Damn, I Wish I Was Your Constant Craving: The Year of the Lesbian Anthem

Sophie B. Hawkins dominated the airwaves with her 1992 debut single, “Damn I Wish I Was Your Lover,” a song with homoerotic overtones that were rare in mainstream pop at the time. If they went unnoticed by many listeners, she fought nearly every step of the way to express her progressive views and maintain her independence at her label, and struggled to find her place in the LGBTQ community.

Meanwhile, k.d. lang’s 1992 hit “Constant Craving” and her album Ingenue ushered her out of Nashville and into the Top 40 spotlight. After she came out, picketers protested her Grammy nominations, but her star quickly rose, with Vanity Fair tapping her for one of its most memorable, provocative covers and cementing her status as a sex symbol and a queer icon.

In this episode, we explore how the two artists navigated the music industry and their sexual orientations as they were thrust into the public eye. With special guest Sophie B. Hawkins.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Where Were You in ninety two is a production of
I Heart Radio Kitty Lang's Voice. I mean like you
never had a voice like that before. You needed her voice,
and you needed her partnership with that songwriter. When you
get all these things together, it's unstoppable. No one can
say now, because when humanity sees the truth, they say yes, Okay, Yes.

(00:27):
Welcome to Where Were You in ninety two? A podcast
in which your host Jason Lafier, look back at the
major hits, one hit wonders, shocking news stories, and irresistible
scandals that shape what might be the wildest, most eclectic,
most controversial twelve months of music ever. The year of
big Butt, Anthems, Achy, Breaky Hearts and Madonna's Sucks Book.

(00:48):
The year that Boys, Two Men and Whitney Houston shattered
Billboard chart records, Well George Might Go YouTube, and TLC
confronted the AIDS crisis. Head on the year that introduced
us to grunge, g funk, and right Said Fret. Featuring
interviews with critics, obsessives, industry big wigs, directors, producers, and

(01:09):
the artists themselves, this series poses the question what was
it about that made it so groundbreaking, so riotous, so fun,
and so that shit crazy. This week a tale of
two queer anthems, both of which tackled profound yearning and

(01:31):
unrequited lust. One became ubiquitous while essentially hiding its homoerotic
themes and plain site. The other served as a launchpad
for a celebrated but disenchanted country singer to cross over
to pop and finally come out, blazing a trail for
countless future artists. Sophie be Hawkins dominated air waves with

(01:51):
her debut single, Damn I Wish I Was Your Lover,
and while it bore strong lesbian overtones that were rare
for mainstream pop at the time, they went notice to
many listeners. Meanwhile, Katie Lang's hit Constant Craving ushered her
out of Nashville and into the top forty spotlight. After
she came out that same year, some radio stations banned

(02:12):
her music, and picketers protested her Grammy nominations. Nevertheless, her
star quickly rose, with Vanity Fair tapping her for one
of its most memorable covers and David Bowie declaring that
she was quote fast emerging as the classiest, most stylish
performer of the nineties. In this episode, we explore how

(02:32):
both Hawkings and lang navigated the music industry and their
sexual orientations as they were thrust into the public eye.
It is one of the best magazine covers of all time.
It's certainly my favorite. I don't remember magazines once upon
a time, before TikTok and insta and Twitter. They were

(02:55):
the indicator of cool, a way to announce that someone
had truly arrived. By August of Katy Langon arrived there
the singer was and the cover of Vanity Fair were
climbing in a barber chair wearing a pinstriped suit and
a big fat tie, her hair short and her face
slathered in shaving cream as Cindy Crawford in a slinky
black one piece, took a straight razor to her neck.

(03:18):
The supermodel's eyes closed and her plump red lips parted
as she tilted her head toward the heavens as if
in the throes of ecstasy. Shot by her Brits, the
image was a subversive twist on a classic Norman Rockwell
Saturday Evening post scene, but more important, it was a
dismantling of gender roles, of the idea of gender itself.

(03:38):
It was whimsical and sensual, funny and horny, inventive and provocative,
the epitome of cool. It's difficult to articulate just how
edgy that cover was at the time, literally edgy, given
how Lang was on the razor's edge and the photo,
but also because she had reached a precarious point in
her career, having decided to come out publicly the year before,

(04:00):
just months after releasing her latest album on Genu. That
choice was a bold move. It was Lang walking up
to the edge of a cliff, teetering on the precipice,
not knowing if or when she might fall in. Lange
wasn't just the only openly lesbian pop singer. She was
one of the only openly queer singers period. But despite

(04:23):
the rampant sexism and homophobia of that era, despite the
Canadian artists refusal to adhere to gender norm's, people loved her.
Judging by the impressive record sales and accolades import and
after she came out, Lang's disclosure hardly seemed to tarnish
her career. Anchored by meticulous production and Lang's angelic vocals,
Angeneu went double platinum in the US and Canada and

(04:44):
Platinum in the UK. Its lead single, Constant Craving, was
her first to crack the top forty later, winning a
Grammy for Best Female Pop Vocal Performance with its videos
Snagging and MTV Video Music Award for Best Female Video.
In Lange became start with that Vanity Fair cover. She
became a sex symbol, whether she wanted it or not.

(05:06):
She was now associated with the lesbian cheek movement, a
loaded in controversial term even then. But she also became
an icon and a role model, proof that you could
defy the establishment and still have it embrace you. It
wasn't always this way. As a country singer, Lang was
an outsider. Though she'd won two Grammys and the adoration

(05:29):
of many of her musical peers and devoted fans, she
hadn't achieved the success she was seeking, or thought she
was seeking. After years spent hustling in the country scene,
she decided it was time to move on. Well. Her
newfound fame came with its own set of burdens and
pop music, Lang found a home. Lang was born in Edmonton, Alberta,

(05:50):
but her family moved to Consort when she was a baby.
She grew up in the Canadian prairies with her mother,
two older sisters, and an older brother. Her father left
the family when she was twelve, but she didn't get
serious about music until college, when she became infatuated with
Patsy Klein, so infatuated that she believed herself to be
the reincarnation of the country legend, and after graduating formed

(06:11):
a kind tribute band, the Reclines. Klein was a brash,
blunt performer who sported cowgirl outfits and boots. Lange admired
not only her singing but her whole look when she
established the Reclines. Rather than opt for a towering updu
and a pretty lady like dress, Lange took a page
from Klein's book, then cranked it up to eleven, rocking, short,

(06:36):
spiky hair, rustur glasses without lenses, plastic skirts with toys
dangling from them, and sawn off cowboy boots. She wore
little to no makeup and was hardly demure. Her performances
with the Reclines were histrionic and outlandish, with Lange decked
out in her dime store duds, manically running across the
stage and leaping into the air. Her sweat showering her audiences.

(06:59):
Her brand of country was deemed quote pal pump and
appeal to alternative crowds who favored the new wave and
rockabilly scenes. She would dial down the intensity of her
live shows in aesthetic. By the time she put out
shadow Land, her third studio album but first as a

(07:20):
solo artist, she enlisted producer Owen Bradley, a major force
behind the nineteen fifties and sixties Nashville country sound who
worked with the likes of Loretta Lynn, Brenda Lee, Conway Twitty,
and langs Idle Patsy Klein. The album was well received
and hit number nine on Billboard's Top Country Album Charts,
while its song I'm Down to My Last Cigarette became

(07:42):
Lang's first to grace the Top Country Singles chart. After
a period on Johnny Carson's Tonight Show for the fourth
time in a little more than a year and making
a fantastically bizarre cameo on Peewee's Playhouse Christmas special, Please
Google It, the singer went on to bag three Grammy nominations,
two for songs from Shadowland and one for her sterling

(08:03):
duet with Roy Orbison on a remake of his classic
track crying, she walked home with the last award, her
first Grammy win. She also won Best Female Country Vocalist
and Female Vocalists of the Year. The Juno Awards considered
the highest honors in Canada's music industry. But Lang's music
wasn't storming country air waves, and she didn't feel her

(08:24):
first three albums truly expressed her vision. She set out
to capture with her fourth Absolute Torch and Twang, reuniting
with her reclines and bringing in musicians Ben Mink and
Greg Penny to co produce with her. The album earned
her a bigger audience and another Grammy for Best Female
Country vocal Performance. Crowds flocked to her shows, raving about

(08:44):
a sold out performance at New York Speaking Theater during
which the audience cheered Lang into doing five encorees. One
journalist declared quote those who witnessed it were baptized. Katie
is God. But even after all the success in the
U S and Canada, Lange just wasn't getting the radio

(09:05):
place she needed. Furthermore, Nashville's highly influential Country Music Association
never recognized Lang with nominations for any of its general awards.
A CIMA as country music's Grammy and and Now would
have signaled that she had garnered the respect of her
country peers. Some conjecture that her kitchen and over the
top style shows and videos didn't land with country purists,

(09:27):
that they weren't sure if she was serious about the
genre or satirizing it as some sort of comedy routine
or performance art. SHANEA Golden perch Boker as a professor
of music studies at Temple University and the author of
the two thousand twenty two Queer Country, which examines queer
and trans performers in country and Americano music. She's taken
a deep dive into Katie Lang's journey, exploring her offbeat

(09:50):
approach to country and how her wild, outsized persona left
many suspicious, you know, dancing in a kind of like
um exuber in um and very gender non normative um,
almost like so earnest that it was dorky, and people
thought that she was maybe she didn't really love country music.

(10:11):
She was making fun of it, and so journalists from
the time would would challenge her on that, like do
you have an honest relationship to country music? They questioned
her on that, or maybe it was the fact that
she was a woman in a male dominated industry, not
to mention a strong, confident woman who looked like a
man in a male dominated industry. Whatever the reasons, Lang

(10:31):
hadn't elicited the sort of exposure and agilation needed to
propel her to the next level of stardom. By Lange
was exhausted trying to prove herself to Nashville. She was
already on the verge of finally throwing in her cowboy hat,
but her involvement in Peter's Meet Stinks campaign may have
been the nail in the coffin. A passionate vegetarian, Lang
endorsed the animal rights group by appearing in a video

(10:53):
in which she hugged a tan cow named Lulu on
a retirement ranch for aging animals. We all love animals,
but why do we call some pets and some dinner,
she asked in the ad. If you knew how meat
was made, you'd probably lose your lunch. I know, I'm
from cattle country. That's why I became a vegetarian. Meat stinks,
and not just for animals, but for human health and

(11:15):
the environment. After Peter invited Entertainment Tonight to the videos
filming the peg. Being that it was the first ever
vegetarian commercial, it quickly gained attraction. Most publicity it got
was negative. Lank Piste off folks back home, including the
Canadian Cattleman's Association, who railed against her in the press.
Several country radio stations in Nebraska, Kansas, Missouri, Montana, Wyoming,

(11:37):
and her homeland of Alberta banned her music, claiming she
was hurting the livelihood of its listeners. The boycotting took
a nasty turn when the home of Katie Lange, signed
on the edge of Consort, was covered in I Love
Alberta beef stickers and spray painted over with the words
eat Beef dyke, reflecting on the meat Stinks backlash Land

(12:00):
later told Victorious Starr, author of the biography Katie Lange,
all you get is me quote. I think that in
some ways people were waiting for something to attack me on.
I just think God that it was something I truly
believe in. Soon after the Peter debacle, Lang decided she
was done playing the game. She was an androgynous outlaw

(12:20):
who believed in her art, and she had shaken the
Nashville tree as much as she could, says she in
a golden perch Bocker. She realized that she was never
going to make it after that that, you know, those
doors were closed to her. Land had crossed her threshold
of patients. It was time to walk away from country

(12:40):
and explore new horizons. Speculation about lang Sexual orientation had
been swirling for years, but if she had built up
a fervent lesbian fan base flirting with and teasing her audiences,
she'd never come out publicly. When journalist Connie Chung interviewed
her for her See b S show in the fall

(13:01):
of probing her about her gender bending appearance and asking
her about marriage, Lange suavely danced around the topic before
evading it completely with a simple quote, let's change the subject.
But the subject of queer love would be front and
center on Lang's next record. When she set out to
make her pop cross over on Genue, she was heartbroken.

(13:22):
She had fallen for a married woman, but her affection
was not reciprocated. She couldn't dance around that unrequited desire
dominated her thoughts. This woman had blown up her life.
She had to pick up the pieces. Lang couldn't rely
on Patsy Klein mimicry or winking stage antics to communicate
this kind of despair. She had to look inward now

(13:45):
that she had abandoned Nashville. She also knew her next
record was a chance to reset and experiment. If there
were ever time to clean this late it was now.
Lang again called on Ben Mink and Greg Penny to
co produce. Their influences spanned genres and decades. A Genoux
had shades of the polished production of shadow Land, but
it was more than that, evoking not only Patsy Klein,

(14:07):
but Torch singer Julie London, jazz, cabaret, and Moroccan, Middle
Eastern and Eastern European music. Somehow, Lang, Mink and Penny
managed to avoid and everything but the kitchen sink sound.
The word I always use when talking about Angeneus restraint,
Lang's honeyed show stopping vocals and the albums. That eclectic
mix of instruments Mandolin's clarinets, Marimba's physicade violins lent it

(14:31):
an elegant, worldly vibe, but the architects behind it knew
when to trimp. The fact the negative space between these
elements was as important as the music itself. Angeneu breathe
like Lang must have after exercising her demons. While making it,
MinC and Lang referred to angenous quote post nuclear cabaret,

(14:55):
which was essentially an amalgamation of whatever they were listening
to at the time. Mink, for example, it was in
a Klesmer band playing Eastern European music, a big part
of his heritage. Well, they were sifting through his family
photographs for inspiration. One in particular stood out to Lang.
In it Mins parents, who were Holocaust survivors, were shown

(15:15):
celebrating the end of World War Two, surrounded by bottles
of wine and a group of revelers. Ben Mink were
called the significance of the photo. To me, it was
a year after my parents were liberated from the camps
and they're sitting around at a table with their friends,
getting drunk and there's an accordion player, violin player. You know,
it was really inspiration because it was that kind of

(15:37):
Kurt Vile cabaret feeling, and you know, we we talked
about it and said, you know that that's just a
wonderful place to be and whatever happens in your life. Yes,
Andinuine it's lead single Constant Craving, we're about the pain
of unconsummated love, but the music also embodied a larger

(15:57):
theme of the human condition is Mink x planes. It
was about resilience and survival. So I think the album
itself had a very bittersuite quality. You know, even Constant
Craving is really about the struggle and all that. But
you know, hang in there, There's there's another side to it.
We have to keep going, you know. I saw it

(16:20):
in many ways as kind of a reference and a
tribute to what my personal history was. The instrumentation of music,
the sentiment, and Katie had a different take on it,
and the two attitudes blended really really beautifully, and with
a singer like that, you know, how do you lose?

(16:40):
She's one of the great voices of the century. Post
nuclear then was more than a dramatic term for recovering
from heartache. So post nuclear, you know, was really about
I think the idea that everyone interprets the stresses and
the pain they've had. There's a there's a moment of
celebration after that, and it's that feeling where you're still

(17:01):
feeling the pain and the acid and all the horrible stuff.
But you're trumpeting, you know, a forward, positive movement with Antineue.
Lang and her co producers weren't chasing trends. In fact,
Lange wanted to steer clear of what she considered a new,
overproduced sound of music in which the vocals sometimes felt
secondary to the percussion. But going against the grain was audacious,

(17:23):
says Mink. I knew that if it didn't work, my
career as I knew it was pretty much done, you know,
having Torch and Twang as a Grammy album just before,
you know, I think people were listening, and if it bombed,
I was gonna be singled out. Lang too felt exposed

(17:44):
and nervous. She was scared for the follow up. We
were you know, any album is going to be um
nerve wracking for a performer to getting you stick your
neck out. But this was such a risk, you know,
sonically it was like nothing else. We it done and
not like anything else most people have done. Lange had

(18:06):
been living in l a but in the fall and
winter of the crew hunkered down or rented house in
Vancouver to write and record the demos, The track that
would become the album's biggest hip and Lange's calling card,
was its first single, Constant Craving, originally titled Easter Passover
because both holidays follow in the day it was written.

(18:27):
The song distills the spirit of Angenoue into an exquisite
four and a half minute You'd be hard pressed to
me even five pop songs a feature an accordion, but
this one uses the instrument to remarkable haunting effect. It's
the tracks connective tissue. Because of this accordion, the world
seems to stop for me whenever the song comes on

(18:49):
in a car, or in the grocery store, in a
doctor's office. It feels ancient, intrinsic primal, Paired with that
guitar strumming which was just country enough to nod to
Lang's roots, and those slinky vibraphones that the conjure images
of a smokey jazz club and some film noir. It
seems to echo the sentiment of the song, Constant Craving,

(19:12):
like desire. It feels timeless. The Lang originally hated it.
She and Mink wrote the music first, but Lange struggled
to write the lyrics, literally banging her head against a
typewriter for a few days before finally coming up with
the words constant craving. Even then they sounded awkward. She

(19:33):
said that a lot of people thought she was singing
God sent gravy. As Ben Mink explains, she thought the
track sounded two poppy and commercial compared to the rest
of Enu, which was slow burning and moody. But Mink
and Penny believed in constant craving, and we're determined to
make it work. After retracking the guitars in a different
key and ditching a third verse, Langu was struggling to

(19:55):
write for a twinky electric guitar solo. They were able
to persuade the singer to record it. The recording process
was painful for Lang in more ways than one. Not
only did she have to resuscitate and relive her personal anguish,
but she found herself straining to hit the notes, panic
sinking when she realized they may have to scrap the
whole project, that she may have lost her greatest gift.

(20:17):
It turned out that she had an infected tooth pushing
on her you station tube, which affected her hearing and pitch.
Only after having a root canal could she deliver the
goods When Antinu came out in March. Initial reviews were mixed.
Ben Minks still recalls one particularly brutal one. We had
a review in People magazine. It was horrible and it

(20:39):
singled me out. It said, Katie, next time Ben comes
knocking on your door, bar it like, don't let him in.
I mean, you know, you got everyone who you went
to school with reading this article and you're going, how
am I going to live this down? But you know,
it changed, It changed very quickly. There was a lot
of controversy about the record. Is it good or are terrible?

(21:00):
And when that happens, that's a good thing. What you
don't want is complacency. The negative reviews were quickly eclipsed
by the record sales, its lead singles, airplay, and the
accolades that followed. Constant Craving became Lange's biggest hit to date,
reaching number two on the Adult Contemporary chart and number
thirty eight on the Billboard Hot One. The album went

(21:21):
double platinum and in nine earned a Grammy nomination for
Album of the Year. Constant Craving also received nods for
both Song and Record of the Year, and one for
Best Female Vocal Performance. Despite that Adult Contemporary label, the
single also seemed to resonate with a younger audience. Lange
was shocked when it's video, a gorgeous black and white

(21:42):
recreation of the nineteen fifty three Paris premiere of the
Samuel Beckett play Waiting for Godot one Best Female Video
of the MTV Video of Music Awards. This name suggests
On Janu was about going back to basics, employing old
sounds and fresh ways to tell a familiar story Love

(22:02):
Can turn us all into children. Exploring another more vulnerable
side of herself on the album was a dicey enough
move for Lang. But in June of just three months
after the release of Ingenue, just as she was gaining
credibility in the pop landscape, she would take the biggest
risk of her career. She would finally discuss her sexuality publicly.

(22:32):
The Advocate, one of the oldest and most widely circulated
lgbt Q magazines, had been trying to book an interview
with Lang for years, going through her label Sire, which
was part of Warner Brothers, and even through her friends,
but she proved elusive. She knew speaking with the publication
and not addressing her sexuality would be disingenuous, but she
also hadn't been ready to go there when the editors

(22:53):
contacted Sire in the spring of and explained they wanted
Lang to be the cover story for their issue. Unvaluing
the magazine's new redesign, Her PR team seemed interested, but
then gave them the runaround. When they finally got the
call in May, Sire informed the editors they could interview
Lang in the UK, where she was about to launch
the tour for ANU. The magazine tried to secure a

(23:15):
female journalist for the story, thinking languould feel more comfortable
opening up, but no lesbian writers were free to fly
to Europe on such short notice. The editors finally secured
Brendan Lemon, a gay editor of The New Yorker who
would eventually become the editor in chief of Out magazine,
the advocates entertainment focused sister brand. He met Lang in London, where,
to his surprise, she came to pick him up at

(23:36):
his hotel. He was immediately won over by her warmth, candor,
and sense of humor. At a table in a small cafe,
they had lunch, but Lemon wasn't sure he gets to
talk to about her private life until late in the interview.
They discussed her inspiration for the album, her childhood memories,
and the Pita controversy, but then, after Lemon asked her
about making fun of speculations surrounding her sexual orientation on stage,

(23:59):
she finally admit that she didn't want to be out
in a major way. When Lemon asked why not, Lang replied,
because that's not the thing to me. I don't feel
political about my preference. She continued. There should be strong
examples in the subculture, and I think there should be
people fighting for our rights, but I don't feel like

(24:19):
it's my passion. It certainly isn't my cause. She made
it clear that she had never denied or tried to
hide her queerness. Lemon then said, I think the danger
for you is that there's going to be a point
at which you just don't want to hedge anymore, and
you say, let me come out and then go on
with my life as an artist, to which Lang replied, well,

(24:43):
I think I'm at that point. When those words appeared
in print weeks later, Lang became one of the only
openly lesbian celebrities and certainly the most famous lesbian pop singer.
Whether or not she wanted to be an icon or
role model she was now m I asked Lemon why
Katie Lange chose to come out in The Advocate and
not in a television interview like the one she'd done

(25:05):
with Connie Chung three years before. I think k D
felt if she came out in a in a place
like The Advocate, she would be speaking to a readership
that would understand her. I think she had been asked
about it for so long that she finally wanted to
do it and just get it behind her um. At

(25:29):
the same time, I think she did want to do
it in print because it would allow her to talk
with more nuancing complexity about the issues of sexuality, which
would have been much harder for her to do on television,
and to a certain extent, more difficult for her to

(25:51):
do in a large mainstream publication like People, because People
would have put on its cover line, you know, Katie
comes out. The Advocate didn't do that, So I think
Katie realized that she wouldn't be sensationalized if she came
out in The Advocate, but she would feel sensationalized if
she came out in certainly on television and even in

(26:14):
somewhere like People in her Advocate interview, Lang expressed that
was scared her most about coming out publicly was hurting
her mother, but she admitted that she also worried about
saying the wrong things and hurting her culture. Still, she
seemed to recognize that the personal is political, or at
least now, when she looks back, she better understands that

(26:35):
her motives extended beyond her just wanting to put the
rumors to rust and a recent ABC Radio National interview,
Lang said of her coming out quote, it felt like
it was a necessity because homophobia was rampant at that
time to the AIDS crisis, and I felt like a
really personal commitment to the importance of coming out at

(26:56):
that time and giving a voice and a recognizable image
to a call they have been demonized. At that time,
Lang knew what was at stake, her relationships with their family, bandmates, fans, peers,
the recording academy, whatever connection she still had with the
Nashville But she'd reached a crossroads where secrecy no longer
felt like an option. As Brendan Lemon explained, you know,

(27:18):
when Katie is doing this, she's taking a big risk
with her career. She has finally you know, a hit
single with constant Craving off the Angineux album, and she
has finally getting some sales and some attention. Now, most artists,
that's the very moment at that time when they aren't
going to jeopardize that by coming out. Um, that's going

(27:42):
to be the moment where they're not going to do that.
But that was the moment when Katie did do that.
So I think she felt if she were going to
do it, it had to be done with integrity. I
always knew that for her it was the music that
that mattered the most, and that that was why she
was and afraid to come out and endure or to

(28:03):
experience whatever was going to come out as a follow up.
The music was paramount. Lang still had a record and
tour to promote audiences, to enrapture, more songs to write.
So after her big moment, she got back to work
with her token sense of humor. As she teased it
one performance. Now you all know the rumors that have
been circulating in the press, pause, and I have to

(28:26):
say it's true, It's true. I am a love look
Lawrence Welk fan. Meanwhile, many including her producer and former
bandmate Ben mink. I didn't think her revelation was all
that shocking, but it was. Wasn't isn't really a surprise,
you know, at all of it. I mean, who didn't know?

(28:47):
You know, I remember we wanted did this. Uh it's
a very funny story. We did a It was a
private show for Warner Brothers acts and their executives somewhere
and Aerosmith were just doing their comeback and so we
were on this little tiny show where we'd each do
like four songs, and Errol Smith was there, and Katie
was there, and I probably a couple of But afterwards,

(29:08):
you know, um, Steve Tyler has just seen Katie performed
for the first time and he comes over to me.
We're staying outside of the stage and he goes, Man,
she can sing. He goes, you think she'd sing, Dude,
looks like a lady with me. But you know, it
was no secret thing. You saw her and you kind

(29:31):
of knew what was going on, So I guess coming
out it was just an official statement. Coming out officially
changed everything for Lang. She was celebrated but also scrutinized,
suddenly becoming fodder for gossip columnists and tabloids. Was she
dating Liza Minelli or Sandraw Bernhard Prince collaborator Wendy Melvoine,

(29:51):
or tennis player Martina Navatralova or Madonna who one set
of a Lang performance, Elvis is alive and she is
ever beautiful? But that was just chatter. Lang posed, was
Cindy Crawford on that? That maybe fair cover? And racked
up the seals and the trophies At the Grammys. After

(30:15):
winning Best Female vocal Performance, she said to reporters, what
could I possibly do to top this Best Male Vocalist?
Pop's most famous Andrew Gene was still self aware, still
in on the joke, as Lang recalled to The Guardian

(30:38):
in two thousand seventeen. The previous year, there was a
huge backlash when I did a meat Stinks campaign for Peter,
But by the time I came out, I think people
who had exhausted all their anger and hate for me.
When we were nominated for the Grammys, there were religious
groups outside picketing, but it wasn't too bad. Lang would
never have another hit like Constant Craving. She would fade

(31:00):
from the mainstream spotlighters and nineties drew to a close,
partly by choice. Fame was too much for her, a
theme she explored on jan follow up All You Can Eat.
But her albums continue to sell and she remained in
demand musician, recording and touring with Tony Bennett in two
thousand two and winning another Grammy for their collaborative album
A Wonderful World. She sang on Disney's Home and the

(31:22):
Range soundtrack. She performed at the Olympics opening ceremony in two.
Anne was inducted into the Canadian Music Hall of Fame
in two Today, lank cooks practices Buddhism, spends time with
her partner, and lies pretty low. As she told The
Guardian two thousand nineteen, I grew up with the adage
that there is a wealth of purpose and being mysterious,

(31:45):
and I feel like I haven't had the chance to
be mysterious. My sexuality and everything was so much out
in the open and has been for many years. I
feel exhausted by being exposed and it's truly not that interesting.
If laying recently she's taking a break from music that
her days of writing new material may be over. Aina
remains a pop culture touchdown, part of the singer songwriter canon.

(32:08):
Said this co producer Ben Mink, I wouldn't say go
so far as to say it invented UMM a genre.
I think that the genre was kind of there, But
what I think what it did was there was a
certain kind of coffeehouse um jazz cabaret thing that that
sort of fueled artists like um Norah Jones and um Feist.

(32:33):
It definitely created a certain kind of singer songwriter UM
folk jazz style that became acceptable. And though she was
a reluctant hero Land coming out, when she did change
the conversation, other celebrities would follow. Melissa Etheridge, Allen de Generes,

(32:53):
Rosie o'donald in the late will embraced the premiere and
become a hit. Says Brendan Lemon. I think she's definitely
a trailblazer. I think even with all the queerness in
pop music before, she was still one of the very
first people in the media spotlight at a particular moment

(33:18):
who came out. So I think in that sense she's
ners significant. Next up after the break the story of
another pop music trailblazer, one who was ready to discuss

(33:40):
her sexuality out the gate, Sophie B. Hawkins, whose breakthrough
single Damn I wish I was Your Lover became an
inescapable anthem for the love sick and the horny, and who,
like Lange, was a singer songwriter who fought to maintain
her integrity and autonomy and an industry that didn't always
understand her. Sophie B. Hawkins didn't have a conventional adolescence.

(34:12):
She grew up in New York City, where her mother
was a fiction writer and her father was a lawyer.
She attended the Manhattan School of Music, but left to
pursue drumming, moving in with a Nigerian percussionist, Babatunda Latunji,
and a group of musicians when she was fourteen. She
and a Latunji, who was about fifty at the time,
had what she calls an amazing passionate, very difficult, but

(34:33):
very strong relationship until she was twenty. She studied jazz
in African and Brazilian music, learning to play the vibra
phone and marimba's and a cassio keyboard, eventually touring as
a percussionist with Roxy Music's Brian Ferry before she got fired.
She initially aspired to be quote the greatest drummer ever.
She says, but soon concluded she needed another outlet to

(34:54):
express herself, so she took up songwriting. Hawkins recalls finishing
the first version of her night hit Damn I Wish
I was Your lover, when she was in her mid twenties.
She wrote it in the Upper West Side apartment she
grew up in and a three hundred dollar piano she
purchased when she decided to move beyond a career in percussion.

(35:15):
At that point, she was working at coach checks and
as a waitress, sub letting apartments all over Manhattan, and
crashing back at her parents when her leases were up.
She was also acting and doing performance artist spaces like
PSO and singing in gospel choirs in Harlem. Music was
her life, much like how Katie Lang kept her love
interest at the center of Entree was secret. Hawkins won't

(35:38):
reveal the identity of the person who inspired Damn I
Wish I was her lover, but play the song once
and it's obvious she'd fallen hard. I give you something
sweet each time you come inside my jungle book? What
is it just too good? She sings. Don't say you'll stay,
because then you'll go away. M M. When we spoke

(36:03):
about the genesis of the single. She said she knew
she had something almost immediately. I just knew it by
the chords. I knew the minute that my fingers slipped
and I did that chord progression, and it was you
know that sound of the verse, you know, the ad
over G. I thought, oh, this is this is beautiful,

(36:24):
this is big. I don't know how that knew that.
I thought, this is the one I've been waiting for,
and this is scary. I remember looking at the window
of that I said, now here comes the one you've
been waiting for. What are you going to do with it?
She worked on the track for another couple of weeks,
building on it that summer on her aunt's piano and
cape cod writing. It was an active Catharsis. It was

(36:47):
terrifying and liberating. So I was taking the risk of
opening up my heart or pursuing a person and getting
involved in relationships you know in the downtown aren't seeing
that I knew were dangerous and explosive and creative. But

(37:07):
I also knew I had to open up and get
to the to the goods inside of me. Hawkins confirms
the damn I wish I was Your Lover is about
longing and lust, but she hesitates to elaborate on the
story behind it, family alcoholism abuse. She says, it's a
big mix of pain and passion, a tale of breaking
through barriers and finding one's agency. It's core line, free

(37:31):
your mind and you won't feel ashamed. May have been
delivered to an object of desire, but it's just as
much a mantra for anyone coming to terms of their identity,
sexual or otherwise. Hawkins had a very clear idea of
what she wanted for her debut album, Tongues and Tails,
and it hardly fit in with the music dominating air
waves at the time. While making the record, she says

(37:54):
she fought all the time with producer Ralph shuk It,
who tried to stand off the album's edges to achieve
more mainstream sound. Chaka had discovered her seeing the potential
of a tape full of demos she'd given him while
she was working at a coach check, and had her
best interest in mind, knowing what a record label would
want to hear. But she was adam and about keeping

(38:15):
her vision intact, and I thought all the time with Ralph,
but it was a healthy healthy fighting because he insisted
I'd be more pop from more pop rock or this
to that, and I just insisted, no, I'm going to
be like Pink Floyd meets motown meets soul. That's who
I am on gospel soul, Pink Floyd Motown. Well. Luckily,
the album's other producer, Rick Chertoff, who'd produced Cindy Lauper's

(38:37):
debut album, She's So Unusual, shared her vision. He and
Hawkins both wanted lush, dark synthesizers that evoked Pink Floyd's
Wish You Were Here. He liked Hawkins backing vocals and
drum machines. He also brought in drummer and programmer Sandy Marindino,
who folded a sample of the Led Zeppelin's When the
Levee Breaks into the song. The alchemy of that killer ample,

(39:00):
those watery synths, hawkins sensual and love Lauren lyrics and
her intoxicating gravelly vocals, which called to mind Chrissy hind
Stevie Nicks and Rickey Jones, resulted in a worldwide smash

(39:25):
Damn I Wish I Was Your Lover's sword to number
five on the Billboard Hot one charts, with Billboard calling
it quote an unlikely anthem. A review from Entertainment Weekly
read Hawkins says those words as insusuent lee, as if
she'd just broken a nail, but she still lets you
know they mean a hell of a lot more than that.

(39:46):
And People Magazine declared when a record opens with a
song called Damn, I Wish I was your lover, you
realize immediately you're not dealing with some delicate flower. Hawkins
knows what she wants, and she knows how to get it. Okay,
So I was a kid when I first heard the song,
and maybe that's why it sounded like a revolution. But
then again, it was a revolution at least for top

(40:06):
forty radio to hear damn in a chorus, especially such
a big, assertive and sextious chorus like this one, was
a bit shocking. Songs with curse words, even damn, the
most g rated of expletives, didn't exist in pop. And
Hawkins sings it again and again emphatically, the word sticks

(40:27):
out and hook shoe like a nail and a floorboard.
She is also, at one point so bowled over by
her unreciprocated affection that she resorts to the even quainter, dusty,
faux curse word, shucks. It's ridiculous in a very charming
early nineties kind of way. As Hawkins said in an

(40:49):
interview with American Songwriter, I wasn't in any relationship that
was as sophisticated as a song, But I have been
triggered by a lot of emotional events to bring the
song out of me. There are times when you write
a song and you think that it's okay and it's
fun to play, people like it, whatever. But then there
are the times when a song comes out where you

(41:10):
feel like it's almost ugly, it's almost excruciating, the uncomfortable
to listen to, but yet you're compelled. Those are the
good songs. Damn I Wish I was Your Lover is
one of those songs. Awkward yet undeniable, goofy yet nerve tingling,
sort of like the sex Hawkins is chasing after the

(41:32):
sex were all chasing after. However, even more shocking than
hawkins use of Damn is the fact that the song
that most certainly deals with the same sex attraction at
least partly skirted by so many listeners, including me. Well,
she keeps the target of her lust and fascination ambiguous
for most of the track, using you and your she
shifts to the third person in its third verse, offering

(41:55):
the evocative lines I sat on the mountain side with
peace of mind. I a by the ocean, making love
to her with visions clear, walked for days with no
one near. That was some blatantly homerotic stuff and risky
especially then. And yeah, I don't recall any major backlash
or wise cracks. Yeah, I was probably too young and

(42:16):
like many others, distracted by the swearing and those lush
synthesizers to pick up on all the lyrics. But the
song was everywhere. You gotta remember this was when we
had only one openly queer female musician on the airwaves,
The newly out Katie Let Hawkins had her own coming
out that year, but it went down a little differently
than Langs. In April of n right after Damn I

(42:39):
Wish I Was Your Lover was released, and just weeks
before her debut album, Tongues and Tails dropped, she described
herself as omnisexual and a story for The New York Times,
she thinks she actually coined the term, As she explained
during the interview, most songs that are coming out lately
say I'm a man, you're a woman. It's black and white,

(43:00):
but it's so hard to deal with life that way.
There are many things that humans can do to transform themselves,
and sex is one of the biggest things. I learned
all the things I am by being who I wasn't
supposed to be, playing all the roles I wasn't supposed
to play. Before, I allow myself to be manly sexually,
I was embarrassed by being womanly. Now I find it

(43:20):
really fun to be everything. And it depends on who
brings what out of me. I'll say it again, this
was some risky stuff. Hawkins may have had a hit
on her hands, and she'd go on to have a
couple of others with her second album, Whaler, but she
hardly had an easy ride. Her relationship with Sony, who
owned Columbia Records, her label at the time, was tumultuous.

(43:44):
Much like Lang, she was laser focused and unapologetic about
her persona and her artistry. Like Lang, she fought against
the establishment, but because of it, her career took a
beating up. Next, after the Break, we'll hear from Sophie B.

(44:07):
Hawkins herself about her battle to realize her vision, navigate
the music industry, and find her place in the l
g B t Q community. Sophie Bee Hawkins scored a

(44:34):
big hit with the Damn I Wish I Was Your Lover,
a song that would become a nineties radio staple and
queer cannon, but she fought nearly every step of the
way to maintain her voice and autonomy. She fought to
preserve her production choices on her debut album, Tongues and Tales,
resisting suggestions to adhere to traditional pop and rock formulas.
She argued to leave her middle initial in her name

(44:56):
the B is for Balantine, but she joked with the
New York Times quote the B stands for independence. She
pushed to keep damn and the title of her debut
album's lead single. She also urged listeners to reconsider their
preconceived notions of gender and sexuality, name dropping Kate Bourne's
teens seminal queer and transbook Gender Outlaw and Interviews. And finally,

(45:18):
when the original video for Damn I Wish I Was
Your Lover was deemed too racy to air on MTV,
she fought to promote the single by shooting a tamer
and it must be noted less inspired video. I caught
up with Hawkins to discuss the making of Damn I
Wish I Was Your Lover and the aftermath of its release.
So you said that the meaning of Damn I Wish
I Was Your Lover has changed over time. But what

(45:41):
was it about then when it came out about the
feelings in the moment of trying to find words to
describe the feelings I had for this person. Damn I
Wish I Was Your lover? Is true? This person you know,
I'd want you till the day likes. This person is
in a situation. They need help, They need enlightenment, they

(46:04):
need love and warmth. They need to know that I'm
here willing to go to the ends of the earth
of of their inside like the inside journey with them,
and here I am. I'm gonna open up my heart
in I'm just riffling right now. I don't know, but
it was like a really wanting to communicate to this

(46:25):
person how much they got to my inside heart. Here's
my story to prove it was this person a woman.
Even if I tell you the gender, you have to
remember that I'm the one who coined the word omnise sexual,
So the gender is not going to be so material
as we think, and it really is not material. The

(46:49):
older I get, the more I realized that. I mean,
who knows if it was a woman or a man
at this time? Anyway, who knows what they thought they were.
I'm wondering what the reaction was around you to the
song from executives from you know, radio stations and your peers.
Did anyone push back? Were you surprised by the reactions

(47:12):
you received? Yeah? Yeah, people didn't know. Sony had a
lot of people. Sony is a big word for a
lot of different people. But first of all, damn wasn't acceptable.
They did not want me to sing damn. They didn't
want the third verse, you know, we I'm singing about,
you know, making loved her on the ocean. They didn't
want any of that. And Sony was incredibly angry when

(47:33):
I came out and said I was omnisexual. So there
was some fear and everything. And maybe, you know, maybe
for me, I grew up in New York City and
my mother is a writer, and she wrote a very
racy book about two women, So maybe for me it

(47:55):
wasn't such a big deal, whether it was a woman
or a man. But I did notice there was a
lot of constantination, and I think that it was something
that kept people held back from really promoting me to
the held most likely because that was also a common thing,
like why aren't they doing more for you? Why aren't

(48:17):
they putting more money into the next single? And I
think there was totally a backlash in because my performances
were wild. I had such a lot going on on stage.
It was fabulous, and I was I was pro gender Outlaw,
you know Kate Bournstein the book Gender Outline. I was
on pop radio defending trans people and that trans is

(48:42):
completely natural and that we have to start paying attention
to people who feel that they're you know, locked into
the wrong gender. I was. I was out there for
now I might be considered normal, but this was thirty
years ago. I was there saying trans is normal, Being
omnisexual is completely normal. I was a pop star. I

(49:05):
was fighting on every level for every aspect of my
albums and I always have and I always will. And
then if someone said, you know, are you gear straight?
Doesn't matter, We'll put more money into you if you're straight,
I wouldn't even have like honored that. Nobody would have
dared come up to me and said that, So you
weren't asking You weren't asked to to to stay in
the closet. Well, not directly, but I was punished when

(49:29):
I was open. I didn't getting the funds and and
and the exposure. Well, they were angry at me. They
were angry, and they were vocally angry at me. And
they thought I was uncontrollable and wild and I would
say anything. And you know, I probably did say some
stupid things. I know I did, but they weren't about me.
I was almost I don't know. I was in a

(49:52):
state of rebellion because it was very constrictive. The world
was very constrictive, and I wanted to burst open and
help other people. I wanted. I saw the response of
kids at my shows. I saw the response of the
trans community when I would start defending gender outlaw of
the book, and I wanted to defend people and wanted

(50:13):
to protect the kids. I wanted to be out there
and say we are so much more in the majority
than you think. I was so excitedly loving humanity. So
there was something in the ether. And you think you
were part of this, So I'm wondering what do you
think was going on? What do you think was in
the air. Ah, Yes, there was a consciousness shift and

(50:37):
it was built really on the shoulders of all these
other people. And suddenly I guess what they say is
the hundreds of monkey Is that what it is? You
get to a critical mass and things change, and what
it's not without the incredible work and bravery of the
activists who came for you know, years before us, even
hundreds of years. And so I think also when people

(50:59):
were reading in books like Stone Butch Blues and we're
really understanding and you know what happened, how people lived,
I think everyone, all of us, young people, young folks,
we said, wow, are our predecessors have fought so hard
and suffered so much? We have to just be out
and do this. You know. There just comes that point,

(51:21):
isn't it true? And then we had the Reagan era before.
In some ways, it's also like on the one hand,
it's probably this combination of affluent and oppression that makes
the young folks get out and say no more, we're
studying for this, we're putting it in our is a
renaissance of you know whatever. So it's it's um, it's economic,

(51:42):
it's political, and as as you said, when a crisis
of that degree happens, people respond by saying no more.
I mean, you were up against so much with the song,
UN have to fight to keep damning the title. You know,
the initial video for Damn I Wish I Was Your
Lover was rejected by MTV because you were dancing with

(52:04):
the black man in it. And you know, of course,
you know, you you've got this so ambiguous, it's actually
ambiguous song that it could be interpreted, you know, as lesbian, homerotic,
depending on you know, the perspective of the narrator, who
the narrator is. UM. I just feel like you there

(52:24):
was so much pushback from every angle. I think that
whatever the gay mafia was thought I wasn't gay enough,
and I think that that was a UM. Something that
may not have helped me was that I wasn't you know,
when I said omisexual, I wasn't saying lesbian or gay.
And I think that there was a big problem with
that in the gay community because at that time, they

(52:47):
wanted people to come out and say I'm gay or
I'm straight, and they really wanted people who might be gay,
to be gay, and I couldn't in all honestly, I
told you this a little bit of my history. I
was young, I was in my twenties. I had spent
the greater part of my life with this in some
ways amazing man and um have you know, very short

(53:09):
but phenomenally passionate relationships with women. And I couldn't really
know what I was in the song. And this is
what I meant to say, is meant to say, create
your own life, create your own um, your own roadmap.
Don't like. That's why I think I add all the

(53:29):
story in, because when you listen to the story, you
don't go she's one thing or another and she's telling
us to be one thing or another. I think what
I'm saying is, what's your story? This is mine, what's
your story. Yeah, it's interesting. It's almost like the community
was asking you to, you know, decide, like, either you're
with us or you're not with us right now, and
you know, we don't want any gray areas, you know.

(53:52):
I think that was partly because there was such an
urgency because of the AIDS crisis for people to be
out and proud and to fight, you know, for the
rights and I don't think you would have that same
sort of you know, ultimatum today. You could get away
with just saying I'm homnisexual, I don't like labels, I'm
lgbt Q. You know, I think it was different. Then
I think you're right, And I think again, that's the

(54:12):
highly political nature of where we were and it and
it gave some causes fuel because everyone was suddenly so political,
but it gave some it took away some of the nuances.
And I don't think anyone could have ever called me gray.
And I say in the song I'm everything, and tonight
I'll be your mother. So that's not gray. That's really

(54:37):
true as far as I'm concerned. And I also believe
that we're connected on a soul level. We're in these bodies,
but we're not defined by our bodies. I keep trying
to say that. That's why I love the trans movement,
because I'm saying, if someone is saying they're not defined
by what you see, let them say that and let
them define themselves. This is the core of being a

(54:58):
human is as having a soul. I didn't. If you
find out the voice of your soul and you're speaking
the voice of your soul. You're not speaking the voice
of your penis or your vagina hopefully or else if
you are, and it's a boring song. So would you
have done anything differently when this song was blowing up,
and when your career was blowing up, and when you

(55:18):
were becoming musically Musically I've always been true, um, But
definitely as a as a self promoter, I would have
done a ton of things differently. I think the you know,
the the weight of my mistakes was really difficult on
my career and as on me as an artist, and
I just wasn't emotionally developed enough for society in some ways.

(55:43):
I was developed so much in the artistic way and
then this intimate way, but in terms of dealing with people,
I really didn't see and understand a lot and I
made just too many mistakes that were crushing. And if
I had good people around me, that really but you know,
if I had what I have known it I don't know.
That's it's it's all that coming from where I came from,

(56:05):
you know, coming from where I came from, I did amazingly.
It's a it's a miracle. But do I look back
on it and wish that I had other tools, Oh god,
But you know what, I still have me and I'm
still working, and I love my new material and I'm
still look I'm still promoting the old materials. So I
actually have to say, I look at it, but my
glass is pretty full. But yes, I would have saved

(56:29):
myself a lot of suffering if I had had other
if I had had more tools, just simply put. You
think when you say tools, do you mean you know
about her support system or more? Yes, yes, able, yes,
able to find able to believe in myself in that
like it's like I would go very very far, but

(56:50):
it would be that last inch. And I think that
Sony and I don't, and I don't think there's a
person who works at Sony who would have said I
could have done more. They were pretty health label and
they were very hard to deal with and to survive on.
And I eventually laughed. As you know. The last couple

(57:19):
of questions, I wanted to ask you about some of
the lyrics as well, um, because some of them are
really esoteric, just sort of vague. Um O page you
used I think is a good word as well. Um,
this sort of in verse two, you you sing this
monkey can't stand to see you black and blue. I
give you something sweet each time you come inside my
jungle book. What is it just too good? Don't say

(57:42):
you'll stay, because then you go away? What what? What?
What is this? Uh? What's the story with the monkey
and the jungle Book? Well, the monkey is something that
is developing. I can see through my journals. It's sort
of a survival technique. I think in the city and
things that were happening around, and I think that the

(58:04):
the jungle Book is definitely you know, Rogert Kipling Mowgli
that I had this image of myself again. It's sort
of this identity of that's how I will survive, That's
how I will remain pure, remain an untouched, pure child,
regardless of all these things that happen, is that I
will be Mowgli in a jungle book, and I'm inviting
this person to come to my my like my it's

(58:27):
like my least manipulative self, My least manipulative part is
that you can come inside my jungle book where it's
a story and it's safe, and I can talk to
the animals and it's just like this beautiful it's you know,
I wasn't aware of it. This is what really comes
out of me. That's what came out of me, and

(58:50):
people related to it, and I think they related to
it on their child self as well. And that Yeah,
because I also read it as and again open to interpretation,
which we sat all along here. I also read this
very very suggestive, you know, very very suggestive, very essensual sexual,
which certainly fits with what this song is about. And

(59:11):
then I see at the end which I've never heard
this bit, this might be sort of as it starts
to fade out, getting on my camel, going to ride
it uptown. Yeah, it's just, you know, then I was
just singing improvisationally, and I don't know, I think it's

(59:33):
that there must have been something going on in my
head with who I was speaking to, you know, who
I was singing too. And again again it could do
all the political references, you know, what was going on Afghanistan, everything,
just trying to maybe bring in a maybe an more
ancient sense that this is like not in this time,
you know, because I'm getting on my subway than I say,

(59:54):
I'm getting on my camel. It's like, no matter what
time we're in, you know, whether it's four thousand years
ago or thousand usual now I'm still gonna wish I
was your lover. I love how I'm discussing hit Sophie B.

(01:00:14):
Hawkins unintentionally summed up another hit single from that year,
a little song by your queer contemporary Katie Lange called
Constant Craving. That jam also tackled the subject of unrequited romance,
and it also drove home the idea that love and
lust are innate and eternal, the irrefutable part of the
human condition. As Lang sings, always someone marches brave here

(01:00:40):
beneath my skin, and constant craving has always been. And
that regard these songs from albums released within a month
of one another, service companion pieces two tracks became queer anthems,
transcending bigotry and homophobia to make stars of the musicians
behind them. It's impossible to overstate their significance in a

(01:01:03):
year when most queer artists and performers remained firmly in
the closet, some line not only to their fans and
loved ones, but to themselves. In a year when the
AIDS crisis was in full swing, becoming the leading cause
of death among men between the ages of forty four
and casting a shadow over sexual encounters of any kind.
In a year when President George H. W. Bush, in

(01:01:26):
a bid for reelection, toughened his stance on lgbt Q rights,
telling The New York Times that he could not accept
same sex parenting as quote unquote normal. Without trailblazers like
Lang and Hawkins, who dare to speak their truth with
hopes that others would do the same, we'd likely never
have acts like Shannel, Moe st Vincent Kloni, Randy Carlyle,

(01:01:47):
will nas X, Sam Smith, Choice, van Orville Peck, Hailey,
Kiyoko King, Princess. These are just a handful of LGBTQ
musicians who have taken their lead writing about same sex
love and desire, sharing their tells of pain, yearning, confusion,
self acceptance, celebration, and liberation. They too, have forged careers
on their own terms, subverting norms and defying expectations. Like

(01:02:11):
Lang and Hawkins before them, they have freed their minds,
unashamed to step out of the darkness and into the light.

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Where Were You in ninety two was a production of
I Heart Radio. The executive producers are Noel Brown and
Jordan run Todd. The show was researched, written, and hosted
by me Jason Laffier, with editing and sound design by
Michael Alder June. If you like what you heard, please
subscribe and leave us a review. For more podcasts for
My Heart Radio, check out the I heart Radio app,

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Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
H