February 9, 2023 • 51 mins
This week, we take a brief pit stop in our crazy ride through 1992 for something extra special: an intimate chat with Tori Amos, whose groundbreaking debut solo album, Little Earthquakes, paired pianos and guitars — and shook the music world to its core.
In an expanded interview from episode 5, the singer-songwriter discusses the uphill battle she faced to get the record made, the lasting impact of her very personal tracks “Silent All These Years” and “Me and a Gun,” how being a woman in the music industry has changed, and her work as the first spokesperson for the Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network (RAINN).
Be sure to tune in next week for our final episode, which explores how in 1992 musicians like George Michael, Madonna, Elton John, Queen, U2, and TLC confronted the AIDS crisis head-on.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Where Were You in ninety two is a production of
I Heart Radio. A special note this episode features themes
of sexual assault and may not be suitable for all listeners.
Welcome to Where Are You In nine two, a podcast
in which I Your host Jason Lamfier, look back at
the major hits, one hit wonders, shocking news stories, and
(00:23):
irresistible scandals that shaped what might be the wildest, most eclectic,
most controversial twelve months of music ever. This week, we
take a brief pit stop in our crazy ride You
for something extra special, an intimate chat with singer songwriter
Torey Amos, who paired pianos and guitars and shook the
(00:45):
music world to its core with her debut solo album,
Little Earthquakes. In an expanded interview from episode five, we
discussed the origins of the record, the uphill battle Amos
face to get it made, the powerful response she received
to stand out track It's Like Silence All These Years,
and Me and a Gun, and her work as the
first spokesperson for the rape Abuse in sust National Network
(01:07):
or RAIN. Be sure to tune in next week for
our final episode, which explores how in musicians like George
Michael Madonna, Elton, John Queen, YouTube and TLC confronted the
AIDS crisis head on. So the first question I'm asking
(01:32):
guests on this show is a very simple one, but
also a very very weighted, very layered one, I think,
which is where were you mentally physically? I was releasing
a record called Little Earthquakes, and so I reckon I
was probably in UM the UK, going back and forth
(01:58):
to the States and the u K. Early and nine
two and the record came out and I started to
go on a world tour. But it was a rocky road.
Of course, it was not. It wasn't the easiest. The
conception was not easy, the release wasn't easy. UM, and
you definitely had to to fight for this record. Yeah,
(02:21):
I had to fight. I had to fight for the record.
And the other thing is it was a process. So
it really took about four years, if I'm if I'm
being fair and accurate about the whole thing. And it
happened in stages. So UM, the first demos that that
I was doing, I was doing with a producer called
(02:44):
Eric Ross, and then David Sergerson got involved and produced
UM a bunch of songs which included songs on the
record like Crucify and Silent all these years in winter
and um. When we turned in the record then it
(03:04):
was it was not accepted. So the suggestion was from
a producer to the head of Atlantic at the time,
it was Doug Morris. The suggestion was take all the
pianos off and put guitars on, and Doug and I
were able to come to a different outcome, which was
(03:25):
I would turn in a few more produced tracks, and
so I turned to Eric Ross and musicians that I
knew in l A Friends to come and collaborate. And
then that was the next stage. I love in In
In Resistance, which is your latest book, which is from
twenty UM, which I think came out right really after
(03:47):
the pandemic struck. Yes it did you address the conversation
you had to have with the Muses about using your
arsenal what you had in your arsenal at that time.
I think you were and using the arsenal that you
had to go up against these these label exacts and
(04:12):
and and fight to keep your voice and keep the
piano as and you know, integral, integral part of this record.
So tell me about that conversation that you had you
know with the muses and and how you got your
way in the end. Well, at the time, people, if
(04:32):
you weren't around then and aware of what was happening
in the music world, you might not know this. And uh,
the piano was not cool. So Elton and Billy it was.
They were still touring the world and they were, you know,
these legends where it was um embraced and accepted because
(04:54):
of their track record. They've been around a long long time.
But really, uh, what was happening in the music scene
was women like Tracy Chapman and Susanne Vega. The guitar
um was being embraced, which is great, but the piano
was seen as some kind of well, let's put it
(05:17):
this way, not part of the Seattle sound not. It
wasn't considered, oh, this could stand next to grunge and
be badass. It was not seen as that. So I
think it's really important that people realize the context and
the narrative. So it was my mission two because I
(05:40):
had ditched the piano on a record I made in
eight Night that bombed, called White Antry Read. So I followed,
uh what people were saying at the time, which has
embraced the synthesizer and and embraced this other type of sound.
And you know the piano's history that to leave it
back in the seventies. So in my dark night of
(06:04):
the soul after that album bombed, I crawled back to
the piano and realized that I had to find out
who I was as an artist, as a human being
through the piano. That's where these songs came. I didn't
know my identity Jason anymore, because I had turned myself
into so many different people that I was, and I'd
(06:26):
worn so many masks to try and get out of
the bar room that, um, I didn't know who I
was anymore. So the piano had to take me back
to when I was five years old studying at the
Peabody Conservatory and and take me back to a magical
time when when music was magic. And I had completely
(06:47):
burned that to the ground and you wanted desperately to
revisit it and bring it back. And then you were
met with resistance. Yes, I'm tapping the book, um, And
you know I think that when you when you titled
the book resistance, you I think you meant from both perspectives,
like we're met with resistance but you you have to
(07:08):
resist and maintain your autonomy and maintain your vision. And
this record I think encapsulates that so perfectly. You write
a really detailed account of how Girl, the song Girl
was not one of the original cuts, you submitted one
of the ten to twelve original cuts. You and you
(07:29):
went home, You're with your parents, and it came to you.
It came to you. You know, girls started to speak
to you, the users started to speak to you, and
you talk about how Girl ended up being salvation, a
bridge really that that helped get you to the you know,
from the original little Earthquakes, your original vision, to a
(07:50):
vision that was a little bit more what that, you know,
the label one so funny about that. So Girl was
documenting what I was going through in my battle at
that time. I was having the battle. Um. But of
course I have to honor Doug Morris. He he said,
(08:11):
go on, here's here's some money, UM. And he he
was honest, he said, you and the producer you worked
with UM for the first set of cuts blew the budget.
Of course I didn't see any of that money. But
moving on, so we didn't have a lot, but hey,
how we were going to make these four tracks, and
(08:32):
I didn't know what the four tracks were going to be,
but I knew they needed to have something different than
the twelve I had turned in. So not knowing sometimes
as a as a songwriter, you you have no idea
where you're going or how you're going to get there.
So the best thing is to listen. The strongest thing
a songwriter can do is to sit and listen. You're
(08:57):
listening to the muses, you're observing, You're trying to be
in the moment, and and you're hoping that you're going
to be I don't know, lead to this magical sonic place.
And sometimes they only give you a two bar phrase
those music. Sometimes you don't you know, you don't get
the whole song. But girl was reflecting what I was
(09:19):
living at the time, which was she's been everybody else's girl.
Maybe one day she'll be her own. And it's like, yes, yes,
t a it, Come on, You've you've got to stop
being um such a sponge and just saying Okay, I'll
(09:39):
twist myself and turn myself into whatever you want. Just
because you want to leave the bar room. What if
you never leave the bar room? You need to go
there because if you can accept that, then you will
write what you need to write for your soul, not
for somebody else having an opinion. It's just an opinion,
(10:03):
and usually they're wrong. Usually they're wrong. So then the
four songs came and by that time I turned them in.
But Doug had found Silent all these years. He had
listened to it going home in his car one night
and he got it. The penny dropped and he said, Okay,
(10:23):
I realized this, this was one of the original twelve.
But I get it. I get it now, and I
think you need to go to England. And I went,
pardon what what? He said? Yes, I have a counterpart
over there called Max Hole East West Records in London,
and he will get it. He will understand and his
(10:46):
team will understand what to do with this, and that
was the next phase of the journey. It's fascinating too.
When I read that, it made total sense to me
because I thought, this is a country where Wuthering Heights
by Cape is one of your heroes, one of my heroes.
Guest was the number one song, which that would just
never happened in America. So you know, not to say
that Silent all these years was derivative of Kate Bush
(11:09):
by any means, but it was. It's a piano based track.
It is very much a classically sounding piano led ballad, yes,
piano and orchestra, and that not one note changed on
that from when we turned it in. UM. I think
it might have just had a different mix. But I
(11:29):
don't mean a dancer, I don't mean a remix. I'm
talking about just some sonic sweet names maybe you know,
boost the mids or something. But but honestly, that song
was what it was from day dot and it just
I found it really intriguing that people were gravitating towards
(11:53):
that song. And at that time, if you remember, you
must have been a young when this happened, very very young.
Was Anita Hill had just been um on television. I
saw her on television. I was in England at the time.
This was autumn of ninety one, and she said something
(12:18):
to the effect of I couldn't stay silent any longer,
something to that effect, and within two weeks, three weeks,
Silent all these years was getting played on the radio
in England. Now, sometimes when you're writing a song, you
have no idea, the um, the moment that it's going
to cross another moment. Well, she was. This was volcanic
(12:44):
what was happening with Anita Hill. And I encourage people
to read the story if you haven't read her story,
but um, she was talking about sexual assault allegedly with
a chief justice who is still a chief Justice, and um,
this was shocking the world and the courage that it
(13:05):
took for her to speak. And it just so happened
that this song silent all these years, was coming out
within a couple of weeks of this shock. So it
was really relevant at the time. And when I was
writing it, you have no idea what circumstances are going
to cross the song's path, which then becomes part of
(13:25):
the narrative. It really it took on a new relevance
as you're saying a new meeting, and it's sort of
almost became bigger than you. And it has continued to
resonate through the ages you can apply that song to.
You know, just a few years after Anitaho, we had
(13:46):
Monica Lewinsky and then she was silenced. But then she
came forward, what two decades later, and she's like, excuse me,
my voice was lost, and all of this in this
Clinton scandal. Let me tell my side of the story.
Now that's right. I started to realize people would stand
(14:29):
after the concert by the stage door to tell me
their story, and that began this this kind of exchange
that's been happening now for thirty years, which is people.
It's pretty humbling when you think they're they're telling you
some of their they're very intimate experiences or fears or
(14:53):
um some people even saying I don't feel worthy of
a story because my story he isn't one of assault.
And so then and you have to have compassion and
understand that everyone has a story and it's unique to you,
and it's and it's important. Everyone's story is important, but
(15:17):
it needs to be valued. And it really um opened
me up to understanding that everybody has a story to
tell and each one needs to be valued. Was that
a breakthrough moment for you and fans responded to that
song that way and came to speak to you backstage,
(15:37):
or was there another moment where you realized, oh, wow,
my music is really touching people. The music from Little
Earthquakes is really touching people in a way that my
music has not touched people before I was learning about it.
Then and it was humbling. Um, because I'm a conduit
(15:58):
for the muses. I do not write these on my own,
I promise you, hand on my heart, um, because I
know when I write things on my own, I can
do that. I have the toolbox to do that. But
it doesn't it's not the it's not the same, it's
not the same without that collaboration. And I think that there. Ah,
(16:22):
they they're tough teachers sometimes and they demand whomever they're
working with, and they they're working with all kinds of
people in all kinds of genres, as we both know. Um.
But I think it was when a young girl heard
(16:42):
a song called Me and a Gun, which is a
song a little Earthquakes about a sexual assault, and she
fainted during the song. Um. And after the show they
had taken her backstage and she told me her story,
and she said, can I please come on the road.
(17:03):
I'll do anything. I'll do any I work in the
kitchens or whatever I can do. Um, because my stepfather
raped me last night. He will tomorrow night and when
I get in tonight he will. And so I was,
of course, you're coming on the road with me and
we'll figure it out now, Naively Jason. Of course I
(17:24):
don't understand legal. Of course I didn't. I'm not a psychiatrist.
I didn't understand what was happening, but I saw the
terror in the eyes and in my UM. Well, it's
just trying to do something. You're trying to do something.
So I get a call from legal coming into the
(17:46):
venue saying you will be arrested for kidnapping. You are
crossing state line tonight on the buses and you will
be arrested. And at the time, there just wasn't UM
a place where I knew where to call. Now I
know when she walked out that I watched her go.
(18:08):
I've never seen her again. I've never heard from her again,
and it plagues me to this day because we have
no idea UM. But what she inspired was me then
galvanized to work with RAIN and I was I was
(18:30):
asked to be there for spokesperson and UM to work
with that organization. It's still around and it's a national hotline. UM.
Can you tell listeners what what RAIN is UM in
case they're not familiar with it. RAIN is UM Rape
Abuse and Incests National Network one D six five six
(18:53):
hope and UH. There are trained people there to take
the calls. They have a military section, UM and then
they have a civilian section. Uh. And during the pandemic,
what we learned is that we've had so many calls
from younger people because of the house arrest and kids
(19:19):
not being able to reach out to people who can
then help them, so that they've they've been isolated. And
that's one of the tragedies of this pandemic. In the lockdowns,
it's I mean, you've already touched on two very raw
and painful tracks from that from the record Little earth Quakes,
(19:43):
um Me and a Gun is a pivotal track, a
touchdown in your career, and I mean you've spoken already
about the significance of it, and now it resonated with people.
Take me to that moment when you knew you had
to write that song, where you had to include it
(20:04):
on the record, when the music spoke tuneside Tori, this
is maybe arrest, This is maybe going to be the
most challenging moment of your career, but we got to
do this. Yes. Uh. There are moments when you're guided
(20:25):
and I was guided to do this acapella UM. And
there's a level of trust that you have with the
muses in the moment, because my goodness, when you're creating
and talking about some of the harrowing things UM, which
(20:50):
some of the songs over the years cover cover difficult.
You know, the skin is off, we're on zipping, getting
to those deep emotions that people have been harboring their
whole lives, and you're and you're going into the wound
and how you go into that wound and then how
you hopefully the song walks with someone through their dark night.
(21:16):
You know that that is what the muses um do
and and so being part of that, there's a huge
responsibility because you're thinking, if I get this wrong, if
I get this wrong, if I tell this story wrong,
then what I don't want to do harm. I don't
want to take somebody to a place and get them shattered.
(21:40):
You want to take them to a place of recognition
of Okay, this might have happened to him, to her,
to them, and then they foind they find something empowering
by it. Now, maybe there's a long journey that is
to happen from victim to survivor maybe there's a lot
(22:03):
of work that will have to be done, but the
first step is always acknowledging and and not running away
you know from from those um tragic moments that that
that sometimes people want to block out. So working with
(22:23):
Rain all these years has really taught me. Taught me
a lot. And the people that are on that front
line every day, UM wow, what a commitment that they have.
But it all started by a song that then people, um,
people embraced and then told their story. To me. I've
(22:47):
always been, you know, interested in why you decided to
do it acapella and if you were met with not
to go back to this word again, but resistance from
from the label, because not only did this song not
have guitars, it didn't even have pianos. It had nothing.
It was the most it was the ross thing imaginable
and the only thing I could compare it to at
(23:09):
that time. I remember, I remember Behind the Wall from
Tracy Chapman from her first record. You remember that song
I Do, which was also about I mean abuse, and
it was acapella, And I remember my father being obsessed
with that record and playing it on repeat. And I
remember that song when I always I was very very
(23:30):
very young, but I remember it would always stop me
in my tracks because it was unlike anything I had
ever heard from a pop or rock or folk musician,
and especially a female musician. It was so powerful, and so,
you know, fast forward four years later, I believe, I
believe Tracy Chapman's debut was eight eight You Bring Me
(23:55):
In a Gun and and but no, nobody was really
doing that. Nobody was really making acapella songs, especially women
who they were already brought to the side still, you
know in rock and pop music. Well, there was a
faction at the label that didn't want this song on
and and said, this is you know, this is really disturbing.
(24:17):
I'm disturbed by this. And I said, if you were
not disturbed by this, then that would be scary. You
need to be disturbed. Sometimes music wants to be disturbing.
That's what it is. So let's not resist that, let's
embrace that. But I had to really again, I had
(24:38):
to put up a resistance of capitulating. I had to
be strong. I had to stand by um the songs,
and and also I had to listen to some of
the improvements that the team wanted me to make, because
you know, we're back to babies in bathwater, just throwing
(25:00):
everything out just to dig your heels and that's not
very clever. So sometimes taking on board somebody's comment, some
someone's critique of something so that we can improve it.
And that was a huge learning curve as a creator.
When do you have a think take a think tank
where you can agree with some things and then use thinking. Well,
(25:23):
not so fast. I think we're having a knee jerk
reaction and we need to be bold and brave and
stand by the acapella track and it stays on. And
you made you made concessions. Yes, after you went back
and you said, okay, I'm not going to give you
one song my guitars, I'm leaving four, including Girl, including
(25:44):
Press Precious Things, which um, I believe you you share
a story in Resistance. UM, I think you were you
travel you headed west. You were in America at that point,
but you headed west. I think you were in the
Rockies walking and I think you said just a couple
of words came to you as you're on this hike,
or so tell me about precious Things. Well, we took
(26:06):
Eric Ross and I took a trip out west and
he was producing these four tracks with me. Um, and
I had a lot of respect for his musicality. So
we were on this trip and by now we were
in Colorado, and um, if I remember correctly, I fell
(26:28):
unto the weather. And sometimes when these things happen, it's strange,
it's almost as if as if, um, you know, you're
not in protective mode, you get worn down a bit,
whether it's m hm, the veil drops and I was
in the woods somewhere and walking somewhere, and then, like
(26:52):
we've talked about before, those muses, sometimes they just sprinkle
a few bars and the penny drops again, and you think, okay, okay,
this is something. This is not just you know, me
sing it in the shower today, which you know we
all do, and we all make up these silly songs,
(27:12):
which I make up silly song all the time. But
Precious Things. I knew she was coming to be on
the record. I knew that she was and bursting through
and um yeah, creating that was a challenge, but we
we got there. For anyone who thinks who's not as
(27:35):
familiar with your music, which that's criminal, but Victorium is
cannot rock you've never heard Precious Things, because hearing that
is revelatory. The drums alone are massive, and then the
bridge is just explosive. And also you use these voices
(27:57):
throughout the record, and you use them and precious things
you summon and girl and they almost it's a male voice,
and it almost sounds demonic. It sounds dark. And I've
always you know, I've always wondered. It really stood out
to me when I discovered this record and fell in
love with it, because I had never really heard anything
(28:17):
like it. And you know, Kate Bush experiment again to
bring up Kate Bush. She experimented again with those voices
on the Dreaming and on Hounds of Hounds of Love,
and they're a little bit of that in this and
this record. Can you tell me a little bit about that?
I think what was happening at the time was that
(28:40):
there was a freedom to create, because the worst thing
that I could ever imagine in music was to put
out a record and be left at be ridiculed. And
and the thing in l a that you really don't
want to catch is failure. You will not be going
(29:02):
to any parties if you have failed. And I remember
walking into a little restaurant that I always walked into,
and these people were in the music business, and as
I passed by, they laughed. They laughed at me. Um,
and I was called something like a bimbo and billboard,
(29:25):
you know it was. It was a fleeting moment because
nobody cared. Failure gets brushed under the rug and you
get swept out, you know, with the garbage, your garbage,
but not Shirley Manson, the beautiful garbage love so so
(29:45):
things like precious things of voices. I was going through, um,
you know, I was crossing the river sticks, I was
going to meet Persephone. I was in hades because I
had failed. But through the failure and being on your
(30:06):
knees and being in the muck, which has happened at
different times in my life. Not all records come from there,
but a few have um this one Scarlet's Walk and
Ocean to ocean. They've come from a place of deep
despondency and and deep heartache because you know, I'd lost myself.
(30:31):
But the truth is I had lost myself a long
time before that, Jason. I started losing myself when I
started chasing it, and when I started chasing it in
my early twenties and just saying well, I've got to
get out of the barroom, so I'll do anything to
get out, I'll I'll write any song I need to write,
(30:53):
and so, you know, talk about the fame whore, the
fame whore arch hype Um just took over my brain
and my my pen and my piano, and I allowed
her to do that. I allowed her to do that.
And so these songs and these voices that you talk about,
(31:16):
there's a there's a conjuring, and there's a there's a
narrative that I was trying to tell sonically, I was
trying to explain the level of emotions that were happening
at the time. It to me, has always felt like
this internal tug of war with you and your past,
(31:40):
with you and what people want you to be versus
what you want to be. Their voice versus your voice.
They're dragging you down. You're looking for uplift, I'm dragging
me down. So they're actually you, you you would say those
voices are or maybe maybe maybe yes, my saboteur absolutely
(32:04):
spot on. I have to take responsibility for listening to opinions,
to chasing it. And I'm sure any artist that's listening
right now that has has thought, Okay, you know, this
is a hard slog when you get rejection after rejection
(32:26):
after rejection after rejection. We're talking years and years and
years and years and years and years. Then you go, Okay,
maybe I'm on the maybe this um singer songwriter talking
about my emotions. Maybe I'm on the wrong path. Maybe
I need to right in another way. So then you
(32:46):
start listening to what people and the labels are signing
and what they want to be, and all of a
sudden you think, Okay, well maybe I can do that.
But just because you can do it, because you have
the musicality, doesn't mean anybody's going to believe you, because
(33:08):
it's disingenuous, because it's a lie. Now, I think some
people can create a character and step into that character
and it works and they have the facility to make
that happen. But that was not working for me. And
you toyed with characters later, but you were very explicit
about what you were doing. There was a whole narrative
(33:30):
for each character, and there was a purpose. It was pop,
you know, persona that was you were putting out into
the world. It was no, this is a character that's
been through this and I've had you know, a Neil
Gaiman has written a story about it. For me, and
here we Go, Here we Go. Yeah, you really wanted to,
(34:02):
Like you said, you wanted to rekindle your relationship with
the piano and you wanted this to be your your record.
You came back with Girl, Precious Things. What were the
other two tracks? Oh my goodness, you're testing me now,
I'm trying to was a little earth Quakes one because
earth quacks and tear in your Hands, Hear in your Head,
which also has guitars. Yes, um, oh, wonderful tracks. I
(34:25):
can't imagine that record not having those tracks. Looking back,
do you think, my god, I'm so happy they made
it onto the record. I don't know what it would
be without or do you absolutely? Jason? Because without them
and and Me and a Gun wasn't on the original
record that came later. Okay, so that was something else
you submitted after the guitars tracks to the guitars. You
(34:47):
gave them that so you could probably you know, were
you thinking, I'm gonna give them this so then I
get a win later m hm. When I was in England,
I wrote me in a Gun after I turned in
these four and we recorded a song called China. So um,
what had been the original twelve songs. Those songs became
(35:08):
B sides, the ones that were moved aside for the
four and then China and Manican. So yes, it's a
completely different record. So if Doug had gotten it from
the beginning, it wouldn't be what it is. So so
that's where sometimes you have to kind of go through
(35:30):
the process in the battle and out of the battle. Um,
I hung onto the pianos, but we got seven tracks
that because of his perception, um, that we wouldn't have had.
So you know, that's where the magic of a relationship
can create something good. So you talk about getting there
(35:51):
with you know, like we were talking about, um, you know,
writing press things, writing girl. What isn't addressed in Resistance
is the moment where you presented these and how you
got that green light. So tell me about that. Oh
my goodness, Um, yeah it was. It was really wonderful
(36:15):
understanding that that Doug understood, but not just he He
didn't just understand the four songs. He understood Silent all
these years and when he got it, he got it.
But he thought the four songs I turned in, we're
making the album better and he was absolutely right. So uh,
(36:40):
of course, then I went to England and then other
things started to happen, which were the other two songs.
And I did a cover of smells like teen Spirit um,
which for to take it to the piano was was
a bit shocking for some people. But the song is
so great that it could hold it. It could hold
(37:04):
a completely different read, um, and that says a lot
for the songwriting for sure. And then we were also
working on the visuals, which um were driven by the
English side. Mm hmm, tell me about the visuals. Let's
walk down that road because it was such a strong aesthetic,
(37:26):
and you did so many videos for the I mean,
I'm going to date myself a little bit, but I
had a VHS com of all the and I was
just amazed at how many videos you did for this record,
given that it wasn't you know. I mean Janet Jackson
did a bunch of videos for Rhythm Nation, but she
was Janet Jackson. She was a massive pop star, and
(37:46):
you were like, this was your first solo record, and
I can't wait just say we love those Janet. I
mean I would have. I would have had a video
for every one of them. Um that you know, that's
a pop masterpiece, right, Um. But know for you that
was so ambitious, and I'm just thinking, like in every
video really for little earthquakes, there there's a threat, there's
(38:07):
a there's a there's a common esthetic and it's it's
it's it's impressionistic. I get watercolors from it, and I
get it it's willowy and it's and I see it's
I really see its influence now too. I don't know
if you've seen some of the videos for for Taylor
Swift's Folklore and evermore, but I get some such I
(38:30):
get old school Tory vibes from from the Willow video,
and I get it um um from the Cardigan video,
and I just love to see that. The long thread,
what I will tell you is about the team, because
we have to talk about the team and their genius.
Um So, Ali's Taylor head of marketing. It always when
(38:51):
you're developing these things, you you bring there. There's a
team behind the curtain that people don't talk about, but
they're very essential for work to be what it is
and to be original. I think that's what we're talking about.
Um So, at least Taylor brought in a photographer and
(39:12):
filmmaker named Cindy Palmano and Cindy Paulmano brought in a
stylist by the name of Karen Binns, who I still
work with. And for instance, she's working with whiz Kid
right now. And Karen Binns is probably well, she's one
of the amazing thinkers. You really should talk to her
(39:32):
one time about aesthetic because she will tell you she
sees everything. This is Karen who you were walking down
the street one day talking and this is how how
we're corny girl. And Karen and I have been working
together since so um Cindy had introduced us. So therefore
you you have a mixture of of minds working together,
(39:57):
um making Silent these years video, uh, making the Winter video,
making the Crucify video, the China video, and and these
three brilliant women. Um, you know, they have to be
acknowledged and they need to be acknowledged because they were
(40:19):
doing this. So whatever has come happened in fifteen or
eighteen or nineteen or whatever by wonderful artists, great artists,
it's still really important for me to to acknowledge that
these brilliant women were thinking like this in two and
(40:42):
they should be acknowledged for that. It's I'm so happy
to hear you you bring that up, because you know,
we fast forward to now and I'm curious to hear
what you think about you know, women and the women
in rock. It's like, what is what is rock now?
As far as you know mainstream music is concerned, there's
(41:05):
the charts are now dominated by you know, popping and
hip hop, and there's some rock. But what do you
think of the current state of affairs with women in
the music industry? Do you think it has gotten easier harder?
Do you think there are new battles to fight? I
think the words easier and harder tricky words because because
(41:28):
I do UM, I don't want to dilute it down
to either one. There are challenges always to stand by
your art, and let's face it, there there are some
artists that have a tougher trek up the mountain than others.
(41:49):
Some doors open for whatever reason. It might be the
people that they're working with. I'm not saying that they're
not great, but there are some are is out there
that I know of who who have really um sometimes
had to do serious battle. And then there are others
(42:10):
that um have you noticed what hasn't changed let's say
what what has not changed is that if you get
a first record and a second record that's received, then
somebody's going to come carving for you, whether it's your
third or your fourth or fifth. You know, if you
(42:32):
get to make that many. But there usually is a
takedown somewhere along the line from some camp. And it
it might not be the critics, It could be the public.
It could be a mixture. It could be that the
work just doesn't resonate at the time. Um I went
(42:54):
through that with a record called Boys for Pelee, where
the critics really really dragged me through the coals on that.
But it was the public. It was the public. And
Neil Gaiman said to me, the great writer at the time,
he said, look, okay, you go from town to town,
you go town to town. Now this is before the
(43:14):
internet was really happening, and he said so and that's
changed now with social media, as we know, people can
go with TikTok, you can go to the masses and
things can happen really really fast. But at that time
I had to go. I circled the Midwest so many
times preaching the gospel of Pelee. This album, the third,
(43:39):
her third solo album. Yes, for people who aren't Tory. Sorry, sorry,
of course, of course no, no, that's why that's why
I'm here. Yeah, but that was that I saw it
as my punk harpsichord and record. So when you talk
about um, you know, what is the how do you
define a genre? Ra and can you can something? You know,
(44:05):
you can bring an audience to silence and a pen
drop with an acapella. And that's what's important when we're
talking about power. I'm not interested in how loud something is.
I'm interested in how it affects people, how it affects
(44:25):
the listener, Because just because somebody screaming their head off
doesn't mean they're saying anything that's interesting, doesn't mean that
at all. So it's really important that we talk about um,
you know, what is the intention of the work and
(44:45):
what is it trying to do? And so I think
when you asked me about female artists today, of course
they have challenges. We had challenges. Then what is true.
What is absolutely a fact though, is that you have
a big microphone that can get direct to the fans,
(45:05):
so that it's it's more difficult for somebody to gaslights
somebody or goes somebody. That's how this happened a lot
adjacent in the nineties where you don't have to sell
an artist to another label. If you've signed seven records
with an option on an eight album, that's sixteen years
(45:27):
of your life. And that's if you're really prolific and fast.
So in sixteen, you know, sixteen years or even twenty years,
that's a lot of records. That's a lot of time.
And what's some what a label can do is make
sure your value on the street plummets. So if there
is some kind of what do you call it persecution
(45:48):
going on, or if there's some kind of punishment situation,
because it's who do you think you are as an
artist standing up to a great CEO, And this happened
um mentioning no names, but people would be shelved, so
they wouldn't be sold and and um their their record
(46:09):
would just be shelved. And unless they had a really
good attorney, really good lawyer, which costs a lot of
money to move that, then that's just a tragic story
that would happen. But now with social media, an artist
has the ability to share with the public because the public,
(46:30):
I don't think knows what happens behind the curtain. They
certainly didn't know in the nineties, and everyone's coming out
now people are talking about assault. Performers are talking about assault,
people are talking about I'm gonna reference Tellershift again. She's like,
I'm going to put out the album I wanted to
put out. You tried to take my masters, and I'm
(46:51):
going to put out now that's one. That is one
huge And for someone that big to do that, you
have to respect someone you know for doing that, and
and and and I think, and the work it takes,
the work, it takes it work re record two to
try and because to revisit I mean, the idea of
(47:12):
revisiting you know, all my albums, my god, that takes
superhuman strength. So kudos started her. I think it's it's
such a she deserves respect what the capital are. Absolutely,
I don't think you should do that because you have
very long records, so I think you would take a
very long time to go back to sixteen records, some
(47:34):
of which are like twenty tracks. I have one, I
have another one. One final question because nearly thirty years
after Little Earthquakes came out, this was your piano rock album.
Everybody everybody won. My opinion, I think that you won.
They won the fans certainly. One I'm thinking the best
(47:55):
selling record of the year has been Adele, which is
female singer songwriter, primarily with the piano. She's ad some
like you said some what was it? What was the
thing you said earlier? Some some sweetener some sonic sweetener, right,
and taking some more risk with this record as you
started to do as you you know, three or four
(48:17):
records and you're like, I'm gonna play with electronica now
right by your girl? And what is do you think
you're hearing that news that the best selling record of
the year and the UK as well, it's encouraged, like
do you feel like the piano is getting the last laugh? Well,
I think what it's saying is that people are moved
(48:40):
by what she's putting out, by what she's saying, by
her intention, by her music. And because people are moved there,
they're showing that the piano is loved, and boy is
she loved? And boy or you loved? Well, thank you
And if you could, if you could say to someone
(49:02):
who had not has not listened to Little Earthquakes yat
which again criminal uh, well going into this record telling
this person what to expect and what you think it's
legacy is what would you say, Tori? Well, I I
guess the point of Little Earthquakes is encouraging people to
(49:26):
be their own person. And sometimes you don't know exactly
who you are, and that's okay, you know, the given
that everybody knows who they are, some people do. Some
people have tapped into that and accepted that. But some
of us had to try different pieces on pieces of ourselves,
(49:49):
and then you make this mosaic. You take the pieces
and then you find the whole. Sometimes some of us
are bits of stained glass, right that that then make
a different picture once you stand back from it. Not
everybody is a solid, you know, walking piece of art.
Some of us came in pieces and that's okay, And
(50:11):
that's what I think Little Earthquakes helped me to find.
(50:45):
Where Were You In ninety two was a production of
I Heart Radio. The executive producers are Noel Brown and
Jordan run Tug. The show was researched, written and hosted
by me Jason Lafier, with editing and sound design by
Michael Alder. June. If like what you heard, please subscribe
and leave us a review. For more podcasts from my
heart Radio, check out the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast,
(51:08):
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. H
Where Were You in ninety two is a production of
I Heart Radio. A special note this episode features themes
of sexual assault and may not be suitable for all listeners.
Welcome to Where Are You In nine two, a podcast
in which I Your host Jason Lamfier, look back at
the major hits, one hit wonders, shocking news stories, and
(00:23):
irresistible scandals that shaped what might be the wildest, most eclectic,
most controversial twelve months of music ever. This week, we
take a brief pit stop in our crazy ride You
for something extra special, an intimate chat with singer songwriter
Torey Amos, who paired pianos and guitars and shook the
(00:45):
music world to its core with her debut solo album,
Little Earthquakes. In an expanded interview from episode five, we
discussed the origins of the record, the uphill battle Amos
face to get it made, the powerful response she received
to stand out track It's Like Silence All These Years,
and Me and a Gun, and her work as the
first spokesperson for the rape Abuse in sust National Network
(01:07):
or RAIN. Be sure to tune in next week for
our final episode, which explores how in musicians like George
Michael Madonna, Elton, John Queen, YouTube and TLC confronted the
AIDS crisis head on. So the first question I'm asking
(01:32):
guests on this show is a very simple one, but
also a very very weighted, very layered one, I think,
which is where were you mentally physically? I was releasing
a record called Little Earthquakes, and so I reckon I
was probably in UM the UK, going back and forth
(01:58):
to the States and the u K. Early and nine
two and the record came out and I started to
go on a world tour. But it was a rocky road.
Of course, it was not. It wasn't the easiest. The
conception was not easy, the release wasn't easy. UM, and
you definitely had to to fight for this record. Yeah,
(02:21):
I had to fight. I had to fight for the record.
And the other thing is it was a process. So
it really took about four years, if I'm if I'm
being fair and accurate about the whole thing. And it
happened in stages. So UM, the first demos that that
I was doing, I was doing with a producer called
(02:44):
Eric Ross, and then David Sergerson got involved and produced
UM a bunch of songs which included songs on the
record like Crucify and Silent all these years in winter
and um. When we turned in the record then it
(03:04):
was it was not accepted. So the suggestion was from
a producer to the head of Atlantic at the time,
it was Doug Morris. The suggestion was take all the
pianos off and put guitars on, and Doug and I
were able to come to a different outcome, which was
(03:25):
I would turn in a few more produced tracks, and
so I turned to Eric Ross and musicians that I
knew in l A Friends to come and collaborate. And
then that was the next stage. I love in In
In Resistance, which is your latest book, which is from
twenty UM, which I think came out right really after
(03:47):
the pandemic struck. Yes it did you address the conversation
you had to have with the Muses about using your
arsenal what you had in your arsenal at that time.
I think you were and using the arsenal that you
had to go up against these these label exacts and
(04:12):
and and fight to keep your voice and keep the
piano as and you know, integral, integral part of this record.
So tell me about that conversation that you had you
know with the muses and and how you got your
way in the end. Well, at the time, people, if
(04:32):
you weren't around then and aware of what was happening
in the music world, you might not know this. And uh,
the piano was not cool. So Elton and Billy it was.
They were still touring the world and they were, you know,
these legends where it was um embraced and accepted because
(04:54):
of their track record. They've been around a long long time.
But really, uh, what was happening in the music scene
was women like Tracy Chapman and Susanne Vega. The guitar
um was being embraced, which is great, but the piano
was seen as some kind of well, let's put it
(05:17):
this way, not part of the Seattle sound not. It
wasn't considered, oh, this could stand next to grunge and
be badass. It was not seen as that. So I
think it's really important that people realize the context and
the narrative. So it was my mission two because I
(05:40):
had ditched the piano on a record I made in
eight Night that bombed, called White Antry Read. So I followed,
uh what people were saying at the time, which has
embraced the synthesizer and and embraced this other type of sound.
And you know the piano's history that to leave it
back in the seventies. So in my dark night of
(06:04):
the soul after that album bombed, I crawled back to
the piano and realized that I had to find out
who I was as an artist, as a human being
through the piano. That's where these songs came. I didn't
know my identity Jason anymore, because I had turned myself
into so many different people that I was, and I'd
(06:26):
worn so many masks to try and get out of
the bar room that, um, I didn't know who I
was anymore. So the piano had to take me back
to when I was five years old studying at the
Peabody Conservatory and and take me back to a magical
time when when music was magic. And I had completely
(06:47):
burned that to the ground and you wanted desperately to
revisit it and bring it back. And then you were
met with resistance. Yes, I'm tapping the book, um, And
you know I think that when you when you titled
the book resistance, you I think you meant from both perspectives,
like we're met with resistance but you you have to
(07:08):
resist and maintain your autonomy and maintain your vision. And
this record I think encapsulates that so perfectly. You write
a really detailed account of how Girl, the song Girl
was not one of the original cuts, you submitted one
of the ten to twelve original cuts. You and you
(07:29):
went home, You're with your parents, and it came to you.
It came to you. You know, girls started to speak
to you, the users started to speak to you, and
you talk about how Girl ended up being salvation, a
bridge really that that helped get you to the you know,
from the original little Earthquakes, your original vision, to a
(07:50):
vision that was a little bit more what that, you know,
the label one so funny about that. So Girl was
documenting what I was going through in my battle at
that time. I was having the battle. Um. But of
course I have to honor Doug Morris. He he said,
(08:11):
go on, here's here's some money, UM. And he he
was honest, he said, you and the producer you worked
with UM for the first set of cuts blew the budget.
Of course I didn't see any of that money. But
moving on, so we didn't have a lot, but hey,
how we were going to make these four tracks, and
(08:32):
I didn't know what the four tracks were going to be,
but I knew they needed to have something different than
the twelve I had turned in. So not knowing sometimes
as a as a songwriter, you you have no idea
where you're going or how you're going to get there.
So the best thing is to listen. The strongest thing
a songwriter can do is to sit and listen. You're
(08:57):
listening to the muses, you're observing, You're trying to be
in the moment, and and you're hoping that you're going
to be I don't know, lead to this magical sonic place.
And sometimes they only give you a two bar phrase
those music. Sometimes you don't you know, you don't get
the whole song. But girl was reflecting what I was
(09:19):
living at the time, which was she's been everybody else's girl.
Maybe one day she'll be her own. And it's like, yes, yes,
t a it, Come on, You've you've got to stop
being um such a sponge and just saying Okay, I'll
(09:39):
twist myself and turn myself into whatever you want. Just
because you want to leave the bar room. What if
you never leave the bar room? You need to go
there because if you can accept that, then you will
write what you need to write for your soul, not
for somebody else having an opinion. It's just an opinion,
(10:03):
and usually they're wrong. Usually they're wrong. So then the
four songs came and by that time I turned them in.
But Doug had found Silent all these years. He had
listened to it going home in his car one night
and he got it. The penny dropped and he said, Okay,
(10:23):
I realized this, this was one of the original twelve.
But I get it. I get it now, and I
think you need to go to England. And I went,
pardon what what? He said? Yes, I have a counterpart
over there called Max Hole East West Records in London,
and he will get it. He will understand and his
(10:46):
team will understand what to do with this, and that
was the next phase of the journey. It's fascinating too.
When I read that, it made total sense to me
because I thought, this is a country where Wuthering Heights
by Cape is one of your heroes, one of my heroes.
Guest was the number one song, which that would just
never happened in America. So you know, not to say
that Silent all these years was derivative of Kate Bush
(11:09):
by any means, but it was. It's a piano based track.
It is very much a classically sounding piano led ballad, yes,
piano and orchestra, and that not one note changed on
that from when we turned it in. UM. I think
it might have just had a different mix. But I
(11:29):
don't mean a dancer, I don't mean a remix. I'm
talking about just some sonic sweet names maybe you know,
boost the mids or something. But but honestly, that song
was what it was from day dot and it just
I found it really intriguing that people were gravitating towards
(11:53):
that song. And at that time, if you remember, you
must have been a young when this happened, very very young.
Was Anita Hill had just been um on television. I
saw her on television. I was in England at the time.
This was autumn of ninety one, and she said something
(12:18):
to the effect of I couldn't stay silent any longer,
something to that effect, and within two weeks, three weeks,
Silent all these years was getting played on the radio
in England. Now, sometimes when you're writing a song, you
have no idea, the um, the moment that it's going
to cross another moment. Well, she was. This was volcanic
(12:44):
what was happening with Anita Hill. And I encourage people
to read the story if you haven't read her story,
but um, she was talking about sexual assault allegedly with
a chief justice who is still a chief Justice, and um,
this was shocking the world and the courage that it
(13:05):
took for her to speak. And it just so happened
that this song silent all these years, was coming out
within a couple of weeks of this shock. So it
was really relevant at the time. And when I was
writing it, you have no idea what circumstances are going
to cross the song's path, which then becomes part of
(13:25):
the narrative. It really it took on a new relevance
as you're saying a new meeting, and it's sort of
almost became bigger than you. And it has continued to
resonate through the ages you can apply that song to.
You know, just a few years after Anitaho, we had
(13:46):
Monica Lewinsky and then she was silenced. But then she
came forward, what two decades later, and she's like, excuse me,
my voice was lost, and all of this in this
Clinton scandal. Let me tell my side of the story.
Now that's right. I started to realize people would stand
(14:29):
after the concert by the stage door to tell me
their story, and that began this this kind of exchange
that's been happening now for thirty years, which is people.
It's pretty humbling when you think they're they're telling you
some of their they're very intimate experiences or fears or
(14:53):
um some people even saying I don't feel worthy of
a story because my story he isn't one of assault.
And so then and you have to have compassion and
understand that everyone has a story and it's unique to you,
and it's and it's important. Everyone's story is important, but
(15:17):
it needs to be valued. And it really um opened
me up to understanding that everybody has a story to
tell and each one needs to be valued. Was that
a breakthrough moment for you and fans responded to that
song that way and came to speak to you backstage,
(15:37):
or was there another moment where you realized, oh, wow,
my music is really touching people. The music from Little
Earthquakes is really touching people in a way that my
music has not touched people before I was learning about it.
Then and it was humbling. Um, because I'm a conduit
(15:58):
for the muses. I do not write these on my own,
I promise you, hand on my heart, um, because I
know when I write things on my own, I can
do that. I have the toolbox to do that. But
it doesn't it's not the it's not the same, it's
not the same without that collaboration. And I think that there. Ah,
(16:22):
they they're tough teachers sometimes and they demand whomever they're
working with, and they they're working with all kinds of
people in all kinds of genres, as we both know. Um.
But I think it was when a young girl heard
(16:42):
a song called Me and a Gun, which is a
song a little Earthquakes about a sexual assault, and she
fainted during the song. Um. And after the show they
had taken her backstage and she told me her story,
and she said, can I please come on the road.
(17:03):
I'll do anything. I'll do any I work in the
kitchens or whatever I can do. Um, because my stepfather
raped me last night. He will tomorrow night and when
I get in tonight he will. And so I was,
of course, you're coming on the road with me and
we'll figure it out now, Naively Jason. Of course I
(17:24):
don't understand legal. Of course I didn't. I'm not a psychiatrist.
I didn't understand what was happening, but I saw the
terror in the eyes and in my UM. Well, it's
just trying to do something. You're trying to do something.
So I get a call from legal coming into the
(17:46):
venue saying you will be arrested for kidnapping. You are
crossing state line tonight on the buses and you will
be arrested. And at the time, there just wasn't UM
a place where I knew where to call. Now I
know when she walked out that I watched her go.
(18:08):
I've never seen her again. I've never heard from her again,
and it plagues me to this day because we have
no idea UM. But what she inspired was me then
galvanized to work with RAIN and I was I was
(18:30):
asked to be there for spokesperson and UM to work
with that organization. It's still around and it's a national hotline. UM.
Can you tell listeners what what RAIN is UM in
case they're not familiar with it. RAIN is UM Rape
Abuse and Incests National Network one D six five six
(18:53):
hope and UH. There are trained people there to take
the calls. They have a military section, UM and then
they have a civilian section. Uh. And during the pandemic,
what we learned is that we've had so many calls
from younger people because of the house arrest and kids
(19:19):
not being able to reach out to people who can
then help them, so that they've they've been isolated. And
that's one of the tragedies of this pandemic. In the lockdowns,
it's I mean, you've already touched on two very raw
and painful tracks from that from the record Little earth Quakes,
(19:43):
um Me and a Gun is a pivotal track, a
touchdown in your career, and I mean you've spoken already
about the significance of it, and now it resonated with people.
Take me to that moment when you knew you had
to write that song, where you had to include it
(20:04):
on the record, when the music spoke tuneside Tori, this
is maybe arrest, This is maybe going to be the
most challenging moment of your career, but we got to
do this. Yes. Uh. There are moments when you're guided
(20:25):
and I was guided to do this acapella UM. And
there's a level of trust that you have with the
muses in the moment, because my goodness, when you're creating
and talking about some of the harrowing things UM, which
(20:50):
some of the songs over the years cover cover difficult.
You know, the skin is off, we're on zipping, getting
to those deep emotions that people have been harboring their
whole lives, and you're and you're going into the wound
and how you go into that wound and then how
you hopefully the song walks with someone through their dark night.
(21:16):
You know that that is what the muses um do
and and so being part of that, there's a huge
responsibility because you're thinking, if I get this wrong, if
I get this wrong, if I tell this story wrong,
then what I don't want to do harm. I don't
want to take somebody to a place and get them shattered.
(21:40):
You want to take them to a place of recognition
of Okay, this might have happened to him, to her,
to them, and then they foind they find something empowering
by it. Now, maybe there's a long journey that is
to happen from victim to survivor maybe there's a lot
(22:03):
of work that will have to be done, but the
first step is always acknowledging and and not running away
you know from from those um tragic moments that that
that sometimes people want to block out. So working with
(22:23):
Rain all these years has really taught me. Taught me
a lot. And the people that are on that front
line every day, UM wow, what a commitment that they have.
But it all started by a song that then people, um,
people embraced and then told their story. To me. I've
(22:47):
always been, you know, interested in why you decided to
do it acapella and if you were met with not
to go back to this word again, but resistance from
from the label, because not only did this song not
have guitars, it didn't even have pianos. It had nothing.
It was the most it was the ross thing imaginable
and the only thing I could compare it to at
(23:09):
that time. I remember, I remember Behind the Wall from
Tracy Chapman from her first record. You remember that song
I Do, which was also about I mean abuse, and
it was acapella, And I remember my father being obsessed
with that record and playing it on repeat. And I
remember that song when I always I was very very
(23:30):
very young, but I remember it would always stop me
in my tracks because it was unlike anything I had
ever heard from a pop or rock or folk musician,
and especially a female musician. It was so powerful, and so,
you know, fast forward four years later, I believe, I
believe Tracy Chapman's debut was eight eight You Bring Me
(23:55):
In a Gun and and but no, nobody was really
doing that. Nobody was really making acapella songs, especially women
who they were already brought to the side still, you
know in rock and pop music. Well, there was a
faction at the label that didn't want this song on
and and said, this is you know, this is really disturbing.
(24:17):
I'm disturbed by this. And I said, if you were
not disturbed by this, then that would be scary. You
need to be disturbed. Sometimes music wants to be disturbing.
That's what it is. So let's not resist that, let's
embrace that. But I had to really again, I had
(24:38):
to put up a resistance of capitulating. I had to
be strong. I had to stand by um the songs,
and and also I had to listen to some of
the improvements that the team wanted me to make, because
you know, we're back to babies in bathwater, just throwing
(25:00):
everything out just to dig your heels and that's not
very clever. So sometimes taking on board somebody's comment, some
someone's critique of something so that we can improve it.
And that was a huge learning curve as a creator.
When do you have a think take a think tank
where you can agree with some things and then use thinking. Well,
(25:23):
not so fast. I think we're having a knee jerk
reaction and we need to be bold and brave and
stand by the acapella track and it stays on. And
you made you made concessions. Yes, after you went back
and you said, okay, I'm not going to give you
one song my guitars, I'm leaving four, including Girl, including
(25:44):
Press Precious Things, which um, I believe you you share
a story in Resistance. UM, I think you were you
travel you headed west. You were in America at that point,
but you headed west. I think you were in the
Rockies walking and I think you said just a couple
of words came to you as you're on this hike,
or so tell me about precious Things. Well, we took
(26:06):
Eric Ross and I took a trip out west and
he was producing these four tracks with me. Um, and
I had a lot of respect for his musicality. So
we were on this trip and by now we were
in Colorado, and um, if I remember correctly, I fell
(26:28):
unto the weather. And sometimes when these things happen, it's strange,
it's almost as if as if, um, you know, you're
not in protective mode, you get worn down a bit,
whether it's m hm, the veil drops and I was
in the woods somewhere and walking somewhere, and then, like
(26:52):
we've talked about before, those muses, sometimes they just sprinkle
a few bars and the penny drops again, and you think, okay, okay,
this is something. This is not just you know, me
sing it in the shower today, which you know we
all do, and we all make up these silly songs,
(27:12):
which I make up silly song all the time. But
Precious Things. I knew she was coming to be on
the record. I knew that she was and bursting through
and um yeah, creating that was a challenge, but we
we got there. For anyone who thinks who's not as
(27:35):
familiar with your music, which that's criminal, but Victorium is
cannot rock you've never heard Precious Things, because hearing that
is revelatory. The drums alone are massive, and then the
bridge is just explosive. And also you use these voices
(27:57):
throughout the record, and you use them and precious things
you summon and girl and they almost it's a male voice,
and it almost sounds demonic. It sounds dark. And I've
always you know, I've always wondered. It really stood out
to me when I discovered this record and fell in
love with it, because I had never really heard anything
(28:17):
like it. And you know, Kate Bush experiment again to
bring up Kate Bush. She experimented again with those voices
on the Dreaming and on Hounds of Hounds of Love,
and they're a little bit of that in this and
this record. Can you tell me a little bit about that?
I think what was happening at the time was that
(28:40):
there was a freedom to create, because the worst thing
that I could ever imagine in music was to put
out a record and be left at be ridiculed. And
and the thing in l a that you really don't
want to catch is failure. You will not be going
(29:02):
to any parties if you have failed. And I remember
walking into a little restaurant that I always walked into,
and these people were in the music business, and as
I passed by, they laughed. They laughed at me. Um,
and I was called something like a bimbo and billboard,
(29:25):
you know it was. It was a fleeting moment because
nobody cared. Failure gets brushed under the rug and you
get swept out, you know, with the garbage, your garbage,
but not Shirley Manson, the beautiful garbage love so so
(29:45):
things like precious things of voices. I was going through, um,
you know, I was crossing the river sticks, I was
going to meet Persephone. I was in hades because I
had failed. But through the failure and being on your
(30:06):
knees and being in the muck, which has happened at
different times in my life. Not all records come from there,
but a few have um this one Scarlet's Walk and
Ocean to ocean. They've come from a place of deep
despondency and and deep heartache because you know, I'd lost myself.
(30:31):
But the truth is I had lost myself a long
time before that, Jason. I started losing myself when I
started chasing it, and when I started chasing it in
my early twenties and just saying well, I've got to
get out of the barroom, so I'll do anything to
get out, I'll I'll write any song I need to write,
(30:53):
and so, you know, talk about the fame whore, the
fame whore arch hype Um just took over my brain
and my my pen and my piano, and I allowed
her to do that. I allowed her to do that.
And so these songs and these voices that you talk about,
(31:16):
there's a there's a conjuring, and there's a there's a
narrative that I was trying to tell sonically, I was
trying to explain the level of emotions that were happening
at the time. It to me, has always felt like
this internal tug of war with you and your past,
(31:40):
with you and what people want you to be versus
what you want to be. Their voice versus your voice.
They're dragging you down. You're looking for uplift, I'm dragging
me down. So they're actually you, you you would say those
voices are or maybe maybe maybe yes, my saboteur absolutely
(32:04):
spot on. I have to take responsibility for listening to opinions,
to chasing it. And I'm sure any artist that's listening
right now that has has thought, Okay, you know, this
is a hard slog when you get rejection after rejection
(32:26):
after rejection after rejection. We're talking years and years and
years and years and years and years. Then you go, Okay,
maybe I'm on the maybe this um singer songwriter talking
about my emotions. Maybe I'm on the wrong path. Maybe
I need to right in another way. So then you
(32:46):
start listening to what people and the labels are signing
and what they want to be, and all of a
sudden you think, Okay, well maybe I can do that.
But just because you can do it, because you have
the musicality, doesn't mean anybody's going to believe you, because
(33:08):
it's disingenuous, because it's a lie. Now, I think some
people can create a character and step into that character
and it works and they have the facility to make
that happen. But that was not working for me. And
you toyed with characters later, but you were very explicit
about what you were doing. There was a whole narrative
(33:30):
for each character, and there was a purpose. It was pop,
you know, persona that was you were putting out into
the world. It was no, this is a character that's
been through this and I've had you know, a Neil
Gaiman has written a story about it. For me, and
here we Go, Here we Go. Yeah, you really wanted to,
(34:02):
Like you said, you wanted to rekindle your relationship with
the piano and you wanted this to be your your record.
You came back with Girl, Precious Things. What were the
other two tracks? Oh my goodness, you're testing me now,
I'm trying to was a little earth Quakes one because
earth quacks and tear in your Hands, Hear in your Head,
which also has guitars. Yes, um, oh, wonderful tracks. I
(34:25):
can't imagine that record not having those tracks. Looking back,
do you think, my god, I'm so happy they made
it onto the record. I don't know what it would
be without or do you absolutely? Jason? Because without them
and and Me and a Gun wasn't on the original
record that came later. Okay, so that was something else
you submitted after the guitars tracks to the guitars. You
(34:47):
gave them that so you could probably you know, were
you thinking, I'm gonna give them this so then I
get a win later m hm. When I was in England,
I wrote me in a Gun after I turned in
these four and we recorded a song called China. So um,
what had been the original twelve songs. Those songs became
(35:08):
B sides, the ones that were moved aside for the
four and then China and Manican. So yes, it's a
completely different record. So if Doug had gotten it from
the beginning, it wouldn't be what it is. So so
that's where sometimes you have to kind of go through
(35:30):
the process in the battle and out of the battle. Um,
I hung onto the pianos, but we got seven tracks
that because of his perception, um, that we wouldn't have had.
So you know, that's where the magic of a relationship
can create something good. So you talk about getting there
(35:51):
with you know, like we were talking about, um, you know,
writing press things, writing girl. What isn't addressed in Resistance
is the moment where you presented these and how you
got that green light. So tell me about that. Oh
my goodness, Um, yeah it was. It was really wonderful
(36:15):
understanding that that Doug understood, but not just he He
didn't just understand the four songs. He understood Silent all
these years and when he got it, he got it.
But he thought the four songs I turned in, we're
making the album better and he was absolutely right. So uh,
(36:40):
of course, then I went to England and then other
things started to happen, which were the other two songs.
And I did a cover of smells like teen Spirit um,
which for to take it to the piano was was
a bit shocking for some people. But the song is
so great that it could hold it. It could hold
(37:04):
a completely different read, um, and that says a lot
for the songwriting for sure. And then we were also
working on the visuals, which um were driven by the
English side. Mm hmm, tell me about the visuals. Let's
walk down that road because it was such a strong aesthetic,
(37:26):
and you did so many videos for the I mean,
I'm going to date myself a little bit, but I
had a VHS com of all the and I was
just amazed at how many videos you did for this record,
given that it wasn't you know. I mean Janet Jackson
did a bunch of videos for Rhythm Nation, but she
was Janet Jackson. She was a massive pop star, and
(37:46):
you were like, this was your first solo record, and
I can't wait just say we love those Janet. I
mean I would have. I would have had a video
for every one of them. Um that you know, that's
a pop masterpiece, right, Um. But know for you that
was so ambitious, and I'm just thinking, like in every
video really for little earthquakes, there there's a threat, there's
(38:07):
a there's a there's a common esthetic and it's it's
it's it's impressionistic. I get watercolors from it, and I
get it it's willowy and it's and I see it's
I really see its influence now too. I don't know
if you've seen some of the videos for for Taylor
Swift's Folklore and evermore, but I get some such I
(38:30):
get old school Tory vibes from from the Willow video,
and I get it um um from the Cardigan video,
and I just love to see that. The long thread,
what I will tell you is about the team, because
we have to talk about the team and their genius.
Um So, Ali's Taylor head of marketing. It always when
(38:51):
you're developing these things, you you bring there. There's a
team behind the curtain that people don't talk about, but
they're very essential for work to be what it is
and to be original. I think that's what we're talking about.
Um So, at least Taylor brought in a photographer and
(39:12):
filmmaker named Cindy Palmano and Cindy Paulmano brought in a
stylist by the name of Karen Binns, who I still
work with. And for instance, she's working with whiz Kid
right now. And Karen Binns is probably well, she's one
of the amazing thinkers. You really should talk to her
(39:32):
one time about aesthetic because she will tell you she
sees everything. This is Karen who you were walking down
the street one day talking and this is how how
we're corny girl. And Karen and I have been working
together since so um Cindy had introduced us. So therefore
you you have a mixture of of minds working together,
(39:57):
um making Silent these years video, uh, making the Winter video,
making the Crucify video, the China video, and and these
three brilliant women. Um, you know, they have to be
acknowledged and they need to be acknowledged because they were
(40:19):
doing this. So whatever has come happened in fifteen or
eighteen or nineteen or whatever by wonderful artists, great artists,
it's still really important for me to to acknowledge that
these brilliant women were thinking like this in two and
(40:42):
they should be acknowledged for that. It's I'm so happy
to hear you you bring that up, because you know,
we fast forward to now and I'm curious to hear
what you think about you know, women and the women
in rock. It's like, what is what is rock now?
As far as you know mainstream music is concerned, there's
(41:05):
the charts are now dominated by you know, popping and
hip hop, and there's some rock. But what do you
think of the current state of affairs with women in
the music industry? Do you think it has gotten easier harder?
Do you think there are new battles to fight? I
think the words easier and harder tricky words because because
(41:28):
I do UM, I don't want to dilute it down
to either one. There are challenges always to stand by
your art, and let's face it, there there are some
artists that have a tougher trek up the mountain than others.
(41:49):
Some doors open for whatever reason. It might be the
people that they're working with. I'm not saying that they're
not great, but there are some are is out there
that I know of who who have really um sometimes
had to do serious battle. And then there are others
(42:10):
that um have you noticed what hasn't changed let's say
what what has not changed is that if you get
a first record and a second record that's received, then
somebody's going to come carving for you, whether it's your
third or your fourth or fifth. You know, if you
(42:32):
get to make that many. But there usually is a
takedown somewhere along the line from some camp. And it
it might not be the critics, It could be the public.
It could be a mixture. It could be that the
work just doesn't resonate at the time. Um I went
(42:54):
through that with a record called Boys for Pelee, where
the critics really really dragged me through the coals on that.
But it was the public. It was the public. And
Neil Gaiman said to me, the great writer at the time,
he said, look, okay, you go from town to town,
you go town to town. Now this is before the
(43:14):
internet was really happening, and he said so and that's
changed now with social media, as we know, people can
go with TikTok, you can go to the masses and
things can happen really really fast. But at that time
I had to go. I circled the Midwest so many
times preaching the gospel of Pelee. This album, the third,
(43:39):
her third solo album. Yes, for people who aren't Tory. Sorry, sorry,
of course, of course no, no, that's why that's why
I'm here. Yeah, but that was that I saw it
as my punk harpsichord and record. So when you talk
about um, you know, what is the how do you
define a genre? Ra and can you can something? You know,
(44:05):
you can bring an audience to silence and a pen
drop with an acapella. And that's what's important when we're
talking about power. I'm not interested in how loud something is.
I'm interested in how it affects people, how it affects
(44:25):
the listener, Because just because somebody screaming their head off
doesn't mean they're saying anything that's interesting, doesn't mean that
at all. So it's really important that we talk about um,
you know, what is the intention of the work and
(44:45):
what is it trying to do? And so I think
when you asked me about female artists today, of course
they have challenges. We had challenges. Then what is true.
What is absolutely a fact though, is that you have
a big microphone that can get direct to the fans,
(45:05):
so that it's it's more difficult for somebody to gaslights
somebody or goes somebody. That's how this happened a lot
adjacent in the nineties where you don't have to sell
an artist to another label. If you've signed seven records
with an option on an eight album, that's sixteen years
(45:27):
of your life. And that's if you're really prolific and fast.
So in sixteen, you know, sixteen years or even twenty years,
that's a lot of records. That's a lot of time.
And what's some what a label can do is make
sure your value on the street plummets. So if there
is some kind of what do you call it persecution
(45:48):
going on, or if there's some kind of punishment situation,
because it's who do you think you are as an
artist standing up to a great CEO, And this happened
um mentioning no names, but people would be shelved, so
they wouldn't be sold and and um their their record
(46:09):
would just be shelved. And unless they had a really
good attorney, really good lawyer, which costs a lot of
money to move that, then that's just a tragic story
that would happen. But now with social media, an artist
has the ability to share with the public because the public,
(46:30):
I don't think knows what happens behind the curtain. They
certainly didn't know in the nineties, and everyone's coming out
now people are talking about assault. Performers are talking about assault,
people are talking about I'm gonna reference Tellershift again. She's like,
I'm going to put out the album I wanted to
put out. You tried to take my masters, and I'm
(46:51):
going to put out now that's one. That is one
huge And for someone that big to do that, you
have to respect someone you know for doing that, and
and and and I think, and the work it takes,
the work, it takes it work re record two to
try and because to revisit I mean, the idea of
(47:12):
revisiting you know, all my albums, my god, that takes
superhuman strength. So kudos started her. I think it's it's
such a she deserves respect what the capital are. Absolutely,
I don't think you should do that because you have
very long records, so I think you would take a
very long time to go back to sixteen records, some
(47:34):
of which are like twenty tracks. I have one, I
have another one. One final question because nearly thirty years
after Little Earthquakes came out, this was your piano rock album.
Everybody everybody won. My opinion, I think that you won.
They won the fans certainly. One I'm thinking the best
(47:55):
selling record of the year has been Adele, which is
female singer songwriter, primarily with the piano. She's ad some
like you said some what was it? What was the
thing you said earlier? Some some sweetener some sonic sweetener, right,
and taking some more risk with this record as you
started to do as you you know, three or four
(48:17):
records and you're like, I'm gonna play with electronica now
right by your girl? And what is do you think
you're hearing that news that the best selling record of
the year and the UK as well, it's encouraged, like
do you feel like the piano is getting the last laugh? Well,
I think what it's saying is that people are moved
(48:40):
by what she's putting out, by what she's saying, by
her intention, by her music. And because people are moved there,
they're showing that the piano is loved, and boy is
she loved? And boy or you loved? Well, thank you
And if you could, if you could say to someone
(49:02):
who had not has not listened to Little Earthquakes yat
which again criminal uh, well going into this record telling
this person what to expect and what you think it's
legacy is what would you say, Tori? Well, I I
guess the point of Little Earthquakes is encouraging people to
(49:26):
be their own person. And sometimes you don't know exactly
who you are, and that's okay, you know, the given
that everybody knows who they are, some people do. Some
people have tapped into that and accepted that. But some
of us had to try different pieces on pieces of ourselves,
(49:49):
and then you make this mosaic. You take the pieces
and then you find the whole. Sometimes some of us
are bits of stained glass, right that that then make
a different picture once you stand back from it. Not
everybody is a solid, you know, walking piece of art.
Some of us came in pieces and that's okay, And
(50:11):
that's what I think Little Earthquakes helped me to find.
(50:45):
Where Were You In ninety two was a production of
I Heart Radio. The executive producers are Noel Brown and
Jordan run Tug. The show was researched, written and hosted
by me Jason Lafier, with editing and sound design by
Michael Alder. June. If like what you heard, please subscribe
and leave us a review. For more podcasts from my
heart Radio, check out the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast,
(51:08):
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. H
Host
Jason Lamphier
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