totally by cup
of tea and I'd come back to the shower, jump
on the computer, do whatever kind of work. Or if
I was traveling that day, pack my bag, jump on
the plane, head out to my event, come back hopefully.
(33:41):
I was taking my golf clubs with me if it
was summertime, taking my snowboard with me if it was
winter and I was going in Colorado or Whistler. And
I always tried to infuse fun and adventure in my day.
Looks very different now because I'm flying a desk which
I've never had a desk job in my life, and
it's about killing me. But we'll make it through. What
(34:01):
are you reading ninety day launch island Wise Consulting. Oh,
I was trying to make it through Oh that's so good. Gosh.
If you have prepared me, I would have had the
books that i'm reading. Oh the twelve week year. Okay.
So when I was in Iraq, I read all the time,
and I would go through a book every two days.
Every two and a half days, I was picking up
a new like novel book. I would read through a
(34:23):
book that fast. But when I got back, and especially
when I started my company, I was reading so much
on business that now I'm just I soaked up business
books like The e Menth by Michael Gerber, the Four Agreements,
Miguel Release, the Celestian Prophecy. That's probably as close to
if you were to say fiction, um that I probably
get these days, because if I'm reading fiction, I could
(34:46):
be reading something that is enhancing my personal development, that
is growing me. I'm looking at I'm I'm a huge
believer that fiction enhances your personal development even more than nonfiction.
If you read a fiction book after having read all
of this nonfiction, you will be blown away. I'm gonna
send you like three recommendations. Okay, but that's what Netflix
(35:06):
is for. What are you watching right now? Well, I
just want just watching the last season of one I'm
a huge sci fi buff. I just watched Black Lightning.
I watched but um, I have a Duvernet, which was
crazy and amazing. And of course I watched Barbie and Friends.
Do you let your daughter watch that Barbie garbage? A
(35:29):
little something happened and she got exposed to it. And
I tell you what it's all about, access and exposure.
Has she never watched that iPad or TV? Uh, she'd
probably be a different kid right now. But you know what,
We're all in her journey. I'm just her shepherd. She
doesn't even belong to me. I was just blessed to
be able to bring her into the world into help
guide her for these first few years as she goes
(35:51):
off to learn her own lessons and discover her own things.
And I'm just so excited she chose me to be
her mom. What's your childcare situation? I have a nanny
and my mom stays with us a whole lot. She
lives in Memphis, but she'll come down here and stay
for months. And yeah, yeah, again, super blessed on that front.
And I'm not religious, I'm spiritual, um, but I absolutely
(36:13):
believe in higher power and that we're not going through
all of this for nothing. And one of my favorite
sayings is the universe is conspiring for my best interest
at all times, and it's up to me to see
the opportunity in the obstacle. Napoleon Hill in the book
Thinking Grow Rich n six said, most of the time,
(36:35):
opportunities to come disguised as obstacles. Diversity is the mother
of innovation. So Vitamin oh, baby, Vitamin oh, obstacles or opportunities?
All right, lately you're turring wow. Okay, okay, okay, I'm
still trying to digest some of that vitamin oh right now.
But you, my goodness, you are such a light, and
(36:56):
thank you so much for your service, Thank you for
the edible, phenomenal black queen that you are. I am
so inspired the amount of people that we've interviewed. I'm
just getting more in touch with so many different areas
that I don't even know existed. And this has just
been the most emotional, incredible phenomenal right in my life.
You being a black woman, be being a black man.
(37:19):
I am currently working on emotional intelligence and open up
a door so that other black men can have an
arena where we can actually get vulnerable and talk about
things you just don't talk about. I want to know
what are you doing as a black woman to allow
other people of our ethnic group to have access to
things that we just don't have access to, to be
(37:40):
previous information that we're not privy to. Now, that's really
good a lot of researchers out there. When you look
at the average women owned business owned by a white woman,
it's a hundred and eighty three thousand revenue. Then you
look at the woman of color, it's eighty seven thousand
a year revenue. And the average black woman owned business
was twenty seven thousand dollars a year in revenue compared
to a hundred eighty three and a white women. So
(38:01):
it's very stark difference. And I started this thing called
flag Girl Fridays just actually at the end of COVID
where I said, well, I shouldn't say the end, but
I said, the rest of doesn't have to be horrible.
For some people, it's been the worst year their their life.
So how do we create the best year and create
the breakthrough even in the midst of obstacle? Right where
(38:23):
do we find the opportunity? So I created Flaggirl Fridays
with a very low barrier to entry because it really
is about access and exposure and being able to have
access to the resources and people and mentors that can
help us move forward. UM. I try to be very
active on social media and be vulnerable and actually speaking
(38:44):
about things that matter with some amount of depth. But
I think it's important for those of us who have
a different perspective and a little insight that our brothers
and sisters may not. It's income upon us to share it, right,
because if you think about generational PTSD that has been
(39:05):
passed down through the generations, they talk about abuse being
generational and you had to break the cycle. That's all
we knew at one point, for four hundred and one years,
we haven't even been out of slavery half the time
we were in it. I mean, my grandfather still talked
to me about his aunt that was a slave. You know, Sam,
you talked about spankings. Many black families spanked their kids
(39:26):
because that's the discipline that was done to them, because
it was done to their grandmother and their great grandmother.
They're right, we have a ways to go, and it's
gonna take the people who have some sense of being
awake to wake other folks up to create those moments
of oh man, I never looked at it like that.
(39:46):
Thank you for sharing that, because now I think about
that differently. Along with access, equity and the opportunity that
we haven't had before. A couple of things that stuck
out to me me from that interview, we're how unafraid
Bernice is and how she talked about access, and she
(40:07):
also just has this unbelievable optimism. Access is really important.
She talks a lot about representation and access right that
if you can't see what you want to be, it's
hard to imagine being it, and then it's also hard
to imagine those doors opening for you. The thing that's
really amazing about Bernice is even though she's lived this
really hard life and done really brave and amazing and
incredible things and been incredibly successful, she doesn't stop arrest
(40:30):
on it. She wants to make sure that she can
be representation and she can be access for her community,
for women, for women of color. And that's really hard work.
It's so all said, and it's so true, and I
think that what gets her through it is is your attitude,
which is truly extraordinary and contagious. I don't think I
could be in a bad mood around her. I wasn't
in a great mood when we started this interview, and
(40:51):
now I am. I love hearing that. Thank you all
for listening, and thanks for following us on social media
and we love interacting with you. Thank you to our
production team at Large Media and our podcast associate Emma
Hard and our male perspective Blue Burns. And this podcast
is powered by Sam's company, park Place Payments at park
(41:12):
place payments dot com and Amy's company The Riveter at
the Riveter dot Co. And I just talked about myself
in the third person. That is against the law. You
break all the rules, Amy
Hosts And Creators
Samantha Ettus
Amy Nelson
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.